1 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, and welcome back to the Psychology of Your Twenties, 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: the podcast where we talk through some of the big 3 00:00:12,520 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: life changes and transitions of our twenties and what they 4 00:00:16,960 --> 00:00:25,520 Speaker 1: mean for our psychology. Before we get into this episode, 5 00:00:25,640 --> 00:00:27,840 Speaker 1: I do want to let you know that this conversation 6 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 1: does include discussions of domestic violence and sexual abuse. There 7 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: will be resources in the description of this episode if 8 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: you need or require further help or information, but listener 9 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 1: discretion is advised. Hello everybody, and welcome back to the podcast. 10 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: Welcome back to the show, new listeners, old listeners, wherever 11 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: you are in the world today, we have an incredible 12 00:00:58,760 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: story and incredible guest on the show to share their 13 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:09,959 Speaker 1: experience with overcoming adversity and hardship, mainly a trauma and 14 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,160 Speaker 1: an event that happened during their twenties. 15 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 2: I think it's always phenomenal and a good idea to 16 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,840 Speaker 2: view our lives as more than this decade and receive 17 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 2: the input from someone who has lived through their twenties, 18 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 2: lived through some incredibly hard things, and come through it 19 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 2: so that they can teach us, teach us the way 20 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 2: and show us that there is a path forward. So amy, 21 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:38,600 Speaker 2: it is so amazing to have you on the show. 22 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:41,240 Speaker 2: Can you introduce yourself for the audience? 23 00:01:42,319 --> 00:01:44,920 Speaker 3: Oh lord, you know it's funny. I don't get nervous often, 24 00:01:44,920 --> 00:01:47,080 Speaker 3: but I don't know why I'm a little nervous right now. 25 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 3: That was quite the introduction in such a beautiful, you know, 26 00:01:51,080 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 3: space to enter, So thank you. I my name is 27 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 3: Amy B. Chessler, and I am an author, a podcaster, 28 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 3: a mom first and foremost, to be honest, I should 29 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 3: have said that first, and I am a victim advocate. 30 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 3: I often start by sharing my story by saying I 31 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 3: am a victim and also a survivor of domestic violence. 32 00:02:14,120 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 3: My mother, however, is not She did not survive the 33 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:22,560 Speaker 3: domestic violence we faced. So just I'll I guess a 34 00:02:22,639 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 3: long story short, because I do believe my upbringing led 35 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 3: to me led me to the culmination of a lot 36 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 3: of abuse and trauma in my early twenties. But long 37 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,239 Speaker 3: story short, I was raised by a very tenacious, strong 38 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:41,160 Speaker 3: single mother. I grew up in Calabasas, California, So like 39 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 3: the Kardashians like, which was a not reality again, Like 40 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,240 Speaker 3: there's really a lot of reality TV made about the place, 41 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 3: but there's it's not a reality based place. However, I 42 00:02:53,160 --> 00:02:55,519 Speaker 3: was raised by a single mom and we didn't have 43 00:02:55,960 --> 00:03:01,480 Speaker 3: a lot of means. My brother was ostracized there because, 44 00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 3: you know, again we in the eighties nineties, we didn't 45 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 3: have the cool stuff that everybody else had. We kind 46 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 3: of were just scraping by. We were latchkey kids, and 47 00:03:10,040 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 3: we both got picked on a lot. But he just 48 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 3: kind of never found a place to fit in. That 49 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 3: developed and turned into abuse over the years. He scapegoaded 50 00:03:19,880 --> 00:03:22,280 Speaker 3: my mom and I, I believe, for a lot of 51 00:03:22,280 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: the feelings he was feeling. My dad was never really 52 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 3: in the picture. In fact, my mom likes to tell 53 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,520 Speaker 3: me I was the last time they had sex, so 54 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 3: like I was conceived that time, So I never actually 55 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:35,000 Speaker 3: lived with my father. I guess I was probably a 56 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 3: lot less affected by his absence because I had never 57 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 3: even known his presence. My brother was deeply affected by 58 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:44,600 Speaker 3: it because he left when he was three, So just 59 00:03:44,800 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 3: from then on he kind of was an angry ass person. 60 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: He really directed a lot of the anger towards myself 61 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 3: and my mom. He abused me in many different ways 62 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 3: over the years. The abuse started around when I was 63 00:03:57,200 --> 00:04:03,000 Speaker 3: probably ten or eleven. I say that like the abuse 64 00:04:03,080 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 3: was environmental where he would get really angry and punch 65 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 3: holes in the walls. He was really volatile, he was 66 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:15,960 Speaker 3: really moody. Then actually the abuse became sexual and he 67 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 3: sexually abused me as a child. That was when I 68 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 3: was around twelve, and it took me decades to figure 69 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 3: out what he had done because his abuse was so shrewd. 70 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 3: And I share, like I don't generally like to share that, 71 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 3: like the intimate details of it live because I write 72 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,520 Speaker 3: about it more than anything. Because again, as much as 73 00:04:36,560 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 3: I digest all this trauma for other not for content 74 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 3: and awareness and all that, I get to choose the 75 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 3: boundaries of that, So my boundary generally. But yeah, that 76 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:53,320 Speaker 3: was extremely devastating. It kind of manifested when that ended. 77 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 3: A year later, when I was around thirteen, he became 78 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,920 Speaker 3: extremely violent and angry, ended up dropping out of high school, 79 00:05:01,960 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 3: and ended up going in and out of the army 80 00:05:04,120 --> 00:05:08,520 Speaker 3: a couple times, the US Army, and just really could 81 00:05:08,600 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: never find a place in life. My mom led him 82 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,919 Speaker 3: in and out. An abusive relationship is really hard. We 83 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 3: know the toxicity, we know the cyclical nature of it. 84 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: Now there's a lot more language we have than when 85 00:05:22,000 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 3: we did in two thousand and seven, when at the 86 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:28,560 Speaker 3: height of our abuse. Eventually, unfortunately, the abuse got so 87 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 3: bad he threatened my mom's life several times and eventually 88 00:05:32,080 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 3: killed her on September twenty fifth, two thousand and seven. 