1 00:00:03,400 --> 00:00:06,560 Speaker 1: Guess what mango? What's that? Will? All right, I'm gonna 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 1: tell you about a little experiment. You know, I love 3 00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:11,560 Speaker 1: to tell you about experiments, right, So this was one 4 00:00:11,600 --> 00:00:14,200 Speaker 1: that took place back in two thousand one, and there 5 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: were fifty four undergrads and this was at the University 6 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: of Bordeaux. So they were studying wine tasting and wine 7 00:00:20,160 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: making and they were training to be experts and kind 8 00:00:23,160 --> 00:00:26,440 Speaker 1: of naturally interested in the subject of wine. And so 9 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:29,040 Speaker 1: during this specific study, there was a researcher that was 10 00:00:29,080 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: asking students to describe one glass of white wine and 11 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: one glass of red wine. And these were both just 12 00:00:34,400 --> 00:00:37,040 Speaker 1: sitting right in front of them. But of course there's 13 00:00:37,040 --> 00:00:39,600 Speaker 1: a trick here, so they didn't know that the glass 14 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:42,200 Speaker 1: of red was actually just a glass of white wine 15 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,120 Speaker 1: with a little bit of food coloring. So, I mean, 16 00:00:45,159 --> 00:00:47,080 Speaker 1: I feel like I can already guess how this ends. 17 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: Like none of them knew was white wine they were drinking, right, 18 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: and it uh. It kind of reminds you of that 19 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 1: commercial from Pizza Hut where they served this pasta in 20 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: Italy and they tried to rebrand themselves as Pasta Hut, 21 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:01,320 Speaker 1: and no one knew was from pizza. Oh man, that 22 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: was so tricky. And I'm sure those studies were equally scientific, 23 00:01:05,240 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: but but you're right, like, not one of the fifty 24 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:10,760 Speaker 1: four kids could tell the white wine was white, And 25 00:01:10,800 --> 00:01:12,959 Speaker 1: as they were writing down their notes, they were looking 26 00:01:13,000 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: for the features that you would typically find and reds, 27 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,320 Speaker 1: and even convincing themselves that they were tasting those notes 28 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: and the drink. Now, honestly, normally, I don't like these 29 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: kinds of studies because I don't love people feeling like 30 00:01:24,840 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: they've been tricked, and especially with things like art or wine, 31 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: where they're already feeling intimidated by the whole thing. And 32 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: I feel like everybody should get to enjoy those things 33 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: without worry. But today's show is all about wine crimes, 34 00:01:37,800 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: you know, the forgeries and frauds and the wine world, 35 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 1: and it is a fascinating world. And the thing that's 36 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,120 Speaker 1: so interesting to me about these cons is that the 37 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: people really really want to believe they're drinking or buying 38 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: the good stuff, even when it's really smart people drinking 39 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: a very obvious white wine and drops of food coloring 40 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: or just placed in it. And that's what today's show 41 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 1: is all about. Let's dive in y hey, their podcast listeners. 42 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm Will Pearson and as 43 00:02:24,040 --> 00:02:26,360 Speaker 1: always I'm joined by my good friend man guest Ticketer 44 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: and on the other side of the soundproof glass decanting 45 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: a bottle of what is that? It's Bartels and James 46 00:02:33,200 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: man the Wild Island Wine Spritzer, and I think he 47 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: ordered it on eBay. He was saying, that's our friend 48 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: and producer Tristan McNeil. I'm pretty sure that's just a 49 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:44,600 Speaker 1: bottle of grape soda that he put in Bartles and 50 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,960 Speaker 1: James label on And uh, we know your tricks, Tristan, 51 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: so you can't fool us, Tristan. But today's episode is 52 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: obviously about wine and wine crimes. But did you know 53 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:57,760 Speaker 1: that grape juice is actually a man made invention? So 54 00:02:57,919 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: I didn't gave actually pointed this out to me, But 55 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: just think about it, like, if the juice from a 56 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: bunch of grapes was to somehow pool in the wild, 57 00:03:04,600 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 1: it would start to ferment on its own. So in 58 00:03:06,919 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 1: order to make grape juice, we actually have to halt 59 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:12,519 Speaker 1: their natural fermentation process to stop it from being alcoholic. 60 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: So there's no such thing as all natural grape juice, 61 00:03:15,600 --> 00:03:17,639 Speaker 1: no matter what the labels tell you. You know, I've 62 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: actually never thought about that, and that is a pretty 63 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: benign case of of mislabeling. But there's so many other 64 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:27,080 Speaker 1: interesting stories of you know, many more nefarious examples, including 65 00:03:27,120 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: one of history's first wine crimes. And I know you 66 00:03:30,200 --> 00:03:31,760 Speaker 1: were doing some digging into this, So do you want 67 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: to give us the scoop? Yeah, definitely, I can do that. 68 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: So wine itself is something that's been around pretty much forever. 69 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:39,880 Speaker 1: I mean, you can go back as far as seven 70 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: thousand b C. And the Chinese were actually making wine 71 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: from fermented honey and rice and fruit. The Phoenicians were 72 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: getting into the act. They were producing and trading their 73 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: own versions throughout the Mediterranean. And for as long as 74 00:03:53,000 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: humans have been making wine, there have also been those 75 00:03:55,480 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: have been manipulating or counterfeiting it for their own game. 76 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,480 Speaker 1: And you can actually see this in Rome. So the 77 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:04,200 Speaker 1: Romans complained about phony wine flowing through the country, and 78 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: in fact, Pliny the Elder once wrote about the problem, saying, quote, 79 00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:11,400 Speaker 1: not even our nobility ever enjoys wines that are genuine. 