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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and welcome to Next Question.

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Speaker 1: For a special edition of Next Question, I had a

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Speaker 1: wonderful conversation with Dr Anthony Faucci. Dr Faucci, how are

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Speaker 1: you fine? Thank you? How are you? This has been

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Speaker 1: an unprecedented time in our nation's history. The country, and

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Speaker 1: in fact the world, was already losing faith in science.

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Speaker 1: But Dr Faucci has been a much needed bomb, a

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Speaker 1: sav of sorts for our wounded spirit, and he has

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Speaker 1: helped emphasize the importance of science and facts. The nation's

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Speaker 1: top infectious disease expert has also become something of a celebrity.

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Speaker 1: You can buy Dr Fauci mugs, t shirt, socks, bobble heads,

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Speaker 1: you name it. Brad Pitt even landed an Emmy nomination

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Speaker 1: for playing him on SNL. And when I hear things

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Speaker 1: like the virus can be cured if everyone takes the

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Speaker 1: tide Pod challenge, I'll be there to say please don't.

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Speaker 1: So far, the coronavirus has infected more than six million

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Speaker 1: Americans and killed one hundred and eighty seven thousand, and

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Speaker 1: As we head into the fall, health officials are bracing

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Speaker 1: to battle what could be in fact a twin demic

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Speaker 1: as the virus outbreak collides with blue season. I spoke

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Speaker 1: with Dr Fauci about how we can best protect ourselves,

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Speaker 1: where we are in the race to find a vaccine,

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Speaker 1: what you should know about sending your kids to school,

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Speaker 1: and whether the world has entered a pandemic era. But

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Speaker 1: first he explained why our behavior through Labor Day weekend

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Speaker 1: could have a real impact on how the coronavirus spreads

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Speaker 1: throughout the next few months. We're approaching Labor Day, and

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Speaker 1: I know you've urged people to continue to exercise caution

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Speaker 1: and not to have sort of pandemic fatigue. We saw

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Speaker 1: surge after Memorial Day and the Fourth of July holiday weekends.

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Speaker 1: But you've also said, Dr Vauchi, the way we handle

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Speaker 1: Labor Day will determine what the virus does over the

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Speaker 1: fall months. What exactly did you mean by that? When

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Speaker 1: you go into the fall, as the weather starts to

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Speaker 1: chill and more people will be spending indoors, then that

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Speaker 1: is a perfect setup for a resurgence of cases. The

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Speaker 1: point that I was making, Katie is that right now

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Speaker 1: we are at a baseline that in my mind is

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Speaker 1: unacceptably high, where at about forty cases per day. If

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Speaker 1: you look at some of the European countries and even

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Speaker 1: some states and cities in the United States, when you

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Speaker 1: peaked up and you come down to a very low baseline,

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Speaker 1: when you get individual cases, you can much better control

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Speaker 1: them then when you have twenty cases. So the point

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Speaker 1: I was making about Labor Day is that if we

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Speaker 1: can prevent the surge of Labor Day and keep the

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Speaker 1: cases coming down and down, which if you look at

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Speaker 1: the map of the country, for the most part, we've

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Speaker 1: got hit badly, and then we turned it around. We

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Speaker 1: got hit badly, and then the most recent one as

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Speaker 1: you well know, we're in the southern states of Florida, Texas, California,

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Speaker 1: and Arizona. We've now turned that around. What we do

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Speaker 1: not need is another surge. So if we can get

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Speaker 1: through the Labor Day weekend and not be up, but

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Speaker 1: actually continue to go down, that would be momentum as

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Speaker 1: we get into the full of going in the right direction.

