1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I and 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Matt's and today we're discussing how to Think Like a 3 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: Breadwinner with Jennifer Barrett. Yeah, we are excited for our 4 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: conversation today with Jennifer Barrett's. Jennifer is a long time 5 00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 1: financial journalist and she has written for publications like The 6 00:00:33,320 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Money, as well as 7 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:41,720 Speaker 1: a newsweek. She is. She's prolific, She's seemingly everywhere. She's 8 00:00:41,720 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: developed and hosted a popular personal finance video course on 9 00:00:44,840 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: You to Me. She's given a ted X talk on 10 00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:49,479 Speaker 1: the importance of wealth building, and she's also you know, 11 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:53,159 Speaker 1: appeared on many TV shows as well. And as impressive 12 00:00:53,200 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 1: as all that is, she also has a new book 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: that just came out that's titled Think Like a Breadwinner, 14 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: which is all about empowering women who want to earn 15 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: more money. So this is going to be a helpful 16 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: episode for everybody, but especially for the working woman. So Jennifer, 17 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: thank you for joining us on the podcast today. Thanks 18 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:12,520 Speaker 1: so much for having me. I'm excited to be here. 19 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: I really love your podcast. Thanks Jennifer, and you know 20 00:01:15,400 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: we're glad to have you here. With us and Matt. 21 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: We're talking with Jennifer before we begin the show, and 22 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: Jennifer mentioned that she loved craft beer. So yeah, we're 23 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: drinking a banana cream pie style bereau of the show 24 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:29,200 Speaker 1: right now while we while we have this combo. But 25 00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:31,800 Speaker 1: Matt and I we always drink a craft beer on 26 00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: our episodes because it's something that we love, is something 27 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: that we suplore John, while we're also being intentional and 28 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: trying to save well for the future. So yeah, we 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:42,240 Speaker 1: want to know from you, what's your craft beer equivalent? Oh, 30 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: it is craft beer one for one, the exact same thing. Yes, 31 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:51,360 Speaker 1: I was just thinking that we could spend an entire 32 00:01:51,440 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: episode just geeking out on beers. Um I I am 33 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,120 Speaker 1: a total beer geek. In fact, I am looking. I'm 34 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: not drinking just yet today, but um I just splur 35 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: just on a four pack of mckeller Limited series. Yes, 36 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: very good, um Bred your beer, Yeah, I love them. 37 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:10,919 Speaker 1: But we're also very close to Other Half Frewery, which, 38 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, so dangerous. That's right, because you are 39 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: in Brooklyn, aren't you. We are literally walking distance from 40 00:02:17,320 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 1: Other Half and they have some amazing beers. I probably 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:22,240 Speaker 1: don't need to tell you. In fact, I was just 42 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: thinking they have one called Banana Pandan, which you might 43 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: like as part of their Pastry Town series. Anyway, it's 44 00:02:28,440 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: very easy to drop you on a four pack. It 45 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,959 Speaker 1: is way too easy just on four beers, and they're strong, 46 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: so you have to sip them. So I think it 47 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 1: sort of works out, you know, like price per sip 48 00:02:41,320 --> 00:02:43,160 Speaker 1: or something. You know, I'm not drinking all four in 49 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:46,160 Speaker 1: an evening, so I think I gotta take value into 50 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 1: accounts for sure. It's it's yeah, you drink it more 51 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,720 Speaker 1: like wine than you know, than like a natty light. 52 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: And that's what we try to anytime someone hasn't heard 53 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: of the show and we're talking about it, we have 54 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: to kind of explain to them as like we're not 55 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: like just crushing beers on the show, smashing the cans 56 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:03,799 Speaker 1: in our forehead. We're literally splitting the six we're sharing it. 57 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 1: It matters up perfection fancy tulip glasses, but we love 58 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,360 Speaker 1: it even the proper glass. Yes, exactly. We're big fans 59 00:03:10,480 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 1: of Other Half for sure. Man. One that sticks out 60 00:03:12,480 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: in my mind wasn't wasn't it an Other Half that 61 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,240 Speaker 1: did the wedge salad collaboration they made like all these 62 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: vegetable super hoppy. I mean high on them, not a 63 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: big I'm not a big hophead. But I can stick 64 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: to those pastry stouts. I do love the pastry stouts. 65 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:29,600 Speaker 1: But now that half in the hands of a lesser brewery, 66 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 1: that may have been disastrous. I think vegetable combination, I 67 00:03:33,200 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: think other half can pull it off. They totally can. 68 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 1: They They make me want to drink my veggies. You know, well, well, Jennifer, 69 00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: you're also the We didn't mention this in your bio, 70 00:03:42,440 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: but you're also the chief education officer at Acorns, the 71 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: the app that allows you to stash away money. Uh. 72 00:03:48,760 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: We're big fans of the app, and you know we've 73 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: talked about it on the show. And so how has 74 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: your time at Acorns? What is that like? I guess, 75 00:03:54,680 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: first of all, being part of a cutting edge fintech company, 76 00:03:57,440 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 1: uh like? And how has that changed how you view 77 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: money yourself? Sure? UM, I mean it's exciting, right. It's 78 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: not the first startup I worked for. UM. I worked 79 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: for the Street dot Com in a short lived joint 80 00:04:09,600 --> 00:04:12,320 Speaker 1: venture with the New York Times was my first experience, 81 00:04:12,360 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: and then I worked at Daily Worth, which was a 82 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: financial media company that targeted women and I loved it, 83 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,159 Speaker 1: but unfortunately they went under, which is always a risk 84 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: with a startup. I don't think that's going to be 85 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: energy With Acorns, we're doing very well. We have over 86 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 1: nine million users and UM I really have grown just 87 00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:31,320 Speaker 1: by leaps and balance since I joined five years ago. UM. 88 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: But the reason I went, I mean, I know you 89 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: mentioned UM. I was a journalist for a very long 90 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,719 Speaker 1: time financial journalist, and I felt like, UM I was 91 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: just writing the same headlines over and over again, which 92 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 1: was like, you know, Americans don't save enough to cover 93 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:48,040 Speaker 1: a four in a dollar or a thousand dollar emergency. 94 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:50,120 Speaker 1: We're on the brink of a retirement crisis, you know, 95 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 1: just these really scary headlines. And I was starting to 96 00:04:54,240 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: get really frustrated and wondering, you know, we're giving people 97 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:00,679 Speaker 1: good information here UM through financial journalism, Why are people 98 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: still not making the decisions they need to in order 99 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: to set themselves up? And so we had actually covered Acorns. 100 00:05:06,920 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 1: I was working at CNBC UM as Personal Finance editor 101 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: before I joined Acorns, and I was intrigued by the 102 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:17,480 Speaker 1: concept of investing spare change, which was the first UM 103 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 1: feature that we launched with and I thought, this is 104 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:25,280 Speaker 1: incredible because it removes so many of the mental barriers 105 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Right, if you were just 106 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: investing spare change, you know how big a risk is that, Right? 107 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,000 Speaker 1: What else are you going to do with it? Is 108 00:05:32,000 --> 00:05:34,839 Speaker 1: sitting in your couch gathering dust? Right, So why not 109 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: invest it? Um? And it was just so easy in 110 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: the way that it was connected with spending. You know, 111 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:41,279 Speaker 1: you you link your card and every time you spend, 112 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 1: we round up your purchases and we invest the change. 