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Speaker 1: I remember when I was eight or nine years old

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Speaker 1: and my parents finally allowed me to use the record player,

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Speaker 1: like all by myself, choose an album line up, the

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Speaker 1: needle pulled the little lever, watch as it slowly lands

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Speaker 1: on the spinning record, so satisfying. When I moved to

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Speaker 1: New York in my twenties, I poke around record stores

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Speaker 1: in the East Village near CBGB, but my go to

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Speaker 1: place for buying music was Tower Records on Broadway. Like

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Speaker 1: It's spent an entire afternoon browsing for c ds, going

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Speaker 1: into listening booze, admiring the album art in the little

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Speaker 1: jewel cases. The experience, you know, it really brought music

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Speaker 1: to life, and I certainly wasn't alone in CD revenue

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Speaker 1: made up most of the fourteen point five billion dollar

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Speaker 1: music industry. But of course change is the only constant,

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Speaker 1: and in two thousand and six Tower filed for bankruptcy.

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Speaker 1: It was a sign of the times. Websites like Napster

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Speaker 1: and you torrent ushered in a new way to discover

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Speaker 1: and share music. Each song could be duplicated and passed

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Speaker 1: along endlessly with no loss in quality. Physical music sales plummeted,

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Speaker 1: and the music industry suffered a massive pay cut. Music

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Speaker 1: had moved to the Internet, where everything is free. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Calling bull Ship, the podcast about purpose washing, the

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Speaker 1: gap between what an organization says they stand for and

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Speaker 1: what they actually do, and what they would need to

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Speaker 1: change to practice what they preach. I'm your host time

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Speaker 1: onto you, and I've spent over a decade helping organizations

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Speaker 1: define what they stand for, their purpose and then help

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Speaker 1: them to use that purpose to drive transformation throughout their business. Unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: at a lot of institutions today, there's still a pretty

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Speaker 1: wide gap between word and deed. That gap has a

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Speaker 1: name bullshit. But, and this is important, bullshit is serious,

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Speaker 1: but it's also a treatable condition. So when our bullshit

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Speaker 1: detector lights up, we're going to explore everything the organization

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Speaker 1: should do to fix it. The same year that Tower

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Speaker 1: wreck It's closed, Daniel Eck founded Spotify. He had been

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Speaker 1: the CEO of u Torrent, a platform that allowed users

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Speaker 1: to anonymously swap large media files. The program itself was legal,

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Speaker 1: but it ended up mostly being used to pirate music.

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Speaker 1: Pirate of music wasn't profitable, Labels and governments were cracking down,

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Speaker 1: and X saw an opportunity. By working with labels and artists,

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Speaker 1: he could charge listeners for access to a massive digital

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Speaker 1: library and reclaimed the value of music. And so he

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Speaker 1: started Spotify with the mission to unlock the potential of

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Speaker 1: human creativity by giving a million creative artists the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to live off their art and billions of fans the

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Speaker 1: opportunity to enjoy and be inspired by it. Streaming now

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Speaker 1: makes up about eight of the music industries revenue, and

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Speaker 1: Spotify is the most popular streaming service in the world,

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Speaker 1: with one eight million people paying for the premium subscription

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Speaker 1: and hundreds of millions more listening for free on the

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Speaker 1: ad supported tier. But is it actually possible for artists

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Speaker 1: to make a living with Spotify? Spotify positions themselves as

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Speaker 1: artist friendly their platforms. Spotify for Artists helps musicians get

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Speaker 1: stats on listeners and manage their profiles, and they launched

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Speaker 1: the Loud and Clear campaign in one to quote give

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Speaker 1: artists clarity about the economics of music streaming. How exactly

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Speaker 1: do artists and songwriters get paid? Let's break it down first.

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Speaker 1: It's important to know that Spotify does not pay artists

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Speaker 1: or songwriters directly. Instead, Spotify pays the rights holders. So

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Speaker 1: who are they? These are typically record labels, distributors, aggregators,

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Speaker 1: or collecting societies. Artists and songwriters choose their rights holders

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Speaker 1: and make agreements on their music, including giving them permission

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Speaker 1: to deliver it to Spotify. In return, Spotify pays these

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Speaker 1: rights holders and they then pay the artists and songwriters.

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Speaker 1: As of Spotify has paid over twenty one billion euro

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Speaker 1: and royalties to rights holders, including over one billion euro

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Speaker 1: every quarter of for a total of five billion euro

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Speaker 1: last year alone. That's a lot of cash, but in

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Speaker 1: only three percent of artists on Spotify made more than

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Speaker 1: a thousand bucks. In fact, most artists make fractions of

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Speaker 1: a penny per stream, and people like backup singers and

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Speaker 1: songwriters who aren't top build artists make even less. Back

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Speaker 1: in the c D age, it was possible to make

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Speaker 1: a middle class living as a professional musician. Today that's

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Speaker 1: a lot harder. So where does all that cash go?

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Speaker 1: Is Spotify's purpose, which they say is to give a

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Speaker 1: million creative artists the opportunity to live off their art

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Speaker 1: actually a core principle or is that just a song

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Speaker 1: and dance? To help me further understand the relationship between

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Speaker 1: Spotify and artists. I called up musician, producer, label owner,

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Speaker 1: and activist Blake Morrigan. Folks, I am very excited to

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Speaker 1: introduce entrepreneur, musician, activist, and all around busy person Blake Morgan. Blake,

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Speaker 1: thanks for being here and welcome to calling bullshit. Hey,

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Speaker 1: thanks for having me, um so for the folks at

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Speaker 1: home as it were. Would you mind just telling us

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Speaker 1: a little bit about your your background, how you got

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Speaker 1: into music, and and some of your adventures in it.

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Speaker 1: I'm a recording artist and songwriter and record producer and

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Speaker 1: label owner here in New York City, my beloved hometown.

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Speaker 1: Grew up on the Lower East Side, and I've been

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Speaker 1: making music my whole life. Both my parents are writers,

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Speaker 1: and so I grew up in an artistic household. I

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Speaker 1: think if I'd i'd grown up to be a tax attorney,

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Speaker 1: that would have been more rebellious growing up to be

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Speaker 1: a rock and roll musician as I have. So, you know,

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Speaker 1: you've gone on to have a very successful career. You've

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Speaker 1: recorded several of your own records and also started your

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Speaker 1: own label, E c R. What motivated you to make

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Speaker 1: that leap to entrepreneurship, The cliche goes is a necessity

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Speaker 1: is the mother of invention. But you know, so it's desperation.

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Speaker 1: And I've had a huge record deal with with still

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Speaker 1: Ramon and his label and two K, which is Sony Red,

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Speaker 1: and it was it was a great artistic experience, but

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Speaker 1: it was terrible label. And I had to fight my

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Speaker 1: way out of my seven album deal. And I was,

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Speaker 1: you know, following sort of standard industry advice and showcasing

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Speaker 1: to get other deals. And I was actually walking down

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Speaker 1: street with my mother and I said to her, you know,

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Speaker 1: if I had any guts, what I would deal is

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Speaker 1: I would just start my own label. All these demos

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Speaker 1: that I'm making and producing these EPs and pseudo records

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Speaker 1: that I'm making, you know, they could actually be real records.

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Speaker 1: I had any guts, you know that That's really what

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Speaker 1: I would do. And my mother turned to me and

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Speaker 1: she was like, yeah, you know what, if you had

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Speaker 1: any guts, that is what you would do. Um And

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Speaker 1: I remember stopping in the middle of Fifth Avenue in

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Speaker 1: the Weaven Street and just putting my hands on my

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Speaker 1: knees and oh my god, this is now what I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna have to do. And you know, John Milton said,

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Speaker 1: it's it's better to rule in hell than serve in heaven.

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Speaker 1: And it's turned out not to be hell at all.

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Speaker 1: It's turned out to be a heaven of its own.

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Speaker 1: It was more desperation even the necessity. It's like I

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Speaker 1: had simply gotten tired of handing music that I bled over,

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Speaker 1: tired of handing it over to people who then invariably

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Speaker 1: screwed it up. Um. And that still happens to this day.

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Speaker 1: But now that they when they screw it up, they

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Speaker 1: have to deal with me. He was the president that

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Speaker 1: you see our music group. And along the way you

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Speaker 1: you have become an activist. You've been a critic of

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Speaker 1: of streaming platforms in particular like Pandora and and Spotify.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder if we could pivot and start to

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Speaker 1: talk about Spotify. Um. You know, they're a company who

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Speaker 1: says their mission is to unlock the potential of human

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Speaker 1: creativity by giving a million creative artists the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: live off their art and billions of fans the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to enjoy it and be inspired by it. So what, what,

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Speaker 1: if anything, do you take issue with in that statement.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's just a statement that appears to have

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Speaker 1: words in English strung together. You know, thank God that

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Speaker 1: that green logo and that company is here to unlock

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Speaker 1: my creative potential because I didn't know what to do before.

