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Speaker 1: of us here on the show, thank you week in
Speaker 1: and week out for choosing to listen to Trust Me.
Speaker 2: If you have your own story of being in a
Speaker 2: cult or a high control group.
Speaker 3: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power
Speaker 3: that you'd like to share.
Speaker 2: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three
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Speaker 4: Trust Me, Trust for trust Me.
Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I've never lied to you.
Speaker 3: If you think that one person has all the answers,
Speaker 3: Don't Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme
Speaker 3: belief and manipulation from two Wilderness girls who've actually experienced it.
Speaker 3: I'm Lo La Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today
Speaker 3: is part two of our interview with friend of the show,
Speaker 3: Yonie Shreira. He's a former student at the Family Foundation's School,
Speaker 3: also known as alan Wood, and as a reminder, this
Speaker 3: was a remote, troubled teen program known for a series
Speaker 3: of lawsuits brought against it, as well as over a
Speaker 3: hundred deaths from overdose or suicide by its former attendees.
Speaker 3: Last week we talked about how and why Yoni ended
Speaker 3: up in this abusive school and the culture there of
Speaker 3: required snitching. And this week he's going to tell us
Speaker 3: about the punishments the kids endured, including hard labor and isolation.
Speaker 2: He'll tell us about trying to run away, the origins
Speaker 2: of the group and the man who created it, how
Speaker 2: the kids were kept isolated from their families, the way
Speaker 2: it impacted him after he left, and why he thinks
Speaker 2: so many of its former students have died.
Speaker 3: It's super sad, and we talk about this in the interviews,
Speaker 3: so I won't get too into it. But you know,
Speaker 3: it's already such a vulnerable population teenagers in the first place,
Speaker 3: and then people who are struggling with addiction, and then
Speaker 3: when you put those things together and then you add abuse,
Speaker 3: it's just it's a perfect really really awesome, really really
Speaker 3: awful recipe.
Speaker 4: I thought you're just say awesome.
Speaker 5: I know my tongue slived, my tongueless like us.
Speaker 4: Correct, you need to quit.
Speaker 5: Awful.
Speaker 4: It's awful. It's a perfect storm.
Speaker 3: Yes, No, it's freaking horrible and really really sad, and
Speaker 3: you will hear more about it shortly and before we
Speaker 3: get back into it with Yoni.
Speaker 5: Megan, do you have a coldiest thing this week? I do.
Speaker 2: Mine is related to the group that I grew up in,
Speaker 2: the two by twos. It's been a pretty heavily media
Speaker 2: covered case I just saw shared on ABC. One of
Speaker 2: the like on and off elders in the church has
Speaker 2: been sentenced to one hundred and twenty years in jail
Speaker 2: for distributing images of children. And he has some money.
Speaker 2: He hired a really good defense lawyer. You know, there
Speaker 2: was some seats of doubt planted, but ultimately he was
Speaker 2: found guilty, which is pretty hard to do.
Speaker 6: You know, I haven't.
Speaker 2: This case isn't something that I've been following, per se
Speaker 2: or know every detail about, but it did just bring
Speaker 2: to light a bigger issue to me, which is like
Speaker 2: this kind of built in defense that a lot of
Speaker 2: these high control groups have built in, which is that
Speaker 2: they say, we're going to be persecuted, right, so already
Speaker 2: there's this defense of like unconsciously in people's mind like
Speaker 2: oh here it's happening. The persecution is beginning, Like here's
Speaker 2: this wonrateful. It's Mams, he's innocent.
Speaker 6: And it's just been really odd to watch.
Speaker 5: Are people like doubling down?
Speaker 2: Kind of yeah, people double down, people are getting you know,
Speaker 2: the people who are left in their beliefs who I
Speaker 2: thought were maybe getting a little bit more free kind
Speaker 2: of seem like that's gone away. And like, growing up,
Speaker 2: I was always taught you're in this one true way
Speaker 2: people are gonna persecute you, and like to no one.
Speaker 5: Gave a shit.
Speaker 2: No one was like like people sometimes were like why
Speaker 2: are you guys dressed like that?
Speaker 4: But no one was like stop it. Stop having these meetings.
Speaker 2: Of truth, Like no one cares about a home based
Speaker 2: Bible group. And my personal opinion, people are like go
Speaker 2: off queens, like do.
Speaker 5: What you want.
Speaker 2: But as like these systems of abuse start to be revealed,
Speaker 2: people are obviously going to start persecuting you because it's
Speaker 2: a felony and you should go to jail.
Speaker 3: So it's just prosecuting you one night, prosecuting you, one
Speaker 3: might say.
Speaker 2: So the cognitive dissonance for people is really high. I
Speaker 2: totally get it. It is for me as well. It's
Speaker 2: just all bizarre. This group that has been so secret
Speaker 2: for so long. Just seeing it in headlines is so bizarre, jarring.
Speaker 2: It's very uncanny. I don't know how to explain it.
Speaker 2: So that's my thought of the week. And just you know,
Speaker 2: I can kind of see playing out in news stages too,
Speaker 2: and it's.
Speaker 4: A whole thing.
Speaker 2: But anyway, that's all I'm going to say today.
Speaker 6: Lola, that's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week.
Speaker 3: Kind of similar, well different, different, but similar in that, Uh, are.
Speaker 6: You going to jail for one hundred and twenty years?
Speaker 7: No?
Speaker 5: But someone is no, he's going to jail for fifty years.
Speaker 3: So the person who's going to jail for anyone who
Speaker 3: has been following is Sam Bateman and Sam Bateman is
Speaker 3: in jail now because of my mother who went undercover
Speaker 3: Shadows see doctor Christine. She went on undercover to gather
Speaker 3: evidence to put him behind bars because he was not
Speaker 3: only doing the traditional, you know, fundamentalist abusive thing of
Speaker 3: taking child brides, but he was doing even more horrendous
Speaker 3: things like in between you know, uh, I don't.
