WEBVTT - Thinking Sideways: Long Island Serial Killer 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.120 Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by a neckflix 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:06.520 cue made up entirely of rom comns. Instead, it is 0:00:06.559 --> 0:00:09.840 supported by the generous contributions of people like you, our 0:00:09.840 --> 0:00:14.440 listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:24.759 to learn more Thinking Sideways. I don't under you never 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:32.320 know stories of things. We simply don't know the answer too. 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:42.080 Hey guys, um, so sorry, UM, in a few seconds 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:44.920 you're gonna hear us start talking again. Um, but you're 0:00:44.960 --> 0:00:47.200 not going to be able to hear me super well 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:54.720 because somebody whose initials are Steve. Uh. But my volume 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:59.000 way down, so sorry about that. Technical difficulties. Obviously we've 0:00:59.040 --> 0:01:02.960 got that figured out, ships, So sorry. It sounds a 0:01:02.960 --> 0:01:05.559 little rough and weird. We did the best we could, 0:01:05.760 --> 0:01:09.840 but like I said, won't happen again. I promise, I'm 0:01:09.880 --> 0:01:15.680 sorry and everything. So here we go, Hey everybody, and 0:01:15.760 --> 0:01:19.040 welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am 0:01:19.120 --> 0:01:23.440 Steve as always, joined by Devin and Joe, and once 0:01:23.480 --> 0:01:27.200 again we have another mystery for you. This week we 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:30.720 are going to be talking about the Long Island serial 0:01:30.800 --> 0:01:34.520 Killer a k a. The gil Go Beach serial Killer 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:37.960 a k a. The crazlist serial killers. Are we talking 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:41.680 about a serial killer? We are talking about a serial killer, 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:47.200 and just a quick ward of warning to everybody, it's 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:50.920 a serial killer who focuses primarily on women, so we're 0:01:50.920 --> 0:01:54.000 gonna be talking about the killing of women and a child. 0:01:54.760 --> 0:01:58.560 The story involves drug use and prostitution, so if those 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:01.440 are triggers, please turn us all off now, or if 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:04.880 you've got little ears a k a. Children around, probably 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:06.600 not the time to have this one on. Save us 0:02:06.640 --> 0:02:08.960 for another time. In other words, it's the kind of 0:02:08.960 --> 0:02:12.800 episode that most of you weirdos love exactly. It kind 0:02:12.800 --> 0:02:16.800 of is um And speaking of weirdos, this story was 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.440 suggested by a couple of our listeners. Uh this was 0:02:19.840 --> 0:02:22.040 under the different names. It came through a couple of times. 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:25.160 I found it on the list, but Jeannette and Renee 0:02:25.200 --> 0:02:27.240 are the first ones that had it on the list. 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:29.800 So let's do a quick overview of the story, because 0:02:29.800 --> 0:02:31.799 this one is actually kind of a big Long onelve 0:02:31.880 --> 0:02:33.400 A lot of dead bodies. That's about all you need 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.800 to know our start. Our story revolves around the discovery 0:02:38.000 --> 0:02:42.720 of several sets of remains. About a dozen women were 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.079 found on the south side of Long Island, New York 0:02:45.200 --> 0:02:47.760 between two thousand ten and two thousand eleven, and the 0:02:47.800 --> 0:02:52.600 bodies were found primarily on the Southern Barrier Island, which 0:02:52.600 --> 0:02:56.280 is Oak Island, though a few remains were found on 0:02:56.440 --> 0:02:58.800 Fire Island, which is to the east, and then some 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:01.840 were also found further in in the town of I 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:05.519 believe it's Mannerville is the proper pronunciation there. The bodies 0:03:05.639 --> 0:03:09.000 that were found belonged to women who had been missing 0:03:10.120 --> 0:03:15.920 since between roughly six to two thousand and ten. There's 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:22.080 some weak connections between them, but aside from their occupations 0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:27.960 and some particular habits that involve substances that are illegal there, 0:03:28.040 --> 0:03:30.679 there isn't a whole lot to connect these women, well, 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.240 not not as a whole. That among the sets of remains, 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.560 there was a lot to connect some smaller subsets. Subsets, yes, 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:39.880 and and that's why we're gonna get into the story here, 0:03:39.920 --> 0:03:42.600 and this one I've kind of organized a little bit 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:44.600 different than I've done them in the past. I've actually 0:03:44.600 --> 0:03:46.800 broken this into what I'm going to refer to as chapters, 0:03:46.840 --> 0:03:49.160 because there are several chapters and we've got a lot 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:51.960 of players, so we should probably just jump right in. Yeah, 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.280 this tone in front of me. Is should be divided 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.200 into chapters? Well, if I listed it in bullet points, 0:03:57.240 --> 0:03:59.680 it would be ten pages more. That's why I do that. 