1 00:00:01,720 --> 00:00:06,640 Speaker 1: Cauzone Media. Hey, and welcome to you. It happen here. 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Today we'll continue our journey through Latin American anarchism where 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: we last left off with a look at the anarchist 4 00:00:13,600 --> 00:00:18,320 Speaker 1: history of Uruguay. We talked about Uruguay's general history. It's 5 00:00:18,440 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 1: radical influences anarchism, this period of popularity in the early 6 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: twentieth century, it's radical experiments and it's cultural influence. So today, 7 00:00:28,880 --> 00:00:31,800 Speaker 1: James and I, because James is here, Hello, James. 8 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 2: Hi Andrew. 9 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,199 Speaker 1: Today we're going to look at what Uruguaian anarchists have 10 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: been up to from the fifties onward, paying special attentions 11 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: the activity of the Ferracion Anarchista Uruguaya and the idea 12 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:47,280 Speaker 1: of especifismo. By the way, as James is indicated, I 13 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: am Andrew Andrew Saige. You can find me on YouTube 14 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: as Andrewism. But all that aside, let's get into it. 15 00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: The Feracion Anarchista i Uruguaya or FAU, was founded in Montevideo, Uruguay, 16 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six. According to Paul Sharki in Di 17 00:01:05,480 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 1: Ferraci and Araquista Irauguaya, the FAU had very strong work 18 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:13,400 Speaker 1: in class roots, as many of the militants came from 19 00:01:13,480 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: labor heavy districts like Zero, which definitely shaped their outlook. 20 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 1: The FAU was also very much emphasized in direct action 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:27,720 Speaker 1: over electoral strategies. It favored armed struggle as a necessity 22 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: in reaction to safer pression and economic exploitation, and the 23 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:39,080 Speaker 1: FAU had a very strong stance against Marxist Leninism. Although 24 00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: some members sympathized with aspects of Marxism, many of them 25 00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 1: resisted bureaucratic and authoritarian tendencies that influenced that milia. Unlike 26 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:52,360 Speaker 1: in many other Latin American countries, as you may have 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: recalled us covering in the past, anarchism persisted in mainstream 28 00:01:56,760 --> 00:01:59,680 Speaker 1: relevance even after the rise of the Bolsheviks and the 29 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,200 Speaker 1: Wents globally, and of course the coincide and fall of 30 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: the anarchists in Spain. According to all of us Zenkos 31 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,239 Speaker 1: sixty five years of Revolution, the FAU came about in 32 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 1: a time when uriquires prosperity coming out of World War 33 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 1: Two had come to an end, as its agricultural exports 34 00:02:16,200 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 1: were no longer needed to feed the Allies massive standing armies. 35 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:24,360 Speaker 1: This economic downturn triggered major social unrest which the anarchist 36 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: presence was able to spring upon. One such instance of 37 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,720 Speaker 1: unrest involved one hundred and fifty thousand workers going on 38 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:35,079 Speaker 1: strike in solidarity with their fellow workers in a tire factory. 39 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:41,000 Speaker 1: During the strike and after, the FAU involved students, unionists, intellectuals, 40 00:02:41,000 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: community organizers, and even a few exiles from the Spanish 41 00:02:44,040 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 1: Civil War to build up a more united labor movement. 42 00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:52,359 Speaker 1: So rather than having unions split along political ideological affiliations 43 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: like moderates, socialists, anarchists, right populists and so on, there'll 44 00:02:57,120 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: be one big tent just focused on labor. Now, I 45 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:06,239 Speaker 1: personally think a big tent has its benefits and its drawbacks, 46 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,519 Speaker 1: as with any other strategy. I think the benefit is 47 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,119 Speaker 1: obviously that it has the ability to mobilize a large 48 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,080 Speaker 1: number of people. But I think the difficulty in the 49 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: drawback is it having so many affiliations under that big 50 00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: tent can mean it there's not really much of a 51 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:26,000 Speaker 1: shared goal left behind, Like, yeah, the anarchists want anarchy, 52 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: the right populists might just want to secure some benefits 53 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,600 Speaker 1: and protections, and the socialists will be interested in launching 54 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:36,000 Speaker 1: a party. Sure they all proclaim to have some interest 55 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:39,360 Speaker 1: on the side of the workers or how that manifests 56 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: looks different from group to group. But we'll see how 57 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: that big tent approach turned out for the FAU. So 58 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: they formed the National Confederation of Workers or CNT as 59 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: that big tent in nineteen sixty four. But even before 60 00:03:56,600 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: that there was a split, not too much of us 61 00:03:59,840 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 1: as after the Cuban Revolution. The FAU is actually divided 62 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:08,000 Speaker 1: between those who were opposed to Castro and those who 63 00:04:08,040 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: critically supported the revolution. Those who were opposed to Castro 64 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: eventually broke away from the FAU in nineteen sixty three 65 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 1: as Castro entrenched himself in the Soviet Bloc, while those 66 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: who remained in the FAU were critical of Castro and 67 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 1: his government but still supported the fall of Batista. Of course, 68 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 1: with the Cuban Revolution came that very noticeable shift in 69 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: American and foreign policy. They saw that with all that 70 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: happening right in their backyard, they need to take a 71 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 1: very different approach if they wanted to win the Cold War. 72 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,200 Speaker 1: Such a zign coo actually describes how in nineteen sixty 73 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:50,279 Speaker 1: one JFK changed the approach of the now infamous school 74 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 1: of the Americas from preparing for Soviet invasion to preparing 75 00:04:54,520 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: for anti communist counterinsurgency against homegrown revolutions. So as a result, 76 00:05:01,720 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: militaries across Latin America became more right wing and seized 77 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,640 Speaker 1: power for themselves to protect civilians from the danger of 78 00:05:10,720 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: their rights. In nineteen sixty four, it was Brazil. In 79 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty eight, it was Peru, in nineteen seventy three 80 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:21,080 Speaker 1: was Chile, and Uruguay fell, and in nineteen seventy six 81 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: Argentina fell. So Zenko noted in jest. Over a decade, 82 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,600 Speaker 1: Uruguay and anarchists will becomes surrounded by right wing dictatorships 83 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: which collaborated to round up and extillminate left wing dissidents 84 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:39,679 Speaker 1: of all flavors. Not to mention, the economic situation wasn't 85 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:44,520 Speaker 1: exactly getting better. According to Paul Sharky, between nineteen fifty 86 00:05:44,520 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: five and nineteen fifty nine, the cost of living doubled 87 00:05:48,120 --> 00:05:51,799 Speaker 1: and wages did not keep peace. By nineteen sixty five, 88 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,800 Speaker 1: inflation was running at one hundred percent, by nineteen sixty 89 00:05:55,800 --> 00:06:00,080 Speaker 1: seven at one hundred and forty percent. Madness. 