1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Quality times. But Joseph Scott More, I'm not. 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:10,880 Speaker 2: By any means the brightest guy in the world. I 3 00:00:10,920 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 2: think that a lot of it, Any knowledge that I 4 00:00:13,840 --> 00:00:17,760 Speaker 2: have that I've been blessed with, comes from repetition and 5 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: being around it. What I do you know for so long, 6 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,239 Speaker 2: you know, you just kind of absorb it after a while. 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:30,160 Speaker 2: It doesn't mean that you're that you're intuitively makes sense there, 8 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 2: intuitively intelligent. It just means that you can absorb information. 9 00:00:36,159 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: And my my area is very specific, okay, in death investigation, 10 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:46,320 Speaker 2: And granted there are all kinds of subcategories within death investigation, 11 00:00:47,440 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 2: but for me, it always has been the best way 12 00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: to learn things is to compartmentalize them, and I picked 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: them up. I was a big advocate when I was 14 00:00:57,200 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 2: an undergraduate in college of using index cards to run 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,959 Speaker 2: through before I would do testing and that sort of thing. 16 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,120 Speaker 2: I love that because it really made me learn the information. 17 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 2: But you know, that kind of breaking down of things 18 00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:22,360 Speaker 2: lending itself to absorption of knowledge. It's certainly a way 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,920 Speaker 2: that we work in the Morgue. We don't just essentially 20 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:31,480 Speaker 2: do all of our dissections at one time. We take 21 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:39,480 Speaker 2: it peace by peace and learning from each individual element 22 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,320 Speaker 2: of the human body what we can to try to 23 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: arrive at a cause and ultimately a manner of death. 24 00:01:48,680 --> 00:01:51,040 Speaker 2: But you know, there are people out there, and we've 25 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: talked about them on the show, who do their own 26 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 2: compartmentalizing of human remains. They break them down into various 27 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 2: elements and also for various reasons, which we're going to 28 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:12,520 Speaker 2: discuss today. Today we're going to talk about the five 29 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 2: the five types of dismemberment that we come across in 30 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:24,680 Speaker 2: the field in forensic science, in medical legal debt investigation. 31 00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 2: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Body Bats and Dave, 32 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:37,560 Speaker 2: you know you can verify this. I had already mentioned 33 00:02:37,600 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 2: to you that I wanted to do this going into 34 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:43,079 Speaker 2: the end of the year, that because we've talked so 35 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: much about dismemberment, I kind of wanted to cap this 36 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 2: thing off relative to what we're trying to do when 37 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 2: we bring these cases, and just to go ahead and 38 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: get this out of the way. I do, in fact 39 00:02:57,280 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 2: believe that there is an uptick in the number of 40 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 2: dismemberments that are covered in the news. I can't scientifically 41 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: verify that. Hopefully I can, maybe I can get my 42 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 2: graduate assistant on that and start collecting some data. But 43 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 2: people dismember for all different reasons. But the reason I'm 44 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 2: saying to you I need you to validate upfront that 45 00:03:18,600 --> 00:03:21,639 Speaker 2: I had already said this to you maybe a week 46 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,320 Speaker 2: or so back, that I wanted to do this episode 47 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 2: Body Bags, because just yesterday, without any prior knowledge, there 48 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: has been an article that has dropped that where it 49 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:38,119 Speaker 2: is that, I think it was in the Post, I'm 50 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: not sure. I think it was in the Post and 51 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 2: maybe the Daily Daily Mail, Elie Times, where they are 52 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 2: now saying that there is a connection between the Black 53 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 2: Dahlia and the Zodiac Killer. Now I'm not here to, 54 00:03:55,920 --> 00:04:00,480 Speaker 2: you know, to talk about those cases necessarily, particularly the 55 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 2: Zodiac because I don't know that that'll ever be solved, 56 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: and certainly at this distance in time, I don't know 57 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: that the Black Dahlia case, but it's one of the 58 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 2: first cases I think that many people ever heard about 59 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:18,039 Speaker 2: where there was and really made a big splash where 60 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 2: there was a dismemberment. Well, and it was a very 61 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:22,760 Speaker 2: particular kind of dismemberment. 62 00:04:22,320 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 3: In the case of Elizabeth Short, who was the Black Dahlia. 63 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 3: If you remember Joe, this case, we have on this program, 64 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 3: talked about how b roll footage for television and pictures 65 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 3: actually means a lot about getting coverage for a case. 66 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 3: There are always there are always cases. I don't want 67 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 3: to knock any missing person's case or death or anything 68 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:51,280 Speaker 3: like that, but I'll give you an example, John b 69 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 3: and a Ramsey. She had Granted, she's a child who 70 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,919 Speaker 3: is found dead in her own home. They thought she 71 00:04:58,040 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 3: was kidding. I mean that whole story. But the reason 72 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 3: it caught the attention of the world was all the 73 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 3: b roll video that was shown every time they mentioned 74 00:05:06,400 --> 00:05:08,599 Speaker 3: the case. Here we go, we got the girl on stage. 75 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 3: We've got her dancing, We've got her you know, trust up, 76 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 3: wearing makeup and all that at five and six years old. 77 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: And as newspeople cover stories, they look for that. They 78 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 3: look for things that will make their story stand out, 79 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: whether it's the producer trying to make your leg up 80 00:05:23,640 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 3: on the next gig or whatever, and so that actually 81 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: matters in the coverage that happens, especially when a story 82 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 3: is static, meaning there's no new information coming out. In 83 00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 3: the case of Elizabeth Short, the very first time I 84 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: ever saw the story, Joe, it was photos, pictures taking 85 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 3: at the scene of this dismembered woman and how her 86 00:05:44,839 --> 00:05:49,280 Speaker 3: body was positioned in pieces, and the description of how 87 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 3: her body was found and people were walking you know, 88 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 3: you are talking about in the post World War era 89 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 3: of it was after World War two. 90 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 2: Right, forty yeah, it was forty second. 91 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:06,279 Speaker 3: But Elizabeth short her she was called the Black Dahlia 92 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 3: because she was seen by a woman walking with her 93 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 3: child and a stroller and by others before the police 94 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 3: were ever called. And you had a newsperson with his 95 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,559 Speaker 3: camera taking photos as police arrived on the scene. 