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Speaker 1: Hey guys, um, so sorry, UM, in a few seconds
Speaker 1: you're gonna hear us start talking again. Um, but you're
Speaker 1: not going to be able to hear me super well
Speaker 1: because somebody whose initials are Steve. Uh. But my volume
Speaker 1: way down, so sorry about that. Technical difficulties. Obviously we've
Speaker 1: got that figured out, ships, So sorry. It sounds a
Speaker 1: little rough and weird. We did the best we could,
Speaker 1: but like I said, won't happen again. I promise, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry and everything. So here we go, Hey everybody, and
Speaker 1: welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am
Speaker 1: Steve as always, joined by Devin and Joe, and once
Speaker 1: again we have another mystery for you. This week we
Speaker 1: are going to be talking about the Long Island serial
Speaker 1: Killer a k a. The gil Go Beach serial Killer
Speaker 1: a k a. The crazlist serial killers. Are we talking
Speaker 1: about a serial killer? We are talking about a serial killer,
Speaker 1: and just a quick ward of warning to everybody, it's
Speaker 1: a serial killer who focuses primarily on women, so we're
Speaker 1: gonna be talking about the killing of women and a child.
Speaker 1: The story involves drug use and prostitution, so if those
Speaker 1: are triggers, please turn us all off now, or if
Speaker 1: you've got little ears a k a. Children around, probably
Speaker 1: not the time to have this one on. Save us
Speaker 1: for another time. In other words, it's the kind of
Speaker 1: episode that most of you weirdos love exactly. It kind
Speaker 1: of is um And speaking of weirdos, this story was
Speaker 1: suggested by a couple of our listeners. Uh this was
Speaker 1: under the different names. It came through a couple of times.
Speaker 1: I found it on the list, but Jeannette and Renee
Speaker 1: are the first ones that had it on the list.
Speaker 1: So let's do a quick overview of the story, because
Speaker 1: this one is actually kind of a big Long onelve
Speaker 1: A lot of dead bodies. That's about all you need
Speaker 1: to know our start. Our story revolves around the discovery
Speaker 1: of several sets of remains. About a dozen women were
Speaker 1: found on the south side of Long Island, New York
Speaker 1: between two thousand ten and two thousand eleven, and the
Speaker 1: bodies were found primarily on the Southern Barrier Island, which
Speaker 1: is Oak Island, though a few remains were found on
Speaker 1: Fire Island, which is to the east, and then some
Speaker 1: were also found further in in the town of I
Speaker 1: believe it's Mannerville is the proper pronunciation there. The bodies
Speaker 1: that were found belonged to women who had been missing
Speaker 1: since between roughly six to two thousand and ten. There's
Speaker 1: some weak connections between them, but aside from their occupations
Speaker 1: and some particular habits that involve substances that are illegal there,
Speaker 1: there isn't a whole lot to connect these women, well,
Speaker 1: not not as a whole. That among the sets of remains,
Speaker 1: there was a lot to connect some smaller subsets. Subsets, yes,
Speaker 1: and and that's why we're gonna get into the story here,
Speaker 1: and this one I've kind of organized a little bit
Speaker 1: different than I've done them in the past. I've actually
Speaker 1: broken this into what I'm going to refer to as chapters,
Speaker 1: because there are several chapters and we've got a lot
Speaker 1: of players, so we should probably just jump right in. Yeah,
Speaker 1: this tone in front of me. Is should be divided
Speaker 1: into chapters? Well, if I listed it in bullet points,
Speaker 1: it would be ten pages more. That's why I do that.
Speaker 1: Make it ten pages more. So you looked like you
Speaker 1: have a bigger script. Okay, good to know. Alright. Chapter one,
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what I refer to as
Speaker 1: the catalyst disappearance. So a woman by the name of
Speaker 1: Shannon Gilbert, who was twenty four years old. Her family,
Speaker 1: by the way, lived in or lives in Ellenville, New York.
Speaker 1: But Shannon was an adult at the time. She's twenty four,
Speaker 1: she didn't live in that town with her family. Instead,
Speaker 1: she I've seen several different places that she lived. She
Speaker 1: lived actually in New York City, or she lives somewhere
Speaker 1: in New Jersey. But at the time she was living
Speaker 1: with her boyfriend whose name was Alex Did Alex. I
Speaker 1: believe Alex did pretty sure that he had an idea
Speaker 1: based on some calls that he made later on about
Speaker 1: what's going on here. But on the first of May
Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, Shannon went to meet a client.
Speaker 1: That client's name was Joseph Brewer and he lived on
Speaker 1: Oak Island, and she had a driver take her there
Speaker 1: that night. His name was Michael Pack. So Shannon and
Speaker 1: Brewery they had talked ahead of time. They had agreed
Speaker 1: that she was going to go to his house for sex. Uh.
Speaker 1: She had at this point been by my best guess
Speaker 1: prostitute for about a year. Uh. Sorry, this might be
Speaker 1: a dumb question, Um, Pack. Was he like her personal
Speaker 1: driver all the time? Was he just like a random
Speaker 1: taxi driver? Yeah? No, Michael Pack was a fairly regular
Speaker 1: driver for her. It doesn't kind of like a security
Speaker 1: escort of Yeah. The funny thing is is that, you
Speaker 1: know what Pack wasn't really like I would consider a
Speaker 1: security escort a guy who would hang out and be
Speaker 1: nearby for most of the time. That wasn't the case
Speaker 1: with Michael because what he did is he he dropped
Speaker 1: Shannon off at Brewer's house and then he left. I believe, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I believe that's because Brewer was going to pay
Speaker 1: for many hours of her companionship. Thank you. Companionship is
Speaker 1: the term I was looking. Yes, Um came to regrets
Speaker 1: his association with her, didn't he He He did kind of here,
Speaker 1: Um because when from from his accounts, from Brewer's accounts,
Speaker 1: at first, you know, things were fine for the first
Speaker 1: couple of hours. He said they never actually had sex,
Speaker 1: but instead they were they were doing drugs together basically
Speaker 1: the entire time. Um, now, there's some unconfirmed reporting on
Speaker 1: something I'm gonna talk about here, and you're actually gonna
Speaker 1: find a lot of unconfirmed reporting in the story. But
Speaker 1: it is reported that the pair Brewer and Shannon went
Speaker 1: down the street to another house to which was the
Speaker 1: resident of that house was the doctor Peter Hackett, and
Speaker 1: the doctor had drugs, and they bought more drugs to
Speaker 1: continue their drug fueled evening. Can't confirm that or not.
Speaker 1: I think that well, the hard party, they're not talking.
Speaker 1: Their stories have changed, like, well, I don't know. I
Speaker 1: just find it hard to believe that Brewer would confess
Speaker 1: to go and buying a illicit drugs from the doctor.
Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time time accepting that. Well, and
Speaker 1: that's the thing, is said. Brewer has been really honest
Speaker 1: with he's been He's just done. It's the cops said
Speaker 1: I want you to do this. He did it like
Speaker 1: he complied to all requests from the police, and he
Speaker 1: didn't hide the fact. I mean, I don't know that
Speaker 1: the cops ever put any charges against him for having
Speaker 1: an escort coming to his house. He was very blatantly
Speaker 1: hiring the service of a prostitute. Yeah, I guess it
Speaker 1: seems like to me that if you know, somebody comes here,
Speaker 1: Doran says, Um, hey, we heard this woman was with
Speaker 1: you last night. Hey, it turns out she's missing. And
Speaker 1: then you know, a couple of weeks later or whatever,
Speaker 1: they say, Oh, it turns out she's horrifically been murdered. Um.
Speaker 1: Maybe you would say, okay, yeah, the drug part, yes, um,
Speaker 1: But here's the rest of it. And I had nothing
Speaker 1: to do with that. Last time I saw her, she
Speaker 1: was alive. Right. I will give you literally all of
Speaker 1: the information. I don't want you to think I'm hiding
Speaker 1: anything from you. But on the other hand, that's also
Speaker 1: something a really smart criminal would do. True, that's up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And and here's exactly what happens, is that you know
Speaker 1: whether they did or did not go to the doctor's house.
Speaker 1: After several hours, Brewer calls pack because Shannon is upset
Speaker 1: and acting, as I've seen it from his description, crazy,
Speaker 1: She's she's not happy, and she wants to leave. There's
Speaker 1: no history of like bipolar disorder. Or anything like that
Speaker 1: with her. I don't remember anything. I mean, there's so
Speaker 1: many players in here, I can't remember the specifics of that. Okay,
Speaker 1: but like that, but I mean, let's let's let's not
Speaker 1: look at you know, major underlying causes. She's high, if
Speaker 1: she is truly as he says, they are doing drugs
Speaker 1: for hours on end, she's very, very heavily under the
Speaker 1: influence at his point. But but what happens is, you know,
Speaker 1: he calls pack, Pack shows up. He starts that, he
Speaker 1: gets out of the car, and apparently Shannon runs out
Speaker 1: of the house, stops, sees Pack, turns the other direction
Speaker 1: and runs away from him and starts beaten feet through
Speaker 1: the through the neighborhoods now. And this was like early
Speaker 1: hours of the mornings, like fo yeah, yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: four in the morning something like that. She's knocking on
Speaker 1: doors and yeah, and and so what happens here is that,
Speaker 1: you know, Brewer just turns around and goes back in
Speaker 1: his house. He's done, He's finished with this whole deal.
Speaker 1: But Packaged there around looking for Shannon. In the meantime,
Speaker 1: Shannon is running around the neighborhood banging on doors. Some
Speaker 1: of the residents. Well, okay, so most of the residents
Speaker 1: they just called nine one. They didn't actually open their doors.
Speaker 1: There is one person who says they opened the door
Speaker 1: and they let her in, but she didn't stick around
Speaker 1: long enough to get help before she split again. She
Speaker 1: just took off. But Shannon, she she does call one her.
Speaker 1: Her call to dispatch evidently came in at four am,
Speaker 1: so this is five am, so she's been up all
Speaker 1: night and she starts making statements that are they're trying
Speaker 1: to kill me and they're after me. Now, obviously the dispatcher,
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's going on, ask where are you?
Speaker 1: At which point it becomes very apparent that Chinna didn't
Speaker 1: know exactly where she was, and I mean in the
Speaker 1: in the ground, and not in just the specifics of
Speaker 1: what intersection you're at, but where on the island are you?
Speaker 1: Because she gave a completely different town or island name.
Speaker 1: She didn't really know where she was. She didn't pay attention.
Speaker 1: Apparently I have to guess she was so loaded that yeah.
Speaker 1: But what happens is, unfortunately she gives a location that
Speaker 1: four versus the dispatcher to transfer her call to a
Speaker 1: different dispatcher, because of jurisdiction. In other words, she was
Speaker 1: she said, she was basically in what amounts to another county,
Speaker 1: so the another county set of police had to take
Speaker 1: care of it. Yeah. Yeah, And there's been a lot
Speaker 1: of criticism of this, and I to a point, I
Speaker 1: don't criticize the nine on one dispatcher because they can
Speaker 1: only operate on the information that they're given. Group. Yeah
Speaker 1: you can. I mean, you can only do so much
Speaker 1: much as you can do with the information. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you're reliant upon that. But Shannon was on the phone
Speaker 1: with nine on one for a total of twenty three
Speaker 1: minutes before her call ended. Yeah, it's a very long call. Now,
Speaker 1: I know part of that. She was apparently on hold
Speaker 1: for several minutes between you know, when she was getting transferred.
Speaker 1: I know that accounts for a part of it. But
Speaker 1: eventually her call ends. Doesn't sound like she just said
Speaker 1: okay by It sounds like the call just dropped. I'm
Speaker 1: guessing that based on the descriptions I've read. I haven't
Speaker 1: actually heard the tape because the tape isn't publicly available
Speaker 1: go figure, so it's hard to say exactly how she sounded.