89 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:41,920 Speaker 3: The exact date actually became America's National Murder Victims Remembrance Day, 90 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:46,479 Speaker 3: like her exact murder date, but that was coincidental. I 91 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 3: didn't find that out for many years. However, that that day, 92 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 3: after a heated argument, he stole her life. I came 93 00:05:54,080 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 3: home to find her, even though he had told me 94 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 3: he had killed her. On my drive home, i'd reached him, 95 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 3: he told me not to go home. I didn't really 96 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 3: believe him because of the nature of his abuse and 97 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:11,160 Speaker 3: his kind of cycle of behavior. It was so up 98 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:13,760 Speaker 3: and down. He would sometimes joke about stuff like that. 99 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:16,479 Speaker 3: I know that sounds really weird, and I've gotten a 100 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:19,840 Speaker 3: lot of slack on about that on the Internet because 101 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 3: people just don't understand how that's possible for me to 102 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:25,919 Speaker 3: underhear that and think he was joking. But when you 103 00:06:26,040 --> 00:06:30,719 Speaker 3: live in constant abuse or fear, sometimes those things are jokes. 104 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 3: And that's a mechanism of coercive control that I've now 105 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:38,400 Speaker 3: you know, identified with time. But so when I was 106 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:42,799 Speaker 3: twenty two my brother murdered my mother. It was shocking, 107 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 3: it was gutting. It threw me for a major damn loop. 108 00:06:47,960 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 3: I found many mechanisms of healing afterwards, some healthy, some not. 109 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 3: And now that I am thirty eight, I have a 110 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 3: grand perspective of our experiences. My degree going into that. 111 00:07:03,160 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 3: You know, my brother actually killed her two weeks before, 112 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,919 Speaker 3: two weeks after I graduated college, and my degree is 113 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 3: in psychology, so I actually went on in all of 114 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 3: that in my healing, went on to start my MFT. 115 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 3: I did drop out because I realized it just wasn't 116 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 3: exactly where I wanted to be. But I think I 117 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 3: utilize psychology, and obviously I utilize my own healing journey 118 00:07:27,520 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 3: and my work and my advocacy and my sharing in 119 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 3: my endeavors, and it's just, yeah, it's been a bit 120 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 3: of a mind fuck the journey that I've gone on 121 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 3: since then. 122 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 2: I can imagine, and all of that is just so terrible. 123 00:07:45,680 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 2: Obviously we've spoken about it before, but it's just every 124 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:52,520 Speaker 2: time you tell me, I literally just get like this 125 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 2: terrible feeling in my stomach that you had to live 126 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: through that because it's yeah, no words, really no words. 127 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 3: And I like to add too, is that the nature 128 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 3: of my podcast, not to plug it so earlier talk 129 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: about it, but the nature of my podcast it's called 130 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 3: what Came Next? Because quite literally, people think that victims, 131 00:08:12,000 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 3: endeavors or journeys or hardships kind of end with the 132 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 3: trauma and then we get to heal. But the idea 133 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 3: is that there's always something coming next. So we'd like 134 00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,680 Speaker 3: to think that, like, like you said, thank you for 135 00:08:22,720 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 3: acknowledging that, however, the trauma didn't even end there with him. Yeah, 136 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 3: you know, the nature of our and I think it's 137 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:31,679 Speaker 3: important to know that, like the nature of our criminal 138 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 3: justice system allows for I think I believe the correct 139 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,120 Speaker 3: term is litigation abuse. So my brother was caught that evening. 140 00:08:39,559 --> 00:08:42,520 Speaker 3: He was admittedly guilty, but it took four and a 141 00:08:42,559 --> 00:08:46,439 Speaker 3: half years to convict him. And the last ditch effort 142 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 3: he made before he actually got convicted or actually pled 143 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 3: no contest to second degree murder in two thousand and eleven, 144 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,599 Speaker 3: I believe, was he tried to hire a hitman to 145 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 3: kill me. He tried to pin the murder on me, 146 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 3: say I planned everything I like promised him a huge 147 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:08,880 Speaker 3: lump of money that I didn't have, Like I don't 148 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:10,840 Speaker 3: know where he was coming up with any of this shit, 149 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:13,840 Speaker 3: and basically told this inmate in jail that was getting 150 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:17,200 Speaker 3: out or you know, potentially being released, like, hey, my 151 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:19,360 Speaker 3: sister did all this shit? Can you can you try 152 00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:22,239 Speaker 3: to stalk her? He created like a stalking plan for him, 153 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 3: and then he said, like off the record, like hey, 154 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 3: if you don't do it, I mean, if she doesn't 155 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 3: do it, if she doesn't admit to what what I'm 156 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 3: saying she's should admit to, just wipe her out basically, 157 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 3: So that was like a continued abuse from within jail. 158 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,400 Speaker 3: He eventually pled guilty and then I only got nine 159 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 3: and a half years before his first parole hearing, And 160 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 3: those nine and a half years I kind of had 161 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 3: that like looming death threat over my head. I guess 162 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:51,800 Speaker 3: I had always thought that like maybe I'd given to 163 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 3: I give him a lot of power in those years. 164 00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,040 Speaker 3: I think that I shouldn't have that. I didn't have 165 00:09:56,080 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 3: the tools to not give like I was definitely so 166 00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:04,280 Speaker 3: bring with some severe PTSD lingering after all of that, 167 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 3: So I think I don't even think I started healing 168 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,840 Speaker 3: until twenty eleven, when I was about twenty six, which 169 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 3: is my mom's lucky number. So there we go. 170 00:10:14,480 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 2: Oh, that's sweet, that's very sweet. 171 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 3: Because I never really thought about that. 172 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 1: Look at that. 173 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,520 Speaker 2: Twenty six is a special number, honestly, and because you 174 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 2: were twenty two when it happened, So that's when you 175 00:10:25,880 --> 00:10:28,720 Speaker 2: said this before, but that's you were just still basically 176 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 2: a child, you know, technically an adult, but it's well 177 00:10:32,720 --> 00:10:34,320 Speaker 2: still in that formative decade. 178 00:10:34,520 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 3: Well, the ironic thing is is that my brother always 179 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 3: got the comfort of a youth offender status because he 180 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 3: killed my mom when he was twenty five years old 181 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 3: in nine months instead of twenty six. Twenty six in 182 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,960 Speaker 3: America is the number that we I guess the law 183 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 3: sees your brain firm, fully formed, and so I guess 184 00:10:52,320 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 3: now I'm putting all these pieces together. I didn't even 185 00:10:54,360 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 3: realize I was twenty six when he was technically sentenced. 186 00:10:57,960 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 3: And that's kind of interesting, all these like alignments. But yeah, 187 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:04,520 Speaker 3: there's a lot of different, little weird alignments that I've 188 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 3: gone through similar traumas at the same time that my 189 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 3: mom did, or just similar kind of like, yeah, anyway. 