WEBVTT - Haile Selassie: Statesman, Colonizer, God?

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<v Speaker 1>All right, everybody, it's time for the coronet.

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<v Speaker 2>Do do do? Oh man, you do that? So good,

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<v Speaker 2>you guys. We have gotten on the ball and have

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<v Speaker 2>all of our tour dates locked for the rest of

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<v Speaker 2>the year, which makes us very happy because we've never

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<v Speaker 2>been able to get it together all at once like

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<v Speaker 2>this this early.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we can see the future, and the future is

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<v Speaker 1>going to kind of play out like this. On May

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<v Speaker 1>twenty ninth, we're going to be at the Chevalier again

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<v Speaker 1>in Boston. The next night we'll be back at the

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<v Speaker 1>Warner Theater in DC. And then the night after that

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<v Speaker 1>May thirty, first, we're going to be at Town Hall

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<v Speaker 1>again in Manhattan, New York City.

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<v Speaker 2>Town That's right, it's a great return to New York.

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<v Speaker 2>Then we're going to hit the Midwest for a jaunt

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<v Speaker 2>and what is that August? August seventh, we're going to

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<v Speaker 2>be at the Auditorium Theater in Chicago. Then we're heading

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<v Speaker 2>over the next night eight to eight to the State

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<v Speaker 2>Theater in Minneapolis. Can't wait for that one. Yeah, And

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<v Speaker 2>then we're adding a new city this year. Finally, we're

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<v Speaker 2>going to Indianapolis to the Egyptian Room on the night

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm not going to give away the topic, but

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<v Speaker 2>you Midwest people might want to come, is all I'm saying.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And then we're gonna knock the year out of

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<v Speaker 1>the park by finishing it up in Durham at the

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<v Speaker 1>Carolina Theater on September fifth, two nights later, will be

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<v Speaker 1>the last show of the tour at our beloved Atlanta's

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<v Speaker 1>Symphony Hall and our beloved Atlanta, Beloved Georgia, beloved USA.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, So listen up everyone. There as an artist

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<v Speaker 2>presale that's us Tuesday the twenty seventh, that's today from

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<v Speaker 2>ten am Eastern to Thursday to twenty ninth at ten

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<v Speaker 2>pm using r code, s YSK live yep.

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<v Speaker 1>And then the venues and promoters want to get on

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<v Speaker 1>the pre sale action, so on Thursday the twenty ninth,

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<v Speaker 1>from ten am to ten pm local time, they'll be

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<v Speaker 1>selling pre sale tickets too, and then public sale happens

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<v Speaker 1>right chuck on Friday, March first at ten am local time.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right local to whatever venue you're going to. Public

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<v Speaker 2>on sale Friday March first, So.

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<v Speaker 1>Head on over to stuffushouldo dot com and press the

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<v Speaker 1>tour button, or else you can go to link tree

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<v Speaker 1>slash s YSK and get all the info and ticket

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<v Speaker 1>links you need there too.

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<v Speaker 2>And we can't wait to see everybody all the rest

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<v Speaker 2>of this year. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a

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<v Speaker 2>production of iHeartRadio.

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<v Speaker 1>Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh and there's

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<v Speaker 1>Chuck and it's just the two of us, and we

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<v Speaker 1>are here to just wrap it up. Rap rap rap,

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<v Speaker 1>I have a little chat, a little talk, and just rap,

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<v Speaker 1>just the two of us. We do that every time

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<v Speaker 1>Jerry's not here. That song every time we reference it

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<v Speaker 1>some way, shape or form. It's not that great of

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<v Speaker 1>a song.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh God, please tell me you're joking.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I'm actually not. I think it's one of those

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<v Speaker 1>ones I've just heard too many times. Sorry, it's all right.

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<v Speaker 1>I can't listen to Journey any longer either, If that

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<v Speaker 1>makes you feel any better.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is Bill Withers, all right.

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<v Speaker 1>But I'm sick of that song.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay.

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<v Speaker 1>I think Austin Powers was the one that put it

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<v Speaker 1>over the top.

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<v Speaker 2>Was it in that movie? Yeah?

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<v Speaker 1>He turned it into like a rap what yeah? With

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<v Speaker 1>him and Mini Me?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh god?

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<v Speaker 1>No, wonder who thought Mini Me was going to show

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<v Speaker 1>up in the Hyle Selassie I did not until just now.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, same here. This is a complicated episode about a

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<v Speaker 2>complicated story.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, And the reason why we should just come out

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<v Speaker 1>of the gate and explain why this is so complicated.

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<v Speaker 1>Number one, we're talking about a human being who ruled

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<v Speaker 1>a nation, one of the most powerful nations on the

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<v Speaker 1>continent of Africa, for virtually his entire lifetime. Right, There's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot that can happen during that time. You can

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<v Speaker 1>make a lot of enemies, you can become revered, and

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<v Speaker 1>so as a consequence, the guy did a lot of stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of good stuff, a lot of shady stuff,

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of downright evil stuff. And over the course

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<v Speaker 1>of the time that he was ruling and then beyond,

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<v Speaker 1>some people came to venerate him as a god, like

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<v Speaker 1>a god on earth. Other people came to loathe them

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<v Speaker 1>as a murderous colonizer. Other people saw him as a

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<v Speaker 1>modernizer of a nation. There's so many different opinions about

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<v Speaker 1>this guy that it's really gonna be tough to cram

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<v Speaker 1>it all in into this one episode. But we're gonna,

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna try. We're gonna make it if we try.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I think aside from the god thing, which

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<v Speaker 2>you know, we'll get to. I think he kind of

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<v Speaker 2>was a lot of those things. He did modernize Ethiopia

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<v Speaker 2>and he was a progressive voice for Africans, but he

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<v Speaker 2>also did a lot of bad things, and it seemed like,

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know, for my it seemed like the last

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<v Speaker 2>twenty years of his life he did a lot more

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<v Speaker 2>bad than the first like forty years of his rule.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I got to. He started to phone it in,

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<v Speaker 1>I think, and be awful. Well that's a consequence of

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<v Speaker 1>phoning it.

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<v Speaker 2>In, you know. Yeah, but when you if you do

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<v Speaker 2>a little research on Highly Selassie, you'll see a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of articles like praising him, like really strongly, and then

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of articles that are like, why are we

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<v Speaker 2>rewriting this the history of this person to not include

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<v Speaker 2>any of the bad stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, what's amazing is you can actually there's an answer

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<v Speaker 1>to that question. The reason why is because of reggae.

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<v Speaker 1>You can thank reggae for reforming the image of Highly

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<v Speaker 1>Selassie across the world. It's amazing, it's astounding, it's it's

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<v Speaker 1>been really effective. Yeah, So Chuck, we're going to talk

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<v Speaker 1>about Highly Selassie, who is the Ruler of Ethiopia, the

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<v Speaker 1>Emperor of Ethiopia. In fact, he had one of the

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<v Speaker 1>most amazing titles of any ruler anywhere. When he became emperor,

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<v Speaker 1>his official title was His Imperial Majesty, the Conquering Lion

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<v Speaker 1>of the Tribe of Judah, highly Selassie, the First elect

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<v Speaker 1>of God, Emperor of Ethiopia. That was his full time,

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<v Speaker 1>which is just straight up impressive.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there were a lot of different titles that he

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<v Speaker 2>had over the years, and a lot of different names

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<v Speaker 2>for the different titles. He gets kind of can get

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<v Speaker 2>in the weeds with that stuff. I just did not well.

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<v Speaker 2>But he also had another title at the same time,

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<v Speaker 2>which I can't even find right now, but we'll get to.

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<v Speaker 1>So let's talk a little bit about Ethiopia, the country

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<v Speaker 1>that he ruled. You know, those of us off the

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<v Speaker 1>continent considered Ethiopia is like a cohesive whole nation, But

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<v Speaker 1>like most nations across the world, on any continent, it's

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<v Speaker 1>actually an assemblage of different smaller units that were eventually

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<v Speaker 1>brought together and unified into a nation like we recognize today.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and unified as sort of a should be in quotes.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure, Yeah, that's a good point.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, so it is in the Horn of Africa, and

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<v Speaker 2>like you said, it was home to lots of civilizations

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<v Speaker 2>over the course of you know, ancient history and then

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<v Speaker 2>you know, over through time, and it was it was

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<v Speaker 2>a pretty big power. It is unique for that area.

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<v Speaker 2>And then it was one of the first Christian nations

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<v Speaker 2>and remained a Christian nation despite being completely cut off

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<v Speaker 2>from the rest of the Christian world on all sides basically.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it was one of the oldest around. It's

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<v Speaker 1>state religion is Christianity, I think Ethiopian Orthodox Christianity, that

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<v Speaker 1>branch of the Christian Church. And since like I think

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<v Speaker 1>the fourth century see at least, so for a very

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<v Speaker 1>long time, it's been a Christian nation and that meant

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<v Speaker 1>that it had like pretty good relations with other Christian

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<v Speaker 1>nations around the world. But also it traded with the

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<v Speaker 1>tribes in Arabia, it traded with others in the Middle East.

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<v Speaker 1>Like it was a really important power for a really

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<v Speaker 1>long time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. And we should probably talk about the

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<v Speaker 2>Slomonic dynasty. Yeah, while is in King Solomon, the Coronation

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<v Speaker 2>of Yakuno, and you know, we're doing our best with

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of these names I tried to look most

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<v Speaker 2>of these up.

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<v Speaker 1>By the way, Well how's this one go?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this one goes Yakuno Amlac in twelve seventy. And

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<v Speaker 2>this is important because, like I said, is in King Solomon.

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<v Speaker 2>This dynasty basically says, we are the direct descendants of

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<v Speaker 2>King Solomon and Queen of Sheba from the Bible, and

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<v Speaker 2>the line of Judah is our symbol. And you know,

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<v Speaker 2>this is the sort of solemn line that as we'll see,

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<v Speaker 2>would you know eventually d Halli Selassie.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And it's found among the Amhara people, which are

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<v Speaker 1>one of the groups of people living in the Ethiopian

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<v Speaker 1>region at the time. And some people say that this dynasty,

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<v Speaker 1>this lineage of rulers is the oldest in the world.

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<v Speaker 1>If you credit that as factual or even roughly factual,

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<v Speaker 1>that King Solomon and the Queen of Sheba produced Menelik

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<v Speaker 1>the First as a son who became the first ruler

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<v Speaker 1>of this Solomonic dynasty, then that's we're talking like three

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<v Speaker 1>thousand years essentially of rule by this one group in

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<v Speaker 1>this one area. Historians say that's a great story. Also,

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<v Speaker 1>Menelik the First is said to have brought the arc

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<v Speaker 1>of the Covenant to Ethiopia where it's supposedly being hidden

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<v Speaker 1>or kept, but really we can date it as far

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<v Speaker 1>back as twelve seventy, which is nothing to sneeze at,

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<v Speaker 1>when Yakuno Ambloc was definitely coronated. Since twelve seventy there's

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<v Speaker 1>been nothing but solomonic rulers ever since then. That's a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty pretty good track record.

