1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:21,556 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Slight Change Listeners. We're back with a new 2 00:00:21,596 --> 00:00:24,236 Speaker 1: episode of A Slight Change of Plans next week, but 3 00:00:24,316 --> 00:00:26,596 Speaker 1: today I wanted to share a conversation I had on 4 00:00:26,636 --> 00:00:30,916 Speaker 1: the show how Too from Slate. Each week, on How To, 5 00:00:30,956 --> 00:00:34,996 Speaker 1: co host Amanda Ripley and Carvel Wallace tackle listener's toughest 6 00:00:35,036 --> 00:00:38,116 Speaker 1: questions with the help of experts. I was a guest 7 00:00:38,156 --> 00:00:40,716 Speaker 1: on the recent episode called hat A Stick to Your 8 00:00:40,756 --> 00:00:44,556 Speaker 1: New Year's Resolutions. We talked to Emily, a former college 9 00:00:44,556 --> 00:00:48,116 Speaker 1: athlete and new mom who's been struggling with unhealthy eating 10 00:00:48,236 --> 00:00:51,436 Speaker 1: and lack of exercise. We explored why so many of 11 00:00:51,516 --> 00:00:53,916 Speaker 1: us tend to fall off the wagon when reaching our goals, 12 00:00:54,236 --> 00:00:57,116 Speaker 1: and I share science based strategies with her for staying 13 00:00:57,116 --> 00:01:00,196 Speaker 1: on track. You can find how To wherever you listen 14 00:01:00,236 --> 00:01:03,596 Speaker 1: to podcasts. I hope you find this episode helpful as 15 00:01:03,596 --> 00:01:06,836 Speaker 1: you try to keep your resolutions this year. Join me 16 00:01:06,916 --> 00:01:09,716 Speaker 1: next week when I talked to science journalists Flora Williams 17 00:01:09,716 --> 00:01:12,676 Speaker 1: about the unraveling of her twenty five year marriage and 18 00:01:12,716 --> 00:01:16,036 Speaker 1: what we can learn from the science of heartbreak. Okay, 19 00:01:16,436 --> 00:01:19,956 Speaker 1: now onto my conversation with Emily. If you picture like 20 00:01:19,996 --> 00:01:21,996 Speaker 1: whenever you were like a little kid, and you're like, 21 00:01:22,036 --> 00:01:24,076 Speaker 1: whenever I grow up, I'm going to eat whatever I want. 22 00:01:24,596 --> 00:01:26,876 Speaker 1: That's what I'm doing right now. I'm living out every 23 00:01:26,956 --> 00:01:29,636 Speaker 1: kid's fantasy and I'm just eating whatever I want all 24 00:01:29,636 --> 00:01:33,476 Speaker 1: the time. You're to live in the dream. Dream There. 25 00:01:34,836 --> 00:01:39,156 Speaker 1: Welcome to how To. I'm Amanda Ripley. We're now about 26 00:01:39,196 --> 00:01:42,996 Speaker 1: two weeks into twenty twenty three, which means those resolutions 27 00:01:43,036 --> 00:01:46,236 Speaker 1: that you made on January first might be slipping out 28 00:01:46,236 --> 00:01:49,796 Speaker 1: of your grasp. If so, that just means you are 29 00:01:49,836 --> 00:01:55,996 Speaker 1: extremely normal. People don't achieve their New Year's resolutions, which 30 00:01:56,036 --> 00:01:58,796 Speaker 1: probably means we're doing it wrong. So today we're going 31 00:01:58,836 --> 00:02:00,876 Speaker 1: to talk about what it would look like if we 32 00:02:00,956 --> 00:02:04,316 Speaker 1: tried to build healthier habits based on what works for 33 00:02:04,396 --> 00:02:09,036 Speaker 1: actual humans according to decades of research. Starting with our listener, 34 00:02:09,396 --> 00:02:14,156 Speaker 1: whom we're calling Emily. I've had this issue for a 35 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:16,556 Speaker 1: while now, but I guess it's just really starting to 36 00:02:16,636 --> 00:02:19,196 Speaker 1: like hit me in the face that I really it's 37 00:02:19,236 --> 00:02:25,956 Speaker 1: something that I need to fix. I love sugar and carbs, 38 00:02:26,036 --> 00:02:28,796 Speaker 1: and I think that makes up maybe eighty to ninety 39 00:02:28,876 --> 00:02:33,956 Speaker 1: percent of my diet, and I'll just snack all day 40 00:02:33,996 --> 00:02:37,036 Speaker 1: every day and I think like whenever I was in college, 41 00:02:37,076 --> 00:02:38,916 Speaker 1: I was a student athlete, and so I was like 42 00:02:39,116 --> 00:02:41,356 Speaker 1: constantly hungry. So I was constantly eating, and it never 43 00:02:41,396 --> 00:02:43,996 Speaker 1: mattered because I was just working it all off. But 44 00:02:44,116 --> 00:02:46,636 Speaker 1: I was like still trying to eat more or less. Right, 45 00:02:47,356 --> 00:02:50,756 Speaker 1: But then whenever I graduated and was no longer student athlete, 46 00:02:50,796 --> 00:02:54,316 Speaker 1: I think my diet slowly shifted from like average to 47 00:02:54,476 --> 00:02:58,156 Speaker 1: like really really really bad. As a college volleyball player, 48 00:02:58,196 --> 00:03:01,516 Speaker 1: Emily used to spend six to seven hours at the 49 00:03:01,596 --> 00:03:06,756 Speaker 1: gym every day. She stayed active coaching after that, but now, 50 00:03:06,876 --> 00:03:09,316 Speaker 1: for the first time in her life, she's on the 51 00:03:09,316 --> 00:03:13,756 Speaker 1: sidelines and her day to day looks really different. Emily 52 00:03:13,836 --> 00:03:16,716 Speaker 1: works at a bank. She recently got married. She now 53 00:03:16,756 --> 00:03:19,796 Speaker 1: has a thirteen year old step son and a new baby. 54 00:03:20,076 --> 00:03:25,316 Speaker 1: Whenever I got pregnant, if I wasn't actively eating, then 55 00:03:25,356 --> 00:03:28,156 Speaker 1: I felt like nauseous, and so I just all day 56 00:03:28,196 --> 00:03:31,316 Speaker 1: every day it would just like snack constantly, and then 57 00:03:31,356 --> 00:03:35,436 Speaker 1: I just never quit that habit. And also, like my 58 00:03:35,556 --> 00:03:37,836 Speaker 1: youngest son, he'll try to eat whatever I'm eating, and 59 00:03:37,876 --> 00:03:39,756 Speaker 1: so if I'm sitting there eating a cookie and I'm 60 00:03:39,796 --> 00:03:43,036 Speaker 1: trying to feed him like organic sweet potatoes and he 61 00:03:43,076 --> 00:03:44,876 Speaker 1: was like, I actually, no, I'll talk of what you're having. 62 00:03:46,276 --> 00:03:49,036 Speaker 1: So you had a huge amount of life transition in 63 00:03:49,036 --> 00:03:53,756 Speaker 1: the last couple of years, and also this huge part 64 00:03:53,756 --> 00:03:57,196 Speaker 1: of your identity in life of sports has diminished. Are 65 00:03:57,196 --> 00:03:59,636 Speaker 1: you able to work out with everything you have going 66 00:03:59,676 --> 00:04:01,796 Speaker 1: on now? Or where is exercise and all of this. 67 00:04:02,636 --> 00:04:07,396 Speaker 1: Actually this past week I had a really stressful day 68 00:04:07,556 --> 00:04:09,756 Speaker 1: and it was like eleven o'clock a knife, and I 69 00:04:09,796 --> 00:04:12,876 Speaker 1: was like in my head and I was like, I 70 00:04:12,916 --> 00:04:14,636 Speaker 1: can't go to bed like this, and so I told 71 00:04:14,636 --> 00:04:16,596 Speaker 1: my husband, I'm going to go for a run. So 72 00:04:16,636 --> 00:04:18,356 Speaker 1: I went to the gym, got on the treadmill, and 73 00:04:18,356 --> 00:04:21,116 Speaker 1: I realized that I can't. I'm so out of shape 74 00:04:21,116 --> 00:04:23,076 Speaker 1: and I could not, like I could not even run 75 00:04:23,116 --> 00:04:27,636 Speaker 1: a mile. How did that feel? It was pretty devastating 76 00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:32,876 Speaker 1: because my whole life that had been my coping mechanism. 77 00:04:32,876 --> 00:04:37,116 Speaker 1: If I was like stressed or anything, I could just 78 00:04:37,236 --> 00:04:39,796 Speaker 1: go for a run and feel better. And then for 79 00:04:39,876 --> 00:04:42,276 Speaker 1: a vast majority of my life that's been my identity. 