90 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, just wait and see Andrew. 91 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, we are living in some interesting times. 92 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you never know. 93 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:14,240 Speaker 1: So the president that preceded the military dictator imposed a 94 00:06:14,440 --> 00:06:19,360 Speaker 1: wage freeze and devalue the currency. That was his bright idea, 95 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: his solution to the crisis. So people's lives were obviously 96 00:06:24,560 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 1: getting worse and the time had come for some decisive action. 97 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 1: So the CNT aided in strikes across sectors, had even 98 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,400 Speaker 1: tried to call for a general strike as ale rights. 99 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:39,279 Speaker 1: The FAU decided that they were going to take on 100 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:42,960 Speaker 1: a strategy of urban guerrilla warfare, so they tapped into 101 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: a coalition of leftist groups to robin hood food from 102 00:06:47,360 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: the corporations to be able to the poor. 103 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 2: Awesome, have just hit it. 104 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, But sadly the coalition couldn't last very long. Differences 105 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: in strategy would lead to the FAU doing its thing 106 00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: by in defense councils similar to those organized in the 107 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: Spanish Civil War. Yeah interesting, while the other groups copied 108 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:11,160 Speaker 1: a Sheikwavara style gorilla army approach, forming the National Liberation 109 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: Movement to Permeros or the mL and T. 110 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,480 Speaker 2: The existential debate among anarchists in arms is this that 111 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 2: you've just like highlighted, right, it's need we form authoritarian 112 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: structures similar to those using, for example, the Cuban Revolution, 113 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: the Russian Revolution, these kind of statist revolutions which characterize 114 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 2: the left in the twentieth century in some ways. Or 115 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: is it possible for us to go from our community 116 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 2: defense and the defense committees like the six person groups 117 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 2: that the CNT organized in Spain to a more egalitarian 118 00:07:48,880 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: large formation, like a like a truly revolutionary army, And 119 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 2: like the split that you're talking about is the split 120 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 2: that almost every movement has. 121 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, although the MLANTE was necessarily anarchists. 122 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 2: Right, they were like following the Castro model, is that right, 123 00:08:05,920 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: Like the Shaghavara kind of guerrilla warfare. 124 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 1: Doctrine, pretty much the Gravara sort of model. 125 00:08:11,120 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. 126 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:14,280 Speaker 1: Although I'm glad that you bring up this point because 127 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 1: there's actually something that I was writing about earlier today 128 00:08:19,000 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: and preparation for a video. I think there's a conflation 129 00:08:23,520 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: that anarchists need to be careful with between leadership in 130 00:08:27,440 --> 00:08:30,920 Speaker 1: the sense of authority, as in the right to command 131 00:08:31,000 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: and control and that kind of thing, versus leadership in 132 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: the sense of guidance, advice, coordination, expertise. Yeah, I think 133 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:45,679 Speaker 1: that just as that you might have. Even you might 134 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 1: have an anarchist construction collective, right, and they're building a house, 135 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: you might have something like a foreman who is coordinating 136 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: all the actions and all the different builders and all 137 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: the different treatment of engaging in to ensure that the 138 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: different parts of the house come together cohesively and seamlessly, 139 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: that nobody's like stepping on anybody's tools, that everything is 140 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: being done in a proper time. And that is an 141 00:09:12,880 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: instance where there will be coordination without necessarily having authority. 142 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: It's just really a division of labor to ensure that 143 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 1: the task that everybody is there to accomplish can be accomplished. 144 00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: And the person who is given that particular task within 145 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:32,520 Speaker 1: that division of labor is doing so by taking all 146 00:09:32,520 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: that responsibility. But just as they have the responsibility, others 147 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: will also have the responsibilities and that does not elevate 148 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: them above the other people in that association, right, Yeah, 149 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:45,280 Speaker 1: And so kind of in the same way that you 150 00:09:45,400 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: have that in a construction site, I think that that 151 00:09:49,760 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 1: is the kind of approach we need to take in 152 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: a military formation where the person who is you know, 153 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: respected for their knowledge of military strategy or has the 154 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: information or the expertise to be able to handle the 155 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,640 Speaker 1: planning of that approach, because we're all here to win, right, Yeah, 156 00:10:06,760 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: We're all here to defend our freedom and to defend 157 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: the freedom of the people we love. So there's no 158 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: sense in splitting off into a bunch of different groups 159 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 1: and failing out our task when we can come together 160 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:23,719 Speaker 1: where necessary to engage in the coordination of our strategy 161 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,599 Speaker 1: to improve the chances of our success. You know. And 162 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: of course there is a vulnerability in times of warfare 163 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:35,200 Speaker 1: that we do have the knowledge because warfare historically is 164 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:37,920 Speaker 1: one of the times that is the most ripe for 165 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: authoritaria and seizure and control. But because that vulnerability exists 166 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: in those times is when I think we have to 167 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: be extra vigilant of how that could potentially manifest. You know, 168 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,839 Speaker 1: we don't sacrifice our course and defense of the cause, 169 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: you know what I'm saying. 