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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease. How does a woman go

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Speaker 1: from a life of privilege after she inherits wealth and

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Speaker 1: property to being questioned regarding a mushroom lunch?

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Speaker 2: Okay, let that sink him.

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Speaker 1: A woman with vast wealth and property now is being

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Speaker 1: questioned about a mushroom lunch.

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Speaker 2: Mushrooms.

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Speaker 1: I can take him or leave them, don't love them,

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Speaker 1: don't hate him, but I'm looking at them now completely

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Speaker 1: differently after a fatal mushroom lunch. I Nancy Grace, this.

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Speaker 2: Is Crime Stories.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us here at Crime Stories

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Speaker 1: and on Serious XM one eleven.

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Speaker 2: First of all, who is she? Who is the mushroom chef?

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Speaker 2: Listen to this?

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Speaker 3: Aaron and her sisters signed when grow up in the

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Speaker 3: suburbs with their parents, Heather and Aidan Scudder. Her father's

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Speaker 3: a government worker and her mother doctor Heatherscudder, became a

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Speaker 3: university lecturer in nineteenth century literature. As an adult, Aaron

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Speaker 3: Scudder takes an air traffic control course and begins work

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Speaker 3: at a local airport, coworkers saying she's a bit of

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Speaker 3: a genius as an air traffic controller. A few years later,

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Speaker 3: Aaron Mary Simon Patterson, the two met in college and

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Speaker 3: have two children, a son and a daughter. The Pattersons

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Speaker 3: stay married a few years, but differences lead to a divorce.

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Speaker 3: It appears to be an amiable one, appears.

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Speaker 1: To be an amiable one, and in fact, by all

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Speaker 1: accounts it is they co parent the children. A wealthy

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Speaker 1: mother of two, Aaron Patterson led a life of privilege.

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Speaker 2: So how did that take a u turn? And where

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Speaker 2: did all the money come from? Listen?

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Speaker 3: When Aaron Patterson's parents die, she inherits enough money to

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Speaker 3: purchase several local properties outright, with no mortgages to pay.

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Speaker 3: She builds a multimillion dollar property portfolio. The Daily Mail

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Speaker 3: refers to her as a wealthy heiress. The money allows

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Speaker 3: her to live without having to work a steady job

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Speaker 3: and gives her time to be with her two children.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that sounds good to me. Who gets to have

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Speaker 1: all that money and property without working a steady job?

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Speaker 1: I like the part about being with the children all

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Speaker 1: the time. But how is she perceived to be a chef?

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Speaker 1: A mushroom chef? And what happened to that beef Wellington.

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Speaker 1: I've got a lot of questions, and I'm sure so

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Speaker 1: do the police and so do family members of Gil Patterson,

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Speaker 1: Don Patterson, Heather Wilkinson, Ian Patterson and Simon Patterson. I

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Speaker 1: bet they'd like to know all the answers. How did

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Speaker 1: we get that beef Wellington lunch?

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Speaker 2: Listen?

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Speaker 3: Aaron Patterson and her husband Simon are separated but maintain

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Speaker 3: a good relationship. Could there be a reconciliation at hand?

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Speaker 3: Patterson puts together a brunch with her estranged husband, her

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Speaker 3: in laws, her mother in law's sister, and her pastor

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Speaker 3: husband to discuss the relationship. Eric Patterson, according to The

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Speaker 3: Daily Mail, believes the family would side with her in

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Speaker 3: trying to convince Simon to get back together.

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Speaker 1: Okay, joining me an all star panel, including a mycologist,

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Speaker 1: the author of Fungi Pedia, a brief compendium of mushroom

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Speaker 1: lare You can find him at Lawrencemilman dot com. But

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Speaker 1: first to Ash Short, senior editor the Daily Wire, Ash,

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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us absolutely, Ash, question, I

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Speaker 1: want to hear about Aaron Patterson. I want to hear

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Speaker 1: who is she, what kind of chef is she? Why

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Speaker 1: the interest in mushrooms?

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Speaker 2: And who's dad?

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Speaker 4: Well, Aaron Patterson, I mean apparently she regularly cooked and

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Speaker 4: you know, if you're making beef wellington, I mean, that's

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Speaker 4: not exactly an easy ditch, so you know she had

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Speaker 4: to have had some experience making.

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Speaker 1: That well hold on, as short, there's always a first time.

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Speaker 1: My husband gave me, at my request by me, the

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Speaker 1: entire Julie Child cookbook collection, and I bravely waded into it.

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Speaker 1: I started with cocoa vance. So there's a first time

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Speaker 1: for everything, whether you're good at it or not.

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Speaker 2: Okay, go ahead.

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Speaker 4: So maybe this was her first time. I mean I

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Speaker 4: would assume that she had, you know, made this before.

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Speaker 4: If you're going to try and make this dinner or

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Speaker 4: this lunch for people that you're trying to reconcile with

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Speaker 4: their son, you know, I wouldn't use that for the

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Speaker 4: time to experiment in days three people. That means Aaron

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Speaker 4: Peter Patterson's ex in laws, Gail and Gon died along

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Speaker 4: with Gail's sister Heather. They died, and then I in

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Speaker 4: the aunt in law's husband. He was released some weeks later,

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Speaker 4: finally recovering enough to be released from the hospital.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand something ashshort Daily wire dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Aaron Patterson wanted to get back with Simon now you

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Speaker 1: know it's sirius when you call the preacher and you

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Speaker 1: get the enlist the preacher to try to work reconciliation.

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Speaker 1: So the whole family, all of the in laws, the sister,

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Speaker 1: the love object, her ex husband, and the preacher. Everybody's

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Speaker 1: going to get together and they're all over for lunch.

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Speaker 1: So as short the husband, and this is all to

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Speaker 1: get him back on board with reconciliation.

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Speaker 4: The husband can't make it, right, he backed out at

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Speaker 4: the last minute.

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Speaker 2: Oh wait, that's a big difference, and can't make it

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Speaker 2: and was a no show? Backed out? So which one

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Speaker 2: is it?

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Speaker 1: Did he just say yeah, I'm not going or did

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Speaker 1: something happen and he could not make it?

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Speaker 4: Something happened and he couldn't he backed out at the

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Speaker 4: last minute. Okay, I'm not exactly sure what it is.

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Speaker 1: Okay, does anybody on the panel actually know what a

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Speaker 1: beef Wellington is?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've got to go to Lawrence Milman on this,

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Speaker 1: my cologist Lawrence Milman, author of funny Pedia, a brief

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Speaker 1: compendium of mushroom lore.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how brief it is, Lawrence. What's a

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Speaker 2: beef Willington? You do have to have mushrooms.

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Speaker 5: Well, I'm an authority on mushrooms, but not on beef Wellington's.

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Speaker 2: So you've just lost all credibility.

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Speaker 1: Milman, I'm sorry if you don't know about every mushrooms.

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Speaker 5: Sure there's no mushroom named beef.

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Speaker 1: Well I love beef Wellington. Was that Robin Drake? Okay,

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Speaker 1: you're now the Wellington expert? Drake, you're in middling. You're

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Speaker 1: out with me? Is Robin Drake joining us?