Speaker 5: I don't even like getting into the details. I think
Speaker 5: it's too like it'slacious, so horrible. The point is he sucks.
Speaker 3: He's a horrible person, and he he sucks.
Speaker 4: Is a little bit of an understatement.
Speaker 8: Well yeah, I mean yes, but he really really sucks.
Speaker 8: And I'm actually shocked that he gets fifty I don't
Speaker 8: know the specifics of the charges, but it's shocking that
Speaker 8: he gets fifty years for like these actual, like horrific
Speaker 8: acts that he committed against many people and families, whereas
Speaker 8: the two by two guy gets triple that for you know,
Speaker 8: like that's so interesting, Actually it is interesting. But anyway,
Speaker 8: my mom was at the trial, just everybody's over the
Speaker 8: moon that this guy's finally like officially behind bars until
Speaker 8: he dies unless he lives to age one hundred and Yeah,
Speaker 8: it's just an amazing ending to this like pretty scary story.
Speaker 3: We'll talk more about it, but if anyone wants to
Speaker 3: read about it, there is a like Tribune article that
Speaker 3: gets into all of the details of how and why
Speaker 3: they first started recording him, how it took a long
Speaker 3: time to get authorities involved, et cetera. And the headline
Speaker 3: is a Utah couple that's my mom and my stepdad
Speaker 3: infiltrated a new polygamous sect and helped put its abusive
Speaker 3: leader behind bars.
Speaker 5: So you can go.
Speaker 3: Read all about that. My mom rules, and she is
Speaker 3: the ultimate testament to you know, this idea that we
Speaker 3: talk about all the time, which is that befriending people
Speaker 3: can be significantly more effective in getting them out of
Speaker 3: groups than attacking them.
Speaker 5: We'll talk about it.
Speaker 2: I'm just such a beautiful example of somebody surviving being
Speaker 2: in a horrific cult.
Speaker 6: She's an angel.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and she used that experience to help other people
Speaker 3: by sharing her story with them.
Speaker 2: It's called yeah yeah, and she's going to be a
Speaker 2: guest I think soon, right to talk about all this?
Speaker 6: Yes, okay, beautiful, Well should we talk to Yannie.
Speaker 5: Let's do it.
Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about some of
Speaker 3: the punishments that people experienced.
Speaker 7: Yeah, So, like I said, there was like the work
Speaker 7: sanction thing if they felt like you were a danger
Speaker 7: to yourself or others, which like definitely is quite subjective.
Speaker 7: You know, like they would put you in this room
Speaker 7: called like ISO, where like it was like this like
Speaker 7: six by six, Like I mean, it was like a cell.
Speaker 7: It was like you know, like a steel door with
Speaker 7: like three bolt locks on it, and there's like a
Speaker 7: camera in the corner and there's like nothing in there,
Speaker 7: and they'd take like your belt and shoelaces and stuff.
Speaker 6: Did you ever go on there?
Speaker 7: I only went in there once. I kind of did
Speaker 7: a pretty good job of like I mean, I definitely
Speaker 7: got into trouble there. Like I said, I was like
Speaker 7: on those work sanctions and stuff, but you it actually
Speaker 7: was usually more in line with like, hey, you're not
Speaker 7: quote unquote buying into our program because you know, you're
Speaker 7: not like helling on people or something. But it wasn't
Speaker 7: like I had very few instances where I was like
Speaker 7: punching windows or like you know, doing like outward you know,
Speaker 7: like violent shit or anything.
Speaker 3: I have to imagine for many of the kids who
Speaker 3: came there that had sort of already been their pattern,
Speaker 3: like acting out, yeah, in more outward ways, and I'm
Speaker 3: guessing those kids experienced a lot more of.
Speaker 4: That for sure. Yeah, there were, Yeah, there were a
Speaker 4: lot of kids.
Speaker 7: And also, like I would say, I was there in
Speaker 7: an era where it was still they were still doing
Speaker 7: like pretty fucked up shit, but it was also at
Speaker 7: an era where it was like transitioning into trying to
Speaker 7: kind of like they were trying to get some certain.
Speaker 4: Like specific like state accreditation.
Speaker 7: And so I remember there were like a few times
Speaker 7: while I was there where there'd be like people from
Speaker 7: the state who would come and tour it, and they
Speaker 7: would be like, all right, everybody, be on your best behavior,
Speaker 7: like this person from whatever fucking organ like Department of
Speaker 7: Education is coming. And so they they kind of slowly
Speaker 7: started to change their approach to certain things where actually
Speaker 7: and I, I uh, at some point years later, kind
Speaker 7: of did a lot of research like on the place,
Speaker 7: and I found these letters that the state had written
Speaker 7: back to the school kind of giving their critique of
Speaker 7: you know, what needed to be changed in order to
Speaker 7: get this accreditation. So anyway, some of the like tactics
Speaker 7: that they use changed, and that was kind of like
Speaker 7: just after my time. But there were some things that
Speaker 7: were like way more over and fucked up before I
Speaker 7: got there, Like before they had the isolation room, they
Speaker 7: would like roll you up in a carpet and like
Speaker 7: duct tape it so you couldn't move, like and just
Speaker 7: like kind of like leave you in this like closet area.
Speaker 7: Not like I mean, this doesn't mean it's good, but
Speaker 7: like not like dark closet you know, with clothes hanging,
Speaker 7: but just like this like storage room, right, you know.
Speaker 7: Christ And then the corner was a big one where
Speaker 7: like they would put you in the corner, which meant
Speaker 7: that you just had to if if it kind of
Speaker 7: like the first step of that is you would sit
Speaker 7: in a chair and face the corner for like all
Speaker 7: of your meals or all of your activity time, and
Speaker 7: then during class you would sit and face the regular
Speaker 7: way just to like do class stuff.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 7: And then if you got into more trouble, then you'd
Speaker 7: have to do like standing face the corner where you
Speaker 7: like would have to just stand and face the corner,
Speaker 7: and then in class you wouldn't face the corner, but
Speaker 7: you would still stand and yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 4: Stuff like that.
