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Speaker 1: This is Bloombird Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio.

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Speaker 1: It's not all about dance. Video is fun and games.

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Speaker 1: TikTok is once again under fire over security and child

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Speaker 1: safety concerns. Indiana has filed two novel lawsuits against the

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Speaker 1: Chinese Zone social media platform. The state claims that the

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Speaker 1: at mis leads consumers by exposing children to inappropriate content

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Speaker 1: and allowing China access to their data. FBI Director Christopher

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Speaker 1: Ray warned about the dangers of TikTok while speaking at

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Speaker 1: the University of Michigan this month. The idea of entrusting

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Speaker 1: that much data, that much ability to shape content and

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Speaker 1: engage in influence operations, that much access to people's devices,

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Speaker 1: in effect, to that government is something they concerned it.

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Speaker 1: My guess is Fred Hate, a law professor at Indiana

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Speaker 1: University who specializes in information privacy. Fred, this is the

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Speaker 1: first time a state has sued TikTok. So why is

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Speaker 1: the ag bringing the suit? Well, I think there are

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Speaker 1: a bunch of explanations to that very good question. One is,

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Speaker 1: I think the Attorney General is legitimately worried about some

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Speaker 1: of the issues, and particularly the exposure of children to

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Speaker 1: material that may violate state law or may otherwise be harmful.

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Speaker 1: I think another is, you know, Attorney generals are almost

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Speaker 1: always thought of as aspiring governors, and it's an attention

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Speaker 1: getting thing to do. And you know, that's one reason

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Speaker 1: why I think sometimes we see a g's go out

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Speaker 1: on their own rather than be part of a group

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Speaker 1: investigation so that they get identified with doing this. And also,

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Speaker 1: you know, I suspect I haven't talked with him about this,

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Speaker 1: but that he was feeling that the pace of some

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Speaker 1: of the current investigations wasn't fast enough and that one

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Speaker 1: way to try to move the whole process along was

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Speaker 1: to bring a lawsuit so that then they could start

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Speaker 1: the issue of discovery and getting the information that might

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Speaker 1: help tell them whether there's something there or not. So

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Speaker 1: the Indiana Attorney General is claiming that TikTok misleads consumers

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Speaker 1: parents about the age appropriateness of its content. Right, So

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Speaker 1: there're two lawsuits. One lawsuit is claiming exactly what you said,

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Speaker 1: and what they're really saying is that TikTok is not

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Speaker 1: behaving consistent with the requirements of the Apple Store and

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Speaker 1: the Androids Store, so that they're labeling of their app

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Speaker 1: in terms of its age appropriateness is not accurate. And

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Speaker 1: so the legal claim there is that they're misleading apple

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Speaker 1: and androids, but that the effect is to mislead parent

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Speaker 1: and people in Indiana. And then the other claim is

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Speaker 1: that TikTok is claiming that it does not shared customer

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Speaker 1: data with the Chinese government, and the Attorney General is

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Speaker 1: alleging that they do. Now, that's not illegal to share

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Speaker 1: information with the government. Lots of social media sites share

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Speaker 1: information with the government, including with the US government. The

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Speaker 1: argument would be that it's a fraud to say you're

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Speaker 1: not sharing when in fact you are sharing. Is it

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Speaker 1: going to be difficult to prove that TikTok is not

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Speaker 1: describing accurately the appropriateness of its app for children, because

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Speaker 1: whether there's enough notification or whether it's misleading, could that

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Speaker 1: be in the eye of the beholder. It will be

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Speaker 1: very complicated to prove, because especial it's not enough to

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Speaker 1: just say it's misleading. You're gonna have to meet some

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Speaker 1: other part of a legal test if need upon exactly

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Speaker 1: which law is being applied, But generally you would have

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Speaker 1: to show that it's misleading and that it's material, that

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Speaker 1: it's misleading in a way that consumers would care about,

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Speaker 1: and then that it's either not easily detected or not

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Speaker 1: easily avoided, because you know, sometimes if you're misled about something,

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Speaker 1: but if you just open your eyes you can see

