1
00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:07,680
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grease.

2
00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,799
Speaker 2: It's on the trial of the so called glam yoga

3
00:00:18,880 --> 00:00:23,200
Speaker 2: instructor is underway now. This is after she flees the

4
00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:27,320
Speaker 2: jurisdiction of Texas, uses the fake passport, her sister's passport

5
00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,800
Speaker 2: to hide out in Costa Rica at a hostel where

6
00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:35,839
Speaker 2: she wants to teach surf yoga, I believe, gets a

7
00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:40,879
Speaker 2: nose job, and then finally is brought home extradited back

8
00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:44,559
Speaker 2: to the US, where she then escapes from the jail again.

9
00:00:46,240 --> 00:00:48,960
Speaker 2: Hey guys, you better make sure she doesn't pull a

10
00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,479
Speaker 2: Bundy and jump out a window at the courthouse and

11
00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,600
Speaker 2: run for it again. This woman will go on the run.

12
00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:02,040
Speaker 2: This will be her what third or fourth time escape authorities. Well,

13
00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:06,440
Speaker 2: yesterday in the courtroom and as we speak now the

14
00:01:06,520 --> 00:01:12,720
Speaker 2: case commencing, we heard opening statements and man, they were something.

15
00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:16,280
Speaker 2: Wait till you hear what the defense had to say

16
00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:18,760
Speaker 2: following the state's opening statement on going to play that

17
00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:25,800
Speaker 2: for you. But we heard about the horrific discovery of

18
00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:32,520
Speaker 2: Moe's body, twenty five year old young woman crushed crumple

19
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:37,200
Speaker 2: between a commode and the wall, and the allegation by

20
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:40,720
Speaker 2: the state that they intend to prove that an angry

21
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:49,360
Speaker 2: lover Katelyn Armstrong stood over her and shot her in

22
00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:57,760
Speaker 2: the heart. Why because the yoga instructor's boyfriend shared a

23
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,120
Speaker 2: hamburger with twenty five year old move. You know what

24
00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:04,480
Speaker 2: I want you to hear it from the horse's mouth.

25
00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,440
Speaker 2: I mean to say, Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank

26
00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:08,920
Speaker 2: you for being with us here at Crime Stories and

27
00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:13,320
Speaker 2: on Serious XM one eleven with no further ado. Let's

28
00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,280
Speaker 2: go in the courtroom. Listen, you're caves.

29
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,840
Speaker 3: She had gone again, blue friend of mammas hand.

30
00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:29,280
Speaker 4: She arrives home and sees Mo on the floor and

31
00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,760
Speaker 4: seize her legs so testify. She thought had been on

32
00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,959
Speaker 4: the stringers ride and laying on the floor stretch and

33
00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:39,880
Speaker 4: relaxing and shells testified. And she gets closer and sees

34
00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:44,960
Speaker 4: blood and freaks out and a nine peour again and

35
00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 4: second being in apartment, she calls nine one.

36
00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,840
Speaker 2: One, and in that nine to one one call, the

37
00:02:54,000 --> 00:03:02,399
Speaker 2: friend says her brain is leaking. Her brain is leaking.

38
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,360
Speaker 2: I'm surprised this young girl even had the wherewithal to

39
00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:11,239
Speaker 2: speak after finding what she found. With an all star

40
00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:15,919
Speaker 2: panel joining me outside the courthouse, Tony Plaatski, investigative reporter

41
00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:19,639
Speaker 2: with the Austin American Statesman as well as kV UE.

42
00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 2: Those opening statements were bombshells, Tony Plaatski, How was the

43
00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,040
Speaker 2: jury responding, Nancy?

44
00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:33,120
Speaker 5: You could see they were visibly struck by the opening statements,

45
00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 5: and as you mentioned, testimony from a young woman named

46
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:39,640
Speaker 5: Caitlin Cash, she is the one who discovered her friend's

47
00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 5: body in her own home. But during opening statements, you

48
00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,320
Speaker 5: could absolutely see that the jurors were sitting on the

49
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:52,320
Speaker 5: edge of their seat as prosecutors unfurled what they described

50
00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,960
Speaker 5: themselves as a mountain of evidence, some of which has

51
00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:58,880
Speaker 5: been in the public space, Nancy, but some of which

52
00:03:58,960 --> 00:04:02,240
Speaker 5: we were all here for the first time. People were

53
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:03,600
Speaker 5: sitting on the ope.

54
00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:05,360
Speaker 2: Oh tell me, tell me, why did you hear for

55
00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:06,560
Speaker 2: the first time, Tony, So.

56
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:11,400
Speaker 5: Nancy, for the first time, investigators described in court and

57
00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,240
Speaker 5: prosecutors described in court how Caitlin Armstrong, they say, knew

58
00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,800
Speaker 5: exactly where Mariah Wilson was, that she had access to

59
00:04:21,000 --> 00:04:27,719
Speaker 5: messages that were being transmitted between Colin Strickland and Mariah Wilson.

60
00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:31,800
Speaker 5: And in those messages, Mariah Wilson Moe said, I am

61
00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:33,839
Speaker 5: staying at this exact address.

62
00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:39,760
Speaker 2: Aha, We've been wondering how she knew exactly where Mariah was.

63
00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,960
Speaker 2: Mariah Mo. Take a listener, our cut one seventy five.

64
00:04:43,400 --> 00:04:47,440
Speaker 2: This is the prosecutor Rick Jomes. Listen, we're gonna give

65
00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:48,960
Speaker 2: you back round college.

66
00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:54,440
Speaker 6: I see.

67
00:04:57,480 --> 00:05:17,440
Speaker 3: Nat, I'm a freeze as a result of their business. Sure,

68
00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:19,720
Speaker 3: I think I loved laptop.

69
00:05:20,440 --> 00:05:24,640
Speaker 4: It was connected to Tom's phone, his highness from his

70
00:05:24,760 --> 00:05:26,599
Speaker 4: phone on those.

71
00:05:28,760 --> 00:05:35,080
Speaker 2: As what he didn't know, Tony Blatsky, that she could see,

72
00:05:35,480 --> 00:05:38,599
Speaker 2: for instance, my iPad is connected to my iPhone, is

73
00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,599
Speaker 2: connected to my laptop, is connected to the Mini van.