96 00:06:24,920 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: Yep. 97 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:29,679 Speaker 3: So before any official photos were taken of this victim, 98 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 3: they were already produced. They were already going through the film, 99 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 3: you know, and getting it on the paper the next day. 100 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,200 Speaker 3: So that story gained a lot of momentum because of 101 00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 3: the physical description and the pictures that fit that. Because 102 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:49,039 Speaker 3: no matter what you say, a body that is dismembered 103 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: and is sitting in grass for all to see is 104 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:55,880 Speaker 3: a shocking thing, no matter who you are or where 105 00:06:55,920 --> 00:06:58,839 Speaker 3: you are. It's not something we ever expect to see 106 00:06:58,839 --> 00:06:59,480 Speaker 3: in our life. 107 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,679 Speaker 2: No, it's not. And can you imagine this, this mother 108 00:07:02,880 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 2: pushing you know, her her baby down the street, and 109 00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 2: this is kind of a and this is a weird 110 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:12,200 Speaker 2: thing to say now, an undeveloped area of Los Angeles. 111 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 2: It was like and when you take a look, you 112 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: can actually see where I'm not going to say that 113 00:07:19,120 --> 00:07:22,160 Speaker 2: things had been you know, that things had been stubbed, 114 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 2: you know, ready to build a house over them, relative 115 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: to plumbing and all that, but it looked like that. 116 00:07:27,120 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: You could tell where sidewalks had been poured and and 117 00:07:30,240 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 2: so forth and so on. And her body is laying 118 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 2: that out there, and she, Elizabeth Short, had been bisected 119 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: and bisected here obviously by too. And again this goes 120 00:07:43,680 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 2: to the the process of dismemberment. She's cut across it 121 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 2: if you just think about it in the well, if 122 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,320 Speaker 2: she's standing up, she's cut in the horizontal plane or 123 00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: you know, around her equator of her body. Okay, and so, 124 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 2: and when you see her, her arms are actually bent 125 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 2: at the elbow and over her head, palms up. Her 126 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: legs are spread, which I've actually seen that before in 127 00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 2: a series of serial killings where the legs were always 128 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,240 Speaker 2: spread apart. It's like it's like a humiliation kind of 129 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 2: thing that's going on, and you know, you're literally laid 130 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:30,280 Speaker 2: bare before the world and in the margins the margins 131 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 2: of the incisions were very very neat what do you 132 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 2: mean margins? The margins like where the dissection actually took place. 133 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:44,000 Speaker 2: So when she's cut in this kind of equatorial position 134 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 2: around her midline, there's not like, you know, how we'll 135 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:50,400 Speaker 2: get these cases and we'll talk about them. It's like, 136 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 2: you know, if somebody had done this like in a fever, 137 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,119 Speaker 2: they were using all manner of tools. This was very specific, 138 00:08:56,360 --> 00:09:00,520 Speaker 2: all right, And this this goes to someone that that 139 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 2: you know, I hate to use the term training, but 140 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 2: it was someone that had a certain level of comfort 141 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: and probably privacy, and most important time, very little blood 142 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 2: left in the body, so that gives you an indication 143 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 2: the body had probably been drained. And here's something else. 144 00:09:17,520 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: Did you know that her bowels were actually neatly tucked 145 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 2: beneath her body as she was laid out? I don't know, right, yeah, 146 00:09:29,520 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: but when you look at her body down the long axis, 147 00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 2: so if we're standing at the top of her head, 148 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: looking down the long axis from the top of her 149 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:39,840 Speaker 2: head to her feet, did you know that the body 150 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 2: is actually offset, which is really weird, like the lower. 151 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: To I'm sorry, it's on purpose. 152 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 2: I don't know. You went to the person that did this, 153 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: went to so much trouble to do a need incision 154 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:58,200 Speaker 2: or a bisection, actually taking the body completely apart, but 155 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:02,240 Speaker 2: yet you don't take the time to align the body. 156 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:05,240 Speaker 2: The body is kind of offset. Now you know, I'm 157 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:07,600 Speaker 2: not caring with a c stark out here. I can't 158 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:11,800 Speaker 2: sit here and as a forensic psychologist, which I ain't 159 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,160 Speaker 2: and don't want to be, I can't sit here and 160 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 2: tell you what kind of profile this person had. However, 161 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 2: I can tell you that the body is obviously askew 162 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 2: the other thing, and I find this fascinating. We'll talk 163 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:26,920 Speaker 2: about movies in just a second, but when you think 164 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: about her body, I think about the Batman with Heath 165 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: Ledger in it, because she actually had a smile cut 166 00:10:37,559 --> 00:10:42,840 Speaker 2: into her face. Her face was actually was just so 167 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: disfigured and it goes from the corner of her mouth 168 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 2: up just turning up, and I swear, Dave, it looks 169 00:10:48,880 --> 00:10:52,000 Speaker 2: just like the smile that Heath Ledger had in the 170 00:10:52,040 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 2: Batman movie, which to me, in that canon of movies 171 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: is probably the best. Heath Ledger was incredible as a joker, 172 00:10:58,400 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 2: and I think very disturbing, but you know, just that 173 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 2: was carved into her face, and I wonder if if 174 00:11:06,320 --> 00:11:09,080 Speaker 2: they got that idea and reflect that. You know, you 175 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:10,880 Speaker 2: and I talk about movies every now and then on 176 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,200 Speaker 2: the show. I got to tell you there was a 177 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 2: movie that came out in two thousand and six which 178 00:11:17,520 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 2: was directed by De Palma, and it was a complete 179 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 2: dumpster fire. I cannot tell you how disappointed I was 180 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 2: in that movie. I was really really hoping that it 181 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 2: was going to be one of these things that really 182 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 2: knocked our socks off, and it was a dumpster fire 183 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 2: with really bad smell to it. I don't know how else. 184 00:11:37,360 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: But interestingly enough, going back to the Zodiac connection, David Fincher, 185 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 2: who did I think he did seven? He was slated 186 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:51,160 Speaker 2: to do that movie. He didn't do it. He's the 187 00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:55,199 Speaker 2: one that winds up doing the Zodiac movie, which was fantastic, 188 00:11:55,880 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 2: that had Jake Gillenhall in it, and that movie was 189 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 2: was actually even though you didn't see like a slash 190 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:06,680 Speaker 2: or anything, it was quite terrifying. 191 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:09,959 Speaker 3: All right, now, Joe, what is happening now? And we 192 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: did talk about this. You and I talked about the 193 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:15,320 Speaker 3: Black Dahlia story. Like last week and for there to 194 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 3: be some movement on this story now this week and 195 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 3: today it's all over. I'm surprised at a connection between 196 00:12:26,800 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 3: the Zodiac, which is predominantly San Francisco, northern California exactly. 