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<v Speaker 2>Frankly, yeah, for sure. But again that's not to say

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<v Speaker 2>that there was like complete unity under that rule throughout

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<v Speaker 2>the years. In the eighteenth then early into the nineteenth century,

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<v Speaker 2>Ethiopia was very fractured. There were a lot of feudal kingdoms,

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of different like you mentioned, really religions and

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<v Speaker 2>ethnicities are sort of you know, co mingling with one another.

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<v Speaker 2>And eventually, as far as our story goes, unification around

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<v Speaker 2>the eighteen fifties is when things really sort of get

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<v Speaker 2>well more unified.

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<v Speaker 1>Right, And I was wondering what the answer is, like

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<v Speaker 1>if there is a definitive answer. Is unification a good

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<v Speaker 1>thing because it keeps formerly warring neighboring groups from warring,

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<v Speaker 1>or is it a bad thing because these groups were

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<v Speaker 1>warring for a reason and now they're kind of smushed together,

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<v Speaker 1>whether they like it or not. Yeah, you know, I

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<v Speaker 1>wonder if it's a case by case basis, or if

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<v Speaker 1>there's a right way to do it or a wrong

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<v Speaker 1>way to do it, or that you shouldn't do it

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<v Speaker 1>at all. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a good question.

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<v Speaker 1>So by the nineteenth century, Emperor Menelik the Second, who

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<v Speaker 1>took the throne six or so hundred years after his

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<v Speaker 1>namesake did, who found the Solomonic dynasty, became the ruler

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<v Speaker 1>of a unified Ethiopia. And that's really where the story

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<v Speaker 1>kind of begins as far as where our protagonist, Liej

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<v Speaker 1>Tafari Makonan is concerned.

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<v Speaker 2>That's right, because he was born July twenty third, eighteen

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<v Speaker 2>ninety two, just what three years after Menelik the Second

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<v Speaker 2>was crowned, right yep, So you know we're talking about

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<v Speaker 2>highly Selassie. But as you said, born Lidge Tafari. Lidge

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<v Speaker 2>means child of Tafari is one who is respected or feared.

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<v Speaker 2>So Lidge Tafari Maconin is child of Maconin who is

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<v Speaker 2>respected and feared.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and his dad was raz which means Prince Macanin,

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<v Speaker 1>So his dad was a prince already it's pretty good birthright,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, especially in a feudal society that I was

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<v Speaker 1>born into. But even more than that, his great grandfather,

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<v Speaker 1>Sahale Selasse had been emperor of the Kingdom of Shuwa

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<v Speaker 1>before Ethiopia was unified. So this guy had like literal

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<v Speaker 1>royal blood and was part of that Solomonic dynasty just

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<v Speaker 1>by birth.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and you said his dad was prince. The word

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<v Speaker 2>there would be ross, And that's important to just put

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<v Speaker 2>a pin in that because if you put Ross and

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<v Speaker 2>Tafari together, you will eventually get Rastafari.

0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Which sounds vaguely familiar. I can't put a finger on you.

0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.680
<v Speaker 2>Already mentioned reggae music, so that's where this is all eading.

0:12:28.679 --> 0:12:31.760
<v Speaker 2>But Ross means prince. His father was a governor of

0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:36.960
<v Speaker 2>the Harar province advisor to the emperor, which at this point,

0:12:37.320 --> 0:12:39.440
<v Speaker 2>I believe you already said was Menelik the second ye

0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:43.600
<v Speaker 2>and the first During the Menelik the second years, and

0:12:43.640 --> 0:12:47.520
<v Speaker 2>when Tafari was young, this is when Italy had its

0:12:47.880 --> 0:12:54.560
<v Speaker 2>sort of first first push into trying to basically you know,

0:12:54.640 --> 0:12:58.840
<v Speaker 2>this is a period of rapid colonization from the Europeans

0:12:58.880 --> 0:13:02.520
<v Speaker 2>all over Africa, think it was called the Scramble for Africa,

0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:05.720
<v Speaker 2>and this was Italy's first push because they had land

0:13:06.280 --> 0:13:12.400
<v Speaker 2>on both sides of Ethiopia and Eritrea and Italian Somaliland,

0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.080
<v Speaker 2>and Ethiopia was kind of right there in the middle.

0:13:15.880 --> 0:13:19.000
<v Speaker 2>But they were defeated that first time when fifteen thousand

0:13:19.000 --> 0:13:23.239
<v Speaker 2>Italians were beaten back by about seventy five thousand Ethiopians

0:13:23.240 --> 0:13:24.160
<v Speaker 2>in the Battle of Adwa.

0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:30.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and so Menelik the second became just revered for that,

0:13:30.960 --> 0:13:36.920
<v Speaker 1>like this African country beat back in a colonial power

0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.240
<v Speaker 1>from Europe, and it was a huge national black eye

0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.520
<v Speaker 1>on Italy that they carried a soreness for for decades afterward,

0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:47.200
<v Speaker 1>as we'll see. But it was an enormous feather in

0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.319
<v Speaker 1>the cap of Ethiopia because at the time this Scramble

0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:54.520
<v Speaker 1>for Africa, one group after another was falling prey to

0:13:54.600 --> 0:13:57.880
<v Speaker 1>these colonial powers who were just moving in, moving their people,

0:13:57.880 --> 0:14:00.880
<v Speaker 1>in taking over, forcing a lot of these people in slavery,

0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:04.360
<v Speaker 1>extracting their resources. In Ethiopia said no, nice, try Italy,

0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:08.000
<v Speaker 1>We're going to remain self sufficient and self determined.

0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:13.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's a good point. His mother, Yeshimabet, died when

0:14:13.320 --> 0:14:15.760
<v Speaker 2>he was about two years old, and he went on

0:14:15.800 --> 0:14:19.640
<v Speaker 2>to get a really sort of unusual and vast education

0:14:19.960 --> 0:14:25.480
<v Speaker 2>under the teachings of French missionaries, other teachers and scholars.

0:14:25.920 --> 0:14:28.560
<v Speaker 2>He learned which was unusual at the time for where

0:14:28.560 --> 0:14:32.080
<v Speaker 2>he was a lot of European history and languages, and

0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.960
<v Speaker 2>that education would set him up for his later life

0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:37.120
<v Speaker 2>on the international stage.

0:14:37.240 --> 0:14:40.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah for sure. I mean, his familiarity with Europe would

0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:45.280
<v Speaker 1>be extraordinarily helpful because Europe, even though some of the

0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:51.800
<v Speaker 1>former Age of Exploration powers like lost their clout, Europe

0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:55.680
<v Speaker 1>still remained super important in Africa because they were colonizers.

0:14:55.680 --> 0:15:00.560
<v Speaker 1>So to have a rapport with European powers was very

0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:04.680
<v Speaker 1>helpful keeping them at bay and also making Ethiopia a

0:15:04.720 --> 0:15:09.360
<v Speaker 1>really treasured asset or ally to those European powers too.

0:15:10.000 --> 0:15:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure.

0:15:10.680 --> 0:15:12.480
<v Speaker 1>It was just a good position for him to be in.

0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Oh absolutely, and he ingratiated himself. He was very much

0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.960
<v Speaker 2>loved on the international stage for most of his life,

0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:22.040
<v Speaker 2>which you know, was kind of at odds with how

0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.440
<v Speaker 2>he was viewed at home for the last couple of decades.

0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. So, because he was born into that royal lineage,

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 1>he kind of made moves throughout the court in at

0:15:33.760 --> 0:15:39.320
<v Speaker 1>age thirteen, he was made a de Jasmach, yeah, which

0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:43.480
<v Speaker 1>is essentially like a count. And from that point on

0:15:43.640 --> 0:15:46.680
<v Speaker 1>he just kept rising and rising further and further up

0:15:46.800 --> 0:15:50.600
<v Speaker 1>in importance in the aristocracy. Right, because we should say,

0:15:50.640 --> 0:15:53.680
<v Speaker 1>at the time, and for a very long time, Ethiopia

0:15:54.080 --> 0:16:00.280
<v Speaker 1>was a feudal agrarian society and economy where peasants worked

0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:02.760
<v Speaker 1>the land and had to give a lot of the

0:16:02.880 --> 0:16:05.440
<v Speaker 1>fruits of their labor over to land owners who didn't

0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:09.120
<v Speaker 1>do anything except extract labor and goods from the peasantry.

0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:11.000
<v Speaker 1>And then it went up and up and up, and

0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.920
<v Speaker 1>then you had an aristocracy that was sitting at the

0:16:13.960 --> 0:16:16.680
<v Speaker 1>top that was also tiered, and at the very top

0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.880
<v Speaker 1>of this where the rulers of Ethiopia, of which ros

0:16:19.920 --> 0:16:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Tafari was rising in rank and influence.

0:16:24.000 --> 0:16:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. And slavery played a big part in

0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.800
<v Speaker 2>that and a big part in this story, as you'll see.

0:16:30.200 --> 0:16:33.120
<v Speaker 2>So just sort of setting that up. Over the next

0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.480
<v Speaker 2>few years, he was, like you said, kind of rising

0:16:35.520 --> 0:16:39.080
<v Speaker 2>through these different positions. He got married in nineteen eleven

0:16:39.520 --> 0:16:43.080
<v Speaker 2>to a noble woman named men in Asphalt and had

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:45.720
<v Speaker 2>six kids, and they stayed married until she died in

0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:50.880
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty two, and then in nineteen thirteen, Menelect the

0:16:51.240 --> 0:16:54.400
<v Speaker 2>second died, and there was a very sort of interesting

0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:58.760
<v Speaker 2>power struggle that went on because his literal successor was

0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:06.360
<v Speaker 2>his grandson Iyazu the fifth, and he was not good

0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.200
<v Speaker 2>enough for the job. Evidently he was not a good

0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:11.399
<v Speaker 2>manager of people, didn't show a lot of promise as

0:17:11.440 --> 0:17:15.720
<v Speaker 2>a ruler, and even more importantly, he was I mean,

0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:18.199
<v Speaker 2>the rumor was that he actually converted to Islam. He

0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:22.439
<v Speaker 2>was not friendly to the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, and because

0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:27.439
<v Speaker 2>of these rumors and he was deposed as emperor. He

0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.280
<v Speaker 2>was arrested and spent the rest of his life in

0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:36.560
<v Speaker 2>detention wherein his I believe, in nineteen sixteen, his aunt

0:17:37.000 --> 0:17:38.920
<v Speaker 2>Zuditu was crowned empress.

0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:42.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and then so I don't I didn't get this.

0:17:42.680 --> 0:17:44.960
<v Speaker 1>I didn't understand why I couldn't find what maybe you know.