80 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,000 Speaker 1: So wine forgeries have been this widespread problem from the start, 81 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: which you know, must have been really disheartening for Pliny 82 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: the Elder. So so why do you say that? Well, 83 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: he was also the Roman scholar who coined the famous 84 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: phrase in vino veritas or in wine, there is truth, 85 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: so he probably didn't appreciate people meddling with the wine 86 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,760 Speaker 1: or his aphorism. I like the fact that I think 87 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: we've quoted Pliny the Elder maybe three times on this 88 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: show before we got real Pliny here. We we love Pliny, 89 00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 1: or at least quoting plenty. But alright, so so fake 90 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 1: wine was definitely flowing through Rome. But but how exactly 91 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: did the scam work? So basically, counterfeiters would sometimes claim 92 00:04:50,200 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: a wine was made from a certain kind of grape 93 00:04:52,279 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 1: or even produced in a specific region, that it really wasn't. So. 94 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: For example, like the most popular wine and ancient Rome 95 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,360 Speaker 1: was Failarian wine, which was made from grapes grown on 96 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:05,680 Speaker 1: the slopes of this mountain. And this wine was somewhat 97 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,720 Speaker 1: rare and pretty expensive, but before long there were all 98 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,039 Speaker 1: these local bars serving up a never ending supply of 99 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: it at super cheap prices. And while plenty of people 100 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 1: couldn't tell the difference, there were these people with more 101 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:20,240 Speaker 1: discerning palettes like Pliny, who caught on pretty quickly. So 102 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: I'm guessing though, that wouldn't exactly stop the counterfeiters. Though, 103 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 1: no it didn't. I mean, wine forgers only became more 104 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,800 Speaker 1: common as time went on, which really prompted governments to 105 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: crack down on the crimes. So in London during the 106 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:34,119 Speaker 1: Middle Ages you actually see tavern owners had to store 107 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: their French, Spanish and German wines and separate containers and 108 00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: separate areas, so it would be harder for them to 109 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: mix the wines or even to lie about where a 110 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: certain wine came from. And if a bar keep was 111 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: caught serving fraud wine like, the punishment was that they 112 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: had to drink every single drop of it themselves. What 113 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: a harsh punish. I mean, I guess if it was 114 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,480 Speaker 1: fake wine, it probably didn't taste great, but that that 115 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: really doesn't seem like that bad of a punishment. Yeah, 116 00:05:59,880 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess some of the wine could have 117 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: been off or whatever. But Germany actually had a much 118 00:06:03,600 --> 00:06:07,279 Speaker 1: harsher policy wine counterfeiters there. It could be branded or 119 00:06:07,320 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: even hanged, and it depended on how much fraudulent wine 120 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,640 Speaker 1: they were selling and who they've been selling it to 121 00:06:13,200 --> 00:06:14,880 Speaker 1: all right, So let me get this straight. So in 122 00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 1: one country you could be looking at a punishment of 123 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: having to drink some pretty bad wine, and then another 124 00:06:20,240 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: country you might actually be hanged for the crime. I 125 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 1: mean there was a lot of bad wine. Yes, must 126 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:28,400 Speaker 1: have been really bad, so all right. So so then 127 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,440 Speaker 1: if we're talking about multiple places that this kind of 128 00:06:30,480 --> 00:06:34,039 Speaker 1: fraud was rampant all across Europe or what it definitely was. 129 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,120 Speaker 1: And during the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries there is even 130 00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: this group of so called wine doctors who started producing 131 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,160 Speaker 1: their own makeshift wines from chemicals and all sorts of 132 00:06:43,240 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 1: random fruits like apples or even raisins, and then they 133 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: tried to pass the stuff off as this really prestigious 134 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,839 Speaker 1: wine from far away regions. And this actually became such 135 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 1: a huge problem that European government started cracking down on it. 136 00:06:54,880 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 1: So you know, the British Parliament took a stab at it. 137 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 1: They passed this Adulteration of Food and Drink Acting eighteen sixty. 138 00:07:01,160 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 1: All right, So did this just put a complete stop 139 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:06,360 Speaker 1: to the whole wine fraud business or what or not 140 00:07:06,480 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: at all? I mean, the added scrutiny and growing awareness 141 00:07:09,400 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: of why fraud mostly just got criminals to think more 142 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: creatively about the whole business. I did read about this 143 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: amazing American wine scam that grape growers started during Prohibition, 144 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 1: and it was actually pretty clever. So at the time, 145 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 1: the Volstead Act made it so that, you know, that 146 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: grapes could only be grown if they were to be 147 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 1: used for nonalcoholic consumption, like you know, eating on their 148 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: own or made into grape juice or I guess, you know, 149 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: non alcoholic wine. And so this left American grape growers 150 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:38,400 Speaker 1: with two pretty bad options. They could either like rip 151 00:07:38,400 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: out all their grapevines and plan a different crop, or 152 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: try to sell the grape some other way and then 153 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: just you know, kind of hope that there would be 154 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 1: a constitutional amendment that would come along later. And so 155 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: now some owners chose the first, of course, and that 156 00:07:50,920 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: was the much safer option, and they immediately started replacing 157 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,880 Speaker 1: their grapevines with orchards. But you have these other former 158 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: winemakers who decided to try know that the second option, 159 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: and ultimately that's what actually saved the entire California wine industry. 160 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 1: I mean, that's pretty fascinating, but it was grape juice 161 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: that popular, Like, how are they still doing good business 162 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,080 Speaker 1: during this time? No, I mean, grape juice was not 163 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:16,640 Speaker 1: that popular. And so basically, the grape growers they would 164 00:08:16,640 --> 00:08:19,800 Speaker 1: they they found a loophole. Actually, it was perfectly legal 165 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 1: to produce. It was so called non alcoholic wine that 166 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:27,640 Speaker 1: could theoretically be turned into real wine by the consumers. 