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Speaker 1: I just didn't know what to do. Thank God for

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Speaker 1: Daniel k. Thank God for Daniel Eck, the CEO of

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Speaker 1: you Torrents, which then became in bit torn he's a pirate.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this statement would be like Philip Morris saying

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Speaker 1: we're here to teach people to breathe more deeply. You know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, like, where do you even start with a

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Speaker 1: sense like if it's so offensive? Yeah, so Hubris in

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Speaker 1: that statement for sure. But the part that really gets

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Speaker 1: my attention is the by giving a million creative RC

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Speaker 1: opportunity to live off their art. How true or untrue

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Speaker 1: is that? It's just it's nonsense. You know. The thing

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Speaker 1: about Spotify, Their free tier means that when I release

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Speaker 1: a record, my record is available for free on every

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Speaker 1: phone in the world. Right, Okay, Now, this is not

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Speaker 1: the case with Apple, This is not the case with Title,

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Speaker 1: it's not the case with Deezer. You know, I wrote

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Speaker 1: an op ed you huff in the post. It's started

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Speaker 1: with I love streaming and I do you know but

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Speaker 1: there aren't all all all streaming platforms are not equal.

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Speaker 1: Apple pays twice as much to artists as Spotify. They

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Speaker 1: pay songwriters three times as much. They don't attack artists

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Speaker 1: when artists criticize the platform, and they reform their platform.

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Speaker 1: I don't work for Apple, and Apple is far from perfect.

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Speaker 1: But the idea that all streaming services are the same

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Speaker 1: is absurd. So let's let's follow that thread for just second,

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Speaker 1: and then I want to return to the money. You know,

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Speaker 1: other more pro let's call them pro artists platforms have

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Speaker 1: been launched, title among them. It doesn't feel like those

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Speaker 1: platforms have gotten the traction that Spotify has though, you know,

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Speaker 1: just in terms of sheer size and momentum. Why is that, Well,

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Speaker 1: that's a narrative that Spotify has put out into the world.

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Speaker 1: So let's be clear about a couple of things. Spotify

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Speaker 1: has a free tier. Apple does not. So this is

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Speaker 1: where we run into a problem. Spotify has essentially a

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Speaker 1: quote unquote legalized pirates platform, which is their free tier. Right,

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Speaker 1: So that's the comparing Spotify to Apple titled Deezer and Amazon.

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Speaker 1: It's not the same business model whatsoever. And the bind

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Speaker 1: that Spotify is, and of course is that you know,

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Speaker 1: Spotify actually thinks it's saved music. And I've dealt with

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Speaker 1: many executives of Spotify. One of the big parts of

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Speaker 1: my music advocacy is actually about big radio and the

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Speaker 1: music fairness at and so I deal with big radio

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Speaker 1: broadcasters all the time, and I liken the bullshit and

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Speaker 1: the big radio broadcasters. They're sort of like big oil

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Speaker 1: or big tobacco in that they know that they're doing

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Speaker 1: wrong and they almost kind of admit it, but they're

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Speaker 1: basically able to get away with it. So they're gonna

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Speaker 1: get away with it for however long they're going to

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Speaker 1: get away with it, and then they'll move on. Spotify

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Speaker 1: is very different. When you talk to executives that Spotify,

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Speaker 1: they are evangelistic about the platform. They really believe that

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Speaker 1: they are saving music. So the bullshit in the statement

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Speaker 1: that you read at the top of this part of

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Speaker 1: the conversation isn't just offensive and ridiculous. They need it.

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Speaker 1: It's a really amazing phenomenon. I wonder if you could,

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Speaker 1: just because most people, myself included, don't really understand this,

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Speaker 1: can you explain the relationship between Spotify, record labels and musicians, like,

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Speaker 1: how do the royalties work in streaming? So Spotify pays

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Speaker 1: um sev of their revenue to right solders. Okay, this

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Speaker 1: is a number that they tout constantly because they it

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Speaker 1: sounds like an amazing number, Like, well, wait a minute,

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Speaker 1: what's the problem like that They're they're paying seventy of

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Speaker 1: revenue out to right solders? Right right. But again, even

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Speaker 1: if we forget about the free tier for a moment,

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Speaker 1: and we remember that a subscription of Spotify its ten

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Speaker 1: dollars a month, So ten dollars a month is a

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Speaker 1: d twenty dollars a year, and over the course of

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Speaker 1: that year, as a Spotify subscriber, you can listen to

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Speaker 1: tens of thousands of songs, thousands of records. Right at

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Speaker 1: the end of that year, all of those people who

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Speaker 1: made all of those records are splitting sevent a hundred

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Speaker 1: and twenty dollars, which is eighty four dollars. So you

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Speaker 1: just list into four thousand songs that year. All of

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Speaker 1: the people, not just the artists, all the people who

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Speaker 1: made those records, all the people who worked on all

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Speaker 1: of the revenue that went into making all of those records,

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Speaker 1: All of those people are splitting eighty four dollars, And

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Speaker 1: that's fundamentally the problem with streaming. They fundamentally undermined the

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Speaker 1: ability of musicians to make a living at their at

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Speaker 1: their music. So that's how the money works, plain and simple,

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Speaker 1: and we can get granular about different parts of it.

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Speaker 1: But seventy of a hundred and twenty dollars is eighty

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Speaker 1: four dollars after a year. Where does the other Here

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Speaker 1: are some important numbers when it comes to you know again,

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Speaker 1: how this breaks down. Where does the money go? Where

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Speaker 1: does spotifystent go? Right? So it takes an artist like me,

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Speaker 1: uh or any artist on Spotify. It takes four hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand streams a month for me to earn minimum wage

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Speaker 1: on Spotify four hundred thousand streams a month to earn

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Speaker 1: minimum wage. So the money where does that percent go?

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Speaker 1: It goes to paying coders, It goes towards paying for

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Speaker 1: Spotify is five and fifty million dollar offices here in

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Speaker 1: downtown Manhattan, year ground zero, and it goes towards paying

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Speaker 1: Joe Rogan two hundred million dollars for his racist and

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Speaker 1: misogynistic and homophobic anti science podcast. So that's where your

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Speaker 1: money is going that's where goes. So of all the

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Speaker 1: artists on Spotify, how many of them get even four

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Speaker 1: hundred thousand streams? I mean, four hundred thousand streams is

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Speaker 1: not a superstar number, but it's a serious number because

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Speaker 1: you'd have to do it every month, you know. So

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Speaker 1: it's four million streams after ten months. That's a lot

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Speaker 1: of streams. I would imagine that the amount of artists

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Speaker 1: getting four hundred thousand streams a month would be at

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Speaker 1: least in the single digit percentages, if not in the

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Speaker 1: like two percent, three percent, one percent kind of thing.

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Speaker 1: It's very very it's very few. Yeah, crazy. Let's pivot

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Speaker 1: to to just talk about some of the things that

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Speaker 1: you've been up to in terms of solutions. First of all,

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Speaker 1: you started a movement called hashtag I Respect Music, and

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Speaker 1: as a part of that, you know, you've said that

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Speaker 1: you were against the way streaming companies treat musicians, but

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Speaker 1: you're not against streaming itself, and I wonder if you

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Speaker 1: could break that down for us. You know, I love streaming,

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Speaker 1: I love its convenience, I love making playlists, I love

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Speaker 1: I love lots of things about it. But you know,

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Speaker 1: so how can I love streaming but be against the

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Speaker 1: way streaming is affecting musicians. Just because I'm saying that

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Speaker 1: we should be paid fairly and unscrupulous, you know, corporations

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Speaker 1: like Spotify should be reformed. That doesn't mean that I

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Speaker 1: think streaming is the problem. So who is getting it right?

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Speaker 1: You've mentioned Apple? Is it sounds like better? Um? Are

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Speaker 1: there other services that you feel like are are doing

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Speaker 1: a better job. All of the major dreaming services are

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Speaker 1: doing a better job than Spotify. Apple is better, far

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Speaker 1: from perfect, but they're better. Title far from perfect, better either,

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Speaker 1: actually maybe one of the best. Right. I was very

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Speaker 1: excited back in the day when Title launched, you know,

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Speaker 1: because it seemed like they had real some some very

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Speaker 1: famous artists backing and and the proposition appeared to be

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Speaker 1: to create a service that was pro artist and try

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Speaker 1: to get consumers of music to adopt that platform as

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Speaker 1: a as a kind of rebellion against the way that

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Speaker 1: musicians are treated in the industry. But it doesn't appear

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Speaker 1: that Title has has taken off. What what went wrong there?