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Speaker 1: So that's really what I meant by that statement. And

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Speaker 1: so you were worried that if people get complacent that

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Speaker 1: the numbers will go up. Is that what happened in Europe,

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Speaker 1: Dr Fauci, because they're reporting the highest numbers or the

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Speaker 1: highest number of cases they've seen since March. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's true. And what happened is that they actually, interestingly,

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Speaker 1: did a really good job of locking down much more

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Speaker 1: thoroughly actually than we did, which may be the reason

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Speaker 1: why when they went down to a baseline, they were

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Speaker 1: way lower than we were. What we have to worry

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Speaker 1: about and guard against is what's happening right now in

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Speaker 1: some countries in Europe, and that is, you know, shut

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Speaker 1: down fatigue. They just felt they were shut down so

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Speaker 1: long that instead of prudently and carefully trying to open

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Speaker 1: up their economy, they did what many of us in

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Speaker 1: the United States did when you looked at the pictures

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Speaker 1: of people crowding around bars, they went to the other extreme. So,

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Speaker 1: getting back to what you just asked me a little

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Speaker 1: while ago about the Labor Day weekend, we don't want

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Speaker 1: people to lock themselves in a closet for Labor Day

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Speaker 1: weekend at all. You want to get outside. You can

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Speaker 1: have fun as long as you do some fundamental public

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Speaker 1: health principles. Wearing a mask, physical distance, avoid crowd, and

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Speaker 1: for goodness sakes, anything that you could possibly do outside

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Speaker 1: as opposed to inside keep it outside. If you do that,

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Speaker 1: we know from experience that you won't see surges, you

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Speaker 1: will be able to contain any outbreak. The CDC has

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Speaker 1: asked states to prepare for a coronavirus vaccine to be

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Speaker 1: ready to distribute by November, and I'm wondering, Dr Faucer,

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Speaker 1: are you concerned about fast tracking a vaccine before clinical

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Speaker 1: trials are completed. I wouldn't say I'm concerned. I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm fairly certain that that's not going to happen,

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Speaker 1: because we know I mean, and I've made this statement,

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Speaker 1: Katie multiple times over the months, that it is likely

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Speaker 1: that we will know if we have a safe and

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Speaker 1: effective vaccine by the end of this coundar year November

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Speaker 1: or December, so that we could have vaccine doses by

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Speaker 1: the end, and as we go into one, it is

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Speaker 1: conceivable that we may do it earlier. I mean, there's

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Speaker 1: no you can't rule that out, because if you have

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Speaker 1: a lot of infections within an area where they're actually

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Speaker 1: testing the vaccine, you could get an answer earlier than

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Speaker 1: November and December. So I'm not ruling out the possibility

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Speaker 1: that we might know at the end of October. But

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Speaker 1: there's no guarantee. In fact, if I would predict, I

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Speaker 1: would say that that is unlikely. It's not impossible, but unlikely.

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Speaker 1: So the CDC saying they're preparing for that eventuality, I

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Speaker 1: don't think that should be interpreted that anything is going

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Speaker 1: to be rushed. I think it should be interpreted that

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Speaker 1: just in case we're lucky enough to get an early answer,

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Speaker 1: we want to be ready for it. That's really what

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Speaker 1: they meant, even if it indicates so Dr Fauci, it

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Speaker 1: might be effective. I mean, there's a reason there's a

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Speaker 1: phase one, two, and three clinical trial right our process,

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Speaker 1: and and shouldn't all those phases be completed? I mean,

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Speaker 1: do you think it's okay to put a drug on

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Speaker 1: the marketplace of phase three clinical trials have not been

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Speaker 1: not taken place? Well, you know, there is a little

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Speaker 1: bit of a nuance and a subtlety there that I

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Speaker 1: think people need to understand. First of all, I completely

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Speaker 1: agree with you, and I'll confirm what I've said before.

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Speaker 1: I will not be satisfied until our vaccine that we

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Speaker 1: allow to be distributed among the American public has to

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Speaker 1: be both safe and effective. Both safe and effective, but

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Speaker 1: A potential scenario would be is that as you're testing

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Speaker 1: the vaccine, we have a data and safety Monitoring board,

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Speaker 1: which is an independent board of people who incommittently look

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Speaker 1: at the data to see if it is too bad

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Speaker 1: or too good. Namely, you might want to interrupt the

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Speaker 1: trial before you finished the actual um observation over the

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Speaker 1: predetermined time. So what could happen is that you look

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Speaker 1: at the data and the independent group may say, you know,

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Speaker 1: we have enough data to know that this is actually

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Speaker 1: an effective vaccine and it looks pretty safe, so let's

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Speaker 1: get it to the American people by mechanism called by

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Speaker 1: an emergency use authorization. That doesn't mean you stop the trial.