80 00:04:42,356 --> 00:04:45,156 Speaker 1: Like I was, I've been an athlete my whole life, 81 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:49,956 Speaker 1: and then now I can't even run a mile. Emily 82 00:04:49,996 --> 00:04:53,076 Speaker 1: clearly has the muscle memory to dig deep and be 83 00:04:53,196 --> 00:04:56,476 Speaker 1: disciplined and do hard things, but when it comes to 84 00:04:56,516 --> 00:04:59,916 Speaker 1: her eating habits, she feels like she keeps coming up short. 85 00:05:00,476 --> 00:05:03,196 Speaker 1: For instance, a while back, she tried the Whole thirty diet, 86 00:05:03,476 --> 00:05:07,476 Speaker 1: which requires thirty days of eating whole, unprocessed foods with 87 00:05:07,516 --> 00:05:11,316 Speaker 1: no sugar, grains or dairy. I completed the whole thirty, 88 00:05:11,356 --> 00:05:14,316 Speaker 1: So I went the whole thirty days without like all 89 00:05:14,356 --> 00:05:17,236 Speaker 1: those things. But then two weeks later and I was 90 00:05:17,316 --> 00:05:20,836 Speaker 1: like right back into what I was doing. And I've tried, like, Okay, 91 00:05:20,836 --> 00:05:23,476 Speaker 1: maybe I'll just have a cheat day, and so I'll 92 00:05:23,476 --> 00:05:26,996 Speaker 1: like eat good all week and then on Saturday spurge. 93 00:05:27,236 --> 00:05:31,036 Speaker 1: And then it ended up becoming Saturday and Sunday and 94 00:05:31,076 --> 00:05:33,676 Speaker 1: then Friday, Saturday and Sunday, to the point where like 95 00:05:33,756 --> 00:05:35,596 Speaker 1: Tuesday was my only day that I ate good and 96 00:05:35,636 --> 00:05:41,076 Speaker 1: every other day was my cheat day. And yeah, it's 97 00:05:41,116 --> 00:05:43,236 Speaker 1: sort of good. It's gonna be annoying because I'm like 98 00:05:43,316 --> 00:05:46,396 Speaker 1: questioning the whole premise, But are we sure that this 99 00:05:46,476 --> 00:05:48,556 Speaker 1: is bad? I get what you're saying about being a 100 00:05:48,636 --> 00:05:50,876 Speaker 1: role model. I get what you're saying that you just 101 00:05:50,956 --> 00:05:52,956 Speaker 1: kind of feel out of control and that's not a 102 00:05:52,996 --> 00:05:56,476 Speaker 1: good feeling. Have you talked to a doctor about this? 103 00:05:56,636 --> 00:05:58,236 Speaker 1: I mean, are you sure that this is something you 104 00:05:58,236 --> 00:06:03,836 Speaker 1: should be worrying about at all? I'm pretty sure if 105 00:06:03,876 --> 00:06:05,916 Speaker 1: I could show you, like what I eat in a week, 106 00:06:06,116 --> 00:06:09,756 Speaker 1: you'd be like, where's the vegetables, where's the Like it's 107 00:06:09,756 --> 00:06:14,756 Speaker 1: almost entirely I'm not exaggerating, it's almost entirely sugar in carbs. 108 00:06:14,876 --> 00:06:18,596 Speaker 1: And I do feel that like tired all the time, 109 00:06:18,796 --> 00:06:23,716 Speaker 1: like a little like afternoon pitfall. And at first I 110 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:26,116 Speaker 1: was like, Oh, it's just because I'm not sleeping because 111 00:06:26,116 --> 00:06:28,276 Speaker 1: of my son. But now my son's been sleeping through 112 00:06:28,316 --> 00:06:31,236 Speaker 1: the night for six months now, and so it's not 113 00:06:31,316 --> 00:06:34,596 Speaker 1: really the excuse I can use anymore. Okay, So it 114 00:06:34,636 --> 00:06:37,836 Speaker 1: sounds like you want to change your routines, your habits 115 00:06:38,156 --> 00:06:41,836 Speaker 1: and just feel more in control of what your daily 116 00:06:41,916 --> 00:06:46,876 Speaker 1: routine is. Is that right? Yeah, that's exactly right. So 117 00:06:46,916 --> 00:06:49,516 Speaker 1: on today's show, we're going to work on building enduring 118 00:06:49,556 --> 00:06:53,236 Speaker 1: habits with someone who knows a lot about change. My 119 00:06:53,316 --> 00:06:57,356 Speaker 1: name is Maya Shunker, and I'm a cognitive scientist by training, 120 00:06:57,396 --> 00:06:59,836 Speaker 1: which means that I study the science of human behavior, 121 00:07:00,436 --> 00:07:03,596 Speaker 1: and I'm also host to the podcast a slight change 122 00:07:03,596 --> 00:07:07,076 Speaker 1: of plans which marry science and storytelling to help us 123 00:07:07,116 --> 00:07:09,236 Speaker 1: get a better understanding of how it is that we 124 00:07:09,316 --> 00:07:13,036 Speaker 1: respond to change. Maya will give us a blueprint for 125 00:07:13,116 --> 00:07:16,116 Speaker 1: how Emily and all of us can adapt to new 126 00:07:16,156 --> 00:07:20,236 Speaker 1: life phases and get into healthier routines that lasts long 127 00:07:20,276 --> 00:07:32,076 Speaker 1: after the new year. Stay with us, Maya, I wonder 128 00:07:32,156 --> 00:07:35,956 Speaker 1: what you're thinking hearing Emily's story so far. Yeah, I'm 129 00:07:35,956 --> 00:07:38,796 Speaker 1: thinking so much, Emily. And one is that your story 130 00:07:38,836 --> 00:07:42,796 Speaker 1: is so relatable. So one thing you mentioned was around 131 00:07:43,596 --> 00:07:46,556 Speaker 1: you giving yourself a cheat day and then you wake 132 00:07:46,636 --> 00:07:48,116 Speaker 1: up the next day and you're like, oh, I guess 133 00:07:48,196 --> 00:07:49,996 Speaker 1: you know Sunday is going to be a cheat day 134 00:07:50,036 --> 00:07:52,756 Speaker 1: two and then suddenly find yourself spending six days of 135 00:07:52,756 --> 00:07:56,036 Speaker 1: the week in cheat day mode. Right. And one thing 136 00:07:56,036 --> 00:07:59,356 Speaker 1: we know from research is that it's actually very helpful 137 00:07:59,356 --> 00:08:03,556 Speaker 1: at the outset to build in what's called emergency reserves. 138 00:08:04,196 --> 00:08:07,196 Speaker 1: Let's say you're deciding, Okay, I'm committing to exercising three 139 00:08:07,276 --> 00:08:09,796 Speaker 1: days a week for the next month. By building in 140 00:08:09,796 --> 00:08:13,076 Speaker 1: the slack at the beginning of the goal setting process, 141 00:08:13,956 --> 00:08:16,236 Speaker 1: when you miss a day here and there, which will 142 00:08:16,276 --> 00:08:19,636 Speaker 1: inevitably be the case, because that's just how life works, right, 143 00:08:19,916 --> 00:08:22,916 Speaker 1: You'll still feel that it's possible to achieve your longer 144 00:08:22,996 --> 00:08:25,876 Speaker 1: term goal, and so that mindset will prevent you from 145 00:08:25,876 --> 00:08:28,236 Speaker 1: falling off the wagon entirely, which is what I hear 146 00:08:28,436 --> 00:08:31,236 Speaker 1: is happening to you. Yeah, because like you said, when 147 00:08:31,356 --> 00:08:33,516 Speaker 1: you fail, then you're like, well, I'm a failure, might 148 00:08:33,556 --> 00:08:36,436 Speaker 1: as well just like give up. But it's okay if 149 00:08:36,436 --> 00:08:38,436 Speaker 1: you have a few days off and like you're still 150 00:08:38,436 --> 00:08:41,276 Speaker 1: on track. Yeah, it's still possible for you to achieve 151 00:08:41,356 --> 00:08:43,636 Speaker 1: your goal, right. I mean, in many ways, this insight 152 00:08:44,156 --> 00:08:46,636 Speaker 1: solves for the fact that we are human beings and 153 00:08:46,676 --> 00:08:49,116 Speaker 1: so naturally we're going to be fallible and we are 154 00:08:49,596 --> 00:08:52,916 Speaker 1: you not going to be perfect every single day. And 155 00:08:52,996 --> 00:08:55,916 Speaker 1: so I really love this way of thinking because it 156 00:08:55,996 --> 00:09:00,516 Speaker 1: builds a compassionate model of human behavior into the goal 157 00:09:00,556 --> 00:09:03,196 Speaker 1: setting process and then ends up setting us up for success. 