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Speaker 1: Thinking Sideways is not brought to you by a neckflix

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Speaker 1: cue made up entirely of rom comns. Instead, it is

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Speaker 1: supported by the generous contributions of people like you, our

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Speaker 1: listeners on Patreon. Visit patreon dot com slash thinking sideways

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Speaker 1: to learn more Thinking Sideways. I don't under you never

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Speaker 1: know stories of things. We simply don't know the answer too.

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Speaker 1: Hey guys, um, so sorry, UM, in a few seconds

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Speaker 1: you're gonna hear us start talking again. Um, but you're

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Speaker 1: not going to be able to hear me super well

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Speaker 1: because somebody whose initials are Steve. Uh. But my volume

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Speaker 1: way down, so sorry about that. Technical difficulties. Obviously we've

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Speaker 1: got that figured out, ships, So sorry. It sounds a

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Speaker 1: little rough and weird. We did the best we could,

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Speaker 1: but like I said, won't happen again. I promise, I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry and everything. So here we go, Hey everybody, and

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Speaker 1: welcome again to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I am

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Speaker 1: Steve as always, joined by Devin and Joe, and once

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Speaker 1: again we have another mystery for you. This week we

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Speaker 1: are going to be talking about the Long Island serial

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Speaker 1: Killer a k a. The gil Go Beach serial Killer

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Speaker 1: a k a. The crazlist serial killers. Are we talking

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Speaker 1: about a serial killer? We are talking about a serial killer,

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Speaker 1: and just a quick ward of warning to everybody, it's

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Speaker 1: a serial killer who focuses primarily on women, so we're

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Speaker 1: gonna be talking about the killing of women and a child.

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Speaker 1: The story involves drug use and prostitution, so if those

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Speaker 1: are triggers, please turn us all off now, or if

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Speaker 1: you've got little ears a k a. Children around, probably

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Speaker 1: not the time to have this one on. Save us

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Speaker 1: for another time. In other words, it's the kind of

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Speaker 1: episode that most of you weirdos love exactly. It kind

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Speaker 1: of is um And speaking of weirdos, this story was

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Speaker 1: suggested by a couple of our listeners. Uh this was

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Speaker 1: under the different names. It came through a couple of times.

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Speaker 1: I found it on the list, but Jeannette and Renee

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Speaker 1: are the first ones that had it on the list.

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Speaker 1: So let's do a quick overview of the story, because

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Speaker 1: this one is actually kind of a big Long onelve

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Speaker 1: A lot of dead bodies. That's about all you need

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Speaker 1: to know our start. Our story revolves around the discovery

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Speaker 1: of several sets of remains. About a dozen women were

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Speaker 1: found on the south side of Long Island, New York

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Speaker 1: between two thousand ten and two thousand eleven, and the

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Speaker 1: bodies were found primarily on the Southern Barrier Island, which

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Speaker 1: is Oak Island, though a few remains were found on

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Speaker 1: Fire Island, which is to the east, and then some

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Speaker 1: were also found further in in the town of I

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Speaker 1: believe it's Mannerville is the proper pronunciation there. The bodies

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Speaker 1: that were found belonged to women who had been missing

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Speaker 1: since between roughly six to two thousand and ten. There's

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Speaker 1: some weak connections between them, but aside from their occupations

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Speaker 1: and some particular habits that involve substances that are illegal there,

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Speaker 1: there isn't a whole lot to connect these women, well,

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Speaker 1: not not as a whole. That among the sets of remains,

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Speaker 1: there was a lot to connect some smaller subsets. Subsets, yes,

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Speaker 1: and and that's why we're gonna get into the story here,

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Speaker 1: and this one I've kind of organized a little bit

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Speaker 1: different than I've done them in the past. I've actually

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Speaker 1: broken this into what I'm going to refer to as chapters,

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Speaker 1: because there are several chapters and we've got a lot

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Speaker 1: of players, so we should probably just jump right in. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this tone in front of me. Is should be divided

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Speaker 1: into chapters? Well, if I listed it in bullet points,

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Speaker 1: it would be ten pages more. That's why I do that.

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Speaker 1: Make it ten pages more. So you looked like you

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Speaker 1: have a bigger script. Okay, good to know. Alright. Chapter one,

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Speaker 1: we're going to talk about what I refer to as

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Speaker 1: the catalyst disappearance. So a woman by the name of

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Speaker 1: Shannon Gilbert, who was twenty four years old. Her family,

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Speaker 1: by the way, lived in or lives in Ellenville, New York.

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Speaker 1: But Shannon was an adult at the time. She's twenty four,

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Speaker 1: she didn't live in that town with her family. Instead,

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Speaker 1: she I've seen several different places that she lived. She

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Speaker 1: lived actually in New York City, or she lives somewhere

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Speaker 1: in New Jersey. But at the time she was living

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Speaker 1: with her boyfriend whose name was Alex Did Alex. I

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Speaker 1: believe Alex did pretty sure that he had an idea

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Speaker 1: based on some calls that he made later on about

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Speaker 1: what's going on here. But on the first of May

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Speaker 1: two thousand and ten, Shannon went to meet a client.

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Speaker 1: That client's name was Joseph Brewer and he lived on

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Speaker 1: Oak Island, and she had a driver take her there

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Speaker 1: that night. His name was Michael Pack. So Shannon and

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Speaker 1: Brewery they had talked ahead of time. They had agreed

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Speaker 1: that she was going to go to his house for sex. Uh.

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Speaker 1: She had at this point been by my best guess

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Speaker 1: prostitute for about a year. Uh. Sorry, this might be

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Speaker 1: a dumb question, Um, Pack. Was he like her personal

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Speaker 1: driver all the time? Was he just like a random

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Speaker 1: taxi driver? Yeah? No, Michael Pack was a fairly regular

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Speaker 1: driver for her. It doesn't kind of like a security

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Speaker 1: escort of Yeah. The funny thing is is that, you

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Speaker 1: know what Pack wasn't really like I would consider a

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Speaker 1: security escort a guy who would hang out and be

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Speaker 1: nearby for most of the time. That wasn't the case

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Speaker 1: with Michael because what he did is he he dropped

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Speaker 1: Shannon off at Brewer's house and then he left. I believe, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I believe that's because Brewer was going to pay

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Speaker 1: for many hours of her companionship. Thank you. Companionship is

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Speaker 1: the term I was looking. Yes, Um came to regrets

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Speaker 1: his association with her, didn't he He He did kind of here,

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Speaker 1: Um because when from from his accounts, from Brewer's accounts,

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Speaker 1: at first, you know, things were fine for the first

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Speaker 1: couple of hours. He said they never actually had sex,

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Speaker 1: but instead they were they were doing drugs together basically

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Speaker 1: the entire time. Um, now, there's some unconfirmed reporting on

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Speaker 1: something I'm gonna talk about here, and you're actually gonna

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Speaker 1: find a lot of unconfirmed reporting in the story. But

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Speaker 1: it is reported that the pair Brewer and Shannon went

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Speaker 1: down the street to another house to which was the

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Speaker 1: resident of that house was the doctor Peter Hackett, and

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Speaker 1: the doctor had drugs, and they bought more drugs to

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Speaker 1: continue their drug fueled evening. Can't confirm that or not.

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Speaker 1: I think that well, the hard party, they're not talking.

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Speaker 1: Their stories have changed, like, well, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: just find it hard to believe that Brewer would confess

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Speaker 1: to go and buying a illicit drugs from the doctor.

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Speaker 1: I'm having a hard time time accepting that. Well, and

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Speaker 1: that's the thing, is said. Brewer has been really honest

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Speaker 1: with he's been He's just done. It's the cops said

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Speaker 1: I want you to do this. He did it like

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Speaker 1: he complied to all requests from the police, and he

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Speaker 1: didn't hide the fact. I mean, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: the cops ever put any charges against him for having

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Speaker 1: an escort coming to his house. He was very blatantly

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Speaker 1: hiring the service of a prostitute. Yeah, I guess it

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Speaker 1: seems like to me that if you know, somebody comes here,

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Speaker 1: Doran says, Um, hey, we heard this woman was with

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Speaker 1: you last night. Hey, it turns out she's missing. And

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Speaker 1: then you know, a couple of weeks later or whatever,

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Speaker 1: they say, Oh, it turns out she's horrifically been murdered. Um.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you would say, okay, yeah, the drug part, yes, um,

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Speaker 1: But here's the rest of it. And I had nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with that. Last time I saw her, she

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Speaker 1: was alive. Right. I will give you literally all of

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Speaker 1: the information. I don't want you to think I'm hiding

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Speaker 1: anything from you. But on the other hand, that's also

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Speaker 1: something a really smart criminal would do. True, that's up. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And and here's exactly what happens, is that you know

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Speaker 1: whether they did or did not go to the doctor's house.

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Speaker 1: After several hours, Brewer calls pack because Shannon is upset

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Speaker 1: and acting, as I've seen it from his description, crazy,

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Speaker 1: She's she's not happy, and she wants to leave. There's

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Speaker 1: no history of like bipolar disorder. Or anything like that

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Speaker 1: with her. I don't remember anything. I mean, there's so

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Speaker 1: many players in here, I can't remember the specifics of that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: but like that, but I mean, let's let's let's not

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Speaker 1: look at you know, major underlying causes. She's high, if

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Speaker 1: she is truly as he says, they are doing drugs

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Speaker 1: for hours on end, she's very, very heavily under the

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Speaker 1: influence at his point. But but what happens is, you know,

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Speaker 1: he calls pack, Pack shows up. He starts that, he

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Speaker 1: gets out of the car, and apparently Shannon runs out

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Speaker 1: of the house, stops, sees Pack, turns the other direction

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Speaker 1: and runs away from him and starts beaten feet through

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Speaker 1: the through the neighborhoods now. And this was like early

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Speaker 1: hours of the mornings, like fo yeah, yeah, it's like

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Speaker 1: four in the morning something like that. She's knocking on

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Speaker 1: doors and yeah, and and so what happens here is that,

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Speaker 1: you know, Brewer just turns around and goes back in

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Speaker 1: his house. He's done, He's finished with this whole deal.

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Speaker 1: But Packaged there around looking for Shannon. In the meantime,

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Speaker 1: Shannon is running around the neighborhood banging on doors. Some

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Speaker 1: of the residents. Well, okay, so most of the residents

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Speaker 1: they just called nine one. They didn't actually open their doors.

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Speaker 1: There is one person who says they opened the door

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Speaker 1: and they let her in, but she didn't stick around

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Speaker 1: long enough to get help before she split again. She

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Speaker 1: just took off. But Shannon, she she does call one her.

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Speaker 1: Her call to dispatch evidently came in at four am,

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Speaker 1: so this is five am, so she's been up all

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Speaker 1: night and she starts making statements that are they're trying

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Speaker 1: to kill me and they're after me. Now, obviously the dispatcher,

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out what's going on, ask where are you?

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Speaker 1: At which point it becomes very apparent that Chinna didn't

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Speaker 1: know exactly where she was, and I mean in the

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Speaker 1: in the ground, and not in just the specifics of

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Speaker 1: what intersection you're at, but where on the island are you?

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Speaker 1: Because she gave a completely different town or island name.

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Speaker 1: She didn't really know where she was. She didn't pay attention.

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Speaker 1: Apparently I have to guess she was so loaded that yeah.

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Speaker 1: But what happens is, unfortunately she gives a location that

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Speaker 1: four versus the dispatcher to transfer her call to a

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Speaker 1: different dispatcher, because of jurisdiction. In other words, she was

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Speaker 1: she said, she was basically in what amounts to another county,

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Speaker 1: so the another county set of police had to take

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Speaker 1: care of it. Yeah. Yeah, And there's been a lot

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Speaker 1: of criticism of this, and I to a point, I

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Speaker 1: don't criticize the nine on one dispatcher because they can

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Speaker 1: only operate on the information that they're given. Group. Yeah

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Speaker 1: you can. I mean, you can only do so much

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Speaker 1: much as you can do with the information. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're reliant upon that. But Shannon was on the phone

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Speaker 1: with nine on one for a total of twenty three

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Speaker 1: minutes before her call ended. Yeah, it's a very long call. Now,

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Speaker 1: I know part of that. She was apparently on hold

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Speaker 1: for several minutes between you know, when she was getting transferred.

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Speaker 1: I know that accounts for a part of it. But

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Speaker 1: eventually her call ends. Doesn't sound like she just said

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Speaker 1: okay by It sounds like the call just dropped. I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing that based on the descriptions I've read. I haven't

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Speaker 1: actually heard the tape because the tape isn't publicly available

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Speaker 1: go figure, so it's hard to say exactly how she sounded.

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Speaker 1: I've read accounts that vary, so anywhere from she was

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Speaker 1: panicked too incoherent or she was loaded versus being, you know,

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Speaker 1: stone cold sober. I've heard different descriptions of her her

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Speaker 1: state on that call, so I don't know. Um. There's

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Speaker 1: also talk that there were voices in the background. Now,

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Speaker 1: was that pack calling to her? Was that while she

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Speaker 1: was at this one neighbor's house before she beat feet

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Speaker 1: and got up I got out of there. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: And I've never heard that pin down anywhere people and

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Speaker 1: yelling at her to shut up. Yeah, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: know what's going on, lady, cut it out? What's deal?

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Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, no idea. But what we do know

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Speaker 1: is that she she, like I said, she caused a

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of calls to nine one on. The police

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Speaker 1: ended up coming to the area. That it took them

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Speaker 1: forty five minutes to respond. So people have criticized that,

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Speaker 1: as people always criticize response times. That's I mean, it's silly.

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Speaker 1: The police have a lot to do. Yeah, especially in

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Speaker 1: New York. They're going to kind of triage that is,

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Speaker 1: I don't know triage is the right word or not,

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Speaker 1: but they're gonna response to the things that are most

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Speaker 1: important to least, probably saying like, there's a crazy lady

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Speaker 1: walking down our street yelling doesn't take press shot exactly right.

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Speaker 1: Of course, by the time the cops get there, she's gone.

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Speaker 1: H The last people to see her worse those residents

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Speaker 1: that we that we know of anyway, unless something else

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Speaker 1: is going on here. But she was last seen, according

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Speaker 1: to the residence, somewhere between Anchor Way, which was the

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Speaker 1: street that Brewer lived on, and Larboard Court, which is

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Speaker 1: an intersecting street, Uh, several blocks down. That's that's the

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Speaker 1: last we know whuns on that island. They're just basically

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Speaker 1: one street town. Well, it's a suburb, it's this This

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Speaker 1: where she was at was kind of a gated community suburb.

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Speaker 1: So it really was very small. So it wasn't as

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Speaker 1: if she could have gone just a massive distance in

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Speaker 1: any way. She Plus she was on a long, narrow island. Well,

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Speaker 1: anybody barrier, it's a very skinny little island. Shannon's story, officially,

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Speaker 1: in the narrative of the Long Island Cereal Killer ends

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Speaker 1: there for a while. But I'm just gonna go ahead

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Speaker 1: and jump ahead in time and finish up the story

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Speaker 1: of Shannon. Yeah, just to stay with her for the

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Speaker 1: rest of this because there's there's some here and and

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Speaker 1: it will help for when we get to everything else

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Speaker 1: later on. The police had searched around Brewer's house, and

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Speaker 1: they had searched in the surrounding area, and they kept

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Speaker 1: looking around, but there their search went east and west, because,

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Speaker 1: as we talked about, it's a it's a narrow spit

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Speaker 1: of an island. It's not very big. It's a clarify.

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Speaker 1: Brewer himself never called nine one, nor did pack correct correct.

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Speaker 1: It was just Shannon and then neighbors. He didn't really

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Speaker 1: know what's going on. Yes, okay, yeah, I just wanted

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Speaker 1: to clarify. Yep, you're absolutely right, and I can see

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Speaker 1: why Brewer wouldn't do it as far as he was concerned.

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Speaker 1: He handed off to the driver and it's problem. Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: so what the police do is they start spreading east

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Speaker 1: and west. Well, what you need to know is just

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Speaker 1: to the east of Anchor Way and Larboard Court there's

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Speaker 1: a giant marsh. It's really big, and it it extends

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Speaker 1: all the way to Ocean Parkway, which is the east

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Speaker 1: west thoroughfare across the island, and then goes all the

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Speaker 1: way to the Robert Moses Causeway, which is the main

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Speaker 1: north south route which takes you through Fire Island and

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Speaker 1: then eventually onto actually Long Island. When they were when

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Speaker 1: they started searching, you said kind of near Brewer's house?