74
00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,920
Speaker 2: If I order from Instacart on my iPad, it pops

75
00:05:47,000 --> 00:05:49,680
Speaker 2: up on my iPhone. Gotta be careful at Christmas time

76
00:05:49,800 --> 00:05:52,440
Speaker 2: because when I charge something on Amazon, it pops up

77
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:55,840
Speaker 2: for some reason, on my son's iPhone, so you can

78
00:05:55,920 --> 00:06:00,200
Speaker 2: see what I'm buying leading up to Christmas. Is that

79
00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:04,799
Speaker 2: he didn't realize the devices were interconnected, Tony Plaetsky, Well.

80
00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:07,800
Speaker 5: There was no statement about what he did or did

81
00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:10,360
Speaker 5: not know, but I think it sufficed to say that

82
00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,760
Speaker 5: he did not recognize or realize that Kitlin Armstrong was

83
00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:19,159
Speaker 5: surveilling his communication. And what we do know in this

84
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:23,400
Speaker 5: was stated by prosecutors yesterday, is that earlier in the year,

85
00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,920
Speaker 5: in twenty twenty two, he was so concerned about Kaitlyn

86
00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:31,160
Speaker 5: Armstrong knowing that he was having ongoing conversations with Moe Wilson,

87
00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,800
Speaker 5: that he actually changed Wilson's name in his phone so

88
00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,640
Speaker 5: that if they were texting back and forth and Armstrong

89
00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:41,719
Speaker 5: saw Moe Wilson's name pop up, she would not realize

90
00:06:42,000 --> 00:06:43,680
Speaker 5: that's who he was talking to.

91
00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:48,159
Speaker 2: So he changed Mo Wilson's name in his devices and

92
00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:53,039
Speaker 2: all of his devices to Christine Walls to secret his

93
00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:59,360
Speaker 2: communications with Moe Wilson. He says, after he and Moe dated,

94
00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 2: the eight remained friends. Okay to doctor Bethany Marshall, high

95
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,960
Speaker 2: profile psycho Anne was joining us out of La Doctor Bethany,

96
00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,600
Speaker 2: if you have to surveil the one you love, you

97
00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:15,239
Speaker 2: need a knew relationship. It is not necessarily you. Maybe

98
00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,520
Speaker 2: it's them, maybe they're cheating and you feel it but

99
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,240
Speaker 2: you don't know it, so you have to check up

100
00:07:20,280 --> 00:07:21,800
Speaker 2: on them all the time, you know what, It's just

101
00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,800
Speaker 2: that's too much trouble. If I had to figure out

102
00:07:24,800 --> 00:07:27,240
Speaker 2: where David Lynch is every time, every hour of the

103
00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:28,800
Speaker 2: day and night, I gave crazy.

104
00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,120
Speaker 7: In terms of Armstrong, it could fall into two categories.

105
00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:36,440
Speaker 7: In terms of motivation, one could be situational. Situational would

106
00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:39,360
Speaker 7: be that she knows he's a cheater, he's a philander,

107
00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:43,560
Speaker 7: there's evidence he flirts with other girls in front of her.

108
00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:48,200
Speaker 7: Or it could be characterological, meaning she's very disturbed and

109
00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:52,760
Speaker 7: she has pathological envy and jealousy. And even if you

110
00:07:52,800 --> 00:07:55,720
Speaker 7: as pure as the driven snow, she would check up

111
00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:57,880
Speaker 7: and check up. And these are the kind of people

112
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:01,320
Speaker 7: Nancy horce stalkers. This sounds like stalking to me. She

113
00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:04,040
Speaker 7: was stalking him. Just called what it is, stalking him

114
00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,040
Speaker 7: and she was stalking Moe and she put enormous energy

115
00:08:08,080 --> 00:08:08,480
Speaker 7: into this.

116
00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,480
Speaker 2: To Tony Plohetski joining us outside the courthouse, tell me

117
00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:18,160
Speaker 2: about the room that the friend where Moe was staying

118
00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,320
Speaker 2: her coming home and finding Mariah did it.

119
00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 5: Was this really wrenching testimony, and there was complete silence

120
00:08:27,800 --> 00:08:33,240
Speaker 5: in the courtroom as she described coming home initially seeing

121
00:08:34,840 --> 00:08:37,360
Speaker 5: well she first of all, she had leftovers and her

122
00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:40,000
Speaker 5: cell phone, and she describes kind of dropping them as

123
00:08:40,000 --> 00:08:43,240
Speaker 5: she as she entered her home and Nancy, just to

124
00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,240
Speaker 5: describe it a little further. We're talking about a back house,

125
00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:48,760
Speaker 5: like a garage apartment behind another home.

126
00:08:48,880 --> 00:08:54,480
Speaker 2: Okay, slow down, slow down, a garage apartment behind another house.

127
00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:55,559
Speaker 2: Is that what you just said?

128
00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:56,480
Speaker 5: That is correct?

129
00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,880
Speaker 2: Okay? And before that you were saying she swapped something out?

130
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:03,839
Speaker 2: What did she swap out? This is the friend coming home,

131
00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:05,280
Speaker 2: Caitlin cash yees.

132
00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:08,800
Speaker 5: She So she has leftovers and her cell phone that

133
00:09:08,880 --> 00:09:14,120
Speaker 5: she actually drops on the counter as she's walking into

134
00:09:14,360 --> 00:09:18,720
Speaker 5: her home. Then she sees her friend lying on the

135
00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:22,520
Speaker 5: bathroom floor, and she has a couple of thoughts.

136
00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 2: She can say that from the entryway exactly.

137
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,640
Speaker 5: We're talking about a very very small dwelling, and she

138
00:09:29,400 --> 00:09:32,640
Speaker 5: has a couple of thoughts. Number one, maybe she's just

139
00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:36,400
Speaker 5: had a hard workout and she's she's doing some stretching.

140
00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:39,600
Speaker 5: Another thought is that it was so hot. She she

141
00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:44,280
Speaker 5: wondered if if her friend Moe was was hot and

142
00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:49,120
Speaker 5: was lying on the bathroom tile to try to cool off.