197 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,200 Speaker 3: You have, you know, the Black Dahlia, which is one 198 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 3: murder case in southern California in the you know, in 199 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:42,439 Speaker 3: a neighborhood in the forties, residential neighborhood in the south 200 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 3: part of Los Angeles. I guess I'm trying to figure 201 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:51,960 Speaker 3: out based on a number of things that have been 202 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 3: said about the Black Dahlia case. There's a man who 203 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 3: has written a book about his father, believing that his father, 204 00:12:57,800 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 3: who was a surgeon, actually was the murderer. And he 205 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 3: has this whole thing cooked up where his dad got 206 00:13:03,880 --> 00:13:07,679 Speaker 3: her home and I say, just drain it over blood 207 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 3: in the bathtub kind of thing. 208 00:13:10,360 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, And I actually went off. There's a tape 209 00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:15,440 Speaker 2: of me on YouTube, I think, and I was on 210 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 2: with Vinnie Politan on h l N years ago, and 211 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 2: I don't know if it's the same guy, but I 212 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:23,440 Speaker 2: go off. 213 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:23,760 Speaker 1: I was. 214 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 2: I was actually I did a phoner. I was nowhere 215 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: and they said we want you to comment on this 216 00:13:28,679 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 2: book that's just come out. I said, oh, I'll be glad. 217 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 2: It was says, if you've got this much information. At 218 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:36,360 Speaker 2: that time, there were still a lot of family members 219 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 2: that were alive. I guess there still are of Zodiac victims. 220 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:43,200 Speaker 2: If you've got this information, get an attorney, go to 221 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:47,080 Speaker 2: San Francisco, to the PD and these other associated and 222 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,320 Speaker 2: get in their face and say, I've got this information. 223 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: What can you do with it? Was let's get some 224 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 2: resolutions for this. It just seems so mercenary for me. 225 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,839 Speaker 2: Yeah about it, Yeah, because my daddy did it. And 226 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 2: then of course I get these responses like, well he 227 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,840 Speaker 2: made an attempt to go to the chief of Police 228 00:14:04,880 --> 00:14:07,800 Speaker 2: of San Francisco. Yeah, well nothing ever came of that, 229 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:11,240 Speaker 2: you know, because there was supposed to be DNA connectivity. 230 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: But with this case, what they're saying now and again, 231 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 2: this is another amateur sleuth that has come on to 232 00:14:17,240 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 2: this thing. They're opining that this case in particular is 233 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:27,440 Speaker 2: connected to the Zodiac. And the one suspect is a 234 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:32,800 Speaker 2: guy that was a combat medic in World War two, okay, 235 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 2: and that he had some disturbances and this sort of thing, 236 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 2: and he had gotten into fights and was really unbalanced, 237 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: and so he actually winds up changing his name because 238 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 2: they were initially looking at him as a witness into 239 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: Black Dahlia. And eventually he changes his name and bounces 240 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 2: out of town right and abandons like his family and 241 00:14:52,720 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 2: everything else. Well, he makes his way back to the 242 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,200 Speaker 2: Bay Area. I think in the early sixties. I might 243 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 2: be way off here, but that's kind of how the 244 00:15:02,960 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: story is going, makes contact I think with his daughter 245 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 2: maybe again, I don't really know, and he essentially has 246 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:20,400 Speaker 2: gone off his nut apparently and involved himself somehow in 247 00:15:20,440 --> 00:15:23,640 Speaker 2: these so called Zodiac killings. And I still don't know 248 00:15:23,680 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 2: that there's substance proof that these kind of interlaced that 249 00:15:28,480 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 2: what they have said or interlaced cases are actually connected. 250 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 2: I don't know that there's ever been positive proof that 251 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 2: that you know, that actually happened was. 252 00:15:37,320 --> 00:15:43,200 Speaker 3: In the Zodiac, similar to Berkowitz, you know, shooting couples, and. 253 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, there was the elements of that. You had the 254 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 2: one cab driver that was like, what's that area that's 255 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: like really really ritzy in or used to be in 256 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: in Is it spy Spyglass Hill or whatever? It's like 257 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: a naghtor I can't remember that. I love Samrich, I 258 00:15:55,800 --> 00:16:00,560 Speaker 2: used to love San Francisco. But he was shot. He Cabby, 259 00:16:00,640 --> 00:16:02,360 Speaker 2: he was shot. He was a single that was shot 260 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,800 Speaker 2: there in his car and they had the lovers on 261 00:16:04,880 --> 00:16:09,040 Speaker 2: lover Lane, the lover's lane. Then he varies and attacks 262 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 2: this young couple out by lake with a knife, right, 263 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 2: you know that sort of thing, kind of change. But 264 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,000 Speaker 2: with those cases there was this is a big standout 265 00:16:17,000 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 2: to me. There was no dismemberment. 266 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:20,240 Speaker 3: This I was going to ask you, Yeah, I don't 267 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,440 Speaker 3: remember anything ever being And yet the Dahlia is a 268 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 3: one off. You know, we don't have another case in 269 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: southern California within that same time frame where anything like 270 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 3: what happened with Elizabeth Short was reported as happening again. 271 00:16:33,760 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 3: And somebody who would go to this great effort to 272 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 3: present the body in such a way where the sharp 273 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 3: where it wasn't an amateur or wasn't somebody who didn't 274 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 3: know what they were doing cut up her body. Right, 275 00:16:47,120 --> 00:16:49,160 Speaker 3: you were talking about how her body was positioned a 276 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:54,880 Speaker 3: little off center, but still the cutting was professional or experienced. Yes, 277 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,360 Speaker 3: straining of the blood was experienced. I mean, there was 278 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 3: a lot going on with that one body. And it 279 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 3: doesn't seem like people start at that level. It's like 280 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,280 Speaker 3: they grow into that level. 281 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:11,280 Speaker 2: Right, And a corpse is a corpse, you know, like 282 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:15,159 Speaker 2: if you can turn someone by your own hand into 283 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:19,960 Speaker 2: a corpse, in other words, kill them that body. 284 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: That body. 285 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,120 Speaker 2: People love to throw the around, the term around objectification 286 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 2: all the time, and they use it, I think incorrectly. 287 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:34,320 Speaker 2: This is truly the epitome of turning turning a person 288 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 2: into a doll, if you will, and breaking that person 289 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 2: apart by any means necessary. But it fits this case, 290 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 2: does at least the black Dolue fits into one specific category. 