Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Merin Talks Your Money, the personal finance edition
Speaker 2: of Merin Talks Money. In these bonus podcasts, we talk
Speaker 2: about the best strategies for making the most of your money.
Speaker 2: I'm Merindumseet Web Bloomberg UK Wealth Editor at Large and
Speaker 2: with me as ever senior reporter and author of the
Speaker 2: Money Distilled newsletter. John Stabeck, Hi.
Speaker 3: John hil We are really rattling.
Speaker 2: Through this, aren't we. I mean, here we are in
Speaker 2: episode five already there's almost nothing more to know except
Speaker 2: for what you're going to find out today. Now before
Speaker 2: we start listen to.
Speaker 4: This, hundreds of new homes up and down the country
Speaker 4: have been built using weak mortar that does not meet
Speaker 4: recommended industry standards, and by new we mean newly built.
Speaker 4: Juliet Says brought a new home listed as being on
Speaker 4: one of the most expensive estates in England. The company
Speaker 4: had refused to repair ninety one snagging problems. The gate collapsed,
Speaker 4: for example, and a coat bottle was found inside a pillar.
Speaker 4: Tweet from Paul I purchased a new home last December.
Speaker 4: I've had multiple problems, mainly drainage. My garden is constantly flooded.
Speaker 2: Hearing all those stories slightly reminds me of the conversation
Speaker 2: we had with Professor Yolanda Barnes in our first episode,
Speaker 2: remember that about new builds, and particularly about flats and
Speaker 2: how they're an unknown quantity. You don't quite know what
Speaker 2: you're getting. You don't know where the chargers are going
Speaker 2: to go, all that kind of thing. So maybe you're
Speaker 2: better off trying to buy a house or flat that
Speaker 2: you know has already stood the test of some time.
Speaker 2: At least you know what you're getting when you buy
Speaker 2: an old house, or maybe you don't know what you're getting.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 2: We need an expert for this, so to help us
Speaker 2: answer this question, we are today joined by Paula Higgins,
Speaker 2: who is CEO of the Homeowner's Alliance HOA HOA six
Speaker 2: A champion the interest of Britain's homeowners. That's an awful
Speaker 2: lot of us and provide unbiased practical advice. Before this,
Speaker 2: she spent many years working as a civil silver we
Speaker 2: might like to hear a bit about that too, and
Speaker 2: led the previous government's review into building control. Paula, thank
Speaker 2: you so much for joining us.
Speaker 1: Lovely to be here.
Speaker 2: Okay, right, we've got quite a lot to get through here.
Speaker 2: So first, can I just ask you a question You
Speaker 2: may not know the answer to this orthod off your head,
Speaker 2: but roughly what percentage of houses that change hands every
Speaker 2: year were sold every year a new build and what
Speaker 2: are secondhand?
Speaker 1: There's about a million transactions a year, and I'm not sure.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're sort of running about, you know, we're
Speaker 1: not meeting the targets for building new build, but there's
Speaker 1: generally about forty thousand, if we're talking about flats in particular,
Speaker 1: forty thousand new build flats going on the market every year.
Speaker 1: But it's the new build is a very small percentage
Speaker 1: of the overall housing market.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I targeted three fifty year or the
Speaker 2: current target is three fifty a year, right.
Speaker 1: That's going to be pretty impossible to make, so hats
Speaker 1: after them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I understand that this year we're already running
Speaker 2: behind last year, so we're not going to make that,
Speaker 2: but none of less. So, so there are a lot
Speaker 2: of people out there buying new builds every year. And
Speaker 2: the statistic that always s turns out to me when
Speaker 2: I look at this This is a study from a
Speaker 2: couple of years back suggested that you're buying you build,
Speaker 2: you walked through the door, and it's instantly worth around
Speaker 2: fifteen sixteen percent less than it was before you walk
Speaker 2: through the door. So if we're looking at old versus new,
Speaker 2: I would have thought the first thing to look at
Speaker 2: is if you're only staying there for a short time.
Speaker 2: If you're looking at buying a house to stay and
Speaker 2: only for a couple of years, you've got a big
Speaker 2: hill to climb or other. The market has a big
Speaker 2: hill to climb to get you even evens with that depreciation,
Speaker 2: plus the costs of purchase your stamp duty, and you
Speaker 2: know your various fees for surveyors, et cetera, which you've
Speaker 2: talked about before, So that seems to me to be
Speaker 2: the immediate thing.
