1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,720 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: learn this stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,280 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: production of IHEARTRADI. 5 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,560 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt, 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:27,680 Speaker 2: my name is Noel. 7 00:00:27,840 --> 00:00:28,960 Speaker 3: They call me Bed. 8 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 4: We're joined as always with our super producer Paul. Mission 9 00:00:32,200 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 4: control decands. Most importantly, you are here, and that makes 10 00:00:36,720 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 4: this the stuff they don't want you to know. We're 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:43,640 Speaker 4: looking at the wonders of the world. This is a 12 00:00:43,680 --> 00:00:47,199 Speaker 4: phrase we've all heard at some time or another. Right, 13 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,440 Speaker 4: I feel like you hear this a lot in elementary 14 00:00:50,440 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 4: school and middle school history. 15 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,240 Speaker 5: Oh yeah, for sure, the seven Right. 16 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, when you're learning general history. This is a big 17 00:00:57,040 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 2: deal because you're going back into BCE and you're looking 18 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,800 Speaker 2: at the things that humanity has been able to create. 19 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:08,640 Speaker 2: That literally, if you look upon it, you will experience wonder. 20 00:01:10,000 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 3: There we go. Yeah, that's a great definition. 21 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 4: And of course nowadays, some of the world wonders are 22 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,880 Speaker 4: more famous than others. There are a couple on the 23 00:01:19,920 --> 00:01:23,880 Speaker 4: lists that might see a month familiar to a lot 24 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 4: of us, just because we don't think of them that often. 25 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 4: And it might surprise some of us tuning in tonight 26 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 4: to realize that there's still a lot of mystery about 27 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:36,920 Speaker 4: some of these world wonders. One of them in particular, 28 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:41,000 Speaker 4: this evening, we're on a search for the hanging Gardens 29 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:41,919 Speaker 4: of Babylon. 30 00:01:42,240 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 3: Here are the facts. 31 00:01:44,480 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: So let's talk about what those wonders were. We kind 32 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:51,160 Speaker 2: of mentioned it already. They're exceptional human built places. It's 33 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: architecture generally that existed in the Middle East, in North Africa. 34 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 2: They're in Egypt and southern Europe. One of them existed 35 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 2: allegedly in Babylon, which is pretty far to the east 36 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 2: of a lot of these other places. And you know, 37 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: how again, who made that list, who decided those are 38 00:02:09,000 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 2: the wonders? Who was the world traveler that was, you know, 39 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,160 Speaker 2: writing at the time and saying, dang, guys, you've got 40 00:02:16,160 --> 00:02:17,239 Speaker 2: to see these pyramids. 41 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 4: It was it was a guy named Philo of Byzantium, 42 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 4: but not but there's more than one Filo of Byzantium, 43 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 4: so it becomes really confusing. It's like someone says, oh, yeah, 44 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,280 Speaker 4: I'm visiting Philadelphia and you say, oh, Philly, do you 45 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 4: know John John Philly? Yes, So there are a lot 46 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 4: of filos in play, and historians believe that the compilation 47 00:02:44,880 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 4: of these wonders goes back to Alexander the Great, a 48 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,520 Speaker 4: notably humble guy who conquered a vast swath of the 49 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:57,520 Speaker 4: Western world right around the fourth century BCE. And this, 50 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 4: to your point, Matt, this gave people of that society 51 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 4: of the Hellenistic travelers, this unprecedented access to all these 52 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 4: other civilizations, ancient Egypt, Persia, Babylon. And just like travelers 53 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:17,080 Speaker 4: today posting on Instagram or sending letters, they wanted to 54 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:21,320 Speaker 4: share their experiences with their friends back home. This was 55 00:03:21,680 --> 00:03:26,239 Speaker 4: an immensely entertaining thing and educational, you know, even though 56 00:03:26,600 --> 00:03:30,079 Speaker 4: it was often riddled with errors. They were not originally 57 00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 4: called wonders. They were called things to be seen. The 58 00:03:34,240 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 4: list was like, look at this stuff. 59 00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 5: Points of interest, Yeah, just so side attractions. 60 00:03:41,800 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 3: And people got competitive, right. 61 00:03:43,600 --> 00:03:48,920 Speaker 5: Oh, they sure did. As would make sense honestly for 62 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 5: things like this like my you know, I mean it's 63 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 5: like when you were traveling and you see assigned for 64 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,880 Speaker 5: you know, south of the border, and now it's like 65 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 5: competing with BUCkies, you know, I mean, it's there are 66 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 5: a lot of eyeballs to be vied for and on 67 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,080 Speaker 5: a global sense. That just kind of blows the whole 68 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 5: equation up. So a lot of these writers were kind 69 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 5: of making their own little listicles and noting their favorites 70 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 5: and attempting to get theirs to kind of rise in 71 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:18,800 Speaker 5: the overall ranks. 72 00:04:19,040 --> 00:04:23,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like travel blogs competing travel blogs in the 73 00:04:23,200 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 2: first century BCE. But again, remember most of these ancient 74 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:31,159 Speaker 2: structures were built four hundred, five hundred, six hundred years 75 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,040 Speaker 2: before these writers were making their lists. And we've got 76 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 2: one here, right, Ben. This is from Antipater of Sidon 77 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: or Sidon. 78 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, he was an epigramist. What a weird job. 79 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, but he made a list of wonders. And we've 80 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 2: got a quote. 81 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,559 Speaker 4: I have gazed on the walls of impregnable Babylon along 82 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 4: which chariots may race. 83 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:55,720 Speaker 3: That's one. 84 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,919 Speaker 4: And on the Zeus, by the banks of the Altheus 85 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:02,919 Speaker 4: that's two. I've seen the hanging gardens and the colossus 86 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 4: of the Helios that's three, and four, the great man 87 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:11,040 Speaker 4: made mountains of the lofty Pyramids. Five, the gigantic tomb 88 00:05:11,120 --> 00:05:16,159 Speaker 4: of Mazulus. Huh Maslem right, So six and then he says, 89 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,440 Speaker 4: but when I saw the Sacred House of Artemis, the 90 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 4: towers to the clouds, the others were placed in the 91 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 4: shade for the sun himself is never looked upon its 92 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 4: equal outside Olympus. So like to your point, Noel, he's saying, yeah, 93 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 4: there are definitely seven, here are six, But here's the real. 94 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:38,520 Speaker 5: Banker, here's the real banger. It's true. So I mean, 95 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:40,960 Speaker 5: there is definitely a lot of wiggle room in these 96 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 5: at least in terms of like depending on who the 97 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:44,919 Speaker 5: source was. And then it's all about who do we 98 00:05:44,960 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 5: ascribe as the ultimate authority on wonders of the world? 99 00:05:48,960 --> 00:05:51,760 Speaker 5: And are they even telling the truth? Are they describing 100 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,440 Speaker 5: things that they actually saw? Are they big uping things 101 00:05:54,480 --> 00:05:57,279 Speaker 5: that maybe weren't quite as impressive as they're describing them 102 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:58,880 Speaker 5: to be entirely possible. 103 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,560 Speaker 2: But let's point out something really important in that quotation there. 