170 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely, because it's easy to do that. It's easy 171 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 2: to be persuaded that this situation is unique and different, 172 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: and therefore we need to accept some kind of compromise 173 00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:04,080 Speaker 2: of the very essence of what we're doing. The method 174 00:11:04,160 --> 00:11:06,840 Speaker 2: that like the people I have spoken to, both those 175 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: within formations today in Rajava and most in Rejava, but 176 00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:14,960 Speaker 2: also in the Emma and those for instance in the 177 00:11:15,000 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 2: Eyeing Column, which was a FI column in the Spanishivil War. 178 00:11:19,160 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: They're probably the most famous for leaving the frontline to 179 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,360 Speaker 2: attack the cops because they felt like they didn't have 180 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:26,160 Speaker 2: enough weapons and that the cops had too many. And 181 00:11:26,600 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: what they did was that they created a concept of 182 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,640 Speaker 2: the minimum necessary discipline, discipline being something that one has 183 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,359 Speaker 2: for oneself, not the hunting that comes from above. And 184 00:11:35,960 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 2: they had leaders who would lead in times of combat 185 00:11:39,559 --> 00:11:42,960 Speaker 2: right when we needed to make swift and decisive action. 186 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 2: There wasn't time to obtain consensus. They used consensus to 187 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 2: arrive at those leaders. Those leaders were able in times 188 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 2: of urgency to make urgent decisions, but that didn't confer 189 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 2: to power or status outside of that moment. 190 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,599 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, It's just like in an emergency scenario, you know, 191 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,720 Speaker 1: somebody is, you know, leading a surgery for example, or 192 00:12:08,280 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 1: leading a rescue operation. That doesn't mean that they're elevated 193 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: above everybody else. It just means that they have the 194 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: knowledge and the skills to accomplish that particular task and 195 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:23,440 Speaker 1: the others of their own free will. Respect that knowledge 196 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 1: enough to go out with what the person is recommending exactly. 197 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, and that, yeah, that doesn't mean that that person 198 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,960 Speaker 2: is inherently capable of bossing you around, exactly. 199 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: And I like the mention of discipline in particular because 200 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:39,800 Speaker 1: that really is the distinction, because he will talk about, oh, 201 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: you need to have military discipline, how you supposed to 202 00:12:41,800 --> 00:12:46,840 Speaker 1: have military discipline without blind obedience to authority, And sure, 203 00:12:46,840 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 1: we're not going to have we're ever going to have 204 00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:53,120 Speaker 1: discipline to the extent that soldiers are dehumanized and treated 205 00:12:53,240 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: like cannon fodder as you would find in a traditional 206 00:12:56,920 --> 00:13:03,360 Speaker 1: authoritarian military. But the discipline is derived from solidarity, is 207 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: derived from the responsibility people have for each other, the 208 00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: capable have for each other within their formation, and the 209 00:13:08,800 --> 00:13:12,080 Speaker 1: responsible do they have for their own actions as being 210 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: part of that formation, and for how their actions will 211 00:13:14,600 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: affect those around them. 212 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And I think that's something like you see 213 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 2: it again and again when you read the column, the 214 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: Deruty column newspaper, right, they talk about discipline and how 215 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 2: we have to have a discipline comes from our commitment 216 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 2: to our cause into each other, not from any fear 217 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 2: of repercussions or like quote unquote disciplinary action, but from 218 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:35,920 Speaker 2: like the fact that we we don't want to let 219 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:37,440 Speaker 2: our comrades down, or do we want to let our 220 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 2: course down, and like when people do do that. Right, 221 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 2: there are It doesn't mean there aren't disciplinary reactions, but 222 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 2: it means that those are like like you said before, 223 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: you don't break away from the core of what you're doing. 224 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,200 Speaker 2: So they agree by consensus to include with the person 225 00:13:52,240 --> 00:13:55,120 Speaker 2: who has done the thing that is considered to be wrong, 226 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: what a suitable punishment would be or a suitable set 227 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 2: of repercussions would be. So then it reinforces the idea 228 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:07,200 Speaker 2: of like consensus and like discipline coming from oneself rather 229 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:08,439 Speaker 2: than from fear of punishment. 230 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think there is, of course the potential for 231 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: processes to potentially become how do I want to put this? 232 00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,239 Speaker 1: But what I will say is I think it's necessary. 