WEBVTT - Charge it To The Game: with Jemele Hill 0:00:04.040 --> 0:00:08.119 Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever, 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:12.320 pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.120 and I have conversations that put a new spin on 0:00:15.280 --> 0:00:20.640 pretty this is pretty smart. Today, I'm talking to one 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:27.080 of my favorite journalists, Jammel Hill. She's an Emmy winning 0:00:27.160 --> 0:00:31.200 sports journalist who spent twelve years with ESPN. And it's 0:00:31.240 --> 0:00:34.240 not so much what she covers, but for me, it's 0:00:34.280 --> 0:00:37.280 how she covers it. I know I'm going to read 0:00:37.600 --> 0:00:40.760 or watch something valuable In a world that is so 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:45.320 consumed with nonsense, Jammel Hill lives and works above the noise. 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.000 You know, sports media isn't known for being controversial or 0:00:49.320 --> 0:00:53.400 even inherently political, but in twenty seventeen, she made her 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:56.760 mark in shifting that landscape with one single tweet. You 0:00:56.800 --> 0:00:59.360 may remember her headline making moment when she tweeted about 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:03.440 then President Donald Trump, calling him a white supremacist. The 0:01:03.480 --> 0:01:06.160 White House called on ESPN to fire her, and Jammel 0:01:06.280 --> 0:01:08.920 received death threats and I can only imagine much more. 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:10.840 But those who had hoped. 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.319 To silence her quickly learned that Jammel is a woman 0:01:13.360 --> 0:01:16.520 who is not afraid to say what's on her mind. 0:01:17.040 --> 0:01:19.800 She's not afraid to have the conversation that everyone else 0:01:19.880 --> 0:01:23.959 is avoiding. She's a woman and a person of conviction. 0:01:25.400 --> 0:01:28.280 She left ESPN in twenty eighteen, and now she's doing 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.440 things on her own terms and making more money than 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:35.600 ever before. She's a writer for The Atlantic, podcast host 0:01:36.160 --> 0:01:39.520 creator of the podcast network Unbothered, which is a partnership 0:01:39.520 --> 0:01:43.000 with Spotify, highlighting black female voices both in front. 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:43.959 And behind the microphone. 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.680 And she's the author of a new memoir, Aupill, a 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:56.400 book she said she never wanted to write. You've said 0:01:56.400 --> 0:01:59.800 that Detroit is built into the fabric of who you are. 0:02:00.120 --> 0:02:00.600 I love that. 0:02:00.640 --> 0:02:03.200 I feel like geography actually plays a big role in 0:02:03.280 --> 0:02:04.600 who people become. 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:06.640 What about you is so Detroit? 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:10.480 Well, if people notice, I mean, I guess you could 0:02:10.520 --> 0:02:13.680 say this to a degree about everybody is that everybody 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.000 puts on for their city. But I feel like if 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:19.800 you're from Detroit, you put on even harder because Detroit 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:23.880 often does not get the attention that other major cities get. 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.560 You know, we don't get the attention of New York 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:31.720 or Chicago. Our sisters, yes, yes, the not to Chicago, 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.400 and so you know, we don't get that love of 0:02:34.400 --> 0:02:37.600 an La or Miami. So when we go hard, we 0:02:37.639 --> 0:02:41.360 go hard, and because of that, we have this chip 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:45.480 on our shoulders, you know, we feel the inferiority complex. 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.079 But it also works to our benefit because it makes 0:02:48.120 --> 0:02:51.080 you want to grind and you want to show people 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:53.600 that not only good things can come from Detroit, but 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:56.280 that we have a different sense and work ethic than 0:02:56.400 --> 0:02:57.200 other places. 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:58.959 You know, everybody in Detroit got a hustle. 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:01.200 That's just that's that's just how we grew up, that's 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.440 how we're raised. And I think the fact that we 0:03:03.600 --> 0:03:06.760 have such a you know, blue collar culture, being that 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:11.240 the auto industry is you know, positioned and headquartered in Detroit. 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:13.600 You know, that kind of bleeds into your personality. It's 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.800 like you grow up knowing that you have to prove yourself, 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:17.680 that you have to work hard, that you have a 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.799 grit and a determination, and so all those things are 0:03:20.960 --> 0:03:23.120 very much fused into my DNA. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.600 That grit is something I feel from all my Detroit friends. 0:03:27.160 --> 0:03:31.040 And there's a groundedness too, like, no matter where you 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.760 guys go, you're the same person you've always been. 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:35.920 Yeah, I heard that from a lot of people, and 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.240 that makes me feel good because everybody usually tells me like, oh, 0:03:40.280 --> 0:03:41.240 I know somebody from Detroit. 