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Speaker 1: I think that they really had their hearts in the

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Speaker 1: right place, and I think they still do. Um, that's

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Speaker 1: the platform you want to be on as a subscriber

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Speaker 1: if you really care about Audio's a really good example.

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Speaker 1: But I think that they really bundled their press conference

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Speaker 1: because the way that they came out is that they

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Speaker 1: had all of these mega stars at their press conference

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Speaker 1: at their launch, and they were all talking about how

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Speaker 1: they weren't paid enough. And it's true, they're not paid enough,

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Speaker 1: But the problem with that tack is that then what

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Speaker 1: listeners do is they see a press conference like like that,

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Speaker 1: and they're like, why do I care if Madonna isn't

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Speaker 1: getting enough money? She's got millions of dollars, Why don't care?

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Speaker 1: Fiance is not. And what I wish that they had

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Speaker 1: done in their press conferences if they had had in

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Speaker 1: a row on stage, if they'd had Madonna and to

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Speaker 1: her left a music teacher, and to the music teachers

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Speaker 1: left Jay Z and this is and the sound engineer

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Speaker 1: and the carpenter who builds the recording student, and the

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Speaker 1: guy who's driving the van, and the woman who's setting

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Speaker 1: up merch because all of those people are funded as

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Speaker 1: part of our music industry. So I think that's the

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Speaker 1: mistake that they made. Um it was a pr mistake,

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Speaker 1: but I do think that their hearts are in the

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Speaker 1: right place, just following the thread of changes that that

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Speaker 1: need to be made. Are there legislative avenues to solve

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Speaker 1: this problem? I think that legislation is one way to go.

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Speaker 1: I think digislation is going to be much more helpful

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Speaker 1: when it comes to the battle that we have with radio,

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Speaker 1: which you know, some of your listeners may not even

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Speaker 1: know that artists don't get paid anything for radio airplay

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Speaker 1: in the United States. The United States is the only

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Speaker 1: democratic country in the world where artists don't get paid

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Speaker 1: for radio air That just blows me away. Has that

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Speaker 1: always been true? Always been true? The only countries in

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Speaker 1: the world that share the distinction with the United States

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Speaker 1: or North Korea, Iran and China. Nice good company. You

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Speaker 1: meant yes, you mentioned I respect music, which is something

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Speaker 1: of an homage to Aretha Franklin, because Aretha Franklin never

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Speaker 1: got paid one dime for for respect being on the

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Speaker 1: radio United States, which is insane. That's insane, It's completely insane.

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Speaker 1: It's completely insane. And um That also impacts the streaming debate,

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Speaker 1: and it impacts the struggle with Spotify, because what Spotify

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Speaker 1: says to musicians is, hey, listen, we don't pay you

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Speaker 1: a lot, but you know what, it's better than nothing,

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Speaker 1: and you get nothing on radio. So if we can

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Speaker 1: close the loophole that big, big radio has enjoyed for

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Speaker 1: a hundred years, that's going to actually really effects how

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Speaker 1: we're able to propressure on streaming services, which we want

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Speaker 1: to do. You know, it's interesting other parts of the

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Speaker 1: media business went through this after the music business and

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Speaker 1: seemed to have recovered. Like there was a period of

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Speaker 1: time when there was a big there was a collapse

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Speaker 1: of of many journalistic entities because people were getting their

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Speaker 1: news for free and didn't want to pay, And it

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Speaker 1: turns out that for the right outlet, people will pay

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Speaker 1: for it. Have we trained people at this point that

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Speaker 1: music should be free and is the problem untraining them? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a big part of you know, a major problem

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Speaker 1: that Spotify has that I've talked about often is Spotify

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Speaker 1: doesn't make anything. Do you see the motion picture industry

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Speaker 1: or the television industry or actor's equity up in arms

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Speaker 1: about Netflix or HBO or Apple? No, you know why,

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Speaker 1: because Netflix makes things, They make stranger things, which employs

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Speaker 1: gaffers and carpenters and screenwriters and actually right, they make things.

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Speaker 1: Spotify doesn't make anything. So again, there are a distribution

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Speaker 1: platform and they take thirty of revenue. Why why are

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Speaker 1: they taking to upload my my music to the magical interweb?

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Speaker 1: And there's another thing that Spotify I could do that

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Speaker 1: would really change things, and in fact that this is

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Speaker 1: something Apple could do. All of the major streaming services

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Speaker 1: have a payment model outside of Deezer. Deezer is the

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Speaker 1: one that's changed, and your listeners may not notice either.

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Speaker 1: But you may think that I get paid a certain

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Speaker 1: fraction of a penny per stream when I'm streamed on

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Speaker 1: Spotify or Apple, but I'm actually not. There's no streaming

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Speaker 1: rate nor is Like if you have a ten dollar

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Speaker 1: subscription to a streaming service Spotify, Apple, something like that,

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Speaker 1: you'd think that the people you listen to are splitting

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Speaker 1: the seven dollars of your ten dollars, like in other words,

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Speaker 1: that your seven dollars is going to the people that

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Speaker 1: you listen to. But that's not the way it works

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Speaker 1: at all. The major streaming come copanies outside of Deezer

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Speaker 1: and SoundCloud has changed as well. They use a pro

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Speaker 1: radar system where all of the streams are put into

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Speaker 1: a pool divided by the amount of streams, and then

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Speaker 1: you get paid by the amount of market share you

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Speaker 1: have in that pool. Because Beyonce has a larger market

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Speaker 1: share than I do, it means that she's actually getting

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Speaker 1: paid more money from my streams than I am. It's

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Speaker 1: not a listener centric model, obviously. The way it should

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Speaker 1: work the artist, the artist who gets listened to should

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Speaker 1: get paid, should get that s exactly. And what that

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Speaker 1: would do just the obvious thing of like, well, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, you don't even get paid for the streams

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Speaker 1: that you're actually receiving. What that would do is that

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Speaker 1: would shore up local artists, niche artists, niche genres as

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Speaker 1: opposed to the constant gravity pool of mainstream gigantic pop music.

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Speaker 1: And it wouldn't cost them anything. It's the same seven dollars.

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Speaker 1: It's just going to the right people. So what what's

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Speaker 1: it going to take? I saw that a bill has

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Speaker 1: been introduced uh the American Music Fairness Act. What's the

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Speaker 1: status of that? Would that begin to level the playing

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Speaker 1: field for artists? American Music Fairness Act would actually finally

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Speaker 1: close the loophole and and American broadcast radio would have

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Speaker 1: to pay artists for radio play. Yes, just just like

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Speaker 1: the rest of the world. Is it going to pass? Well,

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Speaker 1: we're really hopeful, and it was just introduced into the

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Speaker 1: United States Senate, so it has a lot of momentum

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Speaker 1: um and we find like this is the farthest that

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Speaker 1: this bill has ever gotten. There's been versions of this

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Speaker 1: bill earlier, but there's a different kind of ground swell now.

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Speaker 1: I think that listeners, music lovers, and music makers have

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Speaker 1: really come together with this bill and said, well, wait

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Speaker 1: a minute, there's a lot of things that we can't fix,

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Speaker 1: and this is not one of those. This is easy

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Speaker 1: to fix. To one, how does Spotify think about this? Um?

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Speaker 1: You were you were part of a meeting with Spotify

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Speaker 1: execs uh with some artists a few years back, and

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Speaker 1: it ended in a debate. But can you talk about

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Speaker 1: your experience in that meeting? Sure? So I was invited

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Speaker 1: to this so called artists only meeting with Spotify about artists,

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Speaker 1: and uh. It turned out that it was kind of

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Speaker 1: a trojan horse. They had several artists that nobody had

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Speaker 1: heard of on a panel, all just touting how wonderful

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Speaker 1: Spotify is. And then people in the audience started raising

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Speaker 1: their hand and saying, excuse me, what the hell is

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Speaker 1: going on here? What what we were supposed to have

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Speaker 1: a dialogue here, you're preaching to us about what your

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Speaker 1: whole platform is about. So it became very contentious, and

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Speaker 1: as you would imagine, I was a vocal participant in

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Speaker 1: the meeting and uh and afterwards, um, a bunch of

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Speaker 1: exects from the company sort of you know, surrounded me

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Speaker 1: and we were talking and they're like, Blake, I just

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Speaker 1: don't understand where why do you say these things like

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Speaker 1: our product is so fantastic, it's the best product there is.