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Speaker 1: It means that you could make the vaccine available to

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Speaker 1: certain people who could benefit from it the most, like

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Speaker 1: first line responders or healthcare workers or people at the

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Speaker 1: same time as you're gathering additional safety information. So you

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Speaker 1: don't have to call the trial off. But that would

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Speaker 1: be a very special situation. I'd want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that when that decision is made, it's made really on

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Speaker 1: the basis of efficacy. A lot of people say they

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Speaker 1: would not take the vaccine um that that they just

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Speaker 1: don't feel comfortable, and I'm curious would you take it?

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Speaker 1: And what about the people who say they're not interested

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Speaker 1: in taking it? And are you worried this is going

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Speaker 1: to fuel the anti vax movement? Dr Kalki. Okay, so

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Speaker 1: let's start off with your first question, Katie, if if

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Speaker 1: if the vaccine, which in my mind, it would have

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Speaker 1: to be the following if we if we allow it

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Speaker 1: to be given to the American public, it would have

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Speaker 1: to be proven and scientifically sound study to be both

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Speaker 1: safe and effective. If that occurs, and I'm cautiously optimistic

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Speaker 1: that it will, I would readily take the vacccine, and

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Speaker 1: I would recommend that my family takes the vaccine. The

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Speaker 1: second question that you have is am I concerned about

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Speaker 1: people not wanting to take the vaccine? I am, because

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Speaker 1: you know there is an underlying current in this country

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Speaker 1: that goes back to measles and other vaccines that people

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Speaker 1: are skeptical about taking a vaccine. And I think the

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Speaker 1: best way to get around that is to do good

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Speaker 1: community outreach, be very transparent about the data, Let all

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Speaker 1: the decision making process be open and easily discussed, so

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Speaker 1: people can see that when we say it's safe and effective.

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Speaker 1: It really is safe and effective. And what are you

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Speaker 1: hearing about it? Dr Fauci. Obviously you're talking to some

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Speaker 1: of these companies. Are you hearing that it's it's very promising?

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Speaker 1: Are you hearing that it's going to work on everyone?

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Speaker 1: Will there have to be a booster shot? Can you

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Speaker 1: give us some insight into those questions? Yeah? No, Well

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Speaker 1: I'm very heavily involved in that, Katie, because I mean,

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Speaker 1: at least a couple of the vaccines, we were very

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Speaker 1: much involved in developing and implementing the clinical trial. So

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Speaker 1: if you, for example, the trials that are in phase

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Speaker 1: three now, particularly the MODERNA trial and the trial from

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Speaker 1: Fiser and to some extent the trial from from a

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Speaker 1: Z that when you look at the phase one trial, now,

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Speaker 1: phase one is a relatively small number of people. That's

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Speaker 1: the reason why, as you said, correctly, you want to

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Speaker 1: go to phase two and phase three. But in the

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Speaker 1: phase one trial, I looked at the data very carefully,

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Speaker 1: and it's published now in the medical literature that the

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Speaker 1: induction of a response in the volunteers was really quite promising.

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Speaker 1: It was a robust response, that it was at least

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Speaker 1: as good or even better than the kind of response

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Speaker 1: you get from natural infection, and one of the tenants

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Speaker 1: of vaccine development is that you'd like to do as

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Speaker 1: well as natural infection does in inducing a protective response. Still,

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Speaker 1: at least with that limited amount of data, I would

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Speaker 1: say that I'm cautiously optimistic that we're on a good

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Speaker 1: path to getting to where we want to be. We'll

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Speaker 1: have more with Dr Anthony Fauci right after this. You know,

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Speaker 1: it seems that people of color are not being uh shown,

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Speaker 1: are not being represented in the current US vaccine trials

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Speaker 1: Black and Latino people, despite the fact that those communities,

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Speaker 1: as you well know, Dr Fauci, have been hardest hit

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Speaker 1: by this virus. Is there any way to remedy that

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Speaker 1: late in the process. It's not too late. The trials

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Speaker 1: are more than half enrolled. We know that they're close

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Speaker 1: to twenty thousand out of the thirty thousand individuals in

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Speaker 1: the trials. You know, for goodness sakes and the Lord

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Speaker 1: knows that we're trying, we really do want to get

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Speaker 1: African Americans and Latin X and other minorities in the trial.