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:01.760 Make it ten pages more. So you looked like you 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:06.119 have a bigger script. Okay, good to know. Alright. Chapter one, 0:04:06.280 --> 0:04:08.440 we're going to talk about what I refer to as 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:12.000 the catalyst disappearance. So a woman by the name of 0:04:12.000 --> 0:04:15.840 Shannon Gilbert, who was twenty four years old. Her family, 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.359 by the way, lived in or lives in Ellenville, New York. 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:23.080 But Shannon was an adult at the time. She's twenty four, 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.560 she didn't live in that town with her family. Instead, 0:04:25.960 --> 0:04:29.080 she I've seen several different places that she lived. She 0:04:29.320 --> 0:04:32.320 lived actually in New York City, or she lives somewhere 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.559 in New Jersey. But at the time she was living 0:04:35.560 --> 0:04:39.320 with her boyfriend whose name was Alex Did Alex. I 0:04:39.400 --> 0:04:44.440 believe Alex did pretty sure that he had an idea 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.480 based on some calls that he made later on about 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:50.240 what's going on here. But on the first of May 0:04:50.320 --> 0:04:53.400 two thousand and ten, Shannon went to meet a client. 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.120 That client's name was Joseph Brewer and he lived on 0:04:57.360 --> 0:05:00.320 Oak Island, and she had a driver take her there 0:05:00.360 --> 0:05:04.080 that night. His name was Michael Pack. So Shannon and 0:05:04.160 --> 0:05:08.360 Brewery they had talked ahead of time. They had agreed 0:05:08.480 --> 0:05:11.920 that she was going to go to his house for sex. Uh. 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.040 She had at this point been by my best guess 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:19.400 prostitute for about a year. Uh. Sorry, this might be 0:05:19.440 --> 0:05:24.279 a dumb question, Um, Pack. Was he like her personal 0:05:24.360 --> 0:05:26.960 driver all the time? Was he just like a random 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:31.560 taxi driver? Yeah? No, Michael Pack was a fairly regular 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.479 driver for her. It doesn't kind of like a security 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:37.880 escort of Yeah. The funny thing is is that, you 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:40.240 know what Pack wasn't really like I would consider a 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:42.800 security escort a guy who would hang out and be 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:45.720 nearby for most of the time. That wasn't the case 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:48.600 with Michael because what he did is he he dropped 0:05:48.640 --> 0:05:54.320 Shannon off at Brewer's house and then he left. I believe, Yeah, 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:58.680 And I believe that's because Brewer was going to pay 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:04.000 for many hours of her companionship. Thank you. Companionship is 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:09.440 the term I was looking. Yes, Um came to regrets 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.320 his association with her, didn't he He He did kind of here, 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:17.200 Um because when from from his accounts, from Brewer's accounts, 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:20.080 at first, you know, things were fine for the first 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:23.120 couple of hours. He said they never actually had sex, 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.360 but instead they were they were doing drugs together basically 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:33.000 the entire time. Um, now, there's some unconfirmed reporting on 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:35.040 something I'm gonna talk about here, and you're actually gonna 0:06:35.040 --> 0:06:38.479 find a lot of unconfirmed reporting in the story. But 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:43.160 it is reported that the pair Brewer and Shannon went 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:47.440 down the street to another house to which was the 0:06:47.480 --> 0:06:51.479 resident of that house was the doctor Peter Hackett, and 0:06:52.040 --> 0:06:54.440 the doctor had drugs, and they bought more drugs to 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.600 continue their drug fueled evening. Can't confirm that or not. 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.120 I think that well, the hard party, they're not talking. 