190 00:11:12,520 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 2: Grief and trauma never really does leave the body, as 191 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 2: we know. So it's just amazing to still see you 192 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 2: doing really well and your show is incredible. But I 193 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:27,320 Speaker 2: do want to ask you, know this, this is a 194 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 2: show about your twenties. Yeah, this is a major, I 195 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 2: would say, defining event and defining experience of your whole life, 196 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: but your twenties life, and it culminated. Yeah, So looking 197 00:11:38,160 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 2: back on that, what would you what would you tell 198 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: her now, this this young person who's just lived through 199 00:11:43,280 --> 00:11:46,839 Speaker 2: possibly the most life changing thing to ever happen to her. 200 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: Oh goodness, well that's a really big question. You're making 201 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,079 Speaker 3: me tear up. But I think a lot of abuse 202 00:11:55,160 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 3: survivors have will carry a lot of shame and guilt, 203 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 3: and as much as I don't anymore at all, I've 204 00:12:01,360 --> 00:12:03,240 Speaker 3: done a lot of hard work in a deep digging, 205 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 3: I think I would just tell her that I love 206 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 3: her and that none of it is their fault. I 207 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 3: never shared the about the sexual abuse of my mom, 208 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,800 Speaker 3: so I always thought when it happened, initially that when 209 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 3: I was twenty two and my mom was murdered, I 210 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:19,439 Speaker 3: initially immediately thought, God, if I had reported that my 211 00:12:19,559 --> 00:12:24,000 Speaker 3: mom would be alive today. Because she would have created 212 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 3: a harder boundary with my brother, knowing how bad the 213 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 3: abuse was towards me. I always she was my fiercest advocate, 214 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 3: so I thought, in not advocating for myself, I didn't 215 00:12:33,920 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 3: advocate for her too. I have had to. There's this 216 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: very like religious tenant that people have to forgive their abusers. 217 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:47,400 Speaker 3: I don't believe in that. That's some bullshit. I believe 218 00:12:47,480 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 3: in forgiving your younger self, in allowing quote unquote, although 219 00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 3: that is not really allowing you are being abused, but 220 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 3: that is the sentiment that usually that is a victim. 221 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 3: You know, we think, oh gosh, I've allowed this. I 222 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 3: have to allow healing and forgiveness to that young girl 223 00:13:06,920 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 3: who didn't have the tools and resources to establish the 224 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 3: boundaries that she needed. And that's what I give myself 225 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,720 Speaker 3: every day. I also something I say to that young lady. 226 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 3: I talk to her every day. Quite honestly, you know 227 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:24,320 Speaker 3: that sounds crazy, but I doesn't. Well. I believe in 228 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 3: being mindful, and I believe in having healthy schemas in 229 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 3: your head. The way you talk to yourself is of 230 00:13:30,600 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 3: utmost importance, and the way I talk to myself at 231 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,880 Speaker 3: that time was not healthy. A lot of young women 232 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 3: in the world, and a lot of young people in general, 233 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,480 Speaker 3: not just women, do not speak health. 234 00:13:41,679 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 1: You know. 235 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 3: I don't think our society in general breeds too much 236 00:13:44,760 --> 00:13:49,240 Speaker 3: mental health innately. And so I constantly talk to her 237 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 3: by healing how I speak about myself, and in that, 238 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 3: I'm speaking to her too. And I'm just like, I 239 00:13:55,800 --> 00:14:00,280 Speaker 3: tell myself a badass all the time. I say, I 240 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,840 Speaker 3: forgive you, I love you. You are safe. Now, look 241 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:05,440 Speaker 3: at you, Look how far you've come. 242 00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,439 Speaker 2: I love the tenets of Healing your Inner Child, and 243 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,319 Speaker 2: I did an entire episode on it. It's my favorite 244 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:16,520 Speaker 2: episode because I think there is this misconception that it's 245 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:20,000 Speaker 2: really wishy washy, that it's a pseudoscience. But positive self 246 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 2: talk and healing your Inner Child is so based in 247 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 2: so much psychological theory. It goes back for decades, and 248 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:36,320 Speaker 2: I just think it's a beautiful practice to visualize your 249 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 2: younger self and care for them because they're still within you. 250 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 2: That version of you has not disappeared. You're not replaced 251 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 2: each a year that you age. So I really really 252 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 2: like that you brought that up. I have to ask something, though, 253 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: do you think that a part of part of your 254 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:57,720 Speaker 2: struggle was also survivor's guilt, or the fact that you 255 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:00,640 Speaker 2: felt that you could have saved your. 256 00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 3: No, I never really thought about that, to be honest, 257 00:15:03,000 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 3: I know that sounds a little callous or selfish, perhaps, 258 00:15:05,480 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 3: but I knew the mechanism of abuse was all my 259 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 3: brother's hands. I had seen his volatility in his violence 260 00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 3: for so long. I knew that was all his right. 261 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 3: Like I didn't really, I didn't think. I never actually thought, 262 00:15:19,640 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 3: because I always thought if I had been there that 263 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 3: night and he had lost it, I'd be dead too, 264 00:15:23,640 --> 00:15:26,200 Speaker 3: to be honest, So I get to carry on, and 265 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: I don't have survivors guilt. I have survivor's responsibility, perhaps 266 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 3: in making her death not in vain, in making my 267 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 3: efforts heard, and trying to change whenever I can, by 268 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:40,800 Speaker 3: using our story as an example. My mom was a teacher. 269 00:15:41,080 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 3: I used to be a teacher before I turned into 270 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,240 Speaker 3: tell and actually, well, I had my own kids. But 271 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: I also was like in my having my children, I 272 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 3: knew I had a lot to heal in my ear. 273 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 3: I had kids in my twenties as well. I was 274 00:15:52,640 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 3: twenty eight when I had children, so that is super 275 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 3: formative too. I never thought I would have children in 276 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 3: my twenties. I had so many conversations with my mom 277 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 3: growing up, saying I want not have kids until I'm 278 00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 3: at least thirty. And then I went through this massive trauma, 279 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,200 Speaker 3: and all I wanted to do was recreate a healthy 280 00:16:10,280 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: family system, or not even recreate, because I don't think 281 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 3: we ever had that with him. Maybe when we were 282 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 3: very young, but my brother was just always, always beyond 283 00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 3: reach for her and abused her. It was a really 284 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 3: toxic relationship. So I think my twenties and being free 285 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 3: from the murder I mean from my brother unfortunately, at 286 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,560 Speaker 3: the loss of my mom, really it knocked me for 287 00:16:37,600 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: a loop. It was fucking traumatic, beyond belief. What I 288 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 3: saw I wouldn't wish on any of my worst enemies, 289 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 3: but it changed my life. Ultimately, I've got freed from 290 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 3: my lifetime abuser. I finally got So Yeah. 291 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: It's big cost. There's very layered, it's very layered, very nuanced. 