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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: The Devil's Den killer suspect can't stop tickling little girls.

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Speaker 2: According to disturbed parents at schools where he wants worked

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Speaker 2: tonight where you're learning, he was bounced.

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Speaker 1: From school to school to school.

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Speaker 2: Because of inappropriate behavior with little girls, but no one

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Speaker 2: ever fired him. That's how he ended up at the

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Speaker 2: murder scene. I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I

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Speaker 2: want to thank you for being with us. Devil's Den

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Speaker 2: killer snared a white.

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Speaker 3: Mail suspect wearing black clothes.

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Speaker 1: That's think it's going to be a white male, a

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Speaker 1: white male teacher wearing.

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Speaker 3: White gloves and rites in the dark colored pans, sunglasses,

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Speaker 3: dark colored pants and a dark colored cane top.

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Speaker 2: I don't care what any defense attorney wants to tell you.

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Speaker 2: And we have video of him in the last hours

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Speaker 2: in work with his brand new defense attorney. This guy

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Speaker 2: was not insane when he allegedly stabbed a mom and

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Speaker 2: dad dad on a family hiking trail as they tried

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Speaker 2: to protect their two little girls from what and here

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Speaker 2: he is and here is where it all started.

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Speaker 4: A medic for circular first responders sat Triflle. That's all

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Speaker 4: possible stabbing Devilston Say heart Brushing County received a call

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Speaker 4: from the visitor center to children are their They advised

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Speaker 4: that their parents were.

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Speaker 5: Assaulted one was possibly stabbed. The parents are missing.

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Speaker 6: You guys, has just security Debbleston, You're still round. Attacked

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Speaker 6: the mail and a female on Devilston Hiking trail and

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Speaker 6: then took off in a small black sports car with

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Speaker 6: tap Hofuly and we suspect the suspect of injuries due

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Speaker 6: to the witness seeing the suspect stab one of them.

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Speaker 2: Little did these ladies know they were inches away from

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Speaker 2: an alleged double chill.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a look at the video.

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Speaker 2: Notice that this guy in front of guy and everybody

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Speaker 2: just parks in the very front parking spot with the

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Speaker 2: vehicle everyone's looking for, which later was determined full of evidence,

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Speaker 2: including blood from the victims. He saunters up the front steps.

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Speaker 2: He's not even a little bit concerned. Again, this is

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Speaker 2: from Lupido's beauty salon, walking in. Notice how he keeps

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Speaker 2: his face down. We've heard that from the ladies in

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Speaker 2: the salon. They have repeatedly stated that, and as we

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Speaker 2: discussed last week, he is in to get all that

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Speaker 2: haircut off the back of his head. Gee, I wonder

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Speaker 2: why did it have anything to do with the fact

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Speaker 2: that he was pictured from behind with his hair coming

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Speaker 2: out from under his baseball cap. This is the photo

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Speaker 2: we're talking about. Now, let's go back to the Lupida

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Speaker 2: salon video. As he is in the salon, law enforcement

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Speaker 2: swarms the place.

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Speaker 1: Oh here he is sautry in and that reminds me.

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Speaker 2: Check out those shoes. Are those the shoes he wore

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Speaker 2: during the double murder. In a moment, I'm going to

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Speaker 2: circle back to Tom Green, former Washoe County Sheriff's office,

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Speaker 2: about potential evidence off the bottom of those shoes. Is

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Speaker 2: their blood on them? Is their soil from the scene?

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Speaker 2: You can never have enough evidence. And now I'm hearing

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Speaker 2: in my ear we have the video.

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Speaker 1: Of the arrest.

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Speaker 2: Let's say l e as they come in there, they

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Speaker 2: are plain clothes, all armed. The lady's scattering as they should.

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Speaker 2: He still has his salon cape on, and you see

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Speaker 2: his hair is getting buzzed up the back so he

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Speaker 2: won't look anything like he did on that photo.

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Speaker 1: And there he goes with no resistance.

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Speaker 2: Again, that is from surveillance video from Lupita's salon. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you better run, lady. She did the right thing. There

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Speaker 2: you see undercover armed three of them and more out

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Speaker 2: in the parking lot, arresting the alleged Devil's Den double

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Speaker 2: killer Andrew James McCann and what we have learned about him.

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Speaker 2: We'll circle back to the video and what we're learning

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Speaker 2: from it a lot, but straight out. Joining us at

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Speaker 2: the scene, Nanette Sosa. She has been coming Devil's Dan

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Speaker 2: Park formerly k n WA in Arkansas. Nanette, thank you

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Speaker 2: for being with us. What have you learned or today?

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Speaker 7: Everybody here at the salon is still nervous. They cannot

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Speaker 7: believe what's happened, and they too, are trying to put

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Speaker 7: together the pieces of why was their salon picked. A

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Speaker 7: white guy walks into a mostly Hispanic here salon. He's

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Speaker 7: not a regular customer. The salon's been here for decades.

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Speaker 8: Family.

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Speaker 7: Oh, they know their clientele, and here he just comes in,

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Speaker 7: does not even make eye contact, does not want to

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Speaker 7: sign in. They're worried already and they didn't even know

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Speaker 7: about him.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Sidney Sunder joining me in addition to Annette Sosa

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Speaker 2: Inett joining us from the scene. Sidney Sumner Crime Stories

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Speaker 2: investigative reporter, Sydney.

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Speaker 1: I've learned that he tried.

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Speaker 2: For two days to get a haircut, to go to

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Speaker 2: a salm, but he wouldn't sign in, he wouldn't give

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Speaker 2: his name, so he.

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Speaker 1: Could never get in.

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Speaker 2: Finally he gets to Lupita's and they take walkins. That's

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Speaker 2: how it happened, and it makes me wonder why he

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Speaker 2: was so obsessed with getting his hair done. Guys, I

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Speaker 2: haven't even gotten to what we have learned from previous

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Speaker 2: school districts where this guy was bounced from place to

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Speaker 2: place to place, tickling little girls uncontrollably take it having

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Speaker 2: them at private lunches a lot. But I want to

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Speaker 2: get back to Sidney, Sumner and Net Sydney. For two days,

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Speaker 2: this guy tried to get a haircut, that's what he's

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Speaker 2: thinking about after stabbing a mom and dad.