291 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,520 Speaker 2: Some of the stuff I'm going to reveal might just 292 00:17:49,560 --> 00:18:09,240 Speaker 2: shock you. I hate the wide question, but dismemberment is 293 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: one of those things where you'll get that a lot. 294 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,639 Speaker 2: Why why why would? And I think that it's one 295 00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 2: of these things that people cannot take the measure of, 296 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 2: Dave because they it's so foreign, because it's so grotesque 297 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,719 Speaker 2: and over the top. And you and I have spoken 298 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 2: about this in the past where you know, I'll say it. 299 00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 2: It wasn't enough just to kill the person. You've got 300 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 2: to go another step deeper into evil here. And so 301 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 2: with that said, I felt that it was incumbent upon 302 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 2: us to kind of to kind of talk about, you know, 303 00:18:50,480 --> 00:18:52,959 Speaker 2: some of these some of these cases, and you know, 304 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:57,359 Speaker 2: the first the first stop along the tour here is 305 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 2: something that's called defensive of dismemberment. And most of the 306 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: time this is more of a this this is dismemberment 307 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:15,160 Speaker 2: is used. It has specific utility. In other words, you 308 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 2: can't you cannot move the body. You have to do 309 00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: something after you have killed an individual, to fragment or 310 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: to parse up or however you want to frame it. Uh, 311 00:19:31,240 --> 00:19:34,399 Speaker 2: you have to break this body down into elements just 312 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:37,159 Speaker 2: to make it manageable. David. Some some of these cases, 313 00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 2: these people can be rather rotund because that's very difficult 314 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 2: to manage. Or there's a reason they call it dead weight. 315 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: And what's you know, really kind of ghastly about this. 316 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 2: Dismemberment of a morbidly obese person is particularly nasty business. 317 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 2: And there are a multiplicity of reasons why. But it 318 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:05,320 Speaker 2: just it takes it to a whole new level. But 319 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:11,720 Speaker 2: I think if I remember correctly, Dave, there was a 320 00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: case that you and I and it wasn't so much 321 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 2: this case. It was out of Oklahoma. This case had 322 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: anything to do with you had somebody that was morbidly obese. 323 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: You had and you and I were both shocked by this. 324 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: I remember when we laid this down, we had multiple 325 00:20:33,240 --> 00:20:34,760 Speaker 2: people that were dissected. 326 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 1: Dave. I know. 327 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 3: And when you're talking about four men, Okay, immediately, I'm 328 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,239 Speaker 3: gonna be honest with you, that shocks me. And I 329 00:20:44,280 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 3: don't think it should shock me anymore than any other 330 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 3: group of four that were found dead and are pulled 331 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,240 Speaker 3: from a river. But Joe, the fact that we've got 332 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,359 Speaker 3: four men and they were all very young, and I 333 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 3: mean we're talking twenty nine, thirty and thirty two. That 334 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 3: just tells you a lot about the men who were killed, 335 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:06,359 Speaker 3: But it doesn't tell you a whole lot else. Show 336 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 3: are police chief there at the time, his name of 337 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,880 Speaker 3: Joe Prentiss, and he actually said at a news conference 338 00:21:14,680 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 3: all four bodies were dismembered before being placed in the river, 339 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:23,800 Speaker 3: and that is what caused difficulty in determining identities, and 340 00:21:23,840 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 3: that's why it took so long. So do they know 341 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,359 Speaker 3: where they all killed at the same time, in the 342 00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 3: same place and then taken out in a job boat 343 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:34,440 Speaker 3: and tossed over the sidelight. 344 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 2: Chum that's an excellent question, and there's not too much. 345 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 2: You know, there's not a lot you know, in a river. 346 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 2: River is going to act. You know, in some landlocked 347 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 2: place like Oklahoma where this took place, river is going 348 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: to primarily. 349 00:21:51,240 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: Be used to. 350 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:56,159 Speaker 2: Disguise a body, all right, because there's not It's not 351 00:21:56,200 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 2: like you're going to the Everglades or South Louisiana. You 352 00:21:58,560 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 2: know where you got the swamp. Crawfish will feed on bodies. 353 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 2: Most lakes, most ponds and creeks and rivers in that 354 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 2: area of the country have got plenty of crawfish, and 355 00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 2: there might be as the body begins to soften, you 356 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 2: can have other scavengers that might come along, like catfish. 357 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:26,600 Speaker 2: Probably to a certain degree. Other species might feed on bodies, 358 00:22:27,119 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 2: but you're not going to have kind of the wholesale 359 00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 2: total disruption of the body. Now, the aquatic environment is 360 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:39,720 Speaker 2: going to break break these bits down quicker because the 361 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 2: body is in fact dissected. If I'm not mistaken, was 362 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,159 Speaker 2: it in this particular case. I can't remember the the 363 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 2: guy used tools in this and it seems like they 364 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: were power tools. I'm not mistaken. And what had happened 365 00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,880 Speaker 2: is the perpetrator in this case, coffees fell stealing from 366 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 2: him and he owned like a junk yard or something 367 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 2: like this. And what's really weird is these guys had 368 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 2: showed up on bicycles to do this. That kind of 369 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,160 Speaker 2: stood out in my mind as what. 370 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,119 Speaker 3: It does because you're dealing with you know what, if 371 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,479 Speaker 3: you're twenty nine years old, thirty thirty two and you're 372 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,920 Speaker 3: riding a bicycle, Yeah, everybody does that when they're seven. 373 00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:24,119 Speaker 3: Not when you're thirty, unless you're mountain biking or in 374 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,359 Speaker 3: a race for something. Unless you have you don't just 375 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 3: tool around town or. 376 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,399 Speaker 2: If you live in London or New York, right, but 377 00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 2: not in rural Oklahoma, and I can't. And these guys 378 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: were These guys were big guys, and you know, they 379 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 2: were like outdoorsy kind of guys. A couple of them, 380 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:42,960 Speaker 2: they're they're they're they obviously used you know, the news 381 00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:47,080 Speaker 2: media use these images of these subjects wearing like utility 382 00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:50,160 Speaker 2: worker vests. These guys or like they were road crew. 383 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,919 Speaker 2: These guys had worked out, they were hard workers, you know, 384 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,399 Speaker 2: or worked, you know, worked in the real world. They 385 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: both got those kind of farmer tans going on in 386 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:02,320 Speaker 2: this sort of thing. But apparently this guy thought that 387 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: they were stealing from him. And you know, I remember 388 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 2: after this guy facilitated this, and I remember telling you 389 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: at the time, there's no telling what type of instruments 390 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,840 Speaker 2: this guy had because he ran he ran a junk yard, 391 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 2: and you know, you if you're doing dealing with things 392 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 2: like scrap metal, there's all kinds of ways to break 393 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:23,760 Speaker 2: up bodies. But this is going to be a defensive 394 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:29,639 Speaker 2: dismemberment because he's trying to put as much distance between 395 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: himself and these bodies as he can. He's got to 396 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 2: do something to dispose of them. When you begin to 397 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:38,120 Speaker 2: think about, you know, what am I going to do 398 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 2: with with four grown men and their bodies. What's kind 399 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 2: of odd about this is that even after this had done, 400 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,280 Speaker 2: he went to all the trouble to dissect the bodies. 401 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 2: I guess he's sitting around wringing his hands, because he bolts. 