1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:05,560 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:10,719 Speaker 1: Thing from My Heart Radio. My guest today is one 3 00:00:10,760 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: of Britain's leading royal historians, Dr David Starkey. Starkey has 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: lectured at the London School of Economics and authored numerous 5 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: books and television series on the English monarchy. He's also 6 00:00:25,600 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: known for his blazingly sharp commentary on BBC four's debate program, 7 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 1: The Moral Maze, BBC one's Question Time, and most recently 8 00:00:36,680 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: covering the Queen's Platinum Jubilee for gb News. Since David 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,160 Speaker 1: Starkey has written dozens of books and produced hours upon 10 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:50,120 Speaker 1: hours of documentary television. I was curious how he's able 11 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: to produce such a large body of work. Well, I'm 12 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 1: I am prolific, actually, Alec, and I'm not if you've noticed, 13 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,280 Speaker 1: as there are terrible high atosis. The books tend to 14 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: cluster very closely together. There are moments when I churned 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: stuff out almost unconsciously. I mean, let's deal with the 16 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:16,160 Speaker 1: two polls of how I write and what I've done, 17 00:01:16,600 --> 00:01:20,959 Speaker 1: and let's take the one where my late partner James Brown, 18 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 1: who plays a key role in so much of this, 19 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,320 Speaker 1: said I should never say, my Elizabeth book, which is 20 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: on the life of the not the present Queen Elizabeth, 21 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: of course, but the first Queen Elizabeth, who comes to 22 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 1: the throne at the same sort of age, five centuries ago. 23 00:01:38,400 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: In I wrote that book starting in the very end 24 00:01:45,560 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: of August, and I had finished it by the end 25 00:01:52,440 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: of January. And I wrote it and James said, I 26 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 1: should never say this with a sense of dictation of 27 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 1: somebody talking to me, a kind of inner process. And 28 00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: it's a book that I think is a good piece 29 00:02:09,919 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 1: of history, but more important than els, it's a kind 30 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 1: of it's it's an attempt at re envisaging historical biography 31 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 1: through a medium of the novel, and through I mean 32 00:02:21,919 --> 00:02:25,560 Speaker 1: in terms of style, and through a very very conscious 33 00:02:25,600 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: exercise of how to write. And the chapters are very short. 34 00:02:31,000 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: There are normally very short sentences. There's one chapter which 35 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: many reviewers got terribly excited about, which is a page long. 36 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: It deals with the death of Elizabeth's great rival and 37 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:48,800 Speaker 1: her cousin, her half sister Mary Tudor, and it says 38 00:02:48,840 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: all that it needs to do, cleverly, succinctly, and above all, finally, 39 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:57,920 Speaker 1: it's about a death. I was writing it much more 40 00:02:58,240 --> 00:03:01,120 Speaker 1: as you would have written fiction in terms of the 41 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: flow of the sense of the language driving it. On 42 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 1: the other hand, the other poll of my creativity or 43 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:12,560 Speaker 1: lack of it, or productivity or lack of it, is 44 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,920 Speaker 1: my biography of Henry the Eighth, which, one way or another, 45 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: I suppose I started in seven and have not yet 46 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: fully finished an unfinished book. I well, I published the 47 00:03:28,639 --> 00:03:32,919 Speaker 1: first volume of the the biography, the the one again 48 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,360 Speaker 1: on Henry's youth. It's not it's it's a kind of 49 00:03:36,760 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: deliberate fragment. And my great problem with that book has 50 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 1: been I suppose I know too much. You can know 51 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 1: too much, you can have too much detail. I've also, 52 00:03:49,920 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: because again I know too much, I've been changing my mind. 53 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:56,600 Speaker 1: Give me an example of what you changed your mind about. 54 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: I thought I understood the relationship between Henry the Eighth 55 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: and his father, Hendry the seventh. I thought I understood 56 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 1: the beginning of the reign, which, of course is is 57 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,280 Speaker 1: the moment which a monarch, like a president or a 58 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: Napoleon in his first hundred days is when you really 59 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: put your impress on things. And then I discovered I 60 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: was wrong, And I think one of the most important 61 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 1: things to be aware of is when you are wrong. 62 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:30,040 Speaker 1: So many people persist with an original idea and original 63 00:04:30,120 --> 00:04:33,799 Speaker 1: insight even when the evidence tells them that it's wrong. 