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Speaker 1: Was it? Were they searching near Brewer's house because they

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Speaker 1: knew he was involved at that point, or were they

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Speaker 1: searching in that neighborhood because that's where she had last

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Speaker 1: been seen. That was their last known place because when

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Speaker 1: she took off, Pat didn't know where she started looking

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Speaker 1: the police had found out that she was at Hewers

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Speaker 1: and the pack was involved, correct, Okay, yeah, I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to clarify that as well. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely interesting

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Speaker 1: timeline stuff. Yeah, no, And the timeline on this is

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Speaker 1: is a little difficult. It's because again, as we get

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Speaker 1: farther and there's gonna be so much going on. But

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Speaker 1: the vegetation in the March that I was talking about,

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Speaker 1: it is by all accounts, obscenely dense and very difficult

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Speaker 1: to get through and navigate. And at this time of year,

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Speaker 1: this is in the beginning or in the midst of

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Speaker 1: the growing season, so the police couldn't actually search that

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Speaker 1: and they were like, listen, we can't go in there

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Speaker 1: until it's the winter months. Now, she disappears in the

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Speaker 1: middle of We're now going to jump forward to December

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Speaker 1: of eleven, which is a year and a half later

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Speaker 1: they actually start. Yeah, I know, Devin just gave me

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Speaker 1: a funny look. Yeah, there's a huge disparity because they

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Speaker 1: serve they can't do anything. Shannon's mom was a huge,

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Speaker 1: huge factor in the search continuing for her, and there's

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Speaker 1: some other things that come up that then prompted the

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Speaker 1: police to keep searching. I'm willing to say I don't

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Speaker 1: blame the dispatcher. I don't blame anyone one for not

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Speaker 1: showing up. But a year and a half, guys, well,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's uh yeah, I don't know. It takes

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Speaker 1: a long time to find bodies, it seems like. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, so she disappeared in May and

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Speaker 1: they said, Okay, we've got to wait until things peer out.

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Speaker 1: It's like, all right, so you wait those but they

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Speaker 1: had actually been searching and they found some other stuff.

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Speaker 1: But no, they didn't think that. They didn't think that

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Speaker 1: necessarily she had disappeared and died. She is a She

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Speaker 1: is not officially a missing person. She is an adult

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Speaker 1: of her own means she could very well have flagged

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Speaker 1: a ride and driven away with somebody and said, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I'm I'm tired of living this life and

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Speaker 1: I'm just moving on. Okay, they don't know that. Times

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Speaker 1: I've forget that we're talking about adults here. Okay. So

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Speaker 1: December two eleven, right, Um, So they go and they

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Speaker 1: start searching through that marsh. A year and a half

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Speaker 1: later and they started they starting there. They find her

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Speaker 1: purse with her idea that they find her phone, They

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Speaker 1: find her shoes and her jeans, and they keep going

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Speaker 1: in and eventually they find her very badly decomposed remains

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Speaker 1: year and a half of the march exactly. It sounds gross. Yeah, Well,

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Speaker 1: and there's there's a lot of conjecture over her her

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Speaker 1: cause of death. The initial ruling is, uh, something that

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen in a long time, which is death

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Speaker 1: by misadventure and drowning death. My misadventure is just a

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Speaker 1: strange way to call it. That's what I want my

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Speaker 1: cause of death, my misadventure. I want. I want them

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Speaker 1: to be death by a really awesome adventure. Well that's misadventure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: neither one works for me. I swear I'm up to

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Speaker 1: no good. So there because of the state of her body,

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Speaker 1: there wasn't a whole lot to do testing on far

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Speaker 1: it was there, her phone, shoes, and her jeans. I

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Speaker 1: don't have a I don't have a distance. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I know that it was. It wasn't more than a

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Speaker 1: mile in from where she her stuff was found, that

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Speaker 1: her body was found, but I've I've never plotted the

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Speaker 1: exact distance. It's not too far in. But it's a marsh.

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Speaker 1: That's the hard part. Yea. They were able to find

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Speaker 1: part of it because of the time of year, and

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Speaker 1: it's affected by tides, so the waters coming up and down.

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Speaker 1: So had they come in there, you know, six or

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Speaker 1: eight hours later, they might not have found her remains.

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Speaker 1: But they did some testing. They did testing because they

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Speaker 1: were trying to figure out what's going on. And initially

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Speaker 1: the initial emmy, the medical examer who worked on all

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Speaker 1: of this, said that she didn't die of a drug reaction,

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Speaker 1: and odd bit supposedly she didn't have any drugs in

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Speaker 1: her system, which is completely opposite of the whole thing

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Speaker 1: that Brewer was saying. Wells left, well, that's what I

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Speaker 1: don't know how much soft tissue there was, and that

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Speaker 1: might be why he says that is that, you know,

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Speaker 1: it takes a long time for that stuff to to

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Speaker 1: be in such doses that you could find it in

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Speaker 1: the harder cartilages and bones that are left over from

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Speaker 1: a body. So presuming that there was a very minimal

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Speaker 1: amount of soft tissue left, which is why the test

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Speaker 1: didn't reflect any of it, I would think she would

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Speaker 1: have been just a skeleton pretty personally. I think everything

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Speaker 1: everything out there would have been nibbling on hers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but anything that's worth testing is probably gone by then. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I believe that's probably what what why it came

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Speaker 1: out the way it was. But a second review of

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Speaker 1: the body was done, uh, and that was, by the way,

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Speaker 1: prompted by her mother Mary, who had that done about

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Speaker 1: a year or so later I think it was or

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Speaker 1: several years actually. But the secondary review concluded that Shannon

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Speaker 1: had died of strangulation, and that was based on damage

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Speaker 1: that was done to one of the small bones in

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Speaker 1: her neck. The problem is is that that's not a

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Speaker 1: positive proof because at least one or two of the

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Speaker 1: other bones that were directly next to that one, we're missing,

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Speaker 1: like some small critter probably carried it away, or it's

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Speaker 1: sinking to the mocker or who knows. So it's not

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Speaker 1: iron clad that she was strangled. Well, you know, it

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Speaker 1: seems unlikely because out there in the middle of nowhere

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Speaker 1: and this in this possible suburb kind of thing, you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, somebody's just gonna jump out of the bushes

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Speaker 1: and choke her to death. I mean, maybe somebody wanted

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Speaker 1: to just shut the hell up. Well no, no, The thing,

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Speaker 1: you know, Joe, what what this is getting at, is that,

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Speaker 1: based on what we're gonna talk about in about two

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Speaker 1: paragraphs continuing on, is this was an attempt to link

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Speaker 1: her death to the other bodies that are found, and

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Speaker 1: a number of those bodies, if not all, are believed

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Speaker 1: to have been strangled. So it's in a it's it's

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Speaker 1: a buyer I considered a bias. It's you know, oh well,

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Speaker 1: all these other ones were strangled, So look for signs

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Speaker 1: of strangulation. Anything this could indicate. It becomes this is

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Speaker 1: definitely an indicator of strangulation. Yeah, don't that's how that happened.

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Speaker 1: I don't buy it. I think given her condition when

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Speaker 1: last scene, she probably drowned herself. Yeah, I mean, it's

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Speaker 1: it's hard to say death by misadventures is the most

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Speaker 1: that I'm willing to commit to. Um I called Shannon

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Speaker 1: the catalyst because the events surrounding her disappearance are what

390
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Speaker 1: causes a much more thorough search of the entire area,

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Speaker 1: and that is what brings to everyone's attention all of

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Speaker 1: the other bodies. Ums were really thrilled to find out. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: them for a dumping ground. Yeah. And and by the way,

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Speaker 1: Shannon still to this day is not so I've I've

395
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Speaker 1: said it was the Long Island serial killer, Gilgo Beach,

396
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 1: whichever you want to call it. She is not officially

397
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Speaker 1: considered one of the victims, right because he did killing elsewhere,

398
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Speaker 1: you know, and dumped the bodies there. Well, and that's

399
00:22:50,640 --> 00:22:53,160
Speaker 1: the thing is that again, Mary was I believe, trying

400
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Speaker 1: to push for the idea of she was killed and

401
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 1: then dumped there just like the other bodies had been.

402
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:03,680
Speaker 1: But um so that is the end of the Shannon,

403
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 1: except that there is one bad bit of follow up,

404
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:11,720
Speaker 1: which is that sadly, as I was doing the research

405
00:23:11,760 --> 00:23:13,880
Speaker 1: for this, which was about a month or so ago,

406
00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 1: that was about the time that unfortunately, Mary died of

407
00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:23,400
Speaker 1: violent death um, Shannon's other sister, one of her other sisters, Sarah,

408
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:27,720
Speaker 1: apparently she's schizophrenic, was in an episode and something happened,

409
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Speaker 1: and Mary, I believe, was stabbed. At last I knew

410
00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 1: Sarah was in in custody. There's not a whole lot

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Speaker 1: of details out there. So it's a terrible thing for

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Speaker 1: a family that already gone through all that freaking tragedy

413
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Speaker 1: and everything that had happened. But so that's that's why

414
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Speaker 1: I wanted to kind of finish up with Shannon. So

415
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: we're gonna then move into the second chapter, which is

416
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 1: the Burlap Victims. So, as we had talked about before,

417
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Speaker 1: the police had been searching for Shannon, and they've been

418
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: looking in the area and eventually, you know, after a

419
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: certain amount of time, they had to call off the

420
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: search for her. Now there's a police officer named John.

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Speaker 1: I want to say the last name is pronounced Malia.

422
00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: But he was one half of a canine unit. Mal Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what could be one of the two. But John was

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Speaker 1: one half of a police unit. His partner was a

425
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: German shepherd named Blue. I'm pretty sure it's pronounced blue,

426
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 1: and he he knew about the search for Shannon. He

427
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: was pretty sure he had come to the conclusion that

428
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:34,439
Speaker 1: she wasn't gonna be found alive, and he said, well,

429
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 1: this is a great way to do some on the

430
00:24:36,359 --> 00:24:40,240
Speaker 1: job training. Uh, this is the official story, by the way,

431
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: So he would go. He was walking up and down

432
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: the road in that area over the course of the

433
00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,399
Speaker 1: summer in the fall of It could be that he

434
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: just liked to walk the dog there, but he was

435
00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 1: using that officially as training to search for her while

436
00:24:56,800 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: they were in that area. As winter months came, vegetation

437
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,400
Speaker 1: starts dying back. They can go farther and farther into

438
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 1: the veget where the vegetation used to be. And on

439
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: the eleventh of December, Blue triggered on a site in

440
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: the brush, which is just off the side of Ocean

441
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:20,800
Speaker 1: Parkway in Gelgo Beach. What Blue had found, after digging

442
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 1: just a little bit in the ground, was the skeletal

443
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:28,920
Speaker 1: remains of a woman whose name was Melissa Barthelemy. And

444
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:30,840
Speaker 1: like I said, she was just a little bit under

445
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,639
Speaker 1: the surface and her body was yeah shallow grave, and

446
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: her body was wrapped in burlap. Never found in deep

447
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:41,080
Speaker 1: graves rarely. Usually that's actually very intentional when they're found

448
00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:44,640
Speaker 1: in deep graves typically, but over some of course, obviously,

449
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: the police swarm in the area and over the next

450
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 1: two days they start scouring the area and they find

451
00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:55,159
Speaker 1: three more bodies, each one wrapped in burlap. And the

452
00:25:55,240 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: bodies belong to Marine Brainard Barnes, Megan Waterman, and Amber

453
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: Lynn Costello. And how far they were pretty closely budged

454
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 1: talking from each other. I would say a few yards

455
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:15,399
Speaker 1: if I remember correctly. But again it's it's so many sites.

456
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 1: Because this is the first of several dump sites that

457
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,840
Speaker 1: we're going to go through, I believe that this was

458
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:24,720
Speaker 1: the tightest packed bunch. Uh. The next seth that we're

459
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: gonna talk about, we're more spread about. Maureen was twenty

460
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: five and she had last been seen on the ninth

461
00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:35,360
Speaker 1: of July two thousand seven. She was she was seen

462
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: in two seven. Yes, Melissa was twenty four and had

463
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,080
Speaker 1: been missing since the tenth of July two thousand nine.

464
00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 1: Megan was twenty two and had been missing since the

465
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:51,240
Speaker 1: sixth of June. And Amber was twenty seven and had

466
00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 1: been missing since the second of September. And what else

467
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: these women have in common, Well, there's actually quite a

468
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 1: few commonalities. All four were prostest suits. They apparently had

469
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: all been using Craigslist to advertise their services. I've read

470
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,440
Speaker 1: that all but Maureen had also been using another website

471
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 1: which is called back Page, which I'd never heard of

472
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: and never used. But when I understand it's it's it's

473
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 1: very similar to Craigslist. I went to back Page, thinking,

474
00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 1: oh God, I'm going to get a virus on my computer.

475
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: Turns that it's just a listing site, just like Craigslist is.

476
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:30,160
Speaker 1: It's not sex stuff. That's yeah. Um, Amber was at

477
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:35,120
Speaker 1: the time unknown heroin user, and it's believed that all

478
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: of the women at the time were using most likely cocaine,

479
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 1: maybe not habitually, but they were cocaine users, probably also

480
00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,240
Speaker 1: using marijuana, which you know, if it's it's the business,

481
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: it lends itself to that they all have. Yeah, it doesn't. Yeah. Yeah.

482
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: They all were very physically similar, and that kind of

483
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:01,960
Speaker 1: have this an idea that maybe whoever was doing this

484
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 1: had a type, because they also were all very similar.

485
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: They were all under five ft six inches tall or

486
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,120
Speaker 1: a hundred and sixty seven centimeters or sixteen point five hands,

487
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: uh and about a hundred and ten pounds which is

488
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,000
Speaker 1: equivalent to about fifty km or seven point eight five

489
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: stones or less. And they were all blonde at the time,

490
00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: or at least had blonde in their hair, so highlights

491
00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: stuff like that. And and like I said this, this

492
00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: is pointed to as something to say that whoever did

493
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: this had a quote unquote type. Okay, although I wouldn't

494
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 1: say so much about the high because I think, you know,

495
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:45,479
Speaker 1: there isn't the average height of a North American female

496
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: woman like five four Well, some of these ladies were.

497
00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: Most of them were five six and under. So most

498
00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: of them, actually several of them I thinking was like

499
00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,640
Speaker 1: four ten, Yeah, so they were they were all there

500
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,560
Speaker 1: was no it wasn't as if there was a five

501
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 1: and nine inch tall woman in the mix. And they

502
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 1: were all under a hundred ten pounds, right, very very thin. Actually,

503
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 1: if you want to find a woman a strangler and overpower,

504
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:15,520
Speaker 1: you don't want to be tackling some six foot amazon. Probably, Yeah,

505
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:17,960
Speaker 1: we need to not go in his basement. He says

506
00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 1: things like that with too much really scares the crap

507
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: out of me. But like for reference, right, like I'm

508
00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 1: five and I don't weigh a hundred and ten pounds like,

509
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: and I don't think I'm searching for compliments here, and

510
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 1: so like for reference, like if you subtract pounds from me,

511
00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:43,080
Speaker 1: even ten pounds, even if even if I'm a hundred

512
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: twenty pounds, like that's a tiny person, and then add

513
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 1: a couple inches to me, those are really like pretty scary. Yes,

514
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: And if you have an average male anything, an average

515
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,520
Speaker 1: male in this country is five ft nine and a

516
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,840
Speaker 1: hundred eighty pounds, is that sixty to eighty I think

517
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm ballparking here area, But that that it's not hard

518
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: to overpower somebody who is that much shorter and that

519
00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: much lighter than you. So the point is it is

520
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: pointing out that maybe there was a type um when really,

521
00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,040
Speaker 1: you know, sixteen and a half hands is just like yeah,

522
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: and I had mentioned this a little bit we were

523
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: talking about Shannon, is that these women were all their

524
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 1: cause of death was all strangulations. Yeah, So that's why

525
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: I brought that up. We were talking about the secondary

526
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: examination of Shannon's body, of course, was not found in

527
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,600
Speaker 1: Burlapp right, correct. Now, all these women when they disappeared,

528
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: they just evaporated. They were gone, with the exception of

529
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: Melissa because one week after her disappearance, her fifteen year

530
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 1: old sister Amanda started getting calls from her cell phone.

531
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: But it wasn't Melissa, and she received it's about I

532
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: think it's a total of eight calls. And it happened

533
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: over the course of about a month and a half.

534
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 1: And this caller got slowly more and more aggressive, and

535
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: it's reported to have been playing with her. That's what

536
00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:06,400
Speaker 1: the reporting will always refer to it as Melissa is

537
00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: the one who disappeared in two thousand nine. Yes, okay,

538
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: I mean I'm just thinking, like, why would you do that? Right?