113 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,040 Speaker 1: Just made it so simple and then we were invested 114 00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:48,719 Speaker 1: ere they were at the TUM. I wasn't there yet. 115 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 1: They were investing it into pre selected portfolios that had 116 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,480 Speaker 1: exposure to a wide range you know, thousands of stocks 117 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,919 Speaker 1: and bonds and so it was automatically diversified. So it 118 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: was really like about as simple as it could be. Yeah, um, yeah, 119 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: So that's what was intriguing to me. I was really 120 00:06:03,720 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: drawn by the mission and I wanted to be a 121 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: part of the solution. And I've been here now for 122 00:06:09,400 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: more than five years and now I'm the chief Education Officer, 123 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: so I get the chance to educate our users and um, 124 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,479 Speaker 1: you know, and the general public about the topic that 125 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: I love almost as much as beer, which is nice. Well, 126 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: that's cool, that's cool. Yeah, And Acorns is doing a 127 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: great job at simplifying things, and Matt and I believe 128 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: that simplification is such a huge part of making personal 129 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:35,440 Speaker 1: finance relevant to to everybody. Right and uh, And Jennifer 130 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: in your book, in your new book, you you start 131 00:06:37,680 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 1: to detail, Um, let's go back even further, right, because 132 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: you wrote about money, but you you talk about how 133 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: in your late twenties you weren't doing all that great 134 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:53,400 Speaker 1: with money and calling that out. Hey you called yourself out, Okay, 135 00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: but like, what was that time like for you? What 136 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: were you starting to realize about your money situation? Kind 137 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 1: of yeah, as your you know, approach approaching that mark. Yeah, 138 00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 1: I mean, oh, I made a lot of mistakes in 139 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,640 Speaker 1: my twenties. I know a lot of us do. And 140 00:07:06,640 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: when I look back now, I can trace a lot 141 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,040 Speaker 1: of it back to the fact that I was not 142 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,520 Speaker 1: thinking like a breadwinner. So I was not making money 143 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,720 Speaker 1: choices from a place of how can I ensure I 144 00:07:17,760 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: am able to take care of myself financially for life 145 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,400 Speaker 1: and maybe others too. Um, I wasn't raised that way. 146 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,480 Speaker 1: I wasn't thinking about money that way. Um, And culturally 147 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: most women are not raised to think of themselves as breadwinners. 148 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: But it really isn't conscious, right. I think the cultural 149 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: prescription that we get as women is often this, get 150 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: a career, get married, save some for a rainy day, 151 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:42,080 Speaker 1: and save some for retirement. And that's what I was doing. 152 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: And it was really it was actually in my early 153 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: thirties that I really had a wake up call and 154 00:07:46,000 --> 00:07:48,400 Speaker 1: I realized, like, this leaves out a whole chunk of 155 00:07:48,440 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: our lives, you know, like the decades between saving for 156 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,960 Speaker 1: a nice handbag or girls getaway post pandemic and retirement. 157 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: And we were in a situation at the time. We 158 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: were in a tiny one bedroom in New York, which 159 00:08:01,680 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: is not uncommon, but sharing it with the toddler, and 160 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,680 Speaker 1: it was unsustainable. And I had a moment where I realized, 161 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:11,520 Speaker 1: I am in no position here to help us, to 162 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: help us afford at a bigger place, certainly not to 163 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: buy a place here. Um, you know, not even sure 164 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,440 Speaker 1: I could afford to have a second child, you know, 165 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 1: looking at my own finances. And that was a huge 166 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: wake up call for me because Up until that point, 167 00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 1: I thought I was doing okay financially. But I realized, 168 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: I think in that moment that there's a material difference 169 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: between being able to cover the bills and then being 170 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: able to build wealth to support the life you want. Um. 171 00:08:39,360 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: And that was a turning point for me. Yeah, and 172 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: and and for not just you personally, but you you know, 173 00:08:44,520 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 1: you've discovered that lots of women we're facing similar realizations, right. 174 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: You know what, what did you find after kind of 175 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: digging into the data about you know, just women at large, 176 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:57,000 Speaker 1: you know, just across the entire population. Yeah, I mean 177 00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: I I realized I certainly was not alone. Um. And 178 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: I think, if you know, even though women are the 179 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 1: main or soul breadwinner now in more than forty of 180 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: households with kids under eighteen, we have not really caught 181 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: up to this reality yet culturally. So even if you 182 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:16,200 Speaker 1: look at the research, research shows that parents actually speak 183 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 1: differently to their daughters about money than they do to 184 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: their sons. So they're more likely to teach their girls 185 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 1: how to budget and how to spend smartly, and they're 186 00:09:24,160 --> 00:09:26,440 Speaker 1: more likely to teach their sons how to build credit 187 00:09:26,520 --> 00:09:29,720 Speaker 1: and how to invest to build wealth and those are 188 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,360 Speaker 1: critical skills for everyone, but women are just a lot 189 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: less likely to get that training or even to get 190 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: the message of how important it is to invest to 191 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,319 Speaker 1: grow their wealth. And so I realized that so much 192 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: of this came down to the fact that we are 193 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: really not um socialized to think of ourselves like breadwinners, 194 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:49,679 Speaker 1: and that informs so many of the money choices that 195 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: we make, especially early on. So it helps to explain 196 00:09:53,440 --> 00:09:57,360 Speaker 1: in part why we disproportionately choose the lowest paying careers, 197 00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 1: the lowest paying majors, even in the highest paying jor 198 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:02,839 Speaker 1: as we picked the lowest paying paths. Um. You know, 199 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:04,800 Speaker 1: I don't need to tell you we save and invest 200 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: less than men. Um we have, we're earning less. And 201 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 1: you know, if you look at the gender wealth gap, 202 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: it's thirty two cents for every single woman compared to 203 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: a dollar for every man on average. Obviously, but that's 204 00:10:16,800 --> 00:10:20,719 Speaker 1: a huge gap, and it's not entirely explained by the 205 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,240 Speaker 1: fact that we aren't perceiving ourselves as breadwinners and sort 206 00:10:23,240 --> 00:10:27,199 Speaker 1: of making money choices from that place. But that really 207 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 1: does help explain a lot of it, because we sort 208 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: of know what to do at this point with our 209 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 1: money or at least the basics. So a lot of 210 00:10:34,000 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 1: this is around these internal barriers that we have UM 211 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: to making those choices. And also if we don't believe 212 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: that our income is as important as our partners, we 213 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: may not treat it that way. UM. And and we're 214 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:48,719 Speaker 1: really it's time to shift that. I think there's a 215 00:10:48,800 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 1: huge opportunity to shift the way we're thinking about ourselves 216 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: and our capabilities, UM and the role we can play 217 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: in our partnerships. Yeah. You you mentioned too in the 218 00:10:59,000 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: book that you had some of some fans about your 219 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: husband making more money than you did, challenging these previously 220 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,600 Speaker 1: held money in relational beliefs. Was that the biggest struggle? 