233 00:14:21,760 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: But even in engaging with those who have you know, 234 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: broken trust, or who have seemingly split from the association 235 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 1: or have jeopardized the safety and security of the association, 236 00:14:38,040 --> 00:14:40,520 Speaker 1: that you find we used to deal with those situations 237 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: on a case by keys basis. You know that you're 238 00:14:43,960 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: responsive to the particular circumstances that cause that action that 239 00:14:49,120 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 1: particular outcome, rather than as you would find in modern militaries, 240 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: where you have like a very clear this action has 241 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: this consequence, this action has this concert this action like 242 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,840 Speaker 1: a lot more flexibility is required because we understand that, 243 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,120 Speaker 1: you know, we don't have this matrix of crime that 244 00:15:06,240 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 1: authorities do. You know, we're dealing with calm. They deal 245 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: with crime, right, and so in dealing with harm, we 246 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:17,360 Speaker 1: have to approach each of these situations in the context 247 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: of their situations rather than in some sort of cold, 248 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: like distant calculation, you know. And I think in approaching 249 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: it in that way, people are more willing I think, 250 00:15:28,640 --> 00:15:33,320 Speaker 1: to fess up or to take accountability for their harm 251 00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: because they know that there's that relationship there that you're 252 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 1: going to try to work through it that well, there 253 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,440 Speaker 1: may be many potential consequences to their actions. There's an 254 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:46,240 Speaker 1: openness to dialogue there rather than a rigidity of this 255 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: is what you did, so this is the outcome automatically. 256 00:15:49,560 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that is the latter is like a 257 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:55,800 Speaker 2: system that looks not at people but quote unquote crimes, right, 258 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 2: and like this this is the opposite of a restored 259 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 2: raative justice system which looks at people in the situation 260 00:16:02,480 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 2: they are in and not just the worst thing that 261 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: they happened to have done. 262 00:16:05,840 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: It. 263 00:16:06,240 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: We should return to South America and really once again diverted. 264 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, although I feel like these digressions always get 265 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,320 Speaker 1: to something essential and brings out something extra to what 266 00:16:17,360 --> 00:16:31,040 Speaker 1: I would have, you know, prepared in advance. So we 267 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:34,000 Speaker 1: had this split, right, we had the FAU and then 268 00:16:34,000 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 1: you had the m L and T. And they did 269 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: collaborate where there was common cause, but it wasn't a 270 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:44,680 Speaker 1: permanent collaboration, you know. And while this was taking place 271 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: in the urban guerrilla warfare sphere, you had different things 272 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 1: taking place in the labor movement. The FAU was dealing 273 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:55,640 Speaker 1: with the consequences of big tent organizing as they found 274 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: that the Uruguayan Communist Party or PCU had pretty success, 275 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,720 Speaker 1: they claimed significant influence in the cnt SO. In response, 276 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: according to Suzenko, the FAU created a rank and file 277 00:17:08,520 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: alliance called the Combative Tendency, which pushed for more militancy 278 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: and less bureaucracy in the union movement. Through that alliance, 279 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: the FAU was able to accomplish a lot more outreach 280 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: and action, but in return, the President of Uruguay introduced 281 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: emergency laws executed by the military to counter the unrest. 282 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,199 Speaker 1: The revolutionary left continued to fight against military's involvement in 283 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: civilian life and also formed a daily people called Ipoka. 284 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 1: Then the government was like, stop, don't do that, that's illegal. 285 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:44,680 Speaker 1: And when the governments has stopped on that, that's a 286 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,000 Speaker 1: legal that means they put boots on the ground and 287 00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: you know, raided their offices. And so the people fell 288 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: apart and the group's involved went underground, and like I said, 289 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: the military raided their bases. But then when the FAU 290 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:04,600 Speaker 1: was like, let's get the band back together. Unfortunately, the 291 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:10,720 Speaker 1: other groups were too scared to resurface, understandably, and so 292 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: because of that fear, the PCU kind of had a 293 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: fall from Greece. You know, for a while they were 294 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:25,159 Speaker 1: big boys on campus in the CNT. But after the 295 00:18:25,280 --> 00:18:29,000 Speaker 1: FAU kind of came to the forefront again and it 296 00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 1: was all its bravery and stuff, they kind of end 297 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 1: up falling back. And you see, the PCU had chosen 298 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,880 Speaker 1: to appease the military because they believed that a leftist 299 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:42,240 Speaker 1: faction within the rounds the army might support their bid 300 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: for power, kind of like what happened in the Russian Revolution, 301 00:18:46,480 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: and so you know, they really thought they were cooking something, 302 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 1: but as it saying goes, the store was not even on. 303 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 2: Heard. 304 00:18:56,880 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, the military saw them as pretty much in signific 305 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 1: so much so that while other leftist groups were facing 306 00:19:03,600 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: severe oppression, the PCU was actually pretty much left alone. 307 00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:11,719 Speaker 1: And so when the union rank and files saw that 308 00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: and tilling their backs on the PCU, they ended up 309 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,680 Speaker 1: turning their focus toward the combative tendency because at least 310 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:22,159 Speaker 1: they were doing radical and serious stuff. And so the 311 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:26,120 Speaker 1: unions were under attack from all sides, the police, the military, 312 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 1: and even neo fascist gangs, and the FAU led combatitive 313 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: tendency was focused on defending these workers' movements from those threats. 314 00:19:34,680 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 1: According to Suzenko, the FAU held a secret congress and 315 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 1: formed their own armed wing, the OPR thirty three, which, 316 00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:45,400 Speaker 1: unlike other gorilla groups in the region, wasn't a top 317 00:19:45,440 --> 00:19:49,560 Speaker 1: down organization. Instead, individual cells had the freedom to decide 318 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 1: how they carried out missions and which actions it took 319 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:56,520 Speaker 1: part in. The FAU still set the overall strategy, but 320 00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: it wasn't about becoming some kind of Vanguard. Some of 321 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,200 Speaker 1: the actions bad the way, according to Sharki, included bank 322 00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: robberies and factory owner kidnappings. 