292 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:02,440 Speaker 2: I just imagine, I just can't imagine what it would 293 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: be like to be in your head stepping through all 294 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,840 Speaker 2: those different scenarios and all those different outcomes and consequences. 295 00:17:08,640 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 3: And I will say sixteen years later. Obviously, the way 296 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 3: I talk about it and navigate it is a bit 297 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,199 Speaker 3: different than I was then. I couldn't talk about it 298 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:19,680 Speaker 3: and navigate it. I was surviving, so I was Yeah, 299 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,399 Speaker 3: So it's just definitely interesting. The perspective I've gained. 300 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:26,879 Speaker 2: It's very intricate, And I wonder you've already mentioned this 301 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:30,199 Speaker 2: about how it changed your life. Really and now you 302 00:17:30,280 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 2: do so much work around victim and survive, the advocacy, 303 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 2: and you have this entire show that is dedicated to 304 00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 2: extending the story or sharing I guess more of the 305 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 2: side of the story that isn't always made available. But 306 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 2: how do you think it's kind of changed your perspective 307 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 2: and your mindset on life? Do you think that it 308 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: obviously has had an impact, but in what way? 309 00:17:56,760 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 3: You hit me so deeply with that question. When I 310 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,040 Speaker 3: saw it, quite honestly, it changed my life forever. Like 311 00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:07,400 Speaker 3: we talk about the brain development, right, our brains are 312 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 3: not entirely developed at twenty two, So I saw the 313 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: most traumatic thing I could ever see in my life 314 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 3: at twenty two. I experienced extreme abuse in the couple 315 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 3: years before, right when I was around twenty, like, it 316 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 3: became very extreme, So that abuse. That event changed the 317 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:29,760 Speaker 3: way I literally react to everything. I mean, I watch 318 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:33,399 Speaker 3: movies differently. This was a continuing argument in my marriage 319 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 3: while I was still married. Was my ex husband never 320 00:18:36,080 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 3: really kind of understood where I was coming from. When 321 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,199 Speaker 3: I would watch a bloody movie, I would cover my 322 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 3: eyes or I would have him turn it off or something, 323 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,080 Speaker 3: and he'd be like, come on, it's just fake. And 324 00:18:44,160 --> 00:18:46,600 Speaker 3: I always would say, if once you see it for real, 325 00:18:46,760 --> 00:18:48,479 Speaker 3: you don't want to see it for fake. Yeah, And 326 00:18:48,520 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 3: he never kind of I know, I understand the instance 327 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:53,160 Speaker 3: of it. There's a lot of time back over there too. 328 00:18:53,359 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 3: I was like, I met him when I was I 329 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,280 Speaker 3: met him like two months after my mom was murdered, 330 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 3: so and here came and a gentleman quote unquote that 331 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,600 Speaker 3: was like very much love bombing me. I now know 332 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 3: a lot of mechanisms of coercive control and emotional abuse 333 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 3: to a certain degree from a lot of my relationships. 334 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 3: I will say that. But it changed the way I 335 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,760 Speaker 3: just literally see things, my perspective on everything violence in 336 00:19:19,840 --> 00:19:23,400 Speaker 3: the media. Like I was saying true crime content, I'm 337 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,320 Speaker 3: my mom and I growing up I always loved true crime. 338 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:29,240 Speaker 3: Not that I hate that statement because you can't love 339 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 3: true crime like you can love the content in true crime. 340 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:36,000 Speaker 3: I don't love crime basically, Yes, was fascinated. 341 00:19:35,440 --> 00:19:38,120 Speaker 2: By the stories. Maybe that's why I was. 342 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 3: My mom and I both were right that all of 343 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,439 Speaker 3: her books in her shelves were true crime books. So 344 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:45,639 Speaker 3: now on the other side of things, and once I 345 00:19:45,720 --> 00:19:49,000 Speaker 3: was healed to a large degree, I could consume those stories, 346 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 3: and really it made me see everything differently, even the 347 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:55,240 Speaker 3: true crime space that I had always really been interested in. 348 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 3: I navigate my relationships differently. I'm triggered by different things 349 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 3: than other people are. I had PTSD for a long time, 350 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 3: so even just when I go to concerts, it's very unnerving. 351 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:11,159 Speaker 3: I'm thinking about shootings all the time, Like the America's 352 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:15,200 Speaker 3: state right now, the amount of shootings and gun violence. 353 00:20:15,520 --> 00:20:18,879 Speaker 3: It's I literally just navigate world differently. I know, like 354 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:21,480 Speaker 3: I'll literally drop my kids off at school, wave to 355 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 3: them through the gate, and the mom that I'm standing 356 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:24,959 Speaker 3: next to their i'm friends with, I'll be like, I 357 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 3: just hope there isn't a shooting today, and she looks 358 00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 3: at me like, what the fluck, And I'm like, I 359 00:20:30,000 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 3: know that they are in the same America as I am, 360 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,480 Speaker 3: but I have known a violence like that. It was 361 00:20:35,520 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 3: in my home, so for me to see it replayed 362 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:40,760 Speaker 3: all the time everywhere, it is highly triggering for me 363 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 3: to even just to persist in my country. So it's 364 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,479 Speaker 3: just a very layered state to be in. And it's 365 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 3: a forever state. You said, grief is to a certain 366 00:20:50,680 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: degree forever. Trauma can be too. Major trauma, especially I 367 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,920 Speaker 3: think before a certain point in your life is forever 368 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,440 Speaker 3: to a certain degree. That is not too a establish 369 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 3: a quote unquote, which is my favorite least favorite statement 370 00:21:03,840 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 3: in the world. And when you google victim, I mean, 371 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 3: when you go to Instagram and you type in victim, 372 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 3: the first thing that pops up is victim mentality. I 373 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:14,160 Speaker 3: hate that, but I'm not perpetuating like I think that's 374 00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:19,960 Speaker 3: thet scummiest term on the planet because victim victimhood, when 375 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 3: you're talking about extreme trauma or persistent trauma over the years, 376 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,320 Speaker 3: that is kind of forever and it is a not 377 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:32,120 Speaker 3: a mentality, but a state, to be honest, when you're 378 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:35,560 Speaker 3: that triggered. PTSD can be forever to a certain degree. 