221 00:11:07,640 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 1: And how did you do that? And how did you 222 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,280 Speaker 1: guys do that together? Yeah? I had two big wake 223 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: up calls. The first was that the one I talked 224 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,000 Speaker 1: about a little bit earlier, UM, when I was sort 225 00:11:18,040 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: of asking myself like, hey, I thought I was this 226 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,400 Speaker 1: independent woman. How am I in a situation now where 227 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,760 Speaker 1: some of the things that are most important to me 228 00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:27,480 Speaker 1: or at stake and realizing that, you know, I had 229 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: some pretty deep seated assumptions about the role that my 230 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: partner would play and I think they were based largely 231 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: on the fact that, you know, my my own father 232 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: had been the sole breadwinner for much of my childhood 233 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 1: and then the primary one, And so that was the 234 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,439 Speaker 1: model I had. My mom stepped out of the workforce. 235 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: I shouldn't say stepped out. I mean, it's never that simple, 236 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: but she didn't work for a long time and then 237 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: started working again just before they got divorced. So that 238 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,959 Speaker 1: was the model I had growing up. And I think, um, 239 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: just deep down in my subconscious I sort of assumed 240 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:00,960 Speaker 1: it would be a similar situation aation when I got married. Now, 241 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,920 Speaker 1: my husband was earning more than me. But but right 242 00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: before that wake up call, he had had, you know, 243 00:12:06,320 --> 00:12:09,240 Speaker 1: his um company he'd worked for had gone under. He'd 244 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: gotten a new job that paid a little bit less, 245 00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: so that the gap between our earnings was smaller. But 246 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:15,480 Speaker 1: I was still sort of holding on to this idea 247 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:17,720 Speaker 1: that he would be the one to take the lead, 248 00:12:17,800 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: and not even consciously, I had to really, you know, 249 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: I realized that's what I was still holding onto. So yeah, 250 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,880 Speaker 1: we we did have to have a conversation about that, 251 00:12:24,960 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: and I said, I really want to be more active 252 00:12:28,240 --> 00:12:30,559 Speaker 1: financially and making sure that we can afford the things 253 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,200 Speaker 1: we both really want, which was having a second kid, 254 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: staying in New York City, buying a place of our own, 255 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: and um so, I you know, I said to him, 256 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: I'm committed to doing my part to make sure we 257 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,599 Speaker 1: can make that happen. And it was for him, but 258 00:12:44,640 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: it was also for me because I wanted to feel 259 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 1: more secure about our future and feel like I was 260 00:12:49,600 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: contributing to it as well, and have more of a 261 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 1: sense of agency, you know, over my own life rather 262 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: than than kind of leaning on someone else for that. 263 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: That was the first one, and then the second part 264 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: of that was I realized that I had not negotiated 265 00:13:05,920 --> 00:13:08,199 Speaker 1: my salary at the magazine where I was working at 266 00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: the time. I've been there seven years, and just after 267 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: I got back from Eternity leave, I found out that 268 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 1: someone had been hired in a similar role who had 269 00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:19,000 Speaker 1: just did a couple of years more experience than I 270 00:13:19,040 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: did at fifty more than Oh my god, it was 271 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: like a punch of legat. I can't even tell you 272 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,959 Speaker 1: it was. I mean, it really, oh it was incredible, 273 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:31,920 Speaker 1: and I just thought to myself, I mean, I remember 274 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,599 Speaker 1: I cried when I found out because I realized in 275 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 1: that moment so many things that I'd assumed just were 276 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 1: not the case. Like I had assumed if I worked hard, 277 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: I would get rewarded for it financially. And I hadn't 278 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:47,319 Speaker 1: really negotiated my two big promotions, really have not negotiated 279 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: a big race for either of them. Um. But more 280 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:52,520 Speaker 1: than that, I realized I've been there seven years, and 281 00:13:52,559 --> 00:13:54,760 Speaker 1: I started thinking about, oh my god, the money that 282 00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:57,559 Speaker 1: I've missed out on for seven years, not just in earnings, 283 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,439 Speaker 1: but in the amount of money I could have been 284 00:13:59,520 --> 00:14:02,320 Speaker 1: setting us odd, investing, putting toward my retirement, all of 285 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,200 Speaker 1: those things. Um. And so I really, in one quick 286 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: moment realized like the ripple effect of not negotiating your 287 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: salary at every stage. So I think both those things 288 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: kind of happened around the same time. And of course 289 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 1: my husband was very supportive. But I said to him, 290 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: then I don't think I can stay where I am. 291 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to look for better paint. Yeah, so that 292 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: was a part of it, too. Nice. Well, I mean, yeah, 293 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:26,040 Speaker 1: it sounds like your husband was on board, right, I 294 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: mean you basically you talked about having shared goals, essentially, 295 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: like you sat down, you talked through the things that 296 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,760 Speaker 1: you both want to work towards. Uh. And by the way, 297 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:35,840 Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about that negotiating like a 298 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: little bit later because we don't want to that's definitely important. 299 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: But you know, as we're talking about you personally here, 300 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,760 Speaker 1: has making more than your husband had you know, any 301 00:14:43,800 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: negative effects on your relationship. I mean, I think it 302 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: was a little bit of an adjustment for both of 303 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: us because we had different role models growing up. Right, 304 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,520 Speaker 1: both of our fathers had been the solar primary bread 305 00:14:55,520 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: winners from most of our childhoods UM and I had 306 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: some ideas about what motherhood would look like too, and 307 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: it it hadn't involved me being the primary breadwinner at 308 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: the time. And so UM, once we had our second 309 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: since we really needed to sit down, and so we 310 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,120 Speaker 1: had to have a really candid conversation about what it 311 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: would look like if I stayed in the primary bread 312 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 1: winner role. Kind of support I needed there, and you know, 313 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: how we could divide the household responsibilities and child care 314 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,120 Speaker 1: in a way that felt fair for both of us. 315 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: And of course I wanted him to feel like he 316 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: could continue to pursue his professional goals too, So it 317 00:15:34,840 --> 00:15:39,320 Speaker 1: did require um some really good communication around it and 318 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: getting to a place where we each felt like, you know, 319 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: we were supporting each other and operating like a partnership 320 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: because this was this was a little unusual for both 321 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: of us. There there was no roadmap there, so we 322 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: were sort of making making up our own rules as 323 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,600 Speaker 1: we went along. Nice hey, Jennifer. One of my favorite 324 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:58,080 Speaker 1: chapters is actually a chapter in the book called the 325 00:15:58,160 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: Joy of Breadwinning. And I want to ask you, uh 326 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: some about that and talk about how how good it 327 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 1: can be um for for women in particular. We'll get 328 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,440 Speaker 1: to some questions, uh, some more questions with you about 329 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:20,040 Speaker 1: thinking like a breadwinner right after this break, All right, 330 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:22,840 Speaker 1: we are back. We're talking with Jennifer Barrett about how 331 00:16:22,840 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: to think like a breadwinner. Uh. And Jennifer, even you know, 332 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,880 Speaker 1: even when women earn more than their husbands, you say that, 333 00:16:29,320 --> 00:16:31,560 Speaker 1: you know, there are still these mental hurdles that that 334 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: need to be overcome. And so can you explain to 335 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,840 Speaker 1: us and explain to our listeners, like what is the 336 00:16:35,840 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: difference between just being a breadwinner versus thinking like one? Sure? 337 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 1: I interviewed over a d women for this book, and 338 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 1: some of them, many of them were in the breadwinner role. 339 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:48,960 Speaker 1: And what I heard from from them, and research supports 340 00:16:49,000 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: this too, is that, you know, there are some women 341 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: who are breadwinners by choice, and there are some women 342 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: who are breadwinners by chance. And in the last recession, 343 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 1: the Great Recession, men disproportionately lost, you know, the majority 344 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:05,480 Speaker 1: of jobs, and some of those jobs were not replaced, 345 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,240 Speaker 1: and so literally millions of women suddenly found themselves in 346 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: the main breadwinning role. And that's really when we started 347 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,880 Speaker 1: to see this paradigm shift in the breadwinning model. UM. 348 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: But the distinction was, you know, if you're a woman 349 00:17:17,760 --> 00:17:20,600 Speaker 1: who suddenly finds yourself in the main earner role because 350 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: your husband lost his job or he's now making less 351 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,880 Speaker 1: money than he used to, UM, that is very different 352 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: than coming in with a breadwinner mindset and saying like, 353 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:30,880 Speaker 1: I'm going to make the money choices that will help 354 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: support me, help support my future, help support you know, 355 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,600 Speaker 1: my family or my potential family in the future. And 356 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: so a lot of women who found themselves in that 357 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:43,119 Speaker 1: role really didn't feel prepared for it because you're not 358 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: just earning more, you are now the one who is 359 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: carrying most of the financial responsibilities. And mean, let's be honest, 360 00:17:48,520 --> 00:17:50,560 Speaker 1: if you're earning more, you are also sort of expected 361 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: to be the one who's planning for the future. You know, 362 00:17:52,960 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: who's investing for the future, who's making a lot of 363 00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: those um taking a lot of those actions too. So 364 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: I I talk about that distinction a lot in the book, 365 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 1: um that you know, one of the reasons we want 366 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:06,639 Speaker 1: to raise more women to think like breadwinners is because 367 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: of how empowering it is to feel that way whether 368 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,760 Speaker 1: or not you become the main earner in a relationship, 369 00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:15,239 Speaker 1: but also because so many women are going to end 370 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: up in that role and you really want to be 371 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: prepared for it. Yeah, even if you don't become the 372 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,199 Speaker 1: main breadwinner in your family as a female, thinking like 373 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 1: a breadwinner still has a really big impact, right. And 374 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: I think my favorite chapter, like I said before the break, 375 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:33,680 Speaker 1: was the Joy of Breadwinning, and so like, yeah, what 376 00:18:33,760 --> 00:18:36,200 Speaker 1: do you think in that regard that women gain by 377 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,040 Speaker 1: by thinking like a breadwinner? Sure? And we actually that 378 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,640 Speaker 1: was the original title of the book too. So yeah, 379 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: I feel so strongly about that because I really wanted 380 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: to shift the way we think about breadwinning is something 381 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:49,960 Speaker 1: that's not a burden, but that is really such a 382 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,840 Speaker 1: benefit to us and and for me it I mean 383 00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: it really I it built my confidence up, my sense 384 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: of security, the possibilities I saw from myself, my sense 385 00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 1: of what my capabilities were around not just wealth building, 386 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: but from my career really for every aspect of my life. 387 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 1: So there is so much joy in breadwinning. I cannot 388 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 1: tell you how amazing it felt when I put down 389 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,280 Speaker 1: most of the money uh for the down payment on 390 00:19:17,320 --> 00:19:19,919 Speaker 1: the home we still live in today, and just walking 391 00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: around the apartment knowing that I had contributed so much 392 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: to making it happen. I mean, it was amazing. It's 393 00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,159 Speaker 1: just an incredible feeling to know that you can provide 394 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: for yourself, that you can provide for the people you love, 395 00:19:31,920 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 1: that you have that capability. And so whether or not 396 00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,919 Speaker 1: I stay in the main earning role is sort of irrelevant. 397 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,080 Speaker 1: It's really about knowing that we're capable of doing that 398 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,160 Speaker 1: and and also building the skills right that's important to 399 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:48,080 Speaker 1: to um to flex those muscles because women in particular, 400 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,680 Speaker 1: I mean, no one in America is getting great uh 401 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 1: foundation in financial literacy right now. It's we are really 402 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,919 Speaker 1: lacking in that area. Um it's it's it's yeah, and 403 00:19:58,960 --> 00:20:01,159 Speaker 1: you know this. You talked about this a lot, um, 404 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,600 Speaker 1: but I think women in particular are are less likely 405 00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: to both get that education and get the message about 406 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: how important it is to be saving and investing for 407 00:20:11,680 --> 00:20:15,399 Speaker 1: your future, not just for retirement. Yeah, and Jennifer, in 408 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: the book, you mentioned what you call the sneaky self 409 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:22,040 Speaker 1: sabotaging beliefs that are, yeah, that are hard to even 410 00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 1: pinpoint because you know, they've been so conditioned into who 411 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: you are, like you know, since childhood. And so how 412 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:30,240 Speaker 1: do you suggest that women start to kind of like 413 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: unravel the subconscious beliefs that are that are holding them back. 414 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: Is it as simple as not watching like snow White 415 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,080 Speaker 1: and Sleeping Beauty and instead looking to Mowanna and Frozen, 416 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 1: you know, like you talked about kind of like the 417 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: classic Disney tropes, but it truly is ingrained in us. 418 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 1: But I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, yeah, how 419 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,760 Speaker 1: to kind of fight back and unravel those subconscious beliefs. Yeah, 420 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: I think, Um, we're not really waiting for a prince 421 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 1: to save us per se, but um, at least we 422 00:20:57,280 --> 00:20:59,280 Speaker 1: don't think we are. I think if you look at 423 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,640 Speaker 1: the way, um, overall, you know, the choices that women 424 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 1: are making with their money. You could almost argue that 425 00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 1: from a financial perspective, it is almost as if we 426 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 1: are waiting for someone to rescue us sometimes. But I 427 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 1: will say that that conditioning comes from so many places. 428 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:17,640 Speaker 1: It's really not just Disney. It's just this overall belief 429 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 1: that our income is not as critical as men's um 430 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: and that's pervasive in the workplace. It's you know, it's 431 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: the assumption upon which many policies are based. You know, 432 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: right down to paid leave. You know, the fact that 433 00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,280 Speaker 1: we have maternity leave and often not paid for most 434 00:21:31,320 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: of it, and very little paternity leaves. So there there 435 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:35,720 Speaker 1: are a lot of ways that this shows up that 436 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: may not be obvious. And then and of course the 437 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,879 Speaker 1: messaging that a lot of us get growing up. And 438 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: it's not intentional. So, you know, women who did have 439 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,200 Speaker 1: a breadwinning mindset and from the get go, they often 440 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: had some experience in their childhood where either you know, 441 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: they were raised by a single mom or they had 442 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: a mom who said to them, you know, you need 443 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: to be able to take care of yourself. They got 444 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:56,359 Speaker 1: some kind of counter programming to the you know, the 445 00:21:56,440 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: over arching cultural conditioning that we get but for most 446 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:02,320 Speaker 1: of us, we we don't. So I think the first 447 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: step is being aware of that, just being aware of 448 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,760 Speaker 1: all these messages that are really sort of subconsciously saying 449 00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: we don't need to start investing right away, we don't 450 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 1: need to be in a position to take care of 451 00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: ourselves for life, We don't need to expect to be 452 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 1: able to take care of a family, because Number one, 453 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,800 Speaker 1: that that's really just not true anymore. But just keeping 454 00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 1: in mind that our culture just hasn't quite caught up 455 00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:29,520 Speaker 1: to that reality, and being aware of how disempowering some 456 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: of those messages can be, and then really examining kind 457 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: of your own money stories and money beliefs, So looking 458 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,320 Speaker 1: back at your childhood and thinking about the money messages 459 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:41,879 Speaker 1: that came out of that. For me in my twenties, 460 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: you know, I made a series of bad mistakes with 461 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 1: my money, and I really had this idea. I talked 462 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 1: about this in the book, that I was bad with money, 463 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:53,320 Speaker 1: and that just got cemented in my brain. Right, I 464 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: am bad with money, and um, you know other women 465 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 1: I've talked to have said the same thing. Oh I'm 466 00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 1: bad with money. Oh I just don't like to think 467 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: about money. You know, math is hard whatever, whatever the 468 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:05,200 Speaker 1: message is, um, I really had to work to overwrite 469 00:23:05,240 --> 00:23:07,600 Speaker 1: that programming to say, like, I am good with money. 470 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 1: You know, just because I made a few mistakes doesn't 471 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:12,359 Speaker 1: mean I'm bad with money. In fact, you know, the 472 00:23:12,400 --> 00:23:14,959 Speaker 1: more I taught myself about investing and all of that 473 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,120 Speaker 1: and then I was covering personal finance, really became much 474 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: more knowledgeable. I realized I'm actually pretty good with money. 475 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,199 Speaker 1: I just never got a really good education around what 476 00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:27,119 Speaker 1: to do UM with my money and how to build wealth. 477 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: And so now my message is I am good with money. 478 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:34,719 Speaker 1: And that completely transformed my relationship with money. UM. So 479 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,880 Speaker 1: it's huge just first being aware and then thinking about 480 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,879 Speaker 1: how to transform those beliefs into more empowering ones that 481 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 1: will really help support you in your goals. Yeah. And 482 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 1: then that can be kind of a process, right, a 483 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:50,320 Speaker 1: process of learning and then a process of having essentially 484 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:54,520 Speaker 1: an internal conversation. UM that that helps you to change 485 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: the way you perceive even yourself. And and I think 486 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,000 Speaker 1: like one of the things you you mentioned in the book, 487 00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 1: you said that many women aren't raised to think like breadwinners, 488 00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: but are instead encouraged to marry one that that's one 489 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 1: of those like self sabotaging beliefs that you're talking about 490 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: right exactly exactly, and it's not you know, I I 491 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 1: have this conversation with women all the time where I 492 00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: don't think it's we're not going back like twenty thirty years, 493 00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: where it's like a man is going to save me necessarily, 494 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: But there is still a belief that you know, we're 495 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,800 Speaker 1: not going to be fully financially responsible for ourselves. Sort 496 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 1: of lets us off the hook a little bit, I think, 497 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: and so there's less of a sense of urgency, Like 498 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 1: if you think to yourself, I am fully responsible for 499 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:37,919 Speaker 1: myself financially for life fully and probably a family too. 500 00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: If you're operating from that belief, um, you are going 501 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: to make very different choices. You know, You're going to 502 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,879 Speaker 1: be thinking about I need to I need to build 503 00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: my credit so that I can buy home. I need 504 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 1: to start investing early on so I make sure I 505 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: have enough money to afford the things that I want 506 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: and make sure I have enough for retirement. And there's 507 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: just more of a sense of urgency around that if 508 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: you expect to be in the breadwinning role. And my 509 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,679 Speaker 1: message to women is like whether or not you expect 510 00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: to be in that role. It is really beneficial to 511 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,359 Speaker 1: think that way because the more um you know, the 512 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: more you're able to build wealth, the more choices you 513 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,120 Speaker 1: have in your life, you know, and and the more 514 00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 1: security you have in knowing that you can support the 515 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: life that you want. You don't need to ever feel 516 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,879 Speaker 1: like you you have to depend on someone else for that, Jeffer. 517 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: You know, status are shown too, you know, with the 518 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 1: pandemic that that's caused around like two and a half 519 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,800 Speaker 1: million women to leave the workforce during the pandemic, and 520 00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:29,480 Speaker 1: so you know, this is bad news for the economy, 521 00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: you know, it's and it's bad news for the earning 522 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,919 Speaker 1: ability of those women, you know, in the future if 523 00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: they do want to kind of get back into the workforce. So, actually, 524 00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: after the break, we're gonna talk through some of the 525 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: practical steps that women can take to becoming breadwinners and 526 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,760 Speaker 1: their families. And we'll get to that right after this. 527 00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 1: All right, we're back. We're talking with Jennifer Barrett. She's 528 00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 1: written an awesome book about how to think like a breadwinner. 529 00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:01,359 Speaker 1: And Jennifer, we've come some of the mindset stuff that 530 00:26:01,480 --> 00:26:04,960 Speaker 1: is of course important, like those ingrained beliefs hold a 531 00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: lot of power over over all of us and and 532 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: over women in thinking, being able to think like a 533 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,479 Speaker 1: breadwinner and some of the things that that are ingrained 534 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,960 Speaker 1: in in us from childhood even But what are some 535 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: of the practical financial steps that it takes to reach 536 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 1: breadwinner status? Sure? I think it starts with your earnings, right, 537 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,480 Speaker 1: because your income is the springboard for all your wealth 538 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: building efforts, and so you want to make sure that 539 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:29,000 Speaker 1: you're making as much as you can at any point 540 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 1: in time, and that means negotiating, of course. And if 541 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: you are going to negotiate, make sure you are well 542 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 1: aware of what your market value is. That's so important 543 00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:39,680 Speaker 1: really all the time, even if you're in a job 544 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: you love, making sure that you're getting paid on the 545 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: high end of what your market value is for the 546 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,400 Speaker 1: skills you bring in the role you're in, and then 547 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 1: quantifying your successes in your role at say, when you 548 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:53,920 Speaker 1: come in to negotiate for a raise or anything like that, 549 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: that you come in with quantifiable data of how you're 550 00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 1: bringing value to the company, because the numbers don't lie, 551 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:01,280 Speaker 1: and that helps take a lot of the emotion out 552 00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: of it too. So number one, your earnings being really 553 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: strategic in the way that you plan your career, and 554 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,640 Speaker 1: then the choices you make around that to make sure 555 00:27:08,680 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: you're earning enough to support the life that you want. Um. 556 00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: And then number two, Oh my god, I mean invest 557 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,760 Speaker 1: I cannot like, I cannot say that enough. I I 558 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,439 Speaker 1: often tell women, use every paycheck as an opportunity to 559 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: become less dependent on the next paycheck. Yeah, so I'll 560 00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:29,439 Speaker 1: say that's great, that's great. Yes, use every paycheck as 561 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: an opportunity to become less dependent on the next one. Yeah. 562 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: And what that really means is that you look at 563 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,439 Speaker 1: that money