0:07:01.160 --> 0:07:04.480 Their stories have changed, like, well, I don't know. I 0:07:05.000 --> 0:07:07.039 just find it hard to believe that Brewer would confess 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:09.600 to go and buying a illicit drugs from the doctor. 0:07:10.320 --> 0:07:13.160 I'm having a hard time time accepting that. Well, and 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:15.120 that's the thing, is said. Brewer has been really honest 0:07:15.160 --> 0:07:17.360 with he's been He's just done. It's the cops said 0:07:17.400 --> 0:07:19.040 I want you to do this. He did it like 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.640 he complied to all requests from the police, and he 0:07:22.680 --> 0:07:25.320 didn't hide the fact. I mean, I don't know that 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:28.880 the cops ever put any charges against him for having 0:07:28.920 --> 0:07:31.600 an escort coming to his house. He was very blatantly 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:34.960 hiring the service of a prostitute. Yeah, I guess it 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:37.920 seems like to me that if you know, somebody comes here, 0:07:37.960 --> 0:07:41.120 Doran says, Um, hey, we heard this woman was with 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.440 you last night. Hey, it turns out she's missing. And 0:07:43.480 --> 0:07:45.440 then you know, a couple of weeks later or whatever, 0:07:45.760 --> 0:07:51.160 they say, Oh, it turns out she's horrifically been murdered. Um. 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.480 Maybe you would say, okay, yeah, the drug part, yes, um, 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:57.600 But here's the rest of it. And I had nothing 0:07:57.640 --> 0:07:58.920 to do with that. Last time I saw her, she 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:01.200 was alive. Right. I will give you literally all of 0:08:01.200 --> 0:08:03.200 the information. I don't want you to think I'm hiding 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.440 anything from you. But on the other hand, that's also 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:09.600 something a really smart criminal would do. True, that's up. Yeah, 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.680 And and here's exactly what happens, is that you know 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.239 whether they did or did not go to the doctor's house. 0:08:16.480 --> 0:08:23.760 After several hours, Brewer calls pack because Shannon is upset 0:08:23.960 --> 0:08:27.960 and acting, as I've seen it from his description, crazy, 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.239 She's she's not happy, and she wants to leave. There's 0:08:31.280 --> 0:08:34.120 no history of like bipolar disorder. Or anything like that 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:36.720 with her. I don't remember anything. I mean, there's so 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.680 many players in here, I can't remember the specifics of that. Okay, 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:48.600 but like that, but I mean, let's let's let's not 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.679 look at you know, major underlying causes. She's high, if 0:08:51.720 --> 0:08:54.480 she is truly as he says, they are doing drugs 0:08:54.559 --> 0:08:59.320 for hours on end, she's very, very heavily under the 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:03.320 influence at his point. But but what happens is, you know, 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.800 he calls pack, Pack shows up. He starts that, he 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:10.400 gets out of the car, and apparently Shannon runs out 0:09:10.400 --> 0:09:14.840 of the house, stops, sees Pack, turns the other direction 0:09:14.960 --> 0:09:19.160 and runs away from him and starts beaten feet through 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:23.000 the through the neighborhoods now. And this was like early 0:09:23.040 --> 0:09:27.200 hours of the mornings, like fo yeah, yeah, it's like 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.200 four in the morning something like that. She's knocking on 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:33.760 doors and yeah, and and so what happens here is that, 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:35.800 you know, Brewer just turns around and goes back in 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.280 his house. He's done, He's finished with this whole deal. 0:09:38.760 --> 0:09:43.080 But Packaged there around looking for Shannon. In the meantime, 0:09:43.080 --> 0:09:47.720 Shannon is running around the neighborhood banging on doors. Some 0:09:47.920 --> 0:09:52.000 of the residents. Well, okay, so most of the residents 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.760 they just called nine one. They didn't actually open their doors. 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:57.600 There is one person who says they opened the door 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.000 and they let her in, but she didn't stick around 0:10:00.120 --> 0:10:03.200 long enough to get help before she split again. She 0:10:03.280 --> 0:10:08.719 just took off. But Shannon, she she does call one her. 0:10:09.040 --> 0:10:13.319 Her call to dispatch evidently came in at four am, 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:15.959 so this is five am, so she's been up all 0:10:16.040 --> 0:10:20.319 night and she starts making statements that are they're trying 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:25.120 to kill me and they're after me. Now, obviously the dispatcher, 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.640 trying to figure out what's going on, ask where are you? 