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Speaker 1: And another guy would say, Blake, I think if you

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Speaker 1: understood more about our product, like you realize that it's

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Speaker 1: just the greatest thing that's ever happened. But they get

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Speaker 1: really emotional, and I said, Fellas, you know, you keep

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Speaker 1: using this word product and I'm just curious, what do

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Speaker 1: you think your product is? And the executives said, what

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Speaker 1: do you mean Our product is Spotify? And I said, no, Fellas,

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Speaker 1: it's not Spotify. Your product is music. You're confusing the

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Speaker 1: word product with the word brand. And the guy I

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Speaker 1: was talking to you went, you know, man, you're crazy. Man,

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Speaker 1: it's crazy. It is our product is. And I had

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Speaker 1: to say, like, you know, while we're at it. By

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Speaker 1: the way, stop calling people users. They're not users their listeners.

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Speaker 1: You're the user. You're using our music to monetize our

428
00:25:35,359 --> 00:25:38,840
Speaker 1: little listeners for your profit. That's what you're doing. And

429
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 1: you really looked at me like I shot Santa Clause

430
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,480
Speaker 1: in the face. You know, But that's I think it's

431
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: an important story. It's it's it's funny, but you know,

432
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: that's not what happens when you talk to broadcasters. It's

433
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:54,160
Speaker 1: very specific with Spotify, and it's a really like religious

434
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 1: atmosphere over there where you feel like you're talking to creepy,

435
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: weird cult people. And I'm not having a go just

436
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 1: to like be mean. It really just is like that,

437
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 1: and that story kind of illustrates them. Yeah. Um, so

438
00:26:08,800 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: I want to wrap up with with two questions. First

439
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:17,159
Speaker 1: of all, um, if you were Daniel Eck, what are

440
00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: the things that you would do to change Spotify. I'll

441
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 1: give you three, all of which he could do by

442
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 1: the end of the day today. The first is he

443
00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 1: could do away with his free tier. Music should not

444
00:26:28,800 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 1: be free. Okay, it's morally wrong, it's it's uh, it's

445
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 1: a bad business practice. So he should do away with

446
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: the free treat free tier number one, number two. As

447
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:42,680
Speaker 1: I outlined before, the people who get strained are the

448
00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 1: people who should be paid. I should be paid for

449
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,960
Speaker 1: the streams eye garner. Other people shouldn't be paid for them.

450
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: It would save UM niche artists, It would save UH

451
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 1: fringe artists, It would it would be would be a

452
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 1: huge boon to jazz music, classical music, big band music,

453
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:02,000
Speaker 1: blue ask music, and on and on and on. So

454
00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,160
Speaker 1: that's the other thing. Switching to the listener centric model.

455
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,159
Speaker 1: He could do that by sundown doesn't cost Spotify anything.

456
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: It's the same seven dollars just going to the right people.

457
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,119
Speaker 1: And the third thing he could do he could do

458
00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: away with the counter, the number next to all of

459
00:27:15,640 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: the songs on Spotify that tell you how many times

460
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: it's been streams. Interesting, what's the virtue of this number?

461
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: I get that Tom Waits's music is not less valuable

462
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: because it's been listened to less than Nickelback. Right, So

463
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: that's the third that's the third thing he could do,

464
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: And there are many others, but those three things he

465
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 1: could do by midnight tonight. Man, Yeah, I love that.

466
00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: I love all three of those. Okay, last question on

467
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,159
Speaker 1: this show, Blake, we have a tool called the b

468
00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: S Scale. It goes from zero to one hundred, zero

469
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:51,760
Speaker 1: being the best zero bs, one hundred being the worst

470
00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: total BS. So on that scale, what score would you

471
00:27:56,080 --> 00:28:04,520
Speaker 1: give Spotify? Okay, that was definitive, Blake. This has been

472
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 1: a fantastic and illuminating conversation. I want to thank you

473
00:28:08,760 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: for coming on the show today. Well, thanks so much

474
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: for having me, folks. At this point, my BS detector

475
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 1: is playing highway to the danger zone. The bottom line

476
00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,159
Speaker 1: here is that Spotify spends a lot of money on

477
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,960
Speaker 1: their brand, but they don't fairly compensate the people who

478
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 1: actually create their product. After speaking with Blake, it's clear

479
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,960
Speaker 1: that the b S and the music industry extends way

480
00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 1: beyond Spotify. Blake was so demoralized by record labels that

481
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 1: he was compelled to start his own. I also cannot

482
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 1: believe that every single radio station in the US plays

483
00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,960
Speaker 1: music without paying for it. I really can't believe that

484
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: that's insane. The good news is there are real opportunities

485
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: here for Spotify to change their tune and better support

486
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: the artists who's support them. So we've assembled a panel

487
00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: of industry experts to help them make that shift right

488
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: after the break clip the record check on the B side. Folks,

489
00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 1: I am very excited to introduce two industry experts who

490
00:29:25,800 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: are going to help us help Spotify better live their

491
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:32,880
Speaker 1: stated purpose. Our first guest is two time Grammy winning

492
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: artist and executive producer Cadence. Cadence, Thanks for being here

493
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:41,960
Speaker 1: and welcome to calling bullshit. I'm happy to be here.

494
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me so, Cadence. I'd love it

495
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 1: if you could just tell us a little bit about yourself.

496
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: I started off as an artist and then I fell

497
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: in love with songwriting. Once I decided to move out

498
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: to l A. Um was when really things changed for me.

499
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: I would say like it was a very creative, but

500
00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking so much business. Uh So when I

501
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:12,880
Speaker 1: came out to l A I really got uh slapped

502
00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: in the face with the reality of business. You know.

503
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 1: I've had some some really big records, thank You, Next

504
00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: Seven Rings, Black Parade, Um, to name a few, and

505
00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: you would think that I would be well off. Um. So,

506
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: you know, while they had a budget for this in

507
00:30:32,600 --> 00:30:38,360
Speaker 1: the past before streaming really hit, there's not that now. Now.

508
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: It's almost like they expect these songwriters to just do

509
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: it for free. So I hopped into executive producing. I

510
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:47,800
Speaker 1: saw that you were on the board of an organization

511
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 1: called the Hundred per Centers. Can you talk more about

512
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,280
Speaker 1: what theer is all about. Sure, Yeah, we're all about

513
00:30:56,320 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 1: advocating for creative rights, UM, just sustainable income. We're just

514
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: advocating for change all over the board. UM even to

515
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: this day, like people, active listeners, consumers don't just don't

516
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 1: understand how music or streaming works. But I think if

517
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: people were more aware of the effects and you know,

518
00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: the the issues, that there would be a shift because

519
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: it's it's more than just the artists. Like, yes, of

520
00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: course the artist is a very major part of this,

521
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: but the the collaborators, the creatives behind the music, UM

522
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: are the ones that are are hurting even more. Thank you.

523
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,440
Speaker 1: And we'll return to that theme a little bit later

524
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: in the show as well, Cadence, because we want to

525
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 1: dig into all of that. UM. But but I want

526
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 1: to introduce our our next guest. Next up, we have

527
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:55,400
Speaker 1: David Turner, who is the writer of a widely read

528
00:31:55,440 --> 00:31:59,520
Speaker 1: newsletter on music streaming called Penny Fractions. David, welcome to

529
00:31:59,560 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 1: the show. I'm gonna say hey, hey, everybody, thank you

530
00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 1: for having me on today. So, David, could you tell

531
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 1: us a little bit about yourself in your background? Yeah,

532
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: totally so. Yeah. So my day job is I a

533
00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: strategy manager of SoundCloud, or i've been the last four years.

534
00:32:13,000 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: Prior to that, I was a music journalist where I

535
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: sort of covered different parts of the music industry, did

536
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 1: a lot of reviews, interviews, features, covered a lot of

537
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 1: like viral trends. So, I mean, I've been a fan

538
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: of music for most of my life. I like playing guitar.

539
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 1: I like thought about maybe could I DJ, but never

540
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,040
Speaker 1: really took it that seriously, don't have the talent, but

541
00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:32,360
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm pretty good at writing. So that's

542
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: one thing I sort of kept up, which I do

543
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: be in my news letter of Penny Fractions, which I've

544
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: been doing for almost five years, which yes, like you said,

545
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:41,200
Speaker 1: covered streaming, but also many parts of the music. This

546
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,360
Speaker 1: sometimes we get a little bit of history of of

547
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,040
Speaker 1: different music companies. So yeah, it's something that I've been

548
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:48,280
Speaker 1: really passionate about the last few years and been really

549
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:51,400
Speaker 1: excited to like see where it's gone to take great well,

550
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 1: I feel really lucky to have you both on the show. Uh,

551
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: let's get right into it. Cadence, I'm gonna ask you

552
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: to lead us off in two minute are less. What

553
00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:05,720
Speaker 1: would you tell CEO Daniel Eck to change at Spotify

554
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: to better live their purpose, which, just to remind folks,

555
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: is to unlock the potential of human creativity by giving

556
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: a million creative artists the ability to live off their

557
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,680
Speaker 1: art and billions of fans the opportunity to enjoy and

558
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 1: be inspired by it. I would say, for one, I

559
00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:29,520
Speaker 1: think right now the Spotify premium is um I think

560
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 1: that can for one, be increased, as well as just

561
00:33:34,200 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: having transparency about where this money is going. I feel

562
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: like they kind of just wipe their hands and say, hey, um,

563
00:33:43,080 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 1: you know it's the label's fault. And I just think

564
00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: that in order for everyone to feel like this is

565
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: fair and uh just understand how this is being distributed,

566
00:33:56,080 --> 00:34:02,320
Speaker 1: that we just need transparency, we need we need receipts. Right. Yeah,

567
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,320
Speaker 1: So can you talk a little bit more about the

568
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,799
Speaker 1: transparency part of your idea because that feels important to me.