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Speaker 4: Robin is so I'm a good company.

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Speaker 1: Behavior expert. Former FBI special agent. Now listen to this

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Speaker 1: chief of the FBI counter Intelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. As

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Speaker 1: much as I scream how much I hate the Feds,

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Speaker 1: even though I was a FED for three years, they

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Speaker 1: are incredible at the Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: He's author of Sizing People Up, a veteran FBI agent's

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Speaker 1: manual for behavior prediction, and you can find them at

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Speaker 1: peopleformula dot com.

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Speaker 2: Robin Drake, I believe.

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Speaker 1: In addition to all that, that was you claiming you

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Speaker 1: like beef Wellington.

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Speaker 2: You want to describe what it is or do I

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Speaker 2: have to tell it?

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Speaker 6: So I'll do the best I can because I'm not

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Speaker 6: a foody connoisseur. But yes, every holiday at our house

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Speaker 6: we have beef Wellington and it is a beautiful tender

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Speaker 6: beef that is in a pastry and wrapped in that

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Speaker 6: pastry is basically some sort of mushroom compote that goes

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Speaker 6: around it. So it's it's a mushroom glaze that is

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Speaker 6: wrapped around that beef and then the pastry is around

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Speaker 6: it and then baked, so that's what it is. So yeah,

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Speaker 6: mushrooms are heavily involved.

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Speaker 1: My husband definitely knows the way to my heart is

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Speaker 1: through my stomach. Okay, if you and he actually took

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Speaker 1: me out for beef Wellington and it's I never made

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Speaker 1: it myself, and I love to cook, but it's, as

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Speaker 1: you said, a very tender piece of beef. Like it's

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Speaker 1: nice and crispy on the outside of the beef. On

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Speaker 1: the inside it's just barely pink. And then around that

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Speaker 1: is this fla key like a cry It's not croissant,

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Speaker 1: but it's croissant like all the way around it.

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Speaker 2: The beef is encased in this.

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Speaker 1: Croissant type outer covering and also in there are these

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Speaker 1: really tender mushrooms. As he said, I like a compote

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Speaker 1: and it's amazing. I've never even tried cocoven. Yes, beef Wellington. No,

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Speaker 1: I was not that adventurous. So my point is, and

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Speaker 1: this is where the shrink comes in Crime Stories with

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Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, Doctor Michelle Joy is with me forensic clinical

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Speaker 1: academic psychiatrist, author of an illustrated history of the insanity defense.

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Speaker 2: Now see, I would love to read that whole thing.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to I am going to finish it and

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Speaker 1: illustrated history of the insanity defense that could really help

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Speaker 1: me in corp. You can find doctor Joy at West

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Speaker 1: Philly Morbid Art. Doctor Michelle, thank you for being with us.

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Speaker 1: If you want to impress somebody and you have them

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Speaker 1: over for dinner, if you have the wherewithal, this is

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Speaker 1: the thing to cook, right. My question to you is

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Speaker 1: not about the foodie aspect of this, but the psychological implication.

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Speaker 1: You're trying to get back with your ex. You want

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Speaker 1: a reconciliation. You enlist the preacher to speak to the family.

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Speaker 1: You get the in laws and I mean the mother

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Speaker 1: in law, the father in law, you got the sister,

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Speaker 1: the brother, all everybody's in laws coming to your place,

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Speaker 1: and of course shocker, the ex can't make it at

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Speaker 1: the last minute.

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Speaker 7: Great, I mean, that's a lot of effort, a lot

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Speaker 7: of effort. It seems like that she was putting into this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, forget about the sides. You can't just have it,

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Speaker 1: which you got to.

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Speaker 2: Have the salt and the greens and the blah blah blah, Okay.

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Speaker 7: Go ahead, exactly exactly. I mean just the effort that's

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Speaker 7: put into this, not only the cooking rate, you know,

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Speaker 7: the shopping whatever is kind of going into it, but

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Speaker 7: coordinating this, inviting all of the people. I mean, this

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Speaker 7: that's consistent with really wanting to reconcile, right that it's

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Speaker 7: it's in line with what she's saying that she wants

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Speaker 7: to do those behaviors. But I do imagine that there

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Speaker 7: was a sense of rejection from however, it was communicated

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Speaker 7: that her ex did not want to come, could not one,

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Speaker 7: could not come right kind of at the last minute,

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Speaker 7: and I imagine there was a big sense of kind

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Speaker 7: of rejection and feeling unwanted associated with not showing.

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Speaker 1: What do you make the herculean effort lessen Tonight is

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Speaker 1: my mother's ninety second birthday. You know how long I've

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Speaker 1: been working on supper two days, I'm making her her

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Speaker 1: favorite cubed steak. Why cubed because it's easier for her

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Speaker 1: to chew, and she needs the red meat for her

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Speaker 1: iron and her kidney.

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Speaker 2: And I can't even remember.

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Speaker 1: What else with sweet vidalia onions at a special brown

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Speaker 1: gravy I make, plus her favorite tender fresh green beans, okay,

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Speaker 1: And I picked that for her, and I've been working

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Speaker 1: on it now seriously, today's day three, okay, because I

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Speaker 1: love her and I want it to be special and wonderful.

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Speaker 1: So if I've been working on this for three days,

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Speaker 1: how long did she work on.

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Speaker 2: A beef Wellington?

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Speaker 1: Some of us had to look it up on Google

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Speaker 1: to make sure we even knew what it was. Explain

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Speaker 1: what that means, doctor, And a lot of guys won't

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Speaker 1: get this. Sorry, guys, Yes, I stereotyped to you, But

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Speaker 1: I'm telling you it's an effort of love, is what

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Speaker 1: it is, doctor.

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Speaker 7: Joyce, Exactly. That's always going to say. The act itself

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Speaker 7: is Prepper is an active nurturing and kind of caring.

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Speaker 7: Food is a nurturing thing. That's how we think of

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Speaker 7: it in that act as an active love and nurturing

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Speaker 7: to spend so much time preparing a meal for someone.

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Speaker 1: Lawrence Milman joining me out of Cambridge, a mycologist, author

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Speaker 1: of Fungi Pedia. I've said this a couple of times,

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Speaker 1: but I love this Fungi Pedia, a brief compendium of

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Speaker 1: mushroom lore, Lawrence. Many people wrongly assume that if you

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Speaker 1: cook mushrooms you cook out the poison. For instance, people say,

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Speaker 1: don't wash your chicken. It just spreads the germs all

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Speaker 1: over the sink area, and when you cook it, it's

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Speaker 1: going to cook away the germs. Okay, that might be true,

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Speaker 1: but not necessarily with mushrooms. Unlike mushrooms, chicken are not

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Speaker 1: inherently poisonous.

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Speaker 2: So how does that work?

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Speaker 1: You cook the mushroom that doesn't remove any poisonous aspect.

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Speaker 5: Well, it doesn't at all, and with respect to the

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Speaker 5: truly toxic mushrooms, and of course there are different types

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Speaker 5: of poisonous mushrooms.