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Speaker 9: Dan Well, I think it's very clearly an attempt to

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Speaker 9: change his appearance. He knew that cops were zeroing in

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Speaker 9: on his image and he needed to change his hair,

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Speaker 9: maybe his clothing, maybe something about his face. He had

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Speaker 9: cuts on his hands, for goodness sake. It was very

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Speaker 9: clear that if anybody took more than two glances at

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Speaker 9: him in public, they might question whether out that everyone.

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Speaker 5: Is looking for.

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Speaker 9: So clearly he was just trying to change his appearance.

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Speaker 9: That's why he was so desperate for this haircut.

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Speaker 2: I think that's an answer, and so joining us formerly

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Speaker 2: KNWA in Arkansas, net. He was trying desperately to change

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Speaker 2: his appearance. And you know what is really scary. If

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Speaker 2: anything had gone sideways, he would have killed those ladies

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Speaker 2: if they had said.

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Speaker 1: Hey, you look like the Devil's Den guy.

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Speaker 2: I guarantee you there would have been violence at Lupeda salon.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely, and you don't know what weapons you have. We

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Speaker 7: knew about the stabbing, not to say he doesn't have

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Speaker 7: other weapons, but coming in not making eye contact, everybody

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Speaker 7: is friendly at this salon you might talk with. Everything

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Speaker 7: was going well and then this man skulks in looking down,

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Speaker 7: doesn't want to sign in and needs a haircut. And

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Speaker 7: he only lives but seven miles from this salon. So

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Speaker 7: whether he had scouted the area, looked around, he sat

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Speaker 7: in his car for a few minutes once he did

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Speaker 7: pull into this front parking lot right behind me, So

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Speaker 7: it was thought out he had some thoughts about that haircut.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's really interesting.

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Speaker 2: I'm going to throw this to Tom Green, joining us

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Speaker 2: former chief Deputy Washoe County Sheriff's off as homicide detective,

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Speaker 2: and so much more now PI, owner of Nevada Investigative Services.

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Speaker 1: Tom, thanks for being with us. You know what, have

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Speaker 1: you noticed.

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Speaker 2: That so many killers, well purps in general, violent purps.

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Speaker 1: That I've come in contact with anyway, they.

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Speaker 2: Pick out those that are weaker or less cunning than them,

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Speaker 2: for instance. And I'm about to get into it, but

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Speaker 2: I've got to show you in a moment the court

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Speaker 2: video that we have obtained of him and his first appearance.

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Speaker 2: But Tom Green, before I get to that, they pick

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Speaker 2: out targets weaker or less cunning than them. Think about

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Speaker 2: all the little girls he was teaching in third, fourth

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Speaker 2: fifth grade, tickling them uncontrollably. He can't, he can't stop.

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Speaker 2: Then picking out an unarmed mom and dad on a

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Speaker 2: hiking trail when he has a knife, and there have

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Speaker 2: been reports that it's similar to a Brian Coberger knife.

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Speaker 2: We don't know that yet, but we're trying to find

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Speaker 2: that out.

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Speaker 1: He picks on an unarmed mom and dad.

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Speaker 2: Then he goes into Lupita's hair, salon where there are

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Speaker 2: just a couple of ladies in there at that time

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Speaker 2: of the day. One of them has on bedroom shoes.

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Speaker 2: You know that you'd walk around inside on a lot

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Speaker 2: of people take off their regular shoes and they walk

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Speaker 2: around in socks or.

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Speaker 1: Slip ons inside.

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Speaker 2: My point is ladies, defenseless ladies. That's who he encounters.

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Speaker 2: Somebody that is unarmed, somebody that cannot defend themselves, someone

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Speaker 2: that is unaware, unsuspecting. He is a hyena, he is

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Speaker 2: a wolf, Tom Green looking for the weakest prey.

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Speaker 10: Well, I don't disagree, and we know that wolves and

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Speaker 10: other predators look for what they think they can take.

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Speaker 10: They don't look for things they think they can't take,

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Speaker 10: and this verywell could be that situation. I mean, the

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Speaker 10: way he was dressed in that photo doesn't look like

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Speaker 10: you're out for a hike in eighty five degree weather

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Speaker 10: with eighty five percent humanity.

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Speaker 2: Guys, we've obtained the court video. Under our constitution, everyone

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Speaker 2: being held behind bars, particularly with Nobel, has a right

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Speaker 2: within seventy two hours to go in front of a

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Speaker 2: judge and magistrate and be told what they're charged with.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a look at this guy. The alleged Devil's

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Speaker 2: Den double kill or in court.

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Speaker 8: And you are Andrew James P.

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Speaker 7: Yes, you're in talking today's for for your first appearance.

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Speaker 11: And parts are will be fed wood up to charges

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Speaker 11: property you have Roland just said it no lawn right now.

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Speaker 11: With your next court appearance for August fifth this year

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Speaker 11: at seven forty five am, that's going to be your

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Speaker 11: writing agents active attention center. There's been a finding me

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Speaker 11: that probably will cause you this attain that they might

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Speaker 11: have judged previously.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a look at that from the beginning. Let's

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Speaker 2: roll that one more time. We've transcribed it for you

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Speaker 2: so you can make out every word that stated in court.

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Speaker 2: Please roll it and you are Andrew James P.

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Speaker 11: Yes, you're in talking today's for for your first appearance

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Speaker 11: and purples are will be fus woe up to charges

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Speaker 11: property you know having working for the voland is set

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Speaker 11: at no lawn right now. With your next court appearance

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Speaker 11: for audi think of this year at seven forty five am,

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Speaker 11: that's going to be your undy.

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Speaker 7: Gat actor and attention center.

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Speaker 11: There's been in finding me that probable causes distentitaina was

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Speaker 11: made might judge previously.

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Speaker 2: I's around friends at Fox for Dallas, and I noticed

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Speaker 2: on the camera straight out to Tom Green joining us

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Speaker 2: former Chief Deputy Washoe County, that there were from what

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Speaker 2: I could tell, nine guards positioned around the courtroom. This

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Speaker 2: guy McGann was very close to the judge, very close

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Speaker 2: to the judge. Most of the guards that I could

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Speaker 2: see were armed, and I imagine they all were, some

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Speaker 2: in uniform, some in playing clothes.