Speaker 1: It is. It's a big hurdle. So we always say,
Speaker 1: if you are buying you build, you might want to
Speaker 1: think about staying there for five years. But that said,
Speaker 1: you can also offset that new build premium by asking
Speaker 1: for lots of extras. So you will have developers who
Speaker 1: will pay for your stamp duty, who will you know,
Speaker 1: upgrade you know, sort of flooring, sort of fittings, that
Speaker 1: sort of thing. So they like to keep the price
Speaker 1: of the new build high. But actually, if you can
Speaker 1: get all these extra bits and pieces in there, you
Speaker 1: might be okay. And the other thing we'd say is
Speaker 1: that actually, if you want this sort of new build
Speaker 1: lifestyle living is that look at resale. So you know,
Speaker 1: if you're finding the property is a couple of years old,
Speaker 1: then you might be in for a bargain. Really, so
Speaker 1: you're not paying that new build premium, so.
Speaker 2: My second hand new build.
Speaker 1: Exactly because the warranties will still be there, so you know,
Speaker 1: you'll still have the ten year warranty. So it can
Speaker 1: be you know, a good way to if you want
Speaker 1: that sort of no hassle free lifestyle you want to
Speaker 1: move in, you don't have the time to do things up,
Speaker 1: you don't have the inclination to do that, it might
Speaker 1: be a good, good move.
Speaker 2: So it just took me through. You mean when you
Speaker 2: say new build lifestyle, well new bill.
Speaker 1: So you know, we know that younger homeowners generally like
Speaker 1: the idea of a new build. Maybe that's because they're
Speaker 1: a bit inexperienced, but actually there's a really real benefits
Speaker 1: of people liking to buy new bills, so the energy
Speaker 1: efficiency will better lower costs. The fact that you can
Speaker 1: move in, you can put a stamp on your own,
Speaker 1: you can sort of develop it how you want, so
Speaker 1: that there is some benefits of that. When you're buying
Speaker 1: something old, you know, you don't know what the costs
Speaker 1: are going to be. You know you might need to
Speaker 1: replace the roof, but so you've really got to look at,
Speaker 1: you know, the sort of the whole picture of it.
Speaker 1: But I would say with new build and what people
Speaker 1: really need to be aware of, it's not just the
Speaker 1: structure of the property, whether it's a flat or a house,
Speaker 1: it's that you've got to look at the charges really
Speaker 1: carefully because they're estimating these charges, and we know they're
Speaker 1: unestimating them. So if you're buying a leasehold property and
Speaker 1: they're saying service charges will be x a year, that
Speaker 1: can increase massively. And particularly if you're buying on a
Speaker 1: new build a state, there's something called estate charges. A
Speaker 1: lot of these states aren't being adopted by the local authorities,
Speaker 1: so if you're living in an existing area, you're not
Speaker 1: paying for that playground. But if you're living in a
Speaker 1: new build a state, you might be, and these charges
Speaker 1: are uncapped and you can't control them.
Speaker 2: Okay, Hell, let me take you back a bit there.
Speaker 2: When you say not adopted by the local council, you
Speaker 2: mean to these biggest states that you see going up
Speaker 2: around the place. They have roads in them, they have
Speaker 2: some park maybe as you say, a playground, they need
Speaker 2: the rubbish collected, all that kind of thing. If they're
Speaker 2: not adopted by the local council, I then not pulled
Speaker 2: into the public services system, all that upkeep and those
Speaker 2: services have to be paid for external to the council
Speaker 2: or not.
Speaker 1: Not that you still be paying the council tax, so
Speaker 1: you still get your bins collected and that sort of thing,
Speaker 1: and you might get you know, sort of basic services.
Speaker 1: But if you've got like a playground on that new
Speaker 1: bill distinct, you're probably paying for that in some cases
Speaker 1: the lighting on that. And then we're really worried because
Speaker 1: we're seeing that actually maybe the quality is not that good.
Speaker 1: So it might be fine for the first few years,
Speaker 1: but when you go to sell that next buyer the conveyance,
Speaker 1: you will be saying, well, what are these charges for?