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Speaker 1: Okay, way, Lawrence Millman, I got to get comfy because

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Speaker 1: I can tell this is going to be good.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, start over, go ahead.

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Speaker 1: I can't I want to hear everything about poisonous meassuroom.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Well, there's some that cause a gastro intrological problems.

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Speaker 5: So it's a stomach upset, you know, opens the sluices

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Speaker 5: at both ends, if you follow me, Yeah, so on,

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Speaker 5: and there are very few.

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Speaker 2: You don't want anything coming out in the wrong.

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Speaker 5: End, Go ahead, well, right, But I mean the most

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Speaker 5: of the poisonous ones and are are you know, stomach upset, vomiting,

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Speaker 5: et cetera.

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Speaker 2: But there are say it, diarrhea. We say a lot

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Speaker 2: worse on crime stories.

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Speaker 5: Diarrhea. Know that that's modest, modest, modest, modest. There are

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Speaker 5: a very few that go to the kidneys and the liver,

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Speaker 5: and I believe we may be talking about one of.

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Speaker 2: Those old on just a moment.

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Speaker 1: When I hear poisonous mushrooms, I assume you're.

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Speaker 2: Going to die.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely not. No, they're poisonous the word, you know, no,

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Speaker 5: Please let me educate you, please do After all, I'm

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Speaker 5: a doctor.

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Speaker 8: You know.

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Speaker 2: I felt like saying, doctor Milman.

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Speaker 5: But yeah, that's fine. But I mean the great majority

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Speaker 5: of the ones that are poisonous, and there's only a

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Speaker 5: small portion. There're more poisonous plants percentage wise than poisonous.

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Speaker 2: Mushrooms, but we don't know out And she on a plant.

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Speaker 1: I would know more go outside and she on a

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Speaker 1: pine straw than the man in the moon. But mushrooms,

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Speaker 1: you know, that's you know, open, I will eat it.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's true, But this goes back a long time.

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Speaker 5: It's called michaelphobia. It's a phobic reaction toward mushrooms the

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Speaker 5: same people have people have public reaction to snakes and spiders.

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Speaker 5: This isn't that realm I never heard this.

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Speaker 1: Wait a minute, well, doctor Michelle Joy, you better look

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Speaker 1: this up really quickly. If you don't already know about it.

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Speaker 1: I've never heard of it. There is a mushroom phobia.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, phobia. It goes back a long long time. In

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Speaker 5: the Middle Ages, people thought that mushrooms were all toxic

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Speaker 5: because toads sat on them and the parted their venom

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Speaker 5: to the mushrooms, and that's why they were called toadstools.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I've never known that. Go ahead, now you do.

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Speaker 2: I do, yes, But I want.

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Speaker 1: To hear some more about this is look and all

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Speaker 1: the homicides. I have prosecuted, all the egg asaults. I've

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Speaker 1: never had a mushroom poisoning Joe Scott Morgan, have you?

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Speaker 9: Yeah, I have never ever and I've worked a number

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Speaker 9: of cases involving poisonous agents, but never a mushroom poisoning case.

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Speaker 1: So I am completely all ears. Okay, hold on, Jackie's

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Speaker 1: holding up that my co phobia. Okay, go ahead.

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Speaker 5: Yes, there are many many mushroom poisoning mystery, especially English

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Speaker 5: mysteries where a victim is poisoned uh special purposely by

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Speaker 5: a mushroms.

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Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, you said mysteries. You mean real mysteries.

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Speaker 1: Are you on britt Box?

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Speaker 6: No?

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Speaker 5: No, no, I mean murder mysteries by yeah, by my

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Speaker 5: English murder mystery writers. But in reality, for cure, uh,

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Speaker 5: it's out common. It's not common at all. Accidental poisonings, yes,

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Speaker 5: but not purposeal ones. Not very cool.

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Speaker 1: I mean, if you watch a britt Box I'm talking

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Speaker 1: you know, oh gosh, of course Agatha Christie, you know

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Speaker 1: anything by her, which of course includes air Que Parrot

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Speaker 1: and Miss Marple. And or you could go with Father Brown,

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Speaker 1: you could go with Sister Boniface, you could go with

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Speaker 1: Midsummer mystery mysteries. There's just so many directions to go

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Speaker 1: on britt Box. And yes, they love a good mushroom poisoning.

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Speaker 1: But you're saying that that doesn't happen that often to

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Speaker 1: the point that you die, not that often.

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Speaker 5: You know, if you want to get rid of a person,

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Speaker 5: you know, cooking mushrooms, picking the right mushroom and do so,

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Speaker 5: it's a lot more complicated than other more simple ways

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Speaker 5: of disposing of the person, you know, with an eye,

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Speaker 5: a gun, or a club, I mean with a mushroom.

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Speaker 5: And also the other thing is that often you know

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Speaker 5: it doesn't work because the person will triumph overt and

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Speaker 5: each there might be two same mushrooms right next to

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Speaker 5: each other, same species, but they will have different amounts

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Speaker 5: of the talks, and so one person might die from

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Speaker 5: eating it, and the next person who eats the other

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Speaker 5: one might just have a bad stomach ache.

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Speaker 2: Time stories with me. It's a grace.

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Speaker 1: Doctor LAWRENS. Millman is speaking with us from Cambridge. Doctor Milman,

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Speaker 1: you stated that most often a mushroom poisoning, in your words,

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Speaker 1: would simply result in vomiting, nausea or diarrhea. Yes, that

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Speaker 1: is very rare that the person actually dies, Is that correct?

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Speaker 5: It's very rare. They're there and a point when I'm

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Speaker 5: talking about a poisoning, I'm talking mostly I'm talking accidental

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Speaker 5: poisonings and most ninety nine percent of the time, sometimes

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Speaker 5: idiosyncratic reactions to a mushroom, vomiting diarrhea, et cetera. But

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Speaker 5: they're only The point is this, There are only a

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Speaker 5: very few mushrooms that go farther and can work as

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Speaker 5: murderers themselves. Not many, you have to know, and people,

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Speaker 5: you know, most people who make mistakes vomiting diarrhea. You know,

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Speaker 5: there's there's the very few that have caused deaths.

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Speaker 1: Well you said very rarely the mushrooms cause a death, Well,

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Speaker 1: how about three deaths? Take a listen to our cut

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Speaker 1: eight crime online.

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Speaker 3: Aaron Patterson prepares the family meal, a hearty beef wellington

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Speaker 3: garnished with mushrooms. The two children eat something completely different

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Speaker 3: Simon Patterson's parents, Gail Patterson her husband Don, both get

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Speaker 3: violently ill within a day of eating the wellington. Gail

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Speaker 3: Patterson's sister, Heather Wilkinson, and her husband Ian Wilkinson all

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Speaker 3: get sick and have to go to the hospital the

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Speaker 3: next day. All three died a few days later. Pastor

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Speaker 3: Ian Wilkinson survives the meal, but remains in the hospital

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Speaker 3: in critical condition, awaiting a lite liver transplant.