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Speaker 1: We're doing better with Latino X than we all with

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Speaker 1: African Americans. I still want to get the percentage in

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Speaker 1: the trial of African Americans higher than it is right now.

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Speaker 1: You know, there's understandable skepticism on the part of that

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Speaker 1: demographic group when it comes to vaccines. They have not

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Speaker 1: historically been treated well by government research endeavors. We know

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Speaker 1: that that's a sad part of our history. We have

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Speaker 1: to get over that, and that's the reason why we're

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Speaker 1: employing every manner of community outreach to get the African

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Speaker 1: American population to appreciate that they need to get vaccinated

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Speaker 1: for precisely the reasons you just mentioned. A. They have

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Speaker 1: a greater chance of getting infected by the basis of

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Speaker 1: the jobs that they find themselves in. It's much less

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Speaker 1: likely they're going to be sitting in front of a computer.

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Speaker 1: They likely will be in first line jobs where they're

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Speaker 1: in physical contact with people. So they have a risk

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Speaker 1: that's greater than the general population of getting infected. And importantly,

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Speaker 1: when they do get infected, they have the underlying conditions

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Speaker 1: to a greater extent than the rest of the population,

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Speaker 1: which makes it more likely that they will have a

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Speaker 1: severe outcome of infection, and that's hypertension, obesity, diabetes, chronic

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Speaker 1: renal disease, chronic lung disease. It's very unfortunate. Those are

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Speaker 1: social determinants of health that are decades in the making.

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Speaker 1: We can't do anything about that. But what we can

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Speaker 1: do apropos of what you just asked, is we can

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Speaker 1: get them vaccinated to prevent that from happening to them.

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Speaker 1: Stand Up to Cancer, which I founded twelve years ago,

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Speaker 1: has a whole new health equity initiative where we're trying

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Speaker 1: to get more people of color involved in clinical cancer

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Speaker 1: clinical trials. And I think it's the medical community really

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Speaker 1: is has just woken up, I think, to this disparity

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Speaker 1: and how critically it important it is to have representation

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Speaker 1: in these clinical trials. So if we can just make

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Speaker 1: sure that people, let you know, people of color, know

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Speaker 1: that these trials are happening and encourage them to participate,

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Speaker 1: that would be a really positive thing for for everyone.

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Speaker 1: Are you concerned that the US has decided not to

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Speaker 1: not to cooperate with the WHO to equitably distribute this vaccine? Uh?

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Speaker 1: You know, I mean, obviously I have been a proponent

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Speaker 1: for decades of equitable distribution of vaccine. I think that

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Speaker 1: is going to happen, and in fact, we will almost certainly, Katie,

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Speaker 1: participate in that distribution to other countries, even though it

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Speaker 1: isn't part of the official WHO effort, because if you

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Speaker 1: look at the dosage is that we have pre purchased,

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Speaker 1: it goes well beyond the number required for the United States.

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Speaker 1: So the end of the day, what's going to functionally

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Speaker 1: happen anyway, is that we're going to be participating in

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Speaker 1: that type of distribution. You know, this has been such

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Speaker 1: a stressful time, Dr Fauci. I know you've you've addressed

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Speaker 1: this in other interviews for parents and for students, whether

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Speaker 1: they're in kindergarten or headed off to college. And I

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Speaker 1: know that your alma mater, Holy Cross, decided to go

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Speaker 1: entirely online after previously creating an in person back to

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Speaker 1: school plan, And I'm just curious, did you help advise

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Speaker 1: the university and is that an indicator in your mind

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Speaker 1: that other colleges and university should follow their lead. You

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Speaker 1: know it's going to be but that's a great question,

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Speaker 1: and it's really going to be different, and from university

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Speaker 1: to university, depending upon the capability of a particularly institution

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Speaker 1: to be able to handle students who ultimately get infected. So,

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Speaker 1: for example, several of the universities, some of which I've

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Speaker 1: actually had the opportunity to be an informal adviser, to