64 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: And I can't do that, and I always right directly 65 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: from the historical evidence. Again, one of the things that 66 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,280 Speaker 1: people when they're being kind, some people are being very 67 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: unkind what people say about my books is this the 68 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 1: sense of the history actually getting up and talking to you. 69 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: And the reasons for that is I write directly from 70 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: the sources. The basic way I proceed, you know, in 71 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: Six Wives or Elizabeth or indeed Henry, I operate from 72 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: a chronological in other words, in strict order of events 73 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 1: and list of documents, dates, whatever that act as the 74 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: spine of the narrative. I'm a passionate believer in narrative history, 75 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: in telling the story. But the evidence is there, So 76 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: when you're doing the research, is there a small grouping 77 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 1: of sources for that which when you want to understand 78 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,880 Speaker 1: the truth and you want the facts as you recognize 79 00:05:34,880 --> 00:05:38,159 Speaker 1: them about Henry the Eighth's childhood and all of the history, 80 00:05:38,160 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: you've given us this thumbnail about us. Now, where do 81 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:45,359 Speaker 1: you typically go? Where does that exist in England? It 82 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: exists in various forms, some of them very very well 83 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: known annics, and some of them that we hardly know 84 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,840 Speaker 1: at all. I mean, the revelations that I came up 85 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: with the issue of money is going through the records 86 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: of Hender the sevens private finance is. And the reason I, 87 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:06,000 Speaker 1: as it were, rethought them was there was a remarkable project. 88 00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: The manuscripts exists. They're pretty continuous there, with some rather 89 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:13,280 Speaker 1: large gaps at awkward moments, but there was a project 90 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: to transfer a very modern kind of project to edit 91 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: the manuscripts and to put them online. And I was 92 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: involved in that project as the kind of senior citizen, 93 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 1: if you like, an earlier generation, a scholar and all 94 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: the rest of it. So I suddenly started going through 95 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:34,080 Speaker 1: them with a degree of detail that I've never done before. Remember, 96 00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:40,080 Speaker 1: you're looking at, effectively a daily record of royal expenditure 97 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: on everything from and I have bought what might it be, 98 00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: a couple of bonnets for one of my pages too, 99 00:06:47,480 --> 00:06:49,600 Speaker 1: I am going to send a hundred and thousands odd 100 00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:54,520 Speaker 1: thousand pounds right so between everything from tops two hundreds 101 00:06:54,560 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: of thousands of pounds, all of course expressed in Roman numbers, 102 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: which doesn't do necessarily make life very easy. But I 103 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: did two things with with this set of accounts. And 104 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: I looked at them simply in terms of retotaling them 105 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:16,000 Speaker 1: and thinking about what the totals meant. And interestingly, a 106 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 1: generation of earlier scholars came up with with these figures, 107 00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 1: but they were using eighteen century transcripts rather than the 108 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: original manuscripts. And it was very great German scholar who 109 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: did the basic work, and he looked at that figure 110 00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: of a hundred none thousand pounds and he said, simply, 111 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,520 Speaker 1: this is impossible. It must be a miss transcript. It 112 00:07:37,640 --> 00:07:41,040 Speaker 1: can't have happened. And then of course I discovered it had. 113 00:07:41,360 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 1: And his stories simply tend to repeat each other. They 114 00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: don't question. We take shortcuts because it's much easier. And 115 00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: also there's a peculiar thing the way modern scholarship works, 116 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,440 Speaker 1: which is this emphasis on citation. You cite a source, 117 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: but I, of course, once a mistake has actually got 118 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: into the process unless you go back right right to 119 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: the beginning. And here again, like there's as it's strange 120 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: in the sense that your own period can very much 121 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: color your approach. And my attitude to scholarship was formed 122 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: in two very different ways a very different periods of 123 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: my life. The first was when I was a young 124 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: man at Cambridge. I had a remarkable teacher, a man 125 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:35,199 Speaker 1: called His name is normally given as Jeffrey Elton. His 126 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:39,320 Speaker 1: real name is Gottfried Uolf Ehlenberg. He is one of 127 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:45,480 Speaker 1: those extraordinary Jewish refugees of the nineteen thirties, totally transformed 128 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: intellectual life in Britain and America. And he represented the 129 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: high German tradition of rigorous academic scholarship. And I studied 130 00:08:56,800 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: with him in my final year as an undergraduate student, 131 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: and then I did my research with him. And I 132 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: suppose in retrospect the great moment of my emerging as 133 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: an independent scholar was when I was still Diabean. I 134 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,800 Speaker 1: had been twenty two, I was in my final year 135 00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,679 Speaker 1: as an undergraduate. I was doing my special subject with him. 136 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: And the special subject was, again, it was on the 137 00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: fifteen thirties, and you didn't have original documents, but you 138 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: had extracts from them. And Jeoffrey had done the work 139 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: very carefully, and he transcribed them and he described them. 140 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: And I can still remember the moment as a tentative 141 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: hand went up and said Professor Elton, I think you've 142 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: got this document wrong. As a twenty two year old 143 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:45,680 Speaker 1: to this great match and to know what I was right, 144 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: I thought at that point, well, I can probably do 145 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: this now you mentioned that Henry the seventh is the 146 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:56,120 Speaker 1: commencement of you will or I'll let you use your 147 00:09:56,160 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 1: words of the House of Tutor explained to our listeners. 