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Speaker 1: A liver transplant. Okay, I'm worried about his liver transplant.

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Speaker 1: What about the three dead people? Ash sure joining me,

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Speaker 1: senior editor the Daily Wire.

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Speaker 2: Three dead and one needs a liver transplant, right?

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Speaker 4: I mean that would have to be the kind of

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Speaker 4: dangerous mushrooms that we heard about earlier, one of the

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Speaker 4: few they did find some death cap mushrooms in the

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Speaker 4: in those who had died. Now, there's some issues with

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Speaker 4: that that they're normally found in autumn, and this lunch

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Speaker 4: was in winter, so you know, it wouldn't be as

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Speaker 4: though she could just walk outside and find them, you know,

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Speaker 4: just around. So either she would have had to have

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Speaker 4: collected them and planned this whole thing, or it was

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Speaker 4: some sort of accident. She said she got the mushrooms

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Speaker 4: from two different grocery stores, one of which was an

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Speaker 4: Asian grocery store.

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Speaker 2: Okay, wait a minute. My son is an Asian chef.

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Speaker 2: Believe it or not.

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Speaker 1: He loves cooking and eating Asian food. We go very

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Speaker 1: often into the Asian supermarket and I don't even know

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Speaker 1: what all that is, but you're right, some of the

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Speaker 1: things he picks out, I don't even know.

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Speaker 2: What it is it looks all dried up.

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Speaker 1: But it tastes wonderful, and you're telling me as Short

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Speaker 1: she went to two stores, including an Asian grocery, to

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Speaker 1: get the mushrooms.

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Speaker 4: That's what she ended up telling police. The grocery store

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Speaker 4: and others in the area completely denied selling any kind

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Speaker 4: of dangerous mushrooms and there were no recalls and no

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Speaker 4: issues found in the days after this.

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Speaker 1: But this is the only meal that all of these

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Speaker 1: people enjoyed together, So that's got to be the source.

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Speaker 2: Is that meal.

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Speaker 1: They all went their separate ways, that's the common link.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan joining me. Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and

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Speaker 1: host of a hit series Body Bags at Joe Scott Morgan.

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott, thank you for being with us. Joe Scott,

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Speaker 1: we were speaking with as Short from Deally Wire. Just

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Speaker 1: then I kind of glazed over when she said deathcat

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Speaker 1: mushrooms were found in the victims. Okay, hold on right there.

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Speaker 1: Could you described to me the autopsy procedure where you

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Speaker 1: actually look at the food the victim has in their

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Speaker 1: stomach and why you do it.

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Speaker 2: It's very often critical.

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Speaker 9: It's critical in the sense that when we're trying to

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Speaker 9: determine what's referred to as post mortem interval relative to

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Speaker 9: digestion nancy, the human body moves at a relatively predictable pace.

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Speaker 9: Some of that is influenced, certainly by in individuals on physioglogy,

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Speaker 9: if they have some kind of disease process that's going on,

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Speaker 9: you know, some kind of gastro gastric problem that might

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Speaker 9: inhibit their ability to process food. But most people are

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Speaker 9: going to process food at a specific rate. So you're

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Speaker 9: going to go first into the stomach uh and open

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Speaker 9: the stomach, which we do in every autopsy, and check

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Speaker 9: check the contents, and we'll collect the samples. Actually, it's

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Speaker 9: kind of fascinating. People might not realize this, but at

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Speaker 9: autopsy UH many times, particularly when it comes to vegetable matter,

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Speaker 9: we can visually or grossly identify certain items that are

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Speaker 9: still contained in the stomach at that point in time,

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Speaker 9: like green leafy vegetables, that sort of thing. I've actually

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Speaker 9: seen mushrooms in gastric content before, and so we would

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Speaker 9: collect those to do analysis. From that perspective, I recall.

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Speaker 1: A case where a victim had eaten a dessert and

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Speaker 1: you know how some people people will actually eat the

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Speaker 1: edible gold actual goal.

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Speaker 2: Something seems very wrong about that to me.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, that was still in the stomach and they

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Speaker 1: could identify, you know, started basically building a timeline based

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Speaker 1: on that, and as Joe Scott Morgan, who is an

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Speaker 1: esteem professor of forensics and they're a criminal procedure a

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Speaker 1: criminal justice program at Jacksonal State University is amazing. In fact,

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Speaker 1: you and I did a re enactment there of the

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Speaker 1: Ellen Greenberg murder. As I say suicide, as they say,

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Speaker 1: I want to go to doctor Lawrence Milman. Doctor Milman,

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Speaker 1: I understand you have a point you want to make,

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Speaker 1: please jump in.

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Speaker 5: Well, the point is this that in the US, a

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Speaker 5: goodly percentage of people who die from eating deathcap mushrooms

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Speaker 5: are Asian and it's because the death cap looks like

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Speaker 5: a mushroom that grows in Southeast Asia and is found

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Speaker 5: at markets. I would say well over two thirds per year,

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Speaker 5: and there's no more than a dozen or so a

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Speaker 5: year deaths from eating this death.

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Speaker 2: Cap in the US.

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Speaker 1: There's a dozen deaths from eating death cap. First of all,

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Speaker 1: a mushroom named death cap mushroom. Why would you eat that?

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Speaker 2: Number one? Why would you even?

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Speaker 5: They wouldn't know because they're mistaking it for a mushroom

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Speaker 5: that grows, that's edible that grows in Asia, in Southeast Asia.

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Speaker 5: They're making a mistake. Now, can you imagine are.

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Speaker 1: You referring to the Amanita philodus amanita filoides?

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Speaker 5: Very good?

436
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: I've been waiting all day to say that as soon

437
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: as you came on winging, thank you, Okay.

438
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:08,240
Speaker 5: Go ahead, Yeah, So one can perhaps imagine a similar

439
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:15,120
Speaker 5: mistake made once in one Asian market where the specimens

440
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,000
Speaker 5: are collected. Oh, this looks like an edible. We find

441
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 5: it at home, but it's not home, and they sell it,

442
00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:25,560
Speaker 5: or they dry it and sell it, because a lot

443
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,480
Speaker 5: of mushrooms that are sold are initially dried and then

444
00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 5: sold people rehydrate them.

445
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: Okay, hold on.

446
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:38,439
Speaker 1: As much as it pains me to say this, a

447
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 1: defense for her is forming in my head based on

448
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: what doctor Lawrence Millman, who is an expert in the

449
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:53,600
Speaker 1: study a fun guy mushrooms. James Shelnutt, a high profile

450
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,199
Speaker 1: lawyer joining us out of Alabama twenty seven years on

451
00:27:58,320 --> 00:28:02,479
Speaker 1: Big City Metro Area major case. Former Swat now the

452
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:07,080
Speaker 1: head of the shell nut firm the Death Cap Mushroom.