323 00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: It's like old school Spanish anarchism. 324 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, well there were some old school Spanish anarchists within 325 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:16,199 Speaker 1: their ranks. Yeah, so it really can't be surprised. 326 00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Drew, there's this wonderful line in Abel Pass's 327 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 2: book about Ruti that de Ruti was very fond of children, 328 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,600 Speaker 2: so he risked his life robbing banks to fund their education. 329 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 1: Oh that's beautiful. 330 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 2: It's such a wonderful Like, yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, I 331 00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: don't know, I just enjoy it very much the whole 332 00:20:34,480 --> 00:20:37,359 Speaker 2: Like you never know what direction that sentence is going 333 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: to go in. 334 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:43,160 Speaker 1: That is a quintessential example of that. Yeah, I think. Yeah, 335 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,679 Speaker 1: so you know, you do what you have to do 336 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:45,640 Speaker 1: pretty much. 337 00:20:45,800 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And like I think it's really like he 338 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 2: wasn't maximalist for the sake of maximalism. He was maximalist 339 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: for the sake of like educating children. Yeah, yeah, it 340 00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:57,240 Speaker 2: wasn't it. He didn't see the violence as and ended. 341 00:20:57,119 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: Itself exactly exactly. It had a reasoning behind it, and 342 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,240 Speaker 1: the FAU was the same way or Their reasoning was 343 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: just that if the capitalist class was going to use 344 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:10,760 Speaker 1: force to protect their interests, then the workers should be 345 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,360 Speaker 1: able to use force to defend theirs. 346 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, fannel and stuff. 347 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: And so they did what they had to do. Meanwhile, 348 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,320 Speaker 1: the PCU was stuck to their policy of appeasement, which 349 00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: actually had a detrimental effect in the broader movement. As 350 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: a military kept growing in strength, and so the very 351 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,720 Speaker 1: anti communist military's involvement in breaking up all the work 352 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:36,280 Speaker 1: activities embolden their role in politics. And then, once they 353 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 1: defeated the m l n T, with the FAU struggling 354 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:43,359 Speaker 1: to resist isolated by the PCU's in action, the military 355 00:21:43,400 --> 00:21:47,080 Speaker 1: to on the opportunity to coop the government, leading to 356 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: the rise of Juan Maria Porterberi, the first president of 357 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:56,119 Speaker 1: the civic military dictatorship in nineteen seventy three. In the aftermath, 358 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: the FAU made the tough call to move the operations 359 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 1: to Argentina, which hadn't yet fallen to military distatorship. From there, 360 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:07,080 Speaker 1: they worked within the CNT to organize a massive fifteen 361 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,959 Speaker 1: day general strike. It shut the country down for a time, 362 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: but it wasn't enough, and the efforts to keep up 363 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: the fight were constantly undermined by the PCU, which still 364 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 1: insisted on negotiating instead of taking real action. Meanwhile, the 365 00:22:23,280 --> 00:22:26,919 Speaker 1: people were suffering. According to Sharky, between nineteen seventy one 366 00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:29,479 Speaker 1: and nineteen seventy six, there was a thirty five percent 367 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: fall in real wages, and by nineteen seventy nine inflation 368 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: was running at eighty percent, with wages limping behind at 369 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 1: forty five percent. So until nineteen seventy six, the FAU 370 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:46,760 Speaker 1: continued to work between Argentina and Uruguay, but after Argentina's 371 00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:51,280 Speaker 1: coup that was it. The coach is Zenko directly. During 372 00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: the US's Operation Condo, dictatorships across Latin America continued coordinated 373 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: to kidnap, torture, and murder leftists across the continent. Between 374 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: sixty eight thousand and eighty thousand leftists were killed and 375 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: more than four hundred thousand were placed in political prisons. 376 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,320 Speaker 1: End Court, Jesus and I think we need to sit 377 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 1: with those numbers, because it's very easy to hear numbers 378 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: like that and just think, you know, that's just a statistic. 379 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: Pretty much, we hear big numbers on mine kind of 380 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:27,880 Speaker 1: goes statistic. Yeah, but to like think about the impact 381 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:30,440 Speaker 1: that would have for tens of thousands or hundreds of 382 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,400 Speaker 1: thousands of people to be just taken out, whether killed 383 00:23:33,480 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: or imprisoned, leaven like a keeping hole of knowledge, of experience, 384 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 1: of education, of radicalism. Yeah, a country may take decades 385 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,480 Speaker 1: to recover from something like that. It's a cultural death 386 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,880 Speaker 1: in a sense. You know, this is the political movement, 387 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:59,200 Speaker 1: but it's kind of similar to how during cluingism, elders 388 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,640 Speaker 1: would be white out and with them all of their knowledge, 389 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,439 Speaker 1: all of their oral histories, all their languages, just wiped 390 00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:08,680 Speaker 1: out in an instant. 391 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 392 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,159 Speaker 1: This is different, of course as a political ideology as 393 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:15,720 Speaker 1: opposed to an entire culture and ethnicity, but it's still 394 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 1: just a massive loss of all that history, all that experience, 395 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 1: all that radicalism and information and just gone right. 396 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard for a movement to recover from that. Yeah, 397 00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,440 Speaker 2: it's not like a genocide or like the colonial kind 398 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,119 Speaker 2: of you could call it a well, it's like a 399 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 2: decapitation of the movement, I suppose. 