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Speaker 1: that it's not the way it was laid out to be,

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Speaker 1: then it's okay. So they're gonna have to show a

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Speaker 1: lot of things. And a related issue is is it

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Speaker 1: a pattern of this? I mean, we all filters let

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Speaker 1: something through that somebody doesn't like, and so that's not

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Speaker 1: going to be enough to just show, hey, you know,

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Speaker 1: my ten year old son got something on TikTok that

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Speaker 1: was inappropriate. You're going to have to show that this

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Speaker 1: is a regular pattern and that TikTok knows about it

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Speaker 1: or isn't acting reasonably to prevent it. And I think

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Speaker 1: that will actually be very hard to show, because you know,

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Speaker 1: anyone who uses the Internet knows first of all that

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Speaker 1: a sense is often in the eye of the beholder,

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Speaker 1: and second of all that even the best filters, the

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Speaker 1: best design filters, are easily evated. Now, as far as

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Speaker 1: the second lawsuit, that seems even more difficult to prove

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Speaker 1: a measing that's something the government's investigating, right, and it

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Speaker 1: is very difficult to prove. And it's also very difficult

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Speaker 1: what happens even if you do prove it, because historically

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Speaker 1: attorneys general have argued that social media, like all other companies,

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Speaker 1: should share information with the government when legally required to

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Speaker 1: do so. And so when the Attorney Journal of Indiana's

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Speaker 1: conducting investigation and want to record from, you know, a

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Speaker 1: technology company or a social media company, he expects that

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Speaker 1: they will comply with a subpoena or with a requirement

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Speaker 1: that they share data. And so it's a little hard

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Speaker 1: to argue that he expects that they will not comply

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Speaker 1: with Chinese law or a Chinese demand for data. And

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Speaker 1: so I think this will be the harder case, and

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Speaker 1: frankly could get moved to get treated as a federal

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Speaker 1: question that really has to be dealt with at the

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Speaker 1: federal level. A spokesperson for the a g. S Office

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Speaker 1: said they decided the danger was high enough and they

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Speaker 1: had sufficient evidence to move ahead with filing the suit.

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Speaker 1: So we shall see what happens. What is the law

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Speaker 1: as far as collecting children's information? Do you need parental permission?

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Speaker 1: And if so, how do you get that is it

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Speaker 1: one of those I agreed checkboxes, our trips to certain cynicism.

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Speaker 1: It is. I mean, you, of course are exactly right,

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Speaker 1: and so we're only talking online. There's no law protecting

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Speaker 1: children in the offline world. So the Children's Online Privacy

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Speaker 1: Protection at KAPPA requires that if you provide services to

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Speaker 1: people under thirteen, or if you are targeting people under thirteen,

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Speaker 1: so like your Disney or your you know you're doing

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Speaker 1: things that would be expected to reach the people under thirteen,

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Speaker 1: then you must take reasonable steps to verify that you

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Speaker 1: have parental consent, and you must make it possible for

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Speaker 1: the parent to updated deleted their limits on certain sensitive

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Speaker 1: data that you aren't supposed to collect. The problem is

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Speaker 1: how do you verify parental content? And it's a really

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Speaker 1: hard problem. I mean, we've been working on this problem

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Speaker 1: for twenty years and we have made a lot of progress,

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Speaker 1: because first of all, how do we verify that the

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Speaker 1: person consenting is an adult as opposed to just my

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Speaker 1: child under thirteen who's checking the box for me? And

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Speaker 1: then how do we verify that I have a relationship

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Speaker 1: with the like I'm the parent or the legal guardian,

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Speaker 1: so that I'm the one who can't consent, And you know,

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Speaker 1: there are lots of ways the Federal Trade Commission has

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Speaker 1: experimented with, but at the end of the day, it

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Speaker 1: is still a pretty inexact science and pretty easily manipulated,

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Speaker 1: especially by kids, because face that, when we're talking about technology,

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Speaker 1: kids are almost always better at it than we are.