0:03:41.320 --> 0:03:42.560 Detroit people are the best. 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.960 I think it's a combination of not just how we 0:03:46.280 --> 0:03:49.080 are raised in the city, but also the Midwest, as 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:51.960 you know, like it's just different. You know, there's a 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:55.520 different sense of value, of different sense of priorities in 0:03:55.560 --> 0:03:59.000 the Midwest, and we are generally friendly, I think, And 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:02.320 so I think so yeah, I mean I found in 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.760 Chicago people to be wonderful, so relatives in Chicago, and 0:04:05.800 --> 0:04:09.640 so you know, I think just culturally the Midwest is nicer. 0:04:09.800 --> 0:04:11.520 No, this is everywhere else, but. 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:13.160 It is best. 0:04:13.240 --> 0:04:15.360 I will say, we're a little more friendly. 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.200 So you wrote, my parents had a lot of drug 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.320 issues when I was growing up. And the one thing 0:04:20.360 --> 0:04:22.320 I loved about writing is that if you don't like 0:04:22.360 --> 0:04:23.640 your reality, it allows you. 0:04:23.600 --> 0:04:24.640 To create a new one. 0:04:25.880 --> 0:04:28.600 I love that you are a writer first. It's one 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.520 of my favorite things. When I was researching for this interview. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:34.560 I can tell you truly love it. You don't just 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.479 put that on your bio because it's like a thing 0:04:37.520 --> 0:04:38.039 that you do. 0:04:38.560 --> 0:04:41.200 How did writing create this new reality for you? 0:04:41.720 --> 0:04:45.440 So writing is something I've loved from the beginning. As 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:48.040 a child, two things I love to do read and 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:50.000 to write, which sounds very basic, but I was a 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:53.719 voracious reader and I also love to write fiction and poetry. 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:56.680 I just really took to language in general. 0:04:56.760 --> 0:05:00.640 And when you read a book, it does transpor into 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.640 another place. Really good books, you know, you get lost 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:05.560 to them. It's a reason why they say that. And 0:05:05.680 --> 0:05:09.400 even though I know people see the ESPN resume and 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.880 some of the other things I've done, I didn't come 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:14.600 to ESPN as a television personality. I came there as 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.080 a writer and that was what I did and have 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.480 done the bulk of my career, despite the television success 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.239 I've been fortunate. 0:05:21.880 --> 0:05:22.839 Enough to experience. 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.200 So with writing, it was not only just about expressing myself, 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:29.920 but it was also about telling stories and imagination. And 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.800 when you grow up in some of the challenging circumstances 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:37.040 that I did with MO both my parents being recovering addicts, 0:05:37.279 --> 0:05:39.120 writing was very much a refuge for me. 0:05:39.200 --> 0:05:40.400 It was a safe haven for me. 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:45.120 I could create without boundaries or limits, and it was 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:46.880 also a sounding board. 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.520 You know. My my earliest writings, beyond. 0:05:49.240 --> 0:05:51.680 Just the fiction and the poetry, was keeping a journal 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:55.320 and so at journal I was able to vent and 0:05:55.400 --> 0:05:56.320 to rage. 0:05:56.240 --> 0:05:58.840 And to observe and to do all these things that. 0:05:58.760 --> 0:06:02.359 I think are a very integral part of writing, you know, 0:06:02.400 --> 0:06:05.680 writing especially, I would say journalism in particular, which is 0:06:05.680 --> 0:06:10.600 what I obviously gravitated toward. Journalism is about curiosity. It's 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:12.640 about wanting to know how the world works and why. 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:15.720 And I tell younger journalists it's like, you can't really 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:18.080 be a journalist if you aren't curious, if you don't 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:20.200 walk down the street and say, hey, I wonder why. 0:06:20.800 --> 0:06:22.920 If you don't do that, you're in the wrong profession. 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:27.080 And so I had the sense of wonder, curiosity and creativity, 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.200 and because of that, journalism was just such a natural 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:32.920 route for me to take. 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:36.320 I think it's interesting that you said creativity. What about 0:06:36.360 --> 0:06:37.880 creativity you think plays a role? 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:40.680 Well, I can't do math, and I hate science. 