WEBVTT - Spotify: Starving Artists? 0:00:06.600 --> 0:00:08.520 I remember when I was eight or nine years old 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:12.320 and my parents finally allowed me to use the record player, 0:00:12.840 --> 0:00:19.040 like all by myself, choose an album line up, the 0:00:19.079 --> 0:00:24.919 needle pulled the little lever, watch as it slowly lands 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:41.839 on the spinning record, so satisfying. When I moved to 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:44.600 New York in my twenties, I poke around record stores 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:48.239 in the East Village near CBGB, but my go to 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:52.000 place for buying music was Tower Records on Broadway. Like 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.400 It's spent an entire afternoon browsing for c ds, going 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:58.360 into listening booze, admiring the album art in the little 0:00:58.440 --> 0:01:03.640 jewel cases. The experience, you know, it really brought music 0:01:03.720 --> 0:01:09.160 to life, and I certainly wasn't alone in CD revenue 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:13.200 made up most of the fourteen point five billion dollar 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:21.120 music industry. But of course change is the only constant, 0:01:21.200 --> 0:01:25.120 and in two thousand and six Tower filed for bankruptcy. 0:01:26.640 --> 0:01:31.240 It was a sign of the times. Websites like Napster 0:01:31.440 --> 0:01:34.640 and you torrent ushered in a new way to discover 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.440 and share music. Each song could be duplicated and passed 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:43.600 along endlessly with no loss in quality. Physical music sales plummeted, 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:50.520 and the music industry suffered a massive pay cut. Music 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:58.840 had moved to the Internet, where everything is free. Welcome 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:03.200 to Calling bull Ship, the podcast about purpose washing, the 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:06.760 gap between what an organization says they stand for and 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:09.440 what they actually do, and what they would need to 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:12.880 change to practice what they preach. I'm your host time 0:02:12.880 --> 0:02:16.320 onto you, and I've spent over a decade helping organizations 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:19.799 define what they stand for, their purpose and then help 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:25.320 them to use that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately, 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.639 at a lot of institutions today, there's still a pretty 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:32.000 wide gap between word and deed. That gap has a 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:37.960 name bullshit. But, and this is important, bullshit is serious, 0:02:38.360 --> 0:02:42.040 but it's also a treatable condition. So when our bullshit 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:46.600 detector lights up, we're going to explore everything the organization 0:02:46.639 --> 0:02:59.680 should do to fix it. The same year that Tower 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:05.400 wreck It's closed, Daniel Eck founded Spotify. He had been 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.880 the CEO of u Torrent, a platform that allowed users 0:03:08.919 --> 0:03:14.400 to anonymously swap large media files. The program itself was legal, 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:17.960 but it ended up mostly being used to pirate music. 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:23.360 Pirate of music wasn't profitable, Labels and governments were cracking down, 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:28.120 and X saw an opportunity. By working with labels and artists, 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:31.880 he could charge listeners for access to a massive digital 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:37.760 library and reclaimed the value of music. And so he 0:03:37.840 --> 0:03:41.920 started Spotify with the mission to unlock the potential of 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:46.040 human creativity by giving a million creative artists the opportunity 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.400 to live off their art and billions of fans the 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:57.680 opportunity to enjoy and be inspired by it. Streaming now 0:03:57.720 --> 0:04:01.440 makes up about eight of the music industries revenue, and 0:04:01.600 --> 0:04:05.440 Spotify is the most popular streaming service in the world, 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:10.480 with one eight million people paying for the premium subscription 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.280 and hundreds of millions more listening for free on the 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:21.039 ad supported tier. But is it actually possible for artists 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:27.040 to make a living with Spotify? Spotify positions themselves as 0:04:27.120 --> 0:04:31.520 artist friendly their platforms. Spotify for Artists helps musicians get 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:35.440 stats on listeners and manage their profiles, and they launched 0:04:35.480 --> 0:04:40.000 the Loud and Clear campaign in one to quote give 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:45.320 artists clarity about the economics of music streaming. How exactly 0:04:45.320 --> 0:04:49.440 do artists and songwriters get paid? Let's break it down first. 