167 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 1: So the only catch was they had to make it 168 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: clear that fermenting the wine would be illegal. So with 169 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 1: this in mind, the vineyards started selling these quote wine bricks, 170 00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:39,280 Speaker 1: and they were basically just these big chunks of grape 171 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:43,080 Speaker 1: concentrate that came bundled with a packet of yeast. I mean, 172 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:46,400 Speaker 1: that's ridiculous. It's like the blue Apron of wine or 173 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:48,960 Speaker 1: Hello Fresh who sponsored the show. So we're gonna go 174 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: with that, that's right. The bricks also came with a 175 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: warning label that warned consumers against, you know, combining the 176 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,600 Speaker 1: concentrate in yeast with water and sugar in a sealed 177 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: pot and then and then let that pot sit in 178 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: a cooled cupboard for twenty one day straight. And so 179 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: it more than they should definitely not do that, or 180 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: else they you know, wind up with an alcoholic beverage. 181 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:11,200 Speaker 1: Even if it was a delicious alcoholic beverage, they should 182 00:09:11,240 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: definitely not do this. It feels like very specific instructions 183 00:09:15,280 --> 00:09:18,000 Speaker 1: on what not to do. Yeah, it's so subtle, right, 184 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: but I mean it actually worked incredibly well for the 185 00:09:20,840 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: grape growers and kept them afloat during America's failed attempt 186 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:27,559 Speaker 1: at sobriety. And so wine concentrates like this had actually 187 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,600 Speaker 1: been sold pre prohibition for a little less than ten 188 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: dollars a ton, but just four years into prohibition, the 189 00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:37,440 Speaker 1: price had increased by nearly four thousand percent and they 190 00:09:37,480 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: were selling for almost four hundred dollars a ton. And 191 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: so it was this rise and profits that attracted new 192 00:09:43,080 --> 00:09:47,240 Speaker 1: grape growers to Napa Valley, and among them was Caesar Mundabi. 193 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: You know, that name obviously sounds familiar to many people, 194 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 1: and he was this Minnesota grocer who began his family's 195 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: wine dynasty actually during the heart of the prohibition era. 196 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,200 Speaker 1: That's amazing, and I actually love how the story really 197 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 1: makes you root for linemakers, because that's not something that 198 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,920 Speaker 1: happens too often with wine crimes, right, I mean, especially nowadays, 199 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,679 Speaker 1: where most wine fraud tends to be perpetrated among these 200 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:11,920 Speaker 1: high end wine collectors, and so it is a little 201 00:10:11,960 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: tough to drum up sympathy when it's just like millionaires 202 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,480 Speaker 1: ripping off other millionaires. Yeah, I know what you mean. 203 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: So talking to wine frauds, did you hear about those 204 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: counterfeit wines that supposedly belonged to Thomas Jefferson that went 205 00:10:23,559 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: up for auction at Christie's in the nineteen eighties, I 206 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:28,360 Speaker 1: don't think so. So one of the bottles, which was 207 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:32,520 Speaker 1: a seventeen eighty seven Chateau Lafitte Bordeaux, was sold to 208 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,320 Speaker 1: Chris and Malcolm Forbes for a hundred and fifty six 209 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. And this is actually the most that a 210 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,800 Speaker 1: single bottle of wine had ever been sold for at 211 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: the time. So we're talking about the Forbes family, like 212 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: Forbes Magazine and all of that empire, right, and for 213 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: years this phony bottle of wine was actually the pride 214 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: of the Forbes collection. Apparently, when Malcolm Forbes learned that 215 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: he'd won the bid, he said, and this is a 216 00:10:53,640 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: direct quote, it's more fun than the opera glasses Lincoln 217 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,400 Speaker 1: was holding when he was shot. And I have those 218 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: two right, that's just such an insane statement. And I 219 00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 1: guess when you're that rich, you're just looking for ways 220 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,640 Speaker 1: to spend your money. But the craziest thing is that 221 00:11:08,679 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: the Forbes family didn't find out that they've been scammed 222 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:14,679 Speaker 1: until two decades after the fact. You know, to your 223 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,480 Speaker 1: earlier point, it is a little bit difficult to drum 224 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,920 Speaker 1: up sympathy when people are saying stuff like that. But 225 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: I'm curious, so why did it take these two decades 226 00:11:23,840 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: to figure out they've been scamped? Partly it's because the 227 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: story is just so believable. So Thomas Jefferson was famous 228 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: for his love of fine food and wine, which you'd 229 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 1: grown accustomed to during his time in Europe. Then, in fact, 230 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: during his time in the White House, Jefferson actually spent 231 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: over sixteen thousand dollars, which is about three hundred thousand 232 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 1: dollars in today's money, on wine, amassing a private collection 233 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,839 Speaker 1: of more than twenty thousand bottles. So, I mean, all 234 00:11:48,880 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: that kind of sets the stage right, Like, then you've 235 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: got Forbes who hears the story of a well known 236 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:58,400 Speaker 1: German wine enthusiast who supposedly like found Jefferson's wine hidden 237 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: behind a brick wall in Paris, and there was little 238 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 1: reason to doubt him. I mean, the bottles even had 239 00:12:03,000 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: the right dates and the initials T h J on them, 240 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: and they were etched into the bottles, so it all 241 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: seemed real and that makes sense. But but how did 242 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: the Forbes family figure out they've been duped? Well, the 243 00:12:13,160 --> 00:12:14,880 Speaker 1: truth actually came out thanks to the efforts of a 244 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 1: different billionaire wine collector, so basically the German forger, this 245 00:12:18,559 --> 00:12:21,720 Speaker 1: guy named Hardy rodent Stock. He just wasn't content with 246 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 1: selling one bottle that he discovered behind the wall. He 247 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: also found four more bottles, which he sold for half 248 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 1: a million dollars to William Coke and you probably recognize 249 00:12:30,760 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: that name. He's the lesser known but still super wealthy 250 00:12:33,200 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: Coke brother who isn't as tangled up in politics. And 251 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: for a long time Coke also believed his bottles were legitimate, 252 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:42,520 Speaker 1: but that changed in two thousand five when the Museum 253 00:12:42,520 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: of Fine Arts in Boston was preparing to exhibit his 254 00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:48,319 Speaker 1: wine collection to the public, and basically the museum contacted 255 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: the Thomas Jefferson Foundation at Monticello, but none of the 256 00:12:51,760 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: historians could actually verify that the bottles belonged to Jefferson. 