0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:52.760
<v Speaker 1>Simultaneously or shortly after Zuditu was crowned, Empress, Tafari became

0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:59.040
<v Speaker 1>Ras Tafari and the de facto ruler of Ethiopia as

0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:02.239
<v Speaker 1>the Supreme region an heir apparent? Was it because he

0:18:02.320 --> 0:18:05.159
<v Speaker 1>was young still? I guess he was twenty five at

0:18:05.200 --> 0:18:07.520
<v Speaker 1>the time. Was it because he was a man and

0:18:07.560 --> 0:18:10.720
<v Speaker 1>she was a woman and a woman that always have okay, gotcha? Okay,

0:18:11.119 --> 0:18:14.080
<v Speaker 1>So they were basically power sharing, even though because he

0:18:14.119 --> 0:18:17.159
<v Speaker 1>was a man, I'm guessing he was just deferred to

0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:20.639
<v Speaker 1>over her in a society that requires an empress to

0:18:20.720 --> 0:18:24.240
<v Speaker 1>have like a male regent with her right.

0:18:25.000 --> 0:18:27.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, that's basically I saw that in two

0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:30.320
<v Speaker 2>or three different places that if he I'm sorry, if

0:18:31.440 --> 0:18:35.000
<v Speaker 2>Zuditwo was was a man, he may have still had

0:18:35.000 --> 0:18:38.080
<v Speaker 2>that position, but he would not have nearly the power

0:18:38.200 --> 0:18:40.480
<v Speaker 2>that he had as a man because she was a woman.

0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:44.560
<v Speaker 1>Gotcha. So as this de facto ruler of Ethiopi, he

0:18:44.600 --> 0:18:47.119
<v Speaker 1>started making moves on the world stage, and there was

0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:52.840
<v Speaker 1>a difference between his and Zudituo's politics from the outset.

0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:55.359
<v Speaker 1>She was more conservative than he was. He was much

0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:57.679
<v Speaker 1>more being younger, I think was a big part of it,

0:18:57.960 --> 0:19:02.040
<v Speaker 1>much more progressive minded, much more interested in modernizing, much

0:19:02.040 --> 0:19:05.239
<v Speaker 1>more interested in opening the country to internationalism. And so

0:19:05.880 --> 0:19:09.200
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen twenty three, Ethiopia became a member of the

0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:12.920
<v Speaker 1>League of Nations, just the third African country to do so,

0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:16.639
<v Speaker 1>and that was after South Africa and Liberia and that

0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.760
<v Speaker 1>was like one hundred percent Tafari's doing from what I understand.

0:19:20.480 --> 0:19:26.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally. Part of that required the pledge to you know,

0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.080
<v Speaker 2>abolish slavery. As we'll see, that was in nineteen twenty three,

0:19:30.320 --> 0:19:34.200
<v Speaker 2>and the abolition of slavery in Ethiopia did not happen

0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:39.240
<v Speaker 2>in full for many, many decades, So it was you know,

0:19:39.320 --> 0:19:41.960
<v Speaker 2>that's another you know, sort of a thread that goes

0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.280
<v Speaker 2>to this story of just how long it took to

0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.960
<v Speaker 2>get slavery abolished there because it was such a part

0:19:47.960 --> 0:19:50.480
<v Speaker 2>of their tiered system in Ethiopia.

0:19:51.200 --> 0:19:55.359
<v Speaker 1>And it's worth saying too, I think, Chuck, that African

0:19:55.680 --> 0:20:00.439
<v Speaker 1>continental style slavery was much different from the kind of

0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:04.639
<v Speaker 1>slavery that was developed through the Transatlantic trade that was

0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:08.920
<v Speaker 1>established here in the United States in the Americas.

0:20:09.520 --> 0:20:12.600
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, I think literal human ownership was not the case.

0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I mean, there was still like a curtailment of liberty,

0:20:17.920 --> 0:20:19.840
<v Speaker 1>but at the same time, you lived in the same

0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:22.520
<v Speaker 1>house and ate the same food that you're you know,

0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:25.479
<v Speaker 1>putative owner ate. It was just you were just treated

0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:28.200
<v Speaker 1>much differently, and you don't want to sanitize it because

0:20:28.240 --> 0:20:32.280
<v Speaker 1>you're still you still didn't have freedom like an individual

0:20:32.440 --> 0:20:36.280
<v Speaker 1>human being should have. But just compared to just the

0:20:36.320 --> 0:20:41.520
<v Speaker 1>horrors of the transatlantic chattel slavery practices like the African

0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.800
<v Speaker 1>slave trade was, it was just not like it at

0:20:44.840 --> 0:20:46.680
<v Speaker 1>all in a lot of ways.

0:20:46.640 --> 0:20:49.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. So in nineteen twenty eight he was

0:20:49.240 --> 0:20:53.560
<v Speaker 2>named Nebus, which is a title equivalent to king, but

0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.800
<v Speaker 2>it's not the same as, you know, the king, as

0:20:55.800 --> 0:20:58.720
<v Speaker 2>we would think, because it's still below emperor. And he

0:20:58.840 --> 0:21:04.280
<v Speaker 2>started traveling the world basically and every single way, basically

0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.480
<v Speaker 2>becoming the face of Ethiopia despite the fact that he

0:21:07.560 --> 0:21:11.159
<v Speaker 2>was not emperor, you know, going to Jerusalem, going to Rome,

0:21:11.680 --> 0:21:14.040
<v Speaker 2>going to Paris, meeting with King George, to the Fifth

0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:17.399
<v Speaker 2>in London, and it was sort of a world tour

0:21:17.880 --> 0:21:21.280
<v Speaker 2>where he placed himself expressly, sort of in the limelight.

0:21:22.720 --> 0:21:25.439
<v Speaker 2>As you said that, you know, he had different politics

0:21:25.480 --> 0:21:30.360
<v Speaker 2>than the Empress herself, and that combined with him sort

0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.960
<v Speaker 2>of putting himself on the world stage in front of

0:21:33.000 --> 0:21:36.600
<v Speaker 2>her essentially did not sit well to the point where

0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:41.879
<v Speaker 2>her husband led a rebellion goog Saulle where he wanted

0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:45.600
<v Speaker 2>to install himself as emperor, but he was defeated by

0:21:45.720 --> 0:21:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Tafari was killed and then within a couple of days later,

0:21:50.880 --> 0:21:54.480
<v Speaker 2>Zuditu died of unclear circumstances, and I think we all

0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:55.200
<v Speaker 2>know what that means.

0:21:55.280 --> 0:21:57.600
<v Speaker 1>Well, yeah, there's a rumor that she died of shock

0:21:57.680 --> 0:22:00.000
<v Speaker 1>at the news of her husband's death. But more likely

0:22:01.640 --> 0:22:07.600
<v Speaker 1>there's just kind of this idea that Holly Selassie was

0:22:07.640 --> 0:22:12.440
<v Speaker 1>not above poisoning opponents and rivals, and that's entirely possible

0:22:12.440 --> 0:22:14.240
<v Speaker 1>that's how she went away.

0:22:14.760 --> 0:22:17.240
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. And we should also point out prior

0:22:17.280 --> 0:22:20.560
<v Speaker 2>to this, prior to nineteen thirty through the nineteen like

0:22:20.680 --> 0:22:23.720
<v Speaker 2>late nineteen twenties, he was really doing a lot of

0:22:23.720 --> 0:22:28.639
<v Speaker 2>that progressive work, building roads. He established a national bank,

0:22:29.280 --> 0:22:32.639
<v Speaker 2>He redid the judicial system that kind of said, you know,

0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:35.600
<v Speaker 2>we need a more you know, modern Western based judicial

0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:38.240
<v Speaker 2>system and not this, you know, you steal love for

0:22:38.320 --> 0:22:40.520
<v Speaker 2>bread and we cut off your hand Biblical style.

0:22:41.040 --> 0:22:43.440
<v Speaker 1>And yeah, he continued that on when he became ruler

0:22:43.480 --> 0:22:48.320
<v Speaker 1>after Zudido was gone November Tewod nineteen thirty, which is

0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:54.240
<v Speaker 1>the holiest day of days for the Rasta religion. As

0:22:54.240 --> 0:23:00.000
<v Speaker 1>we'll see, Tafari became highly Selassie again. His imperial majesty,

0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:02.800
<v Speaker 1>the conquering line of the tribe of Judah. Highly Celassie

0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:05.959
<v Speaker 1>the first elect of God Emperor of Ethiopia, and one

0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:09.719
<v Speaker 1>of the first things he did was to write the

0:23:09.720 --> 0:23:14.480
<v Speaker 1>first written constitution that Ethiopia ever had, and it was

0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:19.680
<v Speaker 1>extremely progressive, especially considering again this is a feudal agrarian

0:23:19.840 --> 0:23:21.359
<v Speaker 1>society we're talking about.

0:23:22.320 --> 0:23:26.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure, for them, it was very very much

0:23:26.440 --> 0:23:30.639
<v Speaker 2>a step forward. He did create their first parliament, but

0:23:30.880 --> 0:23:33.320
<v Speaker 2>it was pretty clear with this, and even when they

0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:36.000
<v Speaker 2>made further changes I think in the nineteen fifties to

0:23:36.080 --> 0:23:39.520
<v Speaker 2>the constitution that it was still you know, the emperor

0:23:39.640 --> 0:23:41.800
<v Speaker 2>had the last say over everything.

0:23:42.560 --> 0:23:44.640
<v Speaker 1>Right, So I think that kind of goes to show

0:23:44.680 --> 0:23:48.280
<v Speaker 1>the kind of governing he did, Like he was well

0:23:48.320 --> 0:23:52.679
<v Speaker 1>aware of if you, you know, agree to something but

0:23:52.760 --> 0:23:54.679
<v Speaker 1>figure out a way to not do it or to

0:23:54.880 --> 0:23:57.000
<v Speaker 1>keep it from taking any power away from you, it

0:23:57.000 --> 0:23:59.800
<v Speaker 1>can really placate people a lot. He was kind of

0:24:00.040 --> 0:24:01.960
<v Speaker 1>asterful with that, and that's a good example of that.

0:24:03.240 --> 0:24:05.800
<v Speaker 2>All Right, Is that a good long intro?

0:24:06.160 --> 0:24:07.320
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:24:07.720 --> 0:24:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Forgot, we haven't taken a break yet, So we'll take

0:24:10.000 --> 0:24:12.320
<v Speaker 2>a break, we'll come back and we'll pick up with

0:24:12.480 --> 0:24:16.080
<v Speaker 2>Italy's second push into Ethiopia in the nineteen thirties. Right

0:24:16.080 --> 0:24:16.439
<v Speaker 2>after this.

0:24:43.160 --> 0:24:48.920
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so about five years after Holly Selassie or i

0:24:48.920 --> 0:24:55.399
<v Speaker 1>should say Tafari McConnon became Holly Selassie, Italy came a

0:24:55.440 --> 0:24:59.920
<v Speaker 1>call in again. Remember you said that Italy had Eric

0:25:00.600 --> 0:25:03.320
<v Speaker 1>to kind of the north and the east and Somaliland

0:25:03.320 --> 0:25:05.800
<v Speaker 1>to the south in the east. Is that correct? Still?