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:53.320 It's important to know that Spotify does not pay artists 0:04:53.400 --> 0:04:58.840 or songwriters directly. Instead, Spotify pays the rights holders. So 0:04:58.880 --> 0:05:03.840 who are they? These are typically record labels, distributors, aggregators, 0:05:03.960 --> 0:05:08.520 or collecting societies. Artists and songwriters choose their rights holders 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:11.800 and make agreements on their music, including giving them permission 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:15.839 to deliver it to Spotify. In return, Spotify pays these 0:05:15.920 --> 0:05:19.200 rights holders and they then pay the artists and songwriters. 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:23.719 As of Spotify has paid over twenty one billion euro 0:05:23.839 --> 0:05:27.719 and royalties to rights holders, including over one billion euro 0:05:28.080 --> 0:05:32.000 every quarter of for a total of five billion euro 0:05:32.200 --> 0:05:36.159 last year alone. That's a lot of cash, but in 0:05:37.400 --> 0:05:41.000 only three percent of artists on Spotify made more than 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:45.880 a thousand bucks. In fact, most artists make fractions of 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:49.320 a penny per stream, and people like backup singers and 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:54.960 songwriters who aren't top build artists make even less. Back 0:05:54.960 --> 0:05:57.480 in the c D age, it was possible to make 0:05:57.520 --> 0:06:01.520 a middle class living as a professional musician. Today that's 0:06:01.560 --> 0:06:06.080 a lot harder. So where does all that cash go? 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.880 Is Spotify's purpose, which they say is to give a 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.480 million creative artists the opportunity to live off their art 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:18.280 actually a core principle or is that just a song 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:23.440 and dance? To help me further understand the relationship between 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:28.080 Spotify and artists. I called up musician, producer, label owner, 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:35.240 and activist Blake Morrigan. Folks, I am very excited to 0:06:35.320 --> 0:06:42.440 introduce entrepreneur, musician, activist, and all around busy person Blake Morgan. Blake, 0:06:43.120 --> 0:06:46.440 thanks for being here and welcome to calling bullshit. Hey, 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:50.000 thanks for having me, um so for the folks at 0:06:50.040 --> 0:06:53.440 home as it were. Would you mind just telling us 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:56.320 a little bit about your your background, how you got 0:06:56.320 --> 0:06:58.960 into music, and and some of your adventures in it. 0:07:00.240 --> 0:07:03.839 I'm a recording artist and songwriter and record producer and 0:07:04.560 --> 0:07:07.080 label owner here in New York City, my beloved hometown. 0:07:07.240 --> 0:07:09.840 Grew up on the Lower East Side, and I've been 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.679 making music my whole life. Both my parents are writers, 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.320 and so I grew up in an artistic household. I 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.800 think if I'd i'd grown up to be a tax attorney, 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:21.160 that would have been more rebellious growing up to be 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.200 a rock and roll musician as I have. So, you know, 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.160 you've gone on to have a very successful career. You've 0:07:27.160 --> 0:07:31.400 recorded several of your own records and also started your 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:35.240 own label, E c R. What motivated you to make 0:07:35.320 --> 0:07:40.520 that leap to entrepreneurship, The cliche goes is a necessity 0:07:40.600 --> 0:07:43.120 is the mother of invention. But you know, so it's desperation. 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:46.520 And I've had a huge record deal with with still 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:50.240 Ramon and his label and two K, which is Sony Red, 0:07:50.600 --> 0:07:54.000 and it was it was a great artistic experience, but 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.800 it was terrible label. And I had to fight my 0:07:56.840 --> 0:07:59.240 way out of my seven album deal. And I was, 0:08:00.360 --> 0:08:03.520 you know, following sort of standard industry advice and showcasing 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:06.400 to get other deals. And I was actually walking down 0:08:06.440 --> 0:08:08.040 street with my mother and I said to her, you know, 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:09.320 if I had any guts, what I would deal is 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:11.000 I would just start my own label. All these demos 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:14.640 that I'm making and producing these EPs and pseudo records 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:16.560 that I'm making, you know, they could actually be real records. 