148 00:10:00,559 --> 00:10:04,560 Speaker 1: Who are you know? Many Americans have zero knowledge of 149 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:07,440 Speaker 1: the history of the British family, and little to none 150 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:10,480 Speaker 1: of the current British family. They only know scandal and 151 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: gossip and so forth. What is the birth of a house? 152 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: What is a house? And how does one house take over? 153 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: If you will? Or come to the four? Were now 154 00:10:19,640 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 1: in the period of the House of Windsor, which I 155 00:10:21,559 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: think that was formed in nineteen seventeen, correct, So what 156 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: is a house and how does a house come to 157 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,599 Speaker 1: the four? If you will? Well, you have the Kennedys, 158 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: you have a succession a father son, and then nephews, 159 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: niece's grandchildren and whatever. And that's exactly the same. It's 160 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: a dynasty again, you know. It was a famous film, 161 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 1: is a famous TV series called Dynasty about the successive 162 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: generations of the family. And that is what it is. 163 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 1: The various dynasties that have ruled the English throne take 164 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 1: these names. There are often names that we give them backwards. Now, 165 00:10:58,480 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: how does one dynasty succeed another? Well, in the case 166 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: of five, which is the succession between the House of 167 00:11:07,440 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: York and the House of Tudor, you succeed by killing 168 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: again very much, I suppose, you know, Like many modern 169 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: TV series, one monarch kills another monarch, and aspirant monarch 170 00:11:20,400 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: kills his rival and literally at the Battle of Bosworth 171 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: in rich Of the third of the House of York 172 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: and Hendra the seventh, he's not yet called hend of 173 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,439 Speaker 1: the seventh, he's called Henry, Earl of Richmond. They literally fight. 174 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: They don't quite fight face to face, but you know, 175 00:11:38,679 --> 00:11:42,720 Speaker 1: it's like something out of a fantastic myth. He charges 176 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:46,200 Speaker 1: down at the head of his knights, mounted on horseback, 177 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:49,400 Speaker 1: wearing full armor. He has got the crown, the actual 178 00:11:49,480 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: gold element of the crown, the band of the crown 179 00:11:52,880 --> 00:11:55,800 Speaker 1: put on over his helmet. They charged down with their 180 00:11:55,840 --> 00:12:00,120 Speaker 1: great lances towards Hender seventh, Henry Earl of Richmond and 181 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: his very small army at the bottom, and Richard is 182 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 1: literally aiming to strike at Henry Earl of Richmond himself. 183 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 1: He aims for his standard. He actually cuts down his 184 00:12:13,040 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: standard bearer, and he's only brought down because again the paradox, 185 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:20,439 Speaker 1: hend of the seventh takes the throne of England. Henry 186 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 1: heard of Richmond takes the throne of England with French help, 187 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: and Henry Earl of Richmond emerges triumphant on the field 188 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: of Bosworth and is literally crowned with the band of 189 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: Richard's crown which had been torn off his helmet and 190 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,600 Speaker 1: has put on Henry's and it had been found in 191 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: a hawthorn bush. Is quite clear this actually it's a legend, 192 00:12:42,720 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: but it's true. It actually happens, and he's crowned on 193 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,440 Speaker 1: the battlefield. So it is the out of medieval fantasy, right, 194 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 1: it's true. Now, how is the House of Winds are invented? Well, 195 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:57,680 Speaker 1: seventeen is quite a long way from and what happens 196 00:12:57,720 --> 00:13:03,640 Speaker 1: in nineteen seventeen. It's a pr are exercise, pure pr exercise, 197 00:13:03,800 --> 00:13:06,559 Speaker 1: and one of the most brilliant pieces of pr that 198 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: ever men carried out. By the early twentieth century, as 199 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: it had been since the beginning of the eighteenth century, 200 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:16,640 Speaker 1: as it was when America separates by an act of 201 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,679 Speaker 1: rebellion from Great Britain. Britain is ruled by a German 202 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: royal house, by the House of Hanover, and it remains 203 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: to an extraordinary extent German through the following two centuries, 204 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: through the nineteenth century and into the early twentieth century. 205 00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:38,400 Speaker 1: Because of their marriage customs, they marry back into Germany. So, 206 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 1: for example, Victoria marries her remote cousin called Albert of 207 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: sax Calledbert Guta and Victorian Albert actually converse with each 208 00:13:48,760 --> 00:13:52,439 Speaker 1: other in German. They write letters to each other in German. 209 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,640 Speaker 1: They discuss the fate of the British Empire in German. 210 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 1: And this continues right through to the beginning of the 211 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: twentieth century, when unfortunately, of course, in nineteen fourteen England 212 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,080 Speaker 1: and Germany go to war. But of course, if you're 213 00:14:07,120 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: fighting a war in an age of nations and nationhood, 214 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 1: how can you have your ruler being German when you're 215 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: fighting the Germans in absolute war? The First World War, 216 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:21,920 Speaker 1: I mean even more than the American Civil War is 217 00:14:21,960 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: the first total war. You can't do it. So what 218 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 1: you do is you reinvent and so you completely reinvent 219 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: the monarchy. You rename it. You give it a consciously 220 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 1: English name. You give it this name Windsor Brilliant. You know, 221 00:14:40,720 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: it's Shakespeare. It's the merry Wives of Windsor. It's a 222 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: little touch of soft soap, you know, woods of winds 223 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: of the kind of nice smell on your hands. It's 224 00:14:49,800 --> 00:14:55,560 Speaker 1: the English countryside marketing, the great historic castle. It's musterly. 