569
00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: If your purpose is to help artists live off live

570
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 1: off their art, right, fans need to know how the

571
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: system actually works. And I don't think a lot of

572
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:23,399
Speaker 1: fans really do. Right for right now, we know UH

573
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 1: that we get penny's worth of a dollar for UH

574
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: for streaming, but we don't necessarily as far as transparency.

575
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,920
Speaker 1: We don't know what the agreements are between the labels

576
00:34:37,120 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 1: and Spotify, Spotify or any streaming platform for for that matter.

577
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 1: And because of that, we don't know where half of

578
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,000
Speaker 1: these funds are going to and like what we're actually

579
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: getting paid. It just feels messy, it feels secretive, and

580
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,799
Speaker 1: so I think if we have a better understanding of

581
00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 1: how that's that's happening. I mean, I'm looking at like,

582
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,799
Speaker 1: remember over the pandemic, I'm trying to think it was

583
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 1: billions of dollars that went to the labels that they

584
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:18,640
Speaker 1: proudly spoke about openly, And I'm sitting here looking at

585
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: my statements and I'm like, whoa that it just doesn't

586
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: add up. Um, you know, like, how how is it

587
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 1: that I have these songs and and my b and

588
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 1: my statements even over the pandemic, Like I I could

589
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 1: not even make rent for the next two months, Like

590
00:35:38,080 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 1: that's that doesn't make sense. Yeah, that's crazy. David, do

591
00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:44,239
Speaker 1: you have any thoughts on on what Cadence has been

592
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,440
Speaker 1: talking about totally. So I'm going to say I think

593
00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 1: the first idea about increasing the amount of money that

594
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:51,760
Speaker 1: subscription costs makes a lot of sense. That's an idea

595
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 1: that I think many folks across the music industry. What's

596
00:35:54,280 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: the part and it's something that I know many folks

597
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 1: have been wanting to sort of get behind. I think

598
00:35:57,840 --> 00:35:59,879
Speaker 1: the biggest issue is I think many people aren't sure

599
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: customers are willing to take that sort of increase on

600
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: their subscriptions, especially when there are a number of streaming

601
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 1: services out here. But it certainly I understand that the

602
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: need and sort of the import of increasing how much

603
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: the subscription goes needs more money can go to songwriters

604
00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,319
Speaker 1: and recording artists, So that totally makes a lot of

605
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,960
Speaker 1: sense to me. And then around the issue of transparency,

606
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:18,759
Speaker 1: just to be real quick, is uh, I think that

607
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: one is also another one where like, yeah, a little

608
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: bit more transparency and clarity around how money move and

609
00:36:24,040 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 1: money pay payments go I think would be helpful. I

610
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,839
Speaker 1: do think that is something broadly speaking, is that like

611
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: every part of the industry sort of needs like step

612
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 1: up to sort of help with that. Not always all

613
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 1: on the DSP. It's not always I mean, I guess

614
00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 1: it's a lot quite a bit on the labels and

615
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:40,160
Speaker 1: the contracts you actually end up signing, so that actually

616
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 1: is where a lot of that ends up resting. But

617
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 1: it is something where like their needs to be some

618
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: kind of sort of agreed upon way to try to

619
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 1: clear up some of this confusion. Yeah, I was reading

620
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: an article just on the price raies. Point like Rhapsody

621
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,160
Speaker 1: charged ten bucks a month in two thousand and two

622
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: and Spotify charges ten bucks a month in two and

623
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: if you just adjust for inflation, Spotify should be charging

624
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 1: this article said fifteen fifty and that's just just to break,

625
00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, to stay even. And in that time Netflix

626
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: has gone from eight bucks to fifteen fifty a month.

627
00:37:14,520 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 1: And you know, another thing that they do that I

628
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: wasn't aware of is they do a lot of discounting.

629
00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: So they have a student plan that's like five bucks

630
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: a month, and they have a family plan, and all

631
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 1: of that cuts into the amount of money that they

632
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,000
Speaker 1: come they bring in and and therefore can distribute to artists.

633
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,680
Speaker 1: And so cleaning that up would be another aspect of

634
00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: of raising their price right to to help get more

635
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:41,919
Speaker 1: money to the artists. Okay, David, your turn in two

636
00:37:41,920 --> 00:37:45,280
Speaker 1: minutes or less? What advice would you give Daniel ac Oh?

637
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 1: They advice that out and kept act. I think would

638
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 1: be maybe a little bit less of advice and more

639
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 1: of a question that I think could be sort of

640
00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: turned into sort of broader advice. My question would be

641
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:54,839
Speaker 1: that if you're going to have a million artists sort

642
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: of make a living on your platform, how do you

643
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,280
Speaker 1: plan to actually sort of like support those million artists.

644
00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 1: How many people are gonna be working at Spotify? How

645
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: many more tens of thousands of people do you need

646
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:05,040
Speaker 1: to like handle all of that? Are you gonna be

647
00:38:05,080 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: helping out with healthcare? It's all like there's a lot

648
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 1: of like questions to me that when I sort of

649
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 1: see here that mission statement, I think and it's very

650
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,919
Speaker 1: grandiose and and and aspires to a lot and on

651
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: one part of it, the sense of having a million

652
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 1: a billion fans like Spotify as like hundreds of millions

653
00:38:19,800 --> 00:38:21,839
Speaker 1: of listeners, so like they are like well on their

654
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:23,920
Speaker 1: way to that, But as far as like a million

655
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 1: artists that are making a living, they're certainly not on

656
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:27,920
Speaker 1: the on the way to that. In the same in

657
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: the same sort of subjectory. Just to what David said,

658
00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 1: I think that is a very strong question, especially for

659
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 1: artists that aren't signed to major labels, because major labels are,

660
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 1: you know, technically the biggest shareholders of Spotify, so they

661
00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 1: control most of it. They control those playlists, they control

662
00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: you know, their artists getting more plays in these indie artists.

663
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:54,920
Speaker 1: You know, I don't see these indie artists invited to

664
00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 1: these Spotify branches. I see major label a major artist. Um,

665
00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:05,080
Speaker 1: so how are you really leveling the playing field so

666
00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 1: that you give these indie artists an equal chance? Yeah,

667
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 1: And I've heard that the way that that Spotify pays artists,

668
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,400
Speaker 1: and and this is I'm still trying to get my

669
00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:21,000
Speaker 1: head around this. Like I, as I understand it, you're

670
00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 1: not actually paid per stream even on Spotify as an artist.

671
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 1: The money goes to the rights owners, and then that

672
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: money then goes to the artists, and it's a portion

673
00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:37,880
Speaker 1: based on essentially averages, you know, the percentage of streams

674
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: on the platform that belonged to Beyonce. Then Beyonce gets

675
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: uh that percentage of money. But it means that Beyonce

676
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 1: in one way, as I understand it, Beyonce is getting

677
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:52,600
Speaker 1: a percentage on lots of indie artists streams as well

678
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,640
Speaker 1: because of the way that they do the accounting. And

679
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 1: so I've seen people advocate for a more direct model

680
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 1: there that like you actually pay your money as a

681
00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 1: listener because they know who you are and they know

682
00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: what you're paying them, that your money goes directly to

683
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,160
Speaker 1: the artists that that you're listening to. What do you

684
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 1: think about that? Yeah, so I'll just speak on the

685
00:40:15,800 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: recording side. Yes, what you said is correct, where it's

686
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 1: like all the money is sort of accrudance is sort

687
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:21,840
Speaker 1: of a big pot they said in the industry is

688
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: called sort of the pro rottle model. So, for example,

689
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 1: with Beyonce dropped her like this album and she had

690
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 1: seven percent of total streams that week, she would she

691
00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: and the rest of the folks on the album will

692
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: be seven percent of over of the overall pot of

693
00:40:34,800 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: revenue generating in that period of time. So yeah, so

694
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: it does sort of work out where if you were

695
00:40:39,600 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: paying a Spotify subscription or an Apple Music or Amazon

696
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,439
Speaker 1: subscription and you do not listen to Beyonce, you're some

697
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 1: seven some part of your money would still be going

698
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,919
Speaker 1: towards Beyonce and the work, the work that she did

699
00:40:49,960 --> 00:40:52,319
Speaker 1: on that on that release. And yes, the other thing

700
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 1: that you're sort of hinting at with this thing called

701
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 1: the use a centric model, which I guess it's been

702
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: sort of mentioned by a number of companies like Deezer,

703
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,960
Speaker 1: which is a French music fiom so can also title

704
00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:03,840
Speaker 1: I think of maybe years ago. And also it's SoundCloud.