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Speaker 1: So nobody knows what this guy is going to do.

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Speaker 10: Yeah, well, you know, a courthouse security is imperative, especially

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Speaker 10: that you know clearly it's a small courtroom. He's charged

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Speaker 10: with serious offenses. There's a lot of public interests. You

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Speaker 10: don't know what family members are are out there or

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Speaker 10: that that didn't want to, you know, potentially lash out

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Speaker 10: towards him, understandably. So, yeah, courtroom security is going to

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Speaker 10: be significant through this empire. Every court appearance he has

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Speaker 10: is going to be met with heavy presence of courts security,

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Speaker 10: both inside and outside.

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Speaker 2: I'm not really worry Tom about family members attacking him.

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Speaker 2: I'm worried about him attacking someone in the courtroom. Did

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Speaker 2: you see how close he was to the judge?

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Speaker 10: Absolutely, And as you know, if if we you know

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Speaker 10: if this ends up in a jury trial situation, you

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Speaker 10: know he has to he has to have the perception

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Speaker 10: of being out of custody, meaning no restraints at least

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Speaker 10: in this Uh, you know he's going to have restraints.

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Speaker 9: This is what we know.

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Speaker 1: He will have his formal arraignment within days.

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Speaker 5: What is that?

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Speaker 2: That means he will either have a preliminary hearing, which

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Speaker 2: I doubt. That is when the state calls enough witnesses

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Speaker 2: to show probable cause to have him bound over or

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Speaker 2: sent to the correct court, which would be superior court

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Speaker 2: where felonies are tried, or there will be.

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Speaker 1: A secret grand jury. What is a grand jury?

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Speaker 2: Those are voters from this jurisdiction that will likely hear

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Speaker 2: just one witness, typically the lead detective in the case,

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Speaker 2: who will summarize the evidence against the defendant. This is

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Speaker 2: not a guilt phase, guilt or innocence phase. This is

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Speaker 2: asking a grand jury simply is there enough evidence in

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Speaker 2: your mind to take this case to trial? They will

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Speaker 2: more likely than not render a true bill of indictment

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Speaker 2: and the case will then be assigned to a trial judge.

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Speaker 2: At that point, this guy, the alleged Devil's Den double killer,

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Speaker 2: will go to that courtroom. There he is where there's

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Speaker 2: a new haircut covering his face. He will go to

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Speaker 2: that courtroom and be arraigned where he will be formally

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Speaker 2: read his capital murder charges.

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Speaker 1: Alleged double killer took off.

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Speaker 6: On a small black sports car with taper for the

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Speaker 6: police and we suspect the suspect of injuries.

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Speaker 3: Car.

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Speaker 1: Oh, dear Lord in heaven. There he is, and it

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Speaker 1: looks just like the composite sketch.

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Speaker 2: In the last hours, we have obtained what is called

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Speaker 2: the intake surveillance of the alleged Devilstein killer.

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Speaker 1: Let's take a look at that now here we see him.

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Speaker 1: This is an aerial view.

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Speaker 2: I'm just curious. Are these the same shoes he wore

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Speaker 2: at the double murders? Please hold onto those shoes for

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Speaker 2: Pete's sake. You are taking a look at video surveillance

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Speaker 2: inside the jail where he is having as we call it, intake.

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Speaker 1: Tom Green explain what is intake?

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Speaker 5: Well, intake is going to.

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Speaker 10: Be the process that they're going to They're going to

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Speaker 10: take his mug shot, they're going to take some fingerprints.

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Speaker 10: But before all that occurs, they are going to make

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Speaker 10: sure he doesn't have any weapons on him, any or

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Speaker 10: any items of evidence obvious. Now, in cases such as this,

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Speaker 10: it would be common for the detectives, I know, we

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Speaker 10: would have to take every item of clothing, underwear, socks,

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Speaker 10: all of it and book that into evidence and have

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Speaker 10: that forensically examined. But yeah, that is the process of intake,

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Speaker 10: is to make sure he doesn't have any any weapons

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Speaker 10: on him, to completely search him and get those identifiers

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Speaker 10: from him. They're asking biological information and where do you live,

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Speaker 10: where your parents next to? In these kinds of.

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Speaker 2: Things, notice that every single person around him is armed

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Speaker 2: and they better be. Now we're tasked with finding out

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Speaker 2: what led to his arrest and what clues, if any,

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Speaker 2: are left behind. But first I'm going to go straight

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Speaker 2: back out to Nanette Sosa joining us. They're at Lupido's salon,

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Speaker 2: who graciously has allowed us to use all of their

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Speaker 2: surveillance of video.

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Speaker 1: Nanette, what have you learned there at the salon?

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Speaker 8: Brad learned? This salon is so busy, For example, thirteen

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Speaker 8: hairstylists on hand weekends. It's busy. It was just clearing

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Speaker 8: out that particular night where he where he entered. However,

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Speaker 8: this place is busy They are scared. All of them

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Speaker 8: are scared knowing that he was in this shop. Why

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Speaker 8: are they were here or not? They are scared.

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Speaker 2: You know another interesting thing and I want to go

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Speaker 2: out to our guest, doctor Janey Lacey, and guys. This

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Speaker 2: video is from our friends at Lupitea's Beauty Salon. Psychotherapist

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Speaker 2: and CEO of Life Counseling Solutions, Doctor Janie, thank you

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Speaker 2: for being with us. And many people, including myself, are

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Speaker 2: struck by his demeanor. He seems so calm. Of course,

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Speaker 2: it's one thing when you're uncontrollably tickling little girls on

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Speaker 2: the playground and you can't seem to stop yourself, or

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Speaker 2: you're having private lunches with the little girls without their

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Speaker 2: parents knowing about it, or you're attacking two unarmed parents

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Speaker 2: on a family hiking trail. That's an entirely different scenario

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Speaker 2: than being in court surrounded by nine armed guards. But

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Speaker 2: his demeanor, even in luped Salon, he's looking down. He

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Speaker 2: seems very quiet and self contained. How do you reconcile

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Speaker 2: the two the demon that appeared at Devil's Dan hiking

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Speaker 2: trail and this guy.