225 00:14:55,760 --> 00:14:58,080 Speaker 1: So you reinvent the name. But you do much more 226 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: than reinvent the name. You re invent everything. You reinvent 227 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:05,880 Speaker 1: the marriage custom. You were talking about the fact that 228 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: we just know the opera soap opera, the modern soap opera. 229 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: Monarchy also goes back to nineteen seventeen because for the 230 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: first time they decide their children can marry english men 231 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: and English women. So you can present this as romance, 232 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: the sort of romance of the marriage of Charles and 233 00:15:24,320 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: Diana that goes so catastrophically wrong. You reinvent royal ceremony. 234 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: Before this point, most royal ceremony is private. Royal marriages 235 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:37,920 Speaker 1: take place in tiny little spaces like the Chapel Royal 236 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: at St. James's. Now suddenly they go back to the abbey, 237 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 1: or they go to Saint Paul's, they go into splendor. 238 00:15:44,920 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 1: You do something even more remarkable. You reinvent you know, 239 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: we have this funny business in Britain, the honor system, 240 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: commanders of the British Empire like me and all this stuff. 241 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: All this is invented in seventeen for the very first 242 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: time that people who are not part of a narrow 243 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: aristocratic circle can be given titles, honors, whatever. And I 244 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 1: suppose what it really amounts to, alex is you consciously 245 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: make the monarchy a paradox. You invent democratic royalty, monarchy democratic, 246 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:24,400 Speaker 1: and it's it's a profound paradox because again the English, 247 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,600 Speaker 1: because of parliament, because of our limit history of limited government, 248 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 1: going right right back to Magna Carta. People think of 249 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 1: England as having been sort of always democratic. It's not true. 250 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:39,440 Speaker 1: We only become full democracy after the First World War 251 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: historian David Starkey. If you enjoy conversations about government and power, 252 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:52,520 Speaker 1: check out my interview with an expert on American history, 253 00:16:52,640 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 1: Michael Wolfe, author of the book Fire and Fury, on 254 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: the Donald Trump presidency. I think one I felt most 255 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,800 Speaker 1: of all is that everybody there was tainted by this 256 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: and felt tainted by this, and believe that they would 257 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:13,679 Speaker 1: not come out ahead, that this was a net loss 258 00:17:13,720 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 1: all of the people around Trump. That's what that's the 259 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: conclusion that they came to, opposite of what you would 260 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: expect people to feel. People come out of the White 261 00:17:23,119 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 1: House and they make lots of money, and they're famous, 262 00:17:25,760 --> 00:17:28,920 Speaker 1: and they have lots of influence and may be proud 263 00:17:28,920 --> 00:17:32,880 Speaker 1: of their work. Exactly and literally all of these people 264 00:17:32,880 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: who went in thinking this would happen to them and 265 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: came out as the months rolled on, thinking this is 266 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:43,479 Speaker 1: all broke. This is not going to work. This is 267 00:17:43,520 --> 00:17:48,119 Speaker 1: not going to end well for anybody. Here more of 268 00:17:48,160 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: my conversation with Michael Wolfe in our archives at Here's 269 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,680 Speaker 1: the Thing dot org. After the Break, David Starkey shares 270 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,480 Speaker 1: his thoughts on Queen Elizabeth's controversial handling of the death 271 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: of Princess Diana. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're listening to 272 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: Here's the Thing. Since the Royal family has played such 273 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:21,360 Speaker 1: a large role in the life and work of Dr 274 00:18:21,480 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 1: David Starkey, I wanted to know if the crown loomed 275 00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: large in his early life very much so, I mean 276 00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: let's be truthful, not in a particularly enthusiastic way. My 277 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: family background was modest. My parents were very definitely working class. 278 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: My father had left school at eleven, my mother at thirteen. 279 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:49,160 Speaker 1: He was a manual worker. My father's politics were very radical. 280 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:55,399 Speaker 1: My father wanted to be a pacifist. He finally decided 281 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: he couldn't declare his pacifism in the Second World War 282 00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: because he'd been unemployed for four terrible years in the 283 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 1: nineteen thirties and undergoing terrible poverty. He was a radical 284 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:11,439 Speaker 1: member of the Labor Party. He was a leading local 285 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:15,479 Speaker 1: trade unionist and all that. I first became absolutely aware 286 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,399 Speaker 1: of the monarchy at a key moment of my life 287 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: and that of many people of my generation, which was 288 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 1: the coronation of Elizabeth the Second in nineteen fifty three. 