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Speaker 1: Always in my case, um, so, what's the right way

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Speaker 1: to deal with this issue? Is there a right way

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Speaker 1: to deal with it? It seems like there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of investigations going on, you know, a lot of irons

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Speaker 1: in the fire. Is there a way to deal with this? Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, if you talk to ten lawyers, you'd get

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Speaker 1: ten different opinions on this, And I don't know that

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Speaker 1: anyone else has better views than lawyers do on this.

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Speaker 1: I do think we're getting to the point that we

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Speaker 1: could really use some guidance, whether it's in the form

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Speaker 1: of rules or legislation from the Federal Trade Commission or

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Speaker 1: from Congress, so that we weren't just proceeding by lawsuit.

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Speaker 1: You know, lawsuits tell you that something you didn't know

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Speaker 1: you were supposed to do five years ago turns out

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Speaker 1: you should have done. But until we have clearer standards

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Speaker 1: until we know what the rules of the road are. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, do we expect that government will be able

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Speaker 1: to have access to social media feeds um in other countries?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think we have to expect that. And

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Speaker 1: if we do have to expect it, then we should

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Speaker 1: stop beating up on China for that. There are other

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Speaker 1: things we can beat up on China for, but but

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't, you know, have this two phase standards, Like

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Speaker 1: we expect you to cooperate with the US government, and

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Speaker 1: you know the FBI suit Apple, and they wouldn't cooperate.

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Speaker 1: But if you cooperate with the Chinese government, we think

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Speaker 1: you're a bad actor and we're gonna we're gonna sue

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Speaker 1: you for it. We need to sort of straighten that out.

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Speaker 1: And then thus, you know, the second lawsuit, um, the

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Speaker 1: one about children having access to inappropriate things. UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: I'm enormously sympathetic. But on the on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: nothing has worked effectively to keep children away from things

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Speaker 1: that reasonable people might think are inappropriate for minors. You know,

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Speaker 1: all you have to do is sit down at any

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Speaker 1: computer and type into Google or any other search engine.

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Speaker 1: You can get anything you want. You I mean anything.

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Speaker 1: And so this notion that we're going to have these

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Speaker 1: kind of protected environments that you know, any parent who

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Speaker 1: thought TikTok was going to be a safe place for

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Speaker 1: their kids, I don't think any amount of law or

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Speaker 1: lawsuit is going to help us there. But we need

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Speaker 1: better educated parents and probably better educated kids so they know,

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know the horrible stories about you know,

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Speaker 1: kids who are posting nude pictures of themselves at the

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Speaker 1: request of someone they met online. We're going to need

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Speaker 1: to protect kids in that they learn not to do that,

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Speaker 1: as opposed to that they will never be asked for that.

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Speaker 1: My part of this be solved by apparently TikTok is

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Speaker 1: in talks with the White House to store Americans data

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Speaker 1: on Oracle servers. Would that take care of the second lawsuit?

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Speaker 1: I don't think it will resolve it. In other words,

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Speaker 1: we spent a lot of time on this in general.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, where does Google story data? Where

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Speaker 1: does Facebook store of data? You know, if we just

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Speaker 1: localize the data, that will make things better. Principal, data

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Speaker 1: localization is a pretty incomplete solution because it doesn't really

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Speaker 1: matter whether the data is stored. It matters where the

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Speaker 1: data can be accessed from. And so even if the

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Speaker 1: data is all stored in the US on Oracle servers.

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Speaker 1: Um are we really saying that TikTok from its head

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Speaker 1: office is not going to be able to access the

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Speaker 1: data in China, or in Saudi Arabia or in some

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Speaker 1: other countries. And We've got a lot of experiences and

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Speaker 1: a lot of experience with this in a related area,

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Speaker 1: which is banking, and so you know, people say, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, as long as you have a connection to

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Speaker 1: the bank in Switzerland, will use US law at the

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Speaker 1: US branch of the bank to order you to turn

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Speaker 1: on your connection and bring in the data from Switzerland,

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Speaker 1: even though it would be against the law in Switzerland

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Speaker 1: to do that. And so I think we might have

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Speaker 1: to expect China could do the same thing. You know,

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Speaker 1: they would go to the Beijing headquarters and say, use