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:31.920 At which point it becomes very apparent that Chinna didn't 0:10:31.920 --> 0:10:34.520 know exactly where she was, and I mean in the 0:10:34.679 --> 0:10:38.080 in the ground, and not in just the specifics of 0:10:38.120 --> 0:10:41.440 what intersection you're at, but where on the island are you? 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:46.000 Because she gave a completely different town or island name. 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.120 She didn't really know where she was. She didn't pay attention. 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:54.880 Apparently I have to guess she was so loaded that yeah. 0:10:54.920 --> 0:10:59.520 But what happens is, unfortunately she gives a location that 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:03.160 four versus the dispatcher to transfer her call to a 0:11:03.200 --> 0:11:07.880 different dispatcher, because of jurisdiction. In other words, she was 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.320 she said, she was basically in what amounts to another county, 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:14.000 so the another county set of police had to take 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:17.560 care of it. Yeah. Yeah, And there's been a lot 0:11:17.600 --> 0:11:21.320 of criticism of this, and I to a point, I 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.120 don't criticize the nine on one dispatcher because they can 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:27.360 only operate on the information that they're given. Group. Yeah 0:11:27.400 --> 0:11:29.319 you can. I mean, you can only do so much 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:32.080 much as you can do with the information. Yeah. Yeah, 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.320 you're reliant upon that. But Shannon was on the phone 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:38.400 with nine on one for a total of twenty three 0:11:38.440 --> 0:11:42.720 minutes before her call ended. Yeah, it's a very long call. Now, 0:11:42.760 --> 0:11:44.640 I know part of that. She was apparently on hold 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:47.760 for several minutes between you know, when she was getting transferred. 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:49.959 I know that accounts for a part of it. But 0:11:50.080 --> 0:11:53.080 eventually her call ends. Doesn't sound like she just said 0:11:53.120 --> 0:11:55.880 okay by It sounds like the call just dropped. I'm 0:11:55.920 --> 0:11:58.560 guessing that based on the descriptions I've read. I haven't 0:11:58.600 --> 0:12:01.800 actually heard the tape because the tape isn't publicly available 0:12:02.400 --> 0:12:08.400 go figure, so it's hard to say exactly how she sounded. 0:12:08.600 --> 0:12:13.080 I've read accounts that vary, so anywhere from she was 0:12:13.200 --> 0:12:17.800 panicked too incoherent or she was loaded versus being, you know, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:22.439 stone cold sober. I've heard different descriptions of her her 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:27.040 state on that call, so I don't know. Um. There's 0:12:27.080 --> 0:12:30.840 also talk that there were voices in the background. Now, 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.560 was that pack calling to her? Was that while she 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.160 was at this one neighbor's house before she beat feet 0:12:38.200 --> 0:12:40.880 and got up I got out of there. I don't know. 0:12:40.960 --> 0:12:44.520 And I've never heard that pin down anywhere people and 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:46.960 yelling at her to shut up. Yeah, I mean, you 0:12:47.000 --> 0:12:49.120 know what's going on, lady, cut it out? What's deal? 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:53.440 I mean, yeah, no idea. But what we do know 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:58.120 is that she she, like I said, she caused a 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.240 whole bunch of calls to nine one on. The police 0:13:01.360 --> 0:13:03.800 ended up coming to the area. That it took them 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:07.679 forty five minutes to respond. So people have criticized that, 0:13:07.840 --> 0:13:11.800 as people always criticize response times. That's I mean, it's silly. 0:13:12.200 --> 0:13:14.280 The police have a lot to do. Yeah, especially in 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:16.559 New York. They're going to kind of triage that is, 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:18.240 I don't know triage is the right word or not, 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.520 but they're gonna response to the things that are most 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.880 important to least, probably saying like, there's a crazy lady 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:29.840 walking down our street yelling doesn't take press shot exactly right. 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.840 Of course, by the time the cops get there, she's gone. 