104 00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 2: The first sentence, I have gazed on the walls of 105 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 2: impregnable Babylon, which chariots may race. Now that's one little 106 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,000 Speaker 2: phrase there. The next phrase isn't And the hanging gardens, 107 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 2: which you know, the hanging gardens is we're going to 108 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 2: talk about, are supposedly in Babylon and he didn't mention 109 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 2: him when he's talking about the Walls of Babylon. You 110 00:06:24,000 --> 00:06:25,880 Speaker 2: mentioned him way further down. 111 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 4: He's just like also gardens that hang somewhere, and Herodotus 112 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 4: does something similar to to your point, Matt. He is 113 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 4: an early adopter of world wonder list or this genre, 114 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 4: and he comes about just a century after Nebekinezer, and 115 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:51,920 Speaker 4: when he writes his world wonder List, he doesn't mention 116 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 4: the gardens so far as we can tell, because like 117 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 4: a lot like we're going to see a lot of 118 00:06:56,120 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 4: people who write at this time they're writing, disappears and 119 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 4: we only know about it because later writers name check 120 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 4: it or reference it. So we don't actually have Herodotus's 121 00:07:09,800 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 4: list his list listical. 122 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 3: We just have references to it later. 123 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 2: And we need to mention there. Nemican Nezzar that you 124 00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 2: just mentioned is allegedly the person the King nemican Azer, 125 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,040 Speaker 2: the second, the king that built this thing that is 126 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: known as the hanging gardens in Babylon allegedly. 127 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,320 Speaker 5: Well, and today we have things like UNESCO World Heritage 128 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 5: Sites and there's like whole organizations that are devoted to 129 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 5: pointing out these incredible features of the known world and 130 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 5: they there are cross references in there, you know, historical 131 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 5: precedents for these things. This stuff is a lot of hearsay, 132 00:07:47,120 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 5: you know, and there isn't like one unified organization that's 133 00:07:50,680 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 5: identifying these things. 134 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 4: So it gets a little murky, it sure does. And 135 00:07:56,080 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 4: just for name check, we'll give you the rest of 136 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 4: the of the wonders of the world, the canonical ones. 137 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 4: This comes from the list made by Philo back in 138 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 4: the day, Greek engineer or another Filo from Byzantium. Again 139 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 4: it gets Yeah, it's the inventor of television Filo farms. 140 00:08:19,800 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 3: Isn't amazing, dude. 141 00:08:22,320 --> 00:08:27,000 Speaker 5: I'm thinking of the professor from Futuramas also a good 142 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 5: also a good reference. 143 00:08:28,200 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 4: So the Great Pyramid is by far the lebron of 144 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,679 Speaker 4: this list. It is the oldest world wonder. It is 145 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 4: the only one still standing, and it was old when 146 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:45,000 Speaker 4: they first started writing these lists, you know what I mean. 147 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,360 Speaker 4: It's hard to it's it's difficult for us to understand 148 00:08:48,760 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 4: just how long that pile of rocks has been around. 149 00:08:51,840 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 2: Some people think it was there before the Egyptians. 150 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, before they started calling themselves Egyptians. And then, 151 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 4: of course they're some people who think it was there 152 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 4: before humans. 153 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:06,120 Speaker 3: That'll be a fun episode, right. 154 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:12,120 Speaker 4: So then there's the statue of Zeus at Olympia, big 155 00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 4: as heck, forty feet high, encrusted with gems and ivory 156 00:09:16,640 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 4: and ebony. Super impressive. Quite a spectacle destroyed in an earthquake. 157 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's kind of funny to because Zeus it is 158 00:09:23,080 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 5: like a statue of a statue holding a statue. He's 159 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 5: also in his clutches holding a statue of another Pantheonic figure, Nike, 160 00:09:32,440 --> 00:09:36,320 Speaker 5: the goddess of victory and sportsmanship. I mean, that's second 161 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,239 Speaker 5: part of nice. 162 00:09:37,920 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 2: Then you got the goddess of the hunt, Artemis. There's 163 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 2: a temple for her in Aphesus, Turkey. 164 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:48,080 Speaker 5: Then we have the Mausoleum of Hallikarnassis, also in Turkey, 165 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 5: which is what it sounds like. It's an incredibly ornate, 166 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,240 Speaker 5: elaborate mausoleum destroyed. 167 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,240 Speaker 3: By an earthquake. Yeah, you know, the Colossus of Rhodes. 168 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 4: That's what a lot of people have heard about because 169 00:10:01,240 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 4: it's depicted in so much fiction, or it's inspired so 170 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:10,319 Speaker 4: many visual elements in philm. 171 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 5: Wasn't there a thing in Game of Thrones that was 172 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 5: very much inspired by this? I believe it was called 173 00:10:16,679 --> 00:10:18,920 Speaker 5: you know, it was in Wow, gosh, what was it 174 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 5: called the Titan or something like that, or Bravos, the 175 00:10:22,400 --> 00:10:23,319 Speaker 5: Titan of Bravos. 176 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 3: That's it's rights. 177 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:27,679 Speaker 5: And also in Lost there's a big part where they 178 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:29,959 Speaker 5: all of a sudden see the remains of this kind 179 00:10:30,000 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 5: of colossus type Greek statue that I believe is a 180 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 5: nod to this big boy as well. Next we have 181 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 5: the lighthouse of Alexandria, big old lighthouse, one hundred and 182 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 5: seven meters three hundred and fifty feet tall, you know, 183 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 5: not really much different than the types of lighthouses that 184 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 5: we see today, very technologically ahead of its time, which 185 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 5: is I think part of the marvel of it all. 186 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 3: It was destroyed by earthquake, Yeah. 187 00:10:55,800 --> 00:10:59,560 Speaker 4: Earthquakes, and then the colossus also went down to earthquakes. 188 00:10:59,600 --> 00:10:59,839 Speaker 5: I think. 189 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 4: One of our exceptions here is the temple you mentioned, Matt, 190 00:11:04,760 --> 00:11:09,120 Speaker 4: the Temple of Artemis. A human destroyed that one mainly 191 00:11:09,160 --> 00:11:11,320 Speaker 4: to get famous because people. 192 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: Uh so. 193 00:11:12,600 --> 00:11:16,199 Speaker 4: The last one is the hanging gardens, which are conventionally 194 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 4: called the hanging Guards of Babylon in modern day Iraq, 195 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:22,720 Speaker 4: and that last one is the most baffling because even 196 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 4: now in twenty twenty three. No one can agree on 197 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 4: where these gardens were, what they looked like, or whether 198 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:34,800 Speaker 4: they existed at all. So did someone make up a 199 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 4: wonder of the world? 200 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: I don't know. 201 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,679 Speaker 4: Let's we've got to figure this one out. You want 202 00:11:40,679 --> 00:11:42,560 Speaker 4: to pause for a word from our sponsor. 203 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:43,800 Speaker 5: I think that's smart. 204 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 3: Here's where it gets crazy, all right. 205 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 4: So we got the one still standing, the pyramid, and 206 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 4: we've got five other wonders that are gone or smashed ruins. 207 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 4: But if those are god, how can we know that 208 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:06,080 Speaker 4: they also existed? 