289 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: I'd remember the day in absolute detail. It was the 290 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 1: first time i'd seen television. And then you watched the ceremony, 291 00:19:33,119 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: which is extraordinary. It's magical. This woman, who was then 292 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: radiantly beautiful, clad in white, as the center of this 293 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: vast ceremony. It's like it's like a Japanese imperial coronation. 294 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 1: It goes on for about six hours, in this huge 295 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:54,879 Speaker 1: space of the abbey, with all these old distinguished gentlemen 296 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: wearing scarlet and fur if they're members of the nobility 297 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,159 Speaker 1: or in elaborate copes and miters of their clergy, and 298 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,840 Speaker 1: this woman at the center of it magically. So that's 299 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: a moment I think which I first and as I said, 300 00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 1: I engage in a way which which resonates in my 301 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:17,840 Speaker 1: memory to the moment was speaking. What would you say 302 00:20:18,080 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 1: in her reign? Most people in the States, the scandal 303 00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:28,280 Speaker 1: obsessed United States, But in this jubilee now seventy years 304 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 1: of this woman serving as Queen. I listened some of 305 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 1: the retrospectives and commentary of people, and they would all 306 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: acknowledge it pretty much the only real meaningful setback for 307 00:20:40,119 --> 00:20:43,040 Speaker 1: her was the handling of the death of Lady Diana. 308 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: That was the only really raging criticisms she faced in 309 00:20:47,119 --> 00:20:50,439 Speaker 1: her reign of so many years. Would you agree that 310 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 1: that was really the only real major setback for her? Yes, 311 00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:57,640 Speaker 1: I mean equally, I think that the British public at 312 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 1: the time of Diana, in the same that we did 313 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:04,840 Speaker 1: at the time of the George Floyd incident in with COVID, 314 00:21:05,119 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: we went through one of those things which the great 315 00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: British historian Lord Macauley said, there is nothing as ridiculous 316 00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,399 Speaker 1: as the British public in one of its periodical fits 317 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: of morality. And what you've got with Diana was a 318 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 1: clash between two completely different views of what monarchy is about. 319 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: For the Queen, monarchy is about service, it's about duty. 320 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: It's about getting on with things, getting up in the morning, 321 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,040 Speaker 1: doing it even if you don't feel very good, never 322 00:21:36,080 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 1: telling anybody if your feet are hurting or you feel miserable. 323 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: For Diana, although Diana, you know, she's the daughter of 324 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,400 Speaker 1: a great English family, our English aristocratic family. The Spencer 325 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: Churchill's Diana always behaved as though she'd been born in 326 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 1: Orange County, and she was profoundly American in her attitudes 327 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 1: to celebrity. She saw monarchy selebrity. She saw her role 328 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: as to be emotionally honest at a time of course, 329 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: when the great problem with with monarchy is that it's 330 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: an individual and the family that is required to have 331 00:22:16,920 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: its personal life and its family life turned into some 332 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,439 Speaker 1: sort of symbol. Now, there's always going to be the 333 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,080 Speaker 1: risk of a violent clash between the reality of the 334 00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 1: humanity and the enormous hopes which are vested in it. 335 00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: And one of the ways that the Queen has always 336 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:40,600 Speaker 1: dealt with that is by simply silence. No one really 337 00:22:40,600 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 1: knows what she thinks about anything, whether with Diana. Diana 338 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 1: decided that the only way and quite understandably, that she 339 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: could protect herself in the horrors that it turned out 340 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 1: of her marriage with Charles was by talking about it. 341 00:22:54,160 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 1: Was by being open about it, by using the media, 342 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,919 Speaker 1: as she saw it, to redress the valance of power 343 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 1: against her husband's family and what she saw as the 344 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: conspiracy of the media against her. And so you have, 345 00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: on the one hand, somebody who believes in shutting everything up, 346 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:14,879 Speaker 1: the Queen, and you've got somebody else called Diana, who 347 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: believes in letting it all hang out. That the famous 348 00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 1: interview with Martin Bashir, which we now know is a 349 00:23:21,520 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: product of the most shady behavior by the BBC, but 350 00:23:25,480 --> 00:23:28,880 Speaker 1: that equally the Princess went along with it because she 351 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 1: recognized she was, in fact a most brilliant media operator. 352 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: Diana made monarchy and made royalty about celebrity. The Queen 353 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:43,160 Speaker 1: has always she's taken the totally opposite view that monarchy 354 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: and celebrity are enemies. They may look the same, they're different. 