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Speaker 12: Well, the way that we reconcile that Nancy is that

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Speaker 12: they learn to compartmentalize and they learn to operate in

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Speaker 12: little boxes. So when we see him in this clip,

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Speaker 12: there's not eye contact and there's probably very little communication

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Speaker 12: so that he doesn't have to connect with the person

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Speaker 12: who he's actually discussed talking to. So they stay disassociated,

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Speaker 12: they stay not connected, and they don't less necessarily because

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Speaker 12: you're looking at eye contact and you're engaging in conversation,

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Speaker 12: you're connecting with the person. So this would tell me

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Speaker 12: that he's learned to compartmentalize, he does not connect, and

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Speaker 12: that he keeps himself very guarded so that people can't

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Speaker 12: necessarily read him, or so he thinks, how was this

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Speaker 12: guy apprehended?

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Speaker 13: Listen, the Brink children and another witness on the trail

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Speaker 13: helped create a sketch of the suspect. Other visitors to

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Speaker 13: the park were able to provide photos to investigators, helping

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Speaker 13: with the description of the vehicle, a black forty sedan.

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Speaker 13: Up to ten videos from homes and businesses along routes

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Speaker 13: in and out of the park, providing a good description

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Speaker 13: of the vehicle.

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Speaker 14: With that vehicle information that became critical in identifying our suspects.

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Speaker 14: So with the photos or the tips that came in

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Speaker 14: with the composite and the photo. As the colonel said,

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Speaker 14: we received over five hundred tips. As we began to

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Speaker 14: hone in on the vehicle, it became clear that it

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Speaker 14: was a Kia Stinger, and we used that information to

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Speaker 14: vet various owners and our suspect was identified.

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Speaker 2: This for our friends at KOTV Sidney Summer joining US

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Speaker 2: Crime Stories investigative Reporter Sidney, we are now hearing reports

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Speaker 2: to the little girls.

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Speaker 1: The two little daughters.

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Speaker 2: Seven and nine didn't run all the way down the trail,

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Speaker 2: as we were first told that they were afraid and

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Speaker 2: found all alone crying on the trail.

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Speaker 1: And someone brought them down. This is after mom.

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Speaker 2: Tells them to keep running and circles back to try

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Speaker 2: and defend her husband from the killer.

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Speaker 9: What do we know, Well, as you said, we know

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Speaker 9: that the girls were found on the trail and someone

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Speaker 9: took them into the visitor center. And at this point

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Speaker 9: it's still somewhat unclear if the person that grabbed the

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Speaker 9: girls and took them to the visitor center knew that

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Speaker 9: their parents were attacked or simply thought that these little

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Speaker 9: girls were separated from their parents and needed help finding them.

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Speaker 9: So in the visitor center is when these girls were

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Speaker 9: eventually put on the phone directly with the nine one

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Speaker 9: one operator in the full story started to come to

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Speaker 9: fruition and police officers and EMTs were staged at the scene.

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Speaker 2: The arrogance of this guy leaving his car parked right

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Speaker 2: in front of Lupita Salon. When we're doing a manhunt

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Speaker 2: trying to find this guy based on what they learned

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Speaker 2: from witnesses at the scene, a search warrant was executed.

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Speaker 1: Listen, we executed a.

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Speaker 4: Search warrant as residents.

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Speaker 10: There were articles found there that are consistent with being

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Speaker 10: involved in this particular crime.

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Speaker 13: McGann taught at Sand Springs until May of this year.

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Speaker 13: Former student Shalen Brown says the black backpack shown in

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Speaker 13: a picture was the same bag McGann had while he

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Speaker 13: taught at Sand Springs.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 2: On the return from that search warrant. What is a

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Speaker 2: return When a search warrant is executed, everything that is

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Speaker 2: taken from the home is written down on a return.

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Speaker 2: That's where our friend's a KOTV. What was on that

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Speaker 2: return waiting to find out, but we do know the

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Speaker 2: backpack was identified by children at a previous school. There's

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Speaker 2: not only the car, but I want to point out

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Speaker 2: what was found in the car itself. There's the backpack

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Speaker 2: that was identified by previous students and that's so joining

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Speaker 2: us there at Lupita Salon and barbershott and that what

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Speaker 2: was what do we know that was found in the car?

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Speaker 8: Alerties here did find blood traces of blood within the car.

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Speaker 8: That is do the probable cause that was released Other

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Speaker 8: than that, as far as he was concerned, he was

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Speaker 8: sitting in that barber chair. His hands had cut slices

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Speaker 8: on them as well, so they saw that and asked

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Speaker 8: them to it up from the chair and they faced

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Speaker 8: handcuffs on him. And he was in the middle of

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Speaker 8: the on the haircut when still had the barber tape

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Speaker 8: on when the handcuffed him. But it was definitely blood

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Speaker 8: that was found on the inside of the car, the Kiya,

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Speaker 8: which was parked here in the front of Mifita's Beauty salon.

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Speaker 13: Arkansas State Police interview a witness who saw someone with

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Speaker 13: blood on his face get into a black sedan and

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Speaker 13: drive onto State Highway one seventy. A second witness says

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Speaker 13: the car is a Kia stinger. This became extremely important

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Speaker 13: as investigators put out a sketch of the suspect and

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Speaker 13: type of vehicle and asked the public for help. Law

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Speaker 13: enforcement received multiple videos from homes and businesses showing the

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Speaker 13: black stinger.

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Speaker 1: This man is obviously twisted. He gave her a bad feeling.

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Speaker 1: He put off a bad vibe. Something is wrong with him.

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Speaker 2: Hikers on that trail that came in contact with McGann,

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Speaker 2: the alleged Devil's Double killer, said he gave a bad

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Speaker 2: vibe for many different reasons. And in our business, you

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Speaker 2: don't discount that. You don't discount a hunch.

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Speaker 1: And they were right. They were the only ones that

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Speaker 1: got a bad vibe off the sky.

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Speaker 2: Why did he bounce from school to school, to school

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Speaker 2: to school before he landed here at Devil's Den?

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Speaker 1: Well listen.

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Speaker 15: Parents of mcghann's students at schools in Oklahoma and Texas

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Speaker 15: say the twenty eight year old suspect was a sick

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Speaker 15: pervert and his behavior was unusual. There were girls McGahn

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Speaker 15: would tickle at Donald Elementary School in Flower Mountain, Texas.