Speaker 7: If they if they thought you were like a potential
Speaker 7: like runaway risk, they would you know, put you on.
Speaker 4: Flip flops, or if they thought that you were.
Speaker 7: Like flirting a lot or trying to get attention from
Speaker 7: like whatever sex you were attracted to, they would put
Speaker 7: you on poverty where you had to like wear sweatpants.
Speaker 7: And sometimes they'd make you like wear a sign that
Speaker 7: said like I'm a slutty little flirt or something.
Speaker 5: I mean that at a slutty little flirt.
Speaker 3: It's hot.
Speaker 4: Yeah, they'd be like, all right, let everybody see your dick. Bulls.
Speaker 6: What was the like sleeping arrangements, Like.
Speaker 7: So each family had uh, you know, boys and girls,
Speaker 7: but obviously for sleeping arrangements it.
Speaker 4: Was like separated. Yeah, so you were.
Speaker 7: In a dorm with guys and it was like bunk
Speaker 7: beds and uh yeah.
Speaker 8: Oh.
Speaker 7: And also if they thought you were a runaway, they'd
Speaker 7: put you on something called landlock, where they like put
Speaker 7: two bunk beds together against the wall, so you had
Speaker 7: someone like sleeping right next to you and then like
Speaker 7: right above you, so you like couldn't get out without
Speaker 7: someone noticing.
Speaker 5: And the property was like in the middle of nowhere.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, middle of nowhere like the closest town and
Speaker 7: this is like a shit whole town. Like this town
Speaker 7: was fucking like oh man, it was like a shithole town.
Speaker 7: Was like that town was like seven miles away.
Speaker 6: Wow.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I read that someone did run away once.
Speaker 7: Oh people ran away, not all the time, but people
Speaker 7: ran away definitely hardly ever during the winter, you know,
Speaker 7: I think I.
Speaker 3: Read the story about a story about someone running away
Speaker 3: during the winter and razing to death.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I tried to run away during the winter in the
Speaker 7: like dumbest fucking way. I like put on I had
Speaker 7: like a car heart jacket with like a hood and
Speaker 7: a scarf. And if you there were a few people
Speaker 7: there that were over eighteen, like by the end of
Speaker 7: their stay. And so if you were over eighteen, unless
Speaker 7: you're a court mandated there, you could technically leave whenever
Speaker 7: you wanted, but usually you were like about to get
Speaker 7: out anyways, and like you know, they might withhold your
Speaker 7: like high school diploma if you like leave early or whatever.
Speaker 7: So most of the eighteen year olds tend to stay
Speaker 7: till till the end. And it was called like walking.
Speaker 7: And one day during the winter, I like put on
Speaker 7: the jacket and my scarf and like covered my face
Speaker 7: and stuff and just pretended. I thought I was like
Speaker 7: going to pretend I was like an eighteen year old
Speaker 7: who was just walking. And then they obviously quickly realized
Speaker 7: because they do like a million like roll calls that
Speaker 7: like I was missing, So then they like went and
Speaker 7: got me on the road.
Speaker 5: Shut damn, Yary.
Speaker 6: What made you decide to run away?
Speaker 7: I was like, there were like a few pretty dark
Speaker 7: periods there, but like the first one in particular was
Speaker 7: there when I had been like there like four or
Speaker 7: five months and I was on work sanction, and I
Speaker 7: think I was just like really depressed.
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was something weird with the food, right, was
Speaker 5: that happening?
Speaker 6: When you were there?
Speaker 7: You had to eat everything that they gave you, and
Speaker 7: the food was pretty gross. Oh and also if you
Speaker 7: if you misbehave, they could put you on like alternative
Speaker 7: meals where it'd be like like like like porridge in
Speaker 7: the morning and then like soy burgers for like breakfasts
Speaker 7: and lunch. And it was just like that. It was
Speaker 7: very much just like just we need to put something
Speaker 7: in your stomach, but you're not going to eat any
Speaker 7: of the quote unquote good stuff, which was fucking disgusting anyway.
Speaker 5: And when you were on work sanction, how long would
Speaker 5: that last for you?
Speaker 3: You'd basically just be like by yourself all day, doing
Speaker 3: hard labor and not interacting with people.
Speaker 5: Like what was the worst part about it for you?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 7: That was like that was the the It was just
Speaker 7: while like the ten hour school day was instead just
Speaker 7: like work. And honestly, like I didn't hate the work part.
Speaker 7: It was more just like you're not in school, so
Speaker 7: like if you're on it for too long, Like there
Speaker 7: were kids that had to stay like an extra six
Speaker 7: months because they were they were on Yeah, they weren't graduating,
Speaker 7: and a lot of parents were like, like, I, technically,
Speaker 7: time wise, like should have only been there. I think
Speaker 7: it was like nineteen months or something. No, no, twenty months,
Speaker 7: But I ended up staying twenty six because I would
Speaker 7: have got out in like halfway through senior year. And
Speaker 7: my parents were like, oh, we don't want him going
Speaker 7: to like a regular high school for six months, like
Speaker 7: that's too like dangerous for him or whatever.
Speaker 5: Oh man, Yeah, was the education decent? Like the class
Speaker 5: was okay fine?
Speaker 7: Yeah, Actually, like they had really high standards for education,
Speaker 7: kind of like they just had high like grade standards,
Speaker 7: so like if you didn't get a C, it was
Speaker 7: actually an F there, so you would have to retake
Speaker 7: the class.
Speaker 6: Damn.
Speaker 4: Yeah, who started it? And what was the like mission statement?