257 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:57,400 Speaker 1: In fact, all of the evidence that they had on 258 00:12:57,480 --> 00:13:00,960 Speaker 1: hand pointed to the contrary. So what kind of evidence 259 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 1: are we talking about. Well, Jefferson actually kept meticulous records 260 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 1: on everything, you know, Jefferson being Jefferson, and this included 261 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,320 Speaker 1: all the wines he'd ever bought while in France. And 262 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:14,400 Speaker 1: according to one of Monticello's senior historians, and here I'm 263 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: just going to quote the note he wrote in his 264 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 1: vast records of over sixty thousand documents, there was nothing 265 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,160 Speaker 1: that suggested Jefferson had ever ordered any of these wines. 266 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 1: In the so called Jefferson Bottles, there were about a 267 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 1: dozen bottles, including seventeen eighty four and a seventeen eighty 268 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: seven Chateau de Kim, a seventeen seven Lafitte or Margo. 269 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: Most of them were seventeen eighty seven, a vintage Jefferson 270 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 1: never ordered in his life. Wow. So, I mean that 271 00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: is pretty compelling evidence, but meticulous or not. I mean, 272 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 1: there's always the chance that Jefferson made a mistake in 273 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:48,240 Speaker 1: his records, right, Yeah, that's true, which is why Bill 274 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: Coke actually leaned on a private investigator and a former 275 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: FBI agent. This guy named Jim Elroy to get to 276 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: the bottom of things. All right, I definitely want to 277 00:13:57,040 --> 00:13:59,160 Speaker 1: hear all this panned out. But before you cluison, let's 278 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 1: take a quick break. You're listening to Part Time Genius 279 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: and we're talking about the most famous wine crimes in history. 280 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:20,080 Speaker 1: All right, mango, So what happened with Elroy's investigation? I'm 281 00:14:20,120 --> 00:14:22,560 Speaker 1: assuming he found a way to prove that the Jefferson 282 00:14:22,600 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 1: wine was fake, right, So he did, but it was 283 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: not easy. So at first he started looking for ways 284 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:30,800 Speaker 1: to prove that the wine itself didn't really date back 285 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 1: to the eighteenth century. And the tricky part is finding 286 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,520 Speaker 1: a way to do it without opening the bottles, right, Like, 287 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, just in cases hunch was wrong. You don't 288 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,880 Speaker 1: want to mess up these wonderful bottles of wine. So 289 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:44,800 Speaker 1: this is kind of amazing. But Elroy found a solution 290 00:14:44,840 --> 00:14:47,720 Speaker 1: in the research of this French physicist named Philipp Hubert. 291 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 1: And Hubert found a way to use low level gamma 292 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: ray detection to date wine without actually having to remove 293 00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 1: it from the bottle. Wait, so how do how does 294 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,200 Speaker 1: that work? Basically, you try to determine if the wine 295 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: contains any races of caesium seven, and this is a 296 00:15:03,080 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: radioactive isotope that doesn't occur in nature. So prior to 297 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: the Atomic Age, this isotope just straight up didn't exist 298 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,520 Speaker 1: on Earth. But after the use of nuclear bombs, it 299 00:15:12,560 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: was literally everywhere, including like the atmosphere, the rain, soil, grapes, 300 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:20,960 Speaker 1: and eventually in wine. Alright, So so this test can't 301 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: determine exactly when a wine was bottled, but it can 302 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: at least tell you if the bottle was before or 303 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,080 Speaker 1: after what like the mid forties or so exactly, which 304 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:31,400 Speaker 1: would have been enough for Elroy, like if the bottles 305 00:15:31,440 --> 00:15:34,440 Speaker 1: contained season one seven, then they couldn't have been bottled 306 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,440 Speaker 1: in the eighteenth century. But Hubert's tests actually came back negative, 307 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: which proved the wine had been bottled prior to the 308 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 1: Atomic Age, though not necessarily as far back as Jefferson. 309 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:46,600 Speaker 1: Oh wow, so that's a pretty good curb also, so 310 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: Elroy then had to come up with a plan B. 311 00:15:48,720 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: So so what did he do? Yeah, Elroy went back 312 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: to the drawing board and he started assembling this crack 313 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: team of wine fraudc experts, including a retired Scotland yard inspector, 314 00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:00,280 Speaker 1: a former m I five agent, and even a master 315 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 1: glass engraver. And since efforts to uncover fraud in the 316 00:16:03,720 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: wine itself had failed, the team turned their attention to 317 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: the other way to counterfeit, one, which is just by 318 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: messing with the bottle. And this is where the expert 319 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: engraver comes in, because the team was actually able to 320 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: prove that the etched initials on the bottle had been 321 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: done with an electric dentist drill, which of course was 322 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:22,440 Speaker 1: not a thing in the eighteenth century. Wow, I mean, 323 00:16:22,440 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 1: like it's so crazy that that was the deciding factor. 324 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm kind of guessing they wish they'd looked 325 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,400 Speaker 1: closer at the bottle before they started doing all those 326 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: season test Mean, as interesting as that is, because I'm 327 00:16:32,720 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 1: guessing these physicists don't come cheap for that kind of investigation. Yeah, 328 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,240 Speaker 1: I mean we didn't even get a detail there, because 329 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:41,160 Speaker 1: that part wasn't easy either. Like Elroy had personally flown 330 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: to the French Italian border and he delivered the bottles 331 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: in a bulletproof case and and then he barely carried 332 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: out the experiment a mile underground. And this was to 333 00:16:51,040 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: prevent interference from atmospheric gamma rays. Like it was just 334 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 1: way more complicated than taking a closer look at the glass, 335 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,360 Speaker 1: But in the end, Elroy was able to prove the 336 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 1: bottles were and in two thousand six, Bill Coke filed 337 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,919 Speaker 1: the lawsuit against Hardy Rodenstock in New York. You know, 338 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:07,440 Speaker 1: the timing of all of this is also super interesting 339 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,160 Speaker 1: because it was around this same time, you know, you'd 340 00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,159 Speaker 1: be looking at the opposite side of the country that 341 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,120 Speaker 1: probably the most notorious wine counterfeiter to date was just 342 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,320 Speaker 1: starting to come into his own Yeah. I mean, I'm 343 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: guessing you're talking about Rudy, right, Yeah, So this is 344 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: Rudy carneiloh one. And for those who aren't familiar with 345 00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: his story, Rudy was this mysterious young wine collector who 346 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: made a name for himself in the l A wine scene. 