209 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 2: Mostly writing canea forum often very very old writing, that 210 00:12:13,880 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 2: is from the time that these structures stood. That's why 211 00:12:17,240 --> 00:12:20,280 Speaker 2: it's a bit strange that we've mostly got classical writers 212 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 2: like Greek writers and Roman writers who are talking about 213 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:28,959 Speaker 2: the hanging gardens. And my goodness, there is all kinds 214 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:34,680 Speaker 2: of strange descriptions. Guys. I've got a list here from 215 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:39,199 Speaker 2: This is from Grant Frame, who is Grant Frame, PhD. 216 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,319 Speaker 2: Excuse me, who was in twenty fifteen the associate curator 217 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:48,040 Speaker 2: of the Babylonian Section of the University of Pennsylvania Museum 218 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 2: of Archaeology and Anthropology. He I guess was giving a 219 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 2: talk at some point on the hanging gardens, and he 220 00:12:55,960 --> 00:12:58,760 Speaker 2: made this amazing list that I just took a screenshot 221 00:12:58,800 --> 00:13:02,920 Speaker 2: of the shows all all the different descriptions of where 222 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,520 Speaker 2: the hanging gardens existed, what they looked like, why they 223 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:10,560 Speaker 2: were built, how they were built. And it's crazy that 224 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:14,840 Speaker 2: these again Greek and Roman writers didn't agree. No, nobody 225 00:13:14,880 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: agreed on what the heck the thing was? 226 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:21,640 Speaker 5: Right, Like, what does hanging even mean? Comes into question? 227 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 5: You know, I mean because there aren't elaborate descriptions of 228 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:28,359 Speaker 5: the thing, you know, So this title of this supposed 229 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 5: space leaves a lot to the imagination and the idea 230 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,000 Speaker 5: of how are they irrigated? You know, what kind of 231 00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:38,600 Speaker 5: technology that they possess to build such a thing in 232 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 5: such an arid climate. 233 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,360 Speaker 4: Yeah, to your point about descriptions, we can tell you 234 00:13:44,520 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 4: all about these these gardens, and a lot of writers 235 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 4: did over time, and they've got some of the same. 236 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 4: Like the soul the theme of the description is is 237 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:02,920 Speaker 4: pretty constant. But to your point, all the translations that 238 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:06,319 Speaker 4: occur over the centuries make a big game of telephone. 239 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 4: It might sound silly to say what does hanging mean? 240 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,680 Speaker 4: But getting a clear understanding of what this thing is 241 00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 4: will help people in this search to find it. 242 00:14:17,720 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 5: Because I mean, I believe just having a garden that 243 00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:23,200 Speaker 5: is hanging like that. I mean the fact that you 244 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 5: could have a garden at all that would thrive, and 245 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 5: like I said, such a dry and very low rainfall 246 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 5: climate is in and of itself a marvel. 247 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 2: You know. 248 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 5: To be able to do that at this time it 249 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 5: require a lot of technological advances that maybe we don't 250 00:14:36,760 --> 00:14:39,840 Speaker 5: even think they were capable of. But to have it 251 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 5: like up in the air, you know, that's its own thing, 252 00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:46,440 Speaker 5: you know. And we do have descriptions of the gardens 253 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 5: that vary, but what ultimately remains is like, how in 254 00:14:50,520 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 5: the hell have they do something like that? 255 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 4: Yeah, the imagine, if you will, fellow conspiracy realist, a 256 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 4: giant green mountain. In some descriptions it's built out of 257 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:05,680 Speaker 4: mud bricks, and others it's built out of heavier, nicer stone, 258 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 4: and the mountain is terraced with all these trees and 259 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:15,240 Speaker 4: shrubs and plants and flowers that come from local areas 260 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 4: and from very far away. I think, what do you 261 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:20,560 Speaker 4: guys think about this? Is it best to think of 262 00:15:20,600 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 4: it as like a gigantic ziggurat of good landscaping. 263 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 5: I think that's accurate. 264 00:15:26,160 --> 00:15:29,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's been reproduced in all kinds of animations over 265 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 2: the years as looking precisely like that, like a lot 266 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:37,720 Speaker 2: of the other reproductions of Babylon, of ancient Babylon, because 267 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: we know to some extent what Babylon looked like, right, 268 00:15:42,360 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 2: because of who was that guy that excavated it? Oh 269 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 2: cold of A Yeah, Cold of A is German archaeologist 270 00:15:52,360 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 2: that excavated the site from eighteen ninety nine to nineteen seventeen, 271 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: like a long time, right, and we actually get to 272 00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: see Babylon. You can go and visit Babylon now. You 273 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 2: can see ishtar Gate and some of the amazing architecture 274 00:16:05,920 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 2: that existed at the time. So the imagining of what 275 00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:13,200 Speaker 2: this place looked like is like these stepped stepped to 276 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 2: Zigarotte kind of structure similar to the Tower of what 277 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: is referred to as the Tower of Babel that did 278 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,520 Speaker 2: exist there in Babylon, except it's just got a bunch 279 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:23,680 Speaker 2: of trees, like you said, been a bunch of shrubs 280 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 2: and other stuff hanging out on each level, which would 281 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 2: be kind of crazy to be able to support plant 282 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 2: life at each one of those levels, no matter how 283 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 2: you got the water there. 284 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 3: Yeah. 285 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 4: Yeah, And we don't have to go into a bunch 286 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 4: of detail with quotes from Filo and so on, but 287 00:16:41,160 --> 00:16:47,160 Speaker 4: they what you do need to know is the impressiveness 288 00:16:47,200 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 4: for the spectator. Right when the philos of the world, 289 00:16:51,280 --> 00:16:55,560 Speaker 4: the visitors in this Hellenistic society, when they make it 290 00:16:55,600 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 4: out there to Babylon, according to the story, and they 291 00:16:58,080 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 4: see this thing, they're by the engineering and they're definitely 292 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 4: impressed by this complex irrigation system. Even now, if you 293 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 4: think about it, the fact that human beings can go 294 00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:13,280 Speaker 4: to the fortieth floor of a skyscraper and still have 295 00:17:13,359 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 4: the sink in the bathroom work, that's amazing. That's really impressive, 296 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 4: you know, And that's kind of what they were doing. 297 00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 5: I mean, how I'm impressed and also annoyed by the 298 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:26,080 Speaker 5: fact that I have to have a sump pump in 299 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 5: my house to pump the water from my basement upstairs. 300 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 5: And when that thing stops working, you sure as heck 301 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:36,639 Speaker 5: know it. It's really gross. Really fast technology is crazy. 302 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,560 Speaker 5: But again, that's a thing that plugs in and has 303 00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,280 Speaker 5: a motor. You know, we're talking about for this stuff 304 00:17:41,800 --> 00:17:45,840 Speaker 5: much more analog technology. You know, things like the screw 305 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,880 Speaker 5: of Archimedes or whatever like these, you know, very very 306 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 5: forward thinking methods for raising water from lower to higher elevations. 307 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,680 Speaker 4: Yeah, and sometimes there are mentions again by later authors 308 00:18:00,080 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: tierpoint Matt. A lot of these people are quoting each 309 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 4: other and remixing each other, and they're they're writing about this, 310 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,680 Speaker 4: these wonders far after they have been destroyed. 311 00:18:10,680 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 3: There's one guy, Deodorus. 