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:18.440 I had any guts, you know that That's really what 0:08:18.480 --> 0:08:20.000 I would do. And my mother turned to me and 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:21.000 she was like, yeah, you know what, if you had 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.880 any guts, that is what you would do. Um And 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:25.840 I remember stopping in the middle of Fifth Avenue in 0:08:25.840 --> 0:08:27.360 the Weaven Street and just putting my hands on my 0:08:27.440 --> 0:08:29.760 knees and oh my god, this is now what I'm 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:35.559 gonna have to do. And you know, John Milton said, 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:37.640 it's it's better to rule in hell than serve in heaven. 0:08:37.720 --> 0:08:39.480 And it's turned out not to be hell at all. 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:41.000 It's turned out to be a heaven of its own. 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.640 It was more desperation even the necessity. It's like I 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:48.680 had simply gotten tired of handing music that I bled over, 0:08:49.160 --> 0:08:51.440 tired of handing it over to people who then invariably 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:54.480 screwed it up. Um. And that still happens to this day. 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:56.200 But now that they when they screw it up, they 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:57.760 have to deal with me. He was the president that 0:08:57.800 --> 0:09:01.960 you see our music group. And along the way you 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:07.000 you have become an activist. You've been a critic of 0:09:07.000 --> 0:09:11.400 of streaming platforms in particular like Pandora and and Spotify. 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:13.640 So I wonder if we could pivot and start to 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:17.840 talk about Spotify. Um. You know, they're a company who 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.480 says their mission is to unlock the potential of human 0:09:21.480 --> 0:09:24.680 creativity by giving a million creative artists the opportunity to 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:29.359 live off their art and billions of fans the opportunity 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:33.320 to enjoy it and be inspired by it. So what, what, 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.960 if anything, do you take issue with in that statement. 0:09:38.280 --> 0:09:41.560 I mean, it's just a statement that appears to have 0:09:41.760 --> 0:09:45.720 words in English strung together. You know, thank God that 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.360 that green logo and that company is here to unlock 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.920 my creative potential because I didn't know what to do before. 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:54.240 I just didn't know what to do. Thank God for 0:09:54.360 --> 0:09:58.040 Daniel k. Thank God for Daniel Eck, the CEO of 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.800 you Torrents, which then became in bit torn he's a pirate. 0:10:02.520 --> 0:10:06.240 I mean, this statement would be like Philip Morris saying 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:09.400 we're here to teach people to breathe more deeply. You know, 0:10:09.440 --> 0:10:10.959 I mean, like, where do you even start with a 0:10:11.040 --> 0:10:14.040 sense like if it's so offensive? Yeah, so Hubris in 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:16.920 that statement for sure. But the part that really gets 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.400 my attention is the by giving a million creative RC 0:10:20.520 --> 0:10:24.680 opportunity to live off their art. How true or untrue 0:10:24.760 --> 0:10:27.760 is that? It's just it's nonsense. You know. The thing 0:10:27.760 --> 0:10:30.760 about Spotify, Their free tier means that when I release 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:33.560 a record, my record is available for free on every 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:36.960 phone in the world. Right, Okay, Now, this is not 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:39.440 the case with Apple, This is not the case with Title, 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.600 it's not the case with Deezer. You know, I wrote 0:10:42.600 --> 0:10:45.679 an op ed you huff in the post. It's started 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:49.800 with I love streaming and I do you know but 0:10:50.120 --> 0:10:52.920 there aren't all all all streaming platforms are not equal. 0:10:52.960 --> 0:10:55.440 Apple pays twice as much to artists as Spotify. They 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.240 pay songwriters three times as much. They don't attack artists 0:10:58.240 --> 0:11:01.720 when artists criticize the platform, and they reform their platform. 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.120 I don't work for Apple, and Apple is far from perfect. 0:11:04.480 --> 0:11:06.920 But the idea that all streaming services are the same 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:10.720 is absurd. So let's let's follow that thread for just second, 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:12.679 and then I want to return to the money. You know, 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:17.320 other more pro let's call them pro artists platforms have 0:11:17.400 --> 0:11:22.040 been launched, title among them. It doesn't feel like those 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:26.000 platforms have gotten the traction that Spotify has though, you know, 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:32.120 just in terms of sheer size and momentum. Why is that, Well, 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:34.680 that's a narrative that Spotify has put out into the world. 