355 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,399 Speaker 1: So it was really it was what happened between the 356 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,800 Speaker 1: Queen and Diana was I think a genuine tragedy. It 357 00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: was a clash of two different views of right and 358 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,000 Speaker 1: wrong and it was utterly a reckons sign of And 359 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 1: although that what you're saying, I completely understand, some people 360 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: on this side of the pond, if you will, were 361 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: also speculating that that family wasn't happy about the fact that. 362 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:14,359 Speaker 1: And you can explain to me the schematics of this, 363 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: which is that if she divorces Charles, she's still entitled 364 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:23,720 Speaker 1: to a title herself because she has children with him, 365 00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,920 Speaker 1: she's the mother of royal blood. And if she had 366 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:30,720 Speaker 1: married Fired, he would be entitled to a title as well. 367 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:35,239 Speaker 1: Having married her, he would not all of all of 368 00:24:35,280 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 1: that is total fiction. These you are you're quite right 369 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,400 Speaker 1: to put your finger on the issue of divorce. There 370 00:24:41,480 --> 00:24:45,120 Speaker 1: is a profound struggle as to whether or not divorce 371 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: is acceptable. Remember, virtually nobody gets divorced before the nineties. 372 00:24:50,400 --> 00:24:54,360 Speaker 1: It's very difficult to get in Britain, it's virtually impossible. 373 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 1: And what happens is the monarchy in Britain is used 374 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: as a kind of front in that struggle by the 375 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: Church of England. By it's it's astonishingly talented that I 376 00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 1: think rather malign Archbishop Archbishop Cosmo Gordon Lang. It's used 377 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: as a kind of battering ram to wait to keep 378 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 1: the lid on divorce. And again, of course there is 379 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: the whole trauma in the mind of everybody who is royal, 380 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: which is the marriage and the catastrophic marriage which forces 381 00:25:28,920 --> 00:25:32,800 Speaker 1: his abdication of the Queen's uncle of Edward the Eighth 382 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,000 Speaker 1: to the American Mrs Simpson. And it's this idea of 383 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 1: the monarchy and divorce being fundamentally opposed to each other. 384 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,600 Speaker 1: In fact, there was an absolutely no rule against there's 385 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:47,520 Speaker 1: no definite rule against it. It was simply that it 386 00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:51,080 Speaker 1: had become a method of symbolizing the monarchy as the 387 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 1: great virtuous British family. And this is why the Queen 388 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,159 Speaker 1: has experienced so much trauma she with her marriage with 389 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 1: the Duke of Edam. Whatever really happened, we will not 390 00:26:04,040 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: know for generations, I imagine, because of the close of manuscripts, 391 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: But they were always able to present the appearance and 392 00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:19,680 Speaker 1: I think the reality of genuinely happy, creative marriage. Unfortunately 393 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:23,920 Speaker 1: her children couldn't. It. Therefore, very quickly becomes at tension 394 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,680 Speaker 1: between a myth of the monarchy as a happy royal 395 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:32,200 Speaker 1: family and the reality of them as an unhappy family 396 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 1: characterized by a divorce, and of course the marriage and 397 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:40,120 Speaker 1: of Charles and Diana, and it's hideous dissolution becomes, as 398 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: it were, the test case. It becomes the moment at 399 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: which that image is finally blown up author and historian 400 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:54,560 Speaker 1: David Starkey. If you're enjoying this conversation, be sure to 401 00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: subscribe to Here's the Thing on the I Heart Radio app, 402 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. When we 403 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: come back, David Starkey shares his thoughts on where things 404 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: went wrong with Prince Harry and Megan Markle. I'm Alec 405 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: Baldwin and this is Here's the Thing from my Heart Radio. 406 00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: Since royal historian David Starkey has had such a long 407 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,040 Speaker 1: trained I on the monarchy, I was curious if he 408 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:42,040 Speaker 1: foresaw meg'sit, Prince Harry and Megan Markle's exit from the 409 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 1: royal family. No, not at all. I took exactly. I 410 00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: mean the shows who know that that evidence is everything. 411 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 1: The notion of the historian of profit is dangerously wrong. 412 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,040 Speaker 1: I made exactly the wrong guess. I thought that the 413 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:02,320 Speaker 1: marriage to Megan was remarkable. She you know, she's beautiful, 414 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 1: she's intelligent, she's highly disciplined. I mean, he was a 415 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: hair and scare and lad. It looked exactly the right thing. 416 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: And the fact of course that she she has mixed 417 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:18,119 Speaker 1: race in one it's silly to say even better, but 418 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: it expressed a reality of our modern I hate the 419 00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: word multicultural, but which is which is the wrong word. 420 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:30,840 Speaker 1: But but but our doubt the intense diversity of our societies. 421 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: It expressed it beautifully. I in fact, I put the 422 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: phrase about that the marriage of the two of them 423 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 1: was in itself a kind of direct modernization of the monarchy. 424 00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:45,920 Speaker 1: But then, of course it turned out that Megan and 425 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:50,120 Speaker 1: later on Harry decided they wanted to do it, in 426 00:28:50,120 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: the words of Frank Sinatra, their way. Now. Unfortunately, monarchy 427 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: doesn't work like that, and they found themselves in exactly 428 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:02,840 Speaker 1: the same trap as Diana, exactly the same trap as 429 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: Edward the eighth, exactly the same trap that Henry the 430 00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:09,120 Speaker 1: Eighth was in. And remember Henry the Eighth to escape 431 00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,360 Speaker 1: from that trap and to do things that were unthinkable. 432 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 1: He had to break with the Roman Church. He'd to 433 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: tear his family apart, he to tear the country apart. 