143
00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,959
Speaker 5: But she's saying hello, I'm home, how's it going, and

144
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:58,160
Speaker 5: was getting no response. So she goes over urgently to

145
00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:03,560
Speaker 5: the bathroom and and realizes that that Moe is is

146
00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:07,000
Speaker 5: very much not okay. She doesn't describe in that moment

147
00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:11,880
Speaker 5: that she sees that she's been shot, but upon closer

148
00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:16,080
Speaker 5: inspection of her friend, she then sees that there is

149
00:10:16,120 --> 00:10:19,440
Speaker 5: blood everywhere, and that is when she called ninety one.

150
00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:35,280
Speaker 1: One Prime Stories with Nancy Grace.

151
00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,280
Speaker 2: Tonny, perhaps, can you say she sees that there is

152
00:10:40,400 --> 00:10:44,920
Speaker 2: blood anywhere? Those were your words? Where where did the

153
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,679
Speaker 2: room the friend? She's also named Caitlin Caitlyn Cash, So

154
00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:51,600
Speaker 2: I'm just going to call her the friend? Where did

155
00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:53,400
Speaker 2: the friend see blood?

156
00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:58,800
Speaker 5: She just described this pool of blood, but she can't

157
00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:04,840
Speaker 5: apparently ascertain in that moment that her friend Moe has

158
00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:08,680
Speaker 5: been shot. She just knows that there's blood everywhere. She

159
00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,480
Speaker 5: actually at that point picks up her phone, it gets

160
00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,280
Speaker 5: her phone and calls nine to one one, and she's

161
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:19,680
Speaker 5: saying to the nine to one one operator, I can't

162
00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:21,760
Speaker 5: I don't know what's wrong with her, but but there's

163
00:11:21,800 --> 00:11:23,760
Speaker 5: blood everywhere. There's blood everywhere.

164
00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,720
Speaker 2: How can that be too? Justseph Scott Morgan's joining me.

165
00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:31,280
Speaker 2: Professor Forensicks, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My

166
00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:34,600
Speaker 2: Feet on Amazon, star of a hitting the series Body

167
00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:38,080
Speaker 2: Bags with Joe Scott Morgan, Joe Scott, Hagem Mariah be

168
00:11:38,720 --> 00:11:41,040
Speaker 2: lying there, and we know she was lying flat, not

169
00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,880
Speaker 2: crunched up in a triangle, because when the friend comes home,

170
00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:49,160
Speaker 2: she sees her legs split out on the ground, so

171
00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:54,440
Speaker 2: we know she's lying flatish curved from behind that between

172
00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:57,839
Speaker 2: the commode and the wall. How could she not see

173
00:11:57,920 --> 00:11:59,160
Speaker 2: that she was shot?

174
00:11:59,800 --> 00:12:02,520
Speaker 8: Well, may have seen it, but her brain is not registering,

175
00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:05,320
Speaker 8: you know, what she's taking in at this moment in

176
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:08,360
Speaker 8: Tom Nancy I. You know, over the course of my

177
00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:12,959
Speaker 8: career interviewing people that actually discover bodies like this, they

178
00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,120
Speaker 8: only see things in flash as many times, and it

179
00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:18,960
Speaker 8: takes a little bit of time for them to kind

180
00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:21,840
Speaker 8: of let this data kind of seep down through their brain.

181
00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,080
Speaker 8: So when they're giving that initial statement to the police,

182
00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:29,120
Speaker 8: it may not be it doesn't necessarily marry up every

183
00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,520
Speaker 8: single time with what CSI sees when they go out

184
00:12:32,559 --> 00:12:34,840
Speaker 8: to the crime scene and they have their time to

185
00:12:34,880 --> 00:12:39,240
Speaker 8: take this. Keep in mind, this young woman, this murder victim,

186
00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:42,360
Speaker 8: is her friend, and all she wants to do is

187
00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:46,920
Speaker 8: render aid. She's not thinking, as far as you know,

188
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,240
Speaker 8: trying to understand what the dynamics are here. All she

189
00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:54,319
Speaker 8: knows is that she sees blood and she sees injuries.

190
00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,520
Speaker 8: And I think that you'll probably get into that, but

191
00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:00,480
Speaker 8: the reality is this, she just wants to her aid

192
00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 8: to this young woman. She can't really give an assessment

193
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:04,319
Speaker 8: at that moment, Tom.

194
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,479
Speaker 2: Did she actually say, Tony Plahsky her brain is leaking.

195
00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:11,920
Speaker 5: In her new call to nine one one. She did

196
00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:12,840
Speaker 5: make that statement.

197
00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:13,320
Speaker 9: She did.

198
00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:17,040
Speaker 10: And this is at a moment when she's also being

199
00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:21,920
Speaker 10: instructed excuse me to do chess compressions by the nine

200
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,800
Speaker 10: to one one operator. And you can hear over and

201
00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:30,720
Speaker 10: over and over the friend is counting as she is

202
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,320
Speaker 10: doing these chess compressions. I think she gets up to

203
00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,760
Speaker 10: eighty before EMS arrives. And she's becoming more and more

204
00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:43,640
Speaker 10: distraught as this is all sinking into her and she

205
00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:52,360
Speaker 10: is realizing and recognizing the absolute terror that has transpired.

206
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,920
Speaker 8: And Nancy, if I could just if I could just

207
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,880
Speaker 8: add real quickly, as she's doing these chess compressions, this

208
00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:01,439
Speaker 8: is the first time she will have actually been able

209
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:04,640
Speaker 8: to kind of eyeball mo at this point in time.

210
00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:07,599
Speaker 8: I mean, like up close and personal, think about chest compressions.

211
00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:10,280
Speaker 8: You might be about eighteen inches away from their face

212
00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,079
Speaker 8: and you're looking down at them. You know, one of

213
00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,400
Speaker 8: the rules with doing CPR is you get them flat

214
00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,040
Speaker 8: on their back. You're doing chest compressions, and a lot

215
00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:22,720
Speaker 8: of things happen when this occurs. When you're pressing down

216
00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:26,040
Speaker 8: on the chest. You're going to see blood that begins

217
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,040
Speaker 8: to emanate from the body if you have a defect

218
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:32,800
Speaker 8: or hole, a bullet hole. And also she would notice

219
00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,280
Speaker 8: at this moment time this is what we call extrusion.