347 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:31,639 Speaker 1: And this was in the early two thousand's And I 348 00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: say mysterious because he sort of came out of nowhere 349 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,440 Speaker 1: and nobody really knew much about him at the time. Now, 350 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:40,199 Speaker 1: this should have raised some suspicions in this upper crust 351 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: and the wine circles there that he managed to infiltrate, 352 00:17:43,119 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: but you know, most of his new friends chose to 353 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,040 Speaker 1: ignore the mystery just on account of his deep pockets. 354 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 1: He would often pay the bill at these lavish dinners 355 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: and wine tastings, you know, for all the other enthusiasts 356 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: that were there, and he seemed to have this knack 357 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:59,120 Speaker 1: for tracking down these hard to come by vintages and 358 00:17:59,119 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: and to get them at these uncommonly good price. Of course, again, 359 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: these folks should have been suspicious Rudy, but they weren't. Yeah. 360 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: I mean, he's sort of like that guy who made 361 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: the room. Like nobody knew where he was from or 362 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: how he got his money. But hey, he's generous and 363 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:14,480 Speaker 1: fun to me around, So why rock the boat with 364 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:16,840 Speaker 1: any questions? Yeah, I mean, that seems to be what 365 00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:19,159 Speaker 1: was going on, and it was really all about the 366 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: wine for the people that he ran with. For instance, 367 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:24,680 Speaker 1: one of the groups Rudy frequented was called angry Men, 368 00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: and they called themselves that because of how mad they 369 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,120 Speaker 1: would get whenever they took a nice bottle of wine 370 00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: to a party, only to find out that everyone else 371 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,280 Speaker 1: had brought the cheap stuff, you know, So that these 372 00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:37,479 Speaker 1: angry Men dinners, all the guests would bring these really 373 00:18:37,640 --> 00:18:41,439 Speaker 1: fancy and expensive bottles of wine and everyone would just 374 00:18:41,480 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: get slashed, and they would drink as much as like 375 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,479 Speaker 1: two hundred thousand dollars worth of wine in a single evening. 376 00:18:47,880 --> 00:18:51,400 Speaker 1: Two dollars. That's insane. Yeah, I haven't drunk that much 377 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: in one night ever. Yes, yeah, dropping those big bills. 378 00:18:56,720 --> 00:18:59,280 Speaker 1: But you know, it wasn't long before Rudy got into 379 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 1: the auction see and and sort of became the go 380 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:04,480 Speaker 1: to guy for rare burgundy. And he was buying and 381 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,360 Speaker 1: selling some of the finest wines of the twentieth century 382 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,880 Speaker 1: and making bank in the process. And his biggest payday 383 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 1: came in two thousand and six when he sold almost 384 00:19:13,160 --> 00:19:17,960 Speaker 1: twenty five million dollars worth of wine in a single auction. Now, 385 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:21,240 Speaker 1: the previous sales record had been something like fifteen million, 386 00:19:21,280 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: so we're talking a huge gain on that. But the 387 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: writing was already on the wall. So a year or 388 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 1: two later, a bunch of bottles of this rare burgundy 389 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: from the domain Posant wine house. They began to appear, 390 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:35,400 Speaker 1: with vintages dating between nineteen forty five and nineteen seventy one, 391 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 1: and the head of this winery, Lauren Posas, found this 392 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 1: to be exceptionally odd because his family hadn't started making 393 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: this particular red wine until nineteen eighty two, so knowing 394 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:49,600 Speaker 1: something was up, he launched his own international investigation into 395 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: Rudy's shady dealings. Now he did this mostly as a 396 00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: way to defend the good name of Burgundy. As he 397 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:57,680 Speaker 1: later told a reporter, the fakes are like a piece 398 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:00,200 Speaker 1: of dirt on the name of Burgundy, and I wanted 399 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:03,400 Speaker 1: to wash it off. I mean, that's funny, growing from 400 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,960 Speaker 1: like a wine growing region, Like the idea of dirt 401 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: on it doesn't seem that bad. But I love his 402 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 1: intensity and his love for Burgundy. I mean his family 403 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: name was on the line too. But around the same 404 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: time Ponceaux was conducting his investigation, you look across the pond, 405 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,960 Speaker 1: you've got Bill Coke, who was launching another one of 406 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: his own. So he'd been burned so badly on his 407 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: Jefferson bottles that Coke started scouring his collection for other 408 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 1: potential fakes, and he actually found dozens, I mean, many 409 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:36,160 Speaker 1: of which had come directly or at least indirectly from Rudy. Meanwhile, 410 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:39,159 Speaker 1: more and more suspicious bottles were popping up at auctions, 411 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: and this was drawing the attention of the FBI as well. 412 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,720 Speaker 1: So I'd actually read about the raid on Rudy's condo 413 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: back in two thousand twelve, and his whole place was 414 00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: decked out like this makeshift factory. They found uh bottles 415 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: of wine just soaking in the kitchen sink so the 416 00:20:53,920 --> 00:20:56,199 Speaker 1: labels could be easily removed, and and there were all 417 00:20:56,240 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: these like quirking tools and thousands and thousands of fake 418 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:02,280 Speaker 1: wine labels that he'd forged from this enormous laser printer. 