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Speaker 15: McGahn would invite special girls to have lunch in his

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Speaker 15: classroom while other students ate in the cafeteria. Parents report

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Speaker 15: McGann's behavior to Lewisville isasde and Donald Elementary staff. But

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Speaker 15: everything got swept under the rug.

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Speaker 2: I really don't even know what to say about that quote,

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Speaker 2: swept under the rug. And this is according to parents

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Speaker 2: of students. And it wasn't just that school. He went

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Speaker 2: from that school to another to another. I wonder who

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Speaker 2: was the special girl that got to have lunch, a

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Speaker 2: private lunch in his classroom while the others ate in

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Speaker 2: the cafeteria.

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Speaker 1: And I'd like to know what was said at those

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Speaker 1: private lunches.

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Speaker 2: I know, straight out to Sydney Sumner joining us from

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Speaker 2: crime stories that he told one little girl, I wish

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Speaker 2: you could be my girlfriend. Oh honey, fur would fly

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Speaker 2: if somebody, a male teacher told that to one of

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Speaker 2: my children, I wish you could be my girlfriend or boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: What happened, Sidney Sumner? And why was he never reprimanded?

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Speaker 1: He just went from school to school to school.

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Speaker 2: Didn't nobody have the backbone to file an actual complaint

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Speaker 2: where they that afraid they'd get sued.

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Speaker 9: It's very unclear why this elementary school teacher, who apparently

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Speaker 9: never met expectations and had this history of inappropriate behavior

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Speaker 9: with female students, was allowed to just move on from

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Speaker 9: the his job and start somewhere else. Parents were apparently

440
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 9: very upset that McGann was able to resign and just

441
00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:11,680
Speaker 9: move to a new school district and didn't face any

442
00:25:11,800 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 9: kind of consequences for his actions. Now that school district

443
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,920
Speaker 9: said they didn't find any evidence that he really was

444
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 9: acting inappropriately with female students, but he did not meet

445
00:25:23,280 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 9: their expectation and was allowed to resign instead of being fired.

446
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:28,840
Speaker 1: Whoa, whoa, whoa.

447
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,639
Speaker 2: Woa, Sidney, I'm not going to kill the messenger, but

448
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: I find it highly inappropriate to uncontrollably like you can't

449
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 2: stop himself from tickling little girls. According to reports joining

450
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 2: me doctor Jane Lacy, what is nismophilia.

451
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 12: Well, misopelia is basically a tickling fetish nancy. So most

452
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 12: of the time people are using it, especially predators, because

453
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 12: there is some typo sexual pleasure that they'll get from

454
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 12: the actual tickling or being tickling, and there's usually a

455
00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 12: power dynamic that occurs and what we'll see nancy with predators.

456
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:07,280
Speaker 12: It becomes almost socially acceptable because tickling appears harmless to

457
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 12: most observers, and this sensitation process gradually normalizes.

458
00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: Okay, rewind, rewind, Okay, you got to start at the beginning.

459
00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:24,760
Speaker 2: Miss Mophelia is a sex fetish where you like to

460
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 2: tickle people, whether they want to be tickled or not,

461
00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 2: to where the victim is. They're not laughing, they're crying.

462
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 2: They don't like it, but you keep doing it, and

463
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,200
Speaker 2: you can't stop yourself. Could you it's a power dynamic.

464
00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:43,800
Speaker 2: Could you start that over again? It was you got

465
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:46,400
Speaker 2: me drinking from the fire hydrant, Doctor Jenney. Too much

466
00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,680
Speaker 2: information at once. Just slow it down for me. I'm

467
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 2: just a trial while you go ahead.

468
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 12: So when we consider missul Flemia, it's also considered a

469
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 12: tickling fetish. And what we'll see, Nancy, with the tickling

470
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:03,040
Speaker 12: fetish is that there's pleasure that's derived from tickling or

471
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 12: being tickled, and we'll see that there's usually like a

472
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 12: dominant submission dynamics, a power dynamic at play. So when

473
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 12: it comes to our suspect and the power dynamic of

474
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 12: him being a teacher and him tickling his students, we'll

475
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,760
Speaker 12: see it happen with predators because tickling usually appears harmless

476
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 12: to observers right, it becomes socially acceptable touch. And what

477
00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 12: we'll also see is this desensitation process that occurs nance

478
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 12: because what happens is they gradually normalize inappropriate physical contact

479
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 12: and they also can build trust. They're using playful interactions

480
00:27:41,520 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 12: to gain a child comfort. And what will also see

481
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,680
Speaker 12: is a lot of testing of boundaries happen. They're assessing

482
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 12: the child's vulnerability and also the adult supervision around. So

483
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 12: predators will also will look at this isolation indicators what

484
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,879
Speaker 12: we call it, where they'll determine if adults will actually intervene.

485
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 12: So when we see a lot of these warning signs

486
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 12: that have been reported, he had excessive physical contact with

487
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 12: the children, and he was targeting specific genders, the young girls,

488
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 12: and he created these special relationships.

489
00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:11,840
Speaker 1: With these students.

490
00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 12: And the boundary violations and professional settings that was reported

491
00:28:16,240 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 12: that some of the parents recognize as actually a grooming behavior.

492
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: You know what this is telling me to Tom Green,

493
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:28,960
Speaker 2: former Chief Deputy Washoe County Sheriffs, You're hearing what doctor

494
00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:33,359
Speaker 2: Janey Lacey is saying, and to me, this is giving

495
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: credence to the theory that McGann tried to grab one

496
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,520
Speaker 2: of the little girls or both ages seven and nine

497
00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: typically one to either molest them or something else like

498
00:28:50,480 --> 00:28:54,320
Speaker 2: the tickling, to feed his own sexual fetish, and the

499
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 2: parents stopped him.

500
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,080
Speaker 10: That's absolutely rational theory. And we can't forget me and

501
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,840
Speaker 10: see the nine year old the same age as the

502
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 10: children that's going to be in the class he was

503
00:29:05,400 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 10: about start teaching, and what a week and days out?

504
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 5: What if ses Tom?

505
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:11,840
Speaker 1: Tom?

506
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 2: That's important? Well, that's important. I want to follow up

507
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 2: with that, doctor Janey Lacey. That's important because purps, especially molesters,

508
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 2: typically have an age and a sex and a type.