400 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,399 Speaker 1: Well, I would say it's more than a decapitation because 401 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:40,680 Speaker 1: it's not just like notable figures that were taken out 402 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: or particularly influential thought leaders or anything. It's almost everybody. Yeah, 403 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 1: anybody who had that fight in them, or had that 404 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: radical knowledge or consciousness. 405 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, anyone with any lived experience, all the things they'd learned, 406 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,200 Speaker 2: all the mistakes they'd made, learned from like a gone 407 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,840 Speaker 2: that the movement has to begin almost from like a 408 00:25:00,840 --> 00:25:01,440 Speaker 2: blank slate. 409 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, the history is basically raised in a sense, So 410 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: all this left is really what they might have written down, yeah, 411 00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,520 Speaker 1: which is obviously only a small portion of what they 412 00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: might have had to share with the rest of the world. 413 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, especially in a movement that's been criminalized and pursued 414 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 2: by the state, Right, Like what they write down is 415 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 2: what they risk the state discovering, so that they're only 416 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 2: going to risk writing any things down. 417 00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,919 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. And then you know, when you look at this, 418 00:25:25,560 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 1: this this didn't just happen, you require, that's happened all 419 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: over the world. In some cases, this massive wipeout of 420 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,359 Speaker 1: the anarchist movement took place even earlier, you know, in 421 00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: the nineteen hundreds, nineteen tens, nineteen twenties. But in all 422 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:43,920 Speaker 1: these cases, that loss is something that we are still 423 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,239 Speaker 1: in a sense recovering from. We kind of had to 424 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: Sowy build back, but we still haven't ever reached in 425 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 1: many places the height that aarchism's at at certain points 426 00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,800 Speaker 1: in its history. It's certain parts of the wolf. 427 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean look at even like Spain still has 428 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 2: a very strong anarchosyndicalist movement, right, but like the best 429 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:12,240 Speaker 2: of the anarchists died in Aragon, in Madrid and in 430 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,640 Speaker 2: concentration camps afterwards, or fighting in the Second World War, 431 00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,240 Speaker 2: and like it took decades for that movement to recover, 432 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 2: and it's still not as strong as it was. That 433 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:22,840 Speaker 2: this was one of the high. 434 00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:27,239 Speaker 1: Points, especially when the legacy is so much erased. You know, 435 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,199 Speaker 1: when you look at how histories are taught everywhere in 436 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: the world, you're barely going to get a mention of 437 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 1: anarchism despite the massive role it pleaded in sheep in 438 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: the twentieth century, nineteenth and twentieth centuries. 439 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, this has been one of my constant things as 440 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,359 Speaker 2: a historian, is that like when people write histories today, 441 00:26:46,440 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: they write them from the perspective of the inevitability of 442 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 2: the state, and like, I'm not alone and make this analysis. 443 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:55,000 Speaker 2: David Graeber does it, Jim Scott did it, too. The 444 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:57,440 Speaker 2: idea is that people who exist outside of the state 445 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:02,120 Speaker 2: are behind and that they they have failed or chosen 446 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:06,200 Speaker 2: not to advance to the more advanced human existence that 447 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:08,639 Speaker 2: is a state. And Jim Scott does this in the 448 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:11,160 Speaker 2: art of not being governed, right Like, if we look 449 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 2: instead as people who have chosen to refuse the state, 450 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: then we understand anarchism as a choice that people would 451 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,560 Speaker 2: make knowing the options available to them, rather than a 452 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,720 Speaker 2: step backwards or failure to advance to the state. And 453 00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 2: we can look at a whole of history from that 454 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 2: perspective and see it very differently, but most historians don't exactly. 455 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,960 Speaker 1: I'm sure you've in commented this where people just kind 456 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 1: of assume, oh, well, the anarchists lost, so that means 457 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:51,359 Speaker 1: the destined to lose. Yeah, they lost that particular fight. 458 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: That doesn't mean the war necessarily lost. And additionally, states 459 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 1: have lost too. 460 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, the states continue to lose. 461 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: States, state projects have lost, continued to lose, you know, 462 00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:07,800 Speaker 1: the capitalist project, capitalist businesses, they lose, they fail. That 463 00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:12,440 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that the project is destined to lose, destined 464 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 1: to feel just means that particular iteration or that particular 465 00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: attempt was not able to succeed in all its ambitions. 466 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like, as historians, we shouldn't be making that judgment, right, 467 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,399 Speaker 2: We should be attempting to learn from and document the 468 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 2: past rather than to sort of categorize it into like 469 00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: failed and successful. 470 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, that too, because the standards, the standards of failure 471 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: and success are often dictated by the standpoint of the 472 00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: status school. 473 00:28:44,120 --> 00:28:45,160 Speaker 2: Yes, very much so. 474 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, It's kind of like how the Heitian Revolution is 475 00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: spoken of as the only successful slave revolt or one 476 00:28:56,040 --> 00:28:59,320 Speaker 1: of the only successful slave revolts, and the standard for 477 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: success in that case is that they were able to 478 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: establish an independent state, whereas other slave revolts in other 479 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 1: parts of the world, including within the Caribbean, would have 480 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:14,560 Speaker 1: taken different paths. The Maroons, for example, their phone revolts 481 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 1: was a withdrawal from the system that surrounded them, creating 482 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:23,000 Speaker 1: a pocket of resistance, isolating themselves. Same thing in Brazil 483 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 1: we had Kilombo's, these settle ones that extracted themselves from 484 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: the surround and oppressive structure and try to survive to 485 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: the extent that they could. 