158 00:09:03,956 --> 00:09:05,716 Speaker 1: And it's funny because I have heard Maya, is this 159 00:09:05,796 --> 00:09:09,796 Speaker 1: true that self control self discipline is like muscle and 160 00:09:09,836 --> 00:09:11,876 Speaker 1: you kind of use it all day long and then 161 00:09:12,676 --> 00:09:14,996 Speaker 1: at some point you kind of run out. I mean, yeah, 162 00:09:14,996 --> 00:09:22,356 Speaker 1: that's disproven. Since I'm actually glad to hear this because 163 00:09:22,356 --> 00:09:25,196 Speaker 1: I always feel like, uh see, I'm out of self control. 164 00:09:26,876 --> 00:09:29,836 Speaker 1: But I mean, it's so interesting because I think this 165 00:09:29,876 --> 00:09:31,476 Speaker 1: speaks to the fact that, you know, when we get 166 00:09:31,476 --> 00:09:34,156 Speaker 1: that surge of motivation in us to try to accomplish 167 00:09:34,196 --> 00:09:40,316 Speaker 1: a goal, we are embodying our most aspirational selves. Our 168 00:09:40,316 --> 00:09:44,476 Speaker 1: ambitions exceed what's actually reasonable and practical. And so another 169 00:09:44,516 --> 00:09:47,516 Speaker 1: piece of advice that I'd give you, Emily is try 170 00:09:47,556 --> 00:09:50,996 Speaker 1: and set goals when you're in a similar psychological and 171 00:09:51,036 --> 00:09:54,076 Speaker 1: physiological state as the one you'll be in when you're 172 00:09:54,076 --> 00:09:57,116 Speaker 1: actually striving for that goal. So, for example, if it's 173 00:09:57,676 --> 00:10:01,036 Speaker 1: four PM on a Sunday, okay, and you know you're 174 00:10:01,076 --> 00:10:05,076 Speaker 1: feeling good, you're feeling optimistic, you're feeling motivated, don't then 175 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:06,876 Speaker 1: set a goal that you plan to go to the 176 00:10:06,916 --> 00:10:10,516 Speaker 1: gym every night that we get eleven pm. Because what 177 00:10:10,596 --> 00:10:12,316 Speaker 1: you have to do when it comes to goal setting 178 00:10:12,396 --> 00:10:16,036 Speaker 1: is really bridge any empathy gaps that exist between your 179 00:10:16,076 --> 00:10:21,116 Speaker 1: current self and your future self. That is really smart. Yeah, 180 00:10:21,196 --> 00:10:23,836 Speaker 1: I feel like I could swing so far back and 181 00:10:23,876 --> 00:10:28,076 Speaker 1: forth between like my aspirations and reality. Whenever I'm like, oh, 182 00:10:28,156 --> 00:10:30,796 Speaker 1: I'm going to do this, and like make my whole 183 00:10:30,836 --> 00:10:33,756 Speaker 1: plan and everything maybe I'll be like, oh, I want 184 00:10:33,796 --> 00:10:37,076 Speaker 1: to wait until two o'clock on Monday, after your long 185 00:10:37,156 --> 00:10:39,956 Speaker 1: meeting to decide what that goal would actually look like. 186 00:10:40,276 --> 00:10:42,476 Speaker 1: And you know, you're a mom of a one year old, 187 00:10:42,476 --> 00:10:45,156 Speaker 1: a stepmom to a thirteen year old. The feeling that 188 00:10:45,196 --> 00:10:49,036 Speaker 1: you have after that two pm meeting is probably much 189 00:10:49,036 --> 00:10:52,636 Speaker 1: more representative of your normal state, right which is you're 190 00:10:52,716 --> 00:10:55,236 Speaker 1: tired and stressed and overworked, and there's a million things 191 00:10:55,316 --> 00:10:57,956 Speaker 1: racing through your mind and you're just trying to you know, 192 00:10:58,356 --> 00:11:00,116 Speaker 1: survive through the end of the day and help your 193 00:11:00,116 --> 00:11:03,116 Speaker 1: family survive. And so you want to choose these moments 194 00:11:03,116 --> 00:11:05,556 Speaker 1: that you feel are slightly more reflective of how you 195 00:11:05,636 --> 00:11:09,396 Speaker 1: are on average, rather than find these really pristine moments 196 00:11:09,396 --> 00:11:16,116 Speaker 1: of clarity and inspiration and aspiration to set those goals. Okay, 197 00:11:16,316 --> 00:11:19,276 Speaker 1: we already have a few rules right up front. One 198 00:11:19,476 --> 00:11:22,996 Speaker 1: is to build slack into your goals. Take the fantasy 199 00:11:23,196 --> 00:11:27,196 Speaker 1: and dial it down one notch at least aim for real, 200 00:11:27,596 --> 00:11:32,076 Speaker 1: not perfect. Another rule, set those goals when you're in 201 00:11:32,116 --> 00:11:35,076 Speaker 1: your right mind, like after a meeting, when you want 202 00:11:35,076 --> 00:11:37,916 Speaker 1: to take a nap, not when you're flying high after 203 00:11:37,956 --> 00:11:41,036 Speaker 1: your first cup of coffee on a weekend. It's probably 204 00:11:41,076 --> 00:11:43,516 Speaker 1: also a good time to mention that anytime we're talking 205 00:11:43,556 --> 00:11:46,956 Speaker 1: about food or exercise, the advice can't be one size 206 00:11:46,956 --> 00:11:49,596 Speaker 1: fits all. There are people for whom these kinds of 207 00:11:49,636 --> 00:11:53,476 Speaker 1: resolutions can be damaging and even lead to a disordered 208 00:11:53,476 --> 00:11:57,516 Speaker 1: relationship to food. So before you set your goals, it 209 00:11:57,596 --> 00:12:00,596 Speaker 1: might be helpful to interrogate why you want to make 210 00:12:00,636 --> 00:12:05,316 Speaker 1: a certain change one of the things, in addition to, 211 00:12:05,836 --> 00:12:09,796 Speaker 1: you know, sort of daily routines and practices and setting goals. 212 00:12:10,076 --> 00:12:11,796 Speaker 1: It sounds like one of the things that Emily is 213 00:12:11,836 --> 00:12:16,036 Speaker 1: dealing with is a shift in identity, and that reminds 214 00:12:16,076 --> 00:12:18,316 Speaker 1: me a lot of your show. In your own story, 215 00:12:19,036 --> 00:12:20,996 Speaker 1: can you speak a little bit to how you know 216 00:12:21,156 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 1: you go from being the sort of hard charging athlete 217 00:12:24,876 --> 00:12:27,676 Speaker 1: to a mom who's working full time. I mean, this 218 00:12:27,756 --> 00:12:32,036 Speaker 1: is a very different set of constraints and obligations. Yeah, 219 00:12:32,036 --> 00:12:34,796 Speaker 1: And I do have a personal story that mirrors this, Emily. 220 00:12:34,876 --> 00:12:36,916 Speaker 1: So when I was a kid, I was a concert 221 00:12:36,996 --> 00:12:41,316 Speaker 1: violinist and I was absolutely aspiring to go to become 222 00:12:41,356 --> 00:12:43,996 Speaker 1: a professional, and then a hand injury derailed my career 223 00:12:43,996 --> 00:12:46,436 Speaker 1: when I was fifteen, and so I went from being 224 00:12:46,476 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 1: on this speed train where I was practicing hours a day, 225 00:12:50,116 --> 00:12:54,036 Speaker 1: spending all day Saturday at the Juilliard School of Music 226 00:12:54,036 --> 00:12:56,356 Speaker 1: in New York, and so it was really the entirety 227 00:12:56,396 --> 00:12:59,236 Speaker 1: of my life, and I fully identified as a violinist. 