379 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 3: I see PTSD, I mean that's generally what it's called so. 380 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 2: Complex post traumatic stress disorder, and I think often people 381 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:47,639 Speaker 2: associate that with like, oh, you have to have gone 382 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:52,359 Speaker 2: to war or experienced like like yeah. I think we 383 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 2: often think about it in terms of veterans, but there 384 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:58,879 Speaker 2: is so much everyday trauma that happens in the world 385 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,639 Speaker 2: that is going to impact all of us in a 386 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:03,639 Speaker 2: different way. I do want to go back though, to 387 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: this idea that we mentioned at the very beginning, which 388 00:22:06,800 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 2: is adversity and hardship and how we overcome that. Now. 389 00:22:10,960 --> 00:22:14,800 Speaker 2: I think everyone in some capacity sits on this spectrum. 390 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 2: Everyone experiences something. No one goes through life unharmed or 391 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 2: escaping kind of some level of adversity. 392 00:22:24,720 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 3: And what might be traumatic might what might not be 393 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,639 Speaker 3: traumatic to you might be super traumatic to me. So 394 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 3: that is another level of that too. Sorry, go on, no, 395 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 3: I just I agree with that. 396 00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:36,639 Speaker 2: I always say that trauma is subjective. That's like a 397 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:40,080 Speaker 2: massive thing that we stay on this show. But how 398 00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 2: would you approach hardship? You know, a massive part of 399 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 2: my audiences people under the age of thirty, who are 400 00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 2: probably experiencing some of them are be experiencing the things 401 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: that are going to old to their life right now. 402 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:54,280 Speaker 2: Looking for answers being like, how do I get through this? 403 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 1: So? 404 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,200 Speaker 2: How do you approach how did you approach this experience 405 00:22:59,240 --> 00:22:59,920 Speaker 2: in this journey? 406 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 3: Wow? So I actually wrote in my book and this 407 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 3: is a silly but it's a silly anecdote, but it's 408 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 3: from my childhood and it kind of summarizes how I 409 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 3: take on anything because it's what my mom left me with, 410 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 3: Like I honestly think the main I had many adults 411 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:20,600 Speaker 3: in my life that invested in me and made sure 412 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,000 Speaker 3: I was successful along the way, but my mom was 413 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 3: the main. Absolutely. She left me with so many lessons, 414 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 3: but I think one of the biggest ones was and 415 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,400 Speaker 3: it's something I repeated over and over and over again 416 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:33,440 Speaker 3: throughout my life, and it's how I get through everything. 417 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 3: Is that I remember. I think I always wanted to be. 418 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 3: I know I'm a leader, but nobody in my youth 419 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 3: saw that, Like none of my peers saw that. So 420 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 3: every year I would always run for office in school 421 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,600 Speaker 3: and I would always lose, even into high school, even 422 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 3: into college, believe it or not, Like every single year 423 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 3: I ran and still run that I lost. And every time, 424 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,720 Speaker 3: you know I did, every time I lost my mom 425 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:02,240 Speaker 3: and I maybe took off a year here or there 426 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 3: or whatever. But like my mom would say, Okay, so 427 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 3: if you lost this time, what are you going to 428 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 3: run for next year? And that was literally how my 429 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:12,520 Speaker 3: mom trained my brain. So when I she was gone 430 00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:18,679 Speaker 3: at twenty two, I was literally left with okay, so 431 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,159 Speaker 3: what are you gonna do next? It wasn't like she 432 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:25,960 Speaker 3: she just trained me that you always keep going. That 433 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 3: tenacity was like the main theme in my entire life 434 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,400 Speaker 3: that she always left me with and without her reminders 435 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,359 Speaker 3: and without her you know, firing up my But like 436 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 3: that was left on me when I hit twenty two 437 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,159 Speaker 3: and I was left without her, And that's what just 438 00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,399 Speaker 3: what I did. I kind of perseverance and tenacity I 439 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 3: think has a lot to do with self talk. I 440 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 3: think it. And even when it was sometimes negative, when 441 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 3: I felt ineffective at times, or or I lacked the 442 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,320 Speaker 3: confidence to do something I really wanted to do, I 443 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:02,240 Speaker 3: still had that voice saying, but you're gonna try because 444 00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 3: you've already dealt with the I already dealt with the 445 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 3: worst thing I could possibly have happened, anything else, like 446 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 3: rejection letters for writing fair nothing. I just saw my 447 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,880 Speaker 3: mom murdered. Like they're like, you know that is literally 448 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,720 Speaker 3: how I got through. I know that sounds a little 449 00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 3: twisted and dark, but I literally got through by saying 450 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 3: that was the worst that could have ever happened. The 451 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 3: rest has to be better. And it's not that I 452 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: feel that the world owes me anything. I know trauma 453 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,680 Speaker 3: will still happen to me in the future, and it 454 00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:35,399 Speaker 3: has in my life since, but it's put things into perspective. 455 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 3: I think sometimes we think how people will ask me, 456 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 3: how did you survive? And my only question is the 457 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 3: only alternative is not, and you just get up, You 458 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 3: put one foot in front of the other. I'm finally 459 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 3: in a place right now where I can be really mindful. 460 00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 3: I think I just gave myself grace in all of 461 00:25:55,240 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 3: those years, and I maybe wasn't as my I had PTSD. 462 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 3: Like I said, that makes you no mindful. You can't 463 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 3: live in the moment. You live in your anxiety and 464 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:06,159 Speaker 3: your fear and your panic and your all of that. 465 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 3: But the way I got through is just literally knowing 466 00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:13,200 Speaker 3: that there is better. The world had shown me better. 467 00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 3: My mom she showed me better, teachers had showed me better. 