Speaker 7: Yeah, so that's actually kind of where it gets into
Speaker 7: the cultiest part. So the guy that started was this
Speaker 7: guy or named Tony R. Giros. He was like a
Speaker 7: New York guy who had a family. I don't think
Speaker 7: he was a drug addict, if I remember correctly. I
Speaker 7: think his wife was an alcoholic. And I think he
Speaker 7: was like a pretty bad sex addict or just serial cheater.
Speaker 7: I don't know if he was a sex addict, but
Speaker 7: he was definitely unfaithful to his wife a lot and
Speaker 7: might have had some gambling problems. And I think I
Speaker 7: think it was like, we should try giving our marriage
Speaker 7: another shot and leave New York. There's like too much
Speaker 7: temptation here. And so they moved to upstate New York
Speaker 7: with their kids and became religious. And I don't think
Speaker 7: they were really doing like AA stuff. I think it
Speaker 7: was more just they kind of became more religious and
Speaker 7: left the city, and I think when they got up there,
Speaker 7: they became even more religious. And then one of their
Speaker 7: daughter's friends was having a hard time with addiction stuff,
Speaker 7: and her parents kicked her out of their house and
Speaker 7: they took her in, and then it kind of snowballed
Speaker 7: into being like a few of their kid's friends had
Speaker 7: that situation happened, and like after a certain period of time,
Speaker 7: they were like, oh, I guess you know, we kind
Speaker 7: of liked taking in these kids and like helping them
Speaker 7: or whatever. And I think at that point it was
Speaker 7: kind of like still like pretty altruistic or whatever, Like
Speaker 7: they weren't making money off of it, and they owned
Speaker 7: this piece of land that the school ended up getting
Speaker 7: built on, but at that point it was kind of
Speaker 7: just like a farm where kids would go and they
Speaker 7: kind of all had chores and would sober up or whatever.
Speaker 7: And then simultaneously they met these people at this like
Speaker 7: commune in like a neighboring town, and they became friends
Speaker 7: with them, and a lot of like their like ideals
Speaker 7: kind of aligned. And anyways, that place was like a
Speaker 7: full on cult. It was called East Ridge, and like
Speaker 7: the history of that place is kind of crazy. So
Speaker 7: one of the guys that started AA was this guy
Speaker 7: Bill Wilson, and this guy was a sponsor of Bill
Speaker 7: Wilson's Oh, and Bill Wilson, like AA and Bill Wilson
Speaker 7: were very much like not into religion. And this guy
Speaker 7: was like, there are two problems with AA.
Speaker 4: It's not religious enough.
Speaker 7: And the guy that started it is like fucking way
Speaker 7: too many women. And so he left and started this
Speaker 7: commune and started this other program called Triple A.
Speaker 6: Loila's looking it up.
Speaker 3: I feel like this sounds so familiar to me, but okay,
Speaker 3: keep going.
Speaker 7: Yeah, he was like left and started this commune and
Speaker 7: started this other program called Triple A.
Speaker 4: Not the car fucking right.
Speaker 7: He did not become rich, and it was like all
Speaker 7: addicts anonymous, and his idea was like it should be
Speaker 7: religious based, and every person is kind of like in
Speaker 7: a Christian mindset, like every person is a sinner who needs,
Speaker 7: you know whatever, some sort of program to make them better.
Speaker 2: So you're the founders of the school are coming into
Speaker 2: contact with this with those deep tricks AA call kind
Speaker 2: of merging it into something that soon gives birth to
Speaker 2: where you ended up.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that colt actually like fractured at some point
Speaker 7: over like a disagreement over some stuff, and like half
Speaker 7: the people left and they needed jobs, and at that
Speaker 7: time this school was starting, and so those people came
Speaker 7: and worked at the school. So like my family leaders
Speaker 7: were members of that cult prior together.
Speaker 6: Oh wow, And so what were they like, I mean, you.
Speaker 4: Know, it's weird.
Speaker 7: It's like, I mean, they were fucking tough. Most of
Speaker 7: the family leaders were actually married in real life. They
Speaker 7: were very much about like the you know, male female
Speaker 7: family system. They were like fully like religious in that way.
Speaker 7: But the woman was this woman named Robin, and she
Speaker 7: was fucking terrifying. She like had boils all over her
Speaker 7: face and she like literally looked like a lizard and
Speaker 7: she a lizard, and she was like probably like four
Speaker 7: feet eleven. But like this bitch was tough. Like she
Speaker 7: was like so tough. Like she would like there'd be
Speaker 7: like a kid who would be like, you know, like
Speaker 7: crip affiliated or something from like Staten Island, like punching
Speaker 7: a hole in a window, and she would like get
Speaker 7: in this fucking kid's face and like scream at them,
Speaker 7: like she was like the real deal. And then her
Speaker 7: husband was this guy Mike, who was my You also
Speaker 7: get a signed a sponsor when you get there, like someone,
Speaker 7: so you get to sign a buddy like which is
Speaker 7: like an older kid, and then a staff member who's
Speaker 7: like a sponsor.
Speaker 6: Just like a normal AA sponsor, like.
Speaker 7: You know, according to you know, in their own weird
Speaker 7: AA yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because they're just like a on steroids at this plant.
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah yeah.
Speaker 7: And and he was mine and I really loved him,
Speaker 7: like I I actually like he was like very much
Speaker 7: like kind of like became someone who was really close
Speaker 7: to me in my life. And then years later, you know,
Speaker 7: I guess I have to say allegedly, I don't know,
Speaker 7: but like my best friend from that place, who was
Speaker 7: like total like totally like a brother, like we were
Speaker 7: very very close, like you know, probably like ten years
Speaker 7: or so after we got out, he like told me
Speaker 7: that this guy Mike had been like sexually abusing him
Speaker 7: the whole time there, along with like the priests I
Speaker 7: was there, so like and actually weirdly at that or
Speaker 7: maybe not weirdly, but at that Cole east Ridge, a
Speaker 7: lot of I think what had caused that place to
Speaker 7: kind of fall apart was because there were a bunch
Speaker 7: of like the guy that started Tom, I think his
Speaker 7: son was like a big sexual abuser. One of the
Speaker 7: guys that went and worked at the family school impregnated
Speaker 7: like an underage woman. Oh no, his son stayed at
Speaker 7: east Ridge and was like sexually abusing a lot of
Speaker 7: the kids there.