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Speaker 1: have a system where they essentially test everybody before they

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Speaker 1: come in. Then they do intermittent surveillance testing. The critical

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Speaker 1: issue that we're emphasizing now that some universities have done it,

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Speaker 1: not optimally and not I don't mean to blame them,

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Speaker 1: but now we know what to do is that when

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Speaker 1: the students at the university level get infected, you don't

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Speaker 1: want to send them home, because when you send them home,

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Speaker 1: they essentially go into a house, infect their family, go

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Speaker 1: and infect their community. Because university students, as we all know,

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Speaker 1: come from all different parts of the country. So if

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Speaker 1: you bring them in they get infected, then you send

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Speaker 1: them home, you're essentially spreading it. So what many of

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Speaker 1: the universities they're doing now are providing for places either

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Speaker 1: a dorm, an entire dorm, or a couple of fours

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Speaker 1: for a dorm, so that when a student gets infected,

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Speaker 1: you could safely and comfortably sequester them from the rest

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Speaker 1: of the student body without necessarily sending them home. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I just had a conversation a little while ago as

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Speaker 1: did Dr Burghs with Tommy Thompson, who's the president of

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Speaker 1: the University of Wisconsin and exactly my former boss for

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Speaker 1: several years. And what Tommy has done is a really

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Speaker 1: very interesting way of testing the students, having surveillance and

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Speaker 1: if you get infected, putting them in a sequested way

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Speaker 1: where you don't have to send them home. Many of

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Speaker 1: the colleges are doing that. That's interesting. So the latter

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Speaker 1: thing is actually as important as the testing protocol itself,

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Speaker 1: to make sure you have a place to put infected

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Speaker 1: students where they're not going to affect other students or

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Speaker 1: return to their homes. That's exactly correct, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's a really important point. You know, when it comes

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Speaker 1: to K through twelve, Dr Fauci, it seems like there

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Speaker 1: aren't clear procedures across the board for for returning to

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Speaker 1: in person learning. And I just feel like through this

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Speaker 1: whole pandemic there's been it's been so inconsistent, and I

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Speaker 1: realized certain situations call for different measures, but without kind

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Speaker 1: of these broad guidelines, it seems like that could be

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Speaker 1: a recipe for disaster. No, uh, indeed, So let's try

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Speaker 1: and see if you and I can be some consistent

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Speaker 1: here and see if we could help out. So I

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Speaker 1: think one of the reasons for this perception of inconsistency,

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Speaker 1: if not reality of inconsistency, is that we live in

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Speaker 1: a really big country and it's very heater a genious

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Speaker 1: with regard to the level of infection activity. If you

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Speaker 1: look at the map, we have these heat maps Katie,

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Speaker 1: which you know, light up of its red, it's green,

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Speaker 1: it's yellow. So if you're in a part of the

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Speaker 1: country where you're what we call a green zone, which

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Speaker 1: means the level of infection is really quite low, you

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Speaker 1: can proceed with relative impunity and in person teaching in

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Speaker 1: the elementary and middle schools with the children. You have

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Speaker 1: to have a plan of what you're going to do

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Speaker 1: when children get infected, because no matter where you are,

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Speaker 1: they are going to get infected. So you don't want

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Speaker 1: to open up and then have to close right down.

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Speaker 1: You want to have a plan. When you get into

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Speaker 1: the yellow zone, it becomes a little bit more problematic,

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Speaker 1: which means that you may have to do some mitigation.

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Speaker 1: You might have to alternate morning afternoon every other day,

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Speaker 1: part online, part in person. When you get to a

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Speaker 1: red zone, then that becomes really problematic for a number

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Speaker 1: of reasons. The level of infection may be so high

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Speaker 1: in the community that it would really be imprudent to

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Speaker 1: just say, Okay, everybody go back to school. And what

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Speaker 1: we're seeing, Katie is something really interesting is that the

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Speaker 1: parents and the teachers are really talking with their feet.

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Speaker 1: They're not showing up. They're saying, you know, I don't

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Speaker 1: really want to go in to a school in a

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Speaker 1: red zone. When I'm a teacher that might have an

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Speaker 1: underlying condition, I'll do it by virtual, but I don't

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Speaker 1: really want to come in. And that's what's actually happening.