468 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 3: I'd shown myself better and all of that too, No 469 00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:22,200 Speaker 3: matter what was going on at home that like all 470 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:27,919 Speaker 3: of my hard work paid off, and I like, I 471 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: think the other thing my mom always left me with 472 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: was like, the only way to fail is not try. 473 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:33,919 Speaker 3: So the only way to fail at life or to 474 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 3: just is just to give up. And I couldn't give up, 475 00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 3: Like I Yeah, that's I know. It's like Also, obviously 476 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 3: therapy really helped. Yeah, And I have to be honest, 477 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 3: though not all therapy helped. Not all therapists are helpful. 478 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 3: I think it's the right therapist. I definitely think that 479 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: there's this fallacy that any therapy helps. I've really been 480 00:26:56,359 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 3: to some harmful therapists from anything really like benet a 481 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:04,440 Speaker 3: benevolent harmful where like the second meeting, like obviously, therapists 482 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,919 Speaker 3: often ask you what brings you here. Obviously, one of 483 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 3: the first things I say is my mom's murder. And 484 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 3: the second interview with this one woman, she said, okay, 485 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 3: so how's your relationship with your mom? Do you talk 486 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,080 Speaker 3: to her daily or weekly? And I was like, wait, 487 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 3: hold on. That was harmful to me because she couldn't 488 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 3: even remember who I was at a certain degree. Other 489 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 3: there have been other ones that have been harmful in 490 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 3: other ways, but the point is, is that a healthy 491 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 3: therapist that gives you tools and doesn't make you think 492 00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 3: that you have to live by going to them every 493 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,439 Speaker 3: week for the rest of your life. Oh yeah, is 494 00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,359 Speaker 3: a great space. I think that knowing therapy is a 495 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 3: space for reflection and resources to get through something. But 496 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 3: it's not an end all be all. I don't think 497 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 3: anything can be an end all be all. I exercise 498 00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 3: has always been a really great resource for me in 499 00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 3: getting through anything. In my twenties, I honestly coped a 500 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 3: little unhealthy, like I dealt with not a diagnosed eating disorder, 501 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 3: but I definitely had disordered eating at times. That was 502 00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 3: something I controlled when I couldn't control other things, which 503 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:07,720 Speaker 3: is a big. 504 00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:10,879 Speaker 2: A big thing. A big think to disordered eating is 505 00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:12,119 Speaker 2: when you've gone through trauma. 506 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 3: So absolutely, and I saw that as more of a symptom. 507 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 3: I was also plagued with really bad stomach aches around 508 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 3: that time too, because of all my anxiety. There was 509 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 3: no diagnosis. I couldn't I wasn't gluten intolerant, I wasn't this, 510 00:28:25,040 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 3: I wasn't that. So I do believe I eventually, like 511 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 3: you know, I just I got I got a divorce. 512 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 3: I escaped some toxic situations. I put in the time 513 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 3: and the work in healing and I thrived. So just 514 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,520 Speaker 3: like investing in myself, I think self care has been 515 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 3: one of the most And self care can be legal care, 516 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 3: it can be therapeutic care, like in a you know, 517 00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 3: a regimented therapy therapy. It could be like you know, 518 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 3: one on one talk therapy. It could be writing my book, 519 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 3: and any of those things. I you know, I started 520 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,400 Speaker 3: my book really young to in my twenties. It took 521 00:29:05,480 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 3: me a long time to finish, but like all of 522 00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 3: these things were practices I needed. 523 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: Oh. 524 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:13,080 Speaker 3: I started writing and doing live pieces to share my 525 00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 3: grief with people that were also grieving or people that 526 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 3: were mothers, and all of that really showed me I 527 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 3: wasn't alone and that has been a big saving grace 528 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 3: as well. Is community building a community around not like 529 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:33,840 Speaker 3: off of the trauma, but building a community around or 530 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,120 Speaker 3: surrounding the trauma to kind of encapsulate it and to 531 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 3: put finite borders around it and to heal together. 532 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 2: Which I think is remarkable. Community is such a healing force. 533 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 2: And you know, you lost your mother on that day, 534 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 2: but also you you know, your brother sounds like an 535 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,800 Speaker 2: awful person is an awful person, but you also lost 536 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 2: him in the sense that like suddenly there was no family. 537 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,160 Speaker 3: I had no family. 538 00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, whole family, Yeah gone. And I think that building 539 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 2: community is something I say to like everyone, it feeling 540 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 2: less alarned just makes everything seem more manageable. 541 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:16,600 Speaker 3: And I should have said that from the beginning. You said, 542 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 3: how did you get through? I honestly, in my book, 543 00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 3: I explained how I got through those four years just 544 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 3: to convict him, and in it, the recurring theme I 545 00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 3: would say is the people my mom left me with, 546 00:30:27,240 --> 00:30:30,760 Speaker 3: the community that I built through my work, through her, 547 00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 3: through everything, through school, through my sorority, everything that all 548 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 3: was literally what carried me when I couldn't carry myself. 549 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,320 Speaker 3: Those people were there. And then, you know, once I 550 00:30:42,360 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 3: started sharing my story more publicly, the people that reach 551 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 3: out to me and say I'm a victim of sibling 552 00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:49,680 Speaker 3: abuse as well. You know, in my research, I found 553 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: out like fifty percent of American kids are affected by 554 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 3: sibling abuse in some manner. And I'm sure you talk 555 00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 3: about abuse in the in the definition of it at times, 556 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 3: but the abuse, you know, abuse can be anything where 557 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 3: they're using a position of power or you know, to 558 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 3: manipulate a behavior, so that is you know, emotional, physical, 559 00:31:09,680 --> 00:31:12,760 Speaker 3: you know. And I get messages all the time from 560 00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 3: people saying I was abused by my brother, or women 561 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 3: who say thank you for showing me what my son 562 00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 3: could potentially do, and just the allowance to know that 563 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 3: we're not alone is huge. I write back to everybody 564 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:27,959 Speaker 3: that writes to me, and even like, well, I'll get 565 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 3: to the bed, Like even when my book came out, 566 00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,440 Speaker 3: my uncle hit me up. My dad is my dad's brother, 567 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 3: and he said, thank you for naming something