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.359 So let's be clear about a couple of things. Spotify 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:42.360 has a free tier. Apple does not. So this is 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.600 where we run into a problem. Spotify has essentially a 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:51.360 quote unquote legalized pirates platform, which is their free tier. Right, 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:56.400 So that's the comparing Spotify to Apple titled Deezer and Amazon. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:12:00.760 It's not the same business model whatsoever. And the bind 0:12:00.840 --> 0:12:02.959 that Spotify is, and of course is that you know, 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:06.320 Spotify actually thinks it's saved music. And I've dealt with 0:12:06.360 --> 0:12:08.800 many executives of Spotify. One of the big parts of 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:11.520 my music advocacy is actually about big radio and the 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:14.880 music fairness at and so I deal with big radio 0:12:14.880 --> 0:12:18.600 broadcasters all the time, and I liken the bullshit and 0:12:19.120 --> 0:12:22.480 the big radio broadcasters. They're sort of like big oil 0:12:22.679 --> 0:12:26.079 or big tobacco in that they know that they're doing 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.880 wrong and they almost kind of admit it, but they're 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.080 basically able to get away with it. So they're gonna 0:12:32.120 --> 0:12:33.839 get away with it for however long they're going to 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:36.160 get away with it, and then they'll move on. Spotify 0:12:36.240 --> 0:12:39.400 is very different. When you talk to executives that Spotify, 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:42.880 they are evangelistic about the platform. They really believe that 0:12:42.920 --> 0:12:46.000 they are saving music. So the bullshit in the statement 0:12:46.040 --> 0:12:47.520 that you read at the top of this part of 0:12:47.520 --> 0:12:52.479 the conversation isn't just offensive and ridiculous. They need it. 0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:56.280 It's a really amazing phenomenon. I wonder if you could, 0:12:56.480 --> 0:13:01.200 just because most people, myself included, don't really understand this, 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:07.240 can you explain the relationship between Spotify, record labels and musicians, like, 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:12.479 how do the royalties work in streaming? So Spotify pays 0:13:12.920 --> 0:13:16.720 um sev of their revenue to right solders. Okay, this 0:13:16.760 --> 0:13:20.720 is a number that they tout constantly because they it 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:22.480 sounds like an amazing number, Like, well, wait a minute, 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.840 what's the problem like that They're they're paying seventy of 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:28.560 revenue out to right solders? Right right. But again, even 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:30.800 if we forget about the free tier for a moment, 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.319 and we remember that a subscription of Spotify its ten 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:35.880 dollars a month, So ten dollars a month is a 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:38.600 d twenty dollars a year, and over the course of 0:13:38.640 --> 0:13:43.040 that year, as a Spotify subscriber, you can listen to 0:13:43.440 --> 0:13:47.280 tens of thousands of songs, thousands of records. Right at 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:51.200 the end of that year, all of those people who 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:56.360 made all of those records are splitting sevent a hundred 0:13:56.400 --> 0:13:59.480 and twenty dollars, which is eighty four dollars. So you 0:13:59.559 --> 0:14:03.040 just list into four thousand songs that year. All of 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:07.080 the people, not just the artists, all the people who 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:10.920 made those records, all the people who worked on all 0:14:10.960 --> 0:14:14.160 of the revenue that went into making all of those records, 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.840 All of those people are splitting eighty four dollars, And 0:14:16.920 --> 0:14:21.880 that's fundamentally the problem with streaming. They fundamentally undermined the 0:14:21.920 --> 0:14:24.760 ability of musicians to make a living at their at 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.960 their music. So that's how the money works, plain and simple, 0:14:28.080 --> 0:14:30.400 and we can get granular about different parts of it. 0:14:30.600 --> 0:14:33.600 But seventy of a hundred and twenty dollars is eighty 0:14:33.640 --> 0:14:39.520 four dollars after a year. Where does the other Here 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.040 are some important numbers when it comes to you know again, 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.000 