539
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 1: And I guess in my estimation, I guess two thousand nine.

540
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: And I'm trying to think. I think I had like

541
00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:22,640
Speaker 1: an iPhone. Most people had second iPhone. I mean they weren't.

542
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 1: It wasn't smartphone mania, but but everybody had a cell

543
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: at that point. Like, did you think Melissa had like

544
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: a picture of her fifteen year old sister sleeve? Well,

545
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 1: but it could be as simple as little sister Amanda

546
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: was what it said in her phone book? Could have

547
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: said that, or could have it could have been that

548
00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: he kept her alive for a while and just got

549
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: some information. Yeah, I I don't know, and what we

550
00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: do we do know is that we're pretty sure that

551
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:53,560
Speaker 1: it wasn't just some random crank because of the things

552
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,440
Speaker 1: that the caller said. Um. Now that the caller always

553
00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 1: got off the phone within three minutes, so calls were

554
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 1: not traceable. Um, but they do say that, well, they

555
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: couldn't get him to a specific exact address. I know,

556
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: I know, and we're gonna were I know, and we're

557
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,760
Speaker 1: gonna talk about that shortly. But they did. They tracked

558
00:32:11,760 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 1: some calls to Time to Square, but obviously nothing happened

559
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: about it because as the police rushed into Times Squared

560
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: looking around for somebody on their cell phone, they saw everybody.

561
00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: Uh so they they specifically ran in all the porn

562
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: shops they did. I understand there's a lot of porn

563
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 1: shops in Times Squares. I I didn't know this, but

564
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: apparently according to this yeah, or at least enough for

565
00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 1: the police to be like, oh, yeah, it's it's this

566
00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:35,719
Speaker 1: one that when this one is where you're gonna go.

567
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. But the reason I said that we

568
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:41,880
Speaker 1: know that this person couldn't have just been some random

569
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,600
Speaker 1: crank is that on the I think it was the

570
00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: last call the killer made or the caller, I should say,

571
00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 1: not the killer, but the caller made the statement of

572
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 1: I'm watching your sister's body rots. It such a wonderful

573
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 1: thing to say to fifteen year old girl, right, yeah, clean, yeah,

574
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:03,239
Speaker 1: we real. And anybody who strangles prostitutes probably not like

575
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 1: the cream of the probably not exactly the most compassionate

576
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: personal And actually, I guess I have one point of clarification,

577
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: because I know we're drawing to the end of this chapter.

578
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: But do you know you may not know this, this

579
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: may not be public knowledge, but the bodies that were

580
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 1: wrapped in bur lap. Were they wrapped in bur lap

581
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:25,240
Speaker 1: when they were totally together and then there they rotted

582
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: in the burlap? Or were they did they have some

583
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 1: did they decompose and then get thrown into the burn

584
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 1: lap and then thrown in the grown or were they

585
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:39,080
Speaker 1: like totally bodies. And I don't know for sure. I've

586
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: gotten the impression from all of the stuff that's out

587
00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: there that the bodies were wrapped in bur lap upon

588
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: their dumping. And the reason that I think that is

589
00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 1: the the newest body she had only been missing since

590
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: September and this is December, so that's two or three

591
00:33:55,920 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 1: months and she was in bur lap, So I have

592
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 1: to presume that they were in the burlap when they

593
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: were put in the ground. And it's the way I

594
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,560
Speaker 1: understand it is that they were though they were deposited

595
00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:11,759
Speaker 1: at different times, they were in the burlap when they

596
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 1: were putting into the ground, and they would have been

597
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:17,000
Speaker 1: relatively fresh. But that's a that's a supposition on my

598
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 1: part based on all the stuff that i've That's my question, right,

599
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: is because if she was getting all these calls and

600
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 1: they were going on for like a month, and the

601
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: caller at the end of the months that I'm watching,

602
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: your sister's sicko has got her in the back room somewhere,

603
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 1: just start watching it raw then wrapped in this But

604
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's not really that important interesting, But yeah,

605
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:39,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. What I'm interested in knowing is the

606
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:41,800
Speaker 1: police are trying to trace these calls. Did they record

607
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: the calls? I mean, you would think they were likely,

608
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: But why would they ever release those to the public,

609
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: especially since I could think of a case I could

610
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: think of a great reason to listen to the public.

611
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: You might release tidbits, well, and you don't have to

612
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: release everything, but but at least some someones that don't

613
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,799
Speaker 1: give away critical information, because if you had it all

614
00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: over the TV news, in the radio, somebody might nice voice. Um,

615
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: it just seems like kind of an obvious thing to

616
00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:08,520
Speaker 1: do that. I will disagree with that because I have

617
00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,359
Speaker 1: heard so many people on the phone who sounded like

618
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: other people I knew. I mean, you know, I work

619
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: at a call center, and like people will be like,

620
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: Steve is obviously this dude from this other radio show,

621
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: and we're like, or what's his name from It's always

622
00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: sunny in Philadelphia, or Joe Joe is the one who

623
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 1: gets you. Sir. Would be in jail so fast if

624
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: they put those out, because everybody says you sound like

625
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,120
Speaker 1: everybody else with any kind of baritone voice. I know,

626
00:35:37,360 --> 00:35:40,239
Speaker 1: I know. I'm I'm thinking like more like somebody who

627
00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: knows somebody really well, like if you know you know,

628
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: but you know you work with them every day. Yeah,

629
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,720
Speaker 1: I just I'm just saying that they're they're totally obviously

630
00:35:48,760 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: at a dead end on this, and I would say

631
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,640
Speaker 1: that Mary, that would be a good Hall Mary play.

632
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 1: I think believing that is a trap that you were

633
00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: setting yourself up for for a whole bunch of leg words. Oh,

634
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: they never do. They gotta get a lot of false leaves,

635
00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: for sure. But I'm just saying, if they really want

636
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,359
Speaker 1: to solve this, I think that that's about the only

637
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: way they're going to be able to do it. Stanford

638
00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: Chapter three. Chapter three, I've titled the Dismembered Victims um

639
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,399
Speaker 1: and I think that it probably goes without saying that

640
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: upon the discovery of the four bodies in Burlap, the

641
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: news media went guando crazy and swarmed the area and

642
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: probably like sort of like you know, prompted a lot

643
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,719
Speaker 1: more searching. Oh yeah, it did prop more searching. But

644
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: it also they put out there that it was all

645
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: caps obvious that there was a serial killer at work here. Well, yeah,

646
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,400
Speaker 1: the you know this, this forced the cops, as you're saying,

647
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:49,160
Speaker 1: to kind of step up their game, and uh, they

648
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:54,320
Speaker 1: kept looking around much much like the the issue with Shannon.

649
00:36:54,719 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: The cops had to you know, stop for part of

650
00:36:57,520 --> 00:36:59,400
Speaker 1: the growing season, and then in the winter months they

651
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 1: would start to do their stuff again. But um, so

652
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: they like bad weather, bad weather. When was sandy came No, no,

653
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: this was before Sandy came through this and two thousand

654
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: and eleven is when we're moving into But yes, and

655
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: he was two thousand twelve. It was it was Neumber

656
00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven. Okay, it was there for Sandy. How

657
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:27,680
Speaker 1: was it non event where I was? So the police

658
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: kept searching and after the initial discovery they had waited

659
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: a couple of months and then so again that industrial

660
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 1: discovery was December. We moved into March of eleven when

661
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 1: things were defrosting, and the police start their search on

662
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 1: the twenty nine of March, and depending on the source,

663
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 1: either that very day or the following day they found

664
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:57,560
Speaker 1: they found a partial set of remains, and that was

665
00:37:57,880 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: a head, hands, and four arms um and those, by

666
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: the way, were linked to the torso of a body

667
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: of a woman named Jessica Taylor. She, by the way,

668
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 1: was these parts were not wrapped in burlap. Jessica was

669
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:16,279
Speaker 1: was also a prostitute. And the torso had already been found, right,

670
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 1: torso had been found. The torso had been found in

671
00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: two thousand and three on the twenty six of July

672
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: in the town of Manorville, New York, which is it's

673
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 1: like ten or twelve miles away from Yogo Beach Ballpark

674
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: is the crow flies. The parts they found. Were they

675
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:40,359
Speaker 1: just bo Yeah, they were partial remains. The state of

676
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 1: them is not listed, but I would imagine that after

677
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 1: that amount of time, we're basically talking about skeletal remains.

678
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:48,759
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say that any time the

679
00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 1: police say partial remains, they just mean two gruesome. For

680
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: public consumption, probably for most of us, the whole idea

681
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:59,080
Speaker 1: of chopping up a dead body is, you know, kind

682
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:03,640
Speaker 1: of unthinkable. Let's go, let's move on. Okay, So we're

683
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:07,359
Speaker 1: gonna move on to the fourth of April of at

684
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 1: which point three more bodies are found. Uh. These bodies

685
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 1: are found deeper in the brush, off the side of

686
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:17,160
Speaker 1: the road, and they are also not wrapped in burlap

687
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: like Jessica. One of the sets of remains found that

688
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,880
Speaker 1: day were partial. They were also linked to an unknown

689
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:28,480
Speaker 1: woman's torso that was found in Manerville or Mannerville excuse me,

690
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,640
Speaker 1: on the nineteen November two thousand. Well that's kind of

691
00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:34,600
Speaker 1: wonder what this did of the property values out there

692
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:38,319
Speaker 1: in Mannerville Beach, both of them. Yeah, No, it didn't

693
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: do good things for either of them. One of the

694
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: other bodies was identity The identity is unknown, but the

695
00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 1: body was determined to be that of an Asian man

696
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: who was wearing women's clothing, and the last body to

697
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 1: be found was that of a toddler who was wrapped

698
00:39:56,200 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 1: in a blanket and her identity is yet unknown. They

699
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,400
Speaker 1: were is terrible to point out, but again not entirely

700
00:40:05,520 --> 00:40:08,160
Speaker 1: intact based on how long they had been there. But

701
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, that could have just been animals, animals, wave action,

702
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,920
Speaker 1: everything like that. We don't know if they were scattered

703
00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:19,080
Speaker 1: intentionally or just over time. But they were all on

704
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 1: a pretty close part. They were all at a very

705
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 1: close radius. Yes, yeah, so so you got like, so

706
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:27,239
Speaker 1: we got the four bur laps, we've got the two

707
00:40:27,320 --> 00:40:30,279
Speaker 1: Torso murders. Well, we've got four sets of remains. No

708
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 1: that we've got four bur laps. We did have an

709
00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: additional four sets of remains that are found. Part of

710
00:40:36,600 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 1: those are the torsos that were tied to the Manorville

711
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 1: Manorville's torsos. Yeah, and well, am I catting wrong side?

712
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,120
Speaker 1: I think there's like, you don't do your math now, Joe.

713
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: We're not done. We're not done. Stop that. I can

714
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: see where you're going when you're when you're counting on

715
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: your fingers. I know what you're doing. Um, because we're sorry.

716
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:55,719
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, at some point we will

717
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 1: do like a live taping of podcasts, probably so people

718
00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 1: can see what a cluster it is, and mostly so

719
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:06,960
Speaker 1: that everybody can see the faces that I think people are, like,

720
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: you're so insensitive, but like, if you could see the

721
00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:13,719
Speaker 1: faces that we all make when we're talking about this,

722
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:16,520
Speaker 1: you understand that. Yeah, one of us just just forge

723
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:21,120
Speaker 1: us through and keeps talking and just uh so we're okay,

724
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: So we're not done yet. Yeah, we've got the Asian

725
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 1: man and the toddler. On the eleventh of April, two

726
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,760
Speaker 1: more sets of her remains are found farther down the beach.

727
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 1: One set of it was a set of human bones

728
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: in a plastic bag, and the other was just a skull.

729
00:41:39,840 --> 00:41:45,240
Speaker 1: The skull yeah sorry. The skull would later be connected

730
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 1: to a pair of severed legs that were found in

731
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,359
Speaker 1: April of on Fire Island to the east. The skull

732
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:56,600
Speaker 1: and the legs were never connected to any other body parts, well,

733
00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 1: originally they were before they were separated. Another I would

734
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: think every time you found a set of body parts,

735
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: you know, out there on the island, you just directly

736
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: go over to Manerville and start looking for the tour. Yeah,

737
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 1: that's not a bad point, um. But the skull and

738
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: the legs that it was eventually connected to, we're also

739
00:42:16,840 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 1: we're run through DNA testing. By the way, the identity

740
00:42:19,719 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 1: of that individual is unknown, and that was then connected

741
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:27,680
Speaker 1: and determined to be the mother of the toddler that

742
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,200
Speaker 1: was found on the fourth of April. You had asked

743
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: for this story, what one of minor listeners that you

744
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,320
Speaker 1: guys asked. Yeah, Now, I did a bunch of reading

745
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: for links that weren't focused on the Craigslist or the

746
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:49,040
Speaker 1: prostitution angle, UM, and I came across some accounts from

747
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: the families of the identified victims. So of these now

748
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:58,040
Speaker 1: not counting Shannon, ten bodies that we've come across, and

749
00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:00,520
Speaker 1: it turns out they're the ones that have been identified.

750
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: Just as an again a kind of a global what

751
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 1: is their connections? They were they were all prostitutes at

752
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 1: one point or at some point. Yeah, probably not the

753
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,920
Speaker 1: Tyler um. And it's it's not a lock that all

754
00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 1: of these women were on drugs, Like we kind of

755
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,439
Speaker 1: know that the first four were. Um. But you'll see

756
00:43:22,560 --> 00:43:25,480
Speaker 1: that brought up in the reading you'll also see Heroin

757
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 1: brought up in the reading, so it's it's a very

758
00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:31,680
Speaker 1: it's a very close circle of these things, but there's

759
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: not a whole lot. It's not as if they all

760
00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: work for, say the same pimp or something like that,

761
00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: so it's it's very hard to tie them all together.

762
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 1: I also, this is really you ever read something as

763
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: you're doing reading or researching, like, I've never heard that

764
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: phrase before, and I kind of wish I never had.

765
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:51,799
Speaker 1: And I came across the phrase the missing missing, which

766
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,160
Speaker 1: is one of the most heartbreaking that I've seen this before.

767
00:43:55,600 --> 00:43:57,640
Speaker 1: I had to be honest with you when I see

768
00:43:57,680 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: this in research, I stopped researching case because I can't.

769
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: It's too too much, too much for me. For people

770
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:09,240
Speaker 1: who don't know the missing missing are people who don't

771
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:11,920
Speaker 1: have anyone close enough to them to notice that they

772
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 1: are gone to file a missing person's report. So they

773
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: are truly they have just disappeared from the face of

774
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:23,200
Speaker 1: the earth and nobody uh, you know, close enough to

775
00:44:23,640 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 1: notice and report it or notices and just assumes they

776
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: want somewhere else. Yeah, that's so sad to me. Sure

777
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,919
Speaker 1: that that's an ideal victim for a serial killer. Yeah,

778
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 1: So I mean there's there's there's certain demographics that are

779
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: focused upon Yeah, and especially prostitutes because obviously that's easy.

780
00:44:44,360 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 1: It's a dangerous lifestyle. Well, it's it's easy to get

781
00:44:46,560 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: a prostitute to come with the climb into your car

782
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 1: with you, or coming to meet you somewhere. Drug addicts

783
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:54,160
Speaker 1: a lot. Yeah, you know, you say, oh yeah, yeah, no, um,

784
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:56,719
Speaker 1: come come with me. I'll take you to where we

785
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 1: can get some. And that's that's the hard part, is it.

786
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:00,919
Speaker 1: And I you know, we talked about this a little

787
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: bit in the last story. It does I don't want

788
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 1: to sound like I'm bashing anybody. Yeah, Like in that story,

789
00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:08,120
Speaker 1: I openly admit that I had an issue with somebody

790
00:45:08,160 --> 00:45:11,160
Speaker 1: in this. I'm not intending to come across as bashing anybody.

791
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: There are just a million reasons that someone gets into

792
00:45:16,520 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: that lifestyle, and I'm not saying that, I'm not saying

793
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: anything against it. It's a choice. It's well it's not

794
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 1: always a choice actually, so well, sometimes people are forced

795
00:45:26,960 --> 00:45:30,320
Speaker 1: into it. Yeah, so it's it's it's really hard to

796
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: try and put a finger on any of it. But

797
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,279
Speaker 1: but let's let's move away from that because I just

798
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 1: want to finish up before we get into theories. What

799
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: Joe started to ask about before, which is the count.