312 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 4: Cecilia's Greek historian from Sicily, who talks about this irrigation 313 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:22,000 Speaker 4: and says there were machines quote raising the water in 314 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 4: great abundance from the river. It's all pretty impressive, but 315 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 4: you know, it makes me think, I think we talked 316 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,000 Speaker 4: about this previously. It makes me think of the first 317 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 4: time I saw the Tower of London. Like it's a 318 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:40,320 Speaker 4: it's a venerated building. It's historically incredibly important, but to 319 00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 4: the modern eye, it doesn't necessarily look like a tower, 320 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 4: because it takes a few more stories for us to 321 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 4: count something as a tower these days. So maybe if 322 00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 4: we I'm putting this out there because maybe if explorers 323 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 4: find the hanging gardens or the ruins of it, they 324 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,920 Speaker 4: don't recognize it, because it does the real thing doesn't 325 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 4: look the way it's been depicted for centuries by very 326 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:09,000 Speaker 4: excited people. 327 00:19:09,480 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 5: I also love this quote uses the word machines because 328 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 5: to your point, Ben, when we hear that word, we 329 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 5: think of robotics, you know, we think of motors and 330 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 5: gas fueled engines. But they're talking about here what we 331 00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 5: would refer to as simple machines. You know, Fulcrum's and 332 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 5: some of the earliest innovations that led to the modern 333 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 5: machines that we know today. So while these things might 334 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:34,000 Speaker 5: not have seemed impressive to the modern eye, the fact 335 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:35,959 Speaker 5: that they were able to kind of harness this stuff 336 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,240 Speaker 5: in that way is mega impressive. 337 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,320 Speaker 2: So let's talk about what an Archimedes screw is, guys. 338 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 2: Fascinating invention that you know supposedly came a lot later 339 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,360 Speaker 2: than this time when Nebuchonizer the second was ruling Babylon. 340 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:55,360 Speaker 2: But it's it's fairly simple in construction when you think 341 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 2: about it. It is a screw, like a large screw 342 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:06,440 Speaker 2: looking usually wooden or metal, thing that turns either it's 343 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 2: usually through mechanical means. It turns, and as it turns, 344 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 2: it takes water from a water source slowly in a 345 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,919 Speaker 2: roundabout way up that screw till it gets, you know, 346 00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:20,840 Speaker 2: up a certain elevation, like let's say six feet up 347 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: into the air, or upwards on an elevated slope. And 348 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: that's a way to get water from let's say, in 349 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,439 Speaker 2: this case, the Euphrates River up to the first terrace. 350 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 2: Then perhaps you'd have another one once you've got enough 351 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:36,680 Speaker 2: water pooled up there, going up to the next level 352 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:39,040 Speaker 2: and the next level and the next level. And that 353 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,520 Speaker 2: would be highly highly highly impressive. 354 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, and also funny story just to show you how 355 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 4: confusing history can be. The Archimedes water screw is named 356 00:20:49,200 --> 00:20:53,600 Speaker 4: after Archimedes, but it was invented before Archimedes was alive. 357 00:20:54,760 --> 00:20:57,760 Speaker 4: It's just branding at that point. Yeah, It's like it's 358 00:20:57,800 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 4: like calling it the the Google Grand Canyon. 359 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 5: I wish I could remember the guy's name. But there's 360 00:21:03,800 --> 00:21:07,200 Speaker 5: this YouTuber I've been watching who's got some great videos 361 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,919 Speaker 5: on this. I'll think of it by the end. But 362 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 5: he said it's sort of similar to the way often 363 00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 5: many pithy English sayings are just attributed to Oscar Wild. 364 00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,680 Speaker 5: You know what this is, like the most famous guy 365 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 5: you know kind of gets credit for all the other stuff. 366 00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 5: You know, which is unfortunately the way the game of 367 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:26,720 Speaker 5: telephone that his history works a lot of the time. 368 00:21:27,040 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 2: Well, let's just give concrete dates for this, because you're 369 00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 2: you're absolutely right. Here been Archimedes born in two eighty 370 00:21:32,920 --> 00:21:38,000 Speaker 2: seven BCE. But nebekan Azer, the second who supposedly built 371 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:42,000 Speaker 2: this thing was around from six oh four BCE to 372 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: five sixty two BCE, so you know, just a couple 373 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 2: one hundred years before Archimedes was around. 374 00:21:49,960 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 3: And what's that? 375 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 4: What's a couple hundred years you know in the big 376 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 4: Christian stream of things. Yeah, there's another strange thing about 377 00:21:57,040 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 4: the literature. No survive being actual from Babylon. Babylonian text 378 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 4: ever mentioned them, ever mentioned the gardens. So what happened? 379 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,879 Speaker 4: Could this be some sort of historical whoopsie? Could this 380 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 4: be a no no? And could one kind of fake 381 00:22:18,960 --> 00:22:22,560 Speaker 4: thing have accidentally snuck into a list of very real 382 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:27,520 Speaker 4: world wonders for scholars, the best way to find to 383 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,080 Speaker 4: prove the existence of this thing starts with the literature, 384 00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 4: and the literature, as we've established, is super confusing because 385 00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 4: so many writers borrowed from each other, remixed things to 386 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,959 Speaker 4: suit their own taste and time, and they spread their 387 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 4: word to anyone who would read or listen. And honestly, 388 00:22:45,080 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 4: that's part of why the gardens got so famous in 389 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 4: the first place. Because somebody made a pitch for the 390 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 4: babylon Gardens as a story of romance. 391 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:59,119 Speaker 3: We think, we think he did. His writing is gone. 392 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:03,920 Speaker 2: Also, yeah, we've got one from who is this I'm 393 00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:10,560 Speaker 2: gonna butcher this Diodorus Sicolus Sicolis or yeah, I think 394 00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 2: that's how you'd say. It's a Greek historian from the 395 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 2: first century. I want to just give you this what 396 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,360 Speaker 2: we're talking about romance. Here's a quote, and this is 397 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 2: also from that same doctor, from the Penn Museum quote. 398 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: There was also beside the acropolis hanging the hanging garden, 399 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 2: as it was called, which was built not by Semamis, 400 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 2: but by a later Syrian king to please one of 401 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: his concubines, for she, they say, being a Persian by 402 00:23:37,080 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 2: race and longing for the meadows of her mountains, asked 403 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,479 Speaker 2: the king to imitate, through the artifice of a planted garden, 404 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 2: the distinctive landscape of Persia. 405 00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 4: And apparently that story from our Greek Sicilian friend comes 406 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 4: from a earlier source. A Babylonian priest named Barysosis, who said, 407 00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 4: who said that nebucad Dresser the second built? He said, 408 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 4: kind of the same story, but in his story it's 409 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 4: not a concubine. It's his wife, Amtis of Medea, who, 410 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 4: like you said, Matt wanted to be reminded of Persia. 