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Speaker 1: You can understand that though, right Dr Fauci, I totally

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Speaker 1: empathize with them doing that. I mean, there's no doubt

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Speaker 1: about that. You really got to respect teachers who are

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Speaker 1: either in a certain age group or who have an

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Speaker 1: underlying condition that would put them at risk if you

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Speaker 1: want them to go to to teach in person in

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Speaker 1: a place where you have a very high level of

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Speaker 1: infection in that particular community, that is understandable. We'll have

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Speaker 1: more with Dr Anthony Fauci right after this. So when

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Speaker 1: it comes to testing, and I'm just curious, Dr Fauci.

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Speaker 1: A lot of my followers and I wondered this as well.

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Speaker 1: If if a lot of people are asymptomatic, what about

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Speaker 1: does it make sense to take people's temperatures because they

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Speaker 1: could be without a temperature right if there without a fever,

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Speaker 1: if there is symptomatic. Well, this may have some people

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Speaker 1: disagree with me, but I do not put much uh

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Speaker 1: stock in temperature taking. I would much rather when someone

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Speaker 1: walks into a place, asked them a few key questions.

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Speaker 1: In fact, right here at the NIH where I'm sitting

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Speaker 1: right now, and out right across like a hundred feet

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Speaker 1: from where we are right now is the NIH Clinical

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Speaker 1: Center hospital where I work, we got rid of temperature

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Speaker 1: taking going in right now. We just asked questions to

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Speaker 1: screen people for the simple reason of what you exactly

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Speaker 1: said about asymptomatic, but also the inaccuracy sometimes of temperature.

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Speaker 1: Where you put something next to somebody's head, particularly if

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Speaker 1: they come out from outside when it's nine three degrees outside,

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Speaker 1: you can get some of those positives. The government, as

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Speaker 1: you know, is sending out and estimated a hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty million Abbot laboratory rapid COVID nineteen tests. But FDA

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Speaker 1: experts say in some cases the results may need to

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Speaker 1: be confirmed with the second test, like a nasal swab.

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Speaker 1: So um, can you just give us some insight about

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Speaker 1: the effectiveness of these fast COVID tests. They're good, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they are good, Katie, I mean, and in fact, it

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Speaker 1: is a nasal swab, the new Abbott bin ax that

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Speaker 1: you're referring to, the hundred and fifty million you're taking

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Speaker 1: nasal swab. You stick it in a little well, you

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Speaker 1: put the card down and it reads out with the band.

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Speaker 1: It's not only quite specific like nine seven point two,

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Speaker 1: it's sensitive. That's pretty good. That's good. Why did the

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Speaker 1: FDA say that? Then? Dr falc know, you know, I

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Speaker 1: can't address that, kid, because I'm not certain what they

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Speaker 1: said and why they said it, So I better not comment.

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Speaker 1: I'll get myself in trouble. You don't want to do that.

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Speaker 1: How worried are you, by the way, about flu season

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Speaker 1: and about handling both a flu epidemic and continuing to

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Speaker 1: deal with COVID nineteen. Well, what I'm hoping for is

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Speaker 1: two things. One extension of what you and I spoke

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Speaker 1: about a few minutes ago about as we get into

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Speaker 1: the full do it on a down slope of COVID

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Speaker 1: as opposed to an upstill. But the other thing that

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Speaker 1: I'm hoping for is that the very public health measures

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Speaker 1: that have been targeted to COVID nineteen, I'm gonna mitigate

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Speaker 1: the impact of a flu season, namely masks, distancing, avoiding crowds,

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Speaker 1: staying outside to the extent possible, particularly as we get

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Speaker 1: into the winter, and washing hands. An interesting fact, Katie,

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Speaker 1: is that Australia, which is as you know, in the

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Speaker 1: Southern Hemisphere and has their flu season during our summer,

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Speaker 1: have had a very very light flu season and the

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Speaker 1: Australian health authorities, many of whom are my friends and colleagues.