0:25:06.720 --> 0:25:09.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and they wanted to build a railroad through Ethiopia

0:25:09.560 --> 0:25:10.240
<v Speaker 2>to connect those.

0:25:10.359 --> 0:25:15.000
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So again, by this time, Mussolini has come to

0:25:15.040 --> 0:25:19.280
<v Speaker 1>power in Italy and he has revived national pride. That's

0:25:19.320 --> 0:25:23.560
<v Speaker 1>a big thing that you'll see in history. Fascism tends

0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:27.440
<v Speaker 1>to follow a major humiliation of a country on a

0:25:27.480 --> 0:25:32.560
<v Speaker 1>world stage, like Germany was humiliated in the Treaty after

0:25:32.600 --> 0:25:36.360
<v Speaker 1>World War One and just really punished, and fascism developed

0:25:36.359 --> 0:25:39.840
<v Speaker 1>out of that. Italy lost a lot of standing as

0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:43.720
<v Speaker 1>a colonial European power after it was beaten back by

0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:47.399
<v Speaker 1>Ethiopia in the nineteenth century. Fascism followed after that. You

0:25:47.480 --> 0:25:51.199
<v Speaker 1>really want to be careful about stuff like that, not

0:25:51.320 --> 0:25:54.679
<v Speaker 1>addressing the fascism that can follow, and this is another

0:25:54.720 --> 0:25:57.320
<v Speaker 1>example of that. So Mussolini came along and he's like, hey,

0:25:57.480 --> 0:26:00.440
<v Speaker 1>you remember the time that Ethiopia defeated US, Well, we're

0:26:00.440 --> 0:26:02.680
<v Speaker 1>going to make that up. We're going to go invade

0:26:02.720 --> 0:26:05.920
<v Speaker 1>Ethiopia again, and this time we're going to do it

0:26:06.000 --> 0:26:07.520
<v Speaker 1>with industrial warfare.

0:26:08.720 --> 0:26:11.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was a much different deal. This time. They

0:26:11.560 --> 0:26:17.600
<v Speaker 2>had far better equipment and weaponry and ammunition. I believe

0:26:17.680 --> 0:26:22.440
<v Speaker 2>they were still maybe technically outnumbered, but the way Ethiopians

0:26:22.600 --> 0:26:26.639
<v Speaker 2>were fighting was sort of outdated to the war machine

0:26:26.640 --> 0:26:28.560
<v Speaker 2>of Italy at this point. So it was it was

0:26:28.560 --> 0:26:33.760
<v Speaker 2>a real David versus Goliath kind of situation. So this

0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:36.280
<v Speaker 2>is when Selassie has a real chance to kind of

0:26:37.080 --> 0:26:42.840
<v Speaker 2>take center stage internationally, even more so by you know,

0:26:42.960 --> 0:26:45.000
<v Speaker 2>started you know, sort of rattling the chains of the

0:26:45.080 --> 0:26:48.920
<v Speaker 2>League of Nations, which Italy was a member of as well. Yeah,

0:26:48.960 --> 0:26:52.600
<v Speaker 2>saying like, hey, what's going on here? Is it right?

0:26:53.200 --> 0:26:56.719
<v Speaker 2>We need some help. It was called the Obscenia crisis,

0:26:57.359 --> 0:27:00.879
<v Speaker 2>Obscenia being the exonym for Ethiopia that US all used

0:27:01.240 --> 0:27:05.679
<v Speaker 2>basically more than Ethiopia and my research. And it was

0:27:06.720 --> 0:27:09.600
<v Speaker 2>a dark time in this war. They were getting beaten

0:27:09.680 --> 0:27:16.280
<v Speaker 2>down really badly. He was exiled because the Italians were

0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:19.879
<v Speaker 2>literally encroaching to the capital. So he went to French

0:27:19.920 --> 0:27:26.680
<v Speaker 2>Somaliland in May of nineteen thirty six, which effectively ended

0:27:26.680 --> 0:27:29.679
<v Speaker 2>the war, like least as far as Italy's concerned. They

0:27:29.680 --> 0:27:31.400
<v Speaker 2>were like, the war is over and we won.

0:27:31.680 --> 0:27:35.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and now we're occupying Ethiopia. Like you said, we won.

0:27:36.640 --> 0:27:40.359
<v Speaker 1>The way that they won was through mustard gas. It

0:27:40.400 --> 0:27:43.920
<v Speaker 1>was essentially a huge campaign of muster gas. There were massacres,

0:27:43.920 --> 0:27:47.760
<v Speaker 1>they set up concentration camps. It was a horrible occupation,

0:27:48.240 --> 0:27:50.439
<v Speaker 1>just exactly the kind you would expect from like a

0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:56.280
<v Speaker 1>first half of the twentieth century colonizing power. And yet

0:27:56.800 --> 0:28:01.399
<v Speaker 1>they historians still say that Ethiopian never was colonized. It

0:28:01.560 --> 0:28:05.040
<v Speaker 1>was occupied by Italy, but they didn't get a chance

0:28:05.119 --> 0:28:11.400
<v Speaker 1>to colonize, which is often follows occupation. They just remained

0:28:11.400 --> 0:28:14.480
<v Speaker 1>in the occupation stage for about five years. And over

0:28:14.520 --> 0:28:16.840
<v Speaker 1>the course of that five years, Selassie was in exile.

0:28:17.600 --> 0:28:21.800
<v Speaker 1>I think he was in bath, England, where he ran

0:28:21.920 --> 0:28:25.359
<v Speaker 1>a government in absentia and still kind of tried to

0:28:25.440 --> 0:28:28.880
<v Speaker 1>keep his rule going, but from outside the country which

0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:31.439
<v Speaker 1>was occupied by the Italians, which is tougher than it

0:28:31.480 --> 0:28:32.520
<v Speaker 1>even sounds.

0:28:32.960 --> 0:28:37.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally, So he is sort of rattling the saber

0:28:37.280 --> 0:28:40.640
<v Speaker 2>to the League of Nations, so much so that Time

0:28:40.680 --> 0:28:43.480
<v Speaker 2>magazine named him Man of the Year in nineteen thirty five.

0:28:44.400 --> 0:28:47.200
<v Speaker 2>But the problem was is that Europe was still courting

0:28:47.400 --> 0:28:50.280
<v Speaker 2>Italy at this point. They weren't They hadn't fully jumped

0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:53.560
<v Speaker 2>over to Germany side, and so they were sort of

0:28:53.640 --> 0:28:57.920
<v Speaker 2>on a sort of a high wire there trying to

0:28:57.960 --> 0:29:00.720
<v Speaker 2>court Italy. And even though they're a member of the

0:29:00.800 --> 0:29:03.280
<v Speaker 2>League of Nations and they were attacking another member of

0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the League of Nations, they didn't want to do anything

0:29:06.040 --> 0:29:09.480
<v Speaker 2>to tick off Italy too much. So the new British

0:29:09.480 --> 0:29:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Foreign Secretary guy named Samuel Horr got into private talks

0:29:13.920 --> 0:29:17.120
<v Speaker 2>with the French Prime Minister Pierre Laval, and they came

0:29:17.200 --> 0:29:22.040
<v Speaker 2>up with the Horror Laval Pact, which essentially said, Ethiopia,

0:29:22.080 --> 0:29:24.400
<v Speaker 2>if you give up basically half of your land to Italy,

0:29:25.200 --> 0:29:28.040
<v Speaker 2>we can make the fighting stop. They never released it,

0:29:28.080 --> 0:29:33.200
<v Speaker 2>but it was leaked to the press and there was outrage,

0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:36.040
<v Speaker 2>of course, and it essentially was sort of the first

0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:39.320
<v Speaker 2>blow to what would be the death of the League

0:29:39.320 --> 0:29:40.000
<v Speaker 2>of Nations.

0:29:40.320 --> 0:29:44.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I think another thing that Holly Selassie's speech did

0:29:44.280 --> 0:29:46.520
<v Speaker 1>to contribute to the League of Nations was to basically

0:29:46.600 --> 0:29:49.800
<v Speaker 1>point out like, hey, you guys aren't doing anything that

0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:52.720
<v Speaker 1>you agreed to do, Like all of you condemned Italy's

0:29:52.760 --> 0:29:55.720
<v Speaker 1>invasion as a straight up invasion. And here I am

0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:58.720
<v Speaker 1>to ask you to help me buy arms. Don't even

0:29:58.760 --> 0:30:00.640
<v Speaker 1>give me, just give me money so I can go

0:30:00.680 --> 0:30:03.360
<v Speaker 1>buy arms, and you still won't do it. What's the

0:30:03.480 --> 0:30:06.479
<v Speaker 1>use of this thing? So that was another blow to it.

0:30:06.520 --> 0:30:14.280
<v Speaker 1>And then subsequently Highly Selassie became even more I guess,

0:30:14.400 --> 0:30:16.960
<v Speaker 1>kind of respected on the world stage. That speech was

0:30:17.000 --> 0:30:21.240
<v Speaker 1>a huge watershed moment in his rule, in his lifetime,

0:30:21.320 --> 0:30:25.960
<v Speaker 1>even he became essentially celebrity, like you said, Time magazine

0:30:26.000 --> 0:30:28.479
<v Speaker 1>named a Man of the Year. Apparently there was an

0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:32.600
<v Speaker 1>expression in America around that time that developed that was, well,

0:30:32.640 --> 0:30:37.280
<v Speaker 1>if that's so, then I'm highly Selassie. And then there

0:30:37.320 --> 0:30:39.800
<v Speaker 1>was a song too. Olivia helps us with this. She

0:30:39.920 --> 0:30:42.800
<v Speaker 1>turned up a mention of him in a shanty and

0:30:42.880 --> 0:30:46.560
<v Speaker 1>old shantytown. I'd be just as sassy as highly Selassie

0:30:46.600 --> 0:30:47.480
<v Speaker 1>if I were a king.

0:30:49.200 --> 0:30:53.440
<v Speaker 2>So things are not going well. He is, like you said.

0:30:53.440 --> 0:30:56.880
<v Speaker 2>He went from Prince Somaliland in exile to England and

0:30:56.920 --> 0:31:01.320
<v Speaker 2>then finally in nineteen forty one, World War two as

0:31:01.360 --> 0:31:04.320
<v Speaker 2>well underway. And this is well after Italy had joined

0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:09.240
<v Speaker 2>up with the Germans and England, you know, finally helps

0:31:09.240 --> 0:31:14.040
<v Speaker 2>out mainly because Italy and Germany had threatened British territory

0:31:14.080 --> 0:31:17.800
<v Speaker 2>in Africa. England finally steps up in nineteen forty one

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:20.360
<v Speaker 2>and says, all right, well you're going to help you

0:31:20.400 --> 0:31:24.960
<v Speaker 2>out here because we're sort of threatened as well. We

0:31:25.000 --> 0:31:28.800
<v Speaker 2>have some area here in the Sudan, and so we're

0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:31.400
<v Speaker 2>going to help you assemble an army here and take

0:31:31.440 --> 0:31:32.200
<v Speaker 2>back your capital.