705
00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:07,840
Speaker 1: Actually in summer, SoundCloud announced a partnership with one Er

706
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,840
Speaker 1: Music Group where we actually we're now playing out artists

707
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: on one or one of the big three major labels

708
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 1: on the eccentric model along with artist that directly distribute

709
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 1: through through the platform. So but again that is all

710
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,800
Speaker 1: just on the recording side. On the publishing on the

711
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,800
Speaker 1: songwriter side is slightly different, like the way that's handled

712
00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 1: very yeah, very different. Uh, our money goes through the publishers,

713
00:41:29,800 --> 00:41:34,439
Speaker 1: so we get what we get and yeah, we have

714
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 1: no control over over it. We feel like the powerless

715
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 1: m hmm. Yeah, and so somebody needs to take the

716
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: artist's side. So why don't we use that as a

717
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:51,759
Speaker 1: moment to pivot to my my idea and again be savage.

718
00:41:51,800 --> 00:41:54,760
Speaker 1: I'm a total rookie here. So what I take away

719
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,920
Speaker 1: is that Spotify actually is in like a vice or

720
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:01,319
Speaker 1: you know, another to four would be between a rock

721
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:05,800
Speaker 1: and a hard place, because all of their competitors also

722
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: charged ten bucks a month, and so Spotify as a

723
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: service is basically an undifferentiated commodity, and commodities have trouble

724
00:42:16,920 --> 00:42:20,879
Speaker 1: raising their prices to make matters worse. You know, two

725
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: of their competitors are Apple and Amazon, and Apple and

726
00:42:25,160 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: Amazon can afford to lose money forever in music just

727
00:42:29,080 --> 00:42:33,400
Speaker 1: because uh, music isn't their main job. It's a side

728
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: hustle to them. And so to get out of this vice,

729
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: Spotify has to innovate. And you've seen them trying, like

730
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,720
Speaker 1: they tried video and that didn't work. They've tried actually

731
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:46,760
Speaker 1: going around the rights holders by by you know, cutting

732
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 1: direct distribution deals with some artists, and that didn't work

733
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 1: because the labels pushed back. Now they're trying podcasting and

734
00:42:55,440 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: that led to the Joe Rogan debacle. And so as

735
00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:02,520
Speaker 1: I thought about, like what they do have, they have

736
00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 1: two things. They have a great artist centric purpose, this

737
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 1: idea that they want to take a million artists and

738
00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:10,839
Speaker 1: make it so they can live off their art, which

739
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:14,880
Speaker 1: I love and they have scale. They're big, um I

740
00:43:14,920 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 1: think four hundred and six million monthly actives currently. So

741
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:23,400
Speaker 1: my idea is for Spotify to become a laboratory for

742
00:43:23,600 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: artists centric innovation, to continue to innovate themselves. But also,

743
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 1: and maybe this will be controversial, I don't know, but

744
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:34,560
Speaker 1: also to look across the industry for other really good

745
00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:38,960
Speaker 1: ideas that that other platforms are trying but maybe don't

746
00:43:39,000 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: have Spotify scale like Title, and adopt it to scale it.

747
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:48,400
Speaker 1: So to use their scale for good is the essence

748
00:43:48,440 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 1: of my idea. And I'll continue to use Title because

749
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:53,879
Speaker 1: I was reading an article in a in a thing

750
00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 1: called louder Sound, and I'll just read from this article.

751
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 1: Title recently unveiled their direct artist pay up plan and

752
00:44:00,560 --> 00:44:05,239
Speaker 1: which sees ten percent of your subscription going directly to

753
00:44:05,280 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 1: the artists that you listen to most. This initiative is

754
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 1: based on actual streaming activity of the fans versus the

755
00:44:11,640 --> 00:44:15,360
Speaker 1: industry accepted method of aggregating streams and allocating it to

756
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: the most popular artists. According to Title, uh so this

757
00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:21,520
Speaker 1: is a move. This is now the writer of this

758
00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:23,960
Speaker 1: article saying this is a move away from some other

759
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 1: payment plans and could cause a shift in the streaming industry.

760
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:29,799
Speaker 1: And so what I'm advocating for is, let's use it

761
00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,040
Speaker 1: to cause a shift in the industry. Let's Spotify adopt

762
00:44:33,120 --> 00:44:36,800
Speaker 1: this as well as well as any other great artists

763
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:41,080
Speaker 1: centric ideas across the industry and really deploy them at

764
00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:44,400
Speaker 1: scale to help fans support artists directly and take on

765
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:48,200
Speaker 1: the mantle of artists centricity, which is, you know, sits

766
00:44:48,239 --> 00:44:51,759
Speaker 1: at the center of their purpose. What do we think

767
00:44:51,760 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 1: about that pipe dream possibility? In many ways, I think

768
00:44:55,960 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: what you're sort of describing as kinds of me like Instagram.

769
00:44:58,360 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 1: Soon It's like on Snatchat they took on the story

770
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,640
Speaker 1: feature of Snapchat, and people are like, oh wait, Snapchat.

771
00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:05,719
Speaker 1: I love Snapchat. But now all of a sudden, it's

772
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 1: it is it is what I'm describing. Yeah, but I'm

773
00:45:09,360 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: trying to say for good because that that practice I

774
00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: think of as evil, like the whole Facebook empire. He

775
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,720
Speaker 1: Zuckerberg does this to put other companies out of business.

776
00:45:19,320 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: And what I'm saying is, since Spotify has skill, maybe

777
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: they could use it for good. Maybe Yeah, I don't know, Yeah, no,

778
00:45:25,280 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: I guess I guess the reason why that immediately jumped

779
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 1: to me with because I think of the perception of

780
00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 1: the users is that perception of users would probably immediately

781
00:45:31,840 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: go towards that doing this thing. I think because because

782
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,120
Speaker 1: if you say that you're doing this because you want

783
00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: to help, but if it's just topping someone else, you're like, oh,

784
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,439
Speaker 1: well wait, why are you helping by copy it didn't

785
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:47,000
Speaker 1: have any of your own ideas. I think that maybe

786
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 1: I think that maybe sort of especially as like a

787
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,720
Speaker 1: user of different platforms, and when all of a sudden,

788
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:54,359
Speaker 1: every platform to your point had the same price point

789
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden are the same features set,

790
00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,120
Speaker 1: you get a little less excited to hop between them

791
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 1: because you're like, oh, what if they're doubely different shape,

792
00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:03,200
Speaker 1: So you kind of need for the bigger company to

793
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:07,240
Speaker 1: kind of have more actual innovation in an actual different differentiation.

794
00:46:07,480 --> 00:46:09,719
Speaker 1: But to the specifics I will actually say, I do

795
00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: like that Tyle was saying this to someone yesterday, that

796
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: title actually has a number of really great features, Like

797
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 1: they actually highlight songwriters. They actually highlight producers of tracks,

798
00:46:18,239 --> 00:46:20,600
Speaker 1: so you can actually search for a producer, starch first songwriter.