411 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,159 Speaker 4: Now is that story true? 412 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:19,480 Speaker 5: Really? 413 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 3: We have no way of knowing. 414 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:26,120 Speaker 5: But what we do know is that it put this 415 00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:28,800 Speaker 5: thing you know, when you can't find something or you've 416 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 5: got like something that's lost to history, but yet people 417 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:34,720 Speaker 5: are talking about it, and the counts might vary, like 418 00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 5: the Lost City of Atlantis, for example, It certainly ignites 419 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,680 Speaker 5: people's imagination and the hunt is on right. 420 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 4: Oh, we shall also point out we talked about this 421 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:50,360 Speaker 4: a little bit off here. Nebuchad Nezzar, as we end 422 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 4: up saying it in English right in the west, has 423 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 4: a couple of different spellings because it's from so long ago, 424 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 4: right in a different language. But he also had a 425 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 4: street name which was like Alexander's, who was very humble. 426 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 4: It was Nebuchnezer the Great. 427 00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:12,600 Speaker 5: Got it, yeah, not just not just the fine. He 428 00:25:12,640 --> 00:25:15,160 Speaker 5: was the great? Right, I wonder I anybody's was ever 429 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,560 Speaker 5: like somebody the best. Maybe that's a little more modern. 430 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 5: The idea of being the best the great seems to 431 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,600 Speaker 5: have been more of a go to in antiquity. But 432 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 5: so now we've got this concept this like you know, 433 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,200 Speaker 5: white whale, you know of a of a seven wonder 434 00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 5: of the world, and so it becomes basically part of legend, 435 00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:40,760 Speaker 5: you know, And scholars of course try to stick to 436 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:43,520 Speaker 5: the facts. But when you have all of these varying 437 00:25:43,560 --> 00:25:47,919 Speaker 5: accounts and not an actual location or perhaps a you know, 438 00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 5: artifact pointing to a location, it starts to get really confusing. 439 00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:58,400 Speaker 5: So scholars do believe that the passage in Diodorus's Biblioteca 440 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 5: Historica describes something that they believe to be the Hanging 441 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 5: Gardens is actually derived by like you said, Ben, Alexander 442 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 5: the Great's biographer, Cleo Tarkas, I believe that's how you 443 00:26:11,600 --> 00:26:16,199 Speaker 5: pronounced that, who was writing in around the late fourth 444 00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 5: century BCE. 445 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:22,880 Speaker 4: Oh, And like the work of Herodotus, this stuff didn't survive. 446 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 4: We know it existed because other writers mention it later. 447 00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 4: And this, this confusing game of storytelling, just accelerates the 448 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 4: confusion surrounding the locations of the gardens. 449 00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:36,960 Speaker 3: Matt, I'm really glad. 450 00:26:36,760 --> 00:26:40,959 Speaker 4: You mentioned out the fact that they're an outlier on 451 00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 4: Filo's original listical and they'll now you've got listical stuck 452 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 4: in my head. But that's what they were, that's what 453 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,320 Speaker 4: they were done for. Yeah, And so he wrote the 454 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 4: gardens were quote a long journey to the land of 455 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 4: the Persians on the far side of the Euphrates, and 456 00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 4: all the other wonders were in or around the eastern Mediterranean, so. 457 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 3: We know it was far away. 458 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:10,240 Speaker 4: We know all sources that reference a Babylonian garden that 459 00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:13,119 Speaker 4: is super impressive and tiered and high and has this 460 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 4: cool irrigation. Those all come from the fourth century BC 461 00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 4: at the earliest, and folks like Caradotas, who are just 462 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,440 Speaker 4: one century after nebucon Ezer. 463 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,159 Speaker 3: They write this huge history. 464 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:30,879 Speaker 4: Of all the cool stuff they can think of, and 465 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 4: the gardens are nowhere on that list. So how did 466 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 4: one guy, one very smart guy, miss it so soon 467 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:41,080 Speaker 4: after and then centuries later a bunch of people are 468 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:42,800 Speaker 4: like Reddit level experts on it. 469 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 2: That's a great question. It does seem like it's very 470 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 2: odd because, as this person from Penn Museum notes, there's 471 00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,879 Speaker 2: a ton of writing on these these clay cylinders and 472 00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,280 Speaker 2: on clay tablets from nebekan Azer's time. But often or 473 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 2: most of this stu that they have is about him 474 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 2: and his conquerings, right, because he controlled the largest version 475 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 2: of the Babylonian Empire that ever existed, that you went 476 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: from Egypt all the way over far to the east, 477 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: and most of his stuff is writing about building temples 478 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 2: in other places that he's basically been through. Right, we 479 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 2: rode through this area and I build a badass temple 480 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 2: and it only took me fifteen days. Like that's literally 481 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,119 Speaker 2: what some of his writings said, and you can see 482 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:36,879 Speaker 2: that stuff echoing through some of the classical writers. You 483 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: can see some like specific phrases like the I built 484 00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: it in fifteen days thing talking like some people mention 485 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:50,080 Speaker 2: that Nebekinezer built his one of his temples in Babylon 486 00:28:50,160 --> 00:28:53,240 Speaker 2: in fifteen days, but that's actually incorrect because they're just 487 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 2: pulling it from his other writing and attributing it to 488 00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: him building parts of the actual like Babylon. So I 489 00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 2: don't know, man, it does feel like it's the game 490 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,240 Speaker 2: of telephone you just mentioned there, that we're trying to 491 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 2: piece it together the best we can kind of like 492 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 2: they were trying to piece things together the best they 493 00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:15,160 Speaker 2: could couple hundred years after Nebuchinezer's reign. I don't know, 494 00:29:15,280 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 2: it's feeling like maybe this whole hanging gardens thing never 495 00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 2: was in Babylon. 496 00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, you can see how this can get frustrating. And 497 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 4: then some people will say, well, maybe it wasn't a 498 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 4: thing at all. Maybe somebody just saw some plants on 499 00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 4: a hill and made a big deal out of it 500 00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 4: because they wanted other folks to know they travel right. 501 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 4: But I don't know if it's on that far end 502 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 4: of the spectrum there, because we have to remember it 503 00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 4: was years ago. It was baffling we because of this show. 504 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 4: I don't know about you guys, but I didn't know 505 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 4: that Troy had ever been considered a legendary city, and 506 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 4: it was until pretty like until all the way up 507 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 4: to the late eighteen hundreds when guy Heinrich Schleiman actually 508 00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 4: found it. Before then, people thought Troy was a bunch 509 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 4: of other cities that have been confused over time or 510 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:10,920 Speaker 4: just made. 511 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:12,000 Speaker 3: Up for a good story. 512 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 4: And that's one of the questions we have to ask 513 00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:20,080 Speaker 4: when we ask about the hanging gardens of to your point, 514 00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 4: Matt Babylon or the hanging guards of at breaks. 