509
00:29:27,960 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 2: Here's an example, not exactly on point, but look at

510
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy. If you look at his victims, so many

511
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:35,920
Speaker 2: of them look the same for a long period of

512
00:29:36,000 --> 00:29:39,480
Speaker 2: time until he got completely out of control and would

513
00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 2: just basically attack anybody that he could get close to.

514
00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 2: But at the beginning, he would pick out one woman

515
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: after the next. As I recall seeing their pictures side

516
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 2: by side, all thin white females, dark hair similar facially,

517
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: hair parted down the middle. As I'm just recalling them

518
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:59,719
Speaker 2: off the top of my head, that was his uh,

519
00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 2: preferred victim, whether consciously or subconsciously. And Tom Green pointed

520
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:07,719
Speaker 2: out the girls that age are the same girls as

521
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 2: these victims, particularly the nine year old.

522
00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 12: Well, he said it, Nancy, that he targeted his preference,

523
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 12: and he showed excessive favoritism towards this particular age range.

524
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 12: And also he had access to them because this was

525
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 12: the age range of what he was teaching. So it's

526
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 12: by no accident in my opinion, that he particularly targeted

527
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 12: this family that had these young girls because they were

528
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 12: part of his target that we have now have described

529
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 12: by a lot of different people on through.

530
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:36,560
Speaker 9: His history.

531
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: Crime stories with Nancy Grace joining us now is a

532
00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: very special guest. It's Danica Harold. She has a longtime

533
00:30:54,400 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 2: friend of the murdered mom and dad stabbed dead on

534
00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:03,840
Speaker 2: a public hiking trail, four families trying to protect their daughters.

535
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 1: Miss Harrol, thank you for being with us. Thank you.

536
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 1: When did you learn that your friends had passed away?

537
00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 1: Were killed?

538
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,920
Speaker 5: About midnight between Saturday and Sunday.

539
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,800
Speaker 1: How did you find out the news?

540
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 5: Someone sent me a news article and I actually thought

541
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:24,720
Speaker 5: it was a hoax, so I started researching it.

542
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,000
Speaker 1: Now you've known them for a long time.

543
00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:29,880
Speaker 5: Yees, since twenty sixteen.

544
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: What was your reaction when you discovered they hadn't just

545
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 2: passed on that they had actually been stabbed dead.

546
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 5: It was very it was very hard to learn that information.

547
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,160
Speaker 2: Could you tell us, miss Harold, about the two of them?

548
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: We keep hearing that they were murdered trying to protect

549
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: their daughters. That the mom helped her two little girls

550
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 2: get away from the killer, and then after they were

551
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 2: safe in her mind, she went back to help fight

552
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 2: the killer off her husband, and in so doing she

553
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:08,440
Speaker 2: herself was murdered trying to defend him.

554
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: Does that sound like her?

555
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 5: One hundred percent? They were all about their family.

556
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 2: Tell us what you can't about them because they have

557
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,120
Speaker 2: turned into props for the killer.

558
00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: We just hear they were stabbed. What can you tell

559
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 1: us about them? How did you meet? Describe them for us?

560
00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:33,400
Speaker 5: Actually met them? They joined my co ed volleyball league,

561
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 5: and she would bring her daughters with volleyball, and it

562
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 5: turns out we had, you know, two daughters that were

563
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,240
Speaker 5: the same age. So then that in turn led to

564
00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 5: us hanging out outside of volleyball, and she was just

565
00:32:47,920 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 5: as sweet as could be. I ran into some issues

566
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 5: with childcare, and she offered to take my daughter overnight

567
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 5: while I worked out of town, didn't even bat an eyelash,

568
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 5: and you know, she had to keep her Christmas one year,

569
00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 5: and she went as far as to make sure that

570
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 5: my daughter had the same matching pajamas as her kids.

571
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,720
Speaker 1: So you became very close we did.

572
00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 5: She lived, She's probably about half miles from my house,

573
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 5: and I'd go on walks and we'd stop at her

574
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 5: house and we'd just sit down and visit and she'd

575
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 5: make some coffee or tea, and our daughters would play outside.

576
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: To Mercia King, veteran trial lawyer and joining us Merscha again,

577
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 2: thank you for being with us. Any kind of a

578
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: sexual perversion or sex fetish does not rise to insanity.

579
00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: And noting how he was dressed, how he obscured his

580
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:43,959
Speaker 2: tag license number, how he screeched out of there at

581
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: a high rate of speed, all of that indicates pre

582
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 2: planning and guilty conscience upon flight. So even if he

583
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 2: has a sex fetish with tickling little girls, that doesn't

584
00:33:56,600 --> 00:33:57,960
Speaker 2: ride to insanity, does it.

585
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 16: He did have some knowledge about what he was doing

586
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 16: and that what he was doing was actually wrong, So

587
00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 16: when you get to an insanity defense, that's something that

588
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 16: his lawyers are going to have to really really flesh

589
00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 16: out to the jury for the jury to buy that

590
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 16: type of defense. But as you stated him fleeing, getting

591
00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 16: the haircut, all of those things go to show his

592
00:34:24,160 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 16: state of mind and that he knew whatever that he

593
00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 16: had done or whatever it happened was wrong, it was unlawful.

594
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:38,000
Speaker 2: This guy bounced between four districts in three states.

595
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:38,319
Speaker 1: Listen.

596
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,080
Speaker 15: Baron's complaints lead to him placed on administrative leave before

597
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:46,239
Speaker 15: his resignation letter. Parent Lindsay Polyak suggest if McGann had

598
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 15: been terminated instead of allowing him to resign, determination would

599
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 15: have been on his record and might have raised some

600
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,800
Speaker 15: red flags for other teaching jobs. But since he was

601
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,399
Speaker 15: allowed to resign, he was hired by at least two

602
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 15: other school districts and was getting ready to start the

603
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 15: new school. You're in Arkansas.

604
00:35:02,000 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 2: Joining us now is doctor Kendall Crown's chief medical examiner

605
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: Terrant County. That's Fort Worth and start of a brand

606
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 2: new podcast, Mayhem and the Morgue Esteemed a lecturer at

607
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:15,440
Speaker 2: the Burnett School of Medicine at TCU. Doctor Crowns, thank

608
00:35:15,480 --> 00:35:18,520
Speaker 2: you for being with us. We know that he the

609
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:23,320
Speaker 2: alleged killer. The suspect McGann was spotted by witnesses with

610
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: blood on his face. We know blood was found in

611
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 2: the car. We have been told the victims were stabbed.