Speaker 1: I've read accounts that vary, so anywhere from she was
Speaker 1: panicked too incoherent or she was loaded versus being, you know,
Speaker 1: stone cold sober. I've heard different descriptions of her her
Speaker 1: state on that call, so I don't know. Um. There's
Speaker 1: also talk that there were voices in the background. Now,
Speaker 1: was that pack calling to her? Was that while she
Speaker 1: was at this one neighbor's house before she beat feet
Speaker 1: and got up I got out of there. I don't know.
Speaker 1: And I've never heard that pin down anywhere people and
Speaker 1: yelling at her to shut up. Yeah, I mean, you
Speaker 1: know what's going on, lady, cut it out? What's deal?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, no idea. But what we do know
Speaker 1: is that she she, like I said, she caused a
Speaker 1: whole bunch of calls to nine one on. The police
Speaker 1: ended up coming to the area. That it took them
Speaker 1: forty five minutes to respond. So people have criticized that,
Speaker 1: as people always criticize response times. That's I mean, it's silly.
Speaker 1: The police have a lot to do. Yeah, especially in
Speaker 1: New York. They're going to kind of triage that is,
Speaker 1: I don't know triage is the right word or not,
Speaker 1: but they're gonna response to the things that are most
Speaker 1: important to least, probably saying like, there's a crazy lady
Speaker 1: walking down our street yelling doesn't take press shot exactly right.
Speaker 1: Of course, by the time the cops get there, she's gone.
Speaker 1: H The last people to see her worse those residents
Speaker 1: that we that we know of anyway, unless something else
Speaker 1: is going on here. But she was last seen, according
Speaker 1: to the residence, somewhere between Anchor Way, which was the
Speaker 1: street that Brewer lived on, and Larboard Court, which is
Speaker 1: an intersecting street, Uh, several blocks down. That's that's the
Speaker 1: last we know whuns on that island. They're just basically
Speaker 1: one street town. Well, it's a suburb, it's this This
Speaker 1: where she was at was kind of a gated community suburb.
Speaker 1: So it really was very small. So it wasn't as
Speaker 1: if she could have gone just a massive distance in
Speaker 1: any way. She Plus she was on a long, narrow island. Well,
Speaker 1: anybody barrier, it's a very skinny little island. Shannon's story, officially,
Speaker 1: in the narrative of the Long Island Cereal Killer ends
Speaker 1: there for a while. But I'm just gonna go ahead
Speaker 1: and jump ahead in time and finish up the story
Speaker 1: of Shannon. Yeah, just to stay with her for the
Speaker 1: rest of this because there's there's some here and and
Speaker 1: it will help for when we get to everything else
Speaker 1: later on. The police had searched around Brewer's house, and
Speaker 1: they had searched in the surrounding area, and they kept
Speaker 1: looking around, but there their search went east and west, because,
Speaker 1: as we talked about, it's a it's a narrow spit
Speaker 1: of an island. It's not very big. It's a clarify.
Speaker 1: Brewer himself never called nine one, nor did pack correct correct.
Speaker 1: It was just Shannon and then neighbors. He didn't really
Speaker 1: know what's going on. Yes, okay, yeah, I just wanted
Speaker 1: to clarify. Yep, you're absolutely right, and I can see
Speaker 1: why Brewer wouldn't do it as far as he was concerned.
Speaker 1: He handed off to the driver and it's problem. Yeah. Um,
Speaker 1: so what the police do is they start spreading east
Speaker 1: and west. Well, what you need to know is just
Speaker 1: to the east of Anchor Way and Larboard Court there's
Speaker 1: a giant marsh. It's really big, and it it extends
Speaker 1: all the way to Ocean Parkway, which is the east
Speaker 1: west thoroughfare across the island, and then goes all the
Speaker 1: way to the Robert Moses Causeway, which is the main
Speaker 1: north south route which takes you through Fire Island and
Speaker 1: then eventually onto actually Long Island. When they were when
Speaker 1: they started searching, you said kind of near Brewer's house?
Speaker 1: Was it? Were they searching near Brewer's house because they
Speaker 1: knew he was involved at that point, or were they
Speaker 1: searching in that neighborhood because that's where she had last
Speaker 1: been seen. That was their last known place because when
Speaker 1: she took off, Pat didn't know where she started looking
Speaker 1: the police had found out that she was at Hewers
Speaker 1: and the pack was involved, correct, Okay, yeah, I just
Speaker 1: wanted to clarify that as well. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely interesting
Speaker 1: timeline stuff. Yeah, no, And the timeline on this is
Speaker 1: is a little difficult. It's because again, as we get
Speaker 1: farther and there's gonna be so much going on. But
Speaker 1: the vegetation in the March that I was talking about,
Speaker 1: it is by all accounts, obscenely dense and very difficult
Speaker 1: to get through and navigate. And at this time of year,
Speaker 1: this is in the beginning or in the midst of
Speaker 1: the growing season, so the police couldn't actually search that
Speaker 1: and they were like, listen, we can't go in there
Speaker 1: until it's the winter months. Now, she disappears in the
Speaker 1: middle of We're now going to jump forward to December
Speaker 1: of eleven, which is a year and a half later
Speaker 1: they actually start. Yeah, I know, Devin just gave me
Speaker 1: a funny look. Yeah, there's a huge disparity because they
Speaker 1: serve they can't do anything. Shannon's mom was a huge,
Speaker 1: huge factor in the search continuing for her, and there's
Speaker 1: some other things that come up that then prompted the
Speaker 1: police to keep searching. I'm willing to say I don't
Speaker 1: blame the dispatcher. I don't blame anyone one for not
Speaker 1: showing up. But a year and a half, guys, well,
Speaker 1: you know, it's uh yeah, I don't know. It takes
Speaker 1: a long time to find bodies, it seems like. But
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, so she disappeared in May and
Speaker 1: they said, Okay, we've got to wait until things peer out.
Speaker 1: It's like, all right, so you wait those but they
Speaker 1: had actually been searching and they found some other stuff.
Speaker 1: But no, they didn't think that. They didn't think that
Speaker 1: necessarily she had disappeared and died. She is a She
Speaker 1: is not officially a missing person. She is an adult
Speaker 1: of her own means she could very well have flagged
Speaker 1: a ride and driven away with somebody and said, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm I'm tired of living this life and
Speaker 1: I'm just moving on. Okay, they don't know that. Times
Speaker 1: I've forget that we're talking about adults here. Okay. So
Speaker 1: December two eleven, right, Um, So they go and they
Speaker 1: start searching through that marsh. A year and a half
Speaker 1: later and they started they starting there. They find her
Speaker 1: purse with her idea that they find her phone, They
Speaker 1: find her shoes and her jeans, and they keep going
Speaker 1: in and eventually they find her very badly decomposed remains
Speaker 1: year and a half of the march exactly. It sounds gross. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot of conjecture over her her
Speaker 1: cause of death. The initial ruling is, uh, something that
Speaker 1: I haven't seen in a long time, which is death
Speaker 1: by misadventure and drowning death. My misadventure is just a
Speaker 1: strange way to call it. That's what I want my
Speaker 1: cause of death, my misadventure. I want. I want them
Speaker 1: to be death by a really awesome adventure. Well that's misadventure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: neither one works for me. I swear I'm up to
Speaker 1: no good. So there because of the state of her body,
Speaker 1: there wasn't a whole lot to do testing on far
Speaker 1: it was there, her phone, shoes, and her jeans. I
Speaker 1: don't have a I don't have a distance. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know that it was. It wasn't more than a
Speaker 1: mile in from where she her stuff was found, that
Speaker 1: her body was found, but I've I've never plotted the
Speaker 1: exact distance. It's not too far in. But it's a marsh.
Speaker 1: That's the hard part. Yea. They were able to find
Speaker 1: part of it because of the time of year, and
Speaker 1: it's affected by tides, so the waters coming up and down.
Speaker 1: So had they come in there, you know, six or
Speaker 1: eight hours later, they might not have found her remains.
Speaker 1: But they did some testing. They did testing because they
Speaker 1: were trying to figure out what's going on. And initially
Speaker 1: the initial emmy, the medical examer who worked on all
Speaker 1: of this, said that she didn't die of a drug reaction,
Speaker 1: and odd bit supposedly she didn't have any drugs in
Speaker 1: her system, which is completely opposite of the whole thing
Speaker 1: that Brewer was saying. Wells left, well, that's what I
Speaker 1: don't know how much soft tissue there was, and that
Speaker 1: might be why he says that is that, you know,
Speaker 1: it takes a long time for that stuff to to
Speaker 1: be in such doses that you could find it in
Speaker 1: the harder cartilages and bones that are left over from
Speaker 1: a body. So presuming that there was a very minimal
Speaker 1: amount of soft tissue left, which is why the test
Speaker 1: didn't reflect any of it, I would think she would
Speaker 1: have been just a skeleton pretty personally. I think everything
Speaker 1: everything out there would have been nibbling on hers. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but anything that's worth testing is probably gone by then. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I believe that's probably what what why it came
Speaker 1: out the way it was. But a second review of
Speaker 1: the body was done, uh, and that was, by the way,
Speaker 1: prompted by her mother Mary, who had that done about
Speaker 1: a year or so later I think it was or
Speaker 1: several years actually. But the secondary review concluded that Shannon
Speaker 1: had died of strangulation, and that was based on damage
Speaker 1: that was done to one of the small bones in
Speaker 1: her neck. The problem is is that that's not a
Speaker 1: positive proof because at least one or two of the
Speaker 1: other bones that were directly next to that one, we're missing,
Speaker 1: like some small critter probably carried it away, or it's
Speaker 1: sinking to the mocker or who knows. So it's not
Speaker 1: iron clad that she was strangled. Well, you know, it
Speaker 1: seems unlikely because out there in the middle of nowhere
Speaker 1: and this in this possible suburb kind of thing, you know,
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody's just gonna jump out of the bushes
Speaker 1: and choke her to death. I mean, maybe somebody wanted
Speaker 1: to just shut the hell up. Well no, no, The thing,
Speaker 1: you know, Joe, what what this is getting at, is that,
Speaker 1: based on what we're gonna talk about in about two
Speaker 1: paragraphs continuing on, is this was an attempt to link
Speaker 1: her death to the other bodies that are found, and
Speaker 1: a number of those bodies, if not all, are believed
Speaker 1: to have been strangled. So it's in a it's it's
Speaker 1: a buyer I considered a bias. It's you know, oh well,
Speaker 1: all these other ones were strangled, So look for signs
Speaker 1: of strangulation. Anything this could indicate. It becomes this is
Speaker 1: definitely an indicator of strangulation. Yeah, don't that's how that happened.
Speaker 1: I don't buy it. I think given her condition when
Speaker 1: last scene, she probably drowned herself. Yeah, I mean, it's
Speaker 1: it's hard to say death by misadventures is the most
Speaker 1: that I'm willing to commit to. Um I called Shannon
Speaker 1: the catalyst because the events surrounding her disappearance are what
Speaker 1: causes a much more thorough search of the entire area,
Speaker 1: and that is what brings to everyone's attention all of
Speaker 1: the other bodies. Ums were really thrilled to find out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: them for a dumping ground. Yeah. And and by the way,
Speaker 1: Shannon still to this day is not so I've I've
Speaker 1: said it was the Long Island serial killer, Gilgo Beach,
Speaker 1: whichever you want to call it. She is not officially
Speaker 1: considered one of the victims, right because he did killing elsewhere,
Speaker 1: you know, and dumped the bodies there. Well, and that's
Speaker 1: the thing is that again, Mary was I believe, trying
Speaker 1: to push for the idea of she was killed and
Speaker 1: then dumped there just like the other bodies had been.