0:06:40.720 --> 0:06:43.640 I mean, I admire science, and you science and believe 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:46.640 in science, but oh God is so boring, right, you 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.159 know what I'm saying. And math it was like, ooh mean, 0:06:49.240 --> 0:06:53.240 numbers do not get along. We are sworn enemies. Once 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:56.800 you eliminate those two, like, what's left? Oh, that's right, righting? 0:06:57.600 --> 0:07:00.120 I mean, I'm big on critical thinking, big on reading, 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.839 big on discovery, and I think creativity is a part 0:07:03.839 --> 0:07:05.800 of that. It's always easy for me to tap into 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:10.080 my imagination and to use language to communicate sometimes the 0:07:10.120 --> 0:07:11.480 things that you can't do verbally. 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:13.840 Yeah, that's the beauty of it. And so I just 0:07:13.880 --> 0:07:14.320 said this. 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:18.160 Recently to an author I was interviewing. Is that reading 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.880 her fiction novels. Her name is adak A Lotte, and 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:23.080 you know, she's written some amazing fiction novels. 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:25.200 And I told her, I was like. 0:07:25.360 --> 0:07:30.200 You know, reading you made me realize writing is you 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:32.240 answering the questions you can't. 0:07:31.960 --> 0:07:34.600 Say out loud. That's what writing is. 0:07:34.760 --> 0:07:37.320 And so that's what I've always tried to do, is 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:41.320 like answer the questions I've always wondering that people wonder. 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.840 And sometimes those questions aren't comfortable, but you want to 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.320 answer and get to a truth when you write. And 0:07:47.600 --> 0:07:49.920 that's what writing represents for me. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.560 Do you because you're on TV all the time, do 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:57.400 you find it easier to write down your thoughts versus 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.920 because you seem like very easy to speak them. 0:08:01.240 --> 0:08:02.360 Yeah, it is. 0:08:02.560 --> 0:08:05.600 TV is just different. I mean, the medium is very 0:08:06.480 --> 0:08:09.360 instantly impactful. People when you write something might have to 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:12.120 sit with it for a minute, or it just shifts 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:13.080 them in a different way. 0:08:13.320 --> 0:08:14.880 With TV is much more thunderous. 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:18.760 And so what I had to learn as especially during 0:08:18.800 --> 0:08:21.200 the early stages of my television career, is how to 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:21.840 be succinct. 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:23.560 Is how to be succinct? 0:08:23.840 --> 0:08:27.360 Give them radio people figure that out. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.840 I got to write, like you, you don't have a 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.120 thousand words to explain. You got thirty seconds tops if 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:35.440 you're lucky, and so you have to figure out how 0:08:35.480 --> 0:08:37.960 to do that. So it just forced me to use 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.000 a different muscle, but it was all in sync with 0:08:41.120 --> 0:08:42.560 what you do and what. 0:08:42.480 --> 0:08:44.720 I should say. What I do as a journalist, it 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:46.000 was the same thing but shorter. 0:08:46.480 --> 0:08:48.400 So come up with a bar, that's it. 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:51.280 And I think it also helped because I never saw 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:55.760 myself as a TV person. I was always a writer masquerading. 0:08:55.080 --> 0:08:57.000 As a TV person. And when you have. 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:02.160 That mentality, I think you don't take TV as seriously, 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:03.640 and by that I mean yourself seriously. 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:06.839 I took TV itself seriously, the craft and understanding it. 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:08.560 I didn't take myself seriously. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:10.640 And there are people, as you know, in television that 0:09:10.679 --> 0:09:13.280 tend to take themselves very seriously, and so I always 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.720 had a natural comfort in front of the camera because 0:09:15.720 --> 0:09:17.559 I was only trying to be myself and that was it. 0:09:17.679 --> 0:09:18.680 That's such a good distinction. 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:22.400 So you've actually been earning a living writing since you 0:09:22.440 --> 0:09:24.439 were fifteen, which is wild because most people can't earn 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:25.360 a living writing. 0:09:25.440 --> 0:09:27.040 Ever, that is true. 0:09:27.320 --> 0:09:28.319 So how do you. 0:09:28.280 --> 0:09:32.000 Think that your life experiences as a kid gave you 0:09:32.040 --> 0:09:35.600 an edge? Because you see things in a very particular way, 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:37.960 which is why people gravitate towards you. 0:09:38.040 --> 0:09:39.720 That's a really fascinating question. 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:43.280 Is because your lived experience does shape you as a writer, 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:44.400 and that's very true. 0:09:44.880 --> 0:09:46.559 So I think. 