coming in and you think, how much of 564 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,320 Speaker 1: this can I immediately take and put towards my future 565 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,760 Speaker 1: and start growing it, um, so that I become increasingly 566 00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:46,280 Speaker 1: less dependent on my paychecks. And that is one way 567 00:27:46,320 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: to sort of wean yourself off the paycheck to paycheck lifestyle, which, 568 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:51,160 Speaker 1: by the way, that's where I was. You know, when 569 00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: I had my wake up call, was living paycheck to 570 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 1: paycheck and I still had credit card debt. So so 571 00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: I know, I know how difficult this can be, but 572 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,520 Speaker 1: it really starts with like, Okay, I'm going to take 573 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: a little chunk every month, put it into a regular 574 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,679 Speaker 1: investment account or a roth I array, something you know 575 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,760 Speaker 1: I can touch before retirement. UM, put some more money 576 00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:12,640 Speaker 1: into savings. Start growing that money. Because the more your 577 00:28:12,640 --> 00:28:14,520 Speaker 1: money works for you, the less you have to work 578 00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: for your money. You know, that's the bottom line. And 579 00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:20,280 Speaker 1: as you as you build your wealth, m I mean, god, 580 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,480 Speaker 1: the sense of security that comes with that, but also 581 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: the choices, right because as you become less dependent on 582 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:30,120 Speaker 1: your paycheck, all sorts of possibilities open up. Like for me, 583 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,000 Speaker 1: I was able to pull back to reduce my hours 584 00:28:33,000 --> 00:28:35,200 Speaker 1: as I was working on this book. UM, I'm not 585 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 1: sure I would have been comfortable doing that if I 586 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:39,480 Speaker 1: hadn't already built up quite a bit of money in 587 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:42,960 Speaker 1: my investment accounts and our investment accounts and then our savings. 588 00:28:42,960 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 1: So I was you know, I was able to do 589 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: that without taking a hit, um, in part because I 590 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: planned for it. So those are the sorts of choices 591 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 1: that you have when you start, when you start saving 592 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: and investing for your future. So that's so important, and 593 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,480 Speaker 1: I think, honestly those are the two most important things 594 00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: you can do. And then just being really mindful with 595 00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:04,680 Speaker 1: your spending. So I would ask myself on a regular basis, like, 596 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: are the money choices I'm making me bringing me closer 597 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: to this future that I want or further away? And 598 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:13,200 Speaker 1: that's a good gut check. Yeah yeah, yeah. Well so 599 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,400 Speaker 1: I mean that that second point was investing, right. Uh 600 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 1: And in the book to you give the analogy that 601 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: putting away money it's sort of like building a boat. 602 00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,160 Speaker 1: Can you kind of explain that for folks, because that's 603 00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: such a great way to talk about it as to 604 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: what it can do for you? Sure, I mean the 605 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: way I used to think about savings and the way 606 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: that is sort of portrayed in you know, not to. 607 00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: I was part of women's media, so I was probably 608 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: part of this. But um, in women's media, we often 609 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:39,720 Speaker 1: talk about savings is like saving for that handbag or 610 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: a girl's getaway or something like that, very short term thinking. 611 00:29:43,080 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: But what I realized was savings is really about you know, 612 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 1: more savings, more choices. It's really about um giving yourself 613 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: the freedom to be able to walk away from a 614 00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,640 Speaker 1: situation that is not UM, that is not good, that 615 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,840 Speaker 1: does not support you. So, for example, if you were 616 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 1: living paycheck to pay check, are perceiving yourself as a 617 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,600 Speaker 1: living paycheck to paycheck and being so dependent on that. 618 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:07,600 Speaker 1: Think about how you're showing up at work right You're 619 00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 1: afraid to speak up. You're afraid to rock the boat. 620 00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: You're afraid to stand up if your boss to something 621 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:14,200 Speaker 1: that makes you uncomfortable even do you know what I mean? 622 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: Like you're just you're giving up some of your power 623 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: there and and so that's savings is a big part 624 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: of that. And I even talk in the book about 625 00:30:21,680 --> 00:30:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, there are more examples that I put in 626 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: the book, but so many, so many instances of sexual 627 00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:32,040 Speaker 1: harassment and and microaggressions and overt um you know what 628 00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: would definitely get someone in trouble these days. Um that 629 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: I put up with early in my career. And I thought, 630 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 1: my god, you know, as I as I set aside 631 00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,160 Speaker 1: more money and savings and investment and I moved up 632 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: in my career, I just wouldn't put up with that anymore. UM. 633 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: But I realized, you know, you, if you feel like 634 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 1: you can't cover the rent on your own, if you 635 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: feel like you're living paycheck to paycheck, you leave yourself 636 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: very vulnerable and and you could get stuck in a 637 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: in a situation you don't want to be in simply 638 00:30:59,040 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 1: because you don't think you can afford to get out, 639 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: and that God, that is a terrible place to be. Yeah, 640 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: Matt and I've talked about the concept of peace out money, 641 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: and you know, some people call it a few money, 642 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:17,280 Speaker 1: but yeah, really friendly exactly, but it can really be 643 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: that that you know, boat to allow you to to quit, 644 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,960 Speaker 1: to get out of the toxic situation. And it's really 645 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: really important, especially I think for for women, right um, 646 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: And to Jennifer, you talk about you tackle the question 647 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: of having it all in chapter thirteen in the book. 648 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:34,760 Speaker 1: For lots of women, I think it feels like they 649 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,160 Speaker 1: have to make a choice between having a career and 650 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: then having a family having kids. So, um, like, can 651 00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:44,840 Speaker 1: our female listeners, can women have it all? And do 652 00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: they have to choose between those things? Or is that 653 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: like a false echonomy? I think it is a false echonomy. 654 00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:53,200 Speaker 1: But I understand why so many women feel that way. 655 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:56,760 Speaker 1: And you know, initially, I I was really torn to 656 00:31:57,080 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: when I, um, when I first became the main bread 657 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: owner and we have these two young kids, because so 658 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 1: much of our identities is wrapped up in being a 659 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,480 Speaker 1: mom and being a good mom and what that means 660 00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,400 Speaker 1: and um, it's really hard. It's really hard to do 661 00:32:11,440 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 1: it all. Um, I agree, but I think that that's 662 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:16,800 Speaker 1: kind of the wrong question to ask to. You know. 663 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: The whole point of thinking like a breadwinner is that 664 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:21,360 Speaker 1: it's thinking about what you want to have in your 665 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,960 Speaker 1: life and and what are the choices you need to 666 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:25,680 Speaker 1: make to support that. And I think that's a much 667 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: more empowering way to look at it than feeling like 668 00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:31,400 Speaker 1: we have to live up to some have it all ideal, 669 00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: because we have the opportunity to define having it all 670 00:32:34,240 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: however we want to. And I can speak from experience now. 671 00:32:37,600 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 1: You know, I've been the primary breadwinner for over a 672 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,720 Speaker 1: decade now, and we have two lovely boys, and I 673 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 1: feel very very close to them. Um, I feel fully 674 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 1: involved as a mother. So I can tell you from 675 00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: personal experience