Speaker 3: So yeah, So was that a widespread thing that was happening.
Speaker 4: I don't know. I never.
Speaker 7: I never, Like that wasn't my experience and I never.
Speaker 7: Definitely didn't know about it when I was there. Also
Speaker 7: didn't know about it for a long time till after
Speaker 7: I left, and my friend was the first one to
Speaker 7: tell me about it, and he had mentioned a few
Speaker 7: other kids that had went there that he knew was
Speaker 7: also being sexually abused.
Speaker 3: I mean, generally, when there's one kid, it's generally not
Speaker 3: one kid.
Speaker 7: I'm sure, Yeah, I just don't know how many like
Speaker 7: staff members were to be doing it.
Speaker 3: Right, So I'm curious, like, as you were there and
Speaker 3: having a really shitty time, were you communicating with your
Speaker 3: parents at all about what was going on?
Speaker 7: Not really, So, like the first month you're there, you
Speaker 7: can't talk to your family. I think that's kind of
Speaker 7: to give you time to kind of realize, like, hey,
Speaker 7: this is how this shit goes here, you know, Like,
Speaker 7: because I think if you were there like a week,
Speaker 7: you'd probably get on the phone and be like, hey,
Speaker 7: this is really fucked up, Like well, you know, and
Speaker 7: so I think it's like for you to kind of
Speaker 7: get the message and then and then they have somebody
Speaker 7: listening to your calls, you know, and so like if
Speaker 7: you it wouldn't be like one of those things where
Speaker 7: like if I got on the phone and I was like, hey, mom,
Speaker 7: like you know, this place is way worse than you thought.
Speaker 7: They're doing X, Y and Z or whatever, that they
Speaker 7: would just like click, hang it up. But it would
Speaker 7: be like, all right, tomorrow, you're getting up at the
Speaker 7: table for a table topic and they're gonna fucking like
Speaker 7: go off on you. And then of course they're going
Speaker 7: to tell your parents, Like you know, this is part
Speaker 7: of the process for an addict. They're you know, a
Speaker 7: manipulator and you know, like he's just not liking that
Speaker 7: he's not getting what he wants or whatever.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 6: Oh, it's just a perfect system.
Speaker 3: There's like a network of troubled team I say in
Speaker 3: quotes programs that were super super abusive. There was a
Speaker 3: talk about it recently and I'm blinking on the name,
Speaker 3: but they were saying that like their programs would essentially
Speaker 3: tell their pa parents in advance that their kids were
Speaker 3: gonna lie to them, yeah, and like prime the parents
Speaker 3: to not believe anything the kids say anyway for sure,
Speaker 3: and so like it really just yeah, like what option
Speaker 3: do you have.
Speaker 4: It's like a.
Speaker 3: Person who's in an institution being like I'm not crazy,
Speaker 3: I'm not supposed to be here.
Speaker 2: Like it's like them finding out a government conspiracy that's
Speaker 2: true and trying to tell people yeah.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 7: And even when the parents go and like get a
Speaker 7: tour or whatever, which most parents do before they send
Speaker 7: their kids there, it's like they have two kids that
Speaker 7: are like about to leave, that are doing really well,
Speaker 7: that are giving the tour, and then when they put
Speaker 7: them in the family for lunch to see how table
Speaker 7: topics work, like they're only they're going to be like, okay,
Speaker 7: like this family, it would be a good table topic
Speaker 7: for the parents to see because it'd be something like
Speaker 7: more constructive and less like we're going to fucking like
Speaker 7: rip you in front of everybody. Like you know, I've
Speaker 7: definitely seen them be like all right, we're gonna deal
Speaker 7: with this serious one tomorrow when like you know, there's
Speaker 7: not a tour happening.
Speaker 3: You know, did you get like called out much or
Speaker 3: because you kept such a low profile table topic.
Speaker 7: Oh, I was definitely everybody. There's no escaping table topics.
Speaker 7: But yeah, I mean usually most of what I would
Speaker 7: get in trouble for was being like flying on They
Speaker 7: would say, flying under the radar.
Speaker 4: They said, there's no winning, there's no winning.
Speaker 7: And also I would say, like the two things that
Speaker 7: they kind of like really hounded me about was flying
Speaker 7: under the radar, and then that woman Robin who was
Speaker 7: like that scary tough lizard woman would like get me
Speaker 7: up there and say and like just like fucking like
Speaker 7: ream me out and just yell at me and say
Speaker 7: that I am the king of self pity. Wow. Yeah,
Speaker 7: So yeah, self pity was something that they would hound
Speaker 7: me about. I mean, and hindsight, I realized, like it's depression, right.
Speaker 3: You know, did it fuck with your sense of self
Speaker 3: at all? Like did they get in your head for real?
Speaker 4: Totally?
Speaker 5: Yeah?
Speaker 7: I mean I think at that age, or at least
Speaker 7: for me, I didn't. The idea of like sense of
Speaker 7: self wasn't something I like, you know, I questioned.
Speaker 4: Or thought about. But in hindsight for sure, Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I have to imagine if people are
Speaker 3: just telling you you're bad all day. Yeah, and the
Speaker 3: whole program sort of centered around punishment and never being
Speaker 3: good enough.
Speaker 5: Like that's got a oh totally, especially.
Speaker 3: For young young minds who are we're already struggling before
Speaker 3: coming here.