that I 568 00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,400 Speaker 3: went through at the hands of your dad, like he 569 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 3: and I had known that he had never shared that 570 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 3: with me, but my mom had told me similar like 571 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 3: stories about it, and so I help like this was 572 00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,960 Speaker 3: in within my home. But in the messages I write 573 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 3: back to people that send me like, you know, thank you, 574 00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,000 Speaker 3: I went through this. I'm so glad to know I'm 575 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 3: not alone. I know, and I write a variation of 576 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 3: this to everybody, but bab like, my heart breaks for 577 00:32:02,080 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 3: people who go through something similar, but it gives each 578 00:32:05,240 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 3: of us a little bit of solace and knowing that 579 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 3: we aren't alone and that it's literally in the sharing 580 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 3: is the lifting. When you share a load with someone, 581 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 3: they're literally helping you lift it up. So that is 582 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 3: what community did for me too, is that when I shared, 583 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 3: when I was roused, I had someone to go to. 584 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 3: I utilized friends, therapists, family. I'm so blessed to have family. 585 00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 3: I mean, oh my god, that's massive. Yeah, so many good, 586 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 3: many good thing. Yes, I'm very blessed, which sounds very 587 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:39,760 Speaker 3: weird to say that, but iView about my mom's murder. 588 00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 3: But yeah, well it just feels so dichotomous. But I 589 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:46,200 Speaker 3: two truths could be true exactly. 590 00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,000 Speaker 2: I totally agree with that. I want to ask you 591 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 2: one final question before we wrap up, and I think 592 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 2: the big thing that I take away from talking to 593 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 2: you is that people who experience these things should be 594 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,000 Speaker 2: in child to their stories. It's not for other people 595 00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:07,360 Speaker 2: to interpret. It's not for other people to use as entertainment. 596 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:11,800 Speaker 2: You know, obviously there is a core element of education. 597 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 2: But if we as the audience, and I'm going to 598 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:18,040 Speaker 2: include myself in that as well, because listening to you 599 00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 2: speak is just incredible, But if we as the audience 600 00:33:21,120 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: could take away one thing from your story, what would 601 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 2: you like it to be? 602 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 3: Well, First of all, thank you for interpreting what you 603 00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 3: did thus far. That was a great takeaway you said. 604 00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,840 Speaker 3: You took away that each person should be in charge 605 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 3: of their own narrative and have the power to tell it. 606 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:44,920 Speaker 3: That's I absolutely agree. What I was thinking is actually, 607 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,760 Speaker 3: like I mentioned at the beginning of this, you asked 608 00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 3: how April seventeenth went, which was actually my brother's final sentencing, 609 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 3: which just happened out of nowhere, and at the end 610 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 3: of my victim impact statement, which I almost didn't get 611 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 3: to make because he pled guilty and then said, if 612 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 3: she makes the statement, I'm going to retract all my guilties. 613 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,040 Speaker 3: Like he literally fuck tried to fuck with me with that. Yeah, 614 00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:10,600 Speaker 3: and the judge kind of putting him in his place 615 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 3: a little bit, but then he made he talked through 616 00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,520 Speaker 3: my whole victim of back statement. But whatever, I like, 617 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 3: I was a badass. I just kept pausing every time 618 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 3: he talked, and even though the judge wanted me to 619 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:22,880 Speaker 3: keep going, I did not. But at the end of it, 620 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 3: I said, and that's what the takeaway will be A 621 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:31,680 Speaker 3: long story short, I'm sorry, I'm a talker. The thing 622 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,920 Speaker 3: that I want everybody to take away from my story, 623 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 3: from mom's story, from the trauma that we faced, from 624 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 3: everything that's ensued after is that, and especially from my 625 00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:48,840 Speaker 3: brother's actions. It's that one person's actions can deeply affect 626 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,120 Speaker 3: someone else's trajectory. We see that all the time, right, 627 00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 3: like in a million different ways. But I actually saw 628 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 3: that recently at that hearing on April seventeen, which I 629 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:03,960 Speaker 3: actually like, give a full rundown. I'm going to release 630 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 3: an episode in a little while about like the update 631 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 3: but and how that changed my life for. 632 00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 2: The know, this was your So your brother's final hearing 633 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 2: date was on April seventeenth, so it was. 634 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:18,240 Speaker 3: A sentencing for a new crime. They also went backwards 635 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,920 Speaker 3: and gave me some more justice for other for my 636 00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 3: mom's murder as well as another crime, the death threat 637 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 3: he was threatening me. So at that sentencing, my last 638 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 3: sayment was again I said, like my brother's actions proof 639 00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 3: one person's choices can mentally affect someone else's trajectory. But 640 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 3: the DA proved me that that to me too that day. 641 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 3: He believed in me. He took made a little bit 642 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:45,839 Speaker 3: of more effort. He did, he went a little bit 643 00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 3: of above and beyond his job, and he changed my 644 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 3: life forever. And I think that just knowing that your 645 00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 3: actions carry much weight, even you listening, everybody. I didn't 646 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:02,359 Speaker 3: mean to say even you, especially you listening, because you're 647 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:05,920 Speaker 3: listening and leaving yourself open to change and evolving. But 648 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:09,680 Speaker 3: everybody's actions carry immense weight, and we all have the 649 00:36:09,719 --> 00:36:12,600 Speaker 3: great ability to change things. And I really do challenge 650 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:15,280 Speaker 3: everyone to step outside a little bit of their comfort 651 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:20,440 Speaker 3: zone and do more for others and try to just 652 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,759 Speaker 3: you know, go that extra little mile. It might make 653 00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:27,799 Speaker 3: a huge fucking difference for people. I love that mentality, 654 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,120 Speaker 3: and I just think that even with mental health and everything, 655 00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 3: you know, people that might be struggling, being there for friends, whatever, 656 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 3: it is, just doing a little bit more giving that 657 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:39,640 Speaker 3: compliment when you see somebody walk by, you don't know 658 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:42,000 Speaker 3: what their day's been like, whatever it is. I do 659 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,680 Speaker 3: believe in the power if individual I mean I believe 660 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 3: in individual power. I believe in you the listener. 