486 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 3: Not. 487 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: All of them lasted, but nothing lasts forever, you know, 488 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: Countries rise and fall, and so I think if we 489 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: limit ourselves to just the example of Haiti, particularly in 490 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: the context of success in a slave revolution, I think 491 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,480 Speaker 1: we miss out on a lot of those other examples 492 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: and opportunities for inspiration and guidance. 493 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think you're right. I think like it supplies 494 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 2: to those of places. I think about it, Like, you know, 495 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,480 Speaker 2: I'm fortunate to have this like background in history, but 496 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,160 Speaker 2: also to be with people in their moments of revolution 497 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 2: and to spend time with revolutionaries in the MR. And like, 498 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:13,360 Speaker 2: one of the analyzes that you'll always see is that, 499 00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 2: like this creation of liberated spaces is a not enough 500 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,000 Speaker 2: or be like there are also places within the non 501 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 2: government though, and where there is still very strong control 502 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:28,480 Speaker 2: from a pseudo state. Right, But I think that overlooks 503 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:33,479 Speaker 2: the fact that, yeah, there are not like libertarian states, 504 00:30:33,560 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 2: but people are living their lives without gods and masters, 505 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 2: that they are like experiencing freedom in every moment, and 506 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 2: they are liberated in their own lives as they continue 507 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,280 Speaker 2: to struggle to liberate territory in other people. That might 508 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,320 Speaker 2: be what success looks like, like that they are able 509 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: to be self realized. 510 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, just the psychological experience in itself, It kind of 511 00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,280 Speaker 1: be under other stated or underrated, even if it's on 512 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,600 Speaker 1: that small scale of the individual, that's still valuable. 513 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:09,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and like if we if we acknowledge that, it's 514 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:13,680 Speaker 2: much harder to go back, Like those people can't go 515 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 2: back because they've existed in liberation, right, Like that that 516 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 2: they've lived in a free way. Yeah, and like they 517 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:24,280 Speaker 2: will always know that freedom is possible, that they can 518 00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:28,520 Speaker 2: live without authority, live with without state power, that that 519 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 2: like liberation is a thing that can exist not just 520 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 2: in our minds but in physical space. 521 00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: And like exactly they. 522 00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 2: Will always know that, Like that's that's available. And if 523 00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:40,480 Speaker 2: we can tell those stories, so will other people. 524 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, because that list something as we speak about 525 00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: so often. It's the need in the process of social 526 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: revolution to help people's powers, drives, and consciousness. You do 527 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: that by giving people both of course theoretical education and 528 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,720 Speaker 1: you know, share knowledge in that sense, but also through experience. 529 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: Because I've used this phrase before, you can't put the 530 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,840 Speaker 1: gene back in the bottle. You can't go from experience 531 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: in freedom to a situation of unfreedom and then shruggishulers 532 00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: and think, oh that's all they could have a be 533 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: after you've experienced or to the status quo, you're not 534 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:21,720 Speaker 1: going to go back to thinking the status quo is 535 00:32:21,760 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: all there is and all that could ever exist. 536 00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. We have to remember that when we're 537 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 2: looking at these things, Like it's easy to look from 538 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:32,880 Speaker 2: where something ended and project that back, but we have 539 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 2: to understand how it felt when people were doing it too. 540 00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: Exactly, So what kind of we kind of left on 541 00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: an on a somber chapter in the Uruguay's anarchist history, 542 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: because unfortunately it was only after the fall of Uraguay's 543 00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: stutatorship in nineteen eighty five the anarchist militants were able 544 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:54,560 Speaker 1: to return to Uruguay and re establish the FAU in 545 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:59,840 Speaker 1: a fractured political and social landscape with greatly reduced numbers. 546 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: Some of the former anarchists involved in the FAU created 547 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:08,080 Speaker 1: the People's Victory Party or PvP in exile, which had 548 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 1: attempted to reorganize resistance efforts but also fell into some 549 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: Leninist tendencies. But the main line, after you continue to 550 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:22,080 Speaker 1: focus on crassroots organizing, workers struggles and political education, it 551 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: continues to be engaged in Latin Ercan anarchist networks, particularly 552 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: with Brazilian and Argentine groups like the Ferrasau Anarchista Culture, 553 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: the Ferrau Araquista KABOCLA, the Ferrachau Anarchista do Rio de Geraneiro, 554 00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: and the Argentine organization ALCA. Despite its past radicalism, the 555 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:46,680 Speaker 1: FU has shifted towards a broader approach integrating mass movements 556 00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,440 Speaker 1: while retaining its equipment to anti authoritarian socialism. Since then 557 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: and up to today, the approach has aligned with the 558 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: practice of especifismo, which it developed to rebuild their strength 559 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: in Iraguai and put movements. That approach has since been 560 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: influential across Latin America and beyond, including North America, Europe, Asia, Africa, 561 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 1: and Oceania. I've actually spoken about a specifismo on this 562 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,800 Speaker 1: podcast before and on my channel, but to give a 563 00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:19,160 Speaker 1: quick summary, a specifismo is an organizational approach guided by 564 00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 1: three key concepts. The first is the need for specifically 565 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: anarchist organization built around a unity of ideas and praxie. 