Speaker 1: But um so that is the end of the Shannon,
Speaker 1: except that there is one bad bit of follow up,
Speaker 1: which is that sadly, as I was doing the research
Speaker 1: for this, which was about a month or so ago,
Speaker 1: that was about the time that unfortunately, Mary died of
Speaker 1: violent death um, Shannon's other sister, one of her other sisters, Sarah,
Speaker 1: apparently she's schizophrenic, was in an episode and something happened,
Speaker 1: and Mary, I believe, was stabbed. At last I knew
Speaker 1: Sarah was in in custody. There's not a whole lot
Speaker 1: of details out there. So it's a terrible thing for
Speaker 1: a family that already gone through all that freaking tragedy
Speaker 1: and everything that had happened. But so that's that's why
Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of finish up with Shannon. So
Speaker 1: we're gonna then move into the second chapter, which is
Speaker 1: the Burlap Victims. So, as we had talked about before,
Speaker 1: the police had been searching for Shannon, and they've been
Speaker 1: looking in the area and eventually, you know, after a
Speaker 1: certain amount of time, they had to call off the
Speaker 1: search for her. Now there's a police officer named John.
Speaker 1: I want to say the last name is pronounced Malia.
Speaker 1: But he was one half of a canine unit. Mal Yeah,
Speaker 1: what could be one of the two. But John was
Speaker 1: one half of a police unit. His partner was a
Speaker 1: German shepherd named Blue. I'm pretty sure it's pronounced blue,
Speaker 1: and he he knew about the search for Shannon. He
Speaker 1: was pretty sure he had come to the conclusion that
Speaker 1: she wasn't gonna be found alive, and he said, well,
Speaker 1: this is a great way to do some on the
Speaker 1: job training. Uh, this is the official story, by the way,
Speaker 1: So he would go. He was walking up and down
Speaker 1: the road in that area over the course of the
Speaker 1: summer in the fall of It could be that he
Speaker 1: just liked to walk the dog there, but he was
Speaker 1: using that officially as training to search for her while
Speaker 1: they were in that area. As winter months came, vegetation
Speaker 1: starts dying back. They can go farther and farther into
Speaker 1: the veget where the vegetation used to be. And on
Speaker 1: the eleventh of December, Blue triggered on a site in
Speaker 1: the brush, which is just off the side of Ocean
Speaker 1: Parkway in Gelgo Beach. What Blue had found, after digging
Speaker 1: just a little bit in the ground, was the skeletal
Speaker 1: remains of a woman whose name was Melissa Barthelemy. And
Speaker 1: like I said, she was just a little bit under
Speaker 1: the surface and her body was yeah shallow grave, and
Speaker 1: her body was wrapped in burlap. Never found in deep
Speaker 1: graves rarely. Usually that's actually very intentional when they're found
Speaker 1: in deep graves typically, but over some of course, obviously,
Speaker 1: the police swarm in the area and over the next
Speaker 1: two days they start scouring the area and they find
Speaker 1: three more bodies, each one wrapped in burlap. And the
Speaker 1: bodies belong to Marine Brainard Barnes, Megan Waterman, and Amber
Speaker 1: Lynn Costello. And how far they were pretty closely budged
Speaker 1: talking from each other. I would say a few yards
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. But again it's it's so many sites.
Speaker 1: Because this is the first of several dump sites that
Speaker 1: we're going to go through, I believe that this was
Speaker 1: the tightest packed bunch. Uh. The next seth that we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about, we're more spread about. Maureen was twenty
Speaker 1: five and she had last been seen on the ninth
Speaker 1: of July two thousand seven. She was she was seen
Speaker 1: in two seven. Yes, Melissa was twenty four and had
Speaker 1: been missing since the tenth of July two thousand nine.
Speaker 1: Megan was twenty two and had been missing since the
Speaker 1: sixth of June. And Amber was twenty seven and had
Speaker 1: been missing since the second of September. And what else
Speaker 1: these women have in common, Well, there's actually quite a
Speaker 1: few commonalities. All four were prostest suits. They apparently had
Speaker 1: all been using Craigslist to advertise their services. I've read
Speaker 1: that all but Maureen had also been using another website
Speaker 1: which is called back Page, which I'd never heard of
Speaker 1: and never used. But when I understand it's it's it's
Speaker 1: very similar to Craigslist. I went to back Page, thinking,
Speaker 1: oh God, I'm going to get a virus on my computer.
Speaker 1: Turns that it's just a listing site, just like Craigslist is.
Speaker 1: It's not sex stuff. That's yeah. Um, Amber was at
Speaker 1: the time unknown heroin user, and it's believed that all
Speaker 1: of the women at the time were using most likely cocaine,
Speaker 1: maybe not habitually, but they were cocaine users, probably also
Speaker 1: using marijuana, which you know, if it's it's the business,
Speaker 1: it lends itself to that they all have. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They all were very physically similar, and that kind of
Speaker 1: have this an idea that maybe whoever was doing this
Speaker 1: had a type, because they also were all very similar.
Speaker 1: They were all under five ft six inches tall or
Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty seven centimeters or sixteen point five hands,
Speaker 1: uh and about a hundred and ten pounds which is
Speaker 1: equivalent to about fifty km or seven point eight five
Speaker 1: stones or less. And they were all blonde at the time,
Speaker 1: or at least had blonde in their hair, so highlights
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And and like I said this, this
Speaker 1: is pointed to as something to say that whoever did
Speaker 1: this had a quote unquote type. Okay, although I wouldn't
Speaker 1: say so much about the high because I think, you know,
Speaker 1: there isn't the average height of a North American female
Speaker 1: woman like five four Well, some of these ladies were.
Speaker 1: Most of them were five six and under. So most
Speaker 1: of them, actually several of them I thinking was like
Speaker 1: four ten, Yeah, so they were they were all there
Speaker 1: was no it wasn't as if there was a five
Speaker 1: and nine inch tall woman in the mix. And they
Speaker 1: were all under a hundred ten pounds, right, very very thin. Actually,
Speaker 1: if you want to find a woman a strangler and overpower,
Speaker 1: you don't want to be tackling some six foot amazon. Probably, Yeah,
Speaker 1: we need to not go in his basement. He says
Speaker 1: things like that with too much really scares the crap
Speaker 1: out of me. But like for reference, right, like I'm
Speaker 1: five and I don't weigh a hundred and ten pounds like,
Speaker 1: and I don't think I'm searching for compliments here, and
Speaker 1: so like for reference, like if you subtract pounds from me,
Speaker 1: even ten pounds, even if even if I'm a hundred
Speaker 1: twenty pounds, like that's a tiny person, and then add
Speaker 1: a couple inches to me, those are really like pretty scary. Yes,
Speaker 1: And if you have an average male anything, an average
Speaker 1: male in this country is five ft nine and a
Speaker 1: hundred eighty pounds, is that sixty to eighty I think
Speaker 1: I'm ballparking here area, But that that it's not hard
Speaker 1: to overpower somebody who is that much shorter and that
Speaker 1: much lighter than you. So the point is it is
Speaker 1: pointing out that maybe there was a type um when really,
Speaker 1: you know, sixteen and a half hands is just like yeah,
Speaker 1: and I had mentioned this a little bit we were
Speaker 1: talking about Shannon, is that these women were all their
Speaker 1: cause of death was all strangulations. Yeah, So that's why
Speaker 1: I brought that up. We were talking about the secondary
Speaker 1: examination of Shannon's body, of course, was not found in
Speaker 1: Burlapp right, correct. Now, all these women when they disappeared,
Speaker 1: they just evaporated. They were gone, with the exception of
Speaker 1: Melissa because one week after her disappearance, her fifteen year
Speaker 1: old sister Amanda started getting calls from her cell phone.
Speaker 1: But it wasn't Melissa, and she received it's about I
Speaker 1: think it's a total of eight calls. And it happened
Speaker 1: over the course of about a month and a half.
Speaker 1: And this caller got slowly more and more aggressive, and
Speaker 1: it's reported to have been playing with her. That's what
Speaker 1: the reporting will always refer to it as Melissa is
Speaker 1: the one who disappeared in two thousand nine. Yes, okay,
Speaker 1: I mean I'm just thinking, like, why would you do that? Right?
Speaker 1: And I guess in my estimation, I guess two thousand nine.
Speaker 1: And I'm trying to think. I think I had like
Speaker 1: an iPhone. Most people had second iPhone. I mean they weren't.
Speaker 1: It wasn't smartphone mania, but but everybody had a cell
Speaker 1: at that point. Like, did you think Melissa had like
Speaker 1: a picture of her fifteen year old sister sleeve? Well,
Speaker 1: but it could be as simple as little sister Amanda
Speaker 1: was what it said in her phone book? Could have
Speaker 1: said that, or could have it could have been that
Speaker 1: he kept her alive for a while and just got
Speaker 1: some information. Yeah, I I don't know, and what we
Speaker 1: do we do know is that we're pretty sure that
Speaker 1: it wasn't just some random crank because of the things
Speaker 1: that the caller said. Um. Now that the caller always
Speaker 1: got off the phone within three minutes, so calls were
Speaker 1: not traceable. Um, but they do say that, well, they
Speaker 1: couldn't get him to a specific exact address. I know,
Speaker 1: I know, and we're gonna were I know, and we're
Speaker 1: gonna talk about that shortly. But they did. They tracked
Speaker 1: some calls to Time to Square, but obviously nothing happened
Speaker 1: about it because as the police rushed into Times Squared
Speaker 1: looking around for somebody on their cell phone, they saw everybody.
Speaker 1: Uh so they they specifically ran in all the porn
Speaker 1: shops they did. I understand there's a lot of porn
Speaker 1: shops in Times Squares. I I didn't know this, but
Speaker 1: apparently according to this yeah, or at least enough for
Speaker 1: the police to be like, oh, yeah, it's it's this
Speaker 1: one that when this one is where you're gonna go.
Speaker 1: I don't know. But the reason I said that we
Speaker 1: know that this person couldn't have just been some random
Speaker 1: crank is that on the I think it was the
Speaker 1: last call the killer made or the caller, I should say,
Speaker 1: not the killer, but the caller made the statement of
Speaker 1: I'm watching your sister's body rots. It such a wonderful
Speaker 1: thing to say to fifteen year old girl, right, yeah, clean, yeah,
Speaker 1: we real. And anybody who strangles prostitutes probably not like
Speaker 1: the cream of the probably not exactly the most compassionate
Speaker 1: personal And actually, I guess I have one point of clarification,
Speaker 1: because I know we're drawing to the end of this chapter.
Speaker 1: But do you know you may not know this, this
Speaker 1: may not be public knowledge, but the bodies that were
Speaker 1: wrapped in bur lap. Were they wrapped in bur lap
Speaker 1: when they were totally together and then there they rotted
Speaker 1: in the burlap? Or were they did they have some
Speaker 1: did they decompose and then get thrown into the burn
Speaker 1: lap and then thrown in the grown or were they
Speaker 1: like totally bodies. And I don't know for sure. I've
Speaker 1: gotten the impression from all of the stuff that's out
Speaker 1: there that the bodies were wrapped in bur lap upon
Speaker 1: their dumping. And the reason that I think that is
Speaker 1: the the newest body she had only been missing since
Speaker 1: September and this is December, so that's two or three
Speaker 1: months and she was in bur lap, So I have
Speaker 1: to presume that they were in the burlap when they
Speaker 1: were put in the ground. And it's the way I
Speaker 1: understand it is that they were though they were deposited
Speaker 1: at different times, they were in the burlap when they
Speaker 1: were putting into the ground, and they would have been
Speaker 1: relatively fresh. But that's a that's a supposition on my
Speaker 1: part based on all the stuff that i've That's my question, right,
Speaker 1: is because if she was getting all these calls and
Speaker 1: they were going on for like a month, and the
Speaker 1: caller at the end of the months that I'm watching,
Speaker 1: your sister's sicko has got her in the back room somewhere,
Speaker 1: just start watching it raw then wrapped in this But
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not really that important interesting, But yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know. What I'm interested in knowing is the
Speaker 1: police are trying to trace these calls. Did they record
Speaker 1: the calls? I mean, you would think they were likely,
Speaker 1: But why would they ever release those to the public,
Speaker 1: especially since I could think of a case I could
Speaker 1: think of a great reason to listen to the public.