it is one a dred percent possible. Doesn't 676 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: mean it's not, you know, it doesn't mean it's easy, 677 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:56,719 Speaker 1: and it doesn't mean it doesn't require, you know, some 678 00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,720 Speaker 1: conversations with your partner to make sure that you both 679 00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:04,200 Speaker 1: feel like you are splitting the household responsibilities and the 680 00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: bread winning responsibilities in a fair way. But it is. 681 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 1: It is entirely possible. It really is. And I think 682 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: it's becoming easier and easier the more aware we are 683 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,840 Speaker 1: of some of these external barriers too, and and um, 684 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: we're addressing them, you know, and paid leave, all of 685 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: these things, these are flexibility, remote work, all of these 686 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,280 Speaker 1: things are part of the national conversation right now, and 687 00:33:25,320 --> 00:33:27,080 Speaker 1: so I really am hopeful that we're going to see 688 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,960 Speaker 1: a lot of progress on all those fronts. Nice and Jennifer, 689 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 1: one last question here for you before we let you go. 690 00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 1: You know, you detail how much of the problem it 691 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: can be corrected, you know, early on in childhood. I've 692 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: got three girls. Joel's got to what do you tell 693 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: the parents of young girls about how to think like 694 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: the breadwinners that they are capable of becoming. Oh, I 695 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:50,440 Speaker 1: mean the first, um, the first opportunity is really to 696 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 1: start speaking to them about investing, and when you talk 697 00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,440 Speaker 1: to them about the career that they might want later, 698 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:58,200 Speaker 1: looking at what that career pays, you know, looking at 699 00:33:58,240 --> 00:34:00,720 Speaker 1: what does stop, and just being really listic about like 700 00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:02,080 Speaker 1: what is the life that you want to have and 701 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 1: what kind of earnings do you want to have and 702 00:34:03,800 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 1: how are you going to use that support your life, 703 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:08,000 Speaker 1: and if there's a disconnect between what their expectations are 704 00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:10,720 Speaker 1: and the kind of earnings they can expect from whatever 705 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,480 Speaker 1: it is they're interested in, to have those conversations early on, 706 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: like how are you going to close that gap? Are 707 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,080 Speaker 1: there different ways to look at your career, different opportunities 708 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:20,080 Speaker 1: that will allow you to earn more? Does this mean 709 00:34:20,080 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: that you're gonna have to pick up a second job 710 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 1: when you start? Just to make sure that you're in 711 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,279 Speaker 1: a good position, Like how do you start saving and 712 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: investing early on to make sure you're set up just 713 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: really having those honest conversations about the skills that you 714 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,840 Speaker 1: need to be successful as an adults, really to be 715 00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: able to support yourself and the life you want, you know, Jennifer, 716 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,919 Speaker 1: reading your book actually made me think about talking starting 717 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: to talk with my seven year old and my five 718 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,000 Speaker 1: year old girls about like I'd opened up five nine 719 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,839 Speaker 1: plans for them, and I realized, oh, man, just in 720 00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,439 Speaker 1: a few months time, like they've grown a decent bit 721 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 1: and it maybe want to like not just look at 722 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,399 Speaker 1: that on my computer screen alone, but then bring them 723 00:34:56,400 --> 00:34:58,640 Speaker 1: into it and kind of help them see like how 724 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,400 Speaker 1: investing can make a difference, and like I wouldn't have 725 00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,839 Speaker 1: thought about that if it weren't for reading your book. 726 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: So I just want to say thank you, Like you're 727 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,000 Speaker 1: helping me raise girls that can think like brend winners. 728 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: So I appreciate that makes me so happy. It really 729 00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 1: does to hear that. Well, thank thank you. And and 730 00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: so how can our listeners find out more about you 731 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:18,080 Speaker 1: and in your new book, Um, Well, you can go 732 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: to Jennifer Barrett dot com. It's be a double R, E, 733 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:23,120 Speaker 1: double T and you can find out all about the 734 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,360 Speaker 1: book and how to order it and more about me 735 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: if you want to learn more about um and of 736 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:32,919 Speaker 1: course a corns dot com. That's that's where I work, 737 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:34,440 Speaker 1: and you can find out everything you want to know 738 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,279 Speaker 1: about a corns on that website. Well, Jennifer, thanks so 739 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 1: much for spending some time with us today. This has 740 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,879 Speaker 1: been an awesome conversation. Uh, yeah, we appreciate it. Thank you. 741 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: This has been great. All right, man, I love that 742 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: chat with Jennifer. She brought a lot of interesting knowledge 743 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:49,880 Speaker 1: and I think just a lot of like help in 744 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:51,840 Speaker 1: this conversation because I think I think she's right in 745 00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:54,920 Speaker 1: a lot of ways, like our culture has just not 746 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,800 Speaker 1: come around to the reality of the fact that almost 747 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:01,040 Speaker 1: half of women are the breadwinners and her families. And 748 00:36:01,080 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: so there's just an important conversation that needs to go 749 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:06,319 Speaker 1: alongside of this. And I'm glad Jennifer's voice is in 750 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: the ring and this book is out there because I 751 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: think it is going to be helpful to a whole 752 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: lot of women. Um, but I want to know from you, 753 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,359 Speaker 1: what was your big takeaway from this combo? Yeah? Yeah, 754 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: So I kind of lashed onto the idea that she 755 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,400 Speaker 1: was talking about when she was having these discussions with 756 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,360 Speaker 1: her husband, right, she talked about how they were able 757 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 1: to you know, it sounds like they sat down and 758 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: they talked through it. They talk through what their goals 759 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 1: or what their shared goals were. They she talked through security, like, 760 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: you know, the the gained sense of security that she 761 00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: would have by also being you know, being able to 762 00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:36,759 Speaker 1: earn more money. And so that just kind of raised 763 00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: a flag for me that it is important for us 764 00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:40,880 Speaker 1: to be talking about these things with our partners. You know, 765 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 1: it's important for us to be to have our own 766 00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: personal finances figured out, but if you're in a relationship, 767 00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: it is important to make sure that you're talking about 768 00:36:47,360 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: these things together as a couple. I think it's even 769 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: something important to discuss before you're in a long term, 770 00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:55,520 Speaker 1: committed relationship, before you're married. You know, like once you 771 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: start dating, if you're a woman and you have the 772 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:00,800 Speaker 1: goal of earning a lot of money, you know, you 773 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:03,239 Speaker 1: see yourself being in the office, this is something you 774 00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,400 Speaker 1: want to pursue. You really love your work, or or 775 00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: there's you know this other aspect, there's something else out 776 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,240 Speaker 1: there that you want to pursue that is really important 777 00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 1: to talk about. And you know, we kind of just 778 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,200 Speaker 1: barely touched on this um but I just really like 779 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:16,800 Speaker 1: the I don't know, the couple's therapy aspect of sitting 780 00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,600 Speaker 1: down talking through your goals, figuring out those goals, because 781 00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,080 Speaker 1: once you're on the same page, gosh, you can accomplish 782 00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,040 Speaker 1: so much more when you're both you know, going in 783 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: the same direction as opposed to you know, you both 784 00:37:27,680 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: not necessarily even pulling in opposite directions, but just slightly askew. 