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Speaker 1: your connection to the Oracle server in in California and

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Speaker 1: bring this data in if there's something that they're they're

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Speaker 1: looking for they're suspicious about. As you mentioned before, these

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Speaker 1: suits are under in Indiana consumer protection law and they

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Speaker 1: seek penalties of up to five thousand dollars per violation.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure how they would even calculate that. But

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Speaker 1: are they looking for a lot of money here? Yeah? Um,

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Speaker 1: it is sort of interesting because unlike many lawses we

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Speaker 1: see which basically wants you to stop doing the offending

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Speaker 1: thing and to agree to not do it in the future,

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Speaker 1: So they're really focused on the stopping the activity and

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Speaker 1: protecting kids in the future. This has a feeling of

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Speaker 1: looking either for money that would you know, come to

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Speaker 1: the state, or money that would help attract headlines. You know,

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Speaker 1: suits for big dollars usually attract more headlines than suits

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Speaker 1: for no dollars or small dollars. And again, it will

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Speaker 1: be interesting to see what a court will do. Again,

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Speaker 1: this is one pair of cases where I think it's

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Speaker 1: totally possible to imagine a court going either way. You know,

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Speaker 1: a court saying, um, no, are you outrageous you're using

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Speaker 1: a state lawsuit to deal with an international um company

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Speaker 1: where there's not even a clear legal standard that's been broken,

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Speaker 1: or where someone would say, look, you're you're harming kids

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Speaker 1: in Indiana, and this is fundamentally the job of the

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Speaker 1: attorney general is to help protect them. Despite what you've

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Speaker 1: said about the problems of this lawsuit, do you expect

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Speaker 1: other attorneys general to sue TikTok as well. I do.

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Speaker 1: I certainly do, and partly because it's nature of attorneys

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Speaker 1: general litigation that they sort of pile on after one

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Speaker 1: play blazes the way others follow. And you know, we've

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Speaker 1: seen that in tobacco and addictive substances and other areas

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Speaker 1: where we've seen this type of litigation. And also because

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Speaker 1: you know, at some point they can combine the cases

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Speaker 1: and so reduce the cost for anyone um office to

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Speaker 1: have to bear, And so I could see other people

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Speaker 1: finally identical suits and then ultimately the suits being joined

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Speaker 1: in the the cost of pursuing it being shared across

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Speaker 1: multiple office. Any final thoughts about this lawsuit and the

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Speaker 1: ones to follow, you know, and we just say that

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Speaker 1: I think completely obvious things. So it's so obvious you

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Speaker 1: may wonder why do I feel the need to stay it.

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Speaker 1: But I think this is like many other areas, you know,

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Speaker 1: one of those places where there's a there's a huge tension,

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Speaker 1: and a lot of it may really depend on your

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Speaker 1: sort of political perspective. I mean, is this an attorney

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Speaker 1: general grand standing in the middle of the country, you know, Indiana,

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Speaker 1: most people couldn't even find it on a map. Or

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Speaker 1: is this like a trailblazing critical effort to deal with

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Speaker 1: the safety of children, um, when Congress has really let

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Speaker 1: us down and not done anything about it. And you

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Speaker 1: could convincingly make either case. I mean, you might believe

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Speaker 1: one or the other, but I think you could argue

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Speaker 1: either one, and so it's It's another reason why I

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Speaker 1: think courts are such a poor way of dealing with this,

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Speaker 1: because it shouldn't feel like such a crapshoot. You should

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Speaker 1: actually have more ability to say, look, here are the

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Speaker 1: standards we expect companies doing business in the United States

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Speaker 1: to meet, and if you don't meet those standards, then

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Speaker 1: we're going to enforce against you. But I don't think

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Speaker 1: we've been very clear about the standards. Thanks so much

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Speaker 1: for being on the Bloomberg Laws show. Fred. That's Fred Kate,

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Speaker 1: a law professor and vice president of research at Indiana University.