453
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: I innocently was describing shopping in the Asian market with

454
00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: my son, And we've done it all, you know, tried

455
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: to make our own sushi, make our own mochi, whatever

456
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: it is, we've made it or tried to make it,

457
00:28:22,800 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 1: and we've eaten it all. And when I go with him,

458
00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 1: a lot of the things he picks out, I don't

459
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: even know what they are. They're shriveled up brown pieces

460
00:28:31,560 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: of something, but once you cook them, they're delicious.

461
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 2: And now I'm hearing doctor Melman state that the death

462
00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: Cap has a look alike.

463
00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: In Asia, and that market sometimes think that's what they're getting,

464
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,000
Speaker 1: and they get the death Cap. What if and I'm

465
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: certainly not saying this is true, but what if she

466
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: goes in, I mean, is it a stretch to believe

467
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: she wanted to kill the whole family After she's met

468
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: with the preacher to try to engineer a reconciliation. Did

469
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: she go into an Asian market not really understand what

470
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: she was getting, trying to.

471
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: She gets the look a lot, but it's a death cap.

472
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 10: Oh, it's very ironic but not surprising that you make

473
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 10: that statement, because as both of us who have prosecuted

474
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:25,440
Speaker 10: cases and put the back eyes in jail and back

475
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 10: women in jail, you know, you have to think like

476
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 10: a defense lawyer is going to think, well, that's.

477
00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:32,600
Speaker 1: How you win your case. You shoot down their defense

478
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: before they can raise it.

479
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 2: I mean, what if she.

480
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: Thought she was getting a puff ball or a patty straw?

481
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 2: Those are two impostors of the death cap.

482
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,840
Speaker 10: Oh, I think, I think it's it's absolutely a possibility

483
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:46,080
Speaker 10: and that is going to be a defense.

484
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: But do we believe it?

485
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 10: After I after we after I knew we're going to

486
00:29:49,080 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 10: cover this case. I've did a little bit of research

487
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,000
Speaker 10: on mushrooms and don't I don't have the knowledge that

488
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 10: the doctor has, but I will tell you also looked

489
00:29:55,720 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 10: and those types of mushrooms are also indigenous to Australia

490
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 10: that were first identified in Australia in the sixties. They

491
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,000
Speaker 10: are indigenous there, and not to take a right hand turn,

492
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 10: but I'd be very interested to know.

493
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,000
Speaker 1: So back to doctor Lawrence Millman, I just threw out

494
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 1: a little mushroom knowledge about.

495
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: The puffball or the patty straw.

496
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: But I'm just wondering, is that the mushroom to which

497
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,480
Speaker 1: you're referring that is a lookalike or are there more?

498
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 5: There are several others. No, there are various wild mushrooms

499
00:30:28,920 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 5: that show up in markets in Asia that look alike.

500
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 5: Now to me, I'm knowledgeable, it wouldn't be a look alike.

501
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 5: But to someone who was just interested in edibles and dining,

502
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 5: but think, oh, this is exactly like it, and they

503
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 5: won't know anything more and they'll buy it, and it

504
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 5: could be a problem. And also for a market. I mean,

505
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 5: i'd say extremely uncommon for one of these in the market.

506
00:30:56,600 --> 00:31:01,040
Speaker 5: But let's say someone goes out and collect thanks, oh

507
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:05,040
Speaker 5: this is just like our wonderful mushroom at home in

508
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 5: Laos and brings it to their own market, thinking that

509
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 5: they're going to delight their customers with it. But delight

510
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:17,880
Speaker 5: isn't going to be the right word in the end.

511
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: Wouldn't it be illegal for a market or supermarket sell

512
00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: deathcap mushrooms?

513
00:31:22,760 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 5: No? No, they're not knowing that they're deathcap. They're picking

514
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 5: something and selling them that looks like just as the

515
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 5: folks you know in the US, they they the one

516
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 5: to die from this mushroom. Large percentage of them are

517
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 5: from Asia because they've mistaken it. So would perhaps perhaps

518
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 5: is the keyword a person who's selling them at a market. Oh,

519
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,080
Speaker 5: this looks like this is exactly the mushroom we have

520
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 5: at home. It's so tasty. Will sell it as a

521
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 5: tasty mushroom?

522
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 4: Can I just step in for a minute?

523
00:31:58,200 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: Yes?

524
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: Is this Ash or doctor Joy visit Ash ash Hey

525
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:03,400
Speaker 1: and Ash? I want to follow up for Ilow's that thought,

526
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: especially if the mushrooms are dried. For me anyway, it's

527
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: a lot more difficult to tell what the hey they

528
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:10,520
Speaker 1: are when they're dried.

529
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 2: Okay, jump in ass short.

530
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 4: So we have been talking about Asian grocers, and while

531
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 4: it is a possibility, the Asian grocers in the area

532
00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 4: where Aaron Patterson lived rejected her claims and there were

533
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 4: never any health warning or product recalls issued in relation

534
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 4: to her lunch. So I just want to put the counterpoint.

535
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:32,160
Speaker 6: Yeah out there.

536
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 1: My question would be if they did have a deathcat mushroom, Well,

537
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,000
Speaker 1: first of all, did she even go to those grocery stores?

538
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 4: Do?

539
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,600
Speaker 1: Can we confirm that that's her story? Why would I

540
00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: believe her? Is there a surveillance video is there a receipt,

541
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: Is there anything to show she really did do that?

542
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 4: And that's the problem in this case is because the

543
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 4: police aren't They're saying they're looking into this.

544
00:32:57,240 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 8: They've collected a food dehydrator as if she had collected

545
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:04,480
Speaker 8: these mushrooms back in August when they were autumn, when

546
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 8: they were in season, and dried them out to be

547
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 8: used later.

548
00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 4: But they sent that out for testing. We don't know

549
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 4: the results of that testing. So we have all of

550
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 4: these police kind of staying things without anything.

551
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: It's like a lot of loose ins nantic right, yes,

552
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: jump into Scott.

553
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 9: Yeah, hey, look, I got to tell you if it

554
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:29,920
Speaker 9: from an investigative standpoint, Uh, if it were me and

555
00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:32,880
Speaker 9: I was heading up the investigation, I would I would

556
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 9: seek out, uh, individuals that rank with doctor Milman and

557
00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 9: in this particular area of the world, this geography, and

558
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 9: and ask them, listen, where do where's where is our

559
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 9: largest concentration of this population? Where where them is commonly found?

560
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 9: And take me to this location. And let's let's begin

561
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 9: to look at this from the perspective of a true investigation,

562
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:03,200
Speaker 9: where you're you've got the alleged perpetrator here, that's kind

563
00:34:03,200 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 9: of concentrically located. Does this individual have access and opportunity?

564
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 9: Does she have knowledge of this?

565
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,160
Speaker 1: Well, there's something else to Scott, there's something else. Take

566
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,400
Speaker 1: a listener or cut seven Sidney Sumner Crime Online.

567
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 3: Well, Aaron Patterson hopes the family dinner will convince her

568
00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,880
Speaker 3: ex husband to give their marriage another try. The family

569
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:26,279
Speaker 3: has something else in mind. Simon Patterson cancels at the

570
00:34:26,360 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 3: last minute. The Daily Mail reports Aaron Patterson is wrong

571
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 3: in thinking she has the support of the Patterson family.