0:31:32.720 --> 0:31:36.040
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so that was a huge deal. It was not

0:31:36.120 --> 0:31:38.400
<v Speaker 1>just the British Army, but the British Army working in

0:31:38.560 --> 0:31:44.880
<v Speaker 1>conjunction with these fighters that were assembled in Somaliland. And

0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:47.880
<v Speaker 1>there was a guy who doesn't get his due, Lorenzo

0:31:48.040 --> 0:31:53.719
<v Speaker 1>teaz Oz, who on behalf of Selassie, organized this basically

0:31:53.760 --> 0:31:58.920
<v Speaker 1>guerrilla army that fought against the Italians and ended up winning,

0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:03.840
<v Speaker 1>pushing the Italians out of Ethiopium back into Eritrea.

0:32:05.200 --> 0:32:08.760
<v Speaker 2>That's right, and so he came back May fifth, nineteen

0:32:08.840 --> 0:32:13.560
<v Speaker 2>forty one, returned to the capitol, gave a big speech saying,

0:32:13.600 --> 0:32:15.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, we need to get the Italians out of here.

0:32:15.400 --> 0:32:16.880
<v Speaker 2>But we need to do it in a way that's

0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:20.080
<v Speaker 2>not like they were doing things, because you know, we're

0:32:20.200 --> 0:32:23.080
<v Speaker 2>above that kind of thing. And so he's finally back

0:32:23.120 --> 0:32:28.720
<v Speaker 2>on his throne. He begins in the early nineteen forties

0:32:29.360 --> 0:32:33.720
<v Speaker 2>to abolish slavery. I think in nineteen forty two is

0:32:33.720 --> 0:32:36.960
<v Speaker 2>when they say he officially abolished it, but it took

0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:39.200
<v Speaker 2>a long time for it to completely, you know, get

0:32:39.240 --> 0:32:42.720
<v Speaker 2>removed from the system. But you know, like I said,

0:32:42.800 --> 0:32:45.760
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen twenty three is when they said, hey, get

0:32:45.840 --> 0:32:47.840
<v Speaker 2>rid of slavery. So that was a couple of decades.

0:32:49.440 --> 0:32:52.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. And Marcus Garvey, who as we'll see, played a

0:32:52.760 --> 0:32:56.400
<v Speaker 1>huge role in the development of the cult of personality

0:32:56.400 --> 0:32:59.520
<v Speaker 1>for Higley Selassie, was turned out to be pretty critical

0:32:59.520 --> 0:33:04.080
<v Speaker 1>of him, and for one reason was because Selassie allowed

0:33:04.120 --> 0:33:07.640
<v Speaker 1>slavery to continue for decades after he became the ruler

0:33:07.680 --> 0:33:11.400
<v Speaker 1>of Ethiopia and Garvey. That didn't sit well with Garvey.

0:33:11.560 --> 0:33:14.440
<v Speaker 1>He also called him a coward for leaving Ethiopia to

0:33:14.440 --> 0:33:18.120
<v Speaker 1>go run the government in Absentia. You can definitely see

0:33:18.120 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 1>both points of view for him staying or going. And

0:33:22.760 --> 0:33:25.400
<v Speaker 1>it worked out because he sat back on his throne

0:33:25.400 --> 0:33:28.160
<v Speaker 1>again five years to the day after the Italians invaded.

0:33:28.520 --> 0:33:32.000
<v Speaker 1>But regardless of how that happened, when he came back

0:33:32.320 --> 0:33:36.400
<v Speaker 1>to rule again in nineteen forty one, he was more

0:33:36.880 --> 0:33:41.040
<v Speaker 1>well thought of by Ethiopians and the rest of the

0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:45.080
<v Speaker 1>world alike than he was even before the Italian invasion.

0:33:45.520 --> 0:33:50.200
<v Speaker 1>So he got back to modernizing again, and he put

0:33:50.200 --> 0:33:52.960
<v Speaker 1>his foot on the gas I think a little harder

0:33:53.000 --> 0:33:54.800
<v Speaker 1>than he should. I think he was really trying to

0:33:54.800 --> 0:33:58.040
<v Speaker 1>make up for the enormous setback that the Italian occupation

0:33:58.120 --> 0:33:58.760
<v Speaker 1>had created.

0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:04.720
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, also a lot of internal strife within Ethiopia after

0:34:06.400 --> 0:34:10.280
<v Speaker 2>the United States actually stepped up and helped unite Eritrea

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:14.120
<v Speaker 2>with Ethiopia again in nineteen fifty two. One thing it

0:34:14.120 --> 0:34:16.560
<v Speaker 2>did was it gave Ethiopia access to the Red Sea,

0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:19.400
<v Speaker 2>which was a big deal, but it wasn't a true

0:34:19.719 --> 0:34:25.520
<v Speaker 2>like unification. Eritrea remained had like an independent government in

0:34:25.560 --> 0:34:29.200
<v Speaker 2>a lot of ways, still highly Selassie did not like this.

0:34:29.320 --> 0:34:32.160
<v Speaker 2>He wanted more control, and in nineteen sixty two he

0:34:32.280 --> 0:34:39.279
<v Speaker 2>dissolved their parliament and basically sort of annexed them, which

0:34:39.360 --> 0:34:42.600
<v Speaker 2>led to the creation of the Eritrean Liberation Front the

0:34:42.600 --> 0:34:48.920
<v Speaker 2>ELF and basically three decade internal civil war of you know,

0:34:49.000 --> 0:34:53.160
<v Speaker 2>kind of constant uprisings within Ethiopia from the Eritreans.

0:34:53.480 --> 0:34:57.720
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Eritrea finally regained its independence and I think nineteen

0:34:57.760 --> 0:35:03.080
<v Speaker 1>ninety four years and years of essentially civil war. Because

0:35:03.080 --> 0:35:05.200
<v Speaker 1>again we were talking at the outset of this that

0:35:06.239 --> 0:35:10.040
<v Speaker 1>these were groups of different people. These were different ethnic

0:35:10.040 --> 0:35:11.919
<v Speaker 1>groups that had lived in the same area but had

0:35:11.960 --> 0:35:16.080
<v Speaker 1>now been put under unification. They were all now considered Ethiopians,

0:35:16.120 --> 0:35:20.400
<v Speaker 1>but they had their own ethnic consciousness and they did not.

0:35:20.520 --> 0:35:23.960
<v Speaker 1>A lot of them did not like being considered Ethiopians.

0:35:24.280 --> 0:35:28.120
<v Speaker 1>I think the Ormo people in particular bristled at the

0:35:28.200 --> 0:35:32.560
<v Speaker 1>idea the most because they had the largest population in Ethiopia.

0:35:33.200 --> 0:35:37.239
<v Speaker 1>And yet the Amhara people of which Hiley Selassie was

0:35:37.239 --> 0:35:41.640
<v Speaker 1>one and the whole Solomonic dynasty was from the Amhara people.

0:35:43.040 --> 0:35:46.239
<v Speaker 1>They were the ones who were ruling things. So imagine that.

0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:49.759
<v Speaker 1>Imagine that this other group that you've been kind of

0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:54.320
<v Speaker 1>rivals with for centuries now is telling your group exactly

0:35:54.400 --> 0:35:57.120
<v Speaker 1>what to do, where to live, which taxing you, is

0:35:57.160 --> 0:35:59.560
<v Speaker 1>saying you're with us now, whether you like it or not.

0:36:00.080 --> 0:36:03.359
<v Speaker 1>That was the kind of like internal strife that was

0:36:03.400 --> 0:36:07.239
<v Speaker 1>just kind of rubbing Ethiopia at the edges throughout the

0:36:07.400 --> 0:36:11.839
<v Speaker 1>entire the entirety of the highly selassies rule.

0:36:12.320 --> 0:36:15.239
<v Speaker 2>Yeah for sure, And like you said, he's got his

0:36:15.280 --> 0:36:18.440
<v Speaker 2>foot on the gas. In the nineteen fifties, in particular,

0:36:18.880 --> 0:36:23.399
<v Speaker 2>in fifty five, they passed a new, a brand new,

0:36:23.719 --> 0:36:28.600
<v Speaker 2>brand spanking new, very shiny constitution, further modernizing the judiciary

0:36:28.640 --> 0:36:31.920
<v Speaker 2>for one. This time, parliament was elected by the people,

0:36:32.400 --> 0:36:36.440
<v Speaker 2>more human rights were guaranteed, but it was still not

0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:40.960
<v Speaker 2>like a Western style democracy. Highly Selassi was still very

0:36:41.040 --> 0:36:45.239
<v Speaker 2>much in charge and more popular than ever on the

0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:48.680
<v Speaker 2>international stage. He's all of a sudden visiting the United States.

0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:52.600
<v Speaker 2>I believe FDR invited him after World War Two, but

0:36:52.680 --> 0:36:55.960
<v Speaker 2>he never went. So he finally came at Eisenhower's behest,

0:36:56.800 --> 0:37:01.960
<v Speaker 2>had a ticker tape parade in Manhattan. Highly Selassie went

0:37:02.200 --> 0:37:06.319
<v Speaker 2>to a Yankees game, went to Yosemite National Park, just

0:37:06.360 --> 0:37:09.920
<v Speaker 2>does this big, like kind of pr tour through America.

0:37:09.960 --> 0:37:12.320
<v Speaker 2>It's really interesting, Yeah for sure.

0:37:12.880 --> 0:37:16.080
<v Speaker 1>And again like this guy was like Americans couldn't believe

0:37:16.080 --> 0:37:17.759
<v Speaker 1>what they were seeing. Like this is a time where

0:37:17.760 --> 0:37:21.200
<v Speaker 1>there was still like segregation in America and here's this

0:37:21.680 --> 0:37:25.839
<v Speaker 1>black African leader's who just revered in the United States.

0:37:25.880 --> 0:37:28.440
<v Speaker 1>It's just like cognitive dissonance. But they were just thrilled

0:37:28.480 --> 0:37:32.680
<v Speaker 1>by this guy, right, so highly Selassie ate that stuff up.

0:37:32.960 --> 0:37:35.640
<v Speaker 1>He loved that. One of the big criticisms of him

0:37:35.680 --> 0:37:38.160
<v Speaker 1>in retrospect, and I think even at the time, was

0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:44.200
<v Speaker 1>that his preferred company were Europeans and Americans and other

0:37:44.360 --> 0:37:47.279
<v Speaker 1>people of wealthy countries. That's who he liked to rub

0:37:47.320 --> 0:37:49.600
<v Speaker 1>elbows with. That's who was invited to the parties that

0:37:49.680 --> 0:37:54.520
<v Speaker 1>he threw in the royal palaces. He didn't he didn't

0:37:54.560 --> 0:37:58.400
<v Speaker 1>seem to think that much about the people he ruled

0:37:58.560 --> 0:38:01.680
<v Speaker 1>and who essentially gave him all the power that he had,

0:38:02.000 --> 0:38:06.239
<v Speaker 1>that he went and used to basically enrich himself in

0:38:05.760 --> 0:38:07.080
<v Speaker 1>his own image.