Speaker 2: The whole thing has like Stockholm syndrome built into the
Speaker 2: DNA where you leave it or like I guess I
Speaker 2: was bad and like that place might have kind of
Speaker 2: helped me.
Speaker 7: Like yeah, I mean after I left there, I stayed
Speaker 7: sober for like ten years or something, and then I
Speaker 7: ended up relapsing. And I think a big part of
Speaker 7: that was, like they like in total, I think I
Speaker 7: was sober like twelve years or something and I ended
Speaker 7: up relapsing Cuz you know, like my life was really
Speaker 7: good and you know, I was like twelve years sober
Speaker 7: and like you know, went back to grad school when
Speaker 7: I like was a high school dropout and you know,
Speaker 7: had friends and was in this like six year relationship.
Speaker 7: You know, like in a lot of ways, like I
Speaker 7: think people would objectively look in my life and be like, no,
Speaker 7: you're like, you know, I don't know successful quote unquote,
Speaker 7: but I just mean, like.
Speaker 4: You are a you know functioning member.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you're a functioning person who's like trying to be
Speaker 7: a good person and doing you know, good shit, and
Speaker 7: like no matter what, I like just fucking hated myself.
Speaker 7: And I think it was like it got to the
Speaker 7: point where I was like, I just can't stay sober
Speaker 7: any longer if like, you know, all of these areas
Speaker 7: of my life get better, but I just like continue
Speaker 7: to hate myself. Know, like it was it was just
Speaker 7: like no matter what, it wasn't good enough in my head.
Speaker 7: I mean like no matter what it wasn't good enough,
Speaker 7: I was always a fuck up.
Speaker 4: It was you know.
Speaker 7: It's just and I think almost, if not all of
Speaker 7: that came from that place, you know, like that school.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like you can technically isolate kids from their
Speaker 3: drugs or alcohol of choice and like technically control their
Speaker 3: behavior so it stops. But it's like what's the word
Speaker 3: term when you stop drinking, but you don't have a
Speaker 3: community around it.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like if you're not actually providing them tools
Speaker 3: and you're just like making them feel bad.
Speaker 2: All the just punishments that are connecting you to any yeah,
Speaker 2: true sense of self.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like you could tech you could point at
Speaker 3: that and be like, all these kids got sober, It's like,
Speaker 3: well they didn't really have a choice. Yeah, and then
Speaker 3: once they were out, they were left on their own
Speaker 3: with like suddenly a constant sense of no like no
Speaker 3: self worth basically.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and everything was like a punishment. Like it was
Speaker 7: like if I did something quote unquote wrong or whatever,
Speaker 7: even if the world didn't punish me or like the
Speaker 7: constant there weren't like consequences, like I would be punishing me,
Speaker 7: you know. So yeah, and that was like I think
Speaker 7: all from that place, you know, Like I mean I
Speaker 7: would say, like in hindsight, like my parents are two
Speaker 7: good people. They were never like abusive or anything. They
Speaker 7: might not have been the best parents in terms of
Speaker 7: like parenting or like having a relationship with me, but
Speaker 7: I definitely didn't come from like an abusive background before this,
Speaker 7: you know.
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that just constant. I mean we see it
Speaker 3: in so many cults and so many religions all the time,
Speaker 3: Like when your whole worldview is centered around what you're
Speaker 3: doing wrong. Yeah, like that is just not going to
Speaker 3: not have an impact on adults, On fully formed adults
Speaker 3: with fully formed identities and thriving lives like over time.
Speaker 5: It's just like yeah, bucks, you up.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 7: And one other thing that I forgot to mention, like that,
Speaker 7: have you guys heard of synan On?
Speaker 3: Yes, I was going to mention sin On because I
Speaker 3: think that's what I was actually thinking of when I said.
Speaker 7: Like a lot of these boarding schools mine included, like
Speaker 7: the methods were pretty much taken from Synanon in terms
Speaker 7: of like you know, like the reprimanding and the group
Speaker 7: humiliation and all of that stuff. Like that's very like
Speaker 7: Synanon total tactic.
Speaker 5: It's a classic cult tactic.
Speaker 3: I mean like public humiliation in front of the group
Speaker 3: and having like never being good enough and yeah, like
Speaker 3: all of these things are.
Speaker 5: Pretty pretty and it works perfectly. It does.
Speaker 9: The fucking craziest part, Yeah, it really is just a
Speaker 9: perfect system of control.
Speaker 3: You want to.
Speaker 5: Believe that you're immune to that.
Speaker 3: You know that you get in there and you'd be
Speaker 3: like you'd have the mental fortitude to like withstand it,
Speaker 3: but like we fucking don't. Like we're just animal with
Speaker 3: their stupid animal brains, and if we people take advantage
Speaker 3: of them, they can.
Speaker 7: I love when people say like, oh I can never
Speaker 7: get like sucked into a cult, and it's like you
Speaker 7: really don't know. And also I think for a lot
Speaker 7: of adults it's probably like timing in terms of like
Speaker 7: what is going on in their lives and where they
Speaker 7: are emotionally and maybe where they're not or whatever. But
Speaker 7: like as a child, it's like, oh, you're fucking getting
Speaker 7: sucked in no matter what, you know what I mean,
Speaker 7: even if you don't believe it, like exactly.
Speaker 2: That's how like in my cult, I didn't believe it,
Speaker 2: but I was in it. Yeah, I still hated myself
Speaker 2: through the lives of it, even though I was like
Speaker 2: this is dumb. Yeah, it's just like a very odd Yeah,
Speaker 2: you can resist the boarding school but still.
Speaker 6: Have to be entrenched in the belief system somehow.
Speaker 5: It's so weird for sure.