800
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:48,480
Speaker 1: If you've kept count including Shannon, I am at eleven bodies.

801
00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:51,319
Speaker 1: Shannon should not be included that, but I did at

802
00:45:51,320 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 1: the beginning say that there was twelve or more. And

803
00:45:55,000 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 1: I did that on purpose because when you read the

804
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:03,480
Speaker 1: reporting now, any time a body is found on any

805
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:07,320
Speaker 1: of the Barrier Islands off of the southeast side of

806
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:11,880
Speaker 1: Long Island, they are or somebody goes missing, they are

807
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 1: immediately connected to the Long Island serial killer. And there

808
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:20,400
Speaker 1: are so many that are immediately discovered what actually happened

809
00:46:20,400 --> 00:46:23,560
Speaker 1: and pulled back off. Recently, in the last year or two,

810
00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:27,239
Speaker 1: there have been at least four women's bodies that have

811
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 1: been found, whether whole or partial, who the investigators are

812
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: still unclear if they are connected or are not connected.

813
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 1: And that's again, and then there's other ones that have

814
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: gone missing and been found and then it was figured

815
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: out what happened and they're definitely not related. But a

816
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:48,360
Speaker 1: lot of women seem to be dying in this area,

817
00:46:48,480 --> 00:46:51,320
Speaker 1: so at least are dumped in this area. Yes, that

818
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: is a very as a very good point to mand. Yeah,

819
00:46:54,640 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: and uh, you know, so I not to jump the gun.

820
00:46:57,880 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 1: I think it could be all kinds of different killers

821
00:47:00,480 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: out there. Well, Joe's Joe's already putting out a theory,

822
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: so we should probably get into theories. So theory number one,

823
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: dury number one, is that this is all the work

824
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:14,360
Speaker 1: of a single serial killer. Okay, So just to clarify,

825
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: the dismembered bodies were found in fairly relatively close proximity

826
00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: to the Burlap ones, right, they're on the same road

827
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:28,320
Speaker 1: on that island actually, but but I mean we're pretty

828
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: close to each other, right, relatively speaking. Yes, but um so,

829
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: but you always hear it's this is all all the

830
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: work of a single killer. Um and it is a

831
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:45,400
Speaker 1: prostitute obsessed serial killer who loves to use Oak Island

832
00:47:45,440 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: as their dumping well, and this would be one of

833
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: the most prolific serial killers in the history of the

834
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 1: United States, wouldn't it not. Now, there's there's been some

835
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,600
Speaker 1: people who were well racked up some higher numbers. If

836
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:59,000
Speaker 1: you take the top highest number I've heard for this

837
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,080
Speaker 1: one is seventeen you know, confirmed. Yeah, but that's not

838
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 1: necessarily done by the same Well. Yeah, and there's well,

839
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 1: there's guys like B. T. K. He took big gaps,

840
00:48:09,040 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: but he did quite a few of The Green River

841
00:48:10,840 --> 00:48:14,279
Speaker 1: Killer did a bunch. Um. Gay Cy had quite a

842
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:18,359
Speaker 1: few people under his house. I don't know how many

843
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:21,800
Speaker 1: he ate. Um. But you know what scares me about

844
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,120
Speaker 1: him is that he worked in a chocolate factory. Can

845
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:31,719
Speaker 1: we stop this please? Okay? So logically, logically speaking, it

846
00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:35,240
Speaker 1: makes sense to think that it's just a single killer.

847
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:38,640
Speaker 1: They've got a thing for prostitutes, and they found this

848
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:42,839
Speaker 1: great place to dump all the bodies. Um. As we've

849
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: just talked about. You know, we've listed off some people.

850
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:47,920
Speaker 1: Gary Ridgeway, who was the Green River Killer here in

851
00:48:48,000 --> 00:48:50,480
Speaker 1: the Pacific Northwest. He dumped all his bodies in the

852
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:55,239
Speaker 1: same place all the time. Um. There's two guys. There's

853
00:48:55,400 --> 00:49:00,400
Speaker 1: Robert Shulman and Joel Rifkin. They're famous examples. UM. And

854
00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 1: they were actually very their local to the area there

855
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 1: in New York in jail by, Like, wasn't he thank

856
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:12,040
Speaker 1: you for just stepping all over that. Good job, Joe. Um.

857
00:49:12,120 --> 00:49:14,880
Speaker 1: Now we're gonna talk about that in just a second. Um. Now,

858
00:49:15,160 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 1: well you know what Ridgeway I mean. I mentioned him

859
00:49:16,920 --> 00:49:19,600
Speaker 1: as an example He's by no means a viable Kennedys

860
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: on the wrong side of the fricking country. People can

861
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:27,000
Speaker 1: travel airplane. Yeah, but he was very, very prolific in

862
00:49:27,160 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: in the Washington area. But Shulman and Rifken are always

863
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 1: called possibilities. Typically they were only connected to the older bodies.

864
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:39,200
Speaker 1: And that is because, as Joe said that there's some

865
00:49:39,719 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 1: you know, being in jail and arrested issues. Showman worked

866
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:46,760
Speaker 1: twelve miles away from where the bodies were found. Rifkin

867
00:49:46,840 --> 00:49:49,560
Speaker 1: worked or lived ten miles away from where they were found.

868
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: But Solman was arrested nineties six and then executed in

869
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 1: two thousand six, and Rifkin began his two hundred and

870
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 1: three year prison sentence in might be too short. Yeah,

871
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 1: I think they were light on him, but you know,

872
00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:08,680
Speaker 1: that's just me. But since we're in the serial, let's

873
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 1: talk about a couple of things that are pointed out

874
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,279
Speaker 1: and we can kind of talk about it if you want.

875
00:50:13,000 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 1: These are things that are always pointed to. People always

876
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 1: say that the killer had to have intimate knowledge of

877
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 1: the area to know where to dump the bodies. It's

878
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,760
Speaker 1: kind of a pull off on the road. Ocean ocean

879
00:50:26,800 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: Parkway is the main road that runs the length of

880
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:33,320
Speaker 1: the island, which it's it's two lanes in each direction

881
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,720
Speaker 1: with the what is it when you call the natural

882
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,759
Speaker 1: medium between and when it's scrub rushing grass, So it's

883
00:50:38,840 --> 00:50:42,840
Speaker 1: not four lanes connected the two lanes anyway, Median media,

884
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 1: thank you. I wasn't sure if a median actually met

885
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 1: the stupid concrete k rails or anything delineating the two

886
00:50:49,160 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: as a medium. I think I'm not so sure that

887
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 1: you would have had to have an intimate knowledge because

888
00:50:54,480 --> 00:50:58,759
Speaker 1: they're pretty geographically, they're pretty damn simple. Yeah, And you'll

889
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:00,479
Speaker 1: also hear people saying, well if he if he didn't

890
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:02,360
Speaker 1: live on the island, people say it had to be

891
00:51:02,400 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: a resident of the island. But if it wasn't a

892
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: resident of the island, then they had to at least

893
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 1: spend some time, say summering there. So now now they're

894
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:12,000
Speaker 1: saying it's a summering tourist who stays in that area.

895
00:51:12,160 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: I feel like, Okay, so I'm gonna admit something, and

896
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to say that it's because we do this podcast,

897
00:51:19,760 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: but maybe not. But do you guys ever just drive

898
00:51:22,640 --> 00:51:24,200
Speaker 1: through an area and you go, oh, crap. You could

899
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 1: totally drop a body there. No. I have looked off

900
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:30,520
Speaker 1: and go I wonder, I wonder what's down that little

901
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 1: that little something, that little access road area right there. Yeah,

902
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 1: And it's not like and you can do that one time, right,

903
00:51:37,160 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 1: and if you're a serial killer, you can stop. You stop,

904
00:51:40,440 --> 00:51:42,279
Speaker 1: and you think, oh yeah, no, this would totally be

905
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:45,319
Speaker 1: a good spot. You only have to go past there once, right,

906
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:47,160
Speaker 1: You don't have to have been there, you don't have

907
00:51:47,280 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: to live there, you don't have to be summering there

908
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: every summer since boyhood. You don't like any of that stuff.

909
00:51:53,520 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 1: And it's very it's very easy to do that kind

910
00:51:55,360 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 1: of stuff and not get in trouble um, you know.

911
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 1: I mean there's there's weird little spots on the road

912
00:52:00,239 --> 00:52:02,799
Speaker 1: between my house and the main drag and I've had

913
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 1: to pull off. And when I pulled off into this

914
00:52:04,880 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 1: weird gravel area, I realized that there was another road

915
00:52:08,640 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 1: that led away. I was like, well, that's strange. Well,

916
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: if somebody had come up and said, hey, what do

917
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,240
Speaker 1: you do? And this is railroad property, which I realized

918
00:52:15,280 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: by the sign that I read once I was stopped

919
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 1: and I said, I'm sorry, I stopped. I'm trying to

920
00:52:20,360 --> 00:52:22,800
Speaker 1: figure out where I'm at and keep going, and nobody

921
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:27,440
Speaker 1: would ever be as yes, right, sorry, I was trying

922
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,399
Speaker 1: to find a private place to just you know, take Yeah. Yeah,

923
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:31,920
Speaker 1: it's gonna open the car door and I want to

924
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:33,880
Speaker 1: be facing the road. Sorry about that. Yeah, I mean

925
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: there's a million things. And that's also something that they

926
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: always say is that the killer had to have a vehicle,

927
00:52:39,120 --> 00:52:47,560
Speaker 1: which actually totally makes sense supportunately les. The thing, however,

928
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: is rentals. Yeah, well I doubt they were using Uber. No.

929
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:57,800
Speaker 1: But if it were me, and again I'm sorry to

930
00:52:57,840 --> 00:52:59,720
Speaker 1: say this in this room, but I'm a small female,

931
00:52:59,760 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 1: so you guys can take me if you like, have to, um,

932
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:04,279
Speaker 1: but if I were trying to dispose of a body,

933
00:53:04,320 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: I would rent a car. Quen Joe, get the trunk.

934
00:53:06,680 --> 00:53:08,560
Speaker 1: We're gonna shove in that sense, I mean, right, I

935
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 1: wouldn't use my own car. Why would you use your

936
00:53:10,560 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 1: own car a bunch of times, you know, the off

937
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:16,880
Speaker 1: chance that somebody sees you dumping the body. Okay, No,

938
00:53:17,000 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 1: I I gotta say that if if if I am

939
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:22,040
Speaker 1: intending to dump a body, I'm probably not going to

940
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 1: do it in the daytime. Well, I'm gonna do it

941
00:53:24,120 --> 00:53:26,400
Speaker 1: at night, and I'm probably gonna have something that is,

942
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 1: you know, semi sheltered, so I can pull off, so

943
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: not blatantly sitting on the side of the road, but

944
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 1: I could just pull my car off the side road

945
00:53:34,160 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 1: and get out of the car, stand in the bushes wait,

946
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:41,000
Speaker 1: knowing that Okay, if I see lights, it takes five

947
00:53:41,040 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 1: minutes for those lights to get me, run to the car,

948
00:53:43,719 --> 00:53:46,239
Speaker 1: open the trunk, and drag the body away like it

949
00:53:46,560 --> 00:53:48,759
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be some super and then if if

950
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:52,800
Speaker 1: somebody pulls up, you just stay in the bushes. But

951
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 1: I just I guess the reason I would do a

952
00:53:55,400 --> 00:53:57,480
Speaker 1: you know, I would do a rental car is not

953
00:53:57,760 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 1: for the license plate or anything like that, but at

954
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:02,160
Speaker 1: the very least evidence left in the trunk or the

955
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 1: sea from all these women in your car. Like, no,

956
00:54:05,520 --> 00:54:08,279
Speaker 1: there's no way to track they can pin one on you.

957
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:11,359
Speaker 1: There'll be d NA, I mean, but you know burlap. Yeah,

958
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 1: hopefully by the time by the time they find you

959
00:54:14,360 --> 00:54:16,239
Speaker 1: and check your credit card records and find that you

960
00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 1: rented a car, they somehow managed to track down the car.

961
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:23,440
Speaker 1: They probably had had it detailed. You know, numerous times

962
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, and all kinds of people have been in

963
00:54:25,200 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 1: and out of that trunk and stuff, and then it's

964
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: one single eyewitness thing. Yeah, I saw a car. I

965
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 1: think this was a license plate. You can always well,

966
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: you know, and people's recollection of license plates is terrible

967
00:54:37,480 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 1: because like, um, I think I told you too. This

968
00:54:40,200 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 1: was this summer, my wife's car got backed into in

969
00:54:42,920 --> 00:54:46,200
Speaker 1: a hardware store parking lot and some guy was standing

970
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,759
Speaker 1: there and watch the yo, yo that did it get

971
00:54:48,800 --> 00:54:50,360
Speaker 1: out of his car, get back into his car and

972
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: drive away, and he's like the license plate was and

973
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 1: he stops and you can see like this whole process

974
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 1: in his head, and he spat out the license plate number.

975
00:54:59,320 --> 00:55:01,800
Speaker 1: But he was wrong because we looked at the security

976
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:06,640
Speaker 1: issue a video he had. One of the the alphabet

977
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,440
Speaker 1: characters was incorrect. So I mean, but but that is

978
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 1: a guy who was standing in a in a very

979
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:17,319
Speaker 1: stable environment and then resting it, and who actually had

980
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,440
Speaker 1: a reason to look at that license number. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

981
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: Not somebody driving. But realistically, yes, there had to be

982
00:55:23,600 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 1: a vehicle involved, but that person did not necessarily to

983
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,680
Speaker 1: own a vehicle. Correct. The next thing you're going to

984
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 1: be pointed to when you do all of this is,

985
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: which is actually kind of likely, is that he would

986
00:55:37,120 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: have frequented prostitutes, and he could very well have been

987
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:45,759
Speaker 1: a John that these women had been with before they

988
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 1: were killed as an and a time before or an

989
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:53,360
Speaker 1: encounter before, because it turns out if a John finds

990
00:55:53,440 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 1: a woman who does what he likes, he's likely to

991
00:55:56,680 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 1: go back. I also suspect I am not a prostitute,

992
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: nor have I ever been a prostitute, nor do I

993
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:05,560
Speaker 1: know anything about the profession of being a prostitute. However,

994
00:56:06,200 --> 00:56:10,320
Speaker 1: I would expect that um, a prostitute is tending to

995
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: be a much more on guard and have a lot

996
00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:17,719
Speaker 1: more backups. The first time, they mean, then if they

997
00:56:17,800 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 1: have a rapport with that person and they know he

998
00:56:20,440 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: was harmless missionary and then cried, I mean, you know,

999
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:28,400
Speaker 1: that's the sort of thing. And then you get you

1000
00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:29,880
Speaker 1: get with him a couple of times. He seems like

1001
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 1: a nice die and you're like, you know what, pack

1002
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 1: you go away for a couple hours. Mr Drivers, Fine,

1003
00:56:37,480 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: he's a john, and then suddenly you disappear and the

1004
00:56:41,360 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 1: drivers the driver has no idea because you didn't never

1005
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:46,160
Speaker 1: tell the driver what we were doing. Well, now the

1006
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:49,560
Speaker 1: murdered women had a driver that we know no, but

1007
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,280
Speaker 1: even like, yeah, we don't have that kind of detail,

1008
00:56:52,440 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: but you know, you would assume that maybe it's possible

1009
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: that even the most careful prostitute the first couple of

1010
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:01,360
Speaker 1: times would have somebody that for the first couple of

1011
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:03,040
Speaker 1: times and then they would be used to it. So

1012
00:57:03,120 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 1: it is I think it is probably likely. Yeah. Well,

1013
00:57:05,160 --> 00:57:07,640
Speaker 1: and in the reading to to to address a little

1014
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 1: bit of both of you said, is that some of

1015
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:13,360
Speaker 1: these women, uh, they had they had their pimp and

1016
00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 1: a lot of a lot of times they're out doing

1017
00:57:18,160 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: their job and I'm using air quotes around their job,

1018
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: but they're out there trying to make money and their

1019
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:29,080
Speaker 1: pimp is not with them. The pimp says, go make money,

1020
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,200
Speaker 1: come back and let me see it, and then I

1021
00:57:32,280 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 1: will give you your cod. So they would know, like

1022
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,920
Speaker 1: they're one of these ladies who's one of the burlat

1023
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:41,280
Speaker 1: victims whose um pimp's name I cannot think of at

1024
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: this moment, was like, I had no idea what she

1025
00:57:43,680 --> 00:57:46,320
Speaker 1: was doing. They tracked him down. He was like, I

1026
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:49,160
Speaker 1: had no idea what she's doing. She had to that, believe,

1027
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 1: blie Bleep had to just come back and have the money,

1028
00:57:51,600 --> 00:57:53,400
Speaker 1: or I beat the crap out of her. I mean

1029
00:57:53,480 --> 00:57:56,040
Speaker 1: that that's that's the scenario that a lot of these

1030
00:57:56,120 --> 00:57:59,479
Speaker 1: people are in. So so it's very it's very likely

1031
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: that had previous encounters um And they say, not surprisingly

1032
00:58:03,960 --> 00:58:07,040
Speaker 1: that obviously this guy must have had access to burlap,

1033
00:58:07,640 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: which is funny because if anybody has worked with burlap,

1034
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:14,800
Speaker 1: you would know that it is not nearly as common

1035
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 1: as it once was. It's kind of hard to get

1036
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: a hold of anymore. Yeah, when I was a kid

1037
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: on potatoes came in burlap bags and stuff. But now

1038
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 1: nylon sacks have replaced burlap. You'll tend to see used

1039
00:58:28,080 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 1: to see in like feed like stock for animals, but

1040
00:58:31,800 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: now it's all vinyl and there's bur lap is not

1041
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 1: nearly as common in you keep directing this towards me.