0:09:46.640 --> 0:09:50.400 I was able because I grew up in poverty, grew 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.560 up again surrounded by addiction, you know, and other things 0:09:53.880 --> 0:09:58.280 in challenging neighborhoods. It allowed me to have a level 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:00.559 of empathy because I know what I I had been through. 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.400 I had been around people who had been through far 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.480 worse and saw how their trauma played out in their 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:11.320 lives consistently, and so it gives you a different sensibility. 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.120 You know, when you write without. 0:10:12.840 --> 0:10:16.080 Empathy, then you're never going to reach a different place 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:20.360 of understanding. And even if it was something that I 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:24.000 could never have imagined for myself. If you just really 0:10:24.040 --> 0:10:27.080 do something as simple as putting yourself in somebody else's shoes, 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.600 I think it's much easier to translate why something is 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.199 important and mean something. 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.720 I may not be able to identify with Lebron James 0:10:36.760 --> 0:10:38.600 physically because he's six's eight and. 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.640 Two hundred and seventy pounds and is, you know, one 0:10:41.679 --> 0:10:44.079 of the greatest basketball players who ever played. When you 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:46.240 read about how he grew up, you know, his mother, 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:48.440 having him at fourteen or fifteen years old, living in 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:51.920 eleven different houses, you can very much understand the pressure 0:10:52.000 --> 0:10:54.480 he's under or was under, you know, to be on 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.920 the cover of Sports Illustrated at sixteen. 0:10:57.120 --> 0:10:59.120 And tools had to cultivate. 0:10:58.720 --> 0:10:59.680 Like right on the fly. 0:11:00.080 --> 0:11:00.280 Yeah. 0:11:00.320 --> 0:11:02.120 I mean he was given a hundred million dollars when 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.439 he was eighteen years old. So you think about that, 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:09.240 and you think about what he's become a successful husband 0:11:09.280 --> 0:11:13.679 and father and businessman. It's one of the most amazing 0:11:13.720 --> 0:11:16.640 sports stories, amazing American stories ever told. 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:19.960 So I think the route to understand. 0:11:19.520 --> 0:11:22.679 Again is not necessarily and how talented he is, but 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.640 understanding what drives him, and I can understand what drives 0:11:25.720 --> 0:11:28.080 him because it drove me. And so that's what I 0:11:28.120 --> 0:11:31.040 mean about, like, if you approach writing and understanding the 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.240 people you're talking about from a position of empathy and 0:11:34.320 --> 0:11:38.080 understanding those other circumstances, it allows you to have more 0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:41.000 nuanced conversations about them. I mean that's not to say 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:44.120 that people who oooh dude, Lebron doesn't fall into this category, 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.240 but people who do, like really awful things. I mean, 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.160 I don't I'm not saying that you don't go into 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.520 it having a level of accountability either, But I do 0:11:51.559 --> 0:11:54.760 think the empathy is a core component when you write. 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.959 As you said that, I kept thinking, that is exactly 0:11:58.040 --> 0:12:01.959 what differentiates your writing. I heard you talk about Michael 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:05.280 Vick once and I was like, she's the only person 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:08.280 that's speaking about this with nuance. There's so much more 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:11.080 to that story than just he did something bad. 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.240 Yeah, I mean an empathy. 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:16.040 It is the empathy. And I also, you know, you 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.720 just follow the course of things. It's just like, Okay, 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:21.959 he grew up in a subculture where fighting dogs was 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:22.439 not wrong. 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:25.920 He also is you know at that point. 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.640 I mean, I think financially the lynchpin of his family, 0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.679 he is coming to more money than he ever thought possible, 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:36.560 and between the pressures of family, the pressures of being 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.240 a highly paid professional athlete. 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:40.679 I'm not saying that these things drove him to dogfight. 