Speaker 1: You might release tidbits, well, and you don't have to
Speaker 1: release everything, but but at least some someones that don't
Speaker 1: give away critical information, because if you had it all
Speaker 1: over the TV news, in the radio, somebody might nice voice. Um,
Speaker 1: it just seems like kind of an obvious thing to
Speaker 1: do that. I will disagree with that because I have
Speaker 1: heard so many people on the phone who sounded like
Speaker 1: other people I knew. I mean, you know, I work
Speaker 1: at a call center, and like people will be like,
Speaker 1: Steve is obviously this dude from this other radio show,
Speaker 1: and we're like, or what's his name from It's always
Speaker 1: sunny in Philadelphia, or Joe Joe is the one who
Speaker 1: gets you. Sir. Would be in jail so fast if
Speaker 1: they put those out, because everybody says you sound like
Speaker 1: everybody else with any kind of baritone voice. I know,
Speaker 1: I know. I'm I'm thinking like more like somebody who
Speaker 1: knows somebody really well, like if you know you know,
Speaker 1: but you know you work with them every day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I just I'm just saying that they're they're totally obviously
Speaker 1: at a dead end on this, and I would say
Speaker 1: that Mary, that would be a good Hall Mary play.
Speaker 1: I think believing that is a trap that you were
Speaker 1: setting yourself up for for a whole bunch of leg words. Oh,
Speaker 1: they never do. They gotta get a lot of false leaves,
Speaker 1: for sure. But I'm just saying, if they really want
Speaker 1: to solve this, I think that that's about the only
Speaker 1: way they're going to be able to do it. Stanford
Speaker 1: Chapter three. Chapter three, I've titled the Dismembered Victims um
Speaker 1: and I think that it probably goes without saying that
Speaker 1: upon the discovery of the four bodies in Burlap, the
Speaker 1: news media went guando crazy and swarmed the area and
Speaker 1: probably like sort of like you know, prompted a lot
Speaker 1: more searching. Oh yeah, it did prop more searching. But
Speaker 1: it also they put out there that it was all
Speaker 1: caps obvious that there was a serial killer at work here. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: the you know this, this forced the cops, as you're saying,
Speaker 1: to kind of step up their game, and uh, they
Speaker 1: kept looking around much much like the the issue with Shannon.
Speaker 1: The cops had to you know, stop for part of
Speaker 1: the growing season, and then in the winter months they
Speaker 1: would start to do their stuff again. But um, so
Speaker 1: they like bad weather, bad weather. When was sandy came No, no,
Speaker 1: this was before Sandy came through this and two thousand
Speaker 1: and eleven is when we're moving into But yes, and
Speaker 1: he was two thousand twelve. It was it was Neumber
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven. Okay, it was there for Sandy. How
Speaker 1: was it non event where I was? So the police
Speaker 1: kept searching and after the initial discovery they had waited
Speaker 1: a couple of months and then so again that industrial
Speaker 1: discovery was December. We moved into March of eleven when
Speaker 1: things were defrosting, and the police start their search on
Speaker 1: the twenty nine of March, and depending on the source,
Speaker 1: either that very day or the following day they found
Speaker 1: they found a partial set of remains, and that was
Speaker 1: a head, hands, and four arms um and those, by
Speaker 1: the way, were linked to the torso of a body
Speaker 1: of a woman named Jessica Taylor. She, by the way,
Speaker 1: was these parts were not wrapped in burlap. Jessica was
Speaker 1: was also a prostitute. And the torso had already been found, right,
Speaker 1: torso had been found. The torso had been found in
Speaker 1: two thousand and three on the twenty six of July
Speaker 1: in the town of Manorville, New York, which is it's
Speaker 1: like ten or twelve miles away from Yogo Beach Ballpark
Speaker 1: is the crow flies. The parts they found. Were they
Speaker 1: just bo Yeah, they were partial remains. The state of
Speaker 1: them is not listed, but I would imagine that after
Speaker 1: that amount of time, we're basically talking about skeletal remains.
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that any time the
Speaker 1: police say partial remains, they just mean two gruesome. For
Speaker 1: public consumption, probably for most of us, the whole idea
Speaker 1: of chopping up a dead body is, you know, kind
Speaker 1: of unthinkable. Let's go, let's move on. Okay, So we're
Speaker 1: gonna move on to the fourth of April of at
Speaker 1: which point three more bodies are found. Uh. These bodies
Speaker 1: are found deeper in the brush, off the side of
Speaker 1: the road, and they are also not wrapped in burlap
Speaker 1: like Jessica. One of the sets of remains found that
Speaker 1: day were partial. They were also linked to an unknown
Speaker 1: woman's torso that was found in Manerville or Mannerville excuse me,
Speaker 1: on the nineteen November two thousand. Well that's kind of
Speaker 1: wonder what this did of the property values out there
Speaker 1: in Mannerville Beach, both of them. Yeah, No, it didn't
Speaker 1: do good things for either of them. One of the
Speaker 1: other bodies was identity The identity is unknown, but the
Speaker 1: body was determined to be that of an Asian man
Speaker 1: who was wearing women's clothing, and the last body to
Speaker 1: be found was that of a toddler who was wrapped
Speaker 1: in a blanket and her identity is yet unknown. They
Speaker 1: were is terrible to point out, but again not entirely
Speaker 1: intact based on how long they had been there. But
Speaker 1: you know, that could have just been animals, animals, wave action,
Speaker 1: everything like that. We don't know if they were scattered
Speaker 1: intentionally or just over time. But they were all on
Speaker 1: a pretty close part. They were all at a very
Speaker 1: close radius. Yes, yeah, so so you got like, so
Speaker 1: we got the four bur laps, we've got the two
Speaker 1: Torso murders. Well, we've got four sets of remains. No
Speaker 1: that we've got four bur laps. We did have an
Speaker 1: additional four sets of remains that are found. Part of
Speaker 1: those are the torsos that were tied to the Manorville
Speaker 1: Manorville's torsos. Yeah, and well, am I catting wrong side?
Speaker 1: I think there's like, you don't do your math now, Joe.
Speaker 1: We're not done. We're not done. Stop that. I can
Speaker 1: see where you're going when you're when you're counting on
Speaker 1: your fingers. I know what you're doing. Um, because we're sorry.
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, at some point we will
Speaker 1: do like a live taping of podcasts, probably so people
Speaker 1: can see what a cluster it is, and mostly so
Speaker 1: that everybody can see the faces that I think people are, like,
Speaker 1: you're so insensitive, but like, if you could see the
Speaker 1: faces that we all make when we're talking about this,
Speaker 1: you understand that. Yeah, one of us just just forge
Speaker 1: us through and keeps talking and just uh so we're okay,
Speaker 1: So we're not done yet. Yeah, we've got the Asian
Speaker 1: man and the toddler. On the eleventh of April, two
Speaker 1: more sets of her remains are found farther down the beach.
Speaker 1: One set of it was a set of human bones
Speaker 1: in a plastic bag, and the other was just a skull.
Speaker 1: The skull yeah sorry. The skull would later be connected
Speaker 1: to a pair of severed legs that were found in
Speaker 1: April of on Fire Island to the east. The skull
Speaker 1: and the legs were never connected to any other body parts, well,
Speaker 1: originally they were before they were separated. Another I would
Speaker 1: think every time you found a set of body parts,
Speaker 1: you know, out there on the island, you just directly
Speaker 1: go over to Manerville and start looking for the tour. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's not a bad point, um. But the skull and
Speaker 1: the legs that it was eventually connected to, we're also
Speaker 1: we're run through DNA testing. By the way, the identity
Speaker 1: of that individual is unknown, and that was then connected
Speaker 1: and determined to be the mother of the toddler that
Speaker 1: was found on the fourth of April. You had asked
Speaker 1: for this story, what one of minor listeners that you
Speaker 1: guys asked. Yeah, Now, I did a bunch of reading
Speaker 1: for links that weren't focused on the Craigslist or the
Speaker 1: prostitution angle, UM, and I came across some accounts from
Speaker 1: the families of the identified victims. So of these now
Speaker 1: not counting Shannon, ten bodies that we've come across, and
Speaker 1: it turns out they're the ones that have been identified.
Speaker 1: Just as an again a kind of a global what
Speaker 1: is their connections? They were they were all prostitutes at
Speaker 1: one point or at some point. Yeah, probably not the
Speaker 1: Tyler um. And it's it's not a lock that all
Speaker 1: of these women were on drugs, Like we kind of
Speaker 1: know that the first four were. Um. But you'll see
Speaker 1: that brought up in the reading you'll also see Heroin
Speaker 1: brought up in the reading, so it's it's a very
Speaker 1: it's a very close circle of these things, but there's
Speaker 1: not a whole lot. It's not as if they all
Speaker 1: work for, say the same pimp or something like that,
Speaker 1: so it's it's very hard to tie them all together.
Speaker 1: I also, this is really you ever read something as
Speaker 1: you're doing reading or researching, like, I've never heard that
Speaker 1: phrase before, and I kind of wish I never had.
Speaker 1: And I came across the phrase the missing missing, which
Speaker 1: is one of the most heartbreaking that I've seen this before.
Speaker 1: I had to be honest with you when I see
Speaker 1: this in research, I stopped researching case because I can't.
Speaker 1: It's too too much, too much for me. For people
Speaker 1: who don't know the missing missing are people who don't
Speaker 1: have anyone close enough to them to notice that they
Speaker 1: are gone to file a missing person's report. So they
Speaker 1: are truly they have just disappeared from the face of
Speaker 1: the earth and nobody uh, you know, close enough to
Speaker 1: notice and report it or notices and just assumes they
Speaker 1: want somewhere else. Yeah, that's so sad to me. Sure
Speaker 1: that that's an ideal victim for a serial killer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So I mean there's there's there's certain demographics that are
Speaker 1: focused upon Yeah, and especially prostitutes because obviously that's easy.
Speaker 1: It's a dangerous lifestyle. Well, it's it's easy to get
Speaker 1: a prostitute to come with the climb into your car
Speaker 1: with you, or coming to meet you somewhere. Drug addicts
Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, you know, you say, oh yeah, yeah, no, um,
Speaker 1: come come with me. I'll take you to where we
Speaker 1: can get some. And that's that's the hard part, is it.
Speaker 1: And I you know, we talked about this a little
Speaker 1: bit in the last story. It does I don't want
Speaker 1: to sound like I'm bashing anybody. Yeah, Like in that story,
Speaker 1: I openly admit that I had an issue with somebody
Speaker 1: in this. I'm not intending to come across as bashing anybody.
Speaker 1: There are just a million reasons that someone gets into
Speaker 1: that lifestyle, and I'm not saying that, I'm not saying
Speaker 1: anything against it. It's a choice. It's well it's not
Speaker 1: always a choice actually, so well, sometimes people are forced
Speaker 1: into it. Yeah, so it's it's it's really hard to
Speaker 1: try and put a finger on any of it. But
Speaker 1: but let's let's move away from that because I just
Speaker 1: want to finish up before we get into theories. What
Speaker 1: Joe started to ask about before, which is the count.
Speaker 1: If you've kept count including Shannon, I am at eleven bodies.
Speaker 1: Shannon should not be included that, but I did at
Speaker 1: the beginning say that there was twelve or more. And
Speaker 1: I did that on purpose because when you read the
Speaker 1: reporting now, any time a body is found on any
Speaker 1: of the Barrier Islands off of the southeast side of
Speaker 1: Long Island, they are or somebody goes missing, they are
Speaker 1: immediately connected to the Long Island serial killer. And there
Speaker 1: are so many that are immediately discovered what actually happened
Speaker 1: and pulled back off. Recently, in the last year or two,
Speaker 1: there have been at least four women's bodies that have
Speaker 1: been found, whether whole or partial, who the investigators are
Speaker 1: still unclear if they are connected or are not connected.
Speaker 1: And that's again, and then there's other ones that have
Speaker 1: gone missing and been found and then it was figured
Speaker 1: out what happened and they're definitely not related. But a
Speaker 1: lot of women seem to be dying in this area,
Speaker 1: so at least are dumped in this area. Yes, that
Speaker 1: is a very as a very good point to mand. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, so I not to jump the gun.