402 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 2: He hops in a car and drives off to Florida. 403 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 2: At this point in time. Of course, they eventually catch 404 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,919 Speaker 2: this guy. But you know, one more point I'd like 405 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 2: to make about this case is the fact that when 406 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:10,400 Speaker 2: they're trying to put these bodies back together, you've got 407 00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: four guys that probably all approximate the same size. And 408 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,400 Speaker 2: when you take four bodies and let's just say they're 409 00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 2: all bisected, okay, which just means cut in two. I 410 00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 2: think that there was probably more extensive cutting than that. 411 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 2: You still have to put pieces together to make them match. 412 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:32,120 Speaker 2: And it's not like it's some kind of toy set 413 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 2: where it's you insert slot B into slot A and 414 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 2: you've got a connection with this piece. It's not like 415 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 2: that because you're having to scientifically connect them together, which 416 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: can be problematic. But in this case, you've got an 417 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:53,200 Speaker 2: individual that used the facility of his location in order 418 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,040 Speaker 2: to make this happen and try to get as much 419 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:02,159 Speaker 2: distance between him and the bodies. It's because many people 420 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: will essentially kill people and not put distance between themselves 421 00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,199 Speaker 2: and leave them around. This guy made an effort to 422 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 2: get these bodies away from him, and it's still the 423 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 2: wheel still came off, Dave. 424 00:26:13,840 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 3: You know interesting you use that term because they never 425 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 3: located the bicycles that these four men took out of 426 00:26:21,560 --> 00:26:23,560 Speaker 3: the house. You know, they'd leave one of the family 427 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:28,040 Speaker 3: member's homes and all four of these adult men go 428 00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,639 Speaker 3: tooling at nine o'clock at night. Down the road, they 429 00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 3: end up at Joseph Kennedy salvageyard, where they're up to 430 00:26:33,840 --> 00:26:36,119 Speaker 3: no good. And by the way, police got this information 431 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:40,719 Speaker 3: from a fifth man who was invited onto the crime spree, 432 00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:43,400 Speaker 3: and he's the one that went to police. I don't 433 00:26:43,400 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 3: know if he came to them after they went missing, 434 00:26:46,000 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 3: before the bodies were found, don't know, but they did 435 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,360 Speaker 3: have an insider that came up and said, hey, they 436 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 3: were stealing stuff and I was invited, but I didn't 437 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 3: go or I'd have been in there with them. And 438 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 3: that's how they were able to tie this together. Because 439 00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 3: if you just find body parts floating in a river, 440 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,040 Speaker 3: you know, that's a that's a tough sell. And you 441 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,439 Speaker 3: mentioned Kennedy. Joseph Kennedy takes off, you know, for Daytona, Florida, 442 00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:10,239 Speaker 3: which is where they got him. And they rested him 443 00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:13,359 Speaker 3: there in Daytona, Florida, and had to a Daytona beach 444 00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:17,720 Speaker 3: and had to actually extradute him back to Oklahoma where 445 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 3: he was formerly charged with four counts of first degree murder. 446 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 3: And they never I don't think they ever found the 447 00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,399 Speaker 3: gun that he shot them first. Okay, he kills them 448 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 3: with a gun. Then he dismembers them. 449 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, because you can't. What's he going to do. He's 450 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 2: going to try to knock each one of these guys 451 00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,919 Speaker 2: in the head with a ball pen hair. You have 452 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 2: to do this quickly in order to knock these guys 453 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: down and take them by surprise. And you know that, 454 00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,400 Speaker 2: you know that that goes into the elements of what 455 00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 2: would be the motivation. Because I don't know about you, 456 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,760 Speaker 2: but I've had things stolen from me and I do 457 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,760 Speaker 2: have rage. I'm sure you've had rage. When you've had 458 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,320 Speaker 2: things that have stolen from you, you have anger it, 459 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: you know, on the surface, it does make you, I think, aggressive, 460 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:10,120 Speaker 2: But it's not the same as the second type of dismemberment, 461 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: which is actually referred to as aggressive dismemberment. Now, you know, 462 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: how do we kind of break this down with aggressive dismemberment, 463 00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: which is number two along our continuum here of dismemberments. 464 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 2: It's the second most common. It's most of the time 465 00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,639 Speaker 2: it is there is a little fire that's burning within 466 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 2: somebody where they are angry over probably a protracted period 467 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:47,680 Speaker 2: of time. They might see themselves as failure. They might 468 00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 2: not want to be held accountable for something horrific that 469 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,080 Speaker 2: they have done. And I say horrific, that's not the 470 00:28:57,080 --> 00:29:01,960 Speaker 2: correct word. Let's just say that. In the case of 471 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: Chandler Halderson out of Wisconsin, his whole thing was he 472 00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 2: had been lying to both his mom and dad, Dave 473 00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 2: for a protracted period of time, deceiving them, you know, 474 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 2: trying to you know, trying to make them think that 475 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 2: he was out in the job market, that he's working, 476 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 2: and they're confronting him about this, and all of a sudden, 477 00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: this kid snaps. You have to think that, you know, 478 00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 2: it was his motivation, anger and laziness, you know, and 479 00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: that one moment that he decided to put ford motion 480 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:39,320 Speaker 2: into his life. He didn't do it in the area 481 00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: of studying to improve himself or whatever. I know what 482 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 2: I'm going to do. I'm going to kill my parents 483 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: and then I'm gonna you know, split them up into 484 00:29:50,960 --> 00:29:53,120 Speaker 2: pieces and try to get rid of their bodies. 485 00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 3: Dave, and he actually, I had to cover this case. Yeah, 486 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:01,720 Speaker 3: I think you run it a lot too. 487 00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: I was, and I was. 488 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 3: We spent a lot of time looking at the case 489 00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 3: piece by piece literally to try to determine what really 490 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,840 Speaker 3: was going on. Here because I think sometimes when we see, 491 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 3: especially a child that attacks parents, we try to think 492 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,880 Speaker 3: was there something underlying? Was there something else here? Because 493 00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,960 Speaker 3: for us we think there has to be something more. 494 00:30:26,040 --> 00:30:29,120 Speaker 3: It couldn't really have just been that he had been 495 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,560 Speaker 3: lying for so long and he knew he was caught 496 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 3: and they were going to cut off funding his lifestyle. 