0:38:08.040 --> 0:38:10.040
<v Speaker 2>I think that's a great setup for a break.

0:38:11.920 --> 0:38:16.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, oh sure, yeah, I don't like to toot my

0:38:16.120 --> 0:38:18.120
<v Speaker 1>own horn, So you just put me on the spot,

0:38:18.640 --> 0:38:18.920
<v Speaker 1>all right.

0:38:18.960 --> 0:38:44.879
<v Speaker 2>We'll be right back after this, all right. So when

0:38:44.880 --> 0:38:47.440
<v Speaker 2>we left off, you were talking about the fact that

0:38:47.560 --> 0:38:53.080
<v Speaker 2>Hayley Selassie was very popular internationally, not so much or

0:38:53.160 --> 0:38:55.799
<v Speaker 2>not as much at home at least like with everybody.

0:38:56.040 --> 0:38:58.279
<v Speaker 2>He had factions of people who loved him in Ethiopia,

0:38:58.320 --> 0:39:00.360
<v Speaker 2>but it was complicated and.

0:39:00.360 --> 0:39:04.040
<v Speaker 1>They were probably mostly from the Amhara ethnic group too, remember.

0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:08.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. So he's got a situation sort of

0:39:08.680 --> 0:39:13.400
<v Speaker 2>where he's getting older, he's trying to push progressive ideals

0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:17.360
<v Speaker 2>that are popular with the young people, not as popular

0:39:17.440 --> 0:39:20.880
<v Speaker 2>with the older guard, of course, and that creates a

0:39:20.880 --> 0:39:24.359
<v Speaker 2>lot of internal strife. And he's also got this sort

0:39:24.360 --> 0:39:30.280
<v Speaker 2>of ongoing problem with the Elf. All these ethnicities mixed together,

0:39:31.200 --> 0:39:33.600
<v Speaker 2>there's going to be some strife. And finally, in December

0:39:33.680 --> 0:39:37.480
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty, he was in Brazil and members of his

0:39:37.640 --> 0:39:42.799
<v Speaker 2>imperial bodyguard staged a coup and they proclaimed that his

0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:47.880
<v Speaker 2>son Selassie son Crown Prince Asphal Wolsen, was the new emperor.

0:39:48.560 --> 0:39:50.719
<v Speaker 2>There were about four days of violence in about three

0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:55.440
<v Speaker 2>hundred deaths, but it was suppressed and those leaders the

0:39:55.520 --> 0:40:01.240
<v Speaker 2>formal imperial bodyguards were killed. And this really change things

0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:03.959
<v Speaker 2>as far as sort of setting up the last couple

0:40:04.040 --> 0:40:09.000
<v Speaker 2>of decades of Selassie's rule and reign as as basically

0:40:09.040 --> 0:40:09.880
<v Speaker 2>a police state.

0:40:11.520 --> 0:40:16.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and yet he still was a shrewd ruler, internal

0:40:16.360 --> 0:40:20.560
<v Speaker 1>ruler that the coup had set up shop in the

0:40:20.640 --> 0:40:24.400
<v Speaker 1>Royal Palace while he was away, and he donated that

0:40:24.520 --> 0:40:29.840
<v Speaker 1>royal palace to establish the university, the first university in Ethiopia,

0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:33.040
<v Speaker 1>which became a Disa Baba University, which is a highly

0:40:33.080 --> 0:40:37.960
<v Speaker 1>respected university today. And so like it was a it

0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:40.800
<v Speaker 1>was a really shrewd move on his part, basically placate

0:40:41.400 --> 0:40:45.640
<v Speaker 1>the young intelligensia, who were definitely part of that coup,

0:40:46.120 --> 0:40:50.560
<v Speaker 1>if not you know, in physically, at least in spirit.

0:40:51.840 --> 0:40:54.480
<v Speaker 1>So they were they were like, Okay, we're getting a university.

0:40:54.600 --> 0:40:56.440
<v Speaker 1>And at the same time, he knows he's taking his

0:40:56.440 --> 0:40:59.560
<v Speaker 1>foot off the modernizing gas and he needs to basically

0:40:59.600 --> 0:41:03.400
<v Speaker 1>consult his power even further, probably take them back and

0:41:03.840 --> 0:41:05.920
<v Speaker 1>remind everybody that he's still emperor.

0:41:06.640 --> 0:41:09.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure. One of the truly seems like great

0:41:09.880 --> 0:41:14.799
<v Speaker 2>things he did was in nineteen sixty three when he

0:41:14.880 --> 0:41:19.800
<v Speaker 2>led the movement to establish the Organization of African Unity THEAU,

0:41:19.960 --> 0:41:24.399
<v Speaker 2>which was basically thirty two African nations that had won

0:41:24.480 --> 0:41:28.360
<v Speaker 2>independence at that time getting together establishing this union, I

0:41:28.400 --> 0:41:32.080
<v Speaker 2>believe it's now called the African Union. And you know,

0:41:32.160 --> 0:41:35.320
<v Speaker 2>they had bold, you know, pretty great objectives. They wanted

0:41:35.320 --> 0:41:39.200
<v Speaker 2>to improve life for Africans, they wanted to protect the

0:41:39.360 --> 0:41:42.600
<v Speaker 2>sovereignty of the countries that had won their independence, and

0:41:42.760 --> 0:41:44.799
<v Speaker 2>he was of course chosen as the first president of

0:41:44.840 --> 0:41:49.040
<v Speaker 2>the OAU, And he was in his seventies at this point,

0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:52.120
<v Speaker 2>like he was getting on up there in age. Yeah.

0:41:52.120 --> 0:41:54.800
<v Speaker 1>And it's ironic because he was like an elder statesman

0:41:54.880 --> 0:42:00.840
<v Speaker 1>compared to the much younger, generally democratic leaders that were

0:42:01.120 --> 0:42:03.800
<v Speaker 1>the other that made up the rest of the African

0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:07.200
<v Speaker 1>Union countries, right, And they were there, all those younger

0:42:07.520 --> 0:42:09.680
<v Speaker 1>rulers were there, or leaders, I should say, they weren't

0:42:09.760 --> 0:42:13.959
<v Speaker 1>rulers because this wave of decolonization had been kicked off

0:42:14.160 --> 0:42:17.600
<v Speaker 1>by Ghana and I think the early sixties, and so

0:42:17.719 --> 0:42:20.160
<v Speaker 1>that was one of the purposes of the African Union,

0:42:20.239 --> 0:42:23.800
<v Speaker 1>or at first the OAU, was to basically say, okay,

0:42:23.880 --> 0:42:26.480
<v Speaker 1>we need to like level set again. This is a

0:42:26.520 --> 0:42:29.839
<v Speaker 1>new continent. We're taking it back, we're setting up new

0:42:29.880 --> 0:42:32.319
<v Speaker 1>governments and all that. So it's kind of ironic that

0:42:32.400 --> 0:42:35.680
<v Speaker 1>Higley Selassie was the first president of the Organization of

0:42:35.719 --> 0:42:38.680
<v Speaker 1>African Unity because he was exactly the kind of person

0:42:39.120 --> 0:42:44.840
<v Speaker 1>who was being toppled elsewhere around Africa, except he was

0:42:44.920 --> 0:42:48.600
<v Speaker 1>not toppled because he had never been colonized. Although other

0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:53.120
<v Speaker 1>groups in Ethiopia considered him a colonizer. He managed to

0:42:53.160 --> 0:42:57.120
<v Speaker 1>survive that wave and strangely was made the president of

0:42:57.160 --> 0:42:57.760
<v Speaker 1>the OAU.

0:42:58.600 --> 0:43:01.839
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I think it was just because he was such

0:43:01.840 --> 0:43:08.040
<v Speaker 2>a popular worldwide popular figure, is what I can figure.

0:43:08.120 --> 0:43:12.279
<v Speaker 2>So it almost seemed like it was like it was

0:43:12.320 --> 0:43:13.920
<v Speaker 2>just sort of destined to be that he would be

0:43:13.960 --> 0:43:16.600
<v Speaker 2>their first president, even though if they really thought about it,

0:43:16.640 --> 0:43:18.640
<v Speaker 2>and I don't even know if they held a vote,

0:43:18.640 --> 0:43:20.839
<v Speaker 2>actually I meant to look that up, yeah, or if

0:43:20.840 --> 0:43:22.920
<v Speaker 2>he was basically just like, I'll be president, right.

0:43:23.400 --> 0:43:26.480
<v Speaker 1>Right, he called president first, I call it.

0:43:27.040 --> 0:43:32.319
<v Speaker 2>So toward the end of his run, more criticism coming

0:43:32.400 --> 0:43:37.240
<v Speaker 2>him way from within Ethiopia. Their inflation is really high,

0:43:37.600 --> 0:43:43.560
<v Speaker 2>there are people living in poverty. Any descent was squash squashed,

0:43:43.640 --> 0:43:48.080
<v Speaker 2>Leaders of descent disappeared. He still had a positive view

0:43:48.120 --> 0:43:51.680
<v Speaker 2>internationally through all of this somehow, but that was not

0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:53.560
<v Speaker 2>the truth of the matter back home.

0:43:54.480 --> 0:43:58.400
<v Speaker 1>No, and that kind of stuff was making people bristle

0:43:58.480 --> 0:44:01.200
<v Speaker 1>further and further, not just the other ethnic groups like

0:44:01.239 --> 0:44:07.279
<v Speaker 1>the Oromo or the Somalis, but like even people in

0:44:07.360 --> 0:44:11.640
<v Speaker 1>his own you know, his own group. They were they

0:44:11.880 --> 0:44:15.080
<v Speaker 1>there was a huge problem. No matter how good a ruler.

0:44:15.120 --> 0:44:17.120
<v Speaker 1>He was viewed as there was always going to be

0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:20.719
<v Speaker 1>a people who were saying, it's the nineteen sixties and

0:44:20.760 --> 0:44:24.000
<v Speaker 1>we still have an emperor. Can we look any more backwards?

0:44:24.400 --> 0:44:27.920
<v Speaker 1>Just that alone, yeah, kind of put a time limit

0:44:28.040 --> 0:44:30.480
<v Speaker 1>on how much longer he was going to rule. But

0:44:30.520 --> 0:44:34.399
<v Speaker 1>then that whole kind of crackdown phase of his rule

0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:37.719
<v Speaker 1>also really really had a huge hit on his popularity

0:44:37.800 --> 0:44:39.480
<v Speaker 1>too among other quarters.

0:44:39.719 --> 0:44:42.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, he was like when I was thirteen, man, emperors

0:44:42.840 --> 0:44:43.640
<v Speaker 2>were all the rage.

0:44:44.000 --> 0:44:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's a great point that when he came into power,

0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:49.640
<v Speaker 1>that was that was normal. But he stayed in power

0:44:49.640 --> 0:44:54.040
<v Speaker 1>for so long that he outlived the age of emperors.