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Speaker 1: Since the pandemic began, the US has been using a

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Speaker 1: public health rule designed to limit the spread of disease

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Speaker 1: to expel asylum seekers on the southern border. Title forty

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Speaker 1: two has been used more than two and a half

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Speaker 1: million times to expel migrants since March of but according

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Speaker 1: to a judge's rule, starting next Wednesday, immigration authorities can

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Speaker 1: no longer use Title forty two. This change comes as

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Speaker 1: surging numbers of people are trying to enter the country

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Speaker 1: to the southern border. My guest is a Lauremucragy, director

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Speaker 1: of Columbia Law Schools Immigration Rights Clinic. Give us some

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Speaker 1: context about Title forty two. So as you know, Title

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Speaker 1: forty two was a public health order that was enacted

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Speaker 1: in March at the onset of the COVID nineteen pandemic.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Stephen Miller and other anti immigrants activists

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Speaker 1: in the Trump administration we're looking for a way to

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Speaker 1: close the southern border, and the COVID nineteen pandemic offered

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Speaker 1: a pretext for doing so. At that time, the CDC's

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Speaker 1: owned doctors and expert so that closing the southern boarder

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Speaker 1: or was not necessary to contain the spread of COVID

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Speaker 1: in the United States, But the Title forty two was

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Speaker 1: rolled out anyway, citing as a pretext health concerns, public

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Speaker 1: health concerns, and it was used to close the southern

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Speaker 1: border to asylum seekers and other migrants who would be

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Speaker 1: immediately expelled upon apprehension. When the writing administration came to office,

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration continued to rely on Title forty two

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Speaker 1: through early April twenty two. At that point, in April,

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Speaker 1: the CDC said that expulsions are no longer needed to

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Speaker 1: protect the public health. In a memo issued by the

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Speaker 1: CDC that month, they cited increased availability of vaccines in

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Speaker 1: COVID nineteen treatments um But interestingly, the CDC did not

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Speaker 1: make their recision of the Title forty to order effective immediately. Instead,

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Speaker 1: the CDC waited a number of weeks to make the

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Speaker 1: recision of Title forty two effective. During that interim period,

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Speaker 1: Southern states rushed to federal court, and specifically, they rushed

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Speaker 1: to the Western District Court of Louisiana, a federal court

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Speaker 1: where they were virtually guaranteed to pull a conservative judge.

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Speaker 1: They got Judge Robert Summer Hayes, who issued a nationwide

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Speaker 1: injunction finding that the Biden administration's recission of Title forty

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Speaker 1: two by the CBC in April of this year was

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Speaker 1: arbitrary and capricious. The judge held that the administration should

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Speaker 1: have followed a notice and comment procedure under the Administrative

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Speaker 1: Procedures Act. So that is one legal challenge to Title

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Speaker 1: forty two recisions that was led by the Southern States. Now,

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Speaker 1: at the same time, there has been appending federal court

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Speaker 1: case in the Federal District Court in the District of

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Speaker 1: Columbia challenging Title forty two. And in that DC case,

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Speaker 1: last month, Judge Emmett Sullivan struck down Title forty two

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Speaker 1: and held that Title forty two was arbitrary and capricious

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Speaker 1: and violation of the administrative procedure that by that point

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Speaker 1: in time, Title forty two had been used to expel

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Speaker 1: more than a million people across the US Mexico border. Reluctantly,

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Speaker 1: Judge Sullivan put his order on hold for five weeks

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Speaker 1: until midnight of December twenty one, at the request of

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration. So the big question now is what

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Speaker 1: will happen at midnight on December twenty one? Will Title

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Speaker 1: forty two actually be lifted, what might effect how this

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Speaker 1: plays out. There are a few things that we should

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Speaker 1: keep in mind that may affect what happens. First, it's

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Speaker 1: worth noting that the governors of nineteen Republican led states

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Speaker 1: have asked the Federal Court of Appeals to rule they

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Speaker 1: this Friday, December sixteenth, on an emergency motion to block

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Speaker 1: the lower court's order lifting Title forty two. The other

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Speaker 1: thing that's also happening is that the Biden administration is

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Speaker 1: appealing Judge Sullivan's ruling, and at the same time, the

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Speaker 1: Biden administration is saying that it's continuing with preparations to

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Speaker 1: end Title forty two as ordered on December twenty one.