Speaker 1: I think it could be all kinds of different killers
Speaker 1: out there. Well, Joe's Joe's already putting out a theory,
Speaker 1: so we should probably get into theories. So theory number one,
Speaker 1: dury number one, is that this is all the work
Speaker 1: of a single serial killer. Okay, So just to clarify,
Speaker 1: the dismembered bodies were found in fairly relatively close proximity
Speaker 1: to the Burlap ones, right, they're on the same road
Speaker 1: on that island actually, but but I mean we're pretty
Speaker 1: close to each other, right, relatively speaking. Yes, but um so,
Speaker 1: but you always hear it's this is all all the
Speaker 1: work of a single killer. Um and it is a
Speaker 1: prostitute obsessed serial killer who loves to use Oak Island
Speaker 1: as their dumping well, and this would be one of
Speaker 1: the most prolific serial killers in the history of the
Speaker 1: United States, wouldn't it not. Now, there's there's been some
Speaker 1: people who were well racked up some higher numbers. If
Speaker 1: you take the top highest number I've heard for this
Speaker 1: one is seventeen you know, confirmed. Yeah, but that's not
Speaker 1: necessarily done by the same Well. Yeah, and there's well,
Speaker 1: there's guys like B. T. K. He took big gaps,
Speaker 1: but he did quite a few of The Green River
Speaker 1: Killer did a bunch. Um. Gay Cy had quite a
Speaker 1: few people under his house. I don't know how many
Speaker 1: he ate. Um. But you know what scares me about
Speaker 1: him is that he worked in a chocolate factory. Can
Speaker 1: we stop this please? Okay? So logically, logically speaking, it
Speaker 1: makes sense to think that it's just a single killer.
Speaker 1: They've got a thing for prostitutes, and they found this
Speaker 1: great place to dump all the bodies. Um. As we've
Speaker 1: just talked about. You know, we've listed off some people.
Speaker 1: Gary Ridgeway, who was the Green River Killer here in
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest. He dumped all his bodies in the
Speaker 1: same place all the time. Um. There's two guys. There's
Speaker 1: Robert Shulman and Joel Rifkin. They're famous examples. UM. And
Speaker 1: they were actually very their local to the area there
Speaker 1: in New York in jail by, Like, wasn't he thank
Speaker 1: you for just stepping all over that. Good job, Joe. Um.
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna talk about that in just a second. Um. Now,
Speaker 1: well you know what Ridgeway I mean. I mentioned him
Speaker 1: as an example He's by no means a viable Kennedys
Speaker 1: on the wrong side of the fricking country. People can
Speaker 1: travel airplane. Yeah, but he was very, very prolific in
Speaker 1: in the Washington area. But Shulman and Rifken are always
Speaker 1: called possibilities. Typically they were only connected to the older bodies.
Speaker 1: And that is because, as Joe said that there's some
Speaker 1: you know, being in jail and arrested issues. Showman worked
Speaker 1: twelve miles away from where the bodies were found. Rifkin
Speaker 1: worked or lived ten miles away from where they were found.
Speaker 1: But Solman was arrested nineties six and then executed in
Speaker 1: two thousand six, and Rifkin began his two hundred and
Speaker 1: three year prison sentence in might be too short. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think they were light on him, but you know,
Speaker 1: that's just me. But since we're in the serial, let's
Speaker 1: talk about a couple of things that are pointed out
Speaker 1: and we can kind of talk about it if you want.
Speaker 1: These are things that are always pointed to. People always
Speaker 1: say that the killer had to have intimate knowledge of
Speaker 1: the area to know where to dump the bodies. It's
Speaker 1: kind of a pull off on the road. Ocean ocean
Speaker 1: Parkway is the main road that runs the length of
Speaker 1: the island, which it's it's two lanes in each direction
Speaker 1: with the what is it when you call the natural
Speaker 1: medium between and when it's scrub rushing grass, So it's
Speaker 1: not four lanes connected the two lanes anyway, Median media,
Speaker 1: thank you. I wasn't sure if a median actually met
Speaker 1: the stupid concrete k rails or anything delineating the two
Speaker 1: as a medium. I think I'm not so sure that
Speaker 1: you would have had to have an intimate knowledge because
Speaker 1: they're pretty geographically, they're pretty damn simple. Yeah, And you'll
Speaker 1: also hear people saying, well if he if he didn't
Speaker 1: live on the island, people say it had to be
Speaker 1: a resident of the island. But if it wasn't a
Speaker 1: resident of the island, then they had to at least
Speaker 1: spend some time, say summering there. So now now they're
Speaker 1: saying it's a summering tourist who stays in that area.
Speaker 1: I feel like, Okay, so I'm gonna admit something, and
Speaker 1: I'm going to say that it's because we do this podcast,
Speaker 1: but maybe not. But do you guys ever just drive
Speaker 1: through an area and you go, oh, crap. You could
Speaker 1: totally drop a body there. No. I have looked off
Speaker 1: and go I wonder, I wonder what's down that little
Speaker 1: that little something, that little access road area right there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it's not like and you can do that one time, right,
Speaker 1: and if you're a serial killer, you can stop. You stop,
Speaker 1: and you think, oh yeah, no, this would totally be
Speaker 1: a good spot. You only have to go past there once, right,
Speaker 1: You don't have to have been there, you don't have
Speaker 1: to live there, you don't have to be summering there
Speaker 1: every summer since boyhood. You don't like any of that stuff.
Speaker 1: And it's very it's very easy to do that kind
Speaker 1: of stuff and not get in trouble um, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean there's there's weird little spots on the road
Speaker 1: between my house and the main drag and I've had
Speaker 1: to pull off. And when I pulled off into this
Speaker 1: weird gravel area, I realized that there was another road
Speaker 1: that led away. I was like, well, that's strange. Well,
Speaker 1: if somebody had come up and said, hey, what do
Speaker 1: you do? And this is railroad property, which I realized
Speaker 1: by the sign that I read once I was stopped
Speaker 1: and I said, I'm sorry, I stopped. I'm trying to
Speaker 1: figure out where I'm at and keep going, and nobody
Speaker 1: would ever be as yes, right, sorry, I was trying
Speaker 1: to find a private place to just you know, take Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's gonna open the car door and I want to
Speaker 1: be facing the road. Sorry about that. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: there's a million things. And that's also something that they
Speaker 1: always say is that the killer had to have a vehicle,
Speaker 1: which actually totally makes sense supportunately les. The thing, however,
Speaker 1: is rentals. Yeah, well I doubt they were using Uber. No.
Speaker 1: But if it were me, and again I'm sorry to
Speaker 1: say this in this room, but I'm a small female,
Speaker 1: so you guys can take me if you like, have to, um,
Speaker 1: but if I were trying to dispose of a body,
Speaker 1: I would rent a car. Quen Joe, get the trunk.
Speaker 1: We're gonna shove in that sense, I mean, right, I
Speaker 1: wouldn't use my own car. Why would you use your
Speaker 1: own car a bunch of times, you know, the off
Speaker 1: chance that somebody sees you dumping the body. Okay, No,
Speaker 1: I I gotta say that if if if I am
Speaker 1: intending to dump a body, I'm probably not going to
Speaker 1: do it in the daytime. Well, I'm gonna do it
Speaker 1: at night, and I'm probably gonna have something that is,
Speaker 1: you know, semi sheltered, so I can pull off, so
Speaker 1: not blatantly sitting on the side of the road, but
Speaker 1: I could just pull my car off the side road
Speaker 1: and get out of the car, stand in the bushes wait,
Speaker 1: knowing that Okay, if I see lights, it takes five
Speaker 1: minutes for those lights to get me, run to the car,
Speaker 1: open the trunk, and drag the body away like it
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be some super and then if if
Speaker 1: somebody pulls up, you just stay in the bushes. But
Speaker 1: I just I guess the reason I would do a
Speaker 1: you know, I would do a rental car is not
Speaker 1: for the license plate or anything like that, but at
Speaker 1: the very least evidence left in the trunk or the
Speaker 1: sea from all these women in your car. Like, no,
Speaker 1: there's no way to track they can pin one on you.
Speaker 1: There'll be d NA, I mean, but you know burlap. Yeah,
Speaker 1: hopefully by the time by the time they find you
Speaker 1: and check your credit card records and find that you
Speaker 1: rented a car, they somehow managed to track down the car.
Speaker 1: They probably had had it detailed. You know, numerous times
Speaker 1: you know, and all kinds of people have been in
Speaker 1: and out of that trunk and stuff, and then it's
Speaker 1: one single eyewitness thing. Yeah, I saw a car. I
Speaker 1: think this was a license plate. You can always well,
Speaker 1: you know, and people's recollection of license plates is terrible
Speaker 1: because like, um, I think I told you too. This
Speaker 1: was this summer, my wife's car got backed into in
Speaker 1: a hardware store parking lot and some guy was standing
Speaker 1: there and watch the yo, yo that did it get
Speaker 1: out of his car, get back into his car and
Speaker 1: drive away, and he's like the license plate was and
Speaker 1: he stops and you can see like this whole process
Speaker 1: in his head, and he spat out the license plate number.
Speaker 1: But he was wrong because we looked at the security
Speaker 1: issue a video he had. One of the the alphabet
Speaker 1: characters was incorrect. So I mean, but but that is
Speaker 1: a guy who was standing in a in a very
Speaker 1: stable environment and then resting it, and who actually had
Speaker 1: a reason to look at that license number. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Not somebody driving. But realistically, yes, there had to be
Speaker 1: a vehicle involved, but that person did not necessarily to
Speaker 1: own a vehicle. Correct. The next thing you're going to
Speaker 1: be pointed to when you do all of this is,
Speaker 1: which is actually kind of likely, is that he would
Speaker 1: have frequented prostitutes, and he could very well have been
Speaker 1: a John that these women had been with before they
Speaker 1: were killed as an and a time before or an
Speaker 1: encounter before, because it turns out if a John finds
Speaker 1: a woman who does what he likes, he's likely to
Speaker 1: go back. I also suspect I am not a prostitute,
Speaker 1: nor have I ever been a prostitute, nor do I
Speaker 1: know anything about the profession of being a prostitute. However,
Speaker 1: I would expect that um, a prostitute is tending to
Speaker 1: be a much more on guard and have a lot
Speaker 1: more backups. The first time, they mean, then if they
Speaker 1: have a rapport with that person and they know he
Speaker 1: was harmless missionary and then cried, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: that's the sort of thing. And then you get you
Speaker 1: get with him a couple of times. He seems like
Speaker 1: a nice die and you're like, you know what, pack
Speaker 1: you go away for a couple hours. Mr Drivers, Fine,
Speaker 1: he's a john, and then suddenly you disappear and the
Speaker 1: drivers the driver has no idea because you didn't never
Speaker 1: tell the driver what we were doing. Well, now the
Speaker 1: murdered women had a driver that we know no, but
Speaker 1: even like, yeah, we don't have that kind of detail,
Speaker 1: but you know, you would assume that maybe it's possible
Speaker 1: that even the most careful prostitute the first couple of
Speaker 1: times would have somebody that for the first couple of
Speaker 1: times and then they would be used to it. So
Speaker 1: it is I think it is probably likely. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: and in the reading to to to address a little
Speaker 1: bit of both of you said, is that some of
Speaker 1: these women, uh, they had they had their pimp and
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of times they're out doing
Speaker 1: their job and I'm using air quotes around their job,
Speaker 1: but they're out there trying to make money and their
Speaker 1: pimp is not with them. The pimp says, go make money,
Speaker 1: come back and let me see it, and then I
Speaker 1: will give you your cod. So they would know, like
Speaker 1: they're one of these ladies who's one of the burlat
Speaker 1: victims whose um pimp's name I cannot think of at
Speaker 1: this moment, was like, I had no idea what she
Speaker 1: was doing. They tracked him down. He was like, I
Speaker 1: had no idea what she's doing. She had to that, believe,
Speaker 1: blie Bleep had to just come back and have the money,
Speaker 1: or I beat the crap out of her. I mean
Speaker 1: that that's that's the scenario that a lot of these
Speaker 1: people are in. So so it's very it's very likely
Speaker 1: that had previous encounters um And they say, not surprisingly
Speaker 1: that obviously this guy must have had access to burlap,
Speaker 1: which is funny because if anybody has worked with burlap,
Speaker 1: you would know that it is not nearly as common
Speaker 1: as it once was. It's kind of hard to get
Speaker 1: a hold of anymore. Yeah, when I was a kid
Speaker 1: on potatoes came in burlap bags and stuff. But now
Speaker 1: nylon sacks have replaced burlap. You'll tend to see used
Speaker 1: to see in like feed like stock for animals, but
Speaker 1: now it's all vinyl and there's bur lap is not
Speaker 1: nearly as common in you keep directing this towards me.