0:44:53.520 --> 0:44:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Weirdly sixty something years. The other problem, or another problem,

0:44:58.040 --> 0:45:03.600
<v Speaker 2>was the fact that he as emperor had a very lavish, luxurious,

0:45:05.239 --> 0:45:10.399
<v Speaker 2>some say wasteful lifestyle, which was not a popular thing

0:45:10.480 --> 0:45:13.560
<v Speaker 2>to do when your country is struggling in a lot

0:45:13.600 --> 0:45:17.240
<v Speaker 2>of ways, certainly when they were hit by their second

0:45:17.239 --> 0:45:21.839
<v Speaker 2>really huge famine at the beginning of nineteen seventy two.

0:45:22.719 --> 0:45:26.760
<v Speaker 2>This was a famine in the Wallow Province where eventually,

0:45:26.800 --> 0:45:29.120
<v Speaker 2>over the course of three years, by nineteen seventy five,

0:45:29.200 --> 0:45:31.920
<v Speaker 2>more than I saw up to two hundred and fifty thousand,

0:45:32.000 --> 0:45:36.319
<v Speaker 2>maybe two hundred thousand people died. And he's how much

0:45:36.360 --> 0:45:39.520
<v Speaker 2>did he was his birthday party? Thirty something million dollars.

0:45:39.600 --> 0:45:42.880
<v Speaker 1>I spent thirty five million dollars on his eightieth birthday

0:45:42.880 --> 0:45:46.319
<v Speaker 1>party in nineteen seventy two while this famine was going on.

0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:49.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, right in the middle of this thing, there was

0:45:50.120 --> 0:45:53.080
<v Speaker 2>actual food being I'm not sure what, but there was

0:45:53.120 --> 0:45:56.160
<v Speaker 2>food being produced and Walla and he was exporting it

0:45:56.239 --> 0:45:57.319
<v Speaker 2>elsewhere at the time.

0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:01.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, somebody pointed out I can't remember which article it was,

0:46:02.239 --> 0:46:04.960
<v Speaker 1>maybe one from London School of Economics that said, like

0:46:05.239 --> 0:46:08.880
<v Speaker 1>the areas that experienced famine and Ethiopia were the ones

0:46:08.920 --> 0:46:11.280
<v Speaker 1>that were the most restless against his rule.

0:46:11.760 --> 0:46:13.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh. Interesting, Like there was one.

0:46:13.760 --> 0:46:16.680
<v Speaker 1>Region that he asked the Brits the bomb in nineteen

0:46:16.760 --> 0:46:19.000
<v Speaker 1>forty two while they were there, like, hey, before you go,

0:46:19.400 --> 0:46:23.160
<v Speaker 1>do you mind bombing this restless region up to the north.

0:46:23.360 --> 0:46:27.120
<v Speaker 1>I think it might have been the Waller region. Yeah, Like,

0:46:27.160 --> 0:46:29.040
<v Speaker 1>if you messed with him, there was a good chance

0:46:29.080 --> 0:46:31.360
<v Speaker 1>that you were going to suffer some sort of famine

0:46:31.400 --> 0:46:36.719
<v Speaker 1>and exporting the food that you were producing. Again, feudal society,

0:46:37.000 --> 0:46:38.759
<v Speaker 1>you could do that kind of thing that would be

0:46:38.800 --> 0:46:41.560
<v Speaker 1>a great way to guarantee you famine. And then even

0:46:41.600 --> 0:46:44.440
<v Speaker 1>without meddling in it directly, whether he did or not,

0:46:45.000 --> 0:46:50.240
<v Speaker 1>he definitely tried to downplay it internally and externally because

0:46:50.320 --> 0:46:52.960
<v Speaker 1>he didn't want it to tarnish his reputation. Apparently he

0:46:53.040 --> 0:46:56.760
<v Speaker 1>was mad at the people in the famine stricken areas

0:46:56.800 --> 0:47:00.680
<v Speaker 1>for starving because it looked it reflected badly in him.

0:47:00.960 --> 0:47:05.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's not a good look. So things are unraveling,

0:47:05.560 --> 0:47:09.440
<v Speaker 2>and it's pretty clear that it's unraveling a lot of

0:47:09.480 --> 0:47:13.160
<v Speaker 2>protesters happening. All of a sudden, the union, the labor

0:47:13.160 --> 0:47:16.479
<v Speaker 2>force has gone on strike. This is in nineteen seventy four.

0:47:17.160 --> 0:47:19.719
<v Speaker 2>And finally, in the summer of nineteen seventy four, a

0:47:19.760 --> 0:47:25.040
<v Speaker 2>group called the DIRG, the Provisional Military Administrative Council, which

0:47:25.120 --> 0:47:29.560
<v Speaker 2>were this wasn't upper military brass. They were relatively low

0:47:29.640 --> 0:47:34.080
<v Speaker 2>ranking officers and officials. They seize power in nineteen seventy four.

0:47:34.160 --> 0:47:38.960
<v Speaker 2>It was a coup and in September of nineteen seventy

0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:43.319
<v Speaker 2>four they deposed him, placed him under house arrest and said,

0:47:43.400 --> 0:47:47.880
<v Speaker 2>your son, who previously was named emperor, even though that

0:47:47.920 --> 0:47:51.439
<v Speaker 2>never happened, was named emperor once again for a very

0:47:51.480 --> 0:47:54.759
<v Speaker 2>short time, from the summer of seventy four to March

0:47:54.800 --> 0:47:59.920
<v Speaker 2>of seventy five, when the DIRG abolished the Ethiopian monarchy altogether.

0:48:01.520 --> 0:48:05.520
<v Speaker 1>Yes, so highly. Selassie is still living in the Royal Palace,

0:48:05.560 --> 0:48:10.800
<v Speaker 1>but now he's under house arrest essentially, and the DIG

0:48:11.160 --> 0:48:13.960
<v Speaker 1>this new government is led by a guy named Mangiestu

0:48:14.440 --> 0:48:18.160
<v Speaker 1>hall Mariam, and they created what was known as a

0:48:18.200 --> 0:48:23.080
<v Speaker 1>Red Terror like they essentially said we're no, no, committed

0:48:23.120 --> 0:48:26.280
<v Speaker 1>tons and tons of war crimes like killed thousands of people,

0:48:26.360 --> 0:48:30.080
<v Speaker 1>tortured tens of thousands of more, and basically said we're

0:48:30.120 --> 0:48:32.600
<v Speaker 1>not We're not with the US any longer. We're now

0:48:32.600 --> 0:48:35.440
<v Speaker 1>with the Soviet Union and we're just redoing everything in

0:48:35.480 --> 0:48:40.399
<v Speaker 1>the most bloody way possible. Unfortunately, they held power for

0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:43.760
<v Speaker 1>the next twenty years. It wasn't until they were deposed

0:48:43.800 --> 0:48:46.200
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen ninety four and replaced by a more democratic

0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:50.720
<v Speaker 1>government that they were charged with all the horrible atrocities

0:48:50.760 --> 0:48:53.880
<v Speaker 1>that they had. But long before that happened, while the

0:48:54.080 --> 0:48:59.960
<v Speaker 1>DIRG was just brand new, Holly Selassie was reported as dead,

0:49:00.640 --> 0:49:02.920
<v Speaker 1>I think in August of nineteen seventy five. He was

0:49:02.960 --> 0:49:06.120
<v Speaker 1>found dead in his little apartment in the Royal Palace,

0:49:06.680 --> 0:49:10.000
<v Speaker 1>and the leaders were like, yeah, he had a prostate

0:49:10.080 --> 0:49:12.560
<v Speaker 1>operation a couple of months ago and probably was a

0:49:12.600 --> 0:49:16.600
<v Speaker 1>complication from that, but anyway, it's Ethiopian tradition to bury

0:49:16.600 --> 0:49:18.520
<v Speaker 1>people within twenty four hours, so we're going to do

0:49:18.560 --> 0:49:19.160
<v Speaker 1>it in twelve.

0:49:19.920 --> 0:49:23.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it was. I think that the inside story was

0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:28.160
<v Speaker 2>that he was strangled by Dirk soldiers. It seems pretty

0:49:28.160 --> 0:49:30.799
<v Speaker 2>obvious he was gotten rid of. I think there were

0:49:30.800 --> 0:49:34.200
<v Speaker 2>some people that said that he was in the Crown Prince.

0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:37.160
<v Speaker 2>Actually his son said, you know, he was in pretty

0:49:37.200 --> 0:49:40.040
<v Speaker 2>good help as far as I knew before he died,

0:49:40.160 --> 0:49:43.279
<v Speaker 2>So I know he was eighty three, but he was

0:49:44.160 --> 0:49:45.440
<v Speaker 2>not dying. No.

0:49:45.560 --> 0:49:47.880
<v Speaker 1>There was another long standing rumor that he had been

0:49:47.920 --> 0:49:51.319
<v Speaker 1>smothered with a pillow. But yes, in just the way

0:49:51.480 --> 0:49:54.480
<v Speaker 1>that he had dispatched the Empress before him. It seems

0:49:54.840 --> 0:49:57.440
<v Speaker 1>he had been dispatched as well by the Dirk. And

0:49:57.480 --> 0:50:04.319
<v Speaker 1>then in probably the most insulting way your remains can

0:50:04.320 --> 0:50:08.520
<v Speaker 1>be handled. They found that after Mariam was deposed in

0:50:08.560 --> 0:50:11.880
<v Speaker 1>nineteen ninety two, that he had been buried under the

0:50:11.960 --> 0:50:14.440
<v Speaker 1>laboratory in the Royal Palace.

0:50:15.680 --> 0:50:18.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, with a v laboratory.

0:50:18.440 --> 0:50:20.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's what it sounds like.

0:50:20.120 --> 0:50:20.920
<v Speaker 2>You said, laboratory.

0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:21.319
<v Speaker 1>No.

0:50:21.320 --> 0:50:26.560
<v Speaker 2>No, So that is highly Silassie. But we of course

0:50:26.600 --> 0:50:28.760
<v Speaker 2>have to close by talking about reggae, right.

0:50:29.080 --> 0:50:31.600
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, because there's a lot of people out there, especially

0:50:31.680 --> 0:50:34.600
<v Speaker 1>in Jamaica, who said he didn't really die and those

0:50:34.600 --> 0:50:36.759
<v Speaker 1>weren't his bones that they found and reburied.

0:50:37.480 --> 0:50:40.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. If you you know, we mentioned early in the

0:50:40.800 --> 0:50:48.960
<v Speaker 2>thing Rastafari. Rastafarian theology is basically a reference to his

0:50:49.040 --> 0:50:54.000
<v Speaker 2>identity as God as the Messiah. African descended people in

0:50:54.080 --> 0:50:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Jamaica had combined elements of Christianity other different religions in Africa.

0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:02.840
<v Speaker 2>And this is also during the Back to Africa movement

0:51:03.600 --> 0:51:05.920
<v Speaker 2>when there were you know, potentially some people in Jamaica

0:51:05.960 --> 0:51:07.560
<v Speaker 2>that were like, no, we need to go back to

0:51:07.560 --> 0:51:08.120
<v Speaker 2>the homeland.