661 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:52,560 Speaker 2: Amy. I love that you have ended the show on 662 00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,040 Speaker 2: that note, because I do just think it's like the 663 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 2: most beautiful trajectory of this story right from the start 664 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,239 Speaker 2: of this episode, hearing what you went through and not 665 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 2: just what happened on that day that your mother passed away, 666 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:09,560 Speaker 2: but everything from childhood to now and the fact that 667 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 2: you're saying to us, just do that little bit extra 668 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 2: for people, because people are good and think about others. 669 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 2: It's just so beautiful. It's just so beautiful. And I 670 00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 2: just think the theme of this, the topic that we 671 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 2: you know, this all links to, is like overcoming adversity 672 00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 2: and hardship and your story through that, and it's just really, 673 00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 2: I don't know, really inspiring to me to hear that 674 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,799 Speaker 2: you can still have that mind frame and mindset and 675 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:43,600 Speaker 2: that you've done so much good stuff for the world. 676 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 2: Like I can't wait to watch that vice. 677 00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 3: Is it a documentary or yeah, you know, there's just 678 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 3: a tiny blip. I don't even know if I'll be 679 00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,400 Speaker 3: in it, although they did ask for like how to 680 00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 3: spell my name, so I think they. But my friends 681 00:37:56,560 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 3: who are actually releasing a podcast tomorrow, they're kind of coinciding. 682 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:03,080 Speaker 3: They are kind of the main focuses of the of 683 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:05,279 Speaker 3: the documentary, but it kind of goes through and like 684 00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:07,760 Speaker 3: they just actually they interview a whole bunch of really 685 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,520 Speaker 3: famous I hate to say that victims from and just 686 00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:14,879 Speaker 3: kind of get their take on how the whole genre. Go, Yeah, 687 00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 3: I guess it's today for you, though. 688 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to go and watch it after this. Actually, 689 00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,080 Speaker 2: I'm going to sit down and watch it and probably 690 00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,120 Speaker 2: send it to some of my friends because I think 691 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: that is it's just it's interesting. I think sometimes we 692 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 2: need to be a little bit more conscious about how 693 00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,399 Speaker 2: we consume our media. And I think often the time 694 00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,200 Speaker 2: we think like, I don't I want to spend less 695 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 2: time on my phone or YadA, YadA YadA, But it's 696 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 2: actually like sometimes a bit more ethical than that. So 697 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:42,960 Speaker 2: I think this is it's just an interesting, a really interesting, 698 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 2: fascinating perspective that I'm glad you were able to share. 699 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:49,759 Speaker 2: And I want to thank you very sincerely for coming on. 700 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 3: Thank you to be honest, thank you so much for 701 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:55,799 Speaker 3: opening your platform to my story, to leaving your heart 702 00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:59,600 Speaker 3: open and listening. Thank you just for the thoughtful questions 703 00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,759 Speaker 3: and for the care through this whole process. That's a 704 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 3: whole nother facet. I know this is not a true 705 00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,720 Speaker 3: crime podcast, but you know we talked a lot about ethics, 706 00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,439 Speaker 3: So thank you for contributing. Whether you are a true 707 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 3: crime content or not, you are an ethical show that 708 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 3: Kate creates a safe space for victims like me, and 709 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 3: I just appreciate you doing that and contributing such a 710 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 3: thoughtful show to the conversation and such awareness. 711 00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:27,839 Speaker 2: So that is you the big the biggest compliment I've 712 00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,920 Speaker 2: ever received. I'm never going to forget that. That's oh 713 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 2: my god, when having such an emotional time over here. 714 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,720 Speaker 2: And where can people find you? I think that everyone 715 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 2: needs to listen to your show? Can you can you 716 00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:42,480 Speaker 2: plug yourself a little bit? Please? 717 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 3: Yes? Thank you? So personally you can find me on 718 00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:51,560 Speaker 3: all platforms at Amy M y b As and Boy 719 00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,319 Speaker 3: and Chessler that's my last name, c H E. S 720 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:57,520 Speaker 3: l E R. And then my podcast which recently came out, 721 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 3: and again I kind of go through history and I'm 722 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 3: I'm interviewing victims of relatively notorious crimes or just crimes 723 00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:12,360 Speaker 3: that happened consistently and talking about how navigating their after story, 724 00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 3: basically navigating the after the trauma, how it affects them 725 00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:19,120 Speaker 3: to share their story in the media, how you know, 726 00:40:19,120 --> 00:40:22,520 Speaker 3: how just like navigating the legal system, how that's affected 727 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 3: their trajectory. And that show is called What Came Next. 728 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 3: You can find What Came Next on your preferred podcasting platform. 729 00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:32,000 Speaker 3: I know I mentioned my book before. The title is 730 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 3: Working for Justice. One Family's Tale of murder, betrayal and Healing, 731 00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 3: and that honestly, that was fourteen years in the making 732 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,520 Speaker 3: and I can't go through an interview without mentioning it 733 00:40:41,560 --> 00:40:44,680 Speaker 3: because I think it was. It's a beautiful tribute to 734 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:49,279 Speaker 3: my mom. I actually include some diary entries of my 735 00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 3: mom's in throughout the book, so I just think like 736 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,240 Speaker 3: it's important again, like you said, to give victims voices, 737 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:56,839 Speaker 3: and I think I did that even in my mom 738 00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:57,800 Speaker 3: in the books. 739 00:40:58,280 --> 00:41:01,160 Speaker 2: Thank you again, Amy for coming on sharing your story. 740 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,000 Speaker 2: As always, if you think there is a friend, a 741 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,560 Speaker 2: family member, a colleague who would benefit from Amy's perspective 742 00:41:08,040 --> 00:41:10,920 Speaker 2: and what she had to say today, feel free to 743 00:41:11,239 --> 00:41:14,160 Speaker 2: share this episode with them. She was so generous and 744 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,440 Speaker 2: brave in coming on and I very much appreciate it. 745 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 2: If you enjoyed this episode, please feel free to give 746 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:24,200 Speaker 2: it a five star review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify wherever 747 00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 2: you are listening right now, and if you want to 748 00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:30,600 Speaker 2: provide some feedback, if you have an episode suggestion, you 749 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 2: just want to reach out and say hi, follow us 750 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,200 Speaker 2: on Instagram at that Psychology Podcast and we will be 751 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:43,839 Speaker 2: back next week with another episode.