1042
00:58:37,280 --> 00:58:40,280
Speaker 1: My confused look is because my place of work stocks burlap.

1043
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: Like the world is ending, so I mean, like it's

1044
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,200
Speaker 1: for me, you would be, Yeah, there are applications, but

1045
00:58:47,240 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: they're very They're more specialized now and more finite than

1046
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,800
Speaker 1: they used to store, and they've got bur lap. The

1047
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:58,800
Speaker 1: point is it is it is not as common, so

1048
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:01,880
Speaker 1: therefore it's easier to track down, but they haven't figured

1049
00:59:01,920 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: out any any sources. So we've way on on all this.

1050
00:59:06,720 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 1: I want to get to the official So that's part

1051
00:59:08,680 --> 00:59:12,120
Speaker 1: of the profile. The other part of the profile here

1052
00:59:12,320 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: is that, according to either the police of the FBI,

1053
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: I think it's the police, but I'm not positive, our

1054
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:23,919
Speaker 1: killer is a white male shocking uh in his mid

1055
00:59:24,080 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 1: twenties to mid forties. And yeah, because of the fact

1056
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: that he didn't stay on the phone for very long

1057
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 1: with Amanda, which again that was Melissa's little sister. Um,

1058
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: he and avoided all the detection, he must have a

1059
00:59:37,640 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 1: and I'm using quotes here because this is what you

1060
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:43,360
Speaker 1: see it as quoted as detailed or intimate knowledge of

1061
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:47,360
Speaker 1: police techniques. Well that's why thing is that you watch

1062
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 1: Law and Order, but you know c s ide with

1063
00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:54,680
Speaker 1: a side of bones thrown in and you know exactly

1064
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: how all that happens, because Hollywood has been throwing all

1065
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:04,320
Speaker 1: of those police procedures at us for decades. So yeah,

1066
01:00:04,480 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 1: so that's that's just the silliness to me. Um, I mean,

1067
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,680
Speaker 1: any want to be killer could just do that. Um.

1068
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: The other problem that I have with this thing this

1069
01:00:14,000 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: is so that's one of my problems with when they

1070
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 1: say it's you know, it's just detailed intimate knowledge, is

1071
01:00:18,960 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 1: an insider or some related thing. I have problems with it.

1072
01:00:22,000 --> 01:00:23,520
Speaker 1: But the other thing that I have an issue with

1073
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:29,000
Speaker 1: is that each set of victims appears to have possibly

1074
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: been killed in a different manner, So it's like they're

1075
01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,520
Speaker 1: at least three killers at work here. I would say, well,

1076
01:00:33,560 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: there's a victims, we know they're strangled. The dismembered victims.

1077
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: We don't know how they were killed exactly, but they

1078
01:00:41,640 --> 01:00:49,560
Speaker 1: were dismembered, stabbed or something. Well, somebody had taken the

1079
01:00:49,680 --> 01:00:52,240
Speaker 1: time to make the cause of death was probably something different,

1080
01:00:52,320 --> 01:00:55,880
Speaker 1: and likely a sharp device was involved to break the

1081
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: body apart into pieces to be dumped in place. I

1082
01:00:59,000 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 1: guess my real problem with this, sorry, do you want

1083
01:01:01,520 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 1: to finish all? My really big problem with this is that, like,

1084
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: if this is the same serial killer, they are de escalating, right,

1085
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:14,960
Speaker 1: They're changing there, They're changing their there also de escalating

1086
01:01:15,040 --> 01:01:19,080
Speaker 1: right from mutilating and chopping, the mutilating and chopping a

1087
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: body up to simply wrapping it in burlap and burying

1088
01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,240
Speaker 1: it in the shallow, almost in a reverent manner, Compared

1089
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 1: to the violence of probably there's some like some psychologists

1090
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:33,200
Speaker 1: could probably say like they're coming to terms with the

1091
01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:36,000
Speaker 1: childhood trauma that they had been facing when they write

1092
01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 1: that they were like dismembering their mother figure and now

1093
01:01:38,640 --> 01:01:41,240
Speaker 1: they're coming to terms with it, and so they're burying

1094
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 1: her in a shroud. Right, Okay, fine, I'm sure something.

1095
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 1: But in my in our you know, years of being

1096
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:55,720
Speaker 1: armchair experts, they don't, they don't de escalate, and you

1097
01:01:55,800 --> 01:02:01,320
Speaker 1: don't go from totally mutilating and dismembering women and toddlers

1098
01:02:02,280 --> 01:02:05,560
Speaker 1: to wrapping women respectiually in trous and burying them all

1099
01:02:05,760 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: in a shallow grave. But you just don't do that.

1100
01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 1: It doesn't happen. So that's my big problem with that. Yeah,

1101
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:13,760
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's it is, it's it's such a

1102
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 1: wild swing. Now now I will admit before because somebody

1103
01:02:17,320 --> 01:02:19,640
Speaker 1: I know was gonna say, you know, wait, wait, wait,

1104
01:02:20,400 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 1: serial killers have been known to change their disposal methods different. Well,

1105
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:28,760
Speaker 1: but there's it's it's always situational. Like I was talking

1106
01:02:28,920 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: about who's Gaysy the clown killer. You know, he used

1107
01:02:32,440 --> 01:02:34,439
Speaker 1: to bury people under his house, but he did also

1108
01:02:34,520 --> 01:02:36,120
Speaker 1: throw a couple of people in the river. But that

1109
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:39,919
Speaker 1: was situational. It was it was you know, the circumstances

1110
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:41,760
Speaker 1: were what they word. It wasn't as if he just went,

1111
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: you know, there's just too many people under my house.

1112
01:02:45,400 --> 01:02:47,240
Speaker 1: I'm gonna start putting him in the river. No, he

1113
01:02:47,280 --> 01:02:50,400
Speaker 1: didn't do that at all. So circumstances, I mean, I

1114
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:56,080
Speaker 1: can't see actually burying the bodies under my house any

1115
01:02:56,120 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: of these things. The reason I don't like the single

1116
01:03:00,040 --> 01:03:02,440
Speaker 1: killer theory at all, well, if you look at if

1117
01:03:02,440 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 1: you look at the aerials of the island alone, of

1118
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,920
Speaker 1: the islands out there, it's got three causeways connecting it

1119
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,960
Speaker 1: to Long Island, and also there's a causeway that goes

1120
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 1: to Fire Island that branches off and also goes to

1121
01:03:16,800 --> 01:03:19,480
Speaker 1: Oak Island. So in other words, it's the most easily

1122
01:03:19,520 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 1: accessible of any of those islands. But it's still remote

1123
01:03:22,240 --> 01:03:24,640
Speaker 1: and like you say, long straight level roads, you can

1124
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:28,160
Speaker 1: see somebody coming from miles away, and so it's an

1125
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 1: ideal place to get rid of bodies. So I'm not

1126
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:33,360
Speaker 1: surprised that a bunch of different people dumped their bodies

1127
01:03:33,400 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 1: out there. Of course they did. This may be like

1128
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:39,280
Speaker 1: super cynical of me, but I'm sure there's some network

1129
01:03:39,360 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: of serial killers out there, right, There's got to be

1130
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:44,680
Speaker 1: some network of like dudes who like to kill people.

1131
01:03:45,320 --> 01:03:50,600
Speaker 1: So okay, we save that for I think the second

1132
01:03:50,840 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 1: or second to last or last theory. We're going to

1133
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 1: move into the next one, which Joe has obviously chosen

1134
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: as his favorite, which is the several unconnected serial killers

1135
01:04:02,160 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 1: or unconnected killers just killers. Indeed, guess some of these

1136
01:04:05,160 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 1: look kind of look like one offs, like the skeleton

1137
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:10,320
Speaker 1: found in a bag, you know, it's it seems like

1138
01:04:10,400 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 1: a one off. The two torsos in Manorville seem kind

1139
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 1: of like a weird, isolated set, like there's there's there's

1140
01:04:18,120 --> 01:04:20,600
Speaker 1: not a whole other than the fact that these ladies

1141
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 1: were ladies of the night and may or may not

1142
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 1: have been heavy drug users at the time. And I

1143
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:30,919
Speaker 1: say may or may not because some of them were.

1144
01:04:31,320 --> 01:04:33,480
Speaker 1: We do know some, but that that's not that doesn't

1145
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:37,280
Speaker 1: isn't any consequence. But other than that is the sort

1146
01:04:37,360 --> 01:04:41,919
Speaker 1: of semi commonality between them. Egg. Yeah, But the point

1147
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: is is that, yeah, there's there's not a whole lot

1148
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 1: that sinks them up. So it's very easy to say, well,

1149
01:04:47,120 --> 01:04:49,560
Speaker 1: let's just say it's serial killers. Okay, let's just let's

1150
01:04:49,640 --> 01:04:53,439
Speaker 1: just ignore the random kill and say it's a serial killer.

1151
01:04:53,640 --> 01:04:55,400
Speaker 1: Then it's very easy to say that this is two

1152
01:04:55,600 --> 01:04:57,840
Speaker 1: or three who just happened to go. Hey, you know,

1153
01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:01,880
Speaker 1: I drove down that road and I figured out this

1154
01:05:02,000 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: place to pull off, and nobody's gonna see. Mean I

1155
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:05,600
Speaker 1: can I can just chuck a body. Yeah, that's what

1156
01:05:05,680 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: I do. Actually, by the way, there for a while

1157
01:05:07,720 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 1: I had a great place to dumb bodies. Not too more,

1158
01:05:10,400 --> 01:05:12,960
Speaker 1: but stop it. We'll talk about yourself in trouble. But

1159
01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:15,280
Speaker 1: you know, the other thing is is that because of

1160
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:19,960
Speaker 1: the proximity to docks and stuff. I mean, it's it's

1161
01:05:20,120 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 1: makes itself, it lends itself to it kind of a

1162
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,320
Speaker 1: Dexter scenario where there could be somebody who's killing even

1163
01:05:25,400 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 1: more but occasionally can't get to the boat and so

1164
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 1: has to dump a body because obviously, if you haven't

1165
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 1: seen Dexter spoiler art, uh, he chopped up bodies and

1166
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:36,480
Speaker 1: dumped him in the ocean. So but it's it's that

1167
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,920
Speaker 1: kind of thing. Okay, So we're gonna move on to

1168
01:05:41,240 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 1: the next theory. Uh. The next theory is that the

1169
01:05:45,440 --> 01:05:49,000
Speaker 1: culprit is Dr Peter Hackett. If you remember when we

1170
01:05:49,080 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: were talking about Shannon, he's the guy that's supposedly Shannon

1171
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 1: and Joe Brewer went whose house they went to to

1172
01:05:56,160 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: get more drugs? He Um, yeah, he is, Uh, he's

1173
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,520
Speaker 1: at least in my mind. Um, from what I've read

1174
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: about him, the guy is a braggart. He talks a lot,

1175
01:06:08,840 --> 01:06:11,000
Speaker 1: and he likes to be the center of attention, and

1176
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 1: he has a tendency to to kind of overstate his

1177
01:06:14,600 --> 01:06:19,280
Speaker 1: involvement in things and his responsibilities. Um, and we'll get

1178
01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: we're gonna link this back in, but let me just

1179
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:25,840
Speaker 1: explain this guy here. Hackett was an emergency response specialist

1180
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:29,400
Speaker 1: and he was involved in some pretty big operations. But

1181
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 1: like I said, he kind of he overstated his roles

1182
01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:36,600
Speaker 1: and responsibilities and badly so. He did it to the

1183
01:06:36,720 --> 01:06:41,840
Speaker 1: media in six um with the t w A eight

1184
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:44,040
Speaker 1: hundred flight, which got him into a lot of hot

1185
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: water with his employers. Here's a question. He is actually

1186
01:06:47,640 --> 01:06:52,800
Speaker 1: a doctor. He is he is. He is a doctor,

1187
01:06:53,280 --> 01:06:57,320
Speaker 1: and he is not like you know, a general practitioner

1188
01:06:57,600 --> 01:07:00,520
Speaker 1: or a surgeon or anything like that. He his doctor.

1189
01:07:00,640 --> 01:07:04,680
Speaker 1: But he went into emergency medical situations. He really went

1190
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:09,320
Speaker 1: into more of like a administrative kind of situation. So

1191
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:12,040
Speaker 1: he was never operating on people who's not He was

1192
01:07:12,080 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 1: not for a very long time out in the field.

1193
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 1: And that's because of the fact that you know Hackett,

1194
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:22,520
Speaker 1: as we'll talk about shortly, he's got um a handicap

1195
01:07:22,880 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: for for his mobility for being out in the field.

1196
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:28,840
Speaker 1: And so that's why I think that he though he

1197
01:07:29,040 --> 01:07:31,040
Speaker 1: is a doctor, he never went out and did it

1198
01:07:31,080 --> 01:07:33,680
Speaker 1: in that fashion. So as he had trouble fine nigger

1199
01:07:33,800 --> 01:07:37,320
Speaker 1: keeping employments. Since this whole thing became a thing, turns

1200
01:07:37,320 --> 01:07:40,479
Speaker 1: out he was pretty close to retirement, so I didn't

1201
01:07:40,520 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 1: really bother him. I'm pretty sure that at this point

1202
01:07:43,200 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: he basically retired because he moved to Florida. I think

1203
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:51,400
Speaker 1: I think he moved out of the Oak, the community

1204
01:07:51,440 --> 01:07:53,360
Speaker 1: that he lived in, and then moved to Florida. I

1205
01:07:53,520 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: want to say it was in two thousand and twelve

1206
01:07:56,360 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: or two thousand and thirteen, so which you know, moved Florida, retire,

1207
01:08:00,040 --> 01:08:03,520
Speaker 1: so it didn't really hurt him. So this, uh, this

1208
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 1: is actually a thing. Though, are people out there that

1209
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:10,360
Speaker 1: really believed that Peter Hacker Hackett Peter Hackett. Oh, there

1210
01:08:10,440 --> 01:08:16,280
Speaker 1: are people who are so convinced that he is responsible. Um,

1211
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:18,880
Speaker 1: So here's the thing, and he did some really stupid stuff,

1212
01:08:18,960 --> 01:08:23,160
Speaker 1: but when when it came to Shannon, because she's obviously

1213
01:08:23,240 --> 01:08:25,360
Speaker 1: our catalyst, and this is how he's brought into the

1214
01:08:25,400 --> 01:08:31,000
Speaker 1: stories to supposed drug exchange. Well, also, he apparently called

1215
01:08:31,240 --> 01:08:35,680
Speaker 1: Shannon's mother and the morning after she had had run

1216
01:08:35,760 --> 01:08:40,160
Speaker 1: away and said that he ran a rehab for wayward

1217
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: girls out of his home and that he had taken

1218
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,360
Speaker 1: care of her and she had left the day after

1219
01:08:45,880 --> 01:08:49,120
Speaker 1: she disappeared and she should be home. Yeah. The problem

1220
01:08:49,200 --> 01:08:51,040
Speaker 1: is that when he was pressed about this call, he

1221
01:08:51,160 --> 01:08:54,599
Speaker 1: said he never made the call, though there are phone

1222
01:08:54,680 --> 01:08:59,360
Speaker 1: records between Hackett and Mary, and then when the records

1223
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:03,639
Speaker 1: were hold up and and shown, then he kept changing

1224
01:09:03,800 --> 01:09:08,439
Speaker 1: his story slash recollection of why they talked on the phone. Okay,

1225
01:09:08,760 --> 01:09:14,240
Speaker 1: here's a question. Was this before they found out the

1226
01:09:14,479 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 1: police found out the whole story that she was, you know,

1227
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 1: at the house for the prostitution and all that stuff,

1228
01:09:19,960 --> 01:09:22,720
Speaker 1: or was it after it would have been after it

1229
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:24,479
Speaker 1: would have been after the police found out about it

1230
01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 1: last time, I mean Brewer, as soon as the cops

1231
01:09:27,080 --> 01:09:29,680
Speaker 1: showed up, you know, Mary, Mary called because Okay, what

1232
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:34,040
Speaker 1: happens is Shannon disappears and she doesn't come home that morning,

1233
01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 1: and I believe it's later the after later in the day.