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:38.760 H The last people to see her worse those residents 0:13:38.800 --> 0:13:41.640 that we that we know of anyway, unless something else 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:45.120 is going on here. But she was last seen, according 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:49.160 to the residence, somewhere between Anchor Way, which was the 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:54.360 street that Brewer lived on, and Larboard Court, which is 0:13:54.400 --> 0:13:59.280 an intersecting street, Uh, several blocks down. That's that's the 0:13:59.320 --> 0:14:02.280 last we know whuns on that island. They're just basically 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:06.160 one street town. Well, it's a suburb, it's this This 0:14:06.280 --> 0:14:09.080 where she was at was kind of a gated community suburb. 0:14:09.679 --> 0:14:14.120 So it really was very small. So it wasn't as 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:16.920 if she could have gone just a massive distance in 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:20.360 any way. She Plus she was on a long, narrow island. Well, 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:24.880 anybody barrier, it's a very skinny little island. Shannon's story, officially, 0:14:25.120 --> 0:14:28.680 in the narrative of the Long Island Cereal Killer ends 0:14:28.720 --> 0:14:31.120 there for a while. But I'm just gonna go ahead 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.960 and jump ahead in time and finish up the story 0:14:34.000 --> 0:14:36.400 of Shannon. Yeah, just to stay with her for the 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:38.480 rest of this because there's there's some here and and 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:40.480 it will help for when we get to everything else 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:44.840 later on. The police had searched around Brewer's house, and 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:48.280 they had searched in the surrounding area, and they kept 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:52.160 looking around, but there their search went east and west, because, 0:14:52.160 --> 0:14:54.760 as we talked about, it's a it's a narrow spit 0:14:54.840 --> 0:14:57.240 of an island. It's not very big. It's a clarify. 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:01.920 Brewer himself never called nine one, nor did pack correct correct. 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:04.560 It was just Shannon and then neighbors. He didn't really 0:15:04.600 --> 0:15:06.640 know what's going on. Yes, okay, yeah, I just wanted 0:15:06.680 --> 0:15:09.440 to clarify. Yep, you're absolutely right, and I can see 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:11.720 why Brewer wouldn't do it as far as he was concerned. 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:15.840 He handed off to the driver and it's problem. Yeah. Um, 0:15:16.080 --> 0:15:18.960 so what the police do is they start spreading east 0:15:19.000 --> 0:15:21.880 and west. Well, what you need to know is just 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:25.000 to the east of Anchor Way and Larboard Court there's 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:28.880 a giant marsh. It's really big, and it it extends 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.120 all the way to Ocean Parkway, which is the east 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:35.520 west thoroughfare across the island, and then goes all the 0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:38.200 way to the Robert Moses Causeway, which is the main 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:42.600 north south route which takes you through Fire Island and 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:47.640 then eventually onto actually Long Island. When they were when 0:15:47.640 --> 0:15:51.280 they started searching, you said kind of near Brewer's house? 0:15:51.600 --> 0:15:54.280 Was it? Were they searching near Brewer's house because they 0:15:54.320 --> 0:15:56.600 knew he was involved at that point, or were they 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:58.760 searching in that neighborhood because that's where she had last 0:15:58.760 --> 0:16:02.120 been seen. That was their last known place because when 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:04.920 she took off, Pat didn't know where she started looking 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.200 the police had found out that she was at Hewers 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.440 and the pack was involved, correct, Okay, yeah, I just 0:16:10.480 --> 0:16:13.720 wanted to clarify that as well. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely interesting 0:16:13.800 --> 0:16:16.360 timeline stuff. Yeah, no, And the timeline on this is 0:16:16.360 --> 0:16:19.200 is a little difficult. It's because again, as we get 0:16:19.200 --> 0:16:21.960 farther and there's gonna be so much going on. But 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:24.960 the vegetation in the March that I was talking about, 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.800 it is by all accounts, obscenely dense and very difficult 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.880 to get through and navigate. And at this time of year, 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:35.800 this is in the beginning or in the midst of 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:41.360 the growing season, so the police couldn't actually search that 0:16:41.400 --> 0:16:42.800 and they were like, listen, we can't go in there 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:46.800 until it's the winter months. Now, she