419 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: And you know, of course they were all for really 420 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,560 Speaker 1: prestigious wines from Brigadi and Bordeaux. Yeah, that's right. And 421 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 1: maybe most damning of all, the FBI found all these 422 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:13,720 Speaker 1: intricate tasting notes that Rudy had assembled, so apparently he'd 423 00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 1: been taking cheaper wines, mixing them together, and then you know, 424 00:21:17,160 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: putting them in these more expensive bottles, sometimes also altering 425 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:23,359 Speaker 1: the bottles to make them seem more valuable as well. 426 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: I mean, the worst part for him was that in 427 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,159 Speaker 1: a lot of cases, Rudy's formulas were written out for 428 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:31,520 Speaker 1: the different wines that he planned to counterfeit. So basically 429 00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:34,159 Speaker 1: he was making these imitations of rare wines that he 430 00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 1: had tasted once before, but he wasn't exactly a hack, 431 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: like he was really exacting about how to best approximate 432 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:44,040 Speaker 1: the taste of each one so that it actually matched 433 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,879 Speaker 1: the label. Huh. I mean that's really interesting because I've 434 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: heard that with rare old wines like this, most people 435 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: are pretty clueless about the taste, and sometimes you're dealing 436 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: with wine from a hundred years ago, so nobody knows 437 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:58,080 Speaker 1: what's supposed to taste like. And they probably paid so 438 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,200 Speaker 1: much for it anyway that they aren't in any sort 439 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,240 Speaker 1: of hurried to open it. Yeah. I mean, the care 440 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: he showed was really unusual, and especially considering how unlikely 441 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,000 Speaker 1: it was that collectors would ever even open these bottles. 442 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:12,920 Speaker 1: But in the end, Rudy's extensive notes and this condo 443 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:16,119 Speaker 1: full of equipment really shed some light on his overall plan. 444 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: So by bidding high for wines at auction, Rudy had 445 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,480 Speaker 1: driven up the market values and and that really paved 446 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: the way for higher returns when he later released all 447 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,840 Speaker 1: these counterfeit bottles back into circulation. All told, Rudy had 448 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,320 Speaker 1: flooded the market with an estimated fifteen thousand bottles of 449 00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,199 Speaker 1: counterfeit wine over the course of about a decade or so. 450 00:22:36,000 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 1: So despite the fact that he was artfully blending these drinks, 451 00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:41,640 Speaker 1: the FBI had to take him down and take him 452 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 1: down hard. So two years after the raid, Rudy was 453 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: sentenced to ten years in prison, which made him the 454 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,679 Speaker 1: first person in the US to ever be convicted of 455 00:22:49,720 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: wine fraud. I mean that itself is crazy, right, I mean, 456 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,119 Speaker 1: the first person to ever be convicted of the wine fraud. 457 00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: So I know there's a little bit left to say 458 00:22:58,840 --> 00:23:01,480 Speaker 1: about Rudy kern Y Allen's case, and I thought it 459 00:23:01,560 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: might be fun to talk about some of the more 460 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: telltale signs of wine fraud. But before we get into 461 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:20,680 Speaker 1: any of that, let's take another break. Welcome back to 462 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius, where we're talking wine frauds. Okay, so, 463 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: so well, I do want to make sure we don't 464 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,800 Speaker 1: overlook an important detail that you mentioned about Rudy's case, 465 00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:30,720 Speaker 1: which is that he produced an absolutely insane amount of 466 00:23:30,720 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: bake wine, especially for a one man operation. And I 467 00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: want to say, you said it was like fifteen thousand 468 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,600 Speaker 1: bottles that he manufactured. Yeah, it's I mean, it's a 469 00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:42,320 Speaker 1: tremendous number. And that high volume is actually something that 470 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:45,000 Speaker 1: his supporters have pointed to his evidence that he couldn't 471 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: have done what he did. And there's actually a fair 472 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 1: amount of evidence that suggests Rudy wasn't acting alone. You know. 473 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,240 Speaker 1: For instance, according to investigators, Rudy had these two uncles 474 00:23:54,240 --> 00:24:00,240 Speaker 1: who were supposedly notorious Indonesian bankropt Really that's amazing. Yeah, 475 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,440 Speaker 1: the story just gets better and better as a dig 476 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,760 Speaker 1: deeper into it. And they were pretty good at their 477 00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: work too. So they're responsible for about eight hundred million 478 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,960 Speaker 1: dollars and stolen funds, most of which has never been recovered. 479 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:15,120 Speaker 1: There's also a paper trail that shows Rudy wire tens 480 00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: of millions of dollars to his brothers in Hong Kong 481 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: and Indonesia during the height of his scheme. Well, I mean, 482 00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,200 Speaker 1: that would certainly explain where his money was coming from, 483 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: as well as who might have been helping with his operation. 484 00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:28,400 Speaker 1: But still you've got to think, if his uncles are 485 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,120 Speaker 1: such well known criminals, you think that the FBI would 486 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:33,639 Speaker 1: have taken an interest much sooner. I mean, why did 487 00:24:33,640 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 1: it take p I s to figure this stuff out? 488 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:37,280 Speaker 1: I mean, I'd wondered about that too, And it turns 489 00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:39,880 Speaker 1: out that a big reason why his family's criminal connections 490 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 1: went unnoticed for so long was that Rudy was using 491 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: a fake name the whole time. According to one of 492 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: Bill Cooke's investigators, Rudy Kerney Owen is just a made 493 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: up name from two famous Indonesian badminton players. How great, Yeah, 494 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: I thought it sounded familiar. It's just everyone knows Batman players. 495 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,359 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so um it's actually kind of awesome. 496 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:04,879 Speaker 1: But I'm curious whatever happened to Rudy's fifteen thousand fakes, Like, 497 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,160 Speaker 1: are are they still floating around on the market? Well, 498 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:09,240 Speaker 1: a lot of them, definitely are. I think only about 499 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:11,439 Speaker 1: a third of Rudy's wines have been accounted for it 500 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,640 Speaker 1: last count, and most of those have since been destroyed 501 00:25:14,680 --> 00:25:17,200 Speaker 1: at landfill sites. And all of this is done under 502 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: the supervision of US marshals. And it's actually kind of 503 00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 1: a bummer when you think about how selective Rudy was 504 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 1: about his blending. Yeah, I mean, the bottle is definitely 505 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: weren't worth what he was charging. But this wasn't stuff 506 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: you'd find on the average store shelf either. I know, 507 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 1: as you were describing the process, like it made me 508 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,119 Speaker 1: want to taste some of these wines, and it is 509 00:25:35,160 --> 00:25:38,040 Speaker 1: such a