228 00:12:59,956 --> 00:13:03,436 Speaker 1: And it was pretty heartbreaking to lose the instrument because 229 00:13:03,436 --> 00:13:06,316 Speaker 1: I felt like I was not only grieving the loss 230 00:13:06,316 --> 00:13:08,156 Speaker 1: of the instrument in many ways, I was grieving the 231 00:13:08,196 --> 00:13:10,556 Speaker 1: loss of myself because it was such a key part 232 00:13:10,596 --> 00:13:12,676 Speaker 1: of my identity. And I hear that reflected in your 233 00:13:13,196 --> 00:13:15,916 Speaker 1: story with volleyball, right, This was such a foundational part 234 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:18,116 Speaker 1: of who you are. And so in your case, I 235 00:13:18,156 --> 00:13:21,316 Speaker 1: think it's good to remind yourself that even though you 236 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:24,796 Speaker 1: are no longer this star athlete, a d one athlete, 237 00:13:25,316 --> 00:13:28,596 Speaker 1: you clearly had some passion and ability to navigate the 238 00:13:28,676 --> 00:13:32,916 Speaker 1: harder parts of exercise and willpower and self control, and 239 00:13:33,316 --> 00:13:37,076 Speaker 1: you cultivated many relevant skills in the process. And so 240 00:13:38,236 --> 00:13:40,836 Speaker 1: remember that you still have these parts of your personality 241 00:13:41,316 --> 00:13:44,396 Speaker 1: and that they are accessible to you. I think for 242 00:13:44,436 --> 00:13:47,156 Speaker 1: me with the violin, it was actually just loving human 243 00:13:47,236 --> 00:13:50,756 Speaker 1: connection and really enjoying forging an emotional connection with the 244 00:13:50,796 --> 00:13:54,196 Speaker 1: audience and my fellow musicians. And I wonder if there 245 00:13:54,196 --> 00:13:56,156 Speaker 1: are parts of your identity as an athlete that you 246 00:13:56,196 --> 00:14:00,036 Speaker 1: can still identify with. Does that resonate with you? Yeah? 247 00:14:00,156 --> 00:14:03,476 Speaker 1: So much. And like when you said like not associating 248 00:14:03,516 --> 00:14:06,636 Speaker 1: yourself with the things that you do like volleyball player, violinist, 249 00:14:07,036 --> 00:14:11,036 Speaker 1: and like associating with the underlying things that really hit hard. 250 00:14:11,036 --> 00:14:14,716 Speaker 1: And I like one thing I loved about being an 251 00:14:14,756 --> 00:14:18,756 Speaker 1: athlete was like the like camaraderie, like being on a 252 00:14:18,796 --> 00:14:22,116 Speaker 1: team with like a common goal. And another part was 253 00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:27,676 Speaker 1: just like being able to like conquer something like practices 254 00:14:27,716 --> 00:14:32,076 Speaker 1: were long, like games were hard, but like I was 255 00:14:32,116 --> 00:14:35,436 Speaker 1: always the one like running back and forth in between 256 00:14:36,356 --> 00:14:38,596 Speaker 1: the sets and saying like all right, you got this, 257 00:14:38,636 --> 00:14:40,396 Speaker 1: get up, let's go, we can do that. Like that 258 00:14:40,516 --> 00:14:42,356 Speaker 1: was just kind of like my role. Like I was 259 00:14:42,436 --> 00:14:44,756 Speaker 1: team captain. I was in everyone's face, like I'm the 260 00:14:44,796 --> 00:14:46,636 Speaker 1: one that you look to when we're down by three 261 00:14:46,636 --> 00:14:49,716 Speaker 1: and we have like bad rotation coming up. Like I 262 00:14:49,756 --> 00:14:51,796 Speaker 1: felt like I was the person that you look to 263 00:14:51,796 --> 00:14:54,436 Speaker 1: to get the job done. I don't really feel a 264 00:14:54,476 --> 00:14:57,716 Speaker 1: lot like that in my current life. What I'm hearing 265 00:14:57,916 --> 00:14:59,716 Speaker 1: from you, Emily is that you should probably be the 266 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:04,716 Speaker 1: one that creates a like mommy workout group, your neighborhood. Yea, 267 00:15:04,876 --> 00:15:07,436 Speaker 1: so are there other people that you can bring into 268 00:15:07,436 --> 00:15:10,236 Speaker 1: your circle and you can be the lead of the group, 269 00:15:10,716 --> 00:15:13,396 Speaker 1: motivating them and cheering them on. And I mean the 270 00:15:13,396 --> 00:15:15,716 Speaker 1: bigger point, and I think this is such an important one, 271 00:15:15,836 --> 00:15:18,676 Speaker 1: is that you've looked back at your career as a 272 00:15:19,076 --> 00:15:22,916 Speaker 1: volleyball player and you've identified the core traits that kept 273 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:25,356 Speaker 1: you motivated and kept you happy and kept you fulfilled. 274 00:15:29,556 --> 00:15:32,636 Speaker 1: Here's our next rule. As you go through different seasons 275 00:15:32,636 --> 00:15:36,116 Speaker 1: of life, try to remember what motivated you in your 276 00:15:36,156 --> 00:15:39,436 Speaker 1: past life and see if you can align your goals 277 00:15:39,436 --> 00:15:44,836 Speaker 1: with those values. The camaraderie is something that I also 278 00:15:44,916 --> 00:15:48,236 Speaker 1: really enjoy. And when I identified that, I realized there 279 00:15:48,236 --> 00:15:50,356 Speaker 1: were certain jobs that weren't a good fit for me. 280 00:15:50,436 --> 00:15:52,076 Speaker 1: For example, I used to be in research and I 281 00:15:52,156 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 1: kind of decided, oh, being alone in a laboratory setting 282 00:15:55,236 --> 00:15:57,276 Speaker 1: is probably not my cup of tea. And then I 283 00:15:57,316 --> 00:16:01,356 Speaker 1: found other areas that still intersected with my love of 284 00:16:01,396 --> 00:16:03,396 Speaker 1: cognitive science and my love of the human mind, but 285 00:16:03,436 --> 00:16:05,676 Speaker 1: that we're far more social in nature. And so it's 286 00:16:05,756 --> 00:16:10,036 Speaker 1: really like you said about channeling your understanding of your 287 00:16:10,036 --> 00:16:13,076 Speaker 1: own passions and your skill sets. And what excites you 288 00:16:13,556 --> 00:16:17,196 Speaker 1: into the goal pursuit process. Yeah. I love hearing Emily. 289 00:16:17,236 --> 00:16:20,516 Speaker 1: I love hearing you describe what it was like for 290 00:16:20,556 --> 00:16:23,036 Speaker 1: you to be on that team, And it sounds like 291 00:16:23,076 --> 00:16:25,436 Speaker 1: it was about much more than how many calories you 292 00:16:25,476 --> 00:16:27,756 Speaker 1: were able to burn and what you were able to eat. Right. 293 00:16:28,036 --> 00:16:30,236 Speaker 1: It sounds like you're the perfect person to work out 294 00:16:30,276 --> 00:16:33,676 Speaker 1: with or do any hard thing with, and so finding 295 00:16:33,716 --> 00:16:36,916 Speaker 1: that new context might not be easy. It's probably going 296 00:16:36,956 --> 00:16:39,716 Speaker 1: to take trial and error. And I'm guessing, Maya, did 297 00:16:39,756 --> 00:16:42,116 Speaker 1: you go through a period of trial and error yourself 298 00:16:42,236 --> 00:16:45,236 Speaker 1: trying to figure out how do I recreate that human connection, 299 00:16:45,356 --> 00:16:48,156 Speaker 1: that magic that I could create with the violin? How 300 00:16:48,156 --> 00:16:52,036 Speaker 1: many tries and errors did it take? So many? I mean, 301 00:16:52,036 --> 00:16:55,436 Speaker 1: it was such a nonlinear path, and I spend a 302 00:16:55,436 --> 00:17:00,196 Speaker 1: lot of time exploring myself and trying to reclaim identities 303 00:17:00,236 --> 00:17:02,796 Speaker 1: and trying to understand what current identities mean. I mean, 304 00:17:03,196 --> 00:17:05,516 Speaker 1: we explore this so much on my podcast. A slight 305 00:17:05,596 --> 00:17:09,076 Speaker 1: change of plans, but I think Emily, what you're also experiencing, 306 00:17:09,196 --> 00:17:11,356 Speaker 1: what I'm hearing from you, is that you now have 307 00:17:11,436 --> 00:17:14,196 Speaker 1: this label mother, right, and you're making sense of what 308 00:17:14,236 --> 00:17:17,076 Speaker 1: that label is and It's an identity that a lot 309 00:17:17,116 --> 00:17:19,796 Speaker 1: of people struggle with and they lose themselves in. And 310 00:17:20,516 --> 00:17:23,156 Speaker 1: I think you have to be also really compassionate with 311 00:17:23,196 --> 00:17:25,676 Speaker 1: yourself right now as you're going through this kind of transition, 312 00:17:26,476 --> 00:17:28,836 Speaker 1: and not expect to find