Speaker 1: My confused look is because my place of work stocks burlap.
Speaker 1: Like the world is ending, so I mean, like it's
Speaker 1: for me, you would be, Yeah, there are applications, but
Speaker 1: they're very They're more specialized now and more finite than
Speaker 1: they used to store, and they've got bur lap. The
Speaker 1: point is it is it is not as common, so
Speaker 1: therefore it's easier to track down, but they haven't figured
Speaker 1: out any any sources. So we've way on on all this.
Speaker 1: I want to get to the official So that's part
Speaker 1: of the profile. The other part of the profile here
Speaker 1: is that, according to either the police of the FBI,
Speaker 1: I think it's the police, but I'm not positive, our
Speaker 1: killer is a white male shocking uh in his mid
Speaker 1: twenties to mid forties. And yeah, because of the fact
Speaker 1: that he didn't stay on the phone for very long
Speaker 1: with Amanda, which again that was Melissa's little sister. Um,
Speaker 1: he and avoided all the detection, he must have a
Speaker 1: and I'm using quotes here because this is what you
Speaker 1: see it as quoted as detailed or intimate knowledge of
Speaker 1: police techniques. Well that's why thing is that you watch
Speaker 1: Law and Order, but you know c s ide with
Speaker 1: a side of bones thrown in and you know exactly
Speaker 1: how all that happens, because Hollywood has been throwing all
Speaker 1: of those police procedures at us for decades. So yeah,
Speaker 1: so that's that's just the silliness to me. Um, I mean,
Speaker 1: any want to be killer could just do that. Um.
Speaker 1: The other problem that I have with this thing this
Speaker 1: is so that's one of my problems with when they
Speaker 1: say it's you know, it's just detailed intimate knowledge, is
Speaker 1: an insider or some related thing. I have problems with it.
Speaker 1: But the other thing that I have an issue with
Speaker 1: is that each set of victims appears to have possibly
Speaker 1: been killed in a different manner, So it's like they're
Speaker 1: at least three killers at work here. I would say, well,
Speaker 1: there's a victims, we know they're strangled. The dismembered victims.
Speaker 1: We don't know how they were killed exactly, but they
Speaker 1: were dismembered, stabbed or something. Well, somebody had taken the
Speaker 1: time to make the cause of death was probably something different,
Speaker 1: and likely a sharp device was involved to break the
Speaker 1: body apart into pieces to be dumped in place. I
Speaker 1: guess my real problem with this, sorry, do you want
Speaker 1: to finish all? My really big problem with this is that, like,
Speaker 1: if this is the same serial killer, they are de escalating, right,
Speaker 1: They're changing there, They're changing their there also de escalating
Speaker 1: right from mutilating and chopping, the mutilating and chopping a
Speaker 1: body up to simply wrapping it in burlap and burying
Speaker 1: it in the shallow, almost in a reverent manner, Compared
Speaker 1: to the violence of probably there's some like some psychologists
Speaker 1: could probably say like they're coming to terms with the
Speaker 1: childhood trauma that they had been facing when they write
Speaker 1: that they were like dismembering their mother figure and now
Speaker 1: they're coming to terms with it, and so they're burying
Speaker 1: her in a shroud. Right, Okay, fine, I'm sure something.
Speaker 1: But in my in our you know, years of being
Speaker 1: armchair experts, they don't, they don't de escalate, and you
Speaker 1: don't go from totally mutilating and dismembering women and toddlers
Speaker 1: to wrapping women respectiually in trous and burying them all
Speaker 1: in a shallow grave. But you just don't do that.
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen. So that's my big problem with that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it is, it's it's such a
Speaker 1: wild swing. Now now I will admit before because somebody
Speaker 1: I know was gonna say, you know, wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: serial killers have been known to change their disposal methods different. Well,
Speaker 1: but there's it's it's always situational. Like I was talking
Speaker 1: about who's Gaysy the clown killer. You know, he used
Speaker 1: to bury people under his house, but he did also
Speaker 1: throw a couple of people in the river. But that
Speaker 1: was situational. It was it was you know, the circumstances
Speaker 1: were what they word. It wasn't as if he just went,
Speaker 1: you know, there's just too many people under my house.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start putting him in the river. No, he
Speaker 1: didn't do that at all. So circumstances, I mean, I
Speaker 1: can't see actually burying the bodies under my house any
Speaker 1: of these things. The reason I don't like the single
Speaker 1: killer theory at all, well, if you look at if
Speaker 1: you look at the aerials of the island alone, of
Speaker 1: the islands out there, it's got three causeways connecting it
Speaker 1: to Long Island, and also there's a causeway that goes
Speaker 1: to Fire Island that branches off and also goes to
Speaker 1: Oak Island. So in other words, it's the most easily
Speaker 1: accessible of any of those islands. But it's still remote
Speaker 1: and like you say, long straight level roads, you can
Speaker 1: see somebody coming from miles away, and so it's an
Speaker 1: ideal place to get rid of bodies. So I'm not
Speaker 1: surprised that a bunch of different people dumped their bodies
Speaker 1: out there. Of course they did. This may be like
Speaker 1: super cynical of me, but I'm sure there's some network
Speaker 1: of serial killers out there, right, There's got to be
Speaker 1: some network of like dudes who like to kill people.
Speaker 1: So okay, we save that for I think the second
Speaker 1: or second to last or last theory. We're going to
Speaker 1: move into the next one, which Joe has obviously chosen
Speaker 1: as his favorite, which is the several unconnected serial killers
Speaker 1: or unconnected killers just killers. Indeed, guess some of these
Speaker 1: look kind of look like one offs, like the skeleton
Speaker 1: found in a bag, you know, it's it seems like
Speaker 1: a one off. The two torsos in Manorville seem kind
Speaker 1: of like a weird, isolated set, like there's there's there's
Speaker 1: not a whole other than the fact that these ladies
Speaker 1: were ladies of the night and may or may not
Speaker 1: have been heavy drug users at the time. And I
Speaker 1: say may or may not because some of them were.
Speaker 1: We do know some, but that that's not that doesn't
Speaker 1: isn't any consequence. But other than that is the sort
Speaker 1: of semi commonality between them. Egg. Yeah, But the point
Speaker 1: is is that, yeah, there's there's not a whole lot
Speaker 1: that sinks them up. So it's very easy to say, well,
Speaker 1: let's just say it's serial killers. Okay, let's just let's
Speaker 1: just ignore the random kill and say it's a serial killer.
Speaker 1: Then it's very easy to say that this is two
Speaker 1: or three who just happened to go. Hey, you know,
Speaker 1: I drove down that road and I figured out this
Speaker 1: place to pull off, and nobody's gonna see. Mean I
Speaker 1: can I can just chuck a body. Yeah, that's what
Speaker 1: I do. Actually, by the way, there for a while
Speaker 1: I had a great place to dumb bodies. Not too more,
Speaker 1: but stop it. We'll talk about yourself in trouble. But
Speaker 1: you know, the other thing is is that because of
Speaker 1: the proximity to docks and stuff. I mean, it's it's
Speaker 1: makes itself, it lends itself to it kind of a
Speaker 1: Dexter scenario where there could be somebody who's killing even
Speaker 1: more but occasionally can't get to the boat and so
Speaker 1: has to dump a body because obviously, if you haven't
Speaker 1: seen Dexter spoiler art, uh, he chopped up bodies and
Speaker 1: dumped him in the ocean. So but it's it's that
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Okay, So we're gonna move on to
Speaker 1: the next theory. Uh. The next theory is that the
Speaker 1: culprit is Dr Peter Hackett. If you remember when we
Speaker 1: were talking about Shannon, he's the guy that's supposedly Shannon
Speaker 1: and Joe Brewer went whose house they went to to
Speaker 1: get more drugs? He Um, yeah, he is, Uh, he's
Speaker 1: at least in my mind. Um, from what I've read
Speaker 1: about him, the guy is a braggart. He talks a lot,
Speaker 1: and he likes to be the center of attention, and
Speaker 1: he has a tendency to to kind of overstate his
Speaker 1: involvement in things and his responsibilities. Um, and we'll get
Speaker 1: we're gonna link this back in, but let me just
Speaker 1: explain this guy here. Hackett was an emergency response specialist
Speaker 1: and he was involved in some pretty big operations. But
Speaker 1: like I said, he kind of he overstated his roles
Speaker 1: and responsibilities and badly so. He did it to the
Speaker 1: media in six um with the t w A eight
Speaker 1: hundred flight, which got him into a lot of hot
Speaker 1: water with his employers. Here's a question. He is actually
Speaker 1: a doctor. He is he is. He is a doctor,
Speaker 1: and he is not like you know, a general practitioner
Speaker 1: or a surgeon or anything like that. He his doctor.
Speaker 1: But he went into emergency medical situations. He really went
Speaker 1: into more of like a administrative kind of situation. So
Speaker 1: he was never operating on people who's not He was
Speaker 1: not for a very long time out in the field.
Speaker 1: And that's because of the fact that you know Hackett,
Speaker 1: as we'll talk about shortly, he's got um a handicap
Speaker 1: for for his mobility for being out in the field.
Speaker 1: And so that's why I think that he though he
Speaker 1: is a doctor, he never went out and did it
Speaker 1: in that fashion. So as he had trouble fine nigger
Speaker 1: keeping employments. Since this whole thing became a thing, turns
Speaker 1: out he was pretty close to retirement, so I didn't
Speaker 1: really bother him. I'm pretty sure that at this point
Speaker 1: he basically retired because he moved to Florida. I think
Speaker 1: I think he moved out of the Oak, the community
Speaker 1: that he lived in, and then moved to Florida. I
Speaker 1: want to say it was in two thousand and twelve
Speaker 1: or two thousand and thirteen, so which you know, moved Florida, retire,
Speaker 1: so it didn't really hurt him. So this, uh, this
Speaker 1: is actually a thing. Though, are people out there that
Speaker 1: really believed that Peter Hacker Hackett Peter Hackett. Oh, there
Speaker 1: are people who are so convinced that he is responsible. Um,
Speaker 1: So here's the thing, and he did some really stupid stuff,
Speaker 1: but when when it came to Shannon, because she's obviously
Speaker 1: our catalyst, and this is how he's brought into the
Speaker 1: stories to supposed drug exchange. Well, also, he apparently called
Speaker 1: Shannon's mother and the morning after she had had run
Speaker 1: away and said that he ran a rehab for wayward
Speaker 1: girls out of his home and that he had taken
Speaker 1: care of her and she had left the day after
Speaker 1: she disappeared and she should be home. Yeah. The problem
Speaker 1: is that when he was pressed about this call, he
Speaker 1: said he never made the call, though there are phone
Speaker 1: records between Hackett and Mary, and then when the records
Speaker 1: were hold up and and shown, then he kept changing
Speaker 1: his story slash recollection of why they talked on the phone. Okay,
Speaker 1: here's a question. Was this before they found out the
Speaker 1: police found out the whole story that she was, you know,
Speaker 1: at the house for the prostitution and all that stuff,
Speaker 1: or was it after it would have been after it
Speaker 1: would have been after the police found out about it
Speaker 1: last time, I mean Brewer, as soon as the cops
Speaker 1: showed up, you know, Mary, Mary called because Okay, what
Speaker 1: happens is Shannon disappears and she doesn't come home that morning,
Speaker 1: and I believe it's later the after later in the day.