434 00:29:19,480 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: It is not even then an easy thing to do. 435 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,320 Speaker 1: But of course, because of the power of his personality, 436 00:29:25,560 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: that then power of the monarchy, the inheritance from his 437 00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:30,680 Speaker 1: father and so on, he was able to do it. 438 00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,600 Speaker 1: But of course Megan and Harry found themselves up against 439 00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: this machinery, and they took the decision, Okay, it won't 440 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 1: change to accommodate us, We'll get out. And I think 441 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,280 Speaker 1: it's a profound sadness. But I would also put it 442 00:29:44,280 --> 00:29:46,560 Speaker 1: in a more simple way. I think Gallex, I think 443 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:49,840 Speaker 1: Harry married his mother and told lots of men marry 444 00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:53,480 Speaker 1: their mothers. And Meg Megan is a kind of version 445 00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:56,880 Speaker 1: of Diana. She embodies many of the same instincts, many 446 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: of the same disaurs, and it's very easy to see. 447 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,040 Speaker 1: I think Harry will eventually find his position a very 448 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: lonely one. I mean, he's bought into this boy who 449 00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: was in the army at this boy who loved Soldiering, 450 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: who established a very serious reputation as working for injured 451 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: servicemen and injured veterans and whatever he now finds himself 452 00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:26,640 Speaker 1: in that I think rather empty world of Californian celebrity, 453 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 1: rootless world, the world of the artificiality of Netflix, steels 454 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:36,600 Speaker 1: and so on. I wonder how long he will last. 455 00:30:37,280 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: I I feel the same exact way. I watched the 456 00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,000 Speaker 1: whole thing play out, and I thought, my god, I mean, 457 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: my glib joke was you gave up all of that 458 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,720 Speaker 1: to live in Santa Barbara. I mean, you know, I 459 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,640 Speaker 1: mean all your family and history and duty, and you 460 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 1: were in the military. You understood that kind of service 461 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: and duty, and you gave all that to go live 462 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,360 Speaker 1: over there where. I mean, unlike any other ice I've 463 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: ever visited, someone sticking your thermometer in your mouth to 464 00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,040 Speaker 1: tell you how hot you are every five minutes or 465 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: how hot you're not. And if you're at the top 466 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: of that game, if you're a winner, if all of 467 00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: that business is rolling in your direction, what's what's better 468 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,320 Speaker 1: than that? But once that cools off, boy, it's lonely. 469 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,880 Speaker 1: It's it's the loneliest place in the world. Now, my 470 00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,200 Speaker 1: last question for you, one would assume that as the 471 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 1: public relations fortunes of the royal family ebb and flow 472 00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,960 Speaker 1: and go up and down related to scandal and so forth, 473 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: or perceived scandal. I should say, I think that they've 474 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:37,320 Speaker 1: been treated very unfairly in some circumstances. So the jubilee comes, 475 00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 1: would you say that their stock is up? Would you 476 00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 1: say that the stock is up compared to the Because 477 00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: when when the megan here in the States, the Megan 478 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: Markel thing played out like if not a thick stripe 479 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: of racism exists among some denizens of Bucking Impalace, there's 480 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:57,120 Speaker 1: at least a tinge of that there. And now with 481 00:31:57,240 --> 00:31:59,640 Speaker 1: the jubilee and the focus going back onto the Queen 482 00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: herself are things would you say that they're more popular 483 00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: again in the UK? I think, again, we've got to 484 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 1: be really blunt about this. I think that that statement, 485 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: which was deliberately vague about your somebody said something about 486 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: what the color of the child might have been. I 487 00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 1: think that was an indecent thing to do. I think 488 00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: it was a shocking and disgraceful thing to say because 489 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: it was entirely unspecific and untestable, and it was attributed. 490 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: It was the merest slur. It was the dirtiest thing 491 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: you could do, and frankly I have the lowest opinion 492 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: of the woman who did it. I think it's and 493 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: indeed the man. So let's say that one of the 494 00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: things that is most striking about the Royal family is 495 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:54,600 Speaker 1: how absolutely uncontaminated by racism they are. If you go 496 00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:57,160 Speaker 1: back and you look at the history of the monarchy. 497 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: Really from Victoria, everybody I think is heard of her extraordinary. 498 00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 1: It may even have been a marriage, though it's not 499 00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,680 Speaker 1: quite likely, an extraordinary close relationship with with her Scottish 500 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,640 Speaker 1: gamekeeper with John Brown. The man who succeeds John Brown 501 00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,479 Speaker 1: in Victorious Affections is an Indian servant, the Mucchi. And 502 00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: the relationship of the Royal family with, of course and 503 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,840 Speaker 1: deeply multi ethnic British Empire is one in which there 504 00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: has been a kind of rejoicing in the diversity. And 505 00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: the Queen of Doors Africa spent enormous amounts of time there. 