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:43.720 What I am saying is that, you know, a lot 0:12:43.800 --> 0:12:45.920 of people are trying to understand how somebody in that 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:48.160 position could put it on the line for that, and 0:12:48.200 --> 0:12:50.360 that's the question you're trying to figure it out, and 0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.080 to figure out, you know, frankly, is that are we 0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.760 going to Some people will never forgive Michael Vick and 0:12:57.000 --> 0:12:59.719 are harder on him than they are on people who have, 0:13:00.080 --> 0:13:02.960 you know, no disrespected dolls, but harm. So, you know, 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.719 I try to bring that level of understanding to it. 0:13:07.120 --> 0:13:08.880 But I have to say the one thing I do 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.200 not miss about television because it was only always so 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:15.600 important to me, I don't honestly miss having to come 0:13:15.679 --> 0:13:20.280 up with bite sized viewpoints on people where nuance is required. 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:24.160 And what I love about writing is that it begs 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:25.040 you for the nuance. 0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:26.360 TV doesn't like. 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.840 Unless you are able to have an hour long show 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:31.839 where you can go on and go any place you want, 0:13:31.840 --> 0:13:34.120 which nobody does because you're trying to keep everybody's attention. 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.160 TV just doesn't give you that, And I have to 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:39.840 say I do not miss on a daily basis having 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:42.800 to put out soundbites about people I don't know. 0:13:43.480 --> 0:13:45.520 The podcast space has given me that. Do you feel 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:45.800 that way? 0:13:45.880 --> 0:13:46.520 I feel that way. 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.199 I love podcasting And the reason why when I left 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.960 ESPN one of the first deals I signed was to 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.199 do a podcast is because I missed the nuance. I 0:13:57.240 --> 0:14:00.520 miss being able to do this, miss having those convers 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:04.560 and just the nature of podcasting lends itself to intimacy, 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.720 which you don't get in TV. So it was the 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:09.920 perfect platform for me. And I do a lot of things, 0:14:09.960 --> 0:14:13.240 but you know, the podcast really is a passion project. 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:14.920 It's a sole thing it is. 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:16.520 Yeah, that's a perfect way to put it. 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:18.840 I did not know you love baseball so much. 0:14:19.480 --> 0:14:24.360 I did. Look, let me let me explain before thee 0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:25.360 has come from me. 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.280 Baseball was my first love growing up, and people have 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:31.880 to understand one, I'm a thousand years old and because 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.000 of that, there were certain things that are at our 0:14:35.000 --> 0:14:36.960 fingertips now that were not in existence. 0:14:37.760 --> 0:14:39.920 And we're talking about. 0:14:39.320 --> 0:14:43.440 You know, the early nineteen eighties and the Detroit Tigers 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:47.560 were really good and they won World Series in nineteen 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:50.520 eighty four, and then they were competitive for a while. 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:55.120 And so growing up in the backdrop of your city's 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:58.240 team being great is going to suck you in. And 0:14:58.280 --> 0:15:00.480 that's exactly what happened. And I used to listen to 0:15:00.520 --> 0:15:02.760 their games on the radio, watch them on TV. When 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.200 you followed your teams, you had to follow them either 0:15:05.720 --> 0:15:09.720 through watching the local newscast, through some snippets on national news, 0:15:10.200 --> 0:15:12.000 or you had to read the newspaper, which is something 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:13.200 that I did religiously. 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.480 As I read the newspaper to follow my sports. 0:15:15.560 --> 0:15:16.720 That's amazing. No one does. 0:15:16.840 --> 0:15:18.440 No one don't know that. You don't even know what 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:19.640 a paper feels like anymore. 0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.360 But I grew up reading the newspaper, which was honestly 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.680 divine intervention because that sucked me into journalism is reading 0:15:27.680 --> 0:15:30.640 about sports and just reading about it. I was like, oh, 0:15:30.720 --> 0:15:32.880 so people write about sports for a living. 0:15:33.040 --> 0:15:33.880 That's interesting. 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:37.480 And you know, fast forward to when I was a 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.080 sophomore junior in high school is when I joined the 0:15:40.120 --> 0:15:43.160 newspaper staff. From there, I started working for the local 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:44.600 newspaper answering phones. 0:15:45.000 --> 0:15:49.000 So I've been very lucky to have always been paid 0:15:49.040 --> 0:15:49.520 as a writer. 0:15:49.960 --> 0:15:52.080 So since I was like fifteen, sixteen years old, I've 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:55.560 been a paid writer, So that in itself is like 0:15:55.600 --> 0:15:58.480 a tremendous achievement for somebody who had never heard of 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.120 sports writing growing up or didn't know any sports writers. 