612
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:34,680
Speaker 2: What can you tell us about cod cause of death?

613
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: We know the mom went back to try to protect Clint,

614
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,280
Speaker 2: the husband. What would you expect to find on the victims' bodies.

615
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 17: There'd probably be multiple stab wounds on varying locations. Usually

616
00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 17: with stab wounds, there isn't just one. It's usually several,

617
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 17: usually greater than ten. They'll probably be defense wounds, injuries

618
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,239
Speaker 17: on the hands or the forearms as the individual's to

619
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:03,919
Speaker 17: stop being stabbed and is grabbing at the knife, things

620
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 17: of that nature. Probably the majority of the wounds will

621
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 17: be in the neck, chest and back area on each victim.

622
00:36:10,719 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 1: When you say.

623
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:16,319
Speaker 2: Defensive wounds, doctor Kennel Crowns can defensive wounds not only

624
00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 2: be on the palms of the hands between the fingers

625
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 2: trying to ward off.

626
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: The pert from stabbing, but also.

627
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,960
Speaker 2: On the exterior of the arms when they hold their

628
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: arms up like this, even on their back and on

629
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 2: their legs. When victims curl up in a fetal position,

630
00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: maybe even here on their upper arms they try to

631
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: protect their face or their eternal organs. Where else would

632
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 2: you expect to find defensive wounds on the victims?

633
00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 17: That would be the majority of them is on the hands, forearms,

634
00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 17: even the backs of the arms, and occasionally, when they

635
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 17: are down, they'll be kicking or trying to block with

636
00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:56,560
Speaker 17: their legs and feet, so you'll see them on the legs.

637
00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,879
Speaker 17: They usually defensive wounds are on the extremities, most likely

638
00:37:01,120 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 17: hands and.

639
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:03,080
Speaker 1: Arms, Doctor Crowns.

640
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 2: How long would they have lived, depending on the nature

641
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 2: of the wounds themselves, how long would they have lived

642
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:13,839
Speaker 2: knowing that they were dying.

643
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 17: It depends on where the stab wounds are. If they're

644
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 17: in the chest and they hit the heart or the aora,

645
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 17: the major blood vessel from the heart, they'll bleed out

646
00:37:21,840 --> 00:37:25,280
Speaker 17: in a matter of minutes. If they're hitting the arms, extremities,

647
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 17: the abdomen, it's going to take a little longer. So

648
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,400
Speaker 17: we're looking at, you know, a couple of minutes to

649
00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:35,399
Speaker 17: several minutes, even ten to fifteen minutes, depending on what's

650
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:38,720
Speaker 17: stabbed and how long the assault occurred.

651
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: Doctor Kendall Crowns.

652
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 2: We know, based on what we've learned from law enforcement

653
00:37:43,640 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 2: that they believe they've got a DNA match. Now we

654
00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 2: understand they made the match from the hair taken from

655
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:59,160
Speaker 2: Lupita salon floor to something found at the scene. Is

656
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 2: it possible that the suspect got a wound himself from

657
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,720
Speaker 2: his own knife at the scene.

658
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,239
Speaker 17: Yes, it's very possible that when someone's stabbing an individual,

659
00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:15,600
Speaker 17: the knife can become slippery and if it doesn't have

660
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:20,279
Speaker 17: like a crossguard on it, the handle slip past the

661
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 17: knife as it becomes slippery and then get cut, and

662
00:38:23,280 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 17: then they'll reposition and then continue stabbing. But it is

663
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,280
Speaker 17: very possible that they got injuries from their own knife

664
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:31,760
Speaker 17: during the stabbing.

665
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,759
Speaker 2: We know that, according to at least one witness, the

666
00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: perp had blood on his face. We also know that

667
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: he had cuts to his hand. Regarding the cuts to

668
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:48,399
Speaker 2: his hand, how would those cuts in any way aid

669
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,799
Speaker 2: an identification and or a DNA match.

670
00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 17: Well, it cuts from his hand would of course bleed,

671
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 17: and the blood itself would get on the individual's bodies

672
00:38:59,320 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 17: that he killed. They would also get on the scene

673
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:05,360
Speaker 17: so that blood could then be used for a DNA

674
00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:07,960
Speaker 17: analysis matching it back to him.

675
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 2: I'm wondering if you could tell us miss Harrol about

676
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: the dynamic between her and her husband.

677
00:39:13,719 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: They seemed very happily married.

678
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,960
Speaker 5: They were they were supportive of each other. Kristen to

679
00:39:20,080 --> 00:39:23,320
Speaker 5: stay at home mom and Clinton worked. When she decided

680
00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:26,839
Speaker 5: to attempt to go through the nursing program and at

681
00:39:26,880 --> 00:39:31,360
Speaker 5: the two year programs was very difficult, like you're away

682
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:34,080
Speaker 5: for two years just because of how much time you

683
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 5: have to put into it. And Clinton told her to

684
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 5: jump in with both feet, like there's no reason we

685
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 5: can't get through this. And That's exactly what Kristen did.

686
00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:47,439
Speaker 5: With Clinton's support, she was able to become a nurse

687
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:50,759
Speaker 5: and and that just allowed them to do so much

688
00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 5: more with their kids. They started traveling more and it

689
00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,240
Speaker 5: was just it was they built this beautiful life together.

690
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 2: Of people are looking for a connection between the suspect,

691
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 2: as he is called the Devil's Den killer and them.

692
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 2: I don't think they knew each other. I think that

693
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: this was just a chance meeting on that trail. Do

694
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 2: you have any reason to believe they knew this guy?

695
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:20,800
Speaker 5: I don't. I agree with you. It was completely random.

696
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 5: I mean they were in Arkansas for what a month.

697
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 2: If you'll look at this Salon video we're showing you

698
00:40:26,200 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 2: right now from Lupida's notice he keeps keeping his hands

699
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:32,240
Speaker 2: when he's walking around in his pockets so the cuts

700
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,759
Speaker 2: are not visible, only taking them out to explain how

701
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 2: he wants his hair buzzed off. Leave it long in

702
00:40:38,080 --> 00:40:39,800
Speaker 2: the front to cover his face, but buzz up the

703
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 2: back so it can't be traced back or compared to

704
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: that rear shot of him in the forest, doctor Kendall Crowns.