Speaker 1: And we also know that even if you're not happy
Speaker 1: with the management it. You can't change your manager. So
Speaker 1: at least if you're buying a lease whole property and
Speaker 1: you're not happy with the managing agent, you can. You've
Speaker 1: got the right to manage and to share a freehold.
Speaker 1: But if you're on these are called estate charges. We've
Speaker 1: got lots of advice in our site.
Speaker 2: But who manages the estate? So when you say in
Speaker 2: a book of flats you have a managing agent and
Speaker 2: you have some degree of power, particularly if you own
Speaker 2: a share of freehold or a common hold, you have
Speaker 2: some degree of power to go after them. But let's
Speaker 2: say you buy a house on an estate that was
Speaker 2: built by Barrett Homes or Percimon whatever. Do they continue
Speaker 2: to manage that estate or does that become disas.
Speaker 1: Do they sell it? They sell it to somebody else
Speaker 1: who will manage that estate, and you have, you know,
Speaker 1: you've got very weak controls over it. That said, the
Speaker 1: government is looking to do something about this, and they
Speaker 1: are consulting on this later in the year. But you
Speaker 1: know what will happen with the existing estates now and
Speaker 1: we are campaigning for adoption of all new build estates
Speaker 1: going forward.
Speaker 2: John is looking absolutely horrified. We've never heard of estate
Speaker 2: management charges.
Speaker 3: No, I just want to interupt, as the talking idiot
Speaker 3: on the podcast here, it's so you're telling me that
Speaker 3: you can go in buy a new home and what
Speaker 3: you're basically saying up for is an uncapped liability in
Speaker 3: timsy and your service course. That's just accitable. Why why
Speaker 3: would you ever do that? Why would you say, yes,
Speaker 3: I am definitely going to pay this and your fee.
Speaker 2: Okase you don't understand compounding and you don't understand the
Speaker 2: nature of the present value of an uncapped liability.
Speaker 1: And I would say, also, you're being sold the dream.
Speaker 1: So you're buying a new build, and if you if
Speaker 1: you're going with the solicitors or the conveyancers that are
Speaker 1: recommended by the new build developers, you might not be
Speaker 1: told this. And what they can say is they'll they'll
Speaker 1: just say, oh, there's a little bit of money, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe a couple hundred pounds of years for upkeep of
Speaker 1: the you know, the common grass or whatever. But this
Speaker 1: can increase and you don't have you can't say, it's
Speaker 1: very hard to get to change that managing agent. And
Speaker 1: with leaseholed properties you can go to the first property tribunal.
Speaker 1: There's no such mechanism with these estate charges, which is
Speaker 1: why I think it is like the big scandal. It's
Speaker 1: called fleecehold. So look it up, shuere But I just
Speaker 1: I guess.
Speaker 3: I mean I was a weird the world issues. I
Speaker 3: just hadn't a pre season bad. I mean, this is
Speaker 3: like we're getting on neckers on the twist over like
Speaker 3: PPI for Carls at the moment. This is so much
Speaker 3: was this is life ruining. Oh sorry, but anyway.
Speaker 2: Well John as well, if you if you're going to
Speaker 2: go and look at some of the big flats in London,
Speaker 2: those big new leasehold states where you see, you know,
Speaker 2: a couple of big blocks of luxury flats going up
Speaker 2: in central London, and then they had that land around
Speaker 2: them which is not adopted by the council and has
Speaker 2: to be kept up to a relatively high standard. And
Speaker 2: you know, your general public of walking through it and
Speaker 2: stopping here and stopping there, and you're effectively paying for
Speaker 2: a public park in central London. I mean it's extraordinary, right, Sorry, Paula,
Speaker 2: I'm taking over back to you.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 1: No, and I can say that happened in I think
Speaker 1: it was Devin, a Dorset where they actually were paying
Speaker 1: for a big country park next door. So and the
Speaker 1: council tried to help. They tried to step in and say, look,
Speaker 1: we will take over the management of it, but we'll
Speaker 1: charge you for it. And then they were stopped because
Speaker 1: they couldn't treat some of their you know, their constituents
Speaker 1: or their you know, the people are living there differently
Speaker 1: from others. But the people there were delighted because then
Speaker 1: the charges were a bit more reasonable. So it is
Speaker 1: a real problem, and it's something that I think it
Speaker 1: will become, you know, bigger and bigger in the future,
Speaker 1: especially as these new build estates. As people are starting
Speaker 1: to sell, they might find that they find a fewer
Speaker 1: buyers to be able to buy that.