572
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,799
Speaker 3: The family reportedly thinks there's something off about Aaron and

573
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: they don't think it's wise for Simon to reunite with her.

574
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 3: A family friend says, this wasn't lunch. It was an

575
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,719
Speaker 3: intervention with the pastor Ian Wilkinson as mediator. Simon is

576
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:47,280
Speaker 3: not interested in getting back together.

577
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: Okay, that changes everything for me because now we know

578
00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: the family did not want the reconciliation. She had to

579
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: know that he the law object the HU, but the

580
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: father of her children did not want a reconciliation.

581
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: And I'm just wondering why they went through with it.

582
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: That changes the entire dynamic. Doctor Michelle Joy.

583
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 7: Right, That's exactly what I was thinking, But as one

584
00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 7: of the other guests was saying, did she know it

585
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 7: and when did she find out? I mean, given this

586
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 7: context of how long this meal takes to prepare, I mean,

587
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:27,520
Speaker 7: we're these ongoing conversations he canceled at the last minute.

588
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 7: Did she really know for these multiple ds that this

589
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:33,840
Speaker 7: was a rejection, you know, or even that far in

590
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,080
Speaker 7: the past, if she had collected and you know, dehydrated

591
00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,560
Speaker 7: these mushrooms? I think there's so much about timeline here,

592
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 7: But yes, I mean it was probably felt at some

593
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,920
Speaker 7: point in some way as a rejection, not only by

594
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 7: him but by the whole family. But still, you know,

595
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 7: those kind of pieces of the puzzle are still a

596
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 7: bit confusing to me.

597
00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:58,760
Speaker 1: And according to the grocery stores they don't sell that mushroom?

598
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 1: Do we even know she bought them? Because we're learning

599
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 1: something new another.

600
00:36:04,239 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 2: Piece of the puzzle. Listen to cut nine.

601
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,840
Speaker 11: Police begin investigating the deaths. Four of the seven people

602
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 11: at Aaron Patterson's house the day she serves beef Wellington

603
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 11: garnish with mushrooms get sick to her children they ate

604
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,839
Speaker 11: something different. The remaining adult is Aaron Patterson herself. She

605
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 11: doesn't get sick either. As the investigation progresses, police reveal

606
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 11: the reason why.

607
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 2: They think everyone got sick.

608
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,440
Speaker 11: They all displayed symptoms of having eaten death cap mushrooms,

609
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 11: which reportedly grow wild near Aaron's house.

610
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 1: Grow wild near their home. What else do I know

611
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:38,800
Speaker 1: about a death cat mushroom?

612
00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:41,719
Speaker 3: Listen and Benita Felloyd's is also known as a death

613
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:46,160
Speaker 3: cat mushroom. Its large domed cap looks fairly innocuous, similar

614
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: to many edible wild mushrooms, but as the name suggests,

615
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 3: it is deadly poisonous. A death cap smells sickly sweet

616
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,759
Speaker 3: and rancid as it matures butt in its button stage.

617
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:59,280
Speaker 3: It is virtually odorless. Death caps grow in forest, particularly

618
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 3: under oaken. It only takes ingesting very little of the

619
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 3: cab to be lethal, and it's symptoms doesn't always appear

620
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:10,799
Speaker 3: right away. Thousands have died mistaking death caps for edible mushrooms.

621
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,839
Speaker 3: No death caps contain the poison eminem and are responsible

622
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,319
Speaker 3: for ninety percent of deaths by fungus with half a

623
00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 3: cap or even less, enough to kill a person.

624
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,400
Speaker 2: Half a cap or less. When we're saying cap, doctor

625
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: Lawrence Millman, that's the top.

626
00:37:26,840 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 5: Of the mushroom top that's the way the umbrella, the

627
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:33,839
Speaker 5: umbrella like shape of it. Yes, but you can. By

628
00:37:33,840 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 5: the way, people often ask, can you touch a toxic mushroom?

629
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 5: And you can touch it all you want. You need

630
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 5: to get a chunk of it in your stomach. You

631
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 5: can smell it too, And I've often said that the

632
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,640
Speaker 5: odor is something like a hospital sick room. Of them

633
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:53,840
Speaker 5: need to provoid these.

634
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: Why would anybody eat that?

635
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 5: Well, you know they may have not smelled it. They might,

636
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 5: but we're talking everybody. You said everybody, But we're talking

637
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 5: about a very sparse number of people who've died. I mean,

638
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 5: as I said, maybe twelve people a year, twelve fourteen

639
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 5: people a year in the US die more dot people

640
00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 5: die from dog bites than from eating this mushroom.

641
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:24,319
Speaker 1: Well I won't either, But that said, is this the

642
00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 1: first time?

643
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,239
Speaker 2: Wait for it? Take a listen to our cut.

644
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 3: Thirteen questions arise when investigators discover ex husband Simon Patterson

645
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 3: spent three weeks in the hospital while he was still

646
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:39,840
Speaker 3: married to Aaron. According to a Facebook post, a mystery

647
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:42,600
Speaker 3: illness put him in intensive care for twenty one days

648
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 3: after he collapsed at his home while suffering from an

649
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 3: undiagnosed stomach illness. Simon Patterson says he was placed into

650
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: an induced coma, enduring three emergency operations, mainly on his

651
00:38:54,080 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 3: small intestines. Patterson says his family was asked to come

652
00:38:57,760 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 3: and say goodbye to him twice, as he was not

653
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,719
Speaker 3: expected to live. The couple are believed to have separated

654
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 3: soon afterwards.

655
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: Okay, a tiny bit more before I go to Joe

656
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,840
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan and our mushroom expert doctor Milnan listen to fourteen.

657
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,440
Speaker 3: Several friends tell Daily Mail that Simon Patterson had not

658
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 3: suspected the mystery illness to be linked to foul play,

659
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 3: but with the death of family members, Simon Patterson is

660
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 3: questioning whether his illness may also have been due to

661
00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:28,799
Speaker 3: inevertently ingesting toxic mushrooms. Court documents alleged Aaron Patterson tried

662
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 3: to kill her estranged husband three times between November twenty

663
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,359
Speaker 3: twenty one and September twenty twenty two. Police are now

664
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 3: looking at medical records.

665
00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: Okay, Joe Scott Morgan, they call the priest three times.

666
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 1: They call the family to come say goodbye to the husband.

667
00:39:46,000 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: This occurs while they're still married and living together. Three

668
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,080
Speaker 1: weeks in the hospital, had to have portions.

669
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 2: Off his small intestine.

670
00:39:54,640 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 1: Three emergency operations helped me out.

671
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: Joe Scott what happened, Well.

672
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,439
Speaker 9: He presumvents probably which a lot of these people do.

673
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:04,960
Speaker 9: It sounds like with the condition, it's like similar to

674
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 9: a gastroentritis. You know, when you show up and you've

675
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 9: got diarrhea, nausea, vomiting, perhaps you might you might present

676
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 9: in kind of a confused state and you know when.