515 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:26,600 Speaker 5: Asiria, that's one. 516 00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 2: What do you what do you Assyria? What do you 517 00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 2: guys think? What do you guys think people will write 518 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 2: about or think about the Georgia guidestones in one hundred years, 519 00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:41,080 Speaker 2: four hundred years? Did they really exist? Were they there? 520 00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 4: Is? 521 00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,640 Speaker 2: I mean, we've got photographic evidence maybe, but it's all digitized. 522 00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:47,880 Speaker 2: Can they access it. 523 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,600 Speaker 5: Depends exactly whether they can access it or not. And 524 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 5: to your point, Ben, whether or not like one, you know, 525 00:30:53,000 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 5: maybe well known chronicler or you know, let's say proto 526 00:30:57,480 --> 00:30:59,960 Speaker 5: travel blogger, was the one who just said, I'm gonna 527 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 5: make this place a star because I see it and 528 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 5: I think it's cool and I want to get myself 529 00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,560 Speaker 5: some clout. Now we have so much more access to information, 530 00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 5: and I just wanted to point out the YouTube channel 531 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 5: I was talking about earlier as Geographics, and the lovely 532 00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 5: British fellow that narrates these videos pointed out that at 533 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 5: the time, you know, these were the equivalent of travel bloggers, 534 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 5: and today how many travel bloggers are writing about places 535 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 5: that they've never actually set foot in. That was not 536 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 5: possible back then. You were observing either firsthand or quoting 537 00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 5: some of these other writers, which is I guess that's 538 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 5: sort of similar to you know, just googling things, but 539 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 5: you had a lot fewer folks that were doing this 540 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 5: that would have enough prominence to be circulated. 541 00:31:41,760 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 4: And we're going to pause for a word from our response, 542 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 4: or we're going to circulate through an ad break with 543 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 4: our own complex podcast irrigation system, and then we'll return 544 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 4: to dive a little bit further into the mystery. 545 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 3: We're back. 546 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:07,800 Speaker 4: There have been some amazing, incredibly impressive attempts to discover 547 00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 4: the Hanging Gardens. But even when those attempts failed, which 548 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:16,360 Speaker 4: they all have so far, there were still other astonishing 549 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,400 Speaker 4: discoveries made. Like we've got to chat about Robert Coldove, 550 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,840 Speaker 4: like you said, Matt, Between eighteen ninety nine nineteen seventeen, 551 00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 4: this guy led the first modern excavation of ruins in Babylon, 552 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 4: and they found at one point a strange arched structure 553 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 4: beneath the northeast corner of the Southern Palace. And as 554 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 4: soon as they found it, they knew they were certain 555 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 4: they have found something important. 556 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 5: That's right, they found a large stone structure carved stone 557 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 5: structure that was resistant to moisture, or at least it 558 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,960 Speaker 5: was somewhat more resistant to moisture than what maybe typically 559 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 5: would have been used in the situation, which would be 560 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 5: mud brick, which of course is much more porous. 561 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: Which is what most of the place was made out of. 562 00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 5: That's exactly right. So these thick walls would have really 563 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 5: done a fine job of supporting a lot of plant life. 564 00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:21,200 Speaker 4: Mm hmm, okay, sounds like good, good planning for a garden. 565 00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,360 Speaker 4: There was also evidence of wells, and Cultivated took this 566 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:31,239 Speaker 4: to be evidence of irrigation. They they really dove into this, 567 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 4: and they were increasingly well. Factions of the excavation were 568 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 4: increasingly certain they had discovered the hanging gardens, but later 569 00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:46,200 Speaker 4: research would indicate this was probably an ancient version of 570 00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:50,480 Speaker 4: a warehouse like They even found some writing depicting, you know, 571 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 4: X number of goods is going is stored here, et cetera. 572 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,680 Speaker 4: Doesn't mean it wasn't the hanging gardens. Somebody could have 573 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 4: been in the gardens and you know, drop their tablet 574 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 4: their shopping list. Maybe I don't know, but that's the thing. 575 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 4: There are multiple other near misses in the search, and 576 00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:13,799 Speaker 4: each time these excavations and the people leading them with 577 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 4: the best of intentions, they find amazing ruins of other structures, 578 00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 4: just not these legendary hanging gardens, and that led scholars 579 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 4: to ask the question that you were asking at And 580 00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:28,640 Speaker 4: I think that we're all asking. 581 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 3: What if we're just looking in the wrong place. What 582 00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 3: if we're leading. 583 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,839 Speaker 4: Too hard on this Babylon aspect right? What if there 584 00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,560 Speaker 4: is some other hanging garden in some other part of 585 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 4: the world. 586 00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:42,520 Speaker 3: You mentioned to Syria, Oh yeah. 587 00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,120 Speaker 2: Sure, we'll go to serious sec. I just wanted to 588 00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 2: spend one more moment here on cold of A's excavations. Guys. 589 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 2: I think it's incredible that that team built an entire 590 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:56,160 Speaker 2: railway just to get the dirt out of the thing 591 00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 2: that they were trying to excavate. So, you know, when 592 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 2: we're talking about coldi of A in the this you know, 593 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:04,400 Speaker 2: archaeologist and team of people working with them looking for 594 00:35:04,440 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: the hanging gardens or whatever it is. It's not like 595 00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 2: they checked everything out and they thought, Okay, maybe that's 596 00:35:09,719 --> 00:35:12,359 Speaker 2: not here. Because it's a huge site. Again, they built 597 00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:16,360 Speaker 2: a railway to get the dirt out, and they looked 598 00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:20,240 Speaker 2: everywhere they possibly could and it just wasn't. It didn't 599 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:25,080 Speaker 2: seem to be there, right unless it completely fully collapsed 600 00:35:25,120 --> 00:35:29,680 Speaker 2: and there was zero you know, there's no way you 601 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 2: could look at one of the structures that still kind 602 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 2: of at least in some way stands there. I just 603 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 2: don't think it's possible that they missed the hanging gardens. 604 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 3: Right well under the Euphrates. 605 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 2: It could be under the Euphrates, but there's some weird 606 00:35:46,440 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 2: stuff there because when Babylon was you know, conquered and everything, 607 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: the Euphrates River was diverted away from the city for 608 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: a time, which is you know, makes me think it 609 00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 2: probably I don't know, maybe they built it when it 610 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,759 Speaker 2: was moved away, but that doesn't match up with the timelines. 611 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,320 Speaker 2: I don't know, man, it's still just maybe. Yeah, it 612 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:11,320 Speaker 2: feels like to me it just wasn't ever in Babylon. 