disappears in the 0:16:46.800 --> 0:16:50.760 middle of We're now going to jump forward to December 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.760 of eleven, which is a year and a half later 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:56.720 they actually start. Yeah, I know, Devin just gave me 0:16:56.760 --> 0:16:59.560 a funny look. Yeah, there's a huge disparity because they 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:05.160 serve they can't do anything. Shannon's mom was a huge, 0:17:05.840 --> 0:17:10.240 huge factor in the search continuing for her, and there's 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.440 some other things that come up that then prompted the 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:15.560 police to keep searching. I'm willing to say I don't 0:17:15.560 --> 0:17:18.320 blame the dispatcher. I don't blame anyone one for not 0:17:18.359 --> 0:17:21.359 showing up. But a year and a half, guys, well, 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:23.440 you know, it's uh yeah, I don't know. It takes 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:25.320 a long time to find bodies, it seems like. But 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:28.639 I mean, you know, so she disappeared in May and 0:17:28.800 --> 0:17:31.160 they said, Okay, we've got to wait until things peer out. 0:17:31.160 --> 0:17:34.320 It's like, all right, so you wait those but they 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:36.840 had actually been searching and they found some other stuff. 0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:39.240 But no, they didn't think that. They didn't think that 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.919 necessarily she had disappeared and died. She is a She 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:47.080 is not officially a missing person. She is an adult 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:51.040 of her own means she could very well have flagged 0:17:51.040 --> 0:17:54.000 a ride and driven away with somebody and said, you 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.959 know what, I'm I'm tired of living this life and 0:17:57.000 --> 0:17:59.840 I'm just moving on. Okay, they don't know that. Times 0:17:59.840 --> 0:18:04.800 I've forget that we're talking about adults here. Okay. So 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:09.360 December two eleven, right, Um, So they go and they 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.120 start searching through that marsh. A year and a half 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:14.879 later and they started they starting there. They find her 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:17.120 purse with her idea that they find her phone, They 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.880 find her shoes and her jeans, and they keep going 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:24.200 in and eventually they find her very badly decomposed remains 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:28.040 year and a half of the march exactly. It sounds gross. Yeah, Well, 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:31.040 and there's there's a lot of conjecture over her her 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:35.080 cause of death. The initial ruling is, uh, something that 0:18:35.119 --> 0:18:37.240 I haven't seen in a long time, which is death 0:18:37.280 --> 0:18:40.639 by misadventure and drowning death. My misadventure is just a 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:42.440 strange way to call it. That's what I want my 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:46.280 cause of death, my misadventure. I want. I want them 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:49.760 to be death by a really awesome adventure. Well that's misadventure. Yeah, 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:52.840 neither one works for me. I swear I'm up to 0:18:52.880 --> 0:18:56.720 no good. So there because of the state of her body, 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.879 there wasn't a whole lot to do testing on far 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.919 it was there, her phone, shoes, and her jeans. I 0:19:02.960 --> 0:19:05.480 don't have a I don't have a distance. I mean, 0:19:05.520 --> 0:19:07.359 I know that it was. It wasn't more than a 0:19:07.400 --> 0:19:10.440 mile in from where she her stuff was found, that 0:19:10.520 --> 0:19:13.040 her body was found, but I've I've never plotted the 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:17.000 exact distance. It's not too far in. But it's a marsh. 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:21.440 That's the hard part. Yea. They were able to find 0:19:21.480 --> 0:19:23.600 part of it because of the time of year, and 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.639 it's affected by tides, so the waters coming up and down. 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:28.720 So had they come in there, you know, six or 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:30.840 eight hours later, they might not have found her remains. 