1234
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 1: Uh so she just she are nine one. One call

1235
01:09:40,960 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 1: was at four fifty am. Later that very same day,

1236
01:09:45,280 --> 01:09:47,560
Speaker 1: her boyfriend Alex the guy said she was living with.

1237
01:09:48,320 --> 01:09:51,479
Speaker 1: He calls Pack to find out what's going on, and

1238
01:09:51,560 --> 01:09:53,720
Speaker 1: then that triggers the whole chain of events for the

1239
01:09:53,760 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 1: police to get involved. Okay, I guess because my question

1240
01:09:57,080 --> 01:09:59,639
Speaker 1: is is like if you know if, but I don't

1241
01:09:59,640 --> 01:10:02,840
Speaker 1: know that police were searching for her right away. In

1242
01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:05,920
Speaker 1: other words, they didn't search that very you know, right,

1243
01:10:06,240 --> 01:10:08,519
Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I guess it could have been

1244
01:10:08,640 --> 01:10:12,320
Speaker 1: a you know, Hackett is a friend of God. What's

1245
01:10:12,360 --> 01:10:16,920
Speaker 1: his name, Brewer, Brewer, you know, and Brewer says she disappeared,

1246
01:10:17,200 --> 01:10:20,680
Speaker 1: like Pack said she disappeared, and you know, Hackets like,

1247
01:10:21,280 --> 01:10:24,320
Speaker 1: I'm sure she's fine, I'll call her parents. Here's the thing,

1248
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:29,000
Speaker 1: Hackett doesn't know Shannon. How the hell did he get

1249
01:10:29,120 --> 01:10:33,320
Speaker 1: her mother's phone number? That's that's that's why there's so

1250
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:37,120
Speaker 1: much suspicion on him, is it's the day after she's disappeared,

1251
01:10:37,439 --> 01:10:41,840
Speaker 1: and he's calling her mother. Well, but I guess for

1252
01:10:41,960 --> 01:10:45,519
Speaker 1: me it's it's not so weird, right, Alex calls pack

1253
01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:48,000
Speaker 1: right and packs like crap, Like we don't know where

1254
01:10:48,000 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 1: she is, she didn't come home. Okay, we should do

1255
01:10:50,520 --> 01:10:54,640
Speaker 1: some damage control here, Um, Brewer, can you know you can't? Um?

1256
01:10:54,760 --> 01:10:57,000
Speaker 1: Who do we know that can corroborate that she was

1257
01:10:57,040 --> 01:11:00,879
Speaker 1: a lot? Okay? Hackett you guys want Hacketts? Okay, Alex,

1258
01:11:01,160 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 1: what how can we get hold? Yeah? I don't think

1259
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:07,240
Speaker 1: it's all that suspicious, but but people, but I'm saying

1260
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:09,160
Speaker 1: is that people say, well, how the hell did he

1261
01:11:09,200 --> 01:11:12,840
Speaker 1: get that? People really find him suspicious and the fact

1262
01:11:12,880 --> 01:11:17,000
Speaker 1: that he has access to prescription drugs, People say, well,

1263
01:11:17,040 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 1: look at this. He has supposedly made statements or offers

1264
01:11:23,439 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 1: to people that he could get them what they needed

1265
01:11:26,000 --> 01:11:29,479
Speaker 1: and all they needed do was asked. And I'll be

1266
01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:32,880
Speaker 1: honest with you, I'm fifty fifty on whether that's real

1267
01:11:33,120 --> 01:11:35,919
Speaker 1: or not, because, like I said, he mean he's a murderer.

1268
01:11:36,479 --> 01:11:39,240
Speaker 1: You know it doesn't I mean, you know, it does

1269
01:11:39,320 --> 01:11:41,439
Speaker 1: not mean he's a murderer. But people also say, well,

1270
01:11:41,880 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 1: he maybe he dumped her behind his house. Because if

1271
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:48,560
Speaker 1: you use the criteria that we talked about in the

1272
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,439
Speaker 1: first theory. He lives on the island, so he would

1273
01:11:51,520 --> 01:11:53,920
Speaker 1: know the island very well. And obviously he has a

1274
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 1: vehicle because he drives to and from every day white

1275
01:11:56,840 --> 01:11:58,840
Speaker 1: male in his forties. He is a white male that

1276
01:11:59,000 --> 01:12:02,040
Speaker 1: is in his at the time late fifties or really sixties,

1277
01:12:02,200 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 1: so he's outside of the range there. Um. The marsh

1278
01:12:06,120 --> 01:12:10,120
Speaker 1: or the swamp that Shannon's body was found in, uh,

1279
01:12:10,280 --> 01:12:13,280
Speaker 1: it flows past the rear of his home and then

1280
01:12:13,360 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 1: it flows to It does flow to where she was found,

1281
01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:21,120
Speaker 1: but to give credit, everybody that lives on that side

1282
01:12:21,160 --> 01:12:25,120
Speaker 1: of the street, the marsh flows by their houses. So

1283
01:12:25,320 --> 01:12:28,200
Speaker 1: that's that's not iron clad, but there's there's a rule

1284
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:30,559
Speaker 1: among serial killers, which is you don't crap in your

1285
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 1: own nest. That's true, We're gonna die at the end

1286
01:12:36,800 --> 01:12:40,439
Speaker 1: of this episode. This is never going to reach air. Um.

1287
01:12:40,840 --> 01:12:43,840
Speaker 1: The problem with saying that that Hackett is responsible for,

1288
01:12:44,720 --> 01:12:48,400
Speaker 1: if anything, at least for shin In, if not all

1289
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:50,920
Speaker 1: of these murders is, you know who would have to

1290
01:12:51,040 --> 01:12:56,240
Speaker 1: be in cahoots with him, his wife, because she would

1291
01:12:56,360 --> 01:12:59,519
Speaker 1: know if he's you know, going out at weird hours

1292
01:12:59,600 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 1: of the nuns and then coming home covered in dirt

1293
01:13:02,720 --> 01:13:06,080
Speaker 1: from digging a shallow gray It was just that doing

1294
01:13:06,080 --> 01:13:10,760
Speaker 1: a little midnight gardening. Wife, you come home late. Yeah,

1295
01:13:10,920 --> 01:13:14,720
Speaker 1: does wake up the time most of the time. But

1296
01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,280
Speaker 1: you know what else, if I'm digging, you know what happens,

1297
01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:20,640
Speaker 1: dirt all over me. The other problem is is that

1298
01:13:20,760 --> 01:13:22,760
Speaker 1: for him, this is a sandy area for him to

1299
01:13:22,800 --> 01:13:25,000
Speaker 1: be able to navigate, to drag a body out and

1300
01:13:25,040 --> 01:13:28,519
Speaker 1: then dig a ditch. The problem that I have is

1301
01:13:28,760 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: that Hackett was he stopped to help somebody many many

1302
01:13:34,200 --> 01:13:36,000
Speaker 1: years ago. He stopped to help somebody who was in

1303
01:13:36,040 --> 01:13:39,200
Speaker 1: a car accident. He himself was then hit by another

1304
01:13:39,360 --> 01:13:45,120
Speaker 1: motorist and he lost one of his legs. He yeah,

1305
01:13:45,120 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 1: he only has one like he has prosthetic and he

1306
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:49,000
Speaker 1: gets around on it well enough that a lot of

1307
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: people don't know unless they see him in shure that

1308
01:13:51,160 --> 01:13:54,840
Speaker 1: he's got a prosthetic. But still that doesn't make navigating

1309
01:13:55,240 --> 01:13:58,880
Speaker 1: you know that kind of terrain. Is he to give

1310
01:13:58,960 --> 01:14:02,320
Speaker 1: you some pushback? His wife had to have known. I mean,

1311
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:06,240
Speaker 1: I presume that they have big, nice houses in this area, right,

1312
01:14:06,320 --> 01:14:08,479
Speaker 1: It's not like your house. I've been to your house.

1313
01:14:08,520 --> 01:14:12,439
Speaker 1: It's small thanks, But yes, I mean, and it's it's fine. Actually,

1314
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:15,080
Speaker 1: but I've been on street view in these little towns

1315
01:14:15,160 --> 01:14:21,200
Speaker 1: and they're actually not enormous mansions. We're not twice the

1316
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:24,600
Speaker 1: size of Steve's house, even of your house. Not an

1317
01:14:24,720 --> 01:14:27,360
Speaker 1: enormous mansion, but a big enough house that you could

1318
01:14:27,400 --> 01:14:30,880
Speaker 1: come in. There's two full bathrooms. Right. You come in,

1319
01:14:31,280 --> 01:14:33,640
Speaker 1: you shower, you clean off, you throw your wash in

1320
01:14:33,720 --> 01:14:37,080
Speaker 1: the laundry. You fall asleep on the couch with the

1321
01:14:37,160 --> 01:14:40,559
Speaker 1: football game on, and your wife comes down and says, oh,

1322
01:14:40,760 --> 01:14:42,800
Speaker 1: did you fall asleep in front of the TV again?

1323
01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 1: And you say, yeah, I guess I must have the

1324
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,519
Speaker 1: reason that I say his wife had to know at

1325
01:14:50,600 --> 01:14:54,519
Speaker 1: least with Shannon, as if indeed she came over, he

1326
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 1: and and this is this is what she came over

1327
01:14:57,080 --> 01:14:58,840
Speaker 1: probably well, no, this is this is for the people

1328
01:14:58,880 --> 01:15:01,360
Speaker 1: who say that he older and he must have dumped

1329
01:15:01,400 --> 01:15:04,280
Speaker 1: her behind his house in the marsh that then carried

1330
01:15:04,320 --> 01:15:06,760
Speaker 1: her away. Is that she had to have been in

1331
01:15:06,920 --> 01:15:09,880
Speaker 1: his house for some period of time, at which point,

1332
01:15:09,920 --> 01:15:13,240
Speaker 1: if she was as panicked as everybody says she was,

1333
01:15:13,600 --> 01:15:16,679
Speaker 1: she would have been screaming and his wife would could

1334
01:15:16,800 --> 01:15:19,920
Speaker 1: not have slept and ignored that. Okay, here's the next question.

1335
01:15:20,000 --> 01:15:22,280
Speaker 1: I have lots of questions on this, But how do

1336
01:15:22,320 --> 01:15:26,120
Speaker 1: you know the wife was home? Was? Okay? Okay, how

1337
01:15:26,200 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 1: do you know the wife wasn't on ambien or xan

1338
01:15:29,439 --> 01:15:32,280
Speaker 1: x or any of the other None of that was.

1339
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:35,320
Speaker 1: That's never specified, so I can't say, right, So, I

1340
01:15:35,360 --> 01:15:38,600
Speaker 1: mean that's and that's a thing. Here's my problem. Have

1341
01:15:38,840 --> 01:15:41,120
Speaker 1: to go back. Well, no, and the thing with Hackett,

1342
01:15:41,280 --> 01:15:43,439
Speaker 1: the guy is subtle as a t rex. I mean,

1343
01:15:43,560 --> 01:15:48,439
Speaker 1: he didn't know me. He doesn't have to wear with all.

1344
01:15:49,920 --> 01:15:53,120
Speaker 1: I think your arguments against all, well, he's he's he's

1345
01:15:53,240 --> 01:15:55,960
Speaker 1: made he's made enemies. I mean, there's all kinds of

1346
01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:59,120
Speaker 1: have you ever gone have you ever seen those people

1347
01:15:59,160 --> 01:16:02,400
Speaker 1: who are in a moners association in there? They are

1348
01:16:02,560 --> 01:16:06,799
Speaker 1: on the board and there's all kinds of political crap

1349
01:16:06,960 --> 01:16:10,880
Speaker 1: going on back and forth. He was, he was involved

1350
01:16:10,920 --> 01:16:14,800
Speaker 1: in that for years in this community, and he's made

1351
01:16:14,800 --> 01:16:17,600
Speaker 1: a lot of enemies. And while I don't use that

1352
01:16:17,720 --> 01:16:20,479
Speaker 1: as a reason to excuse him, I use that as

1353
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:24,160
Speaker 1: a reason to think that people just say that guy's

1354
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:28,000
Speaker 1: inn a whole and it's his fault. Yeah. The thing

1355
01:16:28,040 --> 01:16:31,280
Speaker 1: about it is, too is that there's not there's not

1356
01:16:31,360 --> 01:16:34,400
Speaker 1: a shred of evidence that even that he murdered Shannon. Yeah,

1357
01:16:34,479 --> 01:16:36,280
Speaker 1: there really is not a shred of evidence and much

1358
01:16:36,360 --> 01:16:39,240
Speaker 1: left and Shannon, in my in my opinion, is completely

1359
01:16:39,280 --> 01:16:43,600
Speaker 1: unconnected to the rest of the body. Honest, there's not

1360
01:16:43,680 --> 01:16:47,639
Speaker 1: even a shred of evidence that he even really meant

1361
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:49,800
Speaker 1: her he met her. Yeah, there's not much. There's not

1362
01:16:49,920 --> 01:16:52,360
Speaker 1: that much evidence of that either. Yeah, I mean, actually

1363
01:16:52,760 --> 01:16:54,800
Speaker 1: it's so weak. I will say that there's a little

1364
01:16:54,840 --> 01:16:57,640
Speaker 1: bit of evidence because he himself isn't kind of if

1365
01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:00,040
Speaker 1: you would call this incriminating evidence that he's sort of

1366
01:17:00,080 --> 01:17:03,240
Speaker 1: incriminated himself a little bit by saying by making the

1367
01:17:03,280 --> 01:17:06,160
Speaker 1: phone call to it. That's the only the only bit

1368
01:17:06,240 --> 01:17:08,400
Speaker 1: of evidence is that, and and that could be evidence

1369
01:17:08,439 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 1: for like Brewers said, Brewers said that they had met

1370
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:16,280
Speaker 1: and Hackett and hey, yeah, but you know, but even

1371
01:17:16,400 --> 01:17:18,920
Speaker 1: so what you know, I mean, yeah, so he sold

1372
01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:23,080
Speaker 1: them drugs. Yeah, Okay, let's let's move forward. Yeah, because

1373
01:17:23,080 --> 01:17:24,920
Speaker 1: we're gonna move on to the who you just talked about,

1374
01:17:24,960 --> 01:17:28,519
Speaker 1: which is Brewer, which people say Brewer is responsible. Also

1375
01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:31,080
Speaker 1: the dumbest thing I ever, because there is absolutely no

1376
01:17:31,320 --> 01:17:33,960
Speaker 1: evidence other than the fact that Shannon came to his house,

1377
01:17:34,280 --> 01:17:38,120
Speaker 1: didn't potentially did a bunch of drugs, possibly had sex

1378
01:17:38,200 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 1: with him, and then ran from his house in a

1379
01:17:41,800 --> 01:17:45,479
Speaker 1: possibly drug induced panic. Possibly not, but she left his

1380
01:17:45,560 --> 01:17:49,000
Speaker 1: house and that was But there's nothing to connect him

1381
01:17:49,200 --> 01:17:52,679
Speaker 1: to all the other murders. Even if he did somehow

1382
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:56,280
Speaker 1: kill Shannon, he have he probably not a serial killer.