0:51:08.800 --> 0:51:11.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I said, Marcus Garvey figures big into the

0:51:11.520 --> 0:51:15.040
<v Speaker 1>cold of personality around Holly Selassie. That's largely because in

0:51:15.080 --> 0:51:18.279
<v Speaker 1>the nineteen twenties, Marcus Garvey predicted that when a black

0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:20.680
<v Speaker 1>king shall be crowned in Africa, the day of deliverance

0:51:20.760 --> 0:51:24.440
<v Speaker 1>is at hand and that basically black people would be free,

0:51:24.960 --> 0:51:28.400
<v Speaker 1>and that Ethiopia was that whole location that you wanted

0:51:28.400 --> 0:51:30.480
<v Speaker 1>to go to if you were going back to Africa.

0:51:30.960 --> 0:51:34.600
<v Speaker 1>And it just had a huge impact on Jamaica in

0:51:34.880 --> 0:51:40.200
<v Speaker 1>part because on Coronation Day the rains came that ended

0:51:40.200 --> 0:51:43.480
<v Speaker 1>a long standing drought in Jamaica, and they were like, man,

0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:45.759
<v Speaker 1>this Garvey cat knows what he's talking about. And they

0:51:45.800 --> 0:51:49.759
<v Speaker 1>became hyper focused on Holly Selassie. So his Coronation Day

0:51:50.280 --> 0:51:52.760
<v Speaker 1>was the holiest day or is the holiest day November

0:51:52.760 --> 0:51:56.920
<v Speaker 1>second in the Rastafarian religion. And we keep saying religion

0:51:56.960 --> 0:52:04.080
<v Speaker 1>and theology. That's because Rastafarians believed that Holly Selassee was

0:52:04.239 --> 0:52:07.839
<v Speaker 1>God incarnate and still is if you believe that he

0:52:07.880 --> 0:52:10.920
<v Speaker 1>didn't actually die and that he followed in a line

0:52:11.040 --> 0:52:16.000
<v Speaker 1>of I can't remember an ancient priest, Jesus and then

0:52:16.040 --> 0:52:19.400
<v Speaker 1>Holly Selassie were the incarnations of God here on earth.

0:52:20.000 --> 0:52:24.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and he never claimed to be that. I think

0:52:24.960 --> 0:52:28.799
<v Speaker 2>I've seen that he didn't expressly deny it either. I

0:52:28.800 --> 0:52:32.000
<v Speaker 2>think he only went to Jamaica one time though, so

0:52:32.360 --> 0:52:36.880
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't like I don't know, it's a very interesting

0:52:37.239 --> 0:52:39.480
<v Speaker 2>thing that I don't fully understand, to be honest.

0:52:39.640 --> 0:52:42.720
<v Speaker 1>Well, that time that he went to Jamaica in nineteen

0:52:42.760 --> 0:52:46.320
<v Speaker 1>sixty three. That's the second holiest day in the Rastafarian religion.

0:52:46.760 --> 0:52:49.600
<v Speaker 1>They call it ground Nation Day. And one hundred thousand

0:52:49.680 --> 0:52:54.080
<v Speaker 1>Rastafarians showed up, and we're just like trying to tear

0:52:54.120 --> 0:52:55.959
<v Speaker 1>the plane apart to get him out of there, because

0:52:55.960 --> 0:52:57.880
<v Speaker 1>they wanted to see him so badly, like it was

0:52:57.920 --> 0:53:01.800
<v Speaker 1>a big deal. And because so the Rasafarians had generally

0:53:01.840 --> 0:53:06.319
<v Speaker 1>been mocked and made fun of by other Jamaicans for

0:53:06.360 --> 0:53:09.400
<v Speaker 1>the last few decades, like they've been following Highy Selassie

0:53:09.400 --> 0:53:14.240
<v Speaker 1>as their savior for thirty years by then, And after

0:53:14.280 --> 0:53:16.680
<v Speaker 1>he came and Jamaica got to see, like, oh, this

0:53:16.680 --> 0:53:20.560
<v Speaker 1>guy's actually pretty cool. A lot more people became Rastafarians,

0:53:20.760 --> 0:53:25.280
<v Speaker 1>including one woman named Rita Anderson who converted after Holly

0:53:25.280 --> 0:53:28.200
<v Speaker 1>Selassie's visit and she became Rita Marley.

0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:31.799
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh man, this one was a lot.

0:53:32.920 --> 0:53:35.600
<v Speaker 1>It was a lot. Yeah, And he lives on in reggae.

0:53:36.160 --> 0:53:38.360
<v Speaker 1>If you want to learn more about Holly Selassie, you

0:53:38.400 --> 0:53:40.719
<v Speaker 1>can listen to a bunch of reggae. You can go

0:53:40.840 --> 0:53:44.560
<v Speaker 1>read historical accounts, you can read all sorts of stuff

0:53:44.600 --> 0:53:48.720
<v Speaker 1>about him, and you'll get just this hugely complex, complicated picture.

0:53:48.960 --> 0:53:51.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, for sure, I hope he did a good job.

0:53:51.680 --> 0:53:54.520
<v Speaker 2>You know what this one did is it as I

0:53:54.600 --> 0:53:58.760
<v Speaker 2>was researching it, it laid bare just how little African

0:53:58.880 --> 0:54:02.320
<v Speaker 2>history you're taught in an American school.

0:54:03.040 --> 0:54:04.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. I mean that's one of the reason we wanted

0:54:04.840 --> 0:54:07.120
<v Speaker 1>to do this, is just to kind of shake that

0:54:07.239 --> 0:54:08.200
<v Speaker 1>up a little bit at least.

0:54:08.320 --> 0:54:10.640
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, for sure. But usually when we're researching other

0:54:10.800 --> 0:54:13.120
<v Speaker 2>types of history, it's like, yeah, I've sort of heard

0:54:13.120 --> 0:54:15.160
<v Speaker 2>this here and there. I don't fully remember, but like,

0:54:15.400 --> 0:54:20.279
<v Speaker 2>this was a ground up learning experience for me. I

0:54:20.320 --> 0:54:23.840
<v Speaker 2>knew nothing about the history of Ethiopia, so really interesting

0:54:23.840 --> 0:54:25.160
<v Speaker 2>stuff it is.

0:54:25.280 --> 0:54:27.279
<v Speaker 1>Is also kind of exciting too, because that means that

0:54:27.320 --> 0:54:29.600
<v Speaker 1>there's a whole continent with the rich history that we

0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:32.280
<v Speaker 1>haven't even begun to tap into. You know, yeah, totally

0:54:33.400 --> 0:54:35.680
<v Speaker 1>look out for more in twenty twenty four. That's right,

0:54:37.280 --> 0:54:40.000
<v Speaker 1>if you want to know more about Highley Selassie. I

0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:42.320
<v Speaker 1>think I just explained how you could do that, which

0:54:42.360 --> 0:54:44.400
<v Speaker 1>means that we've already I guess begun.

0:54:44.480 --> 0:54:51.279
<v Speaker 2>Listener mail, that's right. This is on ap classes from

0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:55.640
<v Speaker 2>our episode on What was that specifically about?

0:54:56.600 --> 0:54:58.760
<v Speaker 1>I think that was the pig Malian Effect episode.

0:54:58.880 --> 0:55:01.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. Hey, guys, I'm a high

0:55:01.520 --> 0:55:05.200
<v Speaker 2>school teacher at a public school in suburban Cincinnata. I

0:55:05.280 --> 0:55:08.839
<v Speaker 2>currently teach AP human geography and AP World History. I've

0:55:08.840 --> 0:55:12.480
<v Speaker 2>also taught APUs history, AP government, and AP psychology in

0:55:12.520 --> 0:55:14.880
<v Speaker 2>the past. Just so you know, the big trend and

0:55:14.920 --> 0:55:17.880
<v Speaker 2>AP across the country the last decade plus has been

0:55:17.920 --> 0:55:19.880
<v Speaker 2>to open it up to as many students as possible.

0:55:20.800 --> 0:55:23.720
<v Speaker 2>We still have a teacher, we still have teacher recommendations

0:55:24.200 --> 0:55:26.520
<v Speaker 2>for AP class at our school, but if any kid

0:55:27.120 --> 0:55:29.520
<v Speaker 2>wants to take a certain AP class, they can. For

0:55:29.560 --> 0:55:33.480
<v Speaker 2>the most part, classes like AP human geography are certainly

0:55:33.520 --> 0:55:35.360
<v Speaker 2>more accessible for a lot of students in a class

0:55:35.400 --> 0:55:40.080
<v Speaker 2>that requires a lot of prerequisite knowledge like apchemistry. In general, though,

0:55:40.120 --> 0:55:43.440
<v Speaker 2>AP classes have changed a lot since the nineties and

0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:46.080
<v Speaker 2>are far less exclusive than they once were. And of course,

0:55:46.640 --> 0:55:48.000
<v Speaker 2>I'm sure it was like this and you were there.

0:55:48.400 --> 0:55:50.919
<v Speaker 2>You had a test to get into an AP class, right.

0:55:51.239 --> 0:55:54.239
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, yeah, they just thought they didn't stink at

0:55:54.320 --> 0:55:54.720
<v Speaker 1>at all.

0:55:56.600 --> 0:55:58.920
<v Speaker 2>That's right. Thanks for all you do, guys. Listen to

0:55:59.040 --> 0:56:01.919
<v Speaker 2>all the episodes and I include what I learned from

0:56:01.960 --> 0:56:05.279
<v Speaker 2>you into my classes. Whenever I can. And that is

0:56:05.320 --> 0:56:08.200
<v Speaker 2>from Connor teacher in Cincinnati.

0:56:09.040 --> 0:56:11.719
<v Speaker 1>That's awesome. I really hope that some of those AP

0:56:11.920 --> 0:56:14.840
<v Speaker 1>teachers who thwarted me time and time again are alive

0:56:14.920 --> 0:56:18.600
<v Speaker 1>to see that our work is being used in AP classes.

0:56:18.680 --> 0:56:21.240
<v Speaker 1>That's right, man, what a turn of events.

0:56:21.320 --> 0:56:23.200
<v Speaker 2>Huh you showed them.

0:56:23.880 --> 0:56:25.920
<v Speaker 1>If you want to be like Connor and give us

0:56:25.920 --> 0:56:28.400
<v Speaker 1>some great information that will just make our day. We

0:56:28.520 --> 0:56:31.160
<v Speaker 1>love to hear that kind of stuff. You can wrap

0:56:31.200 --> 0:56:33.080
<v Speaker 1>it up, spank it on the bottom, and send it

0:56:33.120 --> 0:56:37.960
<v Speaker 1>off to stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

0:56:39.400 --> 0:56:42.279
<v Speaker 2>Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

0:56:42.360 --> 0:56:46.520
<v Speaker 2>more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

0:56:46.640 --> 0:56:48.480
<v Speaker 2>or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.