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Speaker 1: I feel that the reason for that is that they

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Speaker 1: were practicing public health measures to avoid the coronavirus and

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Speaker 1: they had the secondary effect you bet, you know, just

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Speaker 1: an unintended positive consequence. But haven't said that. I just

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Speaker 1: want to make sure we're not discouraging people from getting

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Speaker 1: flu shots. Dr Fauci, absolutely not. As soon as the

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Speaker 1: flu vaccines become available right here on campus, I will

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Speaker 1: be first in line to get one, and I encourage

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Speaker 1: everyone six months of age or over to get a

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Speaker 1: flu vaccine. I'm gonna get mine what as soon as

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Speaker 1: I can, to believe in next week. What do you

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Speaker 1: think when you look back at this whole unique chapter

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Speaker 1: in our history, Dr Fauci, what do you think, uh,

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Speaker 1: the government could have done better? What were the lessons learned?

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Speaker 1: And what might have done been done faster and better

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Speaker 1: to really keep the number of cases and saddling mortalities down. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, having been in the position I'm in now

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Speaker 1: for the last thirty six years as the head of

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Speaker 1: this institute, I had the opportunity to be involved in

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Speaker 1: a number of outbreaks, from HIV in the eighties, you know,

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Speaker 1: to pandemic flu in two thousand nine, to Zeka to Ebola.

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Speaker 1: You could always say you could have done something better.

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Speaker 1: So I mean the blanket answer to your question, and

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Speaker 1: I don't even I don't mean to be facetious at all.

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Speaker 1: Hetty is is we could have done everything better, you know,

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Speaker 1: a little bit better. You could always do better. I

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Speaker 1: mean we have shut down earlier, well retrospectively, of course,

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Speaker 1: But if you turn the clock back and say when

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Speaker 1: we had one infection in the United States at the

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Speaker 1: time that underneath the radar screen it was spreading when

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Speaker 1: we had one infection, if we had called to shut

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Speaker 1: the country down, what kind of response do you think

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Speaker 1: we could have had? Oftenmalia would have been great. If

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Speaker 1: we shut it down, then we likely would have avoided

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Speaker 1: a lot of infections. But it wasn't really feasible to

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Speaker 1: do it. So in some respects we could have done

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Speaker 1: better by doing that, but in some respects it likely

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00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 1: would not have been feasible. So I mean, as as

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00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 1: a health official being involved in this, you know, I'm

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00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: humble enough to say we could have done a lot

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00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: of things better, but it's just the way it is.

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00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: We need to look ahead and maybe not closing down

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00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 1: the country, Dr Fauci. And and you know early on

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00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: when there was one case, but certainly you know in March,

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00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: when the case cases were climbing traumatically and the month

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00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,919
Speaker 1: of February, perhaps more could have been done as you

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00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,840
Speaker 1: watched it, Yeah, I mean that must have been really,

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00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: really worrisome for you as a public health expert. Of

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00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: course it was. I was pained. I was paining. I mean, also,

444
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:17,200
Speaker 1: we could have done much better with testing, Katie. I

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00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: mean testing situation early on was not optimal. What happened there.

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00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 1: Did the CDC just come out with a lousy test initially? Well,

447
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:28,679
Speaker 1: it was just one of those unfortunate glitches that was

448
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: technical that led to the having to recall a number

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00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,400
Speaker 1: of cases and losing the heads thought that we would

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00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 1: have liked to have gotten. Well, I know that you've

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00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: said that humanity has quote entered a pandemic era with

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00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: the coronavirus outbreat likely just the first of accelerating epidemics

453
00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:50,880
Speaker 1: to come. Just so we can end on a positive note,

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00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 1: Dr Fauci, can you explain what is driving this new

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00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,400
Speaker 1: era and what we might expect in the coming years. Well,

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00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:02,919
Speaker 1: I'm pleased to see that you read my paper that

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00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:07,719
Speaker 1: I wrote in cell Stollowly Cave. Very good. I do,

458
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,120
Speaker 1: I knew do know a bit about medicine at this point. Dr,

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00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: I'm very very pleased to see that that's a that's

460
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 1: a scholarly paper. What what I What we said my

461
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: colleague David Morris and I Mourns and I in that

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00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: it really is a reflection of how we as the

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00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: human species interact with our environment. Because if you look

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00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: at the outbreaks of new infections, particularly new viruses, seventy

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00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: of them are zoonotic or infections that have jumped species

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00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 1: from an animal reservoir into humans, and the kinds of

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00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: things that perturb the animal human interface a major drivers

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00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 1: of outbreaks. You know, it was HIV from a chimpanzee

469
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: bush meat slaughtering them, getting it into the American population.