all the solutions overnight, but 313 00:17:28,916 --> 00:17:32,236 Speaker 1: to really to be patient and to view this more 314 00:17:32,316 --> 00:17:36,436 Speaker 1: as a year of experimentation. Let's say, yeah, I really 315 00:17:36,436 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 1: love that, because once I have an idea in mind, 316 00:17:39,996 --> 00:17:42,436 Speaker 1: I want to get it done, check it off, and 317 00:17:42,476 --> 00:17:44,196 Speaker 1: move on to the next item on the list. But 318 00:17:44,276 --> 00:17:49,556 Speaker 1: like to keep that mindset of giving myself grace and 319 00:17:49,596 --> 00:17:52,676 Speaker 1: like being patient and be like, oh no, I don't 320 00:17:52,676 --> 00:17:55,476 Speaker 1: have to have everything figured out. Yeah, And it seems 321 00:17:55,516 --> 00:17:58,716 Speaker 1: I mean, given that you were I can't even believe 322 00:17:58,756 --> 00:18:02,076 Speaker 1: this working out six to seven hours a day. It 323 00:18:02,156 --> 00:18:04,676 Speaker 1: seems like you're a zero to sixty kind of gal, right, 324 00:18:04,756 --> 00:18:08,556 Speaker 1: And so I think reward yourself for incremental progress. Going 325 00:18:08,636 --> 00:18:11,036 Speaker 1: up a few flights of stairs multiple times in a row. 326 00:18:11,116 --> 00:18:13,956 Speaker 1: That counts to extending your walk by ten minutes, that 327 00:18:14,036 --> 00:18:16,316 Speaker 1: counts too. You don't want to have a purity complex 328 00:18:16,316 --> 00:18:19,116 Speaker 1: around your goals where you have an all or nothing mindset, right, 329 00:18:19,156 --> 00:18:22,556 Speaker 1: It's really important for you to reward yourself for eating 330 00:18:22,596 --> 00:18:26,756 Speaker 1: the small steps snowpun that you're taking to be more 331 00:18:26,756 --> 00:18:32,716 Speaker 1: committed to exercise and healthy eating. That's our next insight. 332 00:18:33,116 --> 00:18:36,436 Speaker 1: Incremental change is the only kind that's likely to stick, 333 00:18:36,836 --> 00:18:39,236 Speaker 1: So don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. 334 00:18:39,996 --> 00:18:41,596 Speaker 1: We're going to take a quick break, and when we 335 00:18:41,636 --> 00:18:45,476 Speaker 1: come back, Maya will explain how simply framing your resolutions 336 00:18:45,556 --> 00:18:50,436 Speaker 1: differently can dramatically increase the odds of success. Don't go anywhere. 337 00:19:03,516 --> 00:19:06,436 Speaker 1: We're back with Emily, a busy mom who squeezed us 338 00:19:06,436 --> 00:19:10,156 Speaker 1: in between work meetings and her baby's nap, and Maya Schunker, 339 00:19:10,356 --> 00:19:13,316 Speaker 1: a cognitive scientists and host of the podcast A Slight 340 00:19:13,436 --> 00:19:16,436 Speaker 1: Change of Plans. I also wanted to give you advice 341 00:19:16,436 --> 00:19:18,836 Speaker 1: on the way that you frame your goals, because there 342 00:19:18,876 --> 00:19:22,076 Speaker 1: are different ways of framing goals, and research shows that 343 00:19:22,236 --> 00:19:24,436 Speaker 1: the way we frame our goals can have very different 344 00:19:24,436 --> 00:19:27,996 Speaker 1: impacts on our motivational states. So there is what we 345 00:19:28,036 --> 00:19:31,636 Speaker 1: call an approach framing. So this would take the form 346 00:19:31,716 --> 00:19:34,876 Speaker 1: of I want to eat healthier foods, so you're actively 347 00:19:34,916 --> 00:19:38,316 Speaker 1: approaching the good thing. And then there's the avoidant framing, 348 00:19:38,716 --> 00:19:42,596 Speaker 1: I want to avoid unhealthy foods. I would play around 349 00:19:42,596 --> 00:19:44,956 Speaker 1: with these different framings and see what works best for 350 00:19:44,996 --> 00:19:47,396 Speaker 1: you in different contexts. But there is some research showing 351 00:19:47,396 --> 00:19:50,596 Speaker 1: that when we frame our goals as approach oriented, right, 352 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:52,836 Speaker 1: I want to eat healthier foods that can be much 353 00:19:52,836 --> 00:19:56,636 Speaker 1: more motivating for people and can promote endurance, and when 354 00:19:56,716 --> 00:19:59,636 Speaker 1: we are good at it, it's met with pride, whereas 355 00:19:59,676 --> 00:20:03,596 Speaker 1: avoid goals can sometimes just breed feelings of relief like 356 00:20:03,636 --> 00:20:06,596 Speaker 1: oh good, I didn't screw up right, I wasn't terrible today. 357 00:20:07,156 --> 00:20:10,396 Speaker 1: And so I'm curious to know, first of all, which 358 00:20:10,396 --> 00:20:12,556 Speaker 1: type of framing do you tend to use already, and 359 00:20:12,556 --> 00:20:14,236 Speaker 1: if is there a switch that you might be able 360 00:20:14,276 --> 00:20:17,316 Speaker 1: to make and to at least test it out. My 361 00:20:17,436 --> 00:20:19,516 Speaker 1: jaw is dropped when you said that, because it just 362 00:20:19,556 --> 00:20:21,556 Speaker 1: like hit me like a ton of bricks. I've always 363 00:20:21,596 --> 00:20:24,316 Speaker 1: framed everything like I'm not going to eat sugar, I'm 364 00:20:24,356 --> 00:20:27,116 Speaker 1: not going to eat like kids, Like oh, I actually 365 00:20:27,116 --> 00:20:29,956 Speaker 1: have to like flip the switch, like oh no, you 366 00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:32,476 Speaker 1: actually have to actively do something to achieve this goal, 367 00:20:32,556 --> 00:20:36,316 Speaker 1: not just avoid something I think will be very beneficial. Yeah, 368 00:20:36,356 --> 00:20:38,996 Speaker 1: and I'm no expert on this, but I'm guessing when 369 00:20:39,036 --> 00:20:41,196 Speaker 1: you were in a tournament as an athlete, you weren't 370 00:20:41,236 --> 00:20:44,156 Speaker 1: like most of all, we want to not lose, right, 371 00:20:44,276 --> 00:20:46,716 Speaker 1: you want to avoid losing at all costs, like you 372 00:20:46,756 --> 00:20:51,876 Speaker 1: are much more probably I'm guessing about winning. Is that right? Yes? Absolutely, 373 00:20:52,036 --> 00:20:54,196 Speaker 1: Like we had this whole like mindset thing and it's 374 00:20:54,236 --> 00:20:57,036 Speaker 1: like you don't want to think about like, oh, don't 375 00:20:57,036 --> 00:20:58,956 Speaker 1: mess up, like you want to think, oh, do good. 376 00:20:59,076 --> 00:21:03,356 Speaker 1: And so bringing that concept into the real world is 377 00:21:04,356 --> 00:21:08,516 Speaker 1: pretty profound. Yeah, there's a lot of psychology and sports 378 00:21:08,596 --> 00:21:10,556 Speaker 1: right that if you can transfer it, which I'm not 379 00:21:10,596 --> 00:21:13,116 Speaker 1: sure how easy that is to do, but that would 380 00:21:13,116 --> 00:21:16,836 Speaker 1: be really valuable here. Perhaps maya is that that is 381 00:21:16,876 --> 00:21:19,996 Speaker 1: there any research on can you transfer the thinking us 382 00:21:20,076 --> 00:21:23,356 Speaker 1: in one arena of your life, one context to another 383 00:21:23,476 --> 00:21:26,716 Speaker 1: like that? Oh? Absolutely, And especially when it comes to 384 00:21:26,756 --> 00:21:29,876 Speaker 1: the science of motivation. So I'll give you one example. 385 00:21:30,076 --> 00:21:33,156 Speaker 1: This is called the middle problem. It was discovered by 386 00:21:33,156 --> 00:21:35,716 Speaker 1: one of my friends, Isle at Fishbox. She's a professor 387 00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:39,236 Speaker 1: at the University of Chicago. And basically, when we are 388 00:21:39,276 --> 00:21:42,756 Speaker 1: trying to reach our goals, we tend to experience higher 389 00:21:42,836 --> 00:21:45,756 Speaker 1: levels of motivation at the beginning of the goal and 390 00:21:45,836 --> 00:21:48,516 Speaker 1: then at the end of the goal. So there's a 391 00:21:48,596 --> 00:21:50,836 Speaker 1: drop in motivation in the middle. This is called the 392 00:21:50,876 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 1: middle problem. And so what we should do is we 393 00:21:53,956 --> 00:21:57,316 Speaker 1: should try to keep our middles as short as possible. 