677
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 9: To doctor Milman's point, and this is really fascinating relative

678
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 9: to how this theme is kind of masked. Just like

679
00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 9: he had mentioned, there are very few of these fatal

680
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:34,200
Speaker 9: poisoning events with this mushroom. Get this, if you're a clinician,

681
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 9: you're an er physician, and you're treating these folks and

682
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:40,200
Speaker 9: they roll in, you're not gonna you hear hoof beats,

683
00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 9: and you're not gonna think camel nancy. You know, they're

684
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,800
Speaker 9: thinking they're gonna treat this as if it's some kind

685
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:50,640
Speaker 9: of you know, gastrointestinal disturbance at first. And the thing

686
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 9: about this particular mushroom and the way it presents is

687
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 9: that you go through this first cycle of exposure to

688
00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 9: this where you know your guts are all torn up,

689
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 9: you feel horrible, and then you begin to kind of

690
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 9: you get a little bit better, and it goes into

691
00:41:06,600 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 9: what they it's kind of like a dormant face, but

692
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 9: it's not dormant. The toxins in the scene begin begin

693
00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 9: at a cellular level.

694
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I just snapped out of my

695
00:41:17,440 --> 00:41:20,600
Speaker 1: reverie when you said sell your little level. I'm like

696
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: thiss Nate Charmer, like I'm listening to Joe Scott Morgan

697
00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: and I'm hearing and testing old gas cho in it.

698
00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:28,280
Speaker 2: I just sell your little level and bam.

699
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: The main thing I'm thinking. Shell Nut James shell Nut.

700
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: Court documents alleged Aaron Patterson tried to kill her a

701
00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:42,120
Speaker 1: strange husband three times between November twenty one and September

702
00:41:42,160 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 1: twenty two to.

703
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,760
Speaker 2: H e double l with the supermarket.

704
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 1: The woman's already suspective trying to kill the husband three

705
00:41:51,040 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: times already.

706
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 10: Oh yeah, absolutely, you know it's going to be real interesting.

707
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 10: I'm sure the police have order requested this as to

708
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 10: what research this this lady has thought. You know, this

709
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 10: is not something that the normal person has some super

710
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,879
Speaker 10: knowledge on. You have to have researched this show.

711
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,160
Speaker 1: I mean, when I want to make a mushroom dish,

712
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 1: which my husband is the one that loves the mushrooms,

713
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: I go to Instacart and.

714
00:42:13,280 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: I got blah blah blah.

715
00:42:14,160 --> 00:42:16,319
Speaker 1: I don't even know what I get, and that's what

716
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 1: goes in. I get it from Kruger or publics or angles.

717
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,480
Speaker 2: I'm not worried. What is that shriveled up a little

718
00:42:23,520 --> 00:42:25,319
Speaker 2: piece of something. I don't even know what that is?

719
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 2: Three times three times.

720
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: Court documents reveal the ex thought she was trying to

721
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 1: kill him. And let me go to ask short with

722
00:42:37,880 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 1: Daily Wire, why can you tell me about you know,

723
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 1: that dehydrator that she would have possibly picked mushrooms and

724
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,479
Speaker 1: dehydrated them to use later.

725
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 2: What happened to that dehydrator?

726
00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,680
Speaker 1: Because apparently she told police that she dumped the appliance

727
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 1: quote a long time ago.

728
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:59,360
Speaker 4: Right, But she then in a statement that she handed

729
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,560
Speaker 4: over a police she admitted that she did dumped that

730
00:43:02,640 --> 00:43:08,120
Speaker 4: food dehydrator in a panic after her ex husband accused

731
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 4: her of poisoning his parents. So it hadn't been a

732
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 4: long time ago.

733
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:13,480
Speaker 1: Okay, wait a minute, can I just tell you something

734
00:43:13,520 --> 00:43:17,680
Speaker 1: that just happened, and everybody's got away in My mom

735
00:43:18,120 --> 00:43:21,360
Speaker 1: fell asleep in a chair and she fell off the

736
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,399
Speaker 1: chair and hit her head, and she said she was fine,

737
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: but I rushed her to the hospital just to make

738
00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,720
Speaker 1: sure there was not a bruise. There was no blood,

739
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 1: but just to make sure she didn't bump her hand somehow.

740
00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 2: Get a slow brain blade. Like I talk about all

741
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 2: the time.

742
00:43:36,560 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: The first thing I did was not get rid get

743
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,080
Speaker 1: rid of all the nanny cam footage in the house

744
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,319
Speaker 1: and turned my phone into airplane mode and rent a

745
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,360
Speaker 1: car to take her to the hospital. Or why, because

746
00:43:50,360 --> 00:43:53,960
Speaker 1: that's not what's on my mind. Why did this woman

747
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 1: feel she had to get rid of the dehydrator?

748
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:01,040
Speaker 2: So what if he said you killed my family.

749
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 1: Why would that lead her to kill her dehydrator, I

750
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: mean to her dehydrator.

751
00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:11,520
Speaker 2: Robin Drake joining me.

752
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:16,360
Speaker 1: He is the expert in behavioral analysis. Robin Drake, that

753
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: screaming guilt to me.

754
00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

755
00:44:19,239 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 6: And she made one statement that I really zeroed in

756
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,600
Speaker 6: on on this case so far, in that she says,

757
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:26,400
Speaker 6: I really want to repeat that I had no reason

758
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 6: to hurt these people whom I love. These people, she

759
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:33,360
Speaker 6: has a separation from them, so if she's doing this

760
00:44:33,440 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 6: out of love, that's a weird thing to say. I mean,

761
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,399
Speaker 6: think about this. You've never referred to your mother as

762
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 6: that mother or anything else. This is my mother. So

763
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,719
Speaker 6: there's no possessive pronoun in there whatsoever. And so that

764
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 6: was really telling to me.

765
00:44:46,040 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 2: You know what.

766
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that, because I hadn't thought

767
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: of that, Robin Drake, when you said mother, I thought

768
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,560
Speaker 1: of my mother in law. Who mother in law and

769
00:44:56,680 --> 00:44:58,440
Speaker 1: my father in law? Do you know I've known this

770
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:03,759
Speaker 1: since seventy nine, never had a crossword with them in

771
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 1: all those years. Ever, I would never say that woman.

772
00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:13,680
Speaker 1: I would never call missus Lynch that woman ever.

773
00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:14,720
Speaker 10: Very telling.

774
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 2: It really is, Robin, And you just picked up on that. Okay,

775
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 2: James shell n not weigh in.

776
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 10: Well, you know the first thing I'm thinking of.

777
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:24,359
Speaker 1: All you were gonna say she's in a whole heap

778
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:24,880
Speaker 1: of trouble.

779
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 10: That's a fact. But I will tell you this, Look,

780
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,120
Speaker 10: if you really believe, if you really believe that these

781
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:37,360
Speaker 10: mushrooms that you bought from this store are the source

782
00:45:37,400 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 10: of this, you know the first thing I'm doing, I'm saying, Hey,

783
00:45:40,200 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 10: here's my credit cords statement where I bought these mushrooms.