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00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 1: It was influenza where you have chickens and pigs and

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00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:08,640
Speaker 1: people in the agricultural situation that you usually see in

472
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 1: the in the Far East, particularly now even with COVID,

473
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: not only COVID now that we're seeing, but the original

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00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: Stars in two thousand and two where the wet markets

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00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: where people bring in animals from the wild, put them

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00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:28,959
Speaker 1: in a market and people come in shop, usually for

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00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: festive meals during festivals. Things like civic cats and bats

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00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: and other animals that have these viruses. You're almost asking

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00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,400
Speaker 1: for trouble when you do that. So what we said

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00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,600
Speaker 1: in the paper, we really need to rethink how we

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00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: interact with the environment and how we interact with the

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00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 1: animal species if we really want to avoid outbreaks in

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00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: the future. And and it seems that when it comes

484
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: to mitigating these pandemics, the Internet is not the friend

485
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: of of the public health official. There's been so much

486
00:30:07,440 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 1: misinformation coupled with polarization, it makes it very very difficult,

487
00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: Dr Fauci to get information to the public, not only that,

488
00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: but get them to believe that information. Yeah, it is true.

489
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: It's become particularly difficult and problematic when you're trying to

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00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:30,840
Speaker 1: get a public health message across and you live right

491
00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 1: now in a time in our great country in which

492
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 1: is very very divisive, and when you politicize and make

493
00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: divisive things that should be pure public health, it really

494
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: makes it that much more difficult. Did you ever think

495
00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,440
Speaker 1: about having your own daily briefings that would be completely

496
00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: devoid of politics, Dr Fauci, Yeah, that would be nice,

497
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 1: wouldn't it. Would you not be allowed to do that?

498
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: I don't have total control over those things. I don't.

499
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:01,320
Speaker 1: I guess if you need to keep your job, you

500
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: wouldn't be able to do that. Yeah. Well, I don't

501
00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: think anybody is trying to get rid of me. But

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00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: but what we're trying to do right now, which is

503
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: the reason why I enthusiastically said yes to your request

504
00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 1: to talk to you, because they think things like our

505
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 1: discussion that we just have now go a long way

506
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: to really clarifying the real true public health message. Well,

507
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: I really really appreciate your time, Dr Fauci, and again

508
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,680
Speaker 1: on behalf of all my followers, thank you very very

509
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 1: much for your service, and thank you for all you do.

510
00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: To Katie, it's a pleasure and a privilege to be

511
00:31:31,320 --> 00:31:37,080
Speaker 1: with you. Thank you for having me, Thanks for listening

512
00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 1: to the special edition of the Next Question, and I'm

513
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 1: very excited in the upcoming weeks we'll be doing a

514
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 1: special podcast series called Turnout focused on voting, why it's

515
00:31:49,080 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: important to get out the vote, who isn't voting, and

516
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 1: the systemic structures that have been in place that have

517
00:31:55,920 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: suppressed so many American citizens. So stay tuned for that.

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00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: In the meantime, thanks so much for listening. I'm Katie

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00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 1: Curik and I'll talk to you next time. Next Question

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00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 1: with Katie Couric is a production of I Heart Radio

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00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 1: and Katie Kurik Media. The executive producers are Katie Curic,

522
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,560
Speaker 1: Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.

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00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 1: Our show producer is Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are

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00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: Emily Pinto and Derek Clements. Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan

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00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: Fagan and Lowell Berlante, mixing by Dylan Fagan. Our researcher

526
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,960
Speaker 1: is Gabriel Loser. For more information on today's episode, go

527
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,720
Speaker 1: to Katie curik dot com and follow us on Twitter

528
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: and Instagram at Katie Kurik. For more podcasts for my

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00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:56,480
Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast,

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00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,