Speaker 3: I'm just so amazing.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The other thing I would say is to be
Speaker 1: aware of it is that if you're buying a leasehold
Speaker 1: property today, and you build a leasehold property today, the
Speaker 1: government is also committed to bringing common hold so that
Speaker 1: will be sort of in a few years time, you'll
Speaker 1: only be able to buy new common hold properties, which
Speaker 1: is a generally good thing. There's more control, you won't
Speaker 1: have service charges, you have budgets. But if you're buying
Speaker 1: a lease hold property today a flat in a few
Speaker 1: years timing, you might be competing with those common hold properties,
Speaker 1: so you might need to think about switching to a
Speaker 1: common hold or you might need to price in that differential.
Speaker 1: So that's another thing to think about if you are
Speaker 1: looking to buy a new build flat today.
Speaker 2: Okay, interesting, Now I'm trying to think of upsides to
Speaker 2: buying your I've.
Speaker 1: Got an upside so far.
Speaker 2: We've got as far as maybe they'll chuck in the carpets,
Speaker 2: which isn't really doing it for me. But the biggest
Speaker 2: one I can think of is well, you could say,
Speaker 2: well maybe you can get help to buy, or you
Speaker 2: can get shared owner shit, but we've been through those.
Speaker 2: Don't touch them with a bodge pole listener. So here's
Speaker 2: the only other thing I can think of. No chain,
Speaker 2: No chain, You buy direct from whoever's going to rip
Speaker 2: you off at the house builders, and you get to
Speaker 2: move in right away and it's not going to collapse.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's true. But if you are buying with a mortgage,
Speaker 1: you might you want to make sure that that delivers
Speaker 1: on time. But I can give you another upside of
Speaker 1: buying new build. So if it's the energy Performance Certificate
Speaker 1: of A or B. You can get a green mortgage.
Speaker 1: You can get lower mortgage rates. So the best mortgage
Speaker 1: actually at the moment now is Barkleys, which is under
Speaker 1: four percent, and you can get cash backs. So there's
Speaker 1: another upside that you might get a mortgage better mortgage
Speaker 1: rate if you're buying a new build. But it is
Speaker 1: true that if you're you know, there's no chains involved,
Speaker 1: which is brilliant, but you know, it's very difficult for
Speaker 1: somebody who's trying to buy and you build, who's relying
Speaker 1: on a mortgage, which is most of us of course,
Speaker 1: if it's more than six months in advance, because that
Speaker 1: mortgage offer will run out and you could be stuck
Speaker 1: between a really difficult position if you can't renew that
Speaker 1: offer or get another mortgage offer.
Speaker 2: Paula, I think that was an excellent effort with the
Speaker 2: cheaper mortgage, and I'm I get it well done, my belt,
Speaker 2: Why would you not just buy one that was a
Speaker 2: couple of years older, save the save the fifteen sixteen
Speaker 2: percent and you build premium and take an ordinary mortgage.
Speaker 2: I mean, if we're after the cheapest option here stuff
Speaker 2: the green mortgage, mortgage get the lower price.
Speaker 1: Yes, no, I would agree. And the good thing is
Speaker 1: if you're buying something a few years older, you know
Speaker 1: you'll you'll see you know what you're getting. Because a
Speaker 1: lot of people, if they're buying and you build, they
Speaker 1: get they get sort of sucked into the dream. And
Speaker 1: and we've seen you build estates have been promised schools
Speaker 1: or GP surgeries or a high street and they don't materialize.
Speaker 1: And that is really difficult to sow because you're here
Speaker 1: just based on marketing brochures. What we always say if
Speaker 1: you're buying something you build, is make sure you get
Speaker 1: absolutely everything in writing, so you've got some way of
Speaker 1: coming back. If you've been promised car parking spots, it's
Speaker 1: a cul de sac, whatever it is, make sure you
Speaker 1: get everything in writing.
Speaker 2: It seems to me that one of the things that
Speaker 2: we're really talking about here is the sense of community.