how this breaks down. Where does the money go? Where 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:48.720 does spotifystent go? Right? So it takes an artist like me, 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:53.080 uh or any artist on Spotify. It takes four hundred 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:56.400 thousand streams a month for me to earn minimum wage 0:14:56.400 --> 0:15:01.000 on Spotify four hundred thousand streams a month to earn 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.760 minimum wage. So the money where does that percent go? 0:15:03.960 --> 0:15:06.680 It goes to paying coders, It goes towards paying for 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.680 Spotify is five and fifty million dollar offices here in 0:15:10.720 --> 0:15:13.840 downtown Manhattan, year ground zero, and it goes towards paying 0:15:14.400 --> 0:15:17.480 Joe Rogan two hundred million dollars for his racist and 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:21.600 misogynistic and homophobic anti science podcast. So that's where your 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:25.520 money is going that's where goes. So of all the 0:15:25.600 --> 0:15:29.600 artists on Spotify, how many of them get even four 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:33.560 hundred thousand streams? I mean, four hundred thousand streams is 0:15:33.600 --> 0:15:37.080 not a superstar number, but it's a serious number because 0:15:37.120 --> 0:15:39.040 you'd have to do it every month, you know. So 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:42.280 it's four million streams after ten months. That's a lot 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:45.360 of streams. I would imagine that the amount of artists 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:48.400 getting four hundred thousand streams a month would be at 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:50.840 least in the single digit percentages, if not in the 0:15:51.000 --> 0:15:53.840 like two percent, three percent, one percent kind of thing. 0:15:54.120 --> 0:15:58.440 It's very very it's very few. Yeah, crazy. Let's pivot 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:01.760 to to just talk about some of the things that 0:16:01.800 --> 0:16:05.480 you've been up to in terms of solutions. First of all, 0:16:06.600 --> 0:16:11.360 you started a movement called hashtag I Respect Music, and 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:14.640 as a part of that, you know, you've said that 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.520 you were against the way streaming companies treat musicians, but 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:21.680 you're not against streaming itself, and I wonder if you 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:25.200 could break that down for us. You know, I love streaming, 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:28.320 I love its convenience, I love making playlists, I love 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.520 I love lots of things about it. But you know, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:33.800 so how can I love streaming but be against the 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:37.880 way streaming is affecting musicians. Just because I'm saying that 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:42.080 we should be paid fairly and unscrupulous, you know, corporations 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:45.400 like Spotify should be reformed. That doesn't mean that I 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.440 think streaming is the problem. So who is getting it right? 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:53.280 You've mentioned Apple? Is it sounds like better? Um? Are 0:16:53.320 --> 0:16:57.440 there other services that you feel like are are doing 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:01.160 a better job. All of the major dreaming services are 0:17:01.200 --> 0:17:03.920 doing a better job than Spotify. Apple is better, far 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:07.320 from perfect, but they're better. Title far from perfect, better either, 0:17:07.320 --> 0:17:12.160 actually maybe one of the best. Right. I was very 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.080 excited back in the day when Title launched, you know, 0:17:15.119 --> 0:17:18.400 because it seemed like they had real some some very 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:23.040 famous artists backing and and the proposition appeared to be 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:26.280 to create a service that was pro artist and try 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:30.560 to get consumers of music to adopt that platform as 0:17:30.600 --> 0:17:33.720 a as a kind of rebellion against the way that 0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:37.959 musicians are treated in the industry. But it doesn't appear 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:41.200 that Title has has taken off. What what went wrong there? 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.080 I think that they really had their hearts in the 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:47.520 right place, and I think they still do. Um, that's 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.200 the platform you want to be on as a subscriber 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:52.919 if you really care about Audio's a really good example. 