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Speaker 1: It's not only Republican governors, but we had recently California

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Speaker 1: Democratic Governor Gavin Newsom saying that lifting Title forty two

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Speaker 1: could quote break his state with this surge of migrants

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Speaker 1: at the border. Is the Biden administration ready to deal

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Speaker 1: with lifting Title forty two. There has been a backlog

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Speaker 1: of asylum seekers and other migrants who have not been

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Speaker 1: allowed into the United States for the past six years.

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Speaker 1: Many of them have bad claims for asylum, and what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing now is that there is a built up

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Speaker 1: demand to enter the United States. People have a right

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Speaker 1: to seek asylum under both domestic law and international law.

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Speaker 1: The United States is a party to the Refugee Convention,

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Speaker 1: which was enacted agreed upon by Western nations in the

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Speaker 1: wake of the horrors of World War Two, and we

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Speaker 1: are now living in a moment of massive human displacement.

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Speaker 1: More people are displaced across the globe now than ever

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Speaker 1: before in human history, and there remains a question about

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Speaker 1: what legal and moral obligations does the United States have

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Speaker 1: at this time. I agree with those who criticize our

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Speaker 1: immigration system as broken and flawed, and we need as

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Speaker 1: a people, as a government to develop an efficient, humane,

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Speaker 1: an orderly mechanism for admitting bona fide asylum seekers at

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Speaker 1: our southern border. For example, in El Paso, Texas, there

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Speaker 1: are migrants sleeping on the street and bus stations, local

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Speaker 1: airports because they can handle the capacity of migrants at

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Speaker 1: the border. So, forgetting for a moment about trying to

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Speaker 1: get something through Congress, which hasn't happened for decades, what

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Speaker 1: can be done about the current situation? Right? Our nation

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Speaker 1: needs comprehensive immigration reform. We haven't had comprehensive immigration reform

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Speaker 1: since nineteen And I suppose I'm a little bit more

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Speaker 1: optimistic than you are about the prospects for comprehensive immigration reform.

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Speaker 1: I have to be. I do this work on a

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Speaker 1: daily basis, But I also see the need for increased

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Speaker 1: cooperation among states and municipalities so that we can get

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Speaker 1: asylum seekers the support that they need to integrate into

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Speaker 1: US life. You know, across the nation we're seeing dramatic

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Speaker 1: labor shortages. Businesses, farms all need immigrant labor to continue

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Speaker 1: doing the work that they do to continue supporting the

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Speaker 1: American economy. And we need to get the human beings

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Speaker 1: who have so much to contribute to our country to

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Speaker 1: the places where they are most needed. Do you see

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration making any moves in that direction. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you have governors of Texas and Arizona shipping migrants from

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Speaker 1: those states to New York and Chicago and d C.

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Speaker 1: So what can the Biden administration do at this point?

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Speaker 1: The Biden administration should make it easier for asylum seekers

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Speaker 1: to work lawfully in the United States. The Mayor of

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Speaker 1: New York City, Eric Adams, recently came out in savor

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Speaker 1: for posal that would shorten the length of time that

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Speaker 1: asylum seekers need to wait before being lawfully authorized to

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Speaker 1: work in the United States. Here in our city, there

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Speaker 1: are major labor shortages, and asylum seekers must work under

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Speaker 1: the table often subjected to exploitation as they're trying to

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Speaker 1: support themselves and their families. Overwhelmingly, asylum seekers come to

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Speaker 1: the United States fleeing for their lives and wanting to

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Speaker 1: support themselves and their families. Through a change in regulations,

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Speaker 1: the Biden administration can make it easier for asylum seekers

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Speaker 1: to become lawfully employed in the United States. Are a

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Speaker 1: lot of asylum seekers at the southern border coming for

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Speaker 1: reasons of economics rather than reasons that would qualify them

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Speaker 1: for asylum in this country. Many asylum seekers are fleeing

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Speaker 1: for reasons that would fit within the contours of the