220
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,520
Speaker 8: You see this extruding brain matter that's coming out of

221
00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,440
Speaker 8: these defects or bullet holes in her head, and it

222
00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:43,520
Speaker 8: would have been quite ghastly. I don't notice how she

223
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:44,360
Speaker 8: made sense of it.

224
00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:51,000
Speaker 2: I'm curious why there was brain fluid and or blood

225
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,960
Speaker 2: coming from her head if she was only shot in

226
00:14:56,120 --> 00:14:58,720
Speaker 2: the heart. Hold on, I'm going to come back to

227
00:14:58,760 --> 00:15:01,000
Speaker 2: you on that. Tony Plantski. You me outside the courthouse

228
00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,280
Speaker 2: right now with kV Ue and the Austin American Statesman

229
00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:09,360
Speaker 2: Alan Bennett joining me. Renowned lawyer, former prosecutor partner at

230
00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:12,920
Speaker 2: Gunter Bennett and anthis Alan, thank you for being with

231
00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:17,560
Speaker 2: us and all your time prosecuting. Very often witnesses don't

232
00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:23,160
Speaker 2: know what they're seeing or hearing they hear gunshots since

233
00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,480
Speaker 2: I go, oh, that was a fire, that was a

234
00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:29,920
Speaker 2: car backfiring, because it's not within their realm of understanding.

235
00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:32,240
Speaker 2: They're not used to hearing gunshots, they're not used to

236
00:15:32,280 --> 00:15:35,680
Speaker 2: seeing Mariah on the floor dead, die with her brain

237
00:15:35,800 --> 00:15:40,280
Speaker 2: quote leaking. So your mind leaps to what you know,

238
00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:42,680
Speaker 2: what you're used to. That's not unusual.

239
00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:45,080
Speaker 9: Absolutely, Nancy, and once again, thank you very much for

240
00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:47,440
Speaker 9: having me on your program. I appreciate you opportunity to

241
00:15:47,440 --> 00:15:50,200
Speaker 9: be here, and having been a former prosecutor yourself and

242
00:15:50,560 --> 00:15:54,000
Speaker 9: your illustrious career, you are well aware more than I

243
00:15:54,080 --> 00:16:00,000
Speaker 9: that eyewitness testimony in cases is the least revivable evidence

244
00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:03,200
Speaker 9: that a jury often has. We tend to put so

245
00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 9: much weight on it. We tend to think of it

246
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 9: as the gold standard of evidence in a criminal case,

247
00:16:08,600 --> 00:16:11,480
Speaker 9: but studies have shown time and time again eyewitness testimony

248
00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,240
Speaker 9: is actually the least reliable evidence that a jury often has.

249
00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,960
Speaker 9: For people see a traffic accident, you'll have four different

250
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 9: versions of how that accident occurred, and as you well know,

251
00:16:22,320 --> 00:16:25,120
Speaker 9: that's just something prossers and defense arns always have to

252
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,560
Speaker 9: deal with. And absolutely I agree with you that when

253
00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 9: someone is in that unfamiliar territory, in that situation that

254
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 9: is completely outside of their realm of experiences. I agree

255
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,880
Speaker 9: with the doctor. Your brain will try to fill in

256
00:16:39,960 --> 00:16:41,840
Speaker 9: the gaps. Your brain will try to fill in the

257
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:46,200
Speaker 9: missing pieces of what the eyes are processing.

258
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:48,800
Speaker 7: Do you know, Nancy, one of the missing pieces would

259
00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:54,280
Speaker 7: be who entered the house, who shot her friend? And

260
00:16:54,640 --> 00:16:57,160
Speaker 7: is she safe? Is the roommate safe?

261
00:16:57,240 --> 00:17:00,160
Speaker 2: Apparently she was not concerned at all about her her

262
00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,760
Speaker 2: own safety at that time. Is you can hear on

263
00:17:02,760 --> 00:17:05,879
Speaker 2: the nine on one call, all she's doing is trying

264
00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,800
Speaker 2: to save Mariah. Take a listen to our cup one

265
00:17:08,960 --> 00:17:11,160
Speaker 2: eight eight. This is the prosecutor she put.

266
00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,720
Speaker 4: And the nine one one operator had doing chess compressions

267
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:17,879
Speaker 4: to her friends.

268
00:17:20,800 --> 00:17:21,720
Speaker 3: Can tell you she didn't know.

269
00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:22,880
Speaker 2: Ye that she was here.

270
00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:37,000
Speaker 11: But listen or not, you're your test most thanks, closest friends.

271
00:17:37,160 --> 00:17:41,720
Speaker 3: Chess about eighty times from eighty to ten minutes until

272
00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:42,440
Speaker 3: the first.

273
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:43,439
Speaker 4: Was found of showing up and took on.

274
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,919
Speaker 2: Joining me right now. IRV. Brandt, Senior Inspector, US Marshal

275
00:17:48,960 --> 00:17:54,639
Speaker 2: Service International, also Chief Inspector, Department of Justice, Office International Affairs,

276
00:17:54,760 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 2: Author of Solo Shot, Curse of the bluestone and flying

277
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,679
Speaker 2: solo top of the world. Herv Brandt. I'm just trying

278
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:08,359
Speaker 2: to reconcile all the photos that we have seen of

279
00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:13,240
Speaker 2: Caitlin Armstrong, the so called glam yoga teacher, so consumed

280
00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:19,040
Speaker 2: by jealousy and bitterness over the fact that her boyfriend

281
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,120
Speaker 2: is still in communications with an ex. Not that they're

282
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 2: necessarily cheating right now, I don't know that, but that

283
00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 2: they're talking, that they text back and forth, that they're

284
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:32,160
Speaker 2: meeting for a Hamburger, that they're going to go swimming together.