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.360 But I think that they really bundled their press conference 0:17:55.400 --> 0:17:57.040 because the way that they came out is that they 0:17:57.080 --> 0:17:59.240 had all of these mega stars at their press conference 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.320 at their launch, and they were all talking about how 0:18:01.320 --> 0:18:04.600 they weren't paid enough. And it's true, they're not paid enough, 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:07.199 But the problem with that tack is that then what 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.800 listeners do is they see a press conference like like that, 0:18:09.840 --> 0:18:11.760 and they're like, why do I care if Madonna isn't 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.280 getting enough money? She's got millions of dollars, Why don't care? 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:16.639 Fiance is not. And what I wish that they had 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:18.679 done in their press conferences if they had had in 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.520 a row on stage, if they'd had Madonna and to 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:24.840 her left a music teacher, and to the music teachers 0:18:24.920 --> 0:18:29.000 left Jay Z and this is and the sound engineer 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.000 and the carpenter who builds the recording student, and the 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.920 guy who's driving the van, and the woman who's setting 0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:39.200 up merch because all of those people are funded as 0:18:39.280 --> 0:18:42.159 part of our music industry. So I think that's the 0:18:42.240 --> 0:18:46.040 mistake that they made. Um it was a pr mistake, 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:47.600 but I do think that their hearts are in the 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:51.960 right place, just following the thread of changes that that 0:18:52.160 --> 0:18:56.359 need to be made. Are there legislative avenues to solve 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:59.479 this problem? I think that legislation is one way to go. 0:18:59.560 --> 0:19:01.840 I think digislation is going to be much more helpful 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:03.840 when it comes to the battle that we have with radio, 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:06.960 which you know, some of your listeners may not even 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:09.840 know that artists don't get paid anything for radio airplay 0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:11.680 in the United States. The United States is the only 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.600 democratic country in the world where artists don't get paid 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:16.960 for radio air That just blows me away. Has that 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:20.159 always been true? Always been true? The only countries in 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.720 the world that share the distinction with the United States 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:27.600 or North Korea, Iran and China. Nice good company. You 0:19:27.680 --> 0:19:30.840 meant yes, you mentioned I respect music, which is something 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:34.640 of an homage to Aretha Franklin, because Aretha Franklin never 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:37.480 got paid one dime for for respect being on the 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:42.560 radio United States, which is insane. That's insane, It's completely insane. 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:46.560 It's completely insane. And um That also impacts the streaming debate, 0:19:46.920 --> 0:19:49.880 and it impacts the struggle with Spotify, because what Spotify 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.240 says to musicians is, hey, listen, we don't pay you 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:54.919 a lot, but you know what, it's better than nothing, 0:19:55.119 --> 0:19:57.640 and you get nothing on radio. So if we can 0:19:57.680 --> 0:20:02.080 close the loophole that big, big radio has enjoyed for 0:20:02.119 --> 0:20:05.560 a hundred years, that's going to actually really effects how 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:08.040 we're able to propressure on streaming services, which we want 0:20:08.040 --> 0:20:11.320 to do. You know, it's interesting other parts of the 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:14.200 media business went through this after the music business and 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:16.119 seemed to have recovered. Like there was a period of 0:20:16.160 --> 0:20:18.840 time when there was a big there was a collapse 0:20:19.119 --> 0:20:23.239 of of many journalistic entities because people were getting their 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:26.080 news for free and didn't want to pay, And it 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.760 turns out that for the right outlet, people will pay 0:20:28.800 --> 0:20:31.520 for it. Have we trained people at this point that 0:20:31.640 --> 0:20:35.880 music should be free and is the problem untraining them? Yeah, 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:38.720 that's a big part of you know, a major problem 0:20:38.760 --> 0:20:41.920 that Spotify has that I've talked about often is Spotify 0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:45.960 doesn't make anything. Do you see the motion picture industry 0:20:46.119 --> 0:20:49.040 or the television industry or actor's equity up in arms 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.840 about Netflix or HBO or Apple? No, you know why, 0:20:52.880 --> 0:20:55.960 because Netflix makes things, They make stranger things, which employs 0:20:56.000 --> 0:21:02.080 gaffers and carpenters and screenwriters and actually right, they make things. 