Speaker 1: Uh so she just she are nine one. One call
Speaker 1: was at four fifty am. Later that very same day,
Speaker 1: her boyfriend Alex the guy said she was living with.
Speaker 1: He calls Pack to find out what's going on, and
Speaker 1: then that triggers the whole chain of events for the
Speaker 1: police to get involved. Okay, I guess because my question
Speaker 1: is is like if you know if, but I don't
Speaker 1: know that police were searching for her right away. In
Speaker 1: other words, they didn't search that very you know, right,
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I guess it could have been
Speaker 1: a you know, Hackett is a friend of God. What's
Speaker 1: his name, Brewer, Brewer, you know, and Brewer says she disappeared,
Speaker 1: like Pack said she disappeared, and you know, Hackets like,
Speaker 1: I'm sure she's fine, I'll call her parents. Here's the thing,
Speaker 1: Hackett doesn't know Shannon. How the hell did he get
Speaker 1: her mother's phone number? That's that's that's why there's so
Speaker 1: much suspicion on him, is it's the day after she's disappeared,
Speaker 1: and he's calling her mother. Well, but I guess for
Speaker 1: me it's it's not so weird, right, Alex calls pack
Speaker 1: right and packs like crap, Like we don't know where
Speaker 1: she is, she didn't come home. Okay, we should do
Speaker 1: some damage control here, Um, Brewer, can you know you can't? Um?
Speaker 1: Who do we know that can corroborate that she was
Speaker 1: a lot? Okay? Hackett you guys want Hacketts? Okay, Alex,
Speaker 1: what how can we get hold? Yeah? I don't think
Speaker 1: it's all that suspicious, but but people, but I'm saying
Speaker 1: is that people say, well, how the hell did he
Speaker 1: get that? People really find him suspicious and the fact
Speaker 1: that he has access to prescription drugs, People say, well,
Speaker 1: look at this. He has supposedly made statements or offers
Speaker 1: to people that he could get them what they needed
Speaker 1: and all they needed do was asked. And I'll be
Speaker 1: honest with you, I'm fifty fifty on whether that's real
Speaker 1: or not, because, like I said, he mean he's a murderer.
Speaker 1: You know it doesn't I mean, you know, it does
Speaker 1: not mean he's a murderer. But people also say, well,
Speaker 1: he maybe he dumped her behind his house. Because if
Speaker 1: you use the criteria that we talked about in the
Speaker 1: first theory. He lives on the island, so he would
Speaker 1: know the island very well. And obviously he has a
Speaker 1: vehicle because he drives to and from every day white
Speaker 1: male in his forties. He is a white male that
Speaker 1: is in his at the time late fifties or really sixties,
Speaker 1: so he's outside of the range there. Um. The marsh
Speaker 1: or the swamp that Shannon's body was found in, uh,
Speaker 1: it flows past the rear of his home and then
Speaker 1: it flows to It does flow to where she was found,
Speaker 1: but to give credit, everybody that lives on that side
Speaker 1: of the street, the marsh flows by their houses. So
Speaker 1: that's that's not iron clad, but there's there's a rule
Speaker 1: among serial killers, which is you don't crap in your
Speaker 1: own nest. That's true, We're gonna die at the end
Speaker 1: of this episode. This is never going to reach air. Um.
Speaker 1: The problem with saying that that Hackett is responsible for,
Speaker 1: if anything, at least for shin In, if not all
Speaker 1: of these murders is, you know who would have to
Speaker 1: be in cahoots with him, his wife, because she would
Speaker 1: know if he's you know, going out at weird hours
Speaker 1: of the nuns and then coming home covered in dirt
Speaker 1: from digging a shallow gray It was just that doing
Speaker 1: a little midnight gardening. Wife, you come home late. Yeah,
Speaker 1: does wake up the time most of the time. But
Speaker 1: you know what else, if I'm digging, you know what happens,
Speaker 1: dirt all over me. The other problem is is that
Speaker 1: for him, this is a sandy area for him to
Speaker 1: be able to navigate, to drag a body out and
Speaker 1: then dig a ditch. The problem that I have is
Speaker 1: that Hackett was he stopped to help somebody many many
Speaker 1: years ago. He stopped to help somebody who was in
Speaker 1: a car accident. He himself was then hit by another
Speaker 1: motorist and he lost one of his legs. He yeah,
Speaker 1: he only has one like he has prosthetic and he
Speaker 1: gets around on it well enough that a lot of
Speaker 1: people don't know unless they see him in shure that
Speaker 1: he's got a prosthetic. But still that doesn't make navigating
Speaker 1: you know that kind of terrain. Is he to give
Speaker 1: you some pushback? His wife had to have known. I mean,
Speaker 1: I presume that they have big, nice houses in this area, right,
Speaker 1: It's not like your house. I've been to your house.
Speaker 1: It's small thanks, But yes, I mean, and it's it's fine. Actually,
Speaker 1: but I've been on street view in these little towns
Speaker 1: and they're actually not enormous mansions. We're not twice the
Speaker 1: size of Steve's house, even of your house. Not an
Speaker 1: enormous mansion, but a big enough house that you could
Speaker 1: come in. There's two full bathrooms. Right. You come in,
Speaker 1: you shower, you clean off, you throw your wash in
Speaker 1: the laundry. You fall asleep on the couch with the
Speaker 1: football game on, and your wife comes down and says, oh,
Speaker 1: did you fall asleep in front of the TV again?
Speaker 1: And you say, yeah, I guess I must have the
Speaker 1: reason that I say his wife had to know at
Speaker 1: least with Shannon, as if indeed she came over, he
Speaker 1: and and this is this is what she came over
Speaker 1: probably well, no, this is this is for the people
Speaker 1: who say that he older and he must have dumped
Speaker 1: her behind his house in the marsh that then carried
Speaker 1: her away. Is that she had to have been in
Speaker 1: his house for some period of time, at which point,
Speaker 1: if she was as panicked as everybody says she was,
Speaker 1: she would have been screaming and his wife would could
Speaker 1: not have slept and ignored that. Okay, here's the next question.
Speaker 1: I have lots of questions on this, But how do
Speaker 1: you know the wife was home? Was? Okay? Okay, how
Speaker 1: do you know the wife wasn't on ambien or xan
Speaker 1: x or any of the other None of that was.
Speaker 1: That's never specified, so I can't say, right, So, I
Speaker 1: mean that's and that's a thing. Here's my problem. Have
Speaker 1: to go back. Well, no, and the thing with Hackett,
Speaker 1: the guy is subtle as a t rex. I mean,
Speaker 1: he didn't know me. He doesn't have to wear with all.
Speaker 1: I think your arguments against all, well, he's he's he's
Speaker 1: made he's made enemies. I mean, there's all kinds of
Speaker 1: have you ever gone have you ever seen those people
Speaker 1: who are in a moners association in there? They are
Speaker 1: on the board and there's all kinds of political crap
Speaker 1: going on back and forth. He was, he was involved
Speaker 1: in that for years in this community, and he's made
Speaker 1: a lot of enemies. And while I don't use that
Speaker 1: as a reason to excuse him, I use that as
Speaker 1: a reason to think that people just say that guy's
Speaker 1: inn a whole and it's his fault. Yeah. The thing
Speaker 1: about it is, too is that there's not there's not
Speaker 1: a shred of evidence that even that he murdered Shannon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there really is not a shred of evidence and much
Speaker 1: left and Shannon, in my in my opinion, is completely
Speaker 1: unconnected to the rest of the body. Honest, there's not
Speaker 1: even a shred of evidence that he even really meant
Speaker 1: her he met her. Yeah, there's not much. There's not
Speaker 1: that much evidence of that either. Yeah, I mean, actually
Speaker 1: it's so weak. I will say that there's a little
Speaker 1: bit of evidence because he himself isn't kind of if
Speaker 1: you would call this incriminating evidence that he's sort of
Speaker 1: incriminated himself a little bit by saying by making the
Speaker 1: phone call to it. That's the only the only bit
Speaker 1: of evidence is that, and and that could be evidence
Speaker 1: for like Brewers said, Brewers said that they had met
Speaker 1: and Hackett and hey, yeah, but you know, but even
Speaker 1: so what you know, I mean, yeah, so he sold
Speaker 1: them drugs. Yeah, Okay, let's let's move forward. Yeah, because
Speaker 1: we're gonna move on to the who you just talked about,
Speaker 1: which is Brewer, which people say Brewer is responsible. Also
Speaker 1: the dumbest thing I ever, because there is absolutely no
Speaker 1: evidence other than the fact that Shannon came to his house,
Speaker 1: didn't potentially did a bunch of drugs, possibly had sex
Speaker 1: with him, and then ran from his house in a
Speaker 1: possibly drug induced panic. Possibly not, but she left his
Speaker 1: house and that was But there's nothing to connect him
Speaker 1: to all the other murders. Even if he did somehow
Speaker 1: kill Shannon, he have he probably not a serial killer.
Speaker 1: That would have been like a super bungled case. Well, Ben,
Speaker 1: he would have had acts actually a very positive incentive
Speaker 1: to not let her run off into the night, because
Speaker 1: if he had actually stashed all these bodies would have
Speaker 1: all around near Yeah, he wouldn't have called past. He
Speaker 1: also wouldn't have just turned around and walked back into
Speaker 1: his own day house. Also, he also wouldn't have led
Speaker 1: her out of the house to begin with, because her
Speaker 1: running off sparked this whole thing, you know. And if
Speaker 1: he had had bodies stashed all around his house, I mean,
Speaker 1: not not near his house, but in the area, yeah,
Speaker 1: obviously would have just killed her. So yeah, so why
Speaker 1: not treat her like all the others? So how many,
Speaker 1: how many? How strong I can tend to his brewer
Speaker 1: out there on the internet. Oh, he's he's for the
Speaker 1: most part completely disregarded. Okay, you will see the occasional
Speaker 1: it's got to be Brewer because he's he's you know,
Speaker 1: this thing happened with Shannon, But for the most part,
Speaker 1: nobody even takes it as a serious theory. No, why
Speaker 1: would you. So let's let's move to my next theory.
Speaker 1: This is one that I we kind of talked about
Speaker 1: this a little bit or insinuated this a little bit
Speaker 1: when it comes to the multiple serial killers. But I'm
Speaker 1: not even gonna say this is multiple serial killers. This
Speaker 1: theory is a dumping grounds for a cleaner. If you
Speaker 1: have ever watched Reservoir Dogs, remember Harvey Kite tells now
Speaker 1: you're you're taking pulp fiction. Pulp fiction. You're right, I'm
Speaker 1: sorry it is. It's pulp fiction. Do you know what
Speaker 1: I think of always is um boondoc saints. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: you got the cleaner, the guy who comes in, You've
Speaker 1: got a bunch of bodies, and he gets rid of them. Okay, well,
Speaker 1: let's not even take it to that fun Hollywood level.
Speaker 1: But let's just say there's somebody who needs who you know,
Speaker 1: he's just kind of hey, um, so I don't know
Speaker 1: what to do. I killed this, this this hooker, Um,
Speaker 1: what do I do? And he's like, give me a
Speaker 1: thousand bucks and I'll take care of it. And he
Speaker 1: just starts sprinkling bodies all over the area. And it's like, okay, well,
Speaker 1: this one spot, I always put him in bur laugh
Speaker 1: this place. I hack them up so that connected murders
Speaker 1: become disconnected or disconnected murders appear to be connected. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know that I am reaching on this, but it's like,
Speaker 1: why can't it be that is to anything else? I
Speaker 1: like it, except for that it takes a certain kind
Speaker 1: of um psychopath, it messed up human being to hack
Speaker 1: bodies up and disperse those parts. It could be you know,
Speaker 1: it could be a combo of of a cleaner and
Speaker 1: a serial killer. Yeah again, I mean I think, yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: these people are murder strangled and they're wrapped in burlap.