285
00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,240
Speaker 2: So consumed. Instead of just going, you know what, I've

286
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:37,040
Speaker 2: had it. I don't want to live this way. I'm

287
00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,800
Speaker 2: breaking up. She continues to stalk as doctor Bethany Marshall

288
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:47,440
Speaker 2: told us continues to spy, follows him, catches every communication,

289
00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:51,639
Speaker 2: even though he now has Mariah Wilson listed under a

290
00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:57,119
Speaker 2: completely different name. When you see her in court or

291
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,959
Speaker 2: when you see here all glammed up, it's hard to

292
00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 2: imagine this is the one they had to try it

293
00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,439
Speaker 2: down to Costa Rica that then escaped from sheriffs and

294
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,680
Speaker 2: who was accused of standing over Mariah and shooting her

295
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:09,800
Speaker 2: in the heart.

296
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:15,360
Speaker 6: Sometimes jerrys can't believe what you see, Nancy, and I

297
00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,359
Speaker 6: would defer to doctor Bethany. I'm sure she has clinical

298
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 6: terms for it. We would just call it crazy.

299
00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 2: But I'm saying you have found people all over the

300
00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:31,760
Speaker 2: world as us Marshall, and they come off as so friendly, affable, intelligent,

301
00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,439
Speaker 2: in this case glamorous. But that's not It's like us.

302
00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,960
Speaker 2: A lizard is under their skin. That's not who they are.

303
00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:44,160
Speaker 6: No, I agree. When she went down to Costa Rica,

304
00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:48,960
Speaker 6: she assumed a whole new persona. The people that were

305
00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:54,240
Speaker 6: interviewed that, you know, talk to police that she was

306
00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 6: very normal.

307
00:19:56,160 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, really normal. She was like, that's not my birthday

308
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:02,920
Speaker 2: eight Yeah, I didn't have that botox and ran out

309
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 2: on the bill. That's not my warrant. When she slipped

310
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,399
Speaker 2: through their fingers to Tony Ploheitski, tell me what happened

311
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,280
Speaker 2: in court when the nine to one one call was

312
00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:15,960
Speaker 2: played where the friend Caitlin Cash was trying to revive

313
00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 2: Mariah on the floor.

314
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 5: First of all, you could hear a pin drop in

315
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 5: in the courtroom. I mean even among among journalists who

316
00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:27,640
Speaker 5: were typing frantically on their keyboard. Much of that ceased

317
00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,960
Speaker 5: as this was happening. You could look at the jurors

318
00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 5: and you could see the pain on their on their faces.

319
00:20:36,280 --> 00:20:40,959
Speaker 5: Some of them were wiping away tears, and the friend

320
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,720
Speaker 5: on the stand was was was crying obviously as this

321
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 5: tape was being played. I did think it was was

322
00:20:51,800 --> 00:20:56,560
Speaker 5: absolutely of note that knowing this, that this tape, this

323
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,520
Speaker 5: audio was going to be was going to be played

324
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,960
Speaker 5: in core or Mo Wilson's family, most of them exited

325
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,600
Speaker 5: the court room prior to that, but you could see

326
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,720
Speaker 5: other friends of hers who similarly remained in court, and they,

327
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,160
Speaker 5: much like some of the jurors, were wiping away tears

328
00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 5: and you could hear audible crying in the courtroom.

329
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:21,960
Speaker 2: Man, that's a bad sign if the other side has

330
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:27,800
Speaker 2: the jury crying. Uh uh oh? What was question? What

331
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:32,359
Speaker 2: was the defendant, Caitlyn Armstrong doing during this?

332
00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 5: A little difficult to see from from my vantage point,

333
00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:41,240
Speaker 5: but you know she had her back to the crowd,

334
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:47,040
Speaker 5: and unfortunately cameras were not trained on her face.

335
00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,679
Speaker 2: And in that moment, can you tell me what the

336
00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,080
Speaker 2: defense was doing while the nine one one was playing?

337
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:56,320
Speaker 2: Were they just sitting there taking notes? You remember how

338
00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,480
Speaker 2: oj Simps would just sit there and take notes during

339
00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:01,119
Speaker 2: the most gruesome testimony. It's like, I don't know what

340
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:04,480
Speaker 2: they're talking about. That's not me. Just take notes, doodled

341
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:06,120
Speaker 2: what what was he doing?

342
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:10,520
Speaker 5: They were sitting solemnly at at the defense table, but

343
00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:14,920
Speaker 5: but not not showing any sort of of real, visible

344
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,080
Speaker 5: visible emotion.

345
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 2: Guys, we are trying to determine how the whole evening

346
00:22:21,520 --> 00:22:26,199
Speaker 2: went down. But I want you to hear what the

347
00:22:26,640 --> 00:22:30,480
Speaker 2: defense has to say in their opening statement. Take a

348
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,000
Speaker 2: listen to hour two zero eight.

349
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:35,919
Speaker 3: You will also hear from experts, and I want you

350
00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,960
Speaker 3: to listen when those experts.

351
00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 5: Tell you DNA reporting can mean very.

352
00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 8: Little, and ballistic science isn't a science at all, and it's.

353
00:22:48,280 --> 00:22:51,600
Speaker 4: Not highly regarded by members of the general science.

354
00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 3: There's an evidence that it's not highly go about general science,

355
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,560
Speaker 3: beauty just because you can find one or some people

356
00:22:59,600 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 3: to say that.

357
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:02,240
Speaker 5: Judge, these are opening remarks.

358
00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 4: This is slope, expect gets shows heart.

359
00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:07,720
Speaker 6: Thanks for.

360
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,760
Speaker 2: Okay, that cut out on me at the end. But

361
00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 2: I did hear the defense. The defense is, you know,

362
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:23,360
Speaker 2: DNA can mean very little and ballistic science, well, that's

363
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: not science at all. What is he talking about? There

364
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:34,520
Speaker 2: have been decades gone into ballistic matches. They're like a fingerprint.

365
00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,880
Speaker 2: If they weren't, I would not bother bringing them into court.

366
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 2: You don't want to bring something into court and have

367
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,880
Speaker 2: an attacked on cross exam and lose all the credibility,

368
00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 2: and then you lose credibility. Nobody believes a thing you're

369
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: saying anymore because you've tried to pull something over on

370
00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: the jury. Just don't do it. Ballistics is like a fingerprint.