566 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,200 Speaker 1: The second is the use of the specifically anarchist organization 567 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 1: to theorize and develop strategic political and organize and work. 568 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,160 Speaker 1: And the food is active involvement in and shaping of 569 00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,719 Speaker 1: autonomous and popular social movement, which is described as the 570 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:45,439 Speaker 1: process of social in social as, Pacifists reject the left 571 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: unity idea of a synthesis organization of revolutionaries or even 572 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,719 Speaker 1: multiple currents of anarchists loosely united, because they feel it 573 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: boils down to the lowest common denominator politics. They feel 574 00:34:57,040 --> 00:35:00,080 Speaker 1: that when this unity is preferred at any cost, it 575 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: leaves little room for united action or develops political discussion 576 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: if being described in a sense as an affinity group 577 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 1: with the shared interest in the advancement of a very 578 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: specific politic But they aren't just internally focused, you know. 579 00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: Specifismo is focused and build in popular power as a 580 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: means of revolutionary transformation, rejecting both electoral and vang Goddess 581 00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:27,680 Speaker 1: Marxist approaches. So the especifies more distinguishes between specifically anarchist 582 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: political organizations or affinity groups and broader mass movements, and 583 00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:38,239 Speaker 1: they advocate for anarchists creating the former and inserting themselves 584 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:41,600 Speaker 1: in the latter, building up anarchist presence and the presence 585 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: of anarchist ideas in unions, in student groups, and in 586 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: community struggles. So if you want a more in depth 587 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: exploration of especifismo, I suggests reading the discussion between Philippe 588 00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: Corea and Juan Carlos Micoso called the Strategy of Specifismo 589 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 1: on the Anarchist Library, and they talk about how the 590 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: fragmentation of the working class undernoliberalism has created some very 591 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: distinct challenges that require fresh organizational strategies and less dog 592 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: batter critgity to simplistic class analysis. But they also speak 593 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 1: for the need to coordinate and discipline and strategically engage 594 00:36:15,480 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: anarchist groups within social movements, retaining the independence but engaging 595 00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: in their struggle. And they also end up in that 596 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:26,520 Speaker 1: interview discussed in the fause long term strategy as a 597 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: process of resistance, rupture, and reconstruction. Resistance meaning that the 598 00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:37,319 Speaker 1: strengthening crassroots organizations, direct action and ideological development. Rupture meaning 599 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,600 Speaker 1: that they're breaking away from canast institutions through revolutionary action, 600 00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:45,279 Speaker 1: and reconstruction meanings they establishing new social relations based on 601 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: self management and mutual aid. It's kind of similar to 602 00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 1: the way that I break down social revolution conceptually as 603 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: an approach that incorporates both opposition and the proposal of alternatives. 604 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,920 Speaker 1: So I have been thinking about specifies more lately. I 605 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: made that video many years ago, and my anarchist understanding 606 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,040 Speaker 1: has shifted a lot, especially recently. In going back and 607 00:37:12,040 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: look at how I would have analyzed things previously, I 608 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,920 Speaker 1: think there's some different directions that I might take it 609 00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: and things in I think, for example, the idea of 610 00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:26,560 Speaker 1: affidency groups engaging in social intution is extremely valuable in 611 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 1: shifting the conversation within you know, these mass movements. But 612 00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,360 Speaker 1: I also think that there's a risk in the ways 613 00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:38,760 Speaker 1: in which a SPECIFIESMO, if not properly understood or conceptualized, 614 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 1: could end up opening ground for cooptation towards some rather 615 00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,160 Speaker 1: unanarchist outcomes. You know what I mean by that is, 616 00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:51,040 Speaker 1: I think it's important one discussing a SPECIFIESMO to be 617 00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,560 Speaker 1: very careful against the interpretation of it as some kind 618 00:37:54,600 --> 00:37:58,440 Speaker 1: of vanguard as strategy, or way to dictate a vision 619 00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:01,160 Speaker 1: of anarchy. I think that even if somebody is taken 620 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,360 Speaker 1: the pacifist approach in creating an effinency group organized around 621 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 1: a very specific form of anarchism, that group should still 622 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:15,239 Speaker 1: be in conversation with different tendencies and engaging in an 623 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 1: ongoing process of critique and convergence of ideas. I believe 624 00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 1: this is the sort of motivation between Malichesta's idea of 625 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,600 Speaker 1: synthesis and the Synthesis Federation in anarchist history. I'm still 626 00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: it in a bit about that, but anyway, I'd love 627 00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: to hear about you know what they are for you 628 00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,680 Speaker 1: and an anarchists you require up to here. Now you 629 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,640 Speaker 1: know they can feel free to reach out to me. 630 00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,959 Speaker 1: I have website now adressage dot org, and I wish 631 00:38:43,000 --> 00:38:46,440 Speaker 1: them or power to all the people. That's it for 632 00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: me today. You can find me on YouTube and Patreon 633 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: and this has been It could Happen here, Peace. 634 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 3: It could Happen Here is a production of coolsone Media. 635 00:39:00,600 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 636 00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:07,320 Speaker 3: Coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, 637 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can 638 00:39:11,000 --> 00:39:13,320 Speaker 3: now find sources for it could Happen here listed directly 639 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:15,640 Speaker 3: in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.