785 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: You know, like if you're both kind of pulling in 786 00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,279 Speaker 1: slightly different directions as opposed to the same direction, you're 787 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:37,360 Speaker 1: not gonna get nearly as far when it comes to 788 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 1: just your happiness you know, within that relationship. But yeah, yeah, 789 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: but also to the different goals that you're gonna be 790 00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: able to achieve as a couple. So yeah, that's something 791 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:46,799 Speaker 1: that stood up to me. But what about you? Yeah, 792 00:37:46,800 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: I thought what what Jennifer talked about when it came 793 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 1: to being aware of the subconscious messaging that we've received 794 00:37:53,080 --> 00:37:55,879 Speaker 1: for our whole lives. And I think in those conversations 795 00:37:55,920 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: that you have to have with your partner, there's a 796 00:37:58,120 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: lot of that that's gonna have to be dealt with, 797 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: and you might have to discuss things that might seem trivial, 798 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:05,719 Speaker 1: like well, in my family, my dad was the breadwinner, 799 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,719 Speaker 1: and I think that effects, you know, how I have 800 00:38:07,800 --> 00:38:10,279 Speaker 1: thought about money or how I've thought about my role 801 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,760 Speaker 1: in this family when it comes to bringing home the bacon. 802 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: And it's not just gonna be like one combo to 803 00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 1: that you know that that solves everything, But it's gonna 804 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,880 Speaker 1: be a series of combos. But it's also in those conversations, 805 00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,400 Speaker 1: it's going to be unraveling some of those things that 806 00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: have become ingrained over a whole lot of years of 807 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 1: just cultural norms and the way that I think, in particular, 808 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,600 Speaker 1: females have been left out of the money conversations in 809 00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: a lot of households, kids in general oftentimes are left out. 810 00:38:36,320 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: And that's why again, like what I said to Jennifer 811 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: at the end, I am thankful, like it is provoking 812 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:44,240 Speaker 1: me to start those conversations even younger, even about investing, 813 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: you know, not just about saving, but but helping them 814 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,879 Speaker 1: see the compounding power of money so that they can 815 00:38:49,960 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: get interested in that from a young age and and 816 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:55,319 Speaker 1: realize its power, um, so that they can maybe think 817 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,759 Speaker 1: like breadwinners earlier on and find some joy in it. So, yeah, man, 818 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, I thought that was a great conversation. 819 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 1: I'm glad we were able to have Jennifer on. Yeah. 820 00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:03,960 Speaker 1: And that's not to say too that if you and 821 00:39:03,960 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: your partner decide that what you want are what some 822 00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 1: folks would call more traditional roles, that that's not okay. 823 00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:12,880 Speaker 1: It's just that it's something to talk about, because everybody 824 00:39:12,920 --> 00:39:15,399 Speaker 1: has different goals, uh, And so you might come down 825 00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:17,200 Speaker 1: on the side of the fence where it's like, okay, cool, 826 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 1: both of our roles are gonna look just like our parents, 827 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:21,879 Speaker 1: you know, like if it's a more traditional approach where 828 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 1: you know, the mail is going to be the you know, 829 00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:27,360 Speaker 1: the main breadwinner, but you also might identify that like 830 00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: you know what you know for us, that's actually not 831 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:31,440 Speaker 1: going to be the case. Or even something that Kate 832 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,040 Speaker 1: and I have talked about, you know, like often the 833 00:39:33,080 --> 00:39:35,439 Speaker 1: future potentially kind of switching the roles up a little 834 00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: bit and making sure that, you know, we've talked about 835 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:39,480 Speaker 1: how I want to make sure that she has opportunities 836 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:41,200 Speaker 1: as well to pursue some of the things that she 837 00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:44,480 Speaker 1: wants to. That's an ongoing conversation that we've had and 838 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: and so I guess I say that to to point 839 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,920 Speaker 1: out that it's it's not like it's locked in necessarily. 840 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 1: Oftentimes you know it will be because once you advance 841 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: in your career, it's it's tougher to switch things up, 842 00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:56,960 Speaker 1: but it can be more fluid. Uh, just make sure 843 00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:58,960 Speaker 1: you're talking about it. I love it, and you know 844 00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: what else I love Matt loved this beer we had 845 00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,959 Speaker 1: on the show, and the fact too that Jennifer loves 846 00:40:04,000 --> 00:40:05,880 Speaker 1: Kraft Beer. Did she was dropped. I mean, those are 847 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:08,200 Speaker 1: the kind of breweries that we like to drink as well. 848 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,200 Speaker 1: So we all our other half totally need a at 849 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:13,000 Speaker 1: some point at least Yeah, meet up and grab some 850 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,760 Speaker 1: beers with Jennifer. Yeah, this one we on this episode 851 00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,320 Speaker 1: we had a dass Yummy, which is a what's it's 852 00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,720 Speaker 1: a banana cream pie sour? Yeah. What were your thoughts 853 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,800 Speaker 1: on this beer from usel Finch. That's the name of 854 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,960 Speaker 1: the brewery. It's an amazing name. I've never had a 855 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:29,799 Speaker 1: beer by them before, uzel Finch. I feel like we've 856 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: been having more banana beers on the show lately, like yeah, 857 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:34,920 Speaker 1: which which is kind of randoh, it's interesting, But this 858 00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:37,319 Speaker 1: is I think my favorite banana beer yet. It was 859 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:41,239 Speaker 1: really really good and it was like perfectly tart, and 860 00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,960 Speaker 1: so it definitely had that banana cream pie style thing 861 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 1: going on, with that little tartness that you get when 862 00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,920 Speaker 1: you're eating a banana cream pie. I really really like 863 00:40:49,000 --> 00:40:51,759 Speaker 1: this one. I think I've mentioned before I'm not like 864 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: I'll eat a banana here and again, like banana runts 865 00:40:54,440 --> 00:40:56,880 Speaker 1: though are often the flavor I get in banana beers, 866 00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,160 Speaker 1: and I just don't really dig banana runts, but not 867 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: a whole lot of banana runs flavor and there's not. 868 00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: This one feels a little more natural banana taste and 869 00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:07,719 Speaker 1: along with the tartness. Man, I really dug it. Yeah, 870 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 1: it's almost like like it's got all the banana fla 871 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:11,560 Speaker 1: like I wanted to say, it almost tastes like it's 872 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,880 Speaker 1: an unwrite banana because of that kind of tartness, except 873 00:41:14,960 --> 00:41:17,040 Speaker 1: that there's still good banana flavor, because a lot of 874 00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:19,439 Speaker 1: times when you have an unwrite banana bana that's too green, 875 00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:21,560 Speaker 1: there's just no banana flavor there. And so they've got 876 00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: the right amount of banana flavor here while at the 877 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,359 Speaker 1: same time a nice little bit of tartness. Um and 878 00:41:26,480 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: dude also too. I saw on the can that, speaking 879 00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:31,479 Speaker 1: of women, the head brewer at this brewery is a woman, 880 00:41:31,800 --> 00:41:34,000 Speaker 1: and so I feel like that's quite appropriate given our 881 00:41:34,040 --> 00:41:36,560 Speaker 1: conversation today with Jennifer, we need more women in the 882 00:41:36,600 --> 00:41:38,440 Speaker 1: craft of your industry. Heck, yeah, man, that's for sure. 883 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,000 Speaker 1: I'm all about it. All right, Well, that's gonna do 884 00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:42,759 Speaker 1: it for today's episode. We'll have links up in our 885 00:41:42,760 --> 00:41:45,960 Speaker 1: show notes on our website at how to money dot com. Yeah. There, 886 00:41:45,960 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 1: you can find a link to Jennifer's book in her 887 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: site if you want to learn more and support her there, 888 00:41:50,440 --> 00:41:52,000 Speaker 1: and also too, if you've been listening to the show 889 00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,480 Speaker 1: and you you found it helpful. We would love for 890 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,719 Speaker 1: you to head over to wherever it is that you 891 00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,720 Speaker 1: listen to podcasts and leave us a solid review, letting 892 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,520 Speaker 1: others know that you appreciate the podcast and we appreciate you. 893 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,399 Speaker 1: So Joel, that's gonna be a buddy until next time. 894 00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,400 Speaker 1: Best friends Out, Best Friends Out,