1383
01:17:56,960 --> 01:18:00,200
Speaker 1: That would have been like a super bungled case. Well, Ben,

1384
01:18:00,280 --> 01:18:02,639
Speaker 1: he would have had acts actually a very positive incentive

1385
01:18:02,680 --> 01:18:05,120
Speaker 1: to not let her run off into the night, because

1386
01:18:05,200 --> 01:18:07,040
Speaker 1: if he had actually stashed all these bodies would have

1387
01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:09,920
Speaker 1: all around near Yeah, he wouldn't have called past. He

1388
01:18:09,920 --> 01:18:11,800
Speaker 1: also wouldn't have just turned around and walked back into

1389
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:14,800
Speaker 1: his own day house. Also, he also wouldn't have led

1390
01:18:14,840 --> 01:18:16,439
Speaker 1: her out of the house to begin with, because her

1391
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:18,800
Speaker 1: running off sparked this whole thing, you know. And if

1392
01:18:18,800 --> 01:18:21,840
Speaker 1: he had had bodies stashed all around his house, I mean,

1393
01:18:21,920 --> 01:18:24,880
Speaker 1: not not near his house, but in the area, yeah,

1394
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:28,360
Speaker 1: obviously would have just killed her. So yeah, so why

1395
01:18:28,400 --> 01:18:30,400
Speaker 1: not treat her like all the others? So how many,

1396
01:18:30,479 --> 01:18:33,080
Speaker 1: how many? How strong I can tend to his brewer

1397
01:18:33,160 --> 01:18:35,439
Speaker 1: out there on the internet. Oh, he's he's for the

1398
01:18:35,520 --> 01:18:40,040
Speaker 1: most part completely disregarded. Okay, you will see the occasional

1399
01:18:40,600 --> 01:18:42,640
Speaker 1: it's got to be Brewer because he's he's you know,

1400
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:45,000
Speaker 1: this thing happened with Shannon, But for the most part,

1401
01:18:45,600 --> 01:18:48,360
Speaker 1: nobody even takes it as a serious theory. No, why

1402
01:18:48,400 --> 01:18:52,679
Speaker 1: would you. So let's let's move to my next theory.

1403
01:18:53,439 --> 01:18:56,519
Speaker 1: This is one that I we kind of talked about

1404
01:18:56,600 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 1: this a little bit or insinuated this a little bit

1405
01:18:59,760 --> 01:19:02,840
Speaker 1: when it comes to the multiple serial killers. But I'm

1406
01:19:02,840 --> 01:19:05,680
Speaker 1: not even gonna say this is multiple serial killers. This

1407
01:19:05,880 --> 01:19:09,400
Speaker 1: theory is a dumping grounds for a cleaner. If you

1408
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:15,120
Speaker 1: have ever watched Reservoir Dogs, remember Harvey Kite tells now

1409
01:19:15,200 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 1: you're you're taking pulp fiction. Pulp fiction. You're right, I'm

1410
01:19:18,560 --> 01:19:20,280
Speaker 1: sorry it is. It's pulp fiction. Do you know what

1411
01:19:20,439 --> 01:19:24,439
Speaker 1: I think of always is um boondoc saints. Yeah. So

1412
01:19:24,840 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 1: you got the cleaner, the guy who comes in, You've

1413
01:19:26,520 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 1: got a bunch of bodies, and he gets rid of them. Okay, well,

1414
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:31,760
Speaker 1: let's not even take it to that fun Hollywood level.

1415
01:19:31,800 --> 01:19:35,519
Speaker 1: But let's just say there's somebody who needs who you know,

1416
01:19:35,640 --> 01:19:38,479
Speaker 1: he's just kind of hey, um, so I don't know

1417
01:19:38,520 --> 01:19:41,519
Speaker 1: what to do. I killed this, this this hooker, Um,

1418
01:19:41,680 --> 01:19:43,720
Speaker 1: what do I do? And he's like, give me a

1419
01:19:43,800 --> 01:19:45,560
Speaker 1: thousand bucks and I'll take care of it. And he

1420
01:19:45,680 --> 01:19:49,640
Speaker 1: just starts sprinkling bodies all over the area. And it's like, okay, well,

1421
01:19:49,680 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 1: this one spot, I always put him in bur laugh

1422
01:19:52,040 --> 01:19:55,400
Speaker 1: this place. I hack them up so that connected murders

1423
01:19:55,680 --> 01:20:00,200
Speaker 1: become disconnected or disconnected murders appear to be connected. I mean,

1424
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:03,800
Speaker 1: I know that I am reaching on this, but it's like,

1425
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:06,720
Speaker 1: why can't it be that is to anything else? I

1426
01:20:06,920 --> 01:20:09,559
Speaker 1: like it, except for that it takes a certain kind

1427
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 1: of um psychopath, it messed up human being to hack

1428
01:20:16,200 --> 01:20:19,760
Speaker 1: bodies up and disperse those parts. It could be you know,

1429
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:22,120
Speaker 1: it could be a combo of of a cleaner and

1430
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:26,840
Speaker 1: a serial killer. Yeah again, I mean I think, yeah, okay,

1431
01:20:26,920 --> 01:20:29,320
Speaker 1: these people are murder strangled and they're wrapped in burlap.

1432
01:20:29,479 --> 01:20:32,280
Speaker 1: But I just keep thinking, like, that's such such an

1433
01:20:32,320 --> 01:20:35,680
Speaker 1: attention to details. It's a reverent way to deal with

1434
01:20:35,840 --> 01:20:38,760
Speaker 1: that end. I'm not even sure. I'm not sure there

1435
01:20:38,840 --> 01:20:42,320
Speaker 1: was any reverence there, seriously, more so than hacking up

1436
01:20:42,360 --> 01:20:45,439
Speaker 1: their bodies happing it in like five different places. Sure,

1437
01:20:45,640 --> 01:20:48,400
Speaker 1: you know, I mean at least there's some care taken

1438
01:20:48,479 --> 01:20:52,719
Speaker 1: to this body. Um. I mean I'm going to disagree

1439
01:20:52,720 --> 01:20:56,040
Speaker 1: a little bit. I think that you're assigning care to something,

1440
01:20:56,120 --> 01:20:59,439
Speaker 1: which is I don't want to get gooey matter in

1441
01:20:59,479 --> 01:21:02,519
Speaker 1: the back of why trunk as simple as that. That, Yeah,

1442
01:21:02,680 --> 01:21:05,120
Speaker 1: Or you know, they were out of blue tarps at

1443
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:08,519
Speaker 1: the Ace Hardware, so I got burlap wrap instead. I

1444
01:21:08,560 --> 01:21:11,120
Speaker 1: mean there's also such a thing as like serial killers

1445
01:21:11,200 --> 01:21:14,240
Speaker 1: who like go into this like blind rage and kill

1446
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 1: and then basically like come to afterwards, right and then

1447
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:21,280
Speaker 1: realize like, oh god, I just did something awful. I

1448
01:21:21,320 --> 01:21:23,400
Speaker 1: got a body I gotta get rid of now, and

1449
01:21:23,479 --> 01:21:26,120
Speaker 1: they just don't know what to do or how to

1450
01:21:26,200 --> 01:21:27,479
Speaker 1: deal with it, so they wrap it up so they

1451
01:21:27,520 --> 01:21:29,439
Speaker 1: don't have to look at it. Yeah, it's you see

1452
01:21:29,439 --> 01:21:32,280
Speaker 1: this in movies. Oh god, it happened again. Yeah, what

1453
01:21:32,360 --> 01:21:35,680
Speaker 1: do I do? I've got to dispose? Yeah, yeah, absolutely so.

1454
01:21:36,080 --> 01:21:38,960
Speaker 1: I mean it could be any of that. The last

1455
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:42,080
Speaker 1: theory that we have here is I don't know how

1456
01:21:42,160 --> 01:21:45,519
Speaker 1: to describe this one except I see it listed in

1457
01:21:45,800 --> 01:21:49,599
Speaker 1: some places and I refer to it as the party dudes,

1458
01:21:50,400 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 1: which is, did either of you see that movie? Um,

1459
01:21:53,439 --> 01:21:58,320
Speaker 1: Very bad Things Okay, it's a jereedy. It's a movie

1460
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:02,480
Speaker 1: with Jeremy Piven in it, and he's with a prostitute

1461
01:22:02,560 --> 01:22:07,799
Speaker 1: and she accidentally dies while they're copulating, and it starts

1462
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:10,559
Speaker 1: this chain of things. But it's like, you know, oh,

1463
01:22:10,680 --> 01:22:13,360
Speaker 1: well I hired a prostitute and she happened to die.

1464
01:22:13,800 --> 01:22:16,080
Speaker 1: We've got to get rid of the body. Well, this

1465
01:22:16,560 --> 01:22:20,280
Speaker 1: weirdly ties into that because this theory says that, well,

1466
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:23,160
Speaker 1: there's these guys and they use the island and they

1467
01:22:23,240 --> 01:22:27,480
Speaker 1: like to party, and they invite prostitutes over, and occasionally

1468
01:22:27,520 --> 01:22:30,640
Speaker 1: a prostitute dies and we gotta handle it. So we

1469
01:22:30,800 --> 01:22:33,400
Speaker 1: just you know, one of us is responsible for getting

1470
01:22:33,479 --> 01:22:35,920
Speaker 1: rid of them. And I mean I know you had

1471
01:22:36,360 --> 01:22:38,000
Speaker 1: you had something that I told you to hold off,

1472
01:22:38,040 --> 01:22:41,080
Speaker 1: which is sort of in this vein kind of. I mean,

1473
01:22:41,120 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 1: I guess I I would more assign it to like

1474
01:22:45,080 --> 01:22:48,880
Speaker 1: multiple serial killers, but that like there's a chryslist, right,

1475
01:22:49,240 --> 01:22:51,840
Speaker 1: or like a deep website of like, oh crap, I

1476
01:22:51,920 --> 01:22:54,560
Speaker 1: gotta tore into this because like we're to dump a

1477
01:22:54,640 --> 01:22:58,960
Speaker 1: body on Oak Island, right. I mean, I'm sure that

1478
01:22:59,080 --> 01:23:01,240
Speaker 1: that exists in this world where you could just google

1479
01:23:01,360 --> 01:23:05,280
Speaker 1: something of like oops, I killed someone. But I think

1480
01:23:05,320 --> 01:23:08,880
Speaker 1: the thing that feeds into this party bro thing is

1481
01:23:09,320 --> 01:23:12,000
Speaker 1: as a straight woman, I have had sex with men,

1482
01:23:12,680 --> 01:23:15,479
Speaker 1: and straight men uh seem to think that ladies are

1483
01:23:15,520 --> 01:23:23,200
Speaker 1: into strangling. Actually I don't, but but it's definitely and

1484
01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:25,800
Speaker 1: there's there's like I've sadly seen things about this on

1485
01:23:25,880 --> 01:23:28,160
Speaker 1: the internet, something to be said by like, you know,

1486
01:23:28,280 --> 01:23:31,840
Speaker 1: a loving, trusting partner, like slightly choking what, okay, whatever,

1487
01:23:33,360 --> 01:23:35,559
Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. But I mean, I think there are dudes,

1488
01:23:35,640 --> 01:23:38,120
Speaker 1: especially if you have a prostitute, right, and like, dudes

1489
01:23:38,200 --> 01:23:41,000
Speaker 1: think that ladies love that. And I don't know what

1490
01:23:41,160 --> 01:23:48,120
Speaker 1: it is. I think it's probably there are some guys

1491
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:52,120
Speaker 1: out there who and in certain circles and in a

1492
01:23:52,200 --> 01:23:55,920
Speaker 1: prostitute situation, it is a power place. So yes, And

1493
01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:58,360
Speaker 1: so the fact that a lot of these women were

1494
01:23:58,439 --> 01:24:02,000
Speaker 1: prostitutes who were strangle does to me feed into this

1495
01:24:02,280 --> 01:24:05,120
Speaker 1: of like, oh crap, I got high on coke with

1496
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:07,800
Speaker 1: this prostitute and was super drunk and we were having

1497
01:24:07,920 --> 01:24:11,839
Speaker 1: sex and I was choking her and suddenly she stopped

1498
01:24:11,920 --> 01:24:17,919
Speaker 1: moaning fake fake in in. Uh yeah, that was brackets

1499
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:21,360
Speaker 1: bracket speed, Like dude, how did you not notice? Right?

1500
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:24,560
Speaker 1: She stopped moaning and like, oh crap, she's dead, Like

1501
01:24:25,320 --> 01:24:26,800
Speaker 1: how do I get rid of this? Right? I mean,

1502
01:24:26,880 --> 01:24:30,040
Speaker 1: so it's I don't want to advocate for that. I

1503
01:24:30,280 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 1: much more like that it's nefarious serial killers that are

1504
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:39,000
Speaker 1: like killing. But it wouldn't surprise me that much to

1505
01:24:39,080 --> 01:24:42,000
Speaker 1: find out that it was just some bro dudes who

1506
01:24:42,920 --> 01:24:46,479
Speaker 1: were into choking and accidentally killed a bunch of hookers.

1507
01:24:46,720 --> 01:24:48,519
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that would really account for

1508
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:50,280
Speaker 1: all of them, though. I don't think it would either,

1509
01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:53,000
Speaker 1: particularly the dismembered ones. Right. The dismembered ones for me

1510
01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:58,439
Speaker 1: have to be serial killer status. That's just because I

1511
01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:02,479
Speaker 1: normally want to believe that anybody who would totally dismember

1512
01:25:02,520 --> 01:25:04,959
Speaker 1: a body like that and drop it in multiple locations

1513
01:25:05,720 --> 01:25:08,840
Speaker 1: have to be a serial killer with like a very

1514
01:25:09,160 --> 01:25:11,960
Speaker 1: messed up mind. And I know you're making that face

1515
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:15,000
Speaker 1: because I don't, yeah, but whatever. In my mind, the

1516
01:25:15,080 --> 01:25:17,760
Speaker 1: only people who do that are really messed up people

1517
01:25:17,840 --> 01:25:19,880
Speaker 1: that I don't encounter everything. And see, I've watched too

1518
01:25:19,960 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 1: many I've watched too many movies and too many TV

1519
01:25:22,640 --> 01:25:26,280
Speaker 1: shows to not think to myself if I was in

1520
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:30,560
Speaker 1: some accidental situation where I accidentally killed somebody. What is

1521
01:25:30,600 --> 01:25:33,639
Speaker 1: easier to get rid of a full hundred some odd

1522
01:25:33,680 --> 01:25:36,720
Speaker 1: pound body or a bunch of smaller pieces that I

1523
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:40,280
Speaker 1: can spread about. And while I might do a job

1524
01:25:40,360 --> 01:25:42,880
Speaker 1: of hacking at a park with a knife or naxe

1525
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:44,800
Speaker 1: or whatever, all of these things which I own, so

1526
01:25:44,880 --> 01:25:48,559
Speaker 1: don't come into my house. Um, you know, it's it's

1527
01:25:48,600 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 1: just that for most of us it would. I mean

1528
01:25:50,439 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 1: I I totally understand parting them out and taking them

1529
01:25:53,160 --> 01:25:57,519
Speaker 1: out in separate small loads makes a lot of sense.

1530
01:25:57,600 --> 01:25:59,120
Speaker 1: I just don't think I could do it. I just

1531
01:25:59,200 --> 01:26:03,120
Speaker 1: want you to think of the like emotional toll, like

1532
01:26:03,200 --> 01:26:06,120
Speaker 1: have you ever butchered a chicken? Actually not? I know

1533
01:26:06,240 --> 01:26:08,560
Speaker 1: you have chickens. Have you ever butchered a chicken? I

1534
01:26:08,800 --> 01:26:12,320
Speaker 1: have you? Do? You want to know how terribly cold

1535
01:26:12,360 --> 01:26:16,960
Speaker 1: I am when it comes to dead things. When so

1536
01:26:17,080 --> 01:26:19,120
Speaker 1: I went to school in a rural area and we

1537
01:26:19,200 --> 01:26:21,960
Speaker 1: had the mobile butcher come and he drove to the

1538
01:26:22,040 --> 01:26:25,400
Speaker 1: barn and he killed a pig, and he hoisted the

1539
01:26:25,439 --> 01:26:29,800
Speaker 1: pig and he was dressing and butchering it right there,

1540
01:26:30,160 --> 01:26:32,599
Speaker 1: all of it in the barn. And I was standing

1541
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:36,120
Speaker 1: there watching the whole thing, eating a bag of crunchy

1542
01:26:36,479 --> 01:26:41,040
Speaker 1: Cheetos like it didn't phase me at all. It was meat.

1543
01:26:41,520 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 1: So that's been worried about Joe killing Steve, like like

1544
01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:52,200
Speaker 1: once something is gone. I don't. I's the weird thing.

1545
01:26:52,240 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 1: I don't. So I can see whereas not that I

1546
01:26:54,760 --> 01:26:57,040
Speaker 1: would ever do this, but I can see everything. Okay,

1547
01:26:57,160 --> 01:26:58,920
Speaker 1: well this it's it's business now. I just gotta I

1548
01:26:58,920 --> 01:27:00,920
Speaker 1: gotta do this thing. I don't think it would actually

1549
01:27:00,960 --> 01:27:03,120
Speaker 1: be that way for you probably think you're better. I

1550
01:27:03,120 --> 01:27:06,120
Speaker 1: would probably pee myself and be crying in the corner.