613 00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: And I'm glad we're going, you know, checking out some 614 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,240 Speaker 2: other places because I think some of the Assyrian kings 615 00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:19,600 Speaker 2: may have wanted to make something like this too. 616 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 4: Oh, they definitely wrote about it right. Shout out to 617 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 4: Oxford University assyriologist Stephanie Dolly Daily, the author of a 618 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 4: book called Lost Gardens of Babylon, this professor is legitimate. 619 00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:37,000 Speaker 4: She argues that the hanging gardens were not built by 620 00:36:37,080 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 4: nebukandezer At in Babylon at all, nebukdzer the second, but 621 00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:46,279 Speaker 4: in Nineveh by an Assyrian ruler named here we go 622 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 4: Sena Cherub, sena Cherub. And don't know why I'm doing 623 00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:55,000 Speaker 4: Alex trebek voice that always irritated me on Jeopardy when 624 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 4: Alex Trebek would by all accounts a tremendous guy, but 625 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 4: some game show hosts, but you know, he would read 626 00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 4: sometimes he'd read off the answers as though he uh, 627 00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 4: as though he was super familiar with it. 628 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:10,919 Speaker 5: So sorry, that's sort of his job. 629 00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,719 Speaker 3: Though, you know, you know, you've got the card in 630 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:15,200 Speaker 3: front of him. 631 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:17,000 Speaker 5: He does have the card. He didn't know, he didn't 632 00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,480 Speaker 5: write the questions, and he is definitely not the possessor 633 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:24,160 Speaker 5: of the wealth of Jeopardy pantheon knowledge. But yeah, and 634 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 5: uh and rip national treasure. And this argument leans pretty 635 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 5: heavily on some records that were found, these prism shaped 636 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,480 Speaker 5: stone records that chronicled the reign of the king. And 637 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 5: there is a passage that quotes the king directly and 638 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:45,719 Speaker 5: saying I raised the height of the surroundings of the 639 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:50,000 Speaker 5: palace to be a wonder in capital for all People's 640 00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 5: a high garden imitating the Amanas mountains. I laid out 641 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,239 Speaker 5: next to it with all kinds of aromatic plants. So 642 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,080 Speaker 5: that fits the bill, guys, wouldn't you say, the idea 643 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:07,240 Speaker 5: of mimicking a different you know, uh climate, the idea 644 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:10,319 Speaker 5: of of mimicking a different landscape, and that in and 645 00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:12,880 Speaker 5: of itself is sort of the flex right. It's like, 646 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:14,240 Speaker 5: I can, I can build anything. 647 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 3: I'm the king, and it does sound like a kick 648 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:17,560 Speaker 3: ass garden. 649 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 5: Indeed, and just you know, just to go back to 650 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 5: what I was saying, this really does feel in keeping 651 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 5: with the notion of the king of Babylon imitating a landscape, right, 652 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 5: that was like the whole kind of deal. So this 653 00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,200 Speaker 5: very much him saying that, you know, I will raise 654 00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:40,040 Speaker 5: a high garden imitating the Amanis mountains. I laid next 655 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 5: to it with all kinds I laid out next to it, 656 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,760 Speaker 5: with all kinds of aromatic plants. I mean, this really 657 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 5: is I mean, it could well be parallel thinking, you know, 658 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 5: I mean this again, like the idea of controlling the 659 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 5: environment is kind of tail as old as time and 660 00:38:54,480 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 5: something that man is always sort of aspired to be 661 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 5: able to do. I mean, that's sort of what building, 662 00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 5: you know, archae exture is in and of itself. But 663 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,839 Speaker 5: the idea of controlling the environment is in a way 664 00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 5: a godlike power. 665 00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:13,399 Speaker 4: And Senatorub's records from the records from that administration talk 666 00:39:13,480 --> 00:39:18,400 Speaker 4: about this imitation of Mount Amanus, which is a range 667 00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 4: in the very very south of modern day Turkey, just 668 00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,600 Speaker 4: the same way people talked about Babylon's King Nebukonezer the 669 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:35,000 Speaker 4: Second imitating Persian landscapes for his paramore. Another argument in 670 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 4: favor of this is the idea that the Senator administration 671 00:39:40,360 --> 00:39:46,280 Speaker 4: was also really well known for irrigation and engineering innovations. 672 00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,200 Speaker 4: If there was someone to build a complex irrigation system 673 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 4: in this area at this time, it would. 674 00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:53,439 Speaker 3: Be this dude. 675 00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,480 Speaker 4: Well, I say this dude, it would be this dude's 676 00:39:56,480 --> 00:40:00,840 Speaker 4: administration and civilization. And that's that's why for a while 677 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 4: some historians even credited him with the invention of the 678 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:07,759 Speaker 4: Archimedes water screw. But again, all we know about the Archimedes' 679 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:11,359 Speaker 4: water screw is it was definitely not invented by Archimedes, 680 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 4: and it works. 681 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 5: Have you guys seen the new Indiana Jones film yet? 682 00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:17,560 Speaker 2: Is it out? 683 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 5: It is out in a big This isn't a spoiler 684 00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 5: because it's literally the name of the film is The 685 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,480 Speaker 5: Dial of Destiny, which refers to the antithic Kara mechanism 686 00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 5: at which is, you know, supposedly a lost invention of Archimedes. 687 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 5: And again, Archimedes sort of represents this innovative mind you know, 688 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:43,000 Speaker 5: of history like like again, like he is sort of 689 00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:47,120 Speaker 5: credited with being the first person to like invent maths, 690 00:40:47,239 --> 00:40:49,919 Speaker 5: you know, I mean, not exactly but overstating the case. 691 00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:52,480 Speaker 5: But that's sort of what happens, you know, with guys 692 00:40:52,560 --> 00:40:55,840 Speaker 5: like that, who just occupy such a massive space and 693 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,840 Speaker 5: history and loom so large that the ideas of others 694 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:00,880 Speaker 5: often get kind of lumped in with things that maybe 695 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:02,480 Speaker 5: they didn't have anything to do with, or that they 696 00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:04,359 Speaker 5: were just kind of copying or improving upon. 697 00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, a single individual or name becomes kind of an 698 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:13,399 Speaker 4: historical repository for a bunch of other stories, a bunch 699 00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,399 Speaker 4: of other events and inventions. But this this is interesting too, 700 00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:23,479 Speaker 4: because archaeologists found an aqueduct system built during the reign 701 00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:28,360 Speaker 4: of Sinich arab that used two million blocks of stone. 702 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:29,280 Speaker 5: Jeez. 703 00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it was like a big deal. It was 704 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 4: a genuine public work. So right now, as a result, 705 00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 4: this Assyrian argument is one of the most intriguing and 706 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:46,680 Speaker 4: plausible theories surrounding the mystery of the hanging gardens. Maybe 707 00:41:46,719 --> 00:41:49,080 Speaker 4: they were just maybe people were just looking in the 708 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:52,160 Speaker 4: wrong place for a long time and found many other 709 00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:53,479 Speaker 4: amazing things on the way. 710 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,920 Speaker 5: Ben, don't we typically credit the ancient Romans Greeks with 711 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:01,719 Speaker 5: inventing aqueduct It's an irrigation and stu, I mean just 712 00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:06,359 Speaker 5: in general, like is this in in dispute? Like are 713 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:08,960 Speaker 5: we are we like questioning even whether or not this 714 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,279 Speaker 5: technology actually existed or or do we know about these 715 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,759 Speaker 5: two million blocks? If so, I would think that it 716 00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:18,680 Speaker 5: would be unequivocally credited to the Assyrians. You know, the 717 00:42:18,719 --> 00:42:21,360 Speaker 5: idea of inventing public works and aqueducts. 