371
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,920
Speaker 2: Once a bullet goes down the barrel, it is forever

372
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 2: indelibly marked with the interior of that barrel. It's a fingerprint,

373
00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: a ballistic fingerprint. There's no other like it in DNA.

374
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,719
Speaker 2: Who is this guy? But I guess practically speaking, Tony Blohetski,

375
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,080
Speaker 2: what else can he say?

376
00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 5: Well, as I said Nancy yesterday, going into opening statements yesterday,

377
00:24:20,680 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 5: a big question is what is going to be the defense?

378
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,639
Speaker 5: We were all on the edge of our seats. Are

379
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 5: they going to try to blame someone else? How are

380
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 5: they going to cast this? And essentially the defense attorney,

381
00:24:33,600 --> 00:24:38,560
Speaker 5: Jeoffrey Currier's former judge here in Austin, former prosecutor here

382
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 5: in the Austin area, stood up and said that this

383
00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:45,880
Speaker 5: is all just a pile of circumstantial evidence. He went

384
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 5: as far as to say that his client, Caitlin Armstrong,

385
00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,720
Speaker 5: has been trapped in a nightmare of circumstantial evidence for

386
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 5: a year and a half.

387
00:24:53,920 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: Boo, who she's trapped in a nightmare of circumstantial evidence. Okay,

388
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,760
Speaker 2: let me ask you this about the vehicle that was

389
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: circling what turned out to be the murder scene. Tell

390
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: me about the evidence that they discussed in opening statements

391
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:19,480
Speaker 2: about that being Caitlyn Armstrong's car that was circling the

392
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: murder scene.

393
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 5: Number one, That is how they got on to Kitlyn Armstrong,

394
00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 5: that they were able to identify the vehicle, particular characteristics

395
00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,400
Speaker 5: on the vehicle, including a bike rack. That's number one.

396
00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:39,639
Speaker 5: Then they traced that car to her house. Number two

397
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,679
Speaker 5: was the search warrant that they served on the house

398
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:48,359
Speaker 5: where they recovered that nine millimeter pistol that Matt Shellcasing

399
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:52,359
Speaker 5: found at the scene. Number three and this is new Nancy.

400
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:57,119
Speaker 5: Nobody knew this until yesterday. They recovered, according to prosecutors,

401
00:25:57,400 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 5: DNA from a bicycle that No Wilson's bicycle that was

402
00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 5: found in some bushes. Guess who's DNA. According to prosecutors

403
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:10,040
Speaker 5: was on the handlebars and on the seat Caitlyn Armstrong.

404
00:26:10,160 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: Kitlyn Armstrong's why it is her DNA on the murder

405
00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 2: murder victims bike? Take a listen our cut one eight nine.

406
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,120
Speaker 2: The prosecutor found DNA on the hem.

407
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 4: Of bars high categories was the lowest falmerly phone and

408
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 4: very strong like how they do the day you will

409
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 4: find she'll testify that the DNA on the hell of bars,

410
00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 4: Tom and the DNA we who testified that goss of

411
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:43,360
Speaker 4: the DNA on the seat of the bike, that there's

412
00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:46,919
Speaker 4: a very strong like a hood that the DNA on

413
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 4: the seat of the bike included DNA from Katon Armstrong

414
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:51,640
Speaker 4: very strong, highest.

415
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 2: Category Tunny Bladetski. What does the states theory as to

416
00:26:54,200 --> 00:26:58,160
Speaker 2: how they defend at the yoga teachers DNA got on

417
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: the murder victims bike? Why did that happen?

418
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 5: There's no explanation that the defense offered as to why

419
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 5: Kaitlin Armstrong's DNA would be on that bicycle and then Nancy.

420
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 5: In addition to that newly released at least publicly DNA evidence,

421
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 5: there is also this trove, according to prosecutors, of digital

422
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:28,760
Speaker 5: evidence that places Caitlin Armstrong at the crime scene that

423
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 5: places her, you know, in Costa Rica, doing Google searches

424
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 5: on herself after she fled to Rica. According to police,

425
00:27:39,480 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 5: just prosecutors went through this mountain of digital evidence that

426
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 5: they have gained over the past year and a half.

427
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 2: I love digital evidence. Can we get back to the

428
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: state's theory as to why the yoga teacher Caitlin Armstrong's

429
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: DNA is on them murder victim Mariah Wilson's bike, on

430
00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 2: the handlebars and on the seat of the murder victim's bike.

431
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,360
Speaker 2: Why is it there? According to the state.

432
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 5: The state contends that Caitlin Armstrong moved this bike after

433
00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 5: shooting and killing Moe Wilson. They did not describe why

434
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 5: she may have done that, whether or not it was

435
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,520
Speaker 5: just a pure act of vengeance to throw her bike

436
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 5: and some bushes, or whether or not she could have

437
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:35,439
Speaker 5: possibly tried to make them look like some sort of

438
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:37,879
Speaker 5: burglary gone gone wrong.

439
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:42,480
Speaker 2: Ah. Okay, yes, I see what you're saying now, setting

440
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 2: it up to be a burglary gone wrong. Okay? Joining

441
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,400
Speaker 2: me Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensicks, Jacksonville State University, and

442
00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: author Jump in Joe Scott, how did her DNA get

443
00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 2: on that bike seat and the handlebars? Obviously the handlebars

444
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 2: she must have gripped them and picked it up by

445
00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: the seat.

446
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,800
Speaker 8: Yeah she did. And guess what, Nancy, I don't believe

447
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 8: that this is what we traditionally refer to as touch DNA,

448
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,320
Speaker 8: you know where we're sloughing dead skin cells. This is

449
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 8: what I believe. I believe that this is probably a

450
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 8: deposition of DNA. That means a depositive DNA on the

451
00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 8: seat and the handlebars that came off of the alleged

452
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 8: perpetrator's hands as a result of sweat.

453
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 2: You know, you are incredible because guess what I just

454
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: wrote down?

455
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 8: What's up?

456
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: Avery? Avery? Stephen Avery, the star making a murderer who killed?