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:06.080 Spotify doesn't make anything. So again, there are a distribution 0:21:06.400 --> 0:21:09.840 platform and they take thirty of revenue. Why why are 0:21:09.840 --> 0:21:14.400 they taking to upload my my music to the magical interweb? 0:21:14.760 --> 0:21:16.800 And there's another thing that Spotify I could do that 0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:18.720 would really change things, and in fact that this is 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.000 something Apple could do. All of the major streaming services 0:21:22.119 --> 0:21:25.520 have a payment model outside of Deezer. Deezer is the 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:28.400 one that's changed, and your listeners may not notice either. 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:31.520 But you may think that I get paid a certain 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:35.439 fraction of a penny per stream when I'm streamed on 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:39.320 Spotify or Apple, but I'm actually not. There's no streaming 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:43.000 rate nor is Like if you have a ten dollar 0:21:43.080 --> 0:21:46.160 subscription to a streaming service Spotify, Apple, something like that, 0:21:46.480 --> 0:21:49.760 you'd think that the people you listen to are splitting 0:21:49.800 --> 0:21:53.200 the seven dollars of your ten dollars, like in other words, 0:21:53.200 --> 0:21:55.399 that your seven dollars is going to the people that 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:58.080 you listen to. But that's not the way it works 0:21:58.119 --> 0:22:01.479 at all. The major streaming come copanies outside of Deezer 0:22:01.680 --> 0:22:04.560 and SoundCloud has changed as well. They use a pro 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:07.480 radar system where all of the streams are put into 0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:10.919 a pool divided by the amount of streams, and then 0:22:11.000 --> 0:22:13.399 you get paid by the amount of market share you 0:22:13.480 --> 0:22:18.080 have in that pool. Because Beyonce has a larger market 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:21.760 share than I do, it means that she's actually getting 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:25.680 paid more money from my streams than I am. It's 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:29.240 not a listener centric model, obviously. The way it should 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:32.359 work the artist, the artist who gets listened to should 0:22:32.359 --> 0:22:36.439 get paid, should get that s exactly. And what that 0:22:36.480 --> 0:22:39.160 would do just the obvious thing of like, well, wait 0:22:39.200 --> 0:22:40.959 a minute, you don't even get paid for the streams 0:22:41.000 --> 0:22:43.720 that you're actually receiving. What that would do is that 0:22:43.720 --> 0:22:48.920 would shore up local artists, niche artists, niche genres as 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:54.119 opposed to the constant gravity pool of mainstream gigantic pop music. 0:22:54.320 --> 0:22:56.639 And it wouldn't cost them anything. It's the same seven dollars. 0:22:56.640 --> 0:22:59.600 It's just going to the right people. So what what's 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.840 it going to take? I saw that a bill has 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:06.639 been introduced uh the American Music Fairness Act. What's the 0:23:06.760 --> 0:23:09.960 status of that? Would that begin to level the playing 0:23:10.000 --> 0:23:13.800 field for artists? American Music Fairness Act would actually finally 0:23:13.800 --> 0:23:16.919 close the loophole and and American broadcast radio would have 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:19.000 to pay artists for radio play. Yes, just just like 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:22.200 the rest of the world. Is it going to pass? Well, 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:24.600 we're really hopeful, and it was just introduced into the 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:27.120 United States Senate, so it has a lot of momentum 0:23:28.000 --> 0:23:30.720 um and we find like this is the farthest that 0:23:30.800 --> 0:23:33.119 this bill has ever gotten. There's been versions of this 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:36.080 bill earlier, but there's a different kind of ground swell now. 0:23:36.119 --> 0:23:39.840 I think that listeners, music lovers, and music makers have 0:23:39.960 --> 0:23:42.760 really come together with this bill and said, well, wait 0:23:42.760 --> 0:23:45.000 a minute, there's a lot of things that we can't fix, 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:47.080 and this is not one of those. This is easy 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:52.000 to fix. To one, how does Spotify think about this? Um? 0:23:52.040 --> 0:23:54.680 You were you were part of a meeting with Spotify 0:23:54.720 --> 0:23:59.520 execs uh with some artists a few years back, and 0:24:00.720 --> 0:24:03.359 it ended in a debate. But can you talk about 0:24:03.480 --> 0:24:07.119 your experience in that meeting? Sure? So I was invited 0:24:07.160 --> 0:24:11.119 to this so called artists only meeting with Spotify about artists, 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:13.600 and uh. It turned out that it was kind of 0:24:13.600 --> 0:24:16.760