Speaker 2: So if you buy an old house, and particularly if
Speaker 2: you buy one in a in a town or village outskirts,
Speaker 2: so if you can already see what the community is
Speaker 2: going to be like, so you can know if you've
Speaker 2: got a pub, you've got a shop, what kind of
Speaker 2: other people live in the area, etc. You get some
Speaker 2: sense of how you're going to live when you buy
Speaker 2: an older house, whereas when you buy a new house,
Speaker 2: as you say, you're buying a brochure, not a reality
Speaker 2: or not a community.
Speaker 1: That's true, and it's it's very hard to price that
Speaker 1: in so you don't know what it's going to be like.
Speaker 1: You've got no comparables. So if you're buying an older property,
Speaker 1: you can look on land registry and see what other
Speaker 1: people are paying for it. You could see if you
Speaker 1: could do it up, put an extension in a loft conversion,
Speaker 1: you can add value to it. But if you're buying
Speaker 1: into a completely new development, there's no comparables to see
Speaker 1: is that going to increase? And that's where you really
Speaker 1: need to do your research properly. Not all developers are
Speaker 1: the same, you know, you want to see that the
Speaker 1: developers that maybe hold their resale value. There's a lot
Speaker 1: to think about.
Speaker 3: Actually, was something I wanted to ask about, is you
Speaker 3: know this ten years guarantee that you get with a
Speaker 3: new built home, Because in my experience, everything to do
Speaker 3: with property is the most caveat emptor thing you will
Speaker 3: ever buy in your life, and there is no comeback.
Speaker 3: Or in anything at all, So I'm just want to done.
Speaker 3: That is the guarantee actually both very much.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's really limited. So the first two years,
Speaker 1: you know, the developers should have, you know, do the
Speaker 1: snags and things like that. And that's why we always
Speaker 1: say make sure you get a snagging survey. Diorize that
Speaker 1: two your points, because if you don't get anything fixed
Speaker 1: before then you might be a bit stuffed because between
Speaker 1: years two and ten it's structural. So it's really structural stuff,
Speaker 1: and there's also ways of invalidating, so if you decide to.
Speaker 1: We have a situation somebody came to our site they
Speaker 1: changed the radiators. You know, a young couple bought a
Speaker 1: new bill. They just wanted to sort of have nicer radiators.
Speaker 1: They invalidated that warranty when they found out the boiler
Speaker 1: and there's problems with that. So it is really tricky.
Speaker 1: So I would say again, you know, make sure you
Speaker 1: know you now can get pre completion inspections. And it
Speaker 1: seems a bit odd that you're buying something you don't
Speaker 1: expect to get a mechanic to buy a new car
Speaker 1: to look over it, but in this case we probably
Speaker 1: did it's not all the same, so it is a
Speaker 1: bit bonkers.
Speaker 2: God, there's so many reasons to loathe house builders. It's insane.
Speaker 2: Isn't The other thing that I worry about with new
Speaker 2: bills it's the size of the rooms. And when you
Speaker 2: look at houses built even up until the fifties, sixties,
Speaker 2: and particularly even council housing for example, built in the
Speaker 2: nineteen thirties, the rooms are big and spaceous in light,
Speaker 2: et cetera. But when you look at the floor plans
Speaker 2: of new built you often see really very small floor space,
Speaker 2: small small rooms, and that seems to me to be
Speaker 2: something of a concern.
Speaker 1: Yeah. No, and they even do things like put in
Speaker 1: tiny furniture, or they might not have wardrobes in there.
Speaker 1: You don't have built in wardrobes. And one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why, because they're building for profits. So and we
Speaker 1: we market our rooms our houses on based on number
Speaker 1: of rooms in most other countries of European countries is
Speaker 1: square footage. So then you could be able to compare
Speaker 1: you know, a two bed Victorian flat to which might
Speaker 1: be the same space as a you know, a small
Speaker 1: three bed house, So I think it is. And that's
Speaker 1: where you know, you want more information and we're really
Speaker 1: much wanting as much information on If you're looking at
Speaker 1: right Movements Zoo in the property portals, they are actually
Speaker 1: we did some research earlier this year they're actually doing
Speaker 1: more on that. So you can look at the floor plans,
Speaker 1: you can look at the square footage and do the
Speaker 1: sums yourself. What's the price per square footage you're paying for?
Speaker 1: This slightly takes us.