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Speaker 1: Refugee Convention and would sit easily within US asylum and

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Speaker 1: immigration law. That would mean that an asylum secret exping

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Speaker 1: persecution or fierce persecution based on one of the five

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Speaker 1: protected grounds, which are race, religion, nationality, membership in a

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Speaker 1: particular social group, or based on their political opinions. But

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Speaker 1: increasingly we are seeing human displacement at large scale numbers

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Speaker 1: because of climate change, and so called climate refugees don't

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Speaker 1: necessarily fit easily within the contours of the refugee convention,

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Speaker 1: which has developed decades ago, before there was such a

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Speaker 1: great deal of concern about climate related displacements, and we

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Speaker 1: are at a moment in time where those of us

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Speaker 1: who care about humanity and the future of the world

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Speaker 1: needs to be thinking about what obligations do we owe

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Speaker 1: each other as human beings? Are at a moment where

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Speaker 1: the refugee convention is not enough. Should we be moving

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Speaker 1: towards a broader understanding of what qualifies people for humanitarian

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Speaker 1: protections in the case of climate related disasters. You know

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Speaker 1: the closest that the US government has at this point

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Speaker 1: to protect those who are fleeing natural disasters. It's a

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Speaker 1: foremost immigration relief known as temporary protected status. It has

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Speaker 1: been used to grant protections to tens of thousands of

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Speaker 1: people who have fled their countries after earthquakes or similar

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Speaker 1: natural disasters. But is the question is is temporary protected

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Speaker 1: status enough for the moment in time that we're living in.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious as to why you are optimistic about legislation

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Speaker 1: immigration legislation when come January, the House is going to

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Speaker 1: have a Republican majority, and Republicans are expected to make

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Speaker 1: immigration control a major issue, and even some Democrats have

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Speaker 1: voiced concerns about what happens when title forty two goes away.

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Speaker 1: So why are you optimistic? I'm optimistic because I have

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Speaker 1: faith in the American people. Overwhelmingly, people of both parties

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Speaker 1: have consistently and over the years expressed very high support

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Speaker 1: for legalization for certain categories of immigrants. Chief among them

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Speaker 1: are the Dreamers. So there is extremely high support across

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Speaker 1: party lines for Dreamers. We should be able to pass

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Speaker 1: some kind of immigration reform bill that addresses them similarly

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Speaker 1: across both parties, and historically there has been broad support

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Speaker 1: for bona fide asylum seekers, people who are fleeing for

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Speaker 1: their lives, who are trying to save both themselves and

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Speaker 1: their children from the worst harms imaginable. And I think

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Speaker 1: there is room going forward for bipartisan negotiations over these issues.

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Speaker 1: And I have faith. I know many people don't, but

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Speaker 1: I have faith in the American people's ability to help

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Speaker 1: our nation become the kind of country we wish to be.

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Speaker 1: If we look at just the last few years, we

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Speaker 1: can see that our US government has offered protections to

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Speaker 1: thousands of people who are fleeing from Afghanistan, who are

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Speaker 1: fleeing from Ukraine. So as a government, as a people,

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Speaker 1: as a nation, we try to do the right thing.

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Speaker 1: If you had to guess, what do you think will

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Speaker 1: happen with Title forty two? Will it be lifted or extended?

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Speaker 1: It's really hard to read the tea leaves on what

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Speaker 1: will happen with Title forty two. Given the pending appeals,

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Speaker 1: the emergency motion that may be decided as early as

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Speaker 1: this Friday, it is really hard to know. Thanks so

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Speaker 1: much for being on the show. That's a Laura Mukherjee,

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Speaker 1: the director of Columbia Law Schools Immigrants Rights Clinic. And

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Speaker 1: that's it for this edition of The Bloomberg Law Show.

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Speaker 1: Remember you can always get the latest legal news on

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Speaker 1: our Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can find them on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

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00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: and at www dot Bloomberg dot com, slash podcast, slash Law,

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Speaker 1: and remember to tune into The Bloomberg Law Show every

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Speaker 1: week night at ten BM Wall Street Time. I'm June Grossow,

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to Bloomberg