Speaker 7: Yeah, even like you know, I'm not trying to say
Speaker 7: like all religions bad or something, but even like I
Speaker 7: remember I had a you know, a girlfriend friend who
Speaker 7: grew up Catholic or whatever, and I think, you know,
Speaker 7: one time she was we were having like a conversation
Speaker 7: and she was like, you know, like deep down I.
Speaker 4: Do feel bad about like there are some.
Speaker 7: Negative emotions about having like sex outside of marriage, even
Speaker 7: though she wasn't religious at all, like didn't believe in it.
Speaker 7: Oh whatever, Sure, it's just like that ingrain thing.
Speaker 5: Yeah that was me post Mormonism.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I like even though Mormons don't believe in hell,
Speaker 3: they literally have a different belief system. It's like you
Speaker 3: just go to the lower tier of heaven or whatever,
Speaker 3: but you don't get to chill with your family in heaven.
Speaker 4: So I don't want to true.
Speaker 3: But I still for some reason when I had sex,
Speaker 3: was like I'm going to Hell, Like that was where
Speaker 3: my head went because it's such a horrible sin in Mormonism,
Speaker 3: and for years I had such awful bagage aroundite.
Speaker 6: Lola is still soaking? Is that what it's called?
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm doing it right now. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I don't know when we should jump to this part,
Speaker 2: but I want to hear about the.
Speaker 5: Day you like leave, what that feels like. Are we
Speaker 5: ready for that?
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 4: Oh man, that was like the greatest day of my life.
Speaker 7: Yeah, graduated, Yeah.
Speaker 6: I feel like, what did it?
Speaker 7: The first day felt amazing. It's it's actually weird because
Speaker 7: it's hard for me to really remember the first day.
Speaker 7: The first day is kind of what you'd say, it's
Speaker 7: like there's a graduation ceremony because you're also graduating from
Speaker 7: high school and then you go out to lunch and
Speaker 7: all this stuff. And my best friend from there that
Speaker 7: I told you about, he had to stay for another
Speaker 7: six months, so you know, like I felt bad for
Speaker 7: him and that was sad saying goodbye. And then it
Speaker 7: ended up being that he had a home. Is it
Speaker 7: timed for when I was graduating? So we both like
Speaker 7: left campus that same day together and he actually never
Speaker 7: went back.
Speaker 2: WHOA, But uh, you're like rolling out of the threshold
Speaker 2: of that place, Like is it just like scary or.
Speaker 4: Is it first?
Speaker 7: It's just like except like there are so many things
Speaker 7: that they deem negative there that you can't talk about.
Speaker 4: So all rap music is negative? Oh sorry?
Speaker 7: Like literally, like there was no rapper reggae that you
Speaker 7: could listen.
Speaker 4: To except it's like pot culture or something.
Speaker 7: But the only thing that wasn't negative was modest Y
Speaker 7: Who because he was white reggae. But yeah, there was
Speaker 7: no like rapper reggae. There was no like R rated movies,
Speaker 7: and you couldn't even say like you could not say
Speaker 7: the name Snoop Dogg for example.
Speaker 5: You couldn't say the names. What would happen if you said.
Speaker 4: They'd be like that's negative. You have to stop saying that, Like.
Speaker 5: He's going to appear in the mirror behind.
Speaker 4: It was literally like so yeah.
Speaker 7: That was another thing too, is like by the time
Speaker 7: you leave, like culturally, you don't know what's going on,
Speaker 7: Like there is a like you leave and you try
Speaker 7: to interact with people, Like I remember I left and
Speaker 7: I came back to LA for a visit, like you know,
Speaker 7: like to visit home. I mean before I was going
Speaker 7: to like go to college and in New York City
Speaker 7: and I was hanging out with a friend and he
Speaker 7: put on Lil Wayne's The Carter Too, and I was
Speaker 7: like what is this? And he was like what are
Speaker 7: you talking about? And I was like, I've never heard
Speaker 7: this before, like this is good, and he's like this
Speaker 7: is Lil Wayne, dude, like this is the biggest album
Speaker 7: in the world. And I was like I didn't, I've
Speaker 7: never heard of that. But that was like every that
Speaker 7: was like culturally kind of everything.
Speaker 5: Did you have internet there with like.
Speaker 7: A shitloader really just to like do some schoolwork, like
Speaker 7: you couldn't like go on ship, right, So yeah, so.
Speaker 2: You're just like dropped back in the world of rap, porn,
Speaker 2: the news, everything fresh, freedom, wild.
Speaker 8: Oh.
Speaker 7: I just like the first night I like after I left,
Speaker 7: I was like in New York City and I just
Speaker 7: like walked around by myself and I was like, it
Speaker 7: felt like I was like in a dream or something.
Speaker 7: And then the first the thing that I remember clearly though,
Speaker 7: is the next day I woke up and I felt
Speaker 7: really sad that I didn't like wake up in the
Speaker 7: dorm with all of the people, like all my friends social. Yeah,
Speaker 7: like I felt I felt very alone, very quickly.
Speaker 5: Right damn yeah.
Speaker 6: Wow, Go ahead.
Speaker 3: I mean, I know you kind of already told us
Speaker 3: it took you a few years to unpack what had happened.
Speaker 3: How have you processed it over time? What's your sense
Speaker 3: of it now?