457
00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,200
Speaker 2: Yes he did. He murdered a photographer, a young girl

458
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 2: in her twenties, Teresa Halbach, and his sweat DNA was

459
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 2: found in her car. Tell me about it, Joe Scott,

460
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:51,360
Speaker 2: how does that work?

461
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:56,800
Speaker 8: Well, here's the thing. Sweat is not. Let's see, it's

462
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 8: it's not as DNA rich as say, for instance, you

463
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:02,240
Speaker 8: know what we would want would be blood, obviously, right,

464
00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 8: But you're going to get You're going to get cellular

465
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 8: DNA out of sweat that is going to be much

466
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 8: more rich. Okay, so that means that you're not going

467
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 8: to have to go back and for so we don't

468
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 8: get off in the waves. Technically you're not going to

469
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 8: have to do as many replications say, for instance, if

470
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 8: you're just talking about touch DNA, that's from you only

471
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 8: have a partial strand with dead skin cells. That's not

472
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,520
Speaker 8: what you're looking at. That's why this is such such

473
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 8: a momentous discovery by the police. I find it curious

474
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,520
Speaker 8: that they were able to because my understanding is when

475
00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 8: they and you know, maybe you guys can correct me

476
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 8: on this, this bike was actually found over in the bushes.

477
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,800
Speaker 8: It's not like it was just kind of standing alone.

478
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 8: The fact that they were able to process this this

479
00:30:55,040 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 8: bicycle so well under harsh conditions, and we're talking about

480
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,000
Speaker 8: Austin in the summertime, Nancy, and you know what it's

481
00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 8: like down there. They were able to recover that DNA

482
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 8: off of these surfaces. That gives you an indication is

483
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 8: how much the how rich this deposition is, and they

484
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 8: were able to tie it back to her. I would

485
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,520
Speaker 8: imagine at some point in time when they were able

486
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 8: to hook her up on charges and when they finally

487
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 8: had her, you know, corralled somewhere, they did a buckle

488
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 8: mucosal swab on her. They took a you know, they

489
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 8: took a scraping of her inner cheek cells, and they

490
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,240
Speaker 8: were able to compare it because look, they're looking for

491
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 8: any kind of DNA that is not commonly associated with

492
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 8: that crime scene. So that gives me an indication that

493
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:43,440
Speaker 8: they've done a very thorough.

494
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 1: Job crime stories with Nancy Grace.

495
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 2: I want to talk about the stalking aspect of this,

496
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 2: and I think that's best done not by me, but

497
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,280
Speaker 2: by the prosecutor. In our one eight six, you are

498
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 2: hearing the opening statement.

499
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 4: Listen, you would learn that at eight thirty seven pm,

500
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 4: one minute out she opened that door. Kay longstom jeeps

501
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:24,600
Speaker 4: say you're going through that app.

502
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 3: One minute?

503
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,239
Speaker 2: I sure, can they do it? One minute later?

504
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 5: Set on app.

505
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 4: You can see that on video sipads.

506
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 5: Kind of names, I mean thirty six, eight.

507
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:42,560
Speaker 4: Thirty seven, eight thirty eight, probably a few blocks away.

508
00:32:42,800 --> 00:32:49,240
Speaker 4: Take you fear all that from witness now. Mom sends

509
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,240
Speaker 4: her last message out at nine thirteen pm.

510
00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 3: She said a text message to.

511
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,800
Speaker 2: A podcast I guess that's part of that mountain of

512
00:32:56,800 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence that has had Caitlin Armstrong try and a

513
00:33:00,680 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 2: nightmare of circumstantial evidence for a year and a half

514
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: because Alan Bennett. This place is her in her vehicle,

515
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: Katelin Armstrong's jeep, the victim, Mariah comes in, she goes in,

516
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 2: and we know the timing because the house where she's

517
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,480
Speaker 2: staying at her friend's house doesn't have a traditional key

518
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 2: and has I guess a code, It has a different

519
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: way to get in that's electronically chronicled, so we know

520
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: what time she goes in. One minute after Caitlin goes in.

521
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 2: After Mariah goes in, Katelin Armstrong pulls up and idols outside.

522
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: She Kitlin Armstrong was following Mo and I believe Moe

523
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: came home and the boyfriend dropped her off of his

524
00:33:55,360 --> 00:34:01,480
Speaker 2: motorcycle right there and in one minus in it, Caitlin,

525
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 2: I was trong, creeps up, Wow, what a coink? You

526
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:09,720
Speaker 2: think she happens to be right there within two minutes

527
00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: of Mariah being done down dead?

528
00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 9: Absolutely, Nancy, And there's been a lot of talk of

529
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 9: the whole circumstantial lovenance. She's buried under a mountain of

530
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 9: circumstantial evenance. It's just circumstantial evenance. Everything is circumstantial evenance.

531
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 9: Its circumstantial loveness just means there's no direct evidence, and

532
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 9: direct evidences would be an eyewitness seeing her pull the trigger.

533
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 9: So yeah, it's all circumstantial evenings. But kind of getting

534
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,960
Speaker 9: back to an observation you made just a moment ago

535
00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 9: us here talking about old ballistic evenance. It's it's not

536
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 9: really a science and DNA. You'll hear from experts that DNA,

537
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 9: you know, it really means very very little. Well technically,

538
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 9: you know, technically prosperious. Correct, He's just playing a very

539
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 9: very bad hand as well as he is able. He

540
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,760
Speaker 9: could find some people that says, oh, blistic technology, ballistic evenance,

541
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 9: fire identification testimony, it's really more of an art than science.

542
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 9: That doesn't mean it's not any good. Same thing DNA

543
00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 9: can mean very little, Yeah, when you don't have any DNA.

544
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 9: So technically what he's saying is true. But if those

545
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 9: prosecutors were savvy, would they would try to use everything

546
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 9: you said in response to hearing that hearing that opening savement,

547
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,560
Speaker 9: You're right on the money's gone ballistic evan has been

548
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 9: around for decades, It's been around for centuries. DNA is

549
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 9: some of the most accurate level evidence we often have.