394 00:21:58,116 --> 00:22:01,076 Speaker 1: So when she sets a year long goal, she's setting 395 00:22:01,116 --> 00:22:04,876 Speaker 1: herself up for, you know, a multi month middle period, right, 396 00:22:04,956 --> 00:22:08,196 Speaker 1: four months in the middle. And since we know that 397 00:22:08,236 --> 00:22:10,956 Speaker 1: motivation wage in the middle, it might be smarter for 398 00:22:10,996 --> 00:22:13,556 Speaker 1: Emily to set a weekly goal, right, and that way, 399 00:22:13,836 --> 00:22:15,796 Speaker 1: the middle is only a day or two, and so 400 00:22:15,836 --> 00:22:18,676 Speaker 1: she will see that decrease in motivation extend over a 401 00:22:18,756 --> 00:22:20,676 Speaker 1: much shorter period of time and then can kind of 402 00:22:20,716 --> 00:22:24,196 Speaker 1: reclaim that boost and motivation that happens as we're inching 403 00:22:24,236 --> 00:22:29,596 Speaker 1: towards reaching the goal for the week. So here's our 404 00:22:29,636 --> 00:22:32,756 Speaker 1: next couple of rules. Shorten the time span of your 405 00:22:32,756 --> 00:22:36,276 Speaker 1: goal to avoid that motivation dip in the middle. Try 406 00:22:36,276 --> 00:22:39,436 Speaker 1: a sprint, not a marathon. In other words, and go 407 00:22:39,636 --> 00:22:43,836 Speaker 1: towards something not away. And whatever you do, remember you 408 00:22:43,876 --> 00:22:47,836 Speaker 1: can't replace something with nothing. When they did research on 409 00:22:48,036 --> 00:22:51,516 Speaker 1: trying to motivate people to quit smoking, part of the 410 00:22:51,636 --> 00:22:55,196 Speaker 1: addiction to smoking was in the form of getting used 411 00:22:55,196 --> 00:22:58,036 Speaker 1: to taking that break after lunch and going outside and 412 00:22:58,156 --> 00:23:02,116 Speaker 1: socializing with colleagues or whatever the pattern of behavior was, 413 00:23:02,556 --> 00:23:06,236 Speaker 1: and so they found that substituting that behavior with something 414 00:23:06,236 --> 00:23:08,396 Speaker 1: else is much more effective than simply telling them to 415 00:23:08,436 --> 00:23:10,676 Speaker 1: abstain from behavior. And I think, Emily, this goes back 416 00:23:10,716 --> 00:23:12,996 Speaker 1: to something we talked about earlier. But you know, the 417 00:23:13,036 --> 00:23:15,596 Speaker 1: desire to reward yourself after a tough day is not 418 00:23:15,676 --> 00:23:17,796 Speaker 1: going anywhere right, and so you just want to try 419 00:23:17,836 --> 00:23:21,196 Speaker 1: to find alternative things that you can do to reward yourself. 420 00:23:21,316 --> 00:23:23,676 Speaker 1: Maybe it's texting with a friend who you've been out 421 00:23:23,676 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 1: of touch with. Maybe it's just looking at pictures of 422 00:23:26,716 --> 00:23:30,236 Speaker 1: your kids on your phone. Now that they're asleep you 423 00:23:30,276 --> 00:23:34,396 Speaker 1: can enjoy their more angelic faces on your phone. Maybe 424 00:23:34,396 --> 00:23:38,716 Speaker 1: it's having a moment of just deep breathing in which 425 00:23:38,716 --> 00:23:41,076 Speaker 1: you just try to find some calm internally. And so 426 00:23:41,556 --> 00:23:44,476 Speaker 1: as a homework assignment for you, I would take out 427 00:23:44,476 --> 00:23:48,516 Speaker 1: a sheet of paper and try to find five things 428 00:23:48,556 --> 00:23:52,036 Speaker 1: that make you feel joy right that aren't associated with eating, 429 00:23:52,796 --> 00:23:55,516 Speaker 1: and see if you can start subbing in some of 430 00:23:55,556 --> 00:23:59,316 Speaker 1: those activities for what we'll call like the jellybean behavior instead. 431 00:24:00,396 --> 00:24:04,236 Speaker 1: I love that, Emily, does anything immediately come to mind 432 00:24:04,596 --> 00:24:09,396 Speaker 1: that brings you joy? That's easy to do in five 433 00:24:09,396 --> 00:24:12,956 Speaker 1: minutes pretty much everything she said. I don't know if 434 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:16,596 Speaker 1: she's got cameras in my house or not, but like, 435 00:24:16,636 --> 00:24:18,636 Speaker 1: I have a friend that I'm super close with, but 436 00:24:18,676 --> 00:24:21,036 Speaker 1: she lives in Ohio, so she's so far away, and like, 437 00:24:21,116 --> 00:24:23,796 Speaker 1: any time I talk to her, it always it's really great, 438 00:24:23,836 --> 00:24:26,556 Speaker 1: and so texting her would be good. And actually, just 439 00:24:26,636 --> 00:24:28,916 Speaker 1: last night, I was flipping through photos of my kids 440 00:24:28,956 --> 00:24:32,356 Speaker 1: on my phone and that was exactly what I was doing, 441 00:24:32,396 --> 00:24:35,756 Speaker 1: and that made me happy too. Yeah, and they can 442 00:24:35,756 --> 00:24:38,916 Speaker 1: be those activities can be so nourishing and when you 443 00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 1: internalize them as oh, I'm treating myself to this therapeutic 444 00:24:42,596 --> 00:24:46,196 Speaker 1: moment right right right. And I think in our culture 445 00:24:46,236 --> 00:24:51,276 Speaker 1: at large, right definitely, sweet food is considered a reward, 446 00:24:51,956 --> 00:24:54,436 Speaker 1: a way to kind of make ourselves feel good, a 447 00:24:54,476 --> 00:24:57,196 Speaker 1: way to celebrate, a way to mourn. It's all the things. 448 00:24:57,196 --> 00:25:00,916 Speaker 1: It's vehicle for many things. I wonder, may have you 449 00:25:01,116 --> 00:25:03,596 Speaker 1: had any experience with this as far as you know, 450 00:25:03,636 --> 00:25:06,876 Speaker 1: trying to exercise more or eat differently or is that 451 00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:09,476 Speaker 1: not one of your one of your struggles? No, it 452 00:25:09,476 --> 00:25:14,476 Speaker 1: definitely is. Again, I think Emily and I are like 453 00:25:14,596 --> 00:25:19,876 Speaker 1: lost sisters, and I'm glad this podcast is bringing us together, absolutely, 454 00:25:19,876 --> 00:25:22,156 Speaker 1: And let me tell you some of the strategies that 455 00:25:22,636 --> 00:25:24,796 Speaker 1: I have used, and then Emily, you can decide whether 456 00:25:24,836 --> 00:25:26,916 Speaker 1: you think some of these are things that you can 457 00:25:26,956 --> 00:25:29,796 Speaker 1: adapt to your own life, right, because it's all about 458 00:25:29,996 --> 00:25:32,836 Speaker 1: experimentation and playing with options and figuring out what works 459 00:25:32,876 --> 00:25:35,196 Speaker 1: for you. So the first is, and I know you 460 00:25:35,236 --> 00:25:37,556 Speaker 1: guys have had Katie Milkman on the show, but she 461 00:25:37,676 --> 00:25:41,316 Speaker 1: talks about temptation bundling, and this is one of my favorites. 