shame. Still, a lot of good has come 510 00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 1: out of these two big cases we've been talking about, 511 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: because obviously rodent stock was kind of the precursor, and 512 00:25:43,119 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: then you've got a Kerney owen, and both of those 513 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: methods taught fraud investigators so many tricks for how to 514 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 1: tell an authentic bottle from a fake. And obviously it's 515 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:54,480 Speaker 1: no coincidence that Bill Coke was one of the pivotal 516 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: figures and bringing this down, because you know, he really 517 00:25:57,600 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 1: understood that the key to authentication was attention to the 518 00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,800 Speaker 1: wine packaging and not to the wine itself. Yeah, and 519 00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:05,600 Speaker 1: that makes a lot of sense. I was actually reading 520 00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 1: up on some of the more tech based solutions out there, 521 00:26:08,080 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: and most of them have lower success rates than simply 522 00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,439 Speaker 1: looking for discrepancies and the labels or the bottles. You know. 523 00:26:14,480 --> 00:26:16,359 Speaker 1: For example, there's this device that came out a few 524 00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: years ago called the Corvan system, and it's basically this 525 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: fancy corkscrew that lets you extract wine from a bottle 526 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: without having to remove the cork. So you just stick 527 00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: this thin hollow needle through the cork and then the 528 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: wine is pushed into the holes on the side of 529 00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: the needle, and then it carries it through the device 530 00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,159 Speaker 1: and lastly it's pumped into your glass. Wow. Yeah, and 531 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: so so the whole idea was that the auction houses 532 00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: could use this tool as a way to let bidders 533 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,879 Speaker 1: sample the wine prior to the sale, you know, without 534 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,600 Speaker 1: having to open and then devalue the whole bottle. I mean, 535 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:48,760 Speaker 1: that's amazing, and it actually sounds amazing and theory. But 536 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:51,160 Speaker 1: you know, like we've already talked about, most people don't 537 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: know what old wine is supposed to taste like, right, Well, yeah, 538 00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: and that's not even the only problem. So, according to 539 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 1: Maureen Downey, who's one of the world's leading wine authenticators, 540 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: counterfeit or are already using the Corevin device to remove 541 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,399 Speaker 1: fine wine from the bottle and then just pump the 542 00:27:04,480 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: cheaper stuff in in its place. So what was supposed 543 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: to be like this revolutionary tool for verifying wines is 544 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: now providing one of the easiest ways to create fake ones. 545 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,360 Speaker 1: I mean, that's terrible and it must have been so 546 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 1: frustrating through whoever came up with this ingenious solution. But 547 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: you know, it is funny that the tool I've heard 548 00:27:23,560 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: is most helpful for detecting counterfeit wine is actually like 549 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,879 Speaker 1: a super low tech one, and that's the jeweler's loop, 550 00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,119 Speaker 1: which is the round magnifying device that jewelers used for 551 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: I guess, finding imperfections and diamonds and rubies and whatever. 552 00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: But with one of those, you can actually spot all 553 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: kinds of inconsistencies, like you can find thumb prints on 554 00:27:42,359 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 1: wax seals that should have been applied by machines, or 555 00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,720 Speaker 1: other subtle differences like label colors, like the kind of 556 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:51,680 Speaker 1: details that point to inject printing over actually I guess 557 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: like old fashioned ways of making labels. Yeah, that makes sense, 558 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:56,639 Speaker 1: And I've even heard about some of the more glaring 559 00:27:56,720 --> 00:27:58,760 Speaker 1: errors that could be spotted just with the naked eye, 560 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 1: as long as you know what you're looking for. Like, 561 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 1: sometimes counterfeiters get pretty lazy and they wind up misspelling 562 00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,159 Speaker 1: the name of a wine, or they may release a 563 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,760 Speaker 1: particular vintage and a larger size bottle than it was 564 00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:14,160 Speaker 1: ever actually sold in. But probably my favorite dumb mistake though, 565 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 1: is this counterfeiter who tried to sell this supposedly very 566 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: old wine, but he ended up putting it into bottles 567 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 1: that had a recycling logo on the bottom. That's incredible. So, 568 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:26,679 Speaker 1: I mean, it really seems that the best way to 569 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: protect yourself against wine fraud is just to be super 570 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: knowledgeable about what you're trying to buy, right Yeah, And 571 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,800 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that doesn't seem like too much 572 00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,400 Speaker 1: to ask, given the price labels that we're dealing with, 573 00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:39,760 Speaker 1: and you know, the kinds of wines that that get counterfeited. 574 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: Not to mention how extensive the problem of wine fraud 575 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: seems to be now right, and and nowadays there's even 576 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,120 Speaker 1: an option to outsource that attention to detail and how 577 00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: do you do that? So big name cases like Rudy's 578 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: have actually shined a spotlight on just how pervasive the 579 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,440 Speaker 1: problem with wine fraud is. And you know Maureen Downey, 580 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,040 Speaker 1: who you talked about earlier, she actually estimates that the 581 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: total value of all fake wine on the market is 582 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,720 Speaker 1: about three billion dollars. I mean, that's just unbelievable, and 583 00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:09,280 Speaker 1: over half a billion of that actually comes from Rudy alone. 