550
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 9: So you're absolutely right when they talk about all it's

551
00:35:33,640 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 9: just kind of circumstance with evidence. It is a virtual

552
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,799
Speaker 9: certainty just based on some of the observations you just

553
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 9: made as to the timeline of these events.

554
00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:45,960
Speaker 2: You know, Alan Bennett joining me, high profile lawyer out

555
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 2: of this jurisdiction. This is his jurisdiction Austin, Texas. One way,

556
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,760
Speaker 2: for instance, that the defense could be right about DNA

557
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 2: meaning very little is if the DNA is rightfully in

558
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:59,880
Speaker 2: that location. For instance, if you go look in my kitchen,

559
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 2: you're gonna find my DNA. If you look in my car,

560
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 2: you're gonna find my DNA. So what it means nothing.

561
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 2: So one way they could attack this, not to give

562
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 2: them any ideas, is that their client, Kaylin Armstrong's DNA

563
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:21,759
Speaker 2: was rightfully and innocently on Mariah Mariah Wilson's bike. That's

564
00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 2: one way they could get around it. Then they could

565
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 2: bring in an expert to try and discredit the ballistics

566
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 2: the ballistics information, but all together, all together, it's painting

567
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: a horrible picture. What about it? Dr Bethany Marshall. Now,

568
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:39,440
Speaker 2: they're not gonna have anybody on the stand to do

569
00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 2: what you do because that would be inadmissible. But that said,

570
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,480
Speaker 2: we're not in a court of law. Explain to me

571
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: this behavior. I mean, if I got to go out

572
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,800
Speaker 2: and follow a man around in the middle of the

573
00:36:53,920 --> 00:36:57,400
Speaker 2: night and follow him and watch him having a hamburger

574
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,440
Speaker 2: with somebody, you know what, don't need. I got enough

575
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:04,359
Speaker 2: problems enough to do. I don't want to add that

576
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,959
Speaker 2: in my schedule. Stalk David, No, what does this mean?

577
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,960
Speaker 7: Well, when the prosecutor said a mountain, Oh, it was

578
00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:15,239
Speaker 7: the defense who said that she's buried under a mountain of.

579
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:18,360
Speaker 2: Evidence, trapped trapped. She's trapped, trapped.

580
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,120
Speaker 7: I thought, of course, she's trapped under a mountain of

581
00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 7: evidence because she's obsessed with mo. Her psychological, behavioral, and

582
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:31,799
Speaker 7: physical fingerprints are everywhere. I'm surprised Armstrong was even able

583
00:37:31,840 --> 00:37:34,040
Speaker 7: to hold down a job or do anything else. When

584
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 7: when people stalk, they are preoccupied. They stalk digitally, they

585
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 7: stalk physically, they stalk psychologically. They start questioning other people

586
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 7: about the victim. I mean, I think it'd be interesting

587
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 7: to ask all of Armstrong's friends, if she was preoccupied

588
00:37:51,520 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 7: with mo and what was she saying and what was

589
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 7: she talking about. But another way to think about this

590
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:01,240
Speaker 7: Nancy is something called obsessional paranoia. It's the parent obsessional

591
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 7: belief that somebody's presence on this earth is negatively affecting

592
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 7: you and because of that, you have to eradicate them.

593
00:38:10,120 --> 00:38:13,839
Speaker 7: And that's one of the main reasons behind domestic homicide.

594
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 7: There's this idea that I'm too miserable. If you live,

595
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 7: I can't stand it. If you live, I am trapped

596
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,719
Speaker 7: inside your presence in a painful kind of way. So

597
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:26,200
Speaker 7: not only you know, she's not just trapped in the evidence,

598
00:38:26,200 --> 00:38:31,160
Speaker 7: she's trapped in her painful thoughts and ruminating about Muddle

599
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 7: you know.

600
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,560
Speaker 2: To you or Brandt. The prosecution and this is happening

601
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 2: right now, is bringing on evidence of nefarious behavior that

602
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 2: indicates guilt. What we know is that cops find the nine,

603
00:38:49,200 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: the six hour nine melimeter. The very moment that goes down,

604
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:59,640
Speaker 2: Caylin Armstrong is caught on video selling her car. Take

605
00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:01,319
Speaker 2: a list into our one ninety four.

606
00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 4: You'll see Taylor Mstone on a video camera at Carmacks

607
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 4: in South Austin. Near their home. She goes to Carmacks

608
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 4: and she sells her get but twelve thousand thouars.

609
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 6: You see a.

610
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:22,439
Speaker 4: Video for in Carmacks. On that same day, you'll see

611
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 4: an Uber receipt.

612
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 3: She rides in Uber Austin Birch and a report hows

613
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:30,719
Speaker 3: she sold her.

614
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: Car, so she sells. She sells her car and immediately

615
00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 2: takes an Uber and heads to the airport. So irv Brandt,

616
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 2: is there any more of a text book getaway?

617
00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,560
Speaker 6: No, Nancy, there's not. And you can call it a

618
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 6: consciousness of guilt, showing you know the reasons why. The

619
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 6: defense will say that Armstrong travels a lot and is

620
00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:01,000
Speaker 6: known to travel at the last moment, but who shows

621
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:06,560
Speaker 6: their vehicle for cash, gets on a plane, then uses

622
00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 6: another person's passport to go to another country to go

623
00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 6: under an assume name, and then have cosmetic surgery. It

624
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 6: all shows that she pleas and it's, you know, a

625
00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 6: consciousness of guilt.

626
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 2: And of course Alan Bennett high profile. While you're joining

627
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,720
Speaker 2: us out of this jurisdiction in Austin, Texas, the jury

628
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: is going to hear about her escaping custody and going

629
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 2: on the run. You know, ten days ago they're going

630
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: to hear about that too.

631
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 9: Yes, Nancy, I think that is clearly ad missed. Wonder

632
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 9: our law to show evidence of guilt, where a consciousness

633
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 9: of guilt on this Armstrong's part.

634
00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:48,200
Speaker 2: The jury, we'll have a mountain of evidence. Let's see

635
00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: what the defense does with it. But I can tell

636
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 2: you this much, a lot of tears in the courtroom today.

637
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,040
Speaker 1: We wait as justice unfolds.

638
00:40:56,440 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: Goodbye, friend one.