Speaker 1: But I just keep thinking, like, that's such such an
Speaker 1: attention to details. It's a reverent way to deal with
Speaker 1: that end. I'm not even sure. I'm not sure there
Speaker 1: was any reverence there, seriously, more so than hacking up
Speaker 1: their bodies happing it in like five different places. Sure,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean at least there's some care taken
Speaker 1: to this body. Um. I mean I'm going to disagree
Speaker 1: a little bit. I think that you're assigning care to something,
Speaker 1: which is I don't want to get gooey matter in
Speaker 1: the back of why trunk as simple as that. That, Yeah,
Speaker 1: Or you know, they were out of blue tarps at
Speaker 1: the Ace Hardware, so I got burlap wrap instead. I
Speaker 1: mean there's also such a thing as like serial killers
Speaker 1: who like go into this like blind rage and kill
Speaker 1: and then basically like come to afterwards, right and then
Speaker 1: realize like, oh god, I just did something awful. I
Speaker 1: got a body I gotta get rid of now, and
Speaker 1: they just don't know what to do or how to
Speaker 1: deal with it, so they wrap it up so they
Speaker 1: don't have to look at it. Yeah, it's you see
Speaker 1: this in movies. Oh god, it happened again. Yeah, what
Speaker 1: do I do? I've got to dispose? Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.
Speaker 1: I mean it could be any of that. The last
Speaker 1: theory that we have here is I don't know how
Speaker 1: to describe this one except I see it listed in
Speaker 1: some places and I refer to it as the party dudes,
Speaker 1: which is, did either of you see that movie? Um,
Speaker 1: Very bad Things Okay, it's a jereedy. It's a movie
Speaker 1: with Jeremy Piven in it, and he's with a prostitute
Speaker 1: and she accidentally dies while they're copulating, and it starts
Speaker 1: this chain of things. But it's like, you know, oh,
Speaker 1: well I hired a prostitute and she happened to die.
Speaker 1: We've got to get rid of the body. Well, this
Speaker 1: weirdly ties into that because this theory says that, well,
Speaker 1: there's these guys and they use the island and they
Speaker 1: like to party, and they invite prostitutes over, and occasionally
Speaker 1: a prostitute dies and we gotta handle it. So we
Speaker 1: just you know, one of us is responsible for getting
Speaker 1: rid of them. And I mean I know you had
Speaker 1: you had something that I told you to hold off,
Speaker 1: which is sort of in this vein kind of. I mean,
Speaker 1: I guess I I would more assign it to like
Speaker 1: multiple serial killers, but that like there's a chryslist, right,
Speaker 1: or like a deep website of like, oh crap, I
Speaker 1: gotta tore into this because like we're to dump a
Speaker 1: body on Oak Island, right. I mean, I'm sure that
Speaker 1: that exists in this world where you could just google
Speaker 1: something of like oops, I killed someone. But I think
Speaker 1: the thing that feeds into this party bro thing is
Speaker 1: as a straight woman, I have had sex with men,
Speaker 1: and straight men uh seem to think that ladies are
Speaker 1: into strangling. Actually I don't, but but it's definitely and
Speaker 1: there's there's like I've sadly seen things about this on
Speaker 1: the internet, something to be said by like, you know,
Speaker 1: a loving, trusting partner, like slightly choking what, okay, whatever,
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But I mean, I think there are dudes,
Speaker 1: especially if you have a prostitute, right, and like, dudes
Speaker 1: think that ladies love that. And I don't know what
Speaker 1: it is. I think it's probably there are some guys
Speaker 1: out there who and in certain circles and in a
Speaker 1: prostitute situation, it is a power place. So yes, And
Speaker 1: so the fact that a lot of these women were
Speaker 1: prostitutes who were strangle does to me feed into this
Speaker 1: of like, oh crap, I got high on coke with
Speaker 1: this prostitute and was super drunk and we were having
Speaker 1: sex and I was choking her and suddenly she stopped
Speaker 1: moaning fake fake in in. Uh yeah, that was brackets
Speaker 1: bracket speed, Like dude, how did you not notice? Right?
Speaker 1: She stopped moaning and like, oh crap, she's dead, Like
Speaker 1: how do I get rid of this? Right? I mean,
Speaker 1: so it's I don't want to advocate for that. I
Speaker 1: much more like that it's nefarious serial killers that are
Speaker 1: like killing. But it wouldn't surprise me that much to
Speaker 1: find out that it was just some bro dudes who
Speaker 1: were into choking and accidentally killed a bunch of hookers.
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that would really account for
Speaker 1: all of them, though. I don't think it would either,
Speaker 1: particularly the dismembered ones. Right. The dismembered ones for me
Speaker 1: have to be serial killer status. That's just because I
Speaker 1: normally want to believe that anybody who would totally dismember
Speaker 1: a body like that and drop it in multiple locations
Speaker 1: have to be a serial killer with like a very
Speaker 1: messed up mind. And I know you're making that face
Speaker 1: because I don't, yeah, but whatever. In my mind, the
Speaker 1: only people who do that are really messed up people
Speaker 1: that I don't encounter everything. And see, I've watched too
Speaker 1: many I've watched too many movies and too many TV
Speaker 1: shows to not think to myself if I was in
Speaker 1: some accidental situation where I accidentally killed somebody. What is
Speaker 1: easier to get rid of a full hundred some odd
Speaker 1: pound body or a bunch of smaller pieces that I
Speaker 1: can spread about. And while I might do a job
Speaker 1: of hacking at a park with a knife or naxe
Speaker 1: or whatever, all of these things which I own, so
Speaker 1: don't come into my house. Um, you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: just that for most of us it would. I mean
Speaker 1: I I totally understand parting them out and taking them
Speaker 1: out in separate small loads makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 1: I just don't think I could do it. I just
Speaker 1: want you to think of the like emotional toll, like
Speaker 1: have you ever butchered a chicken? Actually not? I know
Speaker 1: you have chickens. Have you ever butchered a chicken? I
Speaker 1: have you? Do? You want to know how terribly cold
Speaker 1: I am when it comes to dead things. When so
Speaker 1: I went to school in a rural area and we
Speaker 1: had the mobile butcher come and he drove to the
Speaker 1: barn and he killed a pig, and he hoisted the
Speaker 1: pig and he was dressing and butchering it right there,
Speaker 1: all of it in the barn. And I was standing
Speaker 1: there watching the whole thing, eating a bag of crunchy
Speaker 1: Cheetos like it didn't phase me at all. It was meat.
Speaker 1: So that's been worried about Joe killing Steve, like like
Speaker 1: once something is gone. I don't. I's the weird thing.
Speaker 1: I don't. So I can see whereas not that I
Speaker 1: would ever do this, but I can see everything. Okay,
Speaker 1: well this it's it's business now. I just gotta I
Speaker 1: gotta do this thing. I don't think it would actually
Speaker 1: be that way for you probably think you're better. I
Speaker 1: would probably pee myself and be crying in the corner.
Speaker 1: I don't think you could actually do it, you know,
Speaker 1: after I touched it with a knife, not even cut,
Speaker 1: just oh I can't do it. Yeah, it's one thing
Speaker 1: to do it to an animal. That which is in
Speaker 1: my mind, kind of stopped that. Yeah, but I don't think.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's no way that this is
Speaker 1: just one person. I agree, and I guess I don't
Speaker 1: know if it's like a couple of different serial killers
Speaker 1: or whatever. I think one of them, in my mind,
Speaker 1: definitely has to be a serial killer. The others, I
Speaker 1: don't know. It's tragic no matter what. Well, you know
Speaker 1: what we haven't talked about. I mean you you hinted
Speaker 1: this a little bit. But but okay, let's just let's
Speaker 1: step away from the theories that we've already got, but
Speaker 1: let's just say it is a something that can to
Speaker 1: what you said, which is a group dumping ground. But
Speaker 1: let's say that it's a gang dumping ground. So it's
Speaker 1: you know, oh well, you know, t Bone, he he
Speaker 1: got this, he got this hooker and things a little
Speaker 1: too far and he took care of him. Then a
Speaker 1: year later like, oh well, we'll skippy over there. Oh well,
Speaker 1: I'll just put it with the last We'll just let's
Speaker 1: taken this place we dumped the last one. But that ganks.
Speaker 1: Gangs don't work that way. I understand that, Joe. But
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it could be not as organized as
Speaker 1: the whole party bro party. Now, I don't buy the
Speaker 1: party broke conspiracy. It seems to me. It seems to
Speaker 1: me it's two serial killers and a bunch of one
Speaker 1: off killings, because I mean, you well, it happens to
Speaker 1: me the most. It has to be the It happens
Speaker 1: to be the most logical dumping ground next to a
Speaker 1: metro area that's composed of like eight and a half
Speaker 1: million people. You know, and so yeah, of course a
Speaker 1: million people lived there, and there's a couple of serial killers. Yea,
Speaker 1: at least one. I mean, there's got to be some,
Speaker 1: you know, on the dark web. I'm sure that there's
Speaker 1: some like Google Best Places to you know, when somebody says, well,
Speaker 1: I'm in the New York area and I dismembered and
Speaker 1: dumped four different women in this area, and I have
Speaker 1: been caught yet some message board thing. Yeah, yeah, by
Speaker 1: anything on the dark web, you can find how to
Speaker 1: kill a prosty dot org. Yeah. Well so, but the police, now,
Speaker 1: my understanding is their latest thinking is that there's one
Speaker 1: serial killer involved in all this, which surprises me a
Speaker 1: little bit because so there I don't want to say
Speaker 1: negative things about the New York Police Department. There have
Speaker 1: been some very strange events and in circumstances around this case.
Speaker 1: And I also feel like a lot of media publicity
Speaker 1: has driven the statements and comments that they put out.
Speaker 1: Like Mary, Mary, she was Shannon's mom, she did she
Speaker 1: did a lot of stuff. The other family members of
Speaker 1: the first four victims, the Burlett victims, they were all
Speaker 1: banded together and then Mary kind of went off as
Speaker 1: reservation and they there was a lot of pressure put
Speaker 1: on the police. There were some police changes that happened
Speaker 1: because of it. So you know, I mean they may
Speaker 1: have just I mean, this is something. This is me
Speaker 1: totally guessing. They may have said, listen, we have to
Speaker 1: take a stand and we're going to take a stand
Speaker 1: here because the families are just constantly causing a ruckus
Speaker 1: and screaming, and we just have to say this, even
Speaker 1: if we don't believe it internally, we have to publicly
Speaker 1: say something. Yeah, you know, and then you never you
Speaker 1: never know, I mean, actually make it would make sense
Speaker 1: for me. Number one. The police withhold information for the
Speaker 1: public for good reasons, for very good reasons, and I
Speaker 1: think they sometimes put out disinformation. It may very well
Speaker 1: be because it seems pretty plainly obvious to me that
Speaker 1: this is not the work of us. You know, it's not.
Speaker 1: It's not just variant, no, no, very much variable. And
Speaker 1: like I said, that's such an attractive dumping ground. Of
Speaker 1: course you're gonna find bodies, said, they should keep looking
Speaker 1: a bit, they'll find more. Really, things keep washing up.
Speaker 1: It's a great spot to dump a body because it's
Speaker 1: right off of that coast, you know, and God knows
Speaker 1: how many remains were washed away in the storms in
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, you know, or or even
Speaker 1: more maybe things were exposed. It's hard to say. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, of course there's body is there. So yeah.
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's That's about as much as I've got
Speaker 1: to say about the whole thing. I'm done. Yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: Well that's the I guess that's the end of it.
Speaker 1: So let's get into all the bits and pieces of
Speaker 1: the show that everybody waits. How they do, this is
Speaker 1: what they this is why they download is to hear
Speaker 1: all this stuff. Actually, I think I think that people
Speaker 1: probably have clicked stopped by this point. That was not
Speaker 1: a punt I meant to have devon. Uh So, first off,
Speaker 1: you can find this episode, as well as all episodes
Speaker 1: and the links to the research for our episodes on
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Speaker 1: E O N. That is exactly right, Joe, thank you,
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Speaker 1: And that's it. Yeah, really that is I think all
Speaker 1: of the little, the loose ends that we've got left here, Okay,
Speaker 1: I think so. All right, well then if that's it,
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna we're gonna hack it up
Speaker 1: and we will talk to you next week.