462 00:25:41,556 --> 00:25:46,236 Speaker 1: So it basically just says you should pair a unpleasant activity, 463 00:25:46,516 --> 00:25:50,236 Speaker 1: so let's say exercising or eating a kale salad in 464 00:25:50,276 --> 00:25:56,676 Speaker 1: your case, with an immediately rewarding, intrinsically rewarding activity. So 465 00:25:57,076 --> 00:26:00,516 Speaker 1: for me, when it comes to exercise, I actually save 466 00:26:00,836 --> 00:26:05,116 Speaker 1: my favorite music and podcasts for exercise time. You can 467 00:26:05,156 --> 00:26:08,636 Speaker 1: look forward to the aspect of now this paired bundle 468 00:26:09,276 --> 00:26:11,396 Speaker 1: is really exciting to you, and that you don't allow 469 00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:15,196 Speaker 1: yourself the treat of in other contexts. Yeah, that sounds 470 00:26:15,196 --> 00:26:19,956 Speaker 1: like it makes a lot of sense. Besides temptation bundling, 471 00:26:20,076 --> 00:26:23,556 Speaker 1: there's one more proven trick we can try, and it's 472 00:26:23,596 --> 00:26:27,436 Speaker 1: actually why so many of us gravitate towards January first. 473 00:26:27,476 --> 00:26:30,796 Speaker 1: To begin with, we're better at sticking with our goals 474 00:26:30,836 --> 00:26:34,356 Speaker 1: when they are accompanied by any kind of fresh start, 475 00:26:34,556 --> 00:26:37,516 Speaker 1: So it might be a birthday, moving to a new home, 476 00:26:37,556 --> 00:26:40,436 Speaker 1: getting married, even honestly, the first day of spring works, 477 00:26:40,476 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 1: the first day of the week works. But it's basically 478 00:26:43,436 --> 00:26:47,716 Speaker 1: an opportunity for us to depart from old ways of 479 00:26:47,796 --> 00:26:51,116 Speaker 1: being right baked in patterns of behavior that we used 480 00:26:51,156 --> 00:26:54,116 Speaker 1: to have. I wonder why then New Year's resolutions so 481 00:26:54,236 --> 00:26:56,196 Speaker 1: often fail, given I mean, you'd think that would be 482 00:26:56,196 --> 00:26:58,836 Speaker 1: a good fresh start, right new year or knew me 483 00:26:59,156 --> 00:27:02,396 Speaker 1: all of that. Yeah, Well, I think one challenge there 484 00:27:02,436 --> 00:27:04,836 Speaker 1: is that people are setting a goal for the entire year, 485 00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:08,036 Speaker 1: and we talked about how hard it is for us 486 00:27:08,116 --> 00:27:12,716 Speaker 1: to sustain that kind of motivation over the course of 487 00:27:12,756 --> 00:27:15,436 Speaker 1: such a long period of time. I think if their 488 00:27:15,476 --> 00:27:17,676 Speaker 1: New Year's goal was okay, for the next five days, 489 00:27:17,676 --> 00:27:20,116 Speaker 1: I'm going to try to go to the gym, and 490 00:27:20,116 --> 00:27:22,196 Speaker 1: then they build on that. And you also want a 491 00:27:22,196 --> 00:27:25,676 Speaker 1: feedback cycle, right, So, Emily, as I mentioned, you know 492 00:27:25,716 --> 00:27:28,116 Speaker 1: a lot of these behavioral insights, they are contact specific. 493 00:27:28,156 --> 00:27:30,956 Speaker 1: They depend so much on your personality type. What's worked 494 00:27:30,956 --> 00:27:32,836 Speaker 1: what hasn't and so you really want to put on 495 00:27:32,876 --> 00:27:35,756 Speaker 1: your scientists cap and test things out. And so you 496 00:27:35,796 --> 00:27:38,316 Speaker 1: want to be in a situation where if that first 497 00:27:38,356 --> 00:27:41,236 Speaker 1: week in which you're experimenting with a goal didn't work 498 00:27:41,316 --> 00:27:44,396 Speaker 1: very well, you can pivot and you don't feel like 499 00:27:44,396 --> 00:27:46,356 Speaker 1: you're failing, and you don't feel like you're giving up 500 00:27:46,356 --> 00:27:49,516 Speaker 1: on the longer term goal. You are just changing your 501 00:27:49,556 --> 00:27:51,996 Speaker 1: approach to actually getting there. And so you want to 502 00:27:52,036 --> 00:27:55,836 Speaker 1: create a system where there is that plasticity, that malluability 503 00:27:55,876 --> 00:27:58,836 Speaker 1: that allows you to change your strategy is needed. This 504 00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:01,796 Speaker 1: is a really smart insight. Try to think of yourself 505 00:28:01,796 --> 00:28:06,716 Speaker 1: as a habit scientist, not a judge. You're testing, gathering 506 00:28:06,836 --> 00:28:10,476 Speaker 1: data and trying new things all the time. Yeah, I 507 00:28:10,516 --> 00:28:12,636 Speaker 1: think that sounds really good. And just thinking about what 508 00:28:12,676 --> 00:28:17,156 Speaker 1: you said, my resolution is going to be to set 509 00:28:17,156 --> 00:28:19,316 Speaker 1: a goal every Monday. So like every Monday at two 510 00:28:19,316 --> 00:28:21,236 Speaker 1: o'clock when I'm tired and hungry, I'm going to set 511 00:28:21,236 --> 00:28:24,716 Speaker 1: a goal for the week and then reset it on 512 00:28:24,756 --> 00:28:26,476 Speaker 1: the next Monday and be like and then I'll be 513 00:28:26,476 --> 00:28:28,356 Speaker 1: able to say, Okay, how did last week go? How 514 00:28:28,396 --> 00:28:35,036 Speaker 1: can I prove this week? And go from there. One 515 00:28:35,076 --> 00:28:37,396 Speaker 1: thing I always notice is when people write to us 516 00:28:37,516 --> 00:28:40,516 Speaker 1: and we go back to their original email, there's a 517 00:28:40,516 --> 00:28:43,756 Speaker 1: lot in the words that can be helpful. And I 518 00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:46,996 Speaker 1: noticed in your original email to us, Emily, you set 519 00:28:47,076 --> 00:28:51,036 Speaker 1: things like I am lacking in discipline or routine or control, 520 00:28:51,516 --> 00:28:54,636 Speaker 1: and then you ended it by saying, I don't know 521 00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:58,716 Speaker 1: why I keep failing to control myself. So there's a 522 00:28:58,716 --> 00:29:02,516 Speaker 1: lot of judgment here, right, am I right? That hit 523 00:29:02,636 --> 00:29:07,756 Speaker 1: pretty hard? Yeah, I just I don't know, Like, I'm 524 00:29:07,796 --> 00:29:11,956 Speaker 1: just surrounded by influences and people who can set a 525 00:29:11,996 --> 00:29:15,956 Speaker 1: goal and maintain it and are disciplined and are structured, 526 00:29:15,996 --> 00:29:19,676 Speaker 1: and like that's something that like I see them achieve 527 00:29:19,756 --> 00:29:21,996 Speaker 1: and then are praised for. And then I turn around 528 00:29:21,996 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 1: and look at myself and I think, like, if everyone 529 00:29:25,156 --> 00:29:30,076 Speaker 1: else can do it, why can't you? And so yeah, 530 00:29:29,636 --> 00:29:32,116 Speaker 1: and I think You're not alone here. So I don't 531 00:29:32,116 --> 00:29:34,436 Speaker 1: mean to be making you feel bad about feeling bad 532 00:29:34,476 --> 00:29:37,516 Speaker 1: about feeling bad, right, but I just want to note 533 00:29:37,556 --> 00:29:41,236 Speaker 1: it and ask Maya, I'm assuming there's a pattern that 534 00:29:41,316 --> 00:29:43,916 Speaker 1: we know about in the human brain, right, yeah, I mean, 535 00:29:43,956 --> 00:29:45,836 Speaker 1: I first want to clarify, Emily, you just use the 536 00:29:45,916 --> 00:29:48,436 Speaker 1: language why can I do this thing? That everyone else 537 00:29:48,476 --> 00:29:50,796 Speaker 1: can do. Yeah, I don't know who everyone else is 538 00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:53,476 Speaker 1: in your world, but they're not the same everyone else 539 00:29:53,476 --> 00:29:55,636 Speaker 1: that's in my world or that I study or that 540 00:29:55,676 --> 00:29:58,556 Speaker 1: I read research papers about. So I think one is 541 00:29:58,556 --> 00:30:02,996 Speaker 1: like broadening your understanding of just how normal this is 542 00:30:03,076 --> 00:30:06,276 Speaker 1: for for any given human to experience. And I think 543 00:30:06,276 --> 00:30:09,116 Speaker 1: what really