799
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 1: There are a lot of things that title does that

800
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,600
Speaker 1: other platforms don't do. So I do think there is

801
00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: quite a bit actually there that that others could sort

802
00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: of take from sort of and sort of I and

803
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: sort of maybe poke poke poke away. But I yeah, sorry,

804
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:32,800
Speaker 1: I just want to rid a little because yeah, I

805
00:46:32,920 --> 00:46:38,719
Speaker 1: didn't know. It's it's it's it's a great I I agree, yeah,

806
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 1: you know, I think I think that would be great. Um,

807
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 1: I do think that it would be scary, uh, too

808
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:50,960
Speaker 1: scary for the labels. So while I love love that

809
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:53,640
Speaker 1: idea and hope that they do it, I think it's

810
00:46:54,680 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 1: far fetched right now because it's just they're making so much. Yeah, absolutely,

811
00:47:03,920 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 1: oh yeah, I mean they pretty much make the call

812
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,919
Speaker 1: on if anything changes. I think they think that they're

813
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 1: doing enough, at least for the songwriters. I mean, I

814
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 1: know you've seen they had secret genius before. Um they

815
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: have notable now where they post your picture as a

816
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: songwriter or producer on a billboard and say, wow, look

817
00:47:28,080 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 1: at this person. Um. But and while that's great because

818
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: it gets you exposure, it still isn't enough. And I

819
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: mean to think of how much money they're spending to

820
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 1: do that, where that can really go towards other things

821
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 1: are helping helping us in a different way, like pay

822
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: our rent. That's the other thing about this that I

823
00:47:56,520 --> 00:47:58,360
Speaker 1: find hard to get my head around, and I assume

824
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:01,160
Speaker 1: most casual music fans find they're hard to get their

825
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 1: head around, is just how complex the environment is. It's

826
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:07,319
Speaker 1: really hard to figure out how people get paid and

827
00:48:07,400 --> 00:48:11,040
Speaker 1: why they get paid, and even people in it are

828
00:48:11,120 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 1: confused by it, and people on the outside just I

829
00:48:14,000 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: think glaze over a little bit um, which is a

830
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 1: shame because I think, honestly, if fans really knew what

831
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,319
Speaker 1: was going on, they would do you know, if they

832
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 1: knew that they could directly support the artists that they love,

833
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,359
Speaker 1: I think they would do it. You know, I I

834
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:31,600
Speaker 1: really knew um. In this podcast, we do a single

835
00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:34,239
Speaker 1: guest up front for a kind of facts of the case,

836
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:36,800
Speaker 1: and then we do this roundtable, and our first guest

837
00:48:37,120 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 1: was an artist named Blake Morgan. Blake had an idea

838
00:48:40,640 --> 00:48:42,479
Speaker 1: that I wanted to run by both of you, which

839
00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: is essentially get rid of the free layer at Spotify,

840
00:48:49,640 --> 00:48:53,200
Speaker 1: because his perspective was, you can't say that you're trying

841
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,800
Speaker 1: to help artists make a living and give their music

842
00:48:55,840 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 1: away for free. Those two things just don't go together. Yeah, yeah,

843
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:07,240
Speaker 1: you agree with that. Oh yeah, yeah, I definitely understand

844
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:09,600
Speaker 1: the sort of economic need for getting rid of the

845
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:12,279
Speaker 1: free layer. As a consumer, I guess I started to

846
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 1: feel a little like, oh man, I kind of like

847
00:49:14,280 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 1: being able to like just go find a song, but

848
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,880
Speaker 1: I won't listen to for free. But that's also something

849
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:21,440
Speaker 1: that like, hey, I remember before YouTube, so I do

850
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:23,520
Speaker 1: remember what it was like before that was the case,

851
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,920
Speaker 1: and like it was fine. I don't know, there is

852
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 1: something to be said about like music not being always

853
00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 1: at once aingo tip, where the songs can sometimes have

854
00:49:30,800 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: a sort of different life and a different residency in

855
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: your life rather than it's like, oh I always have

856
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 1: immediate access to this thing. So yeah, I feel like that.

857
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:43,040
Speaker 1: Um that era, the Lime Wire era, where it was

858
00:49:43,120 --> 00:49:47,840
Speaker 1: like we were just able to download anything at any time. Um,

859
00:49:48,160 --> 00:49:51,400
Speaker 1: we kind of got caught into that mindset of like,

860
00:49:51,440 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 1: well I could just listen to it somewhere else for free,

861
00:49:53,880 --> 00:50:00,200
Speaker 1: and um, we're just not taking into consideration like the

862
00:50:00,200 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 1: the people that it affects effects, you know, It's it's

863
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,680
Speaker 1: a hard thing. Once once a habit has taken hold

864
00:50:07,760 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 1: with people and that and like a habit, like oh yeah,

865
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,800
Speaker 1: music is free. It's really really hard to break that habit. Again.

866
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:18,040
Speaker 1: That's happening sort of throughout the world. Not to get

867
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 1: too philosophical, but we live in the modern world in

868
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 1: a way in which things are convenient and we do

869
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: them because they're convenient and they're easy, and we're starting

870
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: to learn that things that are convenient and easy aren't

871
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:31,799
Speaker 1: necessarily good for the world. It's like, oh, I threw

872
00:50:31,840 --> 00:50:33,920
Speaker 1: away my water bottle because it was easy, but it

873
00:50:33,960 --> 00:50:35,880
Speaker 1: wound up in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, and

874
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:40,400
Speaker 1: so paying artists for music should fall into the same category.

875
00:50:40,440 --> 00:50:43,960
Speaker 1: It's like, free music has an impact on people's lives,

876
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:46,920
Speaker 1: you know. Maybe one thing that Spotify could do is

877
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: just do a better job of educating people about that

878
00:50:49,040 --> 00:50:52,400
Speaker 1: and really take an artist centric point of view on

879
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:56,640
Speaker 1: making sure that people understand that there are implications for artists,

880
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,200
Speaker 1: you know, and what those implications are. I mean, one

881
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 1: of the other questions I had for both of you,

882
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: I was looking on there's a service called Music Gateway,

883
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 1: and it allows you to compare what you would make

884
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 1: for a set number of streams as an artist on Spotify,

885
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 1: on a title on Pandora, on Amazon and Apple. So

886
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:23,359
Speaker 1: I did this math right? The bottom edge of what

887
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,560
Speaker 1: we consider to be the middle class in America is

888
00:51:26,640 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: thirty thousand dollars a year. I would say that's a

889
00:51:29,160 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: little stingy, but let's say thirty thousand dollars a year.

890
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 1: To make thirty thousand dollars a year on Spotify, you

891
00:51:36,640 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: would have to get about seven and a half million streams.

892
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: Right now, fifty two thousand, six hundred artists are making

893
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,000
Speaker 1: ten thousand dollars or more on the platform, so it's

894
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:51,839
Speaker 1: not even thirty thousand. So they've got a long way

895
00:51:51,880 --> 00:51:55,040
Speaker 1: to go to help. You know, a million artists make

896
00:51:55,080 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: a living off the platform. But the other interesting thing

897
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: was for the same number of stream on Apple, I

898
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,400
Speaker 1: would make thirty seven thousand, five hundred dollars on Amazon

899
00:52:04,480 --> 00:52:08,560
Speaker 1: the same on Title I would make ninety thousand bucks

900
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: off of seven million, five hundred thousand streams. So Title

901
00:52:12,560 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: stands out. So I guess the question there is why

902
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:21,480
Speaker 1: didn't Title do better? Uh? One, there's already the amount

903
00:52:21,480 --> 00:52:23,400
Speaker 1: of conversation when titled, so to enter the space I

904
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 1: think it entered around um so Spotify had already existed.

905
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,560
Speaker 1: YouTube YouTube have been around since the mid two thousands.

906
00:52:30,640 --> 00:52:32,759
Speaker 1: Spotify had sort of come into the United States and

907
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 1: in the early and it into the mobile platform in

908
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:39,239
Speaker 1: the mis um Apple Music it was also launching around then.

909
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: You still had people that are using Pandora and higher amounts,

910
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: and when titled only real again differentiation factor or more

911
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,160
Speaker 1: like sort of like aesthetic things of like again like

912
00:52:49,480 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: twenty out producers and songwriters and stuff like that, that

913
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 1: just wasn't not to differentiate it when it's overall content

914
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:58,400
Speaker 1: with the same content, it's basically every other platform and

915
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: title did try to have this clues an album for

916
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 1: like a very brief good of time in early and

917
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,680
Speaker 1: I think maybe in sen but they kind of moved

918
00:53:05,680 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 1: away from that when artists realized that putting your music

919
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 1: only on one platform really limits the audience potentially, right

920
00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: makes sense. One of the other observations that I have

921
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:20,280
Speaker 1: is like I have no context for what artist should

922
00:53:20,320 --> 00:53:24,560
Speaker 1: be paid per play. It's like minimum wage raising the

923
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:30,399
Speaker 1: minimum wage. Everybody knows roughly what that means, and so like,

924
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:32,960
Speaker 1: do either of you have an opinion about, like what

925
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:35,839
Speaker 1: is the right number per stream that artists should be

926
00:53:35,880 --> 00:53:40,400
Speaker 1: paid in order to create a more fair deal for them.