784
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 10: Here's my receipt where I bought these mushrooms. This is

785
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:47,799
Speaker 10: the day that I was in. Go back and check

786
00:45:47,840 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 10: the cameras I was there. I want these people held accountables.

787
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:53,839
Speaker 10: I'm not getting rid of evidence. I'm trying to help

788
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,480
Speaker 10: them build a case against the people who sold the bushroom.

789
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 2: You are so right. I also didn't think of that.

790
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 4: It is at it again.

791
00:46:00,680 --> 00:46:01,000
Speaker 1: Sorry.

792
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:06,799
Speaker 4: A counterpoint that could possibly be in Aaron's defense is

793
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,759
Speaker 4: that you're told that you know these mushrooms that you

794
00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:15,280
Speaker 4: put in your dehydrator killed some people. Could you panic

795
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:18,360
Speaker 4: and just throw it away because you're afraid of touching

796
00:46:18,400 --> 00:46:21,080
Speaker 4: it or having it near in your kitchen to poison

797
00:46:21,160 --> 00:46:21,720
Speaker 4: other people.

798
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:25,279
Speaker 1: Well, I would think she'd be afraid, even if she

799
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 1: is innocent, that she would be charged and get rid

800
00:46:29,560 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: of the evidence. But back to shell Nutt, some people

801
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: like me, I would say, I did use the mushrooms,

802
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 1: and I got them at this place, and I dehydrated

803
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: them here, but I never had any idea that they're

804
00:46:44,960 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: as doctor Milman is telling us that they were death caps.

805
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:53,400
Speaker 6: I totally agree. Innocent people offer transparency and transparent.

806
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:54,960
Speaker 2: Doctor joy jump in what do you think.

807
00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 7: Well, I was going to say, you know, in the air,

808
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 7: this is maybe not the most psychiatric that I've ever said,

809
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 7: but at least from my experience in the area that

810
00:47:03,080 --> 00:47:07,360
Speaker 7: I live, people do forage mushrooms. They also sell mushrooms

811
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 7: that they forage to restaurants, they sell them to markets,

812
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,120
Speaker 7: and so I just wanted to go back to that

813
00:47:12,120 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 7: statement about the market, not quote having these mushrooms. I

814
00:47:15,680 --> 00:47:18,839
Speaker 7: mean people, that is a possibility too, at least within

815
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 7: the area that I live. You don't know where every

816
00:47:20,600 --> 00:47:23,600
Speaker 7: single mushroom's coming from, even at the markets and their restaurant. So,

817
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 7: you know, again, not the most psychiatric thing that I've

818
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 7: ever said, but definitely from that perspective. I mean going

819
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 7: to the actual question at hand, though, I really think

820
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 7: so much of it depends on when he canceled, when

821
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 7: these conversations were about him, you know, the family not

822
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 7: wedding to reconcile, and that timeline of her cooking, preparing

823
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:47,759
Speaker 7: the meals and the meal and when she got the mushrooms. Really,

824
00:47:47,760 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 7: that's what it's down to for me, because if she

825
00:47:50,000 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 7: didn't know those things before she spent these days, you know,

826
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 7: preparing I don't feel that even the sense of rejection

827
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:59,400
Speaker 7: would have mattered, and no matter how tense intense it was.

828
00:48:00,120 --> 00:48:02,839
Speaker 1: Also got to take into account the other three alleged

829
00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: incidents where she tried to kill her husband.

830
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 2: According to him, correct.

831
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: Jackie's question is with the residue from deathcat mushrooms in

832
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 1: the dehydrator taint other suits? That's her question, Lawrence Millman,

833
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,319
Speaker 1: we need help. Can you help us?

834
00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 5: Well, let me let me offer a suggestion. First of all,

835
00:48:24,040 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 5: I mean, it doesn't take us Sherlock Holmes to see

836
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 5: that all the other people got sick, but she did not.

837
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:38,799
Speaker 4: Wait, there is a point on that. Now, granted, you

838
00:48:38,840 --> 00:48:42,800
Speaker 4: have to take Aaron, in her statement to police, said

839
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 4: that she had gone to the hospital with stomach pains

840
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:48,680
Speaker 4: and was given a liver drug. Now the police obviously

841
00:48:48,800 --> 00:48:51,600
Speaker 4: have to check that. We don't know, just like so

842
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 4: many other things in this case. We don't know what

843
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 4: police have checked.

844
00:48:54,760 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 2: But we do know that she's charged, right, she.

845
00:48:57,560 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 4: Has been charged, So maybe they did find these things

846
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,440
Speaker 4: just not telling us. She also told police that her

847
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 4: kids ate the meal as leftovers, but they scraped the

848
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:09,439
Speaker 4: mushrooms off because they don't like them.

849
00:49:09,480 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 1: What a co inky dink, that's a technical legal phrase.

850
00:49:14,120 --> 00:49:19,240
Speaker 1: That she didn't end up having a liver transplant or die,

851
00:49:19,560 --> 00:49:24,000
Speaker 1: and her children don't like mushrooms, in her words, and

852
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:27,200
Speaker 1: they scraped them off. So she and her two children

853
00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 1: live with no liver transplant. Everybody else gets horribly, horribly

854
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 1: ill or dies.

855
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:36,880
Speaker 2: Now what were you saying, doctor Melman.

856
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 5: Oh, I was just mentioning that, but the fact that

857
00:49:40,360 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 5: she didn't seem to get sick. But now I find

858
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:45,600
Speaker 5: out that she did get sick.

859
00:49:45,680 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: I mean, we don't know that, doctor Milman, just because

860
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: she said she was sick.

861
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: She also said she didn't use the dehydrator.

862
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:54,120
Speaker 5: Is the proof of her going to the hospital.

863
00:49:54,440 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 2: I have no proof she went to the hospital. Zero.

864
00:49:56,960 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 5: Yeah. No, It's very interesting and what the liver pop

865
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,960
Speaker 5: liver prop problem is probably the most dramatic.

866
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 4: One.

867
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,279
Speaker 5: One of the ways in which people on the road

868
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:13,280
Speaker 5: to death might survive is by being given a liver transplant.

869
00:50:13,880 --> 00:50:18,080
Speaker 5: This inhibits cell division. The cells essentially are no longer

870
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 5: alive and the body responds accordingly. So you know the

871
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:28,640
Speaker 5: tax cells, it's the amatoxins that are there. The attack

872
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:32,799
Speaker 5: sells and make cell division difficult if not impossible. And

873
00:50:32,840 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 5: the other thing is that towards the beginning, outward symptoms

874
00:50:36,680 --> 00:50:41,080
Speaker 5: don't even begin until considerable cell damage is done. That's

875
00:50:41,120 --> 00:50:41,920
Speaker 5: a big problem.

876
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,400
Speaker 1: This is what I know as the case stands now,

877
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: the testimony from the soul survivor of the deadly mushroom

878
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: lunch could be crucial to the outcome of this case.

879
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:04,120
Speaker 2: Let's hope he lives. We wait as just as Saples.

880
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 5: Goodbye to him.