584 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,440 Speaker 1: But other wine industry estimates say that at this point, 585 00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:15,920 Speaker 1: around twenty of all wine and circulation is counterfeit. So 586 00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:19,200 Speaker 1: I guess like the need for wine authentication is definitely there, 587 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: and consultants like Downey have actually been stepping up to 588 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,560 Speaker 1: meet the challenge in lots of different ways, and one 589 00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,760 Speaker 1: of those is through a website that Downy here self 590 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:29,719 Speaker 1: started called wine fraud dot com. I haven't actually been 591 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: to the site. So it's just like an online guide 592 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: for spotting forgeries. Yeah, I mean. It has tutorials of 593 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,600 Speaker 1: like how to recognize fraud and and there's also like 594 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: a gallery of legitimate samples of popular wine so you 595 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: can actually compare the real things to any potential fakes 596 00:29:42,840 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: in their collections. And on the paid version of the site, 597 00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:48,600 Speaker 1: because there's always a paid version, users can actually team 598 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: up with experts to get their bottles verified. Well that 599 00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:53,200 Speaker 1: does sound pretty handy. I guess if you're dropping a 600 00:29:53,280 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 1: thousand bucks or so on the bottom of wine, you 601 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,400 Speaker 1: might as well pay a little extra to make sure 602 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: that this thing is legitimate. Yeah, I mean, or you 603 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:04,720 Speaker 1: can just switch to beer. But good advice. But speaking 604 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:06,720 Speaker 1: of things to watch out where I I do think 605 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:08,880 Speaker 1: it's time to pop the cork on today's backed off, 606 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: So let's dive in. So I'm gonna kick this off. 607 00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:23,040 Speaker 1: Did you know that the French sometimes eat rats and 608 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: it's a dish occasionally served in Bordeaux, but you only 609 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,640 Speaker 1: use alcoholic rats who've been hanging out in wine cellars. 610 00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,680 Speaker 1: Basically you brushed them with lots of olive oil and shallots, 611 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,920 Speaker 1: and apparently they're grilled over wine barrels to get even 612 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 1: more of that winey flavor. It's supposed to be delicious. 613 00:30:39,800 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think i'd probably need a few 614 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: glasses of actual wine before trying that. But have you 615 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: heard about this wine called nineteen Crimes? So it's almost 616 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: like Pokemon Go meets wine. So the nineteen Crimes refers 617 00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: to the British prisoners who were sent to Australia and 618 00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:56,760 Speaker 1: each of them had been accused of one of the 619 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:00,000 Speaker 1: nineteen crimes of the time. I just read about this recently, 620 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 1: But the crimes were things like impersonating an Egyptian and 621 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: stealing letters and anyway. You could hold up a wine 622 00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:09,760 Speaker 1: bottle to your phone and it tells you the crime stories. 623 00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: So you get some delicious notes of history with each glass. 624 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 1: And apparently the gimmick works because sales have been great. 625 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,240 Speaker 1: That's pretty cool. So there's this two hundred mile pilgrimage 626 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: from Rome to Ortona in Italy called the Camino de 627 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,240 Speaker 1: San Tomasso. UM. I don't know if you've seen this 628 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: trend recently, but like walking these Comino pilgrimages, has has 629 00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,920 Speaker 1: just seen this huge resurgence. But at the end of 630 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,959 Speaker 1: the road in Ortona, there's something wonderful waiting for you. 631 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: A wine fountain. It runs twenty four hours a day, 632 00:31:38,240 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: seven days a week, and it's there specifically for thirsty 633 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: pilgrims and also I guess tourists, but they do ask 634 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,440 Speaker 1: you to keep it to one glass, and according to 635 00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:50,920 Speaker 1: Towny's quote, it isn't for drunkards or louts. All right, well, 636 00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:52,920 Speaker 1: this is super short one, but did you realize there's 637 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: a specially minimally fermented wine that gets used at mass occasionally, 638 00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: so it's made for priests who are recovering i'llcoholics. I 639 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: like that. So I don't think you and I were 640 00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: hip to the four loco trend, but lucky for us, 641 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,440 Speaker 1: we can still get in on this buck fast tonic wine. 642 00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,280 Speaker 1: It's Scottish for logo, it's it's proved by monks and 643 00:32:15,560 --> 00:32:18,680 Speaker 1: it's a fairly fient alcohol by volume, so you know 644 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,000 Speaker 1: it's gonna get you drunk and drop for drop. It 645 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: also contains approximately as much caffeine as six cups of coffee. 646 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,560 Speaker 1: It's basically a recipe for disaster and and people have 647 00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: been quick to link it to crimes. Supposedly it led 648 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,480 Speaker 1: to over five thousand penny crimes and fights in a 649 00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,920 Speaker 1: small region of Scotland over two or three years. But 650 00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 1: the funniest thing I've read about it was this review 651 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,520 Speaker 1: and Thrillist that said it's the scourge of the drinking 652 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:44,320 Speaker 1: class in the UK and the most polarizing thing to 653 00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: come for monks since the bowl cut. That's pretty great. 654 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 1: I do have to admit that any fact off that 655 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: includes the words Scottish for loco is something that deserves 656 00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:57,240 Speaker 1: a trophy. So so Mango, I'm gonna give you this one. 657 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: Thank you, and that's it for today's show. If we've 658 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:03,920 Speaker 1: forgotten any great facts about wine or wine fraud, we'd 659 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: love to hear those from. You can always email us 660 00:33:06,320 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: part Time Genius and how Stuff Works dot com. You 661 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 1: can also call our seven fact hotline that's one eight 662 00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: four four pt Genius, or hit us up on Facebook 663 00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: or Twitter. Thanks so much for listening, Thanks again for listening. 664 00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:32,920 Speaker 1: Part Time Genius is a production of how stuff works 665 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 1: and wouldn't be possible without several brilliant people who do 666 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: the important things we couldn't even begin to understand. Tristan 667 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: McNeil does the editing thing. Noel Brown made the theme 668 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,280 Speaker 1: song and does the MIXI mixy sound thing. Jerry Rowland 669 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:47,480 Speaker 1: does the exact producer thing. Gave Bluesier is our lead researcher, 670 00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: with support from the Research Army including Austin Thompson, Nolan 671 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: Brown and Lucas Adams and Eve Jeff Cook gets the 672 00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,000 Speaker 1: show to your ears. Good job, Eves. If you like 673 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: what you heard, we hope you'll subscribe, And if you 674 00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:58,920 Speaker 1: really really like what you've heard, maybe you could leave 675 00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: a good review for us. Do we do? We forget Jason? 676 00:34:01,680 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: Jason who