497 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 3: You know that he was the jig was up, and 498 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 3: now he's left with, well, if I kill them, I'll 499 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 3: get all their stuff and live my life. You know, 500 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 3: that's where we get stuck with that sometimes because we 501 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:46,840 Speaker 3: have to we in our own minds have to figure 502 00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 3: out why would anybody do this? Yes, and there is 503 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 3: no rhyme or reason to it. It really makes no 504 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 3: sense when you've got a young person that chooses this 505 00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 3: path as a decision they think is a good way 506 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 3: to go about life right now for them and their parents. 507 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:07,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that he you know, I guess again, 508 00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 2: this goes to motivation and it's not necessarily my Bailey Wick. 509 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 2: But when you see what he did to their bodies, 510 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:21,040 Speaker 2: he's got them, you know, he's got He's got them 511 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 2: in multiple pieces, and he's you can tell that he's 512 00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 2: kind of frenzied because he's trying to decide how he's 513 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 2: going to divest himself of his parents' remains. Can you 514 00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 2: imagine being that? Well, I don't think you can. Hopefully 515 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 2: you can't, but hopefully neither can I. But all of 516 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 2: a sudden you're faced with kind of eye popping situation 517 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 2: where it's like, oh, okay, I've literally pulled the trigger 518 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,120 Speaker 2: on my parents, and what am I going to do now? 519 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 3: Multiple gunshot wounds, you know, yeah, they did it was 520 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 3: a hunting accident. You're not you know, you're not out 521 00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 3: hunting with Dick Cheney. You can't say it was an 522 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 3: accident right to your parents. They've got multiple gunshot wounds. 523 00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 3: So your next best choice, I mean, think about it. 524 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:02,200 Speaker 3: The best choice this guy had made led him to this. 525 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,440 Speaker 3: So we're not dealing with a mental or mature individual. 526 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 3: We're dealing with an idiot who chose one idiot action 527 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 3: after another. 528 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: Man. 529 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 3: You mentioned frenzied in his way of dismembering. Yes, how 530 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 3: would that be different in terms of what you would 531 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:20,719 Speaker 3: see as you're looking at the I hate to make 532 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,680 Speaker 3: it sound like you're putting a puzzle together, but I 533 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:25,640 Speaker 3: would imagine that's what you're doing trying to figure out everything. 534 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, you are you. 535 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 2: You're in a situation where I think that you cannot. 536 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:36,560 Speaker 2: You don't your brain is not ordered to the point. 537 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 2: And this actually goes, I think to the fact that 538 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 2: he's not some psychopath, because a psychopath could actually sit 539 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 2: there and think about very in a very ordered manner. 540 00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 2: If they're going to do this, this is you know, 541 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 2: part A, Part B, Part C. That's not what he did. 542 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 2: He even attempted to burn the bodies in in the 543 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:04,720 Speaker 2: I think, in the fireplace in the home. He winds 544 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:09,320 Speaker 2: up distributing the bodies at a cabin that was up 545 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,959 Speaker 2: the road, you know, from the family home. And you know, 546 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,800 Speaker 2: he's lied about what became of them. Where did they go? 547 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:21,240 Speaker 1: He's the one that reported him missing. 548 00:33:21,600 --> 00:33:24,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, and if I remember correctly, he walked down the 549 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: road to neighbors' houses and asked them, have you seen 550 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:30,479 Speaker 2: my parents? And the one thing that really stands out 551 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,240 Speaker 2: to me is there's that that one woman they had 552 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:36,320 Speaker 2: a video of her. I don't know if she had 553 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,480 Speaker 2: her phone out or whatever it was, she let him 554 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:41,160 Speaker 2: in her house. And this is in the wake of this, 555 00:33:41,320 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 2: and he's like I'm just here looking for my parents. 556 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 2: Can you help me? And I'm thinking, oh, my lord, boy, 557 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,040 Speaker 2: did she dodge bullet? This case, Dave, and I don't 558 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,840 Speaker 2: know if you remember this, but this case is not 559 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: too dissimilar from one other one that was an aggressive 560 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,479 Speaker 2: dismemberment and it was the two women. It was a 561 00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,240 Speaker 2: daughter and a granddaughter. And this was in Maryland. 562 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:09,400 Speaker 1: Oh yes, I remember, in the basement, yeah. 563 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:15,239 Speaker 2: Yeah, where the daughter had killed the grandmother and they 564 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,440 Speaker 2: they had used or she had used a chainsaw and 565 00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 2: made her daughter act as a lookout to see if 566 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 2: the sisters of grandmother were going to show up. And 567 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,480 Speaker 2: what makes this so I think that this was again 568 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 2: another aggression related kind of thing with the dismemberment, what 569 00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:40,920 Speaker 2: are you going to do? Because they tried this is 570 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,799 Speaker 2: the part that got me. Not that the rest of 571 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,279 Speaker 2: it with a chainsaw and everything doesn't get me. But 572 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 2: they tried to render her down on a barbecue grill 573 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:49,040 Speaker 2: in the backyard. 574 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: Yep. 575 00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,799 Speaker 2: And again that goes to you this anger. There's no 576 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 2: honoring of the dead here. And actually she retained the 577 00:34:57,280 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 2: body parts. They were in the basement, in the basement, 578 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 2: down down in the house where she had actually been killed. 579 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 2: She had been killed up in her room, and so 580 00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 2: there was a lot of blood deposition. You've got a 581 00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 2: chainsaw that generates high velocity blood deposition almost looks like 582 00:35:14,360 --> 00:35:18,359 Speaker 2: high velocity gunshot wounds, and it would be everywhere. One 583 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 2: of the most messy undertakings that you can possibly have. 584 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 2: But you know, we've left you with two at this point, 585 00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: we've still got, believe it or not, three more different 586 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 2: types of dismemberment to go hold onto your hat. We've 587 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,279 Speaker 2: had this discussion going Dave about the types of dismemberment, 588 00:35:57,640 --> 00:36:01,279 Speaker 2: probably one of the most chilling ones that you know, 589 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 2: they're all chilling by their own right, but there is 590 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:07,880 Speaker 2: there is a type of dismemberment that is out there 591 00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:15,080 Speaker 2: that actually drives a person. It's I think that that 592 00:36:15,160 --> 00:36:20,960 Speaker 2: the actual dismemberment of the body is the end game. 593 00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:23,239 Speaker 2: It's the thrill of it. 594 00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:23,720 Speaker 1: Wow. 595 00:36:24,920 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 2: Because there is a sexual connotation. I think that even 596 00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 2: if you look perhaps back at the Gainsol Ripper, you 597 00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 2: know that the movie screen was based on there was 598 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: a sexual element to that. I believe. I believe there 599 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 2: were at least one, maybe two. I can't recall. My 600 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 2: brain's foggy, right, now