0:16:02.160 --> 0:16:03.560 It was like, Yeah, I'm gonna be a sports writer. 0:16:04.160 --> 0:16:04.800 That was the goal. 0:16:05.360 --> 0:16:08.640 You write for one of my favorite outlets now, The Atlantic, 0:16:09.480 --> 0:16:13.480 and your bio sports at its conversion with gender, race, 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.960 and politics. I don't mean to keep bringing this back 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.360 to geography, but I do think that people that grow 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:23.840 up in cities where race is a part of their 0:16:23.880 --> 0:16:27.760 city more so a different perspective for me. Chicago's the 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:32.720 second most segregated city in America. Race is at the forefront, 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.200 so I've always thought about it. Detroit's very similar. Race 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:38.800 has always been a part of that city. 0:16:39.360 --> 0:16:42.480 Yeah, I mean, even though I grew up in a 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:45.640 city that was I think right now Detroit is the 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:48.200 blackest city in the country because I think it's I mean, 0:16:48.280 --> 0:16:51.120 it's basically like eighty five percent black. DC was the 0:16:51.680 --> 0:16:53.760 chocolate city that people were familiar with that. I know 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.120 people look at Atlanta, but we have more black folks 0:16:56.120 --> 0:16:59.400 in Detroit than they, you know, haveing Atlanta. I'm pretty 0:16:59.400 --> 0:17:01.920 positive that's the case. And even DC, because you know, 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:06.040 gentrification and everything, they've lost a little of the chocolatedness, 0:17:06.560 --> 0:17:09.160 if you will. But I say all that to say, 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.280 even though you're growing up largely around people that look 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:17.199 like you, the race informs the policies that lead to 0:17:17.720 --> 0:17:20.160 what you see play out every day. So you talked 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.199 about the segregation of Chicago, which is very real and 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:26.440 continues to be that way. In Detroit, it's the same way. 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.760 The reason why Eminem named his movie eight Mile is 0:17:29.800 --> 0:17:32.240 because eight miles the dividing line between the city and 0:17:32.280 --> 0:17:36.080 the suburbs. Detroit, like many urban centers, was the casualty 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.280 of white flight. I mean, there were race riots in Detroit, 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:42.960 and when it got to a point with the auto industry, 0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:44.879 there were race riots in the plants. When the auto 0:17:44.920 --> 0:17:47.520 industry where you had you know, black and white workers 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:49.600 working alongside each other, there was a lot of beef, 0:17:49.720 --> 0:17:52.879 even though really they should have been on the side 0:17:52.880 --> 0:17:56.560 of being against ownership and the corporate nature of what 0:17:56.600 --> 0:17:59.880 they were doing. A lot of racial tension that developed, 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.320 and the race riots that happened in nineteen sixty seven. 0:18:04.600 --> 0:18:06.960 That wasn't even the worst race riots that have ever 0:18:07.000 --> 0:18:10.440 happened in Detroit's history, which people don't know. But when 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:14.720 the race riots happened, after that, white people fled the 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:16.480 city of Detroit and droves. 0:18:16.640 --> 0:18:17.680 And see when that happens. 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.200 The reason why people point out the impact of white 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:25.800 flight is that because of the perceptions of race, perceptions 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:28.800 of black people, it kills your tax base. So all 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:30.840 of a sudden, if you go from a city that 0:18:30.960 --> 0:18:32.600 is a million too, suddenly. 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:34.880 You have like two three hundred thousand white people just leave. 0:18:35.440 --> 0:18:37.400 Then it's taking the tax space with them, which means 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:41.000 it changes the dynamic of city services, of policies, schools, 0:18:41.040 --> 0:18:44.919 all of that. And you know, still very much at 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:47.119 that time, and it still happens today in America. You 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:51.120 have redlining, you have all these things that have happened 0:18:51.640 --> 0:18:56.480 to depress and oppress the people that are left behind. 0:18:57.080 --> 0:19:00.560 And as a result, Detroit fell on some very challenging 0:19:00.640 --> 0:19:02.760 economic times. Detroit used to be one of the richest 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.360 cities in the world and now it's one of the poorest. 0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:08.920 The motor city, yeah, because all you know, the Great 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:11.399 migration happened because everybody was trying to get to jobs 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.240 in the plant right, and so you have this very 0:19:14.280 --> 0:19:18.520 stable manufacturing base, and suddenly that starts to erode, and 0:19:18.520 --> 0:19:20.760 then you have white people who cross eight mile. They're 0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:24.120 all living in the suburbs, leaving the city behind to die. 0:19:24.320 --> 0:19:25.000