927
00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:45,360
Speaker 1: So I would love to know, um, what the labels

928
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,719
Speaker 1: are getting per per stream um. And that's what makes

929
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:52,480
Speaker 1: it hard. If if I could see those those receipts, yeah,

930
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: I would be right. And back to this transparency issue, right,

931
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:02,240
Speaker 1: it's all a big secret, like what's go went on? Um,

932
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: Maybe that would be a thing that Spotify could advocate

933
00:54:05,239 --> 00:54:08,839
Speaker 1: for that everybody know what everybody's making. Like that would

934
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:11,160
Speaker 1: be a huge step forward, wouldn't it. Yeah, it was

935
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: the only issue because I remember talking some about this

936
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:15,920
Speaker 1: very recently, is that, like it wouldn't behoove the labels

937
00:54:15,960 --> 00:54:17,880
Speaker 1: to have that that knowledge out there because then your

938
00:54:17,920 --> 00:54:21,640
Speaker 1: conversation undercut you or sort of undermine some of the

939
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: stuff that you're trying to do. Yeah, no, it's hard, right,

940
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: they would definitely resist that. But but if there was

941
00:54:28,400 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: just like I like I've been saying, and even playing

942
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:35,160
Speaker 1: field where the artists get what they get and it's

943
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,799
Speaker 1: not it doesn't have to be a private negotiation, well

944
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,759
Speaker 1: maybe it could be. Yeah, it could be aggregated and anonymised. Right,

945
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,760
Speaker 1: So you don't know exactly what the deal between Sony

946
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:49,240
Speaker 1: and and X is, but you know that ultimately Sony

947
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 1: is getting about this amount. Okay, my last question for

948
00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:58,560
Speaker 1: for both of you. Spotify says its purpose is to

949
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: give a million artists the opportunity to live off their art.

950
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 1: And as I said before, the fact is only fifty

951
00:55:06,080 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: two thousand, six hundred artists generated ten thousand or more

952
00:55:10,160 --> 00:55:13,279
Speaker 1: last year on Spotify, so they've got a ways to

953
00:55:13,360 --> 00:55:17,640
Speaker 1: go before they get to a million artists. We have

954
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:20,600
Speaker 1: a tool on this show called the BS index, which

955
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:24,279
Speaker 1: measures the gap between word indeed, and it goes from

956
00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: zero to one hundred, zero being the best, zero bs

957
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 1: one being the worst total BS. What score would each

958
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: of you give to Spotify? David, I'm gonna ask you

959
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 1: to go first on this one. I think my answer

960
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,279
Speaker 1: to the original question on public I put slight into

961
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:43,960
Speaker 1: what I'm about to say, but it would have to

962
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: be one D because having a million a million people

963
00:55:47,520 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: also ten thousand is not also like, that's not like,

964
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 1: I mean, that's not no, that's not making a living.

965
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: That's no, no, no, that's not I also want to

966
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: like to be like I think it's kind of said

967
00:55:59,080 --> 00:56:01,520
Speaker 1: as earlier that like even thirty or party thousand, if

968
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:08,839
Speaker 1: you're living in a major that's minimum ways. Yeah, yeah,

969
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,640
Speaker 1: that is more than likely a lot lot lower, so

970
00:56:12,680 --> 00:56:18,480
Speaker 1: I would go, like a hundred. Okay, alright, I'm a

971
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:22,239
Speaker 1: hundred percent with you. It's it's on a hundred. I

972
00:56:22,280 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 1: think they have plenty of ways to change this model,

973
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:32,240
Speaker 1: and I think they know their power and they're using

974
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:36,040
Speaker 1: the well what if what if we lose listeners? What

975
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:41,759
Speaker 1: if we do this? I mean everyone I know uses Spotify, So, um,

976
00:56:41,800 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 1: I think they know their power. I don't think the

977
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:49,680
Speaker 1: consumers are going anywhere. I think using the fact that

978
00:56:50,160 --> 00:56:55,280
Speaker 1: they can put more awareness out there and essentially become

979
00:56:55,320 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 1: an ally and if they can really be a voice

980
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:04,440
Speaker 1: for us, I think that would also translate into even

981
00:57:04,480 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: more consumers and more listeners and more supporters. Um so yeah,

982
00:57:10,600 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: m hm. This has been a fantastic conversation at David Cadence.

983
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:17,640
Speaker 1: I want to thank you both for being here today.

984
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,320
Speaker 1: It was wonderful to have you on the show. Thank

985
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,480
Speaker 1: you for having us, Thank you, thanks so much for

986
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 1: inviting Alright, folks, it's time to rate Spotify on the

987
00:57:28,040 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 1: B S scale. Spotify is certainly not giving a million

988
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,439
Speaker 1: artists the opportunity to live off their work. All three

989
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:39,040
Speaker 1: of our guests gave really high scores because of this,

990
00:57:40,800 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 1: and to one hundreds and that perspective totally makes sense.

991
00:57:45,960 --> 00:57:49,720
Speaker 1: Spotify has done little to provide artists with a living wage,

992
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 1: and there is so much more they might do to

993
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 1: support artists in a meaningful way, for instance getting rid

994
00:57:55,960 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 1: of their free tier or redistributing payment based on individuals

995
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: actual listening habits. However, their tools do provide artists with

996
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,440
Speaker 1: valuable audience metrics, and they have created a great platform

997
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: to get traction if you're a musician. That's not nothing

998
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 1: far from it. So today I'm giving Spotify a seventy

999
00:58:19,720 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 1: two and Spotify CEO Daniel Eck if you'd like to

1000
00:58:26,360 --> 00:58:28,800
Speaker 1: come on the show to talk about anything we've touched

1001
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:32,560
Speaker 1: on today, Please know that you have an open invitation.

1002
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: If you're thinking about starting a purpose led business or

1003
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: beginning the journey of transformation to become one, here are

1004
00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: three things you should take away from this episode. One,

1005
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:53,120
Speaker 1: make sure your purpose and your business model are aligned.

1006
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:57,800
Speaker 1: Free is never free. I feel like I've said this before,

1007
00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:02,479
Speaker 1: it's still true. When you sign up for Spotify's free level,

1008
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 1: somebody pays, even if it's not you. In Spotify's case,

1009
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,520
Speaker 1: it's the artists who you love and who Spotify claims

1010
00:59:10,560 --> 00:59:13,440
Speaker 1: to want to help make a living who paid the price.

1011
00:59:14,200 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 1: If you are going to make your product free, make

1012
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,360
Speaker 1: sure you're transparent about your business model and that it

1013
00:59:20,480 --> 00:59:27,520
Speaker 1: aligns with your purpose. Two. Your purpose must drive action.

1014
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:31,280
Speaker 1: If you can't make meaningful strides towards delivering on it,

1015
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 1: then it's not your real purpose. If Spotify's hands are

1016
00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:38,120
Speaker 1: actually tied by the record labels, as it seems like

1017
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,840
Speaker 1: they may be, they need to figure out how to

1018
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,800
Speaker 1: advocate on behalf of the musicians they claim to care

1019
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:48,840
Speaker 1: about to change that situation or change their purpose to

1020
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:55,120
Speaker 1: accurately reflect what they really stand for. Three. Become a

1021
00:59:55,280 --> 01:00:00,280
Speaker 1: force for transparency in your chosen industry. Transparency about your

1022
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:04,520
Speaker 1: own businesses table stakes. If your purpose led but purpose

1023
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: led businesses are actually trying to make the whole world

1024
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:11,960
Speaker 1: a better place, and better things happen in light than

1025
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:16,880
Speaker 1: in shadow. In Spotify's case, it's actually super hard to

1026
01:00:16,920 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: know how to help them help artists because it's very

1027
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 1: hard to understand where the money is going in the

1028
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:32,800
Speaker 1: music industry. They should try to fix that. And if

1029
01:00:32,840 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: this episode made you want to sing our praises, subscribe

1030
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:39,840
Speaker 1: to the Calling Bullshit podcasts on the I Heart Radio, app,

1031
01:00:40,120 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to people speaking to

1032
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,640
Speaker 1: your ears and friends. I'd like to ask for your help.

1033
01:00:46,960 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 1: If you enjoy the Calling Bullshit Podcast, please take a

1034
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: second to rate us on Apple Podcasts or on your

1035
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: preferred platform. It helps more people find the show. Thank

1036
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,760
Speaker 1: you to our guests today, Blake Morgan, Cadence and David Turner.

1037
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: Learn more about the I Respect Music campaign, the Centers

1038
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:10,360
Speaker 1: and David's newsletter Penny Fractions in our show notes or

1039
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:15,680
Speaker 1: at our website Calling Bullshit podcast dot com. And thanks

1040
01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: to our production team Hannah Beale, Amanda Ginsburg, d s Moss, Hailey, Pascalites,

1041
01:01:22,080 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: Parker Silzer and Basil Soaper. A little bit of good news,

1042
01:01:26,760 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: we recently learned that we are now the eleventh most

1043
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:35,280
Speaker 1: popular business podcast in the world. Kick Ass Job Team.

1044
01:01:35,280 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: Calling Bullshit was created by co Collective and it's hosted

1045
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,320
Speaker 1: by me Time Montague. Thanks for listening.