718 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a good question. I think. 719 00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,880 Speaker 4: Right now, the first aqueduct is considered to be the 720 00:42:27,920 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 4: aqua Appia, which was made in by ancient Romans. It's 721 00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:36,840 Speaker 4: a good question who gets the who gets the credit 722 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 4: for that one? If enough time passes, you know, and 723 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 4: We're the last podcast around that survives and mentions the 724 00:42:43,360 --> 00:42:46,720 Speaker 4: word aqueducts maybe will be in the history books. 725 00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 5: Well, it's also the nature of conquering forces, isn't it. 726 00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 5: You know, if you conquer and topple a civilization, you 727 00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 5: can then rewrite the history books in your favor and 728 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,680 Speaker 5: take credit for a lot of their innovations. So it 729 00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 5: is good, It is good at least some of these 730 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,879 Speaker 5: little remnants, historical remnants remain to at least call into 731 00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,040 Speaker 5: question some of that stuff. But yeah, the idea, it's 732 00:43:08,080 --> 00:43:11,720 Speaker 5: so much easier is to swallow the big story painted 733 00:43:11,719 --> 00:43:13,360 Speaker 5: by the winners than it is to maybe think a 734 00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 5: little further back or a little deeper. 735 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:18,640 Speaker 4: And that there's a great quote you found, which I 736 00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 4: believe is it hits on one of the most frustrating 737 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 4: parts of this mystery, and it comes from the expert 738 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,880 Speaker 4: you cited earlier. Maybe we end with this one. 739 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,600 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Grant Frame. He gave a talk you can 740 00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,960 Speaker 2: find on YouTube right now titled Great Wonders colon searching 741 00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:41,080 Speaker 2: for the Hanging Gardens of Babylon. He just says, all right, 742 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,960 Speaker 2: when we're talking about the hanging Gardens of Babylon, I 743 00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 2: could tell you all about all this other stuff in Babylon. 744 00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:50,919 Speaker 2: I could tell you about all these other things. Let's 745 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,640 Speaker 2: talk about that for days. But the hanging gardens, well, 746 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,120 Speaker 2: we don't know where they were, We don't know what 747 00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:59,520 Speaker 2: they looked like, and maybe we found them, but we 748 00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:03,879 Speaker 2: didn't recognize them, and they're lost again, so. 749 00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:11,000 Speaker 4: Completely possible, and unlike the unlike the gardens of Babylon 750 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,520 Speaker 4: or wherever they may be, we try to be very 751 00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:18,000 Speaker 4: easy to find, so you won't need an intense excavation. 752 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,759 Speaker 4: You won't need to build your own rail infrastructure. All 753 00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 4: you have to do is pop online, give us a 754 00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:25,800 Speaker 4: call or drop us an email. 755 00:44:26,320 --> 00:44:31,320 Speaker 5: Yes, point your browser to any number of social media sites. 756 00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 5: Are we on threads yet? Guys? We should know, we 757 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:36,080 Speaker 5: should We have no Do. 758 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 3: You know the thing about threads? 759 00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:40,320 Speaker 4: You know the big news. If you start a thread's account, 760 00:44:40,360 --> 00:44:43,279 Speaker 4: first off, no one reads terms and conditions. We should 761 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,240 Speaker 4: do an episode about that. If you start a thread's 762 00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:49,880 Speaker 4: account and you decide it's not for you and you 763 00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 4: want to cancel your account, then you also have to 764 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,920 Speaker 4: cancel your Instagram account if you have an Instagram account. Yeah, 765 00:44:56,040 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 4: so it's like walking into a restaurant saying oh, you know, 766 00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,239 Speaker 4: this isn't for me. I'm not into it, and then 767 00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:05,680 Speaker 4: having the manager pop out the back of the kitchen 768 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:08,799 Speaker 4: and say you can leave if you want, but you'll 769 00:45:08,880 --> 00:45:11,640 Speaker 4: never into another restaurant to get Yeah. 770 00:45:11,680 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 5: Well, I guess the key there is like, how many 771 00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,040 Speaker 5: of us have you know, social media accounts that we 772 00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:18,520 Speaker 5: just don't even look at. I did the thing. I'm 773 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:20,680 Speaker 5: such a dummy. Gosh, I wish I would to wait 774 00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 5: until I have this now I am. I did the 775 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 5: thing and I looked at it and I was like, okay, 776 00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:27,399 Speaker 5: but that that is definitely not in the bold print 777 00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,560 Speaker 5: because there is no bullprint, because they make it so 778 00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,279 Speaker 5: easy for you just to click through. Oh you get 779 00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,560 Speaker 5: all your followers, You're only gonna be looking at stuff 780 00:45:33,560 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 5: from them. And I believe Zuckerberg netted about ten million 781 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:38,880 Speaker 5: new users overnight. 782 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:39,440 Speaker 1: Wow. 783 00:45:40,000 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 5: Yeah. And you know, and obviously this they pushed the 784 00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,920 Speaker 5: launch of this thing over the holiday kind of quietly, 785 00:45:47,160 --> 00:45:50,799 Speaker 5: while Twitter is at its absolute lowest, and so, you know, 786 00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,040 Speaker 5: kind of funny how Zuckerberg poured all this money into 787 00:45:54,080 --> 00:45:57,239 Speaker 5: this metaverse thing totally fell on his face and now 788 00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,839 Speaker 5: he's back in the news By just doing what he's 789 00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:01,680 Speaker 5: all always done and copied other folks. 790 00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:04,640 Speaker 2: Well, can I be k for some kind of blue 791 00:46:04,680 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 2: thread so everybody knows I'm legit or. 792 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:09,040 Speaker 5: No, you don't. You don't pay You can't. That's the thing. 793 00:46:09,320 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 5: You can't. You can't pay for it on Instagram. That's 794 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:13,960 Speaker 5: exclusively a Twitter thing and part of the reason that 795 00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,840 Speaker 5: it's become such an embarrassing debacle. But that's an episode 796 00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:20,120 Speaker 5: for another day, possibly an update in our next Strange 797 00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,840 Speaker 5: news Uh. You can, in fact, though, point your browser 798 00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:28,640 Speaker 5: to our handle conspiracy stuff on Twitter, YouTube, and Facebook, 799 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 5: Conspiracy Stuff show on Instagram and TikTok. 800 00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 2: If you like to call and talk to people on 801 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,719 Speaker 2: a voicemail system, why don't you call one eight three 802 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 2: three st d w y t K. You've got three minutes, 803 00:46:41,560 --> 00:46:43,719 Speaker 2: say whatever you'd like, give yourself a cool nickname, and 804 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 2: let us know if we can use your message and 805 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:47,840 Speaker 2: name on the air. If you don't want to do 806 00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 2: any of that, but you still want to talk with us, 807 00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,920 Speaker 2: you can send us a good old fashioned email. 808 00:46:52,160 --> 00:47:14,080 Speaker 4: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 809 00:47:14,200 --> 00:47:16,280 Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want you to Know is a production 810 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:20,920 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts, from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 811 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:23,840 Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.