resonates with me? And again this is where 544 00:30:09,196 --> 00:30:11,236 Speaker 1: I see such similarities in our personalities, but just a 545 00:30:11,596 --> 00:30:15,316 Speaker 1: desperate need for control. And I feel really frustrated. It's 546 00:30:15,316 --> 00:30:17,836 Speaker 1: like I feel frustrated that I didn't reach my goal, 547 00:30:17,836 --> 00:30:20,116 Speaker 1: and I feel a meta level of frustration that I 548 00:30:20,156 --> 00:30:22,236 Speaker 1: didn't have the control that I thought I had to 549 00:30:22,276 --> 00:30:24,556 Speaker 1: achieve the goal. And so it's just like levels of 550 00:30:24,596 --> 00:30:29,956 Speaker 1: frustration building on frustration, right, And one thing that's good 551 00:30:29,956 --> 00:30:33,356 Speaker 1: to acknowledge from the research literature is that we really 552 00:30:33,396 --> 00:30:36,396 Speaker 1: do love being in the driver's seat. We love having 553 00:30:37,636 --> 00:30:40,156 Speaker 1: control over situations. In fact, there's a phenomenon known as 554 00:30:40,196 --> 00:30:43,916 Speaker 1: the illusion of control, where we regularly overstate the role 555 00:30:43,956 --> 00:30:46,916 Speaker 1: we played in driving certain outcomes. All right, So this 556 00:30:46,996 --> 00:30:49,596 Speaker 1: is really baked into the human psyche. And so I 557 00:30:49,596 --> 00:30:51,996 Speaker 1: think the thing that you can do is try to 558 00:30:52,036 --> 00:30:56,276 Speaker 1: figure out how you can build agency and control into 559 00:30:56,316 --> 00:30:58,236 Speaker 1: the goal setting process so that you feel that you're 560 00:30:58,236 --> 00:31:01,556 Speaker 1: in charge. But it's also okay for you again to 561 00:31:01,716 --> 00:31:03,156 Speaker 1: have built in some of that slack and to have 562 00:31:03,196 --> 00:31:06,276 Speaker 1: not met the goals all the time. So there's research 563 00:31:06,316 --> 00:31:09,436 Speaker 1: showing that when we set our own goals were better 564 00:31:09,436 --> 00:31:12,276 Speaker 1: at achieving them. The other thing that I would encourage 565 00:31:12,276 --> 00:31:14,436 Speaker 1: people who are going through, who are writing up their 566 00:31:14,436 --> 00:31:16,876 Speaker 1: New Year's resolutions to do is, as part of that exercise, 567 00:31:17,476 --> 00:31:20,236 Speaker 1: take stock of all the stuff that's going great that 568 00:31:20,316 --> 00:31:23,196 Speaker 1: you're really happy you don't have to change. Because we're 569 00:31:23,196 --> 00:31:26,276 Speaker 1: always focused on, you know, the negative parts of ourselves 570 00:31:26,276 --> 00:31:28,756 Speaker 1: that we wish that we could improve, and I think 571 00:31:28,756 --> 00:31:32,076 Speaker 1: it's a very healthy exercise to remember how much stuff 572 00:31:32,116 --> 00:31:34,956 Speaker 1: is running in the background seamlessly, is actually going quite 573 00:31:34,956 --> 00:31:37,636 Speaker 1: well for ourselves. And that form of gratitude I think 574 00:31:37,636 --> 00:31:41,436 Speaker 1: can actually embolden us in trying to reach, you know, 575 00:31:41,476 --> 00:31:43,996 Speaker 1: the very narrow set of goals that we specify for ourselves. 576 00:31:44,196 --> 00:31:46,996 Speaker 1: I like that, and I like thinking specifically about the 577 00:31:47,076 --> 00:31:50,916 Speaker 1: question what's going well, what went well today, you know, 578 00:31:50,996 --> 00:31:54,196 Speaker 1: as opposed to like a gratitude journal, which I've never, 579 00:31:54,316 --> 00:31:58,316 Speaker 1: never has felt totally natural Emily, what went well today? 580 00:31:59,676 --> 00:32:03,316 Speaker 1: I think this morning actually I had oatmeal for breakfast 581 00:32:03,356 --> 00:32:06,076 Speaker 1: and so that went well. That was a good start. 582 00:32:06,916 --> 00:32:09,516 Speaker 1: I did get a good walk in during lunch, and 583 00:32:09,556 --> 00:32:12,596 Speaker 1: so it's sunny outside and warm outside, so I was 584 00:32:12,636 --> 00:32:16,116 Speaker 1: able to get some just general outside playtime today, So 585 00:32:16,156 --> 00:32:21,556 Speaker 1: that was really good. Yeah, there's a lot going good today. Awesome. Well, 586 00:32:23,196 --> 00:32:27,236 Speaker 1: has this been helpful overall, Emily? Yes, Like whenever I 587 00:32:27,276 --> 00:32:29,796 Speaker 1: was coming into this, I was like kind of unsure 588 00:32:29,876 --> 00:32:33,356 Speaker 1: because like I've been an athlete for so long, and 589 00:32:33,396 --> 00:32:35,036 Speaker 1: like I know how to cycles, I know how to 590 00:32:35,076 --> 00:32:37,316 Speaker 1: like discipline myself, and I was like, what really knew 591 00:32:37,356 --> 00:32:40,756 Speaker 1: am I going to learn here? But like there has 592 00:32:40,796 --> 00:32:43,876 Speaker 1: been so much that I've didn't think about before, and 593 00:32:43,916 --> 00:32:47,396 Speaker 1: so that's I just can't thank you enough, Maya for 594 00:32:47,596 --> 00:32:50,156 Speaker 1: taking the time to help me. And I think you 595 00:32:50,196 --> 00:32:52,356 Speaker 1: can hear my son now, but he thinks you too. 596 00:32:53,836 --> 00:32:55,716 Speaker 1: It was so nice to meet you and wishing you 597 00:32:55,756 --> 00:33:03,436 Speaker 1: the best of luck. Thank you to Emily for reaching 598 00:33:03,436 --> 00:33:05,956 Speaker 1: out to us, and to Maya for all of her 599 00:33:05,996 --> 00:33:08,956 Speaker 1: great advice. Make sure to look for her excellent show. 600 00:33:09,236 --> 00:33:11,796 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans will include a link to her 601 00:33:11,836 --> 00:33:14,036 Speaker 1: podcast in the show notes, as well as a couple 602 00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:16,796 Speaker 1: of other episodes we've done in the past about healthy eating, 603 00:33:17,116 --> 00:33:20,036 Speaker 1: because let's face it, this is a big and complicated 604 00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:23,636 Speaker 1: problem and one episode may not be enough. And by 605 00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:26,036 Speaker 1: the way, we got a really nice note from Emily 606 00:33:26,116 --> 00:33:28,796 Speaker 1: after our conversation. She says she's been able to cut 607 00:33:28,836 --> 00:33:31,596 Speaker 1: down on snacking at work so far, and she's working 608 00:33:31,596 --> 00:33:34,476 Speaker 1: on setting short term sprint goals for the new year. 609 00:33:35,436 --> 00:33:37,556 Speaker 1: What about you? What are the rest of you working 610 00:33:37,596 --> 00:33:40,636 Speaker 1: on in twenty twenty three? What resolution can we help 611 00:33:40,636 --> 00:33:43,276 Speaker 1: you keep? Send us a note at how to at 612 00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:46,076 Speaker 1: slate dot com or leave us a voicemail at six 613 00:33:46,196 --> 00:33:50,356 Speaker 1: four six four nine five four zero zero one, and 614 00:33:50,476 --> 00:33:52,716 Speaker 1: we'd love to have you on the show. If you 615 00:33:52,836 --> 00:33:54,556 Speaker 1: like what you heard today, you know what to do. 616 00:33:54,716 --> 00:33:56,996 Speaker 1: Give us a rating and a review, and tell a 617 00:33:57,036 --> 00:34:01,196 Speaker 1: friend that helps us help more people. How To's executive 618 00:34:01,196 --> 00:34:05,036 Speaker 1: producer is Derek John Rosemary Belson, and Kevin Bendis produced 619 00:34:05,116 --> 00:34:09,196 Speaker 1: this episode. Merritt Jacob is our senior technical director, and 620 00:34:09,316 --> 00:34:13,716 Speaker 1: Charles Duhigg created the show. I'm Amanda Ripley. Thanks for listening.