705
00:40:47,680 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 2: Many people have argued that the hair on the floor

706
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:57,520
Speaker 2: of Lupita's salon cannot be matched DNA wise to DNA

707
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: the scene because.

708
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 1: There may not be nucleus in the hair. They're not

709
00:41:03,160 --> 00:41:03,879
Speaker 1: from the root.

710
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:09,399
Speaker 2: That is completely discounting mitochondrial DNA found in everyone's hair.

711
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:14,000
Speaker 2: Explain what is mitochondrial DNA, doctor Kendall Crowns, And how

712
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,600
Speaker 2: can mitochondrial DNA give us a DNA match to blood

713
00:41:17,800 --> 00:41:18,440
Speaker 2: on the scene.

714
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 17: So mitochondrial DNA is DNA that is found in all

715
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 17: cells miochondria or these little organelles within the cell itself,

716
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:32,160
Speaker 17: and they carry DNA matches that can be matched back

717
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 17: to you. It's actually passed down from your mom, So

718
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 17: it's DNA that you get from your mom. Now that

719
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 17: being said, it's president your hair it's president your cells,

720
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 17: so it can be used to make a match back

721
00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:50,400
Speaker 17: to the individual that they recover tissue from.

722
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 10: At the scene.

723
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: You know, in this day and age, I'm surprised the

724
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 2: world doesn't know about mitochondrial DNA. But when you think

725
00:41:57,640 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 2: of the nucleus at the end of the hair, it's

726
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:04,440
Speaker 2: the root. In the root, you have the mom and

727
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 2: the dad DNA giving you a DNA match. Right, You've

728
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 2: got both the mom and the dad's DNA in that nucleus.

729
00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 2: But with mitochondrial DNA, that's not necessary. Mitochondrial DNA matches

730
00:42:18,640 --> 00:42:22,360
Speaker 2: can give you matches statistically such as one in four million,

731
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: four trillion. Even you don't need the nigglius of the hair.

732
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 2: I want to be very clear about that.

733
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:28,080
Speaker 5: That's correct.

734
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 17: Your information is accurate.

735
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: Doctor Kendle Crowns.

736
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: What wounds do you expect to find on the defendant

737
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:36,759
Speaker 2: and what traces do you believe he left in his

738
00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:38,960
Speaker 2: own car and at his apartment.

739
00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 17: I would expect to see wounds on the hands from

740
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,759
Speaker 17: if his knife slipped and he cut his hands. Also,

741
00:42:44,880 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 17: there would be injuries if the individuals that were murdered

742
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 17: scratched at his hand, arms or tried to scratch his face,

743
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,160
Speaker 17: you would see abrasion type injuries on his hands or

744
00:42:55,200 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 17: face as well, but probably you would see insized wounds

745
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 17: or cuts on the palms of the hands, mainly doctor Crown's.

746
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:03,960
Speaker 2: I want to be clear on another issue as well,

747
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:08,400
Speaker 2: to avoid claims of contamination. When a victim's body is

748
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 2: taken from the scene, their hands are wrapped. They're covered,

749
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: usually in a paper bag, not plastic, and at the

750
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,120
Speaker 2: wrist it is contained with typically a rubber band.

751
00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:24,920
Speaker 1: So over their hands, a paper bag with a.

752
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: Rubber band, okay, to preserve any DNA as you pointed out,

753
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 2: under their nails or blood on their hands. Okay, why

754
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:40,839
Speaker 2: is that done? How do you retrieve the DNA out

755
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: from under the nails? Because I imagine this guy was

756
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: covered in scratch, marches marks, not just on his hands,

757
00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 2: but in other places even though he had on a

758
00:43:49,200 --> 00:43:52,800
Speaker 2: long sleeve like his face or his neck. How is

759
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: that preserved and why a paper bag versus a plastic bag.

760
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 17: Okay, so let's start with the paper bags. We use

761
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:03,760
Speaker 17: paper bag because plastic bags create moisture. Moisture can create

762
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 17: bacteria or mold production, which then can create false DNA problems.

763
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:14,839
Speaker 17: So paper is breathable, so you use that. You cover

764
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 17: the hands with paper because that protects the DNA from

765
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 17: the scene, so it gets to the autopsy unblemish by

766
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:27,280
Speaker 17: anything that could happen during transport. As far as obtaining

767
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 17: the DNA, will do a couple of things. Swabs with

768
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 17: steril saline on it or a sterile solution on it

769
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 17: that's then rubbed underneath the fingernails to get the bits

770
00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:43,279
Speaker 17: and pieces out. We'll use a wood a steril wood

771
00:44:43,360 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 17: scraper to scrape the fingernails as well. We'll do saline

772
00:44:47,200 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 17: swabs on the hands, the knuckles, the palms, and then

773
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:55,160
Speaker 17: we'll take the fingernails and clip them off and use

774
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,400
Speaker 17: those and turn them into the crime lab. If the

775
00:44:57,440 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 17: individuals decomposed enough, you can actually remove the entire fingernail

776
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 17: from the hand and turn that into the trime lab.

777
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 17: For DNA analysis, you got to look at for a

778
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 17: white mail suspect wearing black clothes.

779
00:45:09,440 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 1: That's going to be a white mail a white male

780
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: teacher wearing white.

781
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 3: Gloves and right in a dark colored pants, sunglasses, dark

782
00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 3: colored pants, and a dark color can hop.

783
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,400
Speaker 16: I'm confident that we have the right defendant in this

784
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 16: case and the public.

785
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 9: Need don't worry going forward.

786
00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 15: McGann is facing two capital murder charges and the prosecutor

787
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 15: says he will be seeking the death penalty.

788
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,280
Speaker 1: That from our friends at Action five News.

789
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 2: Will this go to trial, will they seek the death

790
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 2: penalty or will it fizz out like Coburger did. A

791
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 2: mother and a father dead on a hiking trail defending

792
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: their children. We wait as justice and folds, and we

793
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: will be in court for that arrangment. Nancy Gray signing off,

794
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:00,719
Speaker 2: goodbye friend

795
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 13: M