0:19:30.960 --> 0:19:33.439 But they did some testing. They did testing because they 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:36.440 were trying to figure out what's going on. And initially 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:40.200 the initial emmy, the medical examer who worked on all 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:43.359 of this, said that she didn't die of a drug reaction, 0:19:43.960 --> 0:19:47.280 and odd bit supposedly she didn't have any drugs in 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:50.480 her system, which is completely opposite of the whole thing 0:19:50.480 --> 0:19:54.320 that Brewer was saying. Wells left, well, that's what I 0:19:54.359 --> 0:19:57.080 don't know how much soft tissue there was, and that 0:19:57.160 --> 0:19:59.000 might be why he says that is that, you know, 0:19:59.040 --> 0:20:01.800 it takes a long time for that stuff to to 0:20:01.880 --> 0:20:04.639 be in such doses that you could find it in 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:07.280 the harder cartilages and bones that are left over from 0:20:07.280 --> 0:20:10.800 a body. So presuming that there was a very minimal 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.600 amount of soft tissue left, which is why the test 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.600 didn't reflect any of it, I would think she would 0:20:15.640 --> 0:20:18.399 have been just a skeleton pretty personally. I think everything 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:21.760 everything out there would have been nibbling on hers. Yeah, 0:20:23.080 --> 0:20:26.480 but anything that's worth testing is probably gone by then. Yeah, 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:29.000 And I believe that's probably what what why it came 0:20:29.000 --> 0:20:31.680 out the way it was. But a second review of 0:20:31.720 --> 0:20:34.280 the body was done, uh, and that was, by the way, 0:20:34.280 --> 0:20:37.520 prompted by her mother Mary, who had that done about 0:20:37.560 --> 0:20:39.960 a year or so later I think it was or 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:45.880 several years actually. But the secondary review concluded that Shannon 0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:50.040 had died of strangulation, and that was based on damage 0:20:50.080 --> 0:20:52.840 that was done to one of the small bones in 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.560 her neck. The problem is is that that's not a 0:20:56.760 --> 0:21:00.439 positive proof because at least one or two of the 0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.280 other bones that were directly next to that one, we're missing, 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.120 like some small critter probably carried it away, or it's 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:11.600 sinking to the mocker or who knows. So it's not 0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.159 iron clad that she was strangled. Well, you know, it 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:16.800 seems unlikely because out there in the middle of nowhere 0:21:16.840 --> 0:21:19.199 and this in this possible suburb kind of thing, you know, 0:21:19.240 --> 0:21:22.080 I mean, somebody's just gonna jump out of the bushes 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:25.080 and choke her to death. I mean, maybe somebody wanted 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:27.680 to just shut the hell up. Well no, no, The thing, 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:30.160 you know, Joe, what what this is getting at, is that, 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.560 based on what we're gonna talk about in about two 0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:37.639 paragraphs continuing on, is this was an attempt to link 0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:41.560 her death to the other bodies that are found, and 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.480 a number of those bodies, if not all, are believed 0:21:44.520 --> 0:21:47.720 to have been strangled. So it's in a it's it's 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:50.720 a buyer I considered a bias. It's you know, oh well, 0:21:50.840 --> 0:21:53.399 all these other ones were strangled, So look for signs 0:21:53.440 --> 0:21:57.800 of strangulation. Anything this could indicate. It becomes this is 0:21:57.840 --> 0:22:01.439 definitely an indicator of strangulation. Yeah, don't that's how that happened. 0:22:01.480 --> 0:22:03.600 I don't buy it. I think given her condition when 0:22:03.680 --> 0:22:07.479 last scene, she probably drowned herself. Yeah, I mean, it's 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.399 it's hard to say death by misadventures is the most 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.200 that I'm willing to commit to. Um I called Shannon 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:18.159 the catalyst because the events surrounding her disappearance are what 0:22:18.440 --> 0:22:22.880 causes a much more thorough search of the entire area, 0:22:23.560 --> 0:22:27.040 and that is what brings to everyone's attention all of 0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:31.959 the other bodies. Ums were really thrilled to find out. Yeah, 0:22:32.720 --> 0:22:35.320 them for a dumping ground. Yeah. And and by the way, 0:22:35.359 --> 0:22:38.400 Shannon still to this day is not so I've I've 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:40.760 said it was the Long Island serial killer, Gilgo Beach, 0:22:40.800 --> 0:22:43.320 whichever you want to call it. She is not officially 0:22:43.400 --> 0:22:48.520 considered one of the victims, right because he did killing elsewhere, 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:50.600 you know, and dumped the bodies there. Well, and that's 0:22:50.640 --> 0:22:53.160 the thing is that again, Mary was I believe, trying 0:22:53.160 --> 0:22:56.159 to push for the idea of she was killed and 0:22:56.200 --> 0:22:59.320