the decapitations, but you know, with 601 00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 2: with with offensive dismemberment, there's an element that they believe 602 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 2: that is sexual in nature. The person probably has a 603 00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:03,879 Speaker 2: taste of sadism. That's part of who they are. It's 604 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 2: part of the person that they are. The you know, 605 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,680 Speaker 2: the case I think that first came to mind for 606 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,200 Speaker 2: me and I mentioned this case a lot because it's 607 00:37:13,239 --> 00:37:18,480 Speaker 2: so horrific is the murder of Ingrad Lynn up in Seattle, 608 00:37:18,920 --> 00:37:20,800 Speaker 2: you know where she had been on a dating app 609 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 2: and you know, she was a nurse, had two small kids, 610 00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,879 Speaker 2: had a good relationship with their ex husband. I think 611 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,919 Speaker 2: the ex husband was Yeah, she was gorgeous, had you know, 612 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 2: the ex husband had the kids, so she could go 613 00:37:33,560 --> 00:37:35,839 Speaker 2: out on a date. They went to a Mariner's ball 614 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 2: game in Seattle, and they being the person that she 615 00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 2: hooked up with on the dating app, David, This this did. 616 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:45,720 Speaker 1: Not end well. 617 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,879 Speaker 3: John Robert Charlton was his name. Yeah, takes her out 618 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 3: to us a Seattle Mariner's game. What a great first date, 619 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:55,320 Speaker 3: you know if you're. 620 00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:57,120 Speaker 2: That's I Hey, nook, I got to say that was 621 00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:58,279 Speaker 2: mine and Kim's first date. 622 00:37:58,640 --> 00:37:58,960 Speaker 1: Man. 623 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:03,400 Speaker 2: We went to see the Toronto Blue Jays in interleague 624 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 2: play against the Braves. Wow, it took her on a 625 00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,719 Speaker 2: Friday night. Yeah, I'll never forget. It was nineteen ninety eight. 626 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,600 Speaker 2: John Smoltz pitched and he lost four to Oh. 627 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,800 Speaker 3: Wow, you should have never gone out with her again 628 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:19,640 Speaker 3: after that. I'll come on at any rate. So Charleton 629 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,839 Speaker 3: takes her out and they go on this date. And 630 00:38:23,200 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 3: you mentioned the ex husband watching the children so she 631 00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 3: could go on this date, which is there are a 632 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 3: few people that I know, thankfully, who have survived the 633 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:35,160 Speaker 3: divorce and maintained a good relationship for their children, and 634 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 3: that's what they were attempting to do. Which that tells 635 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 3: me a lot about the person we're talking about here 636 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,920 Speaker 3: in Ingrid's case, because it takes a certain intestinal fortitude, 637 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,480 Speaker 3: but others first, and to put herself in a position 638 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:51,640 Speaker 3: with this person she doesn't know, and to go to 639 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 3: a very safe first date in the ball game, she's 640 00:38:56,000 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 3: reported missing the next day and she's last seen, you know, 641 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 3: going out on the date. The thing that got me 642 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:08,840 Speaker 3: about this one, and you might have to correct me, 643 00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 3: because wasn't it a homeowner? 644 00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:12,280 Speaker 2: Yeah? 645 00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 3: That had because Seattle being what it is, not knocking, 646 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:18,600 Speaker 3: and my sister lives in Seattle and. 647 00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 1: She's a school teacher. 648 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,120 Speaker 3: But my sister they have they have cans, you know, 649 00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,879 Speaker 3: between recycling and not recycling, and boy, if you put 650 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 3: the wrong thing in the wrong can, you're in trouble. 651 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:34,279 Speaker 3: And that's what came to mind on this, because this 652 00:39:34,360 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 3: had something to do with the recycling that caused this 653 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,040 Speaker 3: neighbor to look and go, hey, this ain't mine. 654 00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:40,919 Speaker 1: I didn't put this here. 655 00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,319 Speaker 2: Yeah, he went out there and goes to you know, 656 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,240 Speaker 2: when if you live in a city that does trash 657 00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 2: pick up and you go you put your ben out 658 00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:56,799 Speaker 2: by the road, when you go to pull it back in, 659 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 2: you don't expect it to still be heavy. No, okay, 660 00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 2: So this guy is pulling the trash ben back in. 661 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 2: It's heavy. He's like, what is this? He opens the 662 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,600 Speaker 2: lid up. If I remember correctly, he's staring down at 663 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:14,120 Speaker 2: a foot yes and yeah. No, it's one of the 664 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:15,240 Speaker 2: most horrific things. 665 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:17,279 Speaker 1: And here's where my mind went. 666 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, when we first had this, Joe, my first thought was, Okay, 667 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:26,160 Speaker 3: the case is broken because this homeowner, because the homeowner 668 00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 3: had the body was in his trash hand as he's 669 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 3: pulling it back up. If the killer had been a 670 00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 3: couple hours or minutes earlier. Yep, she would have been 671 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,439 Speaker 3: in the trash and nobody would have known. 672 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:45,279 Speaker 2: No, I'm so glad you said that, because that's indicative 673 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 2: of a tom Stamp relative when that particular remain was 674 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,799 Speaker 2: placed in there. So you know that he must have 675 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 2: deposited this after the trash run had taken place, you know, 676 00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,600 Speaker 2: because you wouldn't have had this reaction from the home, right, 677 00:41:00,719 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 2: So dragging it back in looks down and I can't 678 00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:06,600 Speaker 2: even imagine, you know, I've got visions of myself walking 679 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:08,600 Speaker 2: up my bathroom with a cup of coffee in my hand, 680 00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,480 Speaker 2: and I'm walking back up the driveway, you know, with 681 00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,239 Speaker 2: the bind trailing behind me, and you feel this weight 682 00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,719 Speaker 2: and you open it up. And as it turns out, 683 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:22,239 Speaker 2: when she did not show up to pick up the 684 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 2: kids or no, wait, that wasn't the way it was, 685 00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 2: the husband ex husband brought the kids back to their home, 686 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:33,200 Speaker 2: she didn't answer the door, and he's like one of 687 00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:35,319 Speaker 2: the first people I think it was. It was one 688 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:39,319 Speaker 2: of her relatives that he alerted to call the mom. 689 00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:43,799 Speaker 2: They made entry and she's nowhere to be found. And 690 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 2: that was just so far outside of the norm. But 691 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 2: you know what was eventually discovered other than her remains 692 00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,880 Speaker 2: after a period of time that had been you know, 693 00:41:56,960 --> 00:42:01,600 Speaker 2: subsequently deposited in various bends around the air area. They 694 00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 2: discovered that whoever did this had actually used a limb saw, 695 00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 2: which if you think about the big curved handle, you know, 696 00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 2: with a thin. 697 00:42:11,680 --> 00:42:15,359 Speaker 1: Blade hands like a handsaw, not a power saw. 698 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,160 Speaker 2: No, not a power saw, but like a limbsaw. And 699 00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,040 Speaker 2: so and he did this in the bathroom because you 700 00:42:22,080 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 2: could see they still had they had trace evidence