506 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: No she actually learns that she's queen in Kenya and 507 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:37,880 Speaker 1: so on. So I think that that this charge of 508 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,480 Speaker 1: racism is simply a disgraceful slur. I think it also 509 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,280 Speaker 1: again it's very important things play out differently on either 510 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: side of the Atlantic, Megan and Harry were playing the 511 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: American card. They were playing the celebrity, let it all 512 00:33:53,000 --> 00:33:56,600 Speaker 1: hang out, victim, hood, Carl and afraid. In Britain, those 513 00:33:56,640 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: cards don't play quite so well. The general sense in Britain, 514 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: as Harry and Megan turned up very briefly for the 515 00:34:05,440 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: Jubilee and then disappeared very quickly, was well, they're now 516 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: second division. They were first division. They willfully pulled themselves out. 517 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: And you know what, they don't much matter because what 518 00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 1: you saw on the balcony of Buckingham Palace was the Queen, 519 00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: the Queen's son, the Prince of Wales, his son, Prince William, 520 00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,560 Speaker 1: and then Prince William's three children, including two boys. So 521 00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: you have literally a kind of the famous moment in 522 00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: Macbeth where Macbeth sees a line of kings stretching out 523 00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:41,080 Speaker 1: at the end. Well, there was the line of monarchs 524 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: on Buckingham Palace, and there was no Harry and there 525 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,280 Speaker 1: was no Megan. And they don't matter except in Hollywood, 526 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,680 Speaker 1: So you don't despair about the future of the monarchy. 527 00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:54,640 Speaker 1: Will Charles be a good king? I think he probably 528 00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: will be. I think he's a very serious man, arguably 529 00:34:57,840 --> 00:35:00,120 Speaker 1: is a little bit too serious. And again all so 530 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: he's espoused what we always used to regard us through 531 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:07,400 Speaker 1: other silly things like ecology. They're now absolutely central. And 532 00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,400 Speaker 1: my great fear is the opposite that Bibe and Prince 533 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,320 Speaker 1: William is even more vocal on these kinds of questions. Suddenly, 534 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,160 Speaker 1: of course, the whole question of environmentalism is going to be, 535 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,960 Speaker 1: because it's now the forefront of politics, is going to 536 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: be a matter of major political dispute, especially now that 537 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:32,400 Speaker 1: net zero visibly carries very much non net cost in 538 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: the words, it carries huge costs following the the the 539 00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 1: Ukraine War, the rocketing of fuel costs, which is much 540 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: greater in Europe than it is in America. So there 541 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,279 Speaker 1: is a risk that by espousing what is now a 542 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:50,880 Speaker 1: very popular doctrine of ecology, you do store up the 543 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,680 Speaker 1: risk of taking two overt a stance on what is 544 00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: actually a very very definite issue of current politics. But 545 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:00,920 Speaker 1: I know that's too much to worry about. And you 546 00:36:00,920 --> 00:36:04,880 Speaker 1: can see with William and Kate they're like a postcard 547 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,360 Speaker 1: for you almost look at William and Kate and it 548 00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: looks like pictures of Elizabeth and Philip traveling the country. 549 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: They seem like they're born to the role and they 550 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: completely understand what's expected of them. And I think that's right. 551 00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,560 Speaker 1: I mean, again, to put it in you know, more 552 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:23,960 Speaker 1: pr sort of terms. I think the point is that 553 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,400 Speaker 1: both William and especially Kate, they are agree good looking 554 00:36:29,440 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: young people, but they're profoundly conventional. They're happy in their 555 00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:38,440 Speaker 1: skins doing what they're doing. Was of course, poor Harry 556 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:42,919 Speaker 1: was a lost soul. Diana was a lost soul, and 557 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: these two are not. They they are comfortable in enacting 558 00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:49,879 Speaker 1: the role, which is in a sense, you know, it's 559 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 1: a kind of what I mean. You know, you talk 560 00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: about what we talk about Middle America, don't we. I 561 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:58,720 Speaker 1: mean their role is to kind of is to enact 562 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: a kind of Middle British position. It seems to come 563 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: to them naturally comfortably, and they perform it beautifully. My 564 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 1: thanks to you. My my new dream is to come 565 00:37:10,719 --> 00:37:14,080 Speaker 1: over there and interview you live in some theater over there. 566 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,720 Speaker 1: I could listen to you talk for quite a while. 567 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,319 Speaker 1: You are a fascinating man, and you're an incredibly scholarly man, 568 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 1: which I admire. And you've helped me too, because I've 569 00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,440 Speaker 1: always had this fascination with this history. So thank you 570 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,799 Speaker 1: so much, sir for your time, and thanks for coming 571 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: on the show, and thank you historian Dr David Starkey. 572 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: This episode was recorded at c DM Studios and produced 573 00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 1: by Kathleen Russo, Zach McNeice, and Maureen Hoban. Our engineer 574 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:51,240 Speaker 1: is Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingrich. 575 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:54,359 Speaker 1: I'm Alec Baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought to you 576 00:37:54,440 --> 00:38:07,480 Speaker 1: by iHeart Radio four four