Speaker 2: Back to use a buying agent who knows all this stuff,
Speaker 2: not back to we haven't we haven't done that episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because in other countries you buying agents and estate agents,
Speaker 1: you know they're working on behalf of the seller. The
Speaker 1: buyers aren't aware of that. But you know, with the
Speaker 1: affordability so stretched, buying agents seem to be for the
Speaker 1: rich and the time pouring cash rich. But yeah, no,
Speaker 1: and that's why with our site, that's what we try
Speaker 1: to do. We try to empower people, get them to
Speaker 1: ask the right questions, you know, making the right choices
Speaker 1: and avoid the pitfalls of others.
Speaker 3: Don't know if Paula, if you would want to discuss this,
Speaker 3: but obviously you have been within nothing distances the levels
Speaker 3: of power in the government and I don't know if
Speaker 3: there's anything from that experience that you would want to see,
Speaker 3: like how we've ended up here if.
Speaker 1: You like, yeah, I mean it's it's interesting because that's
Speaker 1: why I set up Homeowners' Alliance actually, because I was
Speaker 1: working in government and housing and I was being approached
Speaker 1: by you know, some big developers saying, oh, we don't
Speaker 1: need to do inspections. You know, consumers don't want to,
Speaker 1: you know, they want to save money. And I couldn't
Speaker 1: get a voice of the homeowner. I couldn't go out
Speaker 1: and ask people say, do you really want, like you know,
Speaker 1: something to come and inspect the work that you're builder's
Speaker 1: doing or whatever. So, and that's why I felt there
Speaker 1: wasn't a voice for the homener and those aspire to own.
Speaker 1: So we're not just a homeowning club. We're very keen
Speaker 1: on you know, helping as many people get onto the
Speaker 1: property ladder. And that's why I set up as to
Speaker 1: be this voice. When we first started the first sources
Speaker 1: of complaints to our site, it was on new build
Speaker 1: estate agents and leasehold and it still is the case
Speaker 1: that they come to us because they've got nowhere else
Speaker 1: to go. So that's why we're here, that's why we exist.
Speaker 2: Okay, thank you. Well, I think we've some that up
Speaker 2: pretty well. I'm going to try and sum up the
Speaker 2: positives of buying a new build.
Speaker 1: Okay, here we go.
Speaker 2: Energy efficiency, modern design, be that a good thing or
Speaker 2: a bad thing, a warranty that may or may not last,
Speaker 2: common spaces that may or may not long term destroy.
Speaker 1: The value of your house.
Speaker 2: And finally, no change, no change, and possibly free carpets.
Speaker 2: So that's new built plus points of older houses. You
Speaker 2: know what you're getting. You might get some character, bigger
Speaker 2: floor plans, you might get a bigger garden, and it
Speaker 2: might even have some plants in it. That seems like
Speaker 2: a good thing, and you won't lose quite so much
Speaker 2: money quite so fast, depending on where the market goes.
Speaker 2: Is that fair? Is that going to cover it?
Speaker 1: That covers it? I guess. The only thing with older
Speaker 1: builds is that you know, you might have lots of
Speaker 1: maintenance costs. I live in an older property and I'm
Speaker 1: always shocked at how much things cost when I'm having
Speaker 1: to do things up. Yeah, but you can also add
Speaker 1: value with older bills. You can you can increase the
Speaker 1: value easily.
Speaker 2: Okay, So I will just say one last thing, which
Speaker 2: is that we do live in an older house and
Speaker 2: when we moved in, here's back to your cost of maintenance.
Speaker 2: The bathroom ceiling fell down in the kitchen, so you
Speaker 2: know it's not all upside. Paula, thanks so much for
Speaker 2: joining us and bringing our expertise to the show.
Speaker 3: We really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: That's been good fun. Thank you.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening this week's Merren Talk to Your Money.
Speaker 2: If you like us show, rate, review, and subscribe wherever
Speaker 2: you listen to podcasts. Also be sure to follow me
Speaker 2: in John on ex or Twitter at Marinus w and
Speaker 2: John Underscore Stepic. This episode was produced by Summerside and
Speaker 2: Moses Andam sound designed by Blake Maple's Special thanks, of
Speaker 2: course to Paula Higgins. Questions and comments on this show
Speaker 2: and all our shows are always welcome. Our show email
Speaker 2: is Meren Money at Bloomberg dot net.