around 701 00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 2: the drain. They had it in the drain trap of 702 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,120 Speaker 2: blood and tissue. Because you're going to generate if you, 703 00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 2: I urge everybody, if you get a chance to take 704 00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 2: a look at one of these saws, look down the 705 00:42:37,960 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 2: long axis of the saw, and you'll see that the 706 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 2: teeth are not perfectly aligned. They're kind of offset a 707 00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,920 Speaker 2: little bit. Well, have you ever wondered why when you 708 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:48,319 Speaker 2: look at one of these saws, if you ever saw 709 00:42:48,400 --> 00:42:50,600 Speaker 2: the limb off, there's a lot of sawdust that gets 710 00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 2: caught up in there. And that's because it's very destructive, okay, 711 00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,840 Speaker 2: very very destructive. It really goes through these limbs in 712 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,680 Speaker 2: a very efficient way. However, it gather up all of 713 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 2: this dust and the bark and everything else that's particulated 714 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,840 Speaker 2: at that point in time. It's the same thing with 715 00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,200 Speaker 2: bone and muscle and any kind of sinew that it 716 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 2: goes through, and the skin and the hair. You know, 717 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 2: you'll get that caught up on the blade as well. 718 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:17,000 Speaker 3: You know, Joe, how they got him, you know how 719 00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,040 Speaker 3: they figured out who it was? Please tell me it 720 00:43:19,120 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 3: was her mom. 721 00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:20,040 Speaker 1: Okay? 722 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:23,080 Speaker 3: When when the mom is called by the ex husband 723 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,400 Speaker 3: and they make entry into her house, Okay, she's not 724 00:43:26,560 --> 00:43:29,319 Speaker 3: Lynna's not home, angry, she's nowhere to be found. And 725 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 3: so they look around and they find her purse, and 726 00:43:31,719 --> 00:43:35,000 Speaker 3: they find her phone. Mom picks up her phone and 727 00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,520 Speaker 3: she knows who she was going to go out on 728 00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 3: a date with, knowing that she was going out with Charlton. 729 00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,359 Speaker 3: So what does she do? Using the cell phone in 730 00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 3: the residence, Lenn's mother calls Charlton and hey, what happened? 731 00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:52,520 Speaker 1: Where is she? 732 00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,719 Speaker 3: And as soon as she hung up from the phone, 733 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 3: she called the police. She used herself, her daughter's cell 734 00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 3: phone to call the police and say hey, or actually, 735 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 3: you know what, she sent a text to Charlton that's 736 00:44:05,320 --> 00:44:07,520 Speaker 3: what it was. It was not voice of his text. Sorry, 737 00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,319 Speaker 3: and then she called the police and that's when they 738 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:12,319 Speaker 3: discovered the blood and everything else a Charlton's place. 739 00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:17,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're trying to say, you know, the police 740 00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,080 Speaker 2: are trying to pet upon attended. I keep following in 741 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,280 Speaker 2: that trap. They're trying to put this thing together relative 742 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:26,279 Speaker 2: to who she had finally had contact with. And look 743 00:44:26,280 --> 00:44:28,279 Speaker 2: at the top of this. And what's really weird, Dave, 744 00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:32,600 Speaker 2: is this perpetrator is homeless man, you know, and he 745 00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 2: when you see him in the interviews, he looks like 746 00:44:35,280 --> 00:44:38,600 Speaker 2: a kind of a well put together guy, but he's 747 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,600 Speaker 2: living on streets, you know, up in Seattle, unlike you know, 748 00:44:43,680 --> 00:44:46,600 Speaker 2: the case involving and we're I can't say we're just 749 00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:48,879 Speaker 2: coming off of this. It seems like it has been 750 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 2: going on forever and ever. And this is that damn 751 00:44:52,120 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 2: Taylorship business case as well. And again I think this 752 00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,959 Speaker 2: falls into the category of offensive dismemberment because this poor 753 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 2: guy that she just absolutely wrecked, he he's kind of 754 00:45:07,320 --> 00:45:10,759 Speaker 2: this to me. He just he always came off and 755 00:45:10,800 --> 00:45:14,200 Speaker 2: everything that I read about him, everything that I saw, 756 00:45:15,400 --> 00:45:19,239 Speaker 2: he kind of came off as as kind of a 757 00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:25,239 Speaker 2: passive kind of guy. She's twenty five. Shad Tyron, who 758 00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 2: is the victim here, is twenty four. You know, she's 759 00:45:29,880 --> 00:45:33,680 Speaker 2: actually charged in this case, Dave of you know, like 760 00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,279 Speaker 2: I said, and that's why I believe it goes to 761 00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 2: this homicide obviously because she killed him, but third degree 762 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,600 Speaker 2: sexual abuse and mutilating a corpse. Yeah, and you know 763 00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:48,200 Speaker 2: she had she had actually done this down in the 764 00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:50,879 Speaker 2: basement of his mother's home. 765 00:45:50,960 --> 00:45:51,200 Speaker 1: Man. 766 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:57,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know it was it was Shad Durian's 767 00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:04,560 Speaker 3: mom who actually discovered yeah, and parts of his anatomy, 768 00:46:04,760 --> 00:46:05,600 Speaker 3: parts of his body. 769 00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 2: Yep. 770 00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:12,680 Speaker 3: And police found that her business used knives that were 771 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,600 Speaker 3: found in the home. Okay, just knives found in the 772 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:22,439 Speaker 3: home Joe to dismember a body after after she killed him, 773 00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:25,840 Speaker 3: she continued to have sex with his dead body. Now, 774 00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:30,400 Speaker 3: there are so many questions I have about that that, 775 00:46:30,440 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 3: to be honest with you, I don't even want to 776 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,040 Speaker 3: ask because I don't want my. 777 00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:36,640 Speaker 1: Brain to go down that path. Right, But immediately I'm thinking, really, that's. 778 00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,880 Speaker 3: I know that you cannot just say just because I 779 00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:44,680 Speaker 3: don't understand the proclivity that it makes that person insane. 780 00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 3: I just can't think of a sane person who would 781 00:46:47,160 --> 00:46:50,160 Speaker 3: do that. But based on her activity and what she 782 00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 3: did after and the way she presents herself, yep, I 783 00:46:53,600 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 3: think she perfectly knew exactly what she was doing the 784 00:46:56,360 --> 00:47:01,799 Speaker 3: entire time, because it wasn't oops, messed up it was 785 00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't. Hey man, we're into this really 786 00:47:04,800 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 3: kinky stuff. We like to take it really close to 787 00:47:06,640 --> 00:47:09,799 Speaker 3: death as we climax. It wasn't any of that, Joe. 788 00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 2: No, No, it wasn't. And that's why I think that 789 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:16,560 Speaker 2: she's touched by sadism here. I don't mean satanism, I 790 00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:21,640 Speaker 2: mean sadism. She has this desire, I think, to inflict pain, 791 00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,560 Speaker 2: and I think through the pain and the sexual dominant 792 00:47:24,640 --> 00:47:28,359 Speaker 2: dominance that she exerted over this guy, not just in life, Dave, 793 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,359 Speaker 2: but in death as well. I think that that came 794 00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,600 Speaker 2: out at the end game here. Just like with all 795 00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:38,480 Speaker 2: of these offensive dismemberment cases, it plays out so that 796 00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:44,799 Speaker 2: it's a it's it's an event where these individuals can 797 00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 2: in fact bring themselves to sexual satisfaction, even if it 798 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:58,640 Speaker 2: means murder and dismemberment. That was part one of the 799 00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 2: types of implement Part two is coming up. I'm Joseph 800 00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:11,200 Speaker 2: Scott Morgan and this is body backsh