1551
01:27:06,400 --> 01:27:08,200
Speaker 1: I don't think you could actually do it, you know,

1552
01:27:08,280 --> 01:27:10,040
Speaker 1: after I touched it with a knife, not even cut,

1553
01:27:10,120 --> 01:27:13,920
Speaker 1: just oh I can't do it. Yeah, it's one thing

1554
01:27:13,960 --> 01:27:15,600
Speaker 1: to do it to an animal. That which is in

1555
01:27:15,680 --> 01:27:21,639
Speaker 1: my mind, kind of stopped that. Yeah, but I don't think.

1556
01:27:22,479 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I think there's no way that this is

1557
01:27:25,040 --> 01:27:29,759
Speaker 1: just one person. I agree, and I guess I don't

1558
01:27:30,120 --> 01:27:32,559
Speaker 1: know if it's like a couple of different serial killers

1559
01:27:32,800 --> 01:27:34,639
Speaker 1: or whatever. I think one of them, in my mind,

1560
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:37,360
Speaker 1: definitely has to be a serial killer. The others, I

1561
01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:40,400
Speaker 1: don't know. It's tragic no matter what. Well, you know

1562
01:27:40,439 --> 01:27:42,400
Speaker 1: what we haven't talked about. I mean you you hinted

1563
01:27:42,479 --> 01:27:45,120
Speaker 1: this a little bit. But but okay, let's just let's

1564
01:27:45,200 --> 01:27:47,240
Speaker 1: step away from the theories that we've already got, but

1565
01:27:47,400 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: let's just say it is a something that can to

1566
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:52,200
Speaker 1: what you said, which is a group dumping ground. But

1567
01:27:52,360 --> 01:27:56,519
Speaker 1: let's say that it's a gang dumping ground. So it's

1568
01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, oh well, you know, t Bone, he he

1569
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:03,719
Speaker 1: got this, he got this hooker and things a little

1570
01:28:03,760 --> 01:28:04,840
Speaker 1: too far and he took care of him. Then a

1571
01:28:04,920 --> 01:28:08,360
Speaker 1: year later like, oh well, we'll skippy over there. Oh well,

1572
01:28:08,400 --> 01:28:10,080
Speaker 1: I'll just put it with the last We'll just let's

1573
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:13,519
Speaker 1: taken this place we dumped the last one. But that ganks.

1574
01:28:13,640 --> 01:28:16,240
Speaker 1: Gangs don't work that way. I understand that, Joe. But

1575
01:28:16,320 --> 01:28:20,840
Speaker 1: I'm just saying it could be not as organized as

1576
01:28:21,160 --> 01:28:24,960
Speaker 1: the whole party bro party. Now, I don't buy the

1577
01:28:25,000 --> 01:28:27,960
Speaker 1: party broke conspiracy. It seems to me. It seems to

1578
01:28:28,040 --> 01:28:29,960
Speaker 1: me it's two serial killers and a bunch of one

1579
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:34,400
Speaker 1: off killings, because I mean, you well, it happens to

1580
01:28:34,479 --> 01:28:37,639
Speaker 1: me the most. It has to be the It happens

1581
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:40,560
Speaker 1: to be the most logical dumping ground next to a

1582
01:28:40,640 --> 01:28:43,000
Speaker 1: metro area that's composed of like eight and a half

1583
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:46,439
Speaker 1: million people. You know, and so yeah, of course a

1584
01:28:46,479 --> 01:28:49,680
Speaker 1: million people lived there, and there's a couple of serial killers. Yea,

1585
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:52,760
Speaker 1: at least one. I mean, there's got to be some,

1586
01:28:53,160 --> 01:28:55,280
Speaker 1: you know, on the dark web. I'm sure that there's

1587
01:28:55,360 --> 01:28:59,160
Speaker 1: some like Google Best Places to you know, when somebody says, well,

1588
01:28:59,200 --> 01:29:01,320
Speaker 1: I'm in the New York area and I dismembered and

1589
01:29:01,439 --> 01:29:03,439
Speaker 1: dumped four different women in this area, and I have

1590
01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:07,880
Speaker 1: been caught yet some message board thing. Yeah, yeah, by

1591
01:29:07,880 --> 01:29:10,080
Speaker 1: anything on the dark web, you can find how to

1592
01:29:10,160 --> 01:29:14,240
Speaker 1: kill a prosty dot org. Yeah. Well so, but the police, now,

1593
01:29:14,320 --> 01:29:17,000
Speaker 1: my understanding is their latest thinking is that there's one

1594
01:29:17,120 --> 01:29:20,200
Speaker 1: serial killer involved in all this, which surprises me a

1595
01:29:20,240 --> 01:29:26,160
Speaker 1: little bit because so there I don't want to say

1596
01:29:26,280 --> 01:29:30,800
Speaker 1: negative things about the New York Police Department. There have

1597
01:29:31,280 --> 01:29:37,639
Speaker 1: been some very strange events and in circumstances around this case.

1598
01:29:38,080 --> 01:29:42,000
Speaker 1: And I also feel like a lot of media publicity

1599
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:45,160
Speaker 1: has driven the statements and comments that they put out.

1600
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:50,200
Speaker 1: Like Mary, Mary, she was Shannon's mom, she did she

1601
01:29:50,360 --> 01:29:53,479
Speaker 1: did a lot of stuff. The other family members of

1602
01:29:53,560 --> 01:29:56,880
Speaker 1: the first four victims, the Burlett victims, they were all

1603
01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:59,960
Speaker 1: banded together and then Mary kind of went off as

1604
01:30:00,000 --> 01:30:03,880
Speaker 1: reservation and they there was a lot of pressure put

1605
01:30:03,960 --> 01:30:07,000
Speaker 1: on the police. There were some police changes that happened

1606
01:30:07,040 --> 01:30:10,160
Speaker 1: because of it. So you know, I mean they may

1607
01:30:10,280 --> 01:30:12,840
Speaker 1: have just I mean, this is something. This is me

1608
01:30:13,040 --> 01:30:15,760
Speaker 1: totally guessing. They may have said, listen, we have to

1609
01:30:15,840 --> 01:30:17,800
Speaker 1: take a stand and we're going to take a stand

1610
01:30:17,880 --> 01:30:21,519
Speaker 1: here because the families are just constantly causing a ruckus

1611
01:30:21,640 --> 01:30:23,920
Speaker 1: and screaming, and we just have to say this, even

1612
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:27,360
Speaker 1: if we don't believe it internally, we have to publicly

1613
01:30:27,439 --> 01:30:30,160
Speaker 1: say something. Yeah, you know, and then you never you

1614
01:30:30,240 --> 01:30:32,920
Speaker 1: never know, I mean, actually make it would make sense

1615
01:30:32,960 --> 01:30:35,560
Speaker 1: for me. Number one. The police withhold information for the

1616
01:30:35,640 --> 01:30:38,680
Speaker 1: public for good reasons, for very good reasons, and I

1617
01:30:38,800 --> 01:30:41,920
Speaker 1: think they sometimes put out disinformation. It may very well

1618
01:30:42,000 --> 01:30:44,160
Speaker 1: be because it seems pretty plainly obvious to me that

1619
01:30:44,240 --> 01:30:47,040
Speaker 1: this is not the work of us. You know, it's not.

1620
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:51,600
Speaker 1: It's not just variant, no, no, very much variable. And

1621
01:30:51,720 --> 01:30:54,040
Speaker 1: like I said, that's such an attractive dumping ground. Of

1622
01:30:54,080 --> 01:30:56,040
Speaker 1: course you're gonna find bodies, said, they should keep looking

1623
01:30:56,080 --> 01:31:01,920
Speaker 1: a bit, they'll find more. Really, things keep washing up.

1624
01:31:02,760 --> 01:31:04,960
Speaker 1: It's a great spot to dump a body because it's

1625
01:31:05,120 --> 01:31:08,840
Speaker 1: right off of that coast, you know, and God knows

1626
01:31:09,280 --> 01:31:13,519
Speaker 1: how many remains were washed away in the storms in

1627
01:31:13,600 --> 01:31:17,000
Speaker 1: the last couple of years, you know, or or even

1628
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:20,920
Speaker 1: more maybe things were exposed. It's hard to say. Yeah,

1629
01:31:21,080 --> 01:31:23,760
Speaker 1: and so yeah, of course there's body is there. So yeah.

1630
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:26,800
Speaker 1: So anyway, that's That's about as much as I've got

1631
01:31:26,840 --> 01:31:29,960
Speaker 1: to say about the whole thing. I'm done. Yeah, all right,

1632
01:31:30,240 --> 01:31:32,280
Speaker 1: Well that's the I guess that's the end of it.

1633
01:31:32,360 --> 01:31:35,880
Speaker 1: So let's get into all the bits and pieces of

1634
01:31:36,040 --> 01:31:39,640
Speaker 1: the show that everybody waits. How they do, this is

1635
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:41,680
Speaker 1: what they this is why they download is to hear

1636
01:31:41,720 --> 01:31:44,719
Speaker 1: all this stuff. Actually, I think I think that people

1637
01:31:44,800 --> 01:31:47,560
Speaker 1: probably have clicked stopped by this point. That was not

1638
01:31:47,680 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 1: a punt I meant to have devon. Uh So, first off,

1639
01:31:50,800 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 1: you can find this episode, as well as all episodes

1640
01:31:54,000 --> 01:31:56,880
Speaker 1: and the links to the research for our episodes on

1641
01:31:56,920 --> 01:32:00,880
Speaker 1: our website. That website is Thinking Sideways pod cast dot com.

1642
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:04,800
Speaker 1: We are available on a variety of sources. Uh. If

1643
01:32:04,840 --> 01:32:07,880
Speaker 1: you're going to download, there is directly from the website.

1644
01:32:08,160 --> 01:32:12,000
Speaker 1: You can download a lot of people do it from iTunes, uh, Stitcher,

1645
01:32:12,720 --> 01:32:16,320
Speaker 1: Google Play, stitcher and Google Player. Streaming services. There's all

1646
01:32:16,439 --> 01:32:19,639
Speaker 1: kinds of streaming things. But the point is uh leave

1647
01:32:19,680 --> 01:32:22,280
Speaker 1: a comment if you can a good one. We prefer

1648
01:32:22,400 --> 01:32:25,200
Speaker 1: if you've got concerns, please get ahold us. We'll talk

1649
01:32:25,200 --> 01:32:27,880
Speaker 1: about things that are concerning to you a rating, because

1650
01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:30,519
Speaker 1: that's usually what bumps us up into popularity and then

1651
01:32:30,560 --> 01:32:32,439
Speaker 1: other people are going to find us because that's how

1652
01:32:32,520 --> 01:32:37,439
Speaker 1: podcasts work. Um. We are on the social media, so

1653
01:32:37,640 --> 01:32:41,040
Speaker 1: we are on Facebook. We have the Facebook page and

1654
01:32:41,240 --> 01:32:43,479
Speaker 1: the Facebook group, both of which are very busy and

1655
01:32:43,520 --> 01:32:46,439
Speaker 1: a lot of fun. We are on Twitter, so we

1656
01:32:46,520 --> 01:32:49,360
Speaker 1: are thinking sideways without the G in the middle. That's

1657
01:32:49,360 --> 01:32:51,759
Speaker 1: because of that character limit that we all love on Twitter.

1658
01:32:52,400 --> 01:32:54,519
Speaker 1: But that's where funny little things that happen in the

1659
01:32:54,520 --> 01:32:57,400
Speaker 1: episodes get tweeted out by Devin, as well as all

1660
01:32:57,439 --> 01:33:00,320
Speaker 1: the other random stuff that she finds on the internet. Games.

1661
01:33:01,439 --> 01:33:04,519
Speaker 1: We also have a subreddit, so we are on there

1662
01:33:04,840 --> 01:33:09,280
Speaker 1: and conversations about each episode tend to happen there, as

1663
01:33:09,479 --> 01:33:11,640
Speaker 1: they also happened on the Facebook page. They seem to

1664
01:33:11,680 --> 01:33:15,439
Speaker 1: happen kind of everywhere. Uh. If you have questions, you

1665
01:33:15,600 --> 01:33:18,519
Speaker 1: have comments, you have concerned you have feedback, you have

1666
01:33:18,640 --> 01:33:21,000
Speaker 1: story suggestions, or you have anything else that you would

1667
01:33:21,040 --> 01:33:23,439
Speaker 1: like to say two us directly. You can do so

1668
01:33:24,520 --> 01:33:27,360
Speaker 1: via email. So if you want to be King Kong

1669
01:33:27,479 --> 01:33:29,760
Speaker 1: and being on your chest and show it out at us,

1670
01:33:30,080 --> 01:33:33,679
Speaker 1: you can do that through our email which is Thinking

1671
01:33:33,800 --> 01:33:38,680
Speaker 1: Sideways podcast at gmail dot com. UH. And last, but

1672
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:42,120
Speaker 1: of course not least, there is support of the show. UH.

1673
01:33:42,200 --> 01:33:43,880
Speaker 1: There's a couple of different ways to go about that.

1674
01:33:44,120 --> 01:33:48,320
Speaker 1: We have merchandise, so sut stickers, phone cases, mugs, all

1675
01:33:48,360 --> 01:33:50,880
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, slowly putting more and more on

1676
01:33:51,080 --> 01:33:55,000
Speaker 1: their UH. Those are available to you through both Zazzle

1677
01:33:55,280 --> 01:33:58,000
Speaker 1: and red Bubble. The links to directly to our stores

1678
01:33:58,240 --> 01:34:00,960
Speaker 1: on the website. On the right hand side, we have

1679
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:03,960
Speaker 1: if you want to do a donation, but it's a

1680
01:34:04,000 --> 01:34:06,160
Speaker 1: one time donation is what you want to do, we

1681
01:34:06,280 --> 01:34:08,519
Speaker 1: have a PayPal account that you can do directly to,

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01:34:09,320 --> 01:34:12,000
Speaker 1: or if you want to do a continuing donation, you

1683
01:34:12,080 --> 01:34:15,280
Speaker 1: can do so on Patreon, which is patreon dot com

1684
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:20,040
Speaker 1: slash Thinking Sideways. And I realize the other day we

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01:34:20,160 --> 01:34:22,360
Speaker 1: say it so often that people may not realize how

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01:34:22,479 --> 01:34:26,360
Speaker 1: Patreon is spelled. It's a good point. A t R

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01:34:26,439 --> 01:34:29,880
Speaker 1: E O N. That is exactly right, Joe, thank you,

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01:34:29,920 --> 01:34:31,920
Speaker 1: because I was looking suddenly after I had said that.

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01:34:32,479 --> 01:34:35,960
Speaker 1: But Patreon is a continuing basis. So every time we

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01:34:36,040 --> 01:34:39,320
Speaker 1: post something, you you pledge a certain amount. So if

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01:34:39,400 --> 01:34:41,400
Speaker 1: you are in a situation where you can do that,

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01:34:41,520 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 1: that's great. If not, and you want to do the

1693
01:34:43,200 --> 01:34:45,479
Speaker 1: one time, that's great. If you are not in a

1694
01:34:45,600 --> 01:34:49,640
Speaker 1: situation to donate to the show at all, that's great too.

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01:34:49,720 --> 01:34:52,760
Speaker 1: This is free content. We appreciate what you do. It

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01:34:52,920 --> 01:34:55,040
Speaker 1: helps us out when you do that, but it is

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01:34:55,160 --> 01:34:59,400
Speaker 1: by no means a requirement. I want to point out too.

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01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:01,920
Speaker 1: Sometimes we we dropped a little little funny shorts and

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01:35:01,960 --> 01:35:04,080
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah, we never, we never churned out. Yeah,

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01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:08,759
Speaker 1: those don't get charged to your Patreon. No standard content.

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01:35:08,840 --> 01:35:12,679
Speaker 1: And that's it. Yeah, really that is I think all

1702
01:35:12,760 --> 01:35:17,280
Speaker 1: of the little, the loose ends that we've got left here, Okay,

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01:35:17,360 --> 01:35:19,720
Speaker 1: I think so. All right, well then if that's it,

1704
01:35:19,880 --> 01:35:21,760
Speaker 1: ladies and gentlemen, we're gonna we're gonna hack it up

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01:35:21,840 --> 01:35:23,679
Speaker 1: and we will talk to you next week.