Speaker 7: Well, I think first there was no questioning of it,
Speaker 7: Like I think I didn't know to question it, and
Speaker 7: I did probably would have been like too overwhelming. I
Speaker 7: also like had no fucking clue how to like I could,
Speaker 7: Like I said, when I left, I continue to stay
Speaker 7: sober for a while, and being an AA was helpful
Speaker 7: because it was very different than that. But at least
Speaker 7: there was somewhat of like a common language, like, but
Speaker 7: I had no idea how to interact with like people
Speaker 7: my age that were like, you know, quote unquote normal
Speaker 7: people like I. When I went to college immediately after
Speaker 7: and at the school I went to for the first
Speaker 7: six months, they you kind of like it's like group
Speaker 7: block scheduling and what the the what they try to
Speaker 7: do is kind of keep you in the same classes
Speaker 7: with the same like twenty freshmen so that you can
Speaker 7: kind of build a network of friends or whatever. And
Speaker 7: they would all hang out with each other and I
Speaker 7: literally like, I don't think. I don't think I said
Speaker 7: word to them the whole time. And then I remember
Speaker 7: right before spring break, I was going into a class
Speaker 7: and they were all leaving and they were like, hey,
Speaker 7: we're not going to go to class, Like, why don't
Speaker 7: you come hang out with us in Central Park? And
Speaker 7: I was like, all right, I guess I probably should
Speaker 7: do that. And I got there and I like legitimately
Speaker 7: like I was like I don't know what to say
Speaker 7: to these people. And I like texted my AA sponsor
Speaker 7: and I was like, Hey, can you call me in
Speaker 7: two minutes? And he called me, and I was so
Speaker 7: far like the idea that I even was pretending to
Speaker 7: have a girlfriend was laughable, like my girlfriend, yeah, and
Speaker 7: he was like this like forty year old gay dude.
Speaker 7: And I was like, I answer the phone. I was like, oh,
Speaker 7: hey baby, Oh you're down the street. Yeah, no, I'll
Speaker 7: be there in a second. I was like, sorry, guys,
Speaker 7: my girlfriend's call. And then yeah, and then I don't know.
Speaker 7: I I my first girlfriend when I left was a
Speaker 7: girl that was there with me. Yeah, and U and then.
Speaker 4: I don't know.
Speaker 7: And then I started to like actually like have some
Speaker 7: interests in undergrad and so I started to meet people
Speaker 7: that way. And then my girlfriend, like my long term
Speaker 7: like six year relationship, like she wasn't sober when we
Speaker 7: started dating, and so like that was kind of the
Speaker 7: first time where I was really kind of building relationships
Speaker 7: with people that like weren't sober or like hadn't gone
Speaker 7: to that school. And mind you, this like three years
Speaker 7: after I left, and then it kind of started from there.
Speaker 7: And then like right after we started dating, I like
Speaker 7: started therapy, which I'd always been like very against therapy,
Speaker 7: and that was like a very long process. Like I
Speaker 7: still see that therapist now like once a month, like
Speaker 7: for check ins and if you were to ask her
Speaker 7: like legitimately, like I think almost nothing changed.
Speaker 4: For like eight years.
Speaker 7: Like we would see each other once a week, and
Speaker 7: I would just sit there and say almost nothing and
Speaker 7: she and at some point in the session, I'd like
Speaker 7: break down crying and she wouldn't really know why. I mean,
Speaker 7: she'd know why, but it wouldn't be like and I'm
Speaker 7: feeling this and that, Like I couldn't even communicate how
Speaker 7: I was feeling.
Speaker 4: Whoa Like.
Speaker 7: And then and then my ex broke up with me,
Speaker 7: and she was like I can't really do this anymore
Speaker 7: because I you know, we'd been we'd been in a
Speaker 7: relationship six years, and I don't think I once.
Speaker 4: Said I feel dot dot dot Like I.
Speaker 7: Was like so emotionally shut down. Yeah, and then when
Speaker 7: she broke up with me, that kind of was like
Speaker 7: the beginning of the helpful unraveling. Like I relapsed, and
Speaker 7: you know, I was a fucking mess for like two
Speaker 7: or three years or whatever, But it was really the
Speaker 7: beginning of like, oh, I this is going to like
Speaker 7: this is going to be my life till I die
Speaker 7: unless I like do something about it.
Speaker 2: Whoa Yeah, Yeah, it's like your body knew that there
Speaker 2: was a lot of trauma, but your mind didn't know
Speaker 2: how to express it.
Speaker 6: And that's yeah, that's so sad.
Speaker 5: I'm glad that you broke through after all that time
Speaker 5: about that.
Speaker 2: But also you said something so interesting that I don't
Speaker 2: want to forget, which is when you like genuinely became
Speaker 2: interested in something, is when you kind of started making friends.
Speaker 2: And I always say that in the X two by
Speaker 2: two group because people are like, I don't.
Speaker 6: Know how to make friends.
Speaker 2: I don't know, and I'm just I think classes, even
Speaker 2: as an adult, of something you're genuinely passionate about, is
Speaker 2: like the way to make friends.
Speaker 5: After all, it's a great tip.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I think also I like luked out, which
Speaker 7: is that, like the thing that I was interested in
Speaker 7: is by nature like fully collaborative, so like that is
Speaker 7: not like doing it by myself.
Speaker 5: Right, he's referring to filmmaking.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, everybody, that's true.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I'm curious because now obviously we know so much more
Speaker 3: about how many people left his program and went on
Speaker 3: to die.
Speaker 5: What do you attribute that to?
Speaker 7: Well, I think, for I think most kids that got
Speaker 7: sent there, probably like ninety eight percent had some sort
Speaker 7: of like legitimate problems you know, like I don't know
Speaker 7: that everybody was like an alcoholic or drug addict, Like
Speaker 7: some of them might have just been like mental health stuff,
Speaker 7: you know, Like I think it was a variety of things.
Speaker 7: But I think that the majority of kids there, either
Speaker 7: before they got there or after they left, like ended
Speaker 7: up becoming alcoholics or drug addicts. And I think because
Speaker 7: the school like tried to use AA as like a
Speaker 7: punishment tool, which is like very different than what AA
Speaker 7: or like my experience of AA has actually been. I
Speaker 7: think a lot of them had just this thing that
Speaker 7: they couldn't get past. And I don't think A is
Speaker 7: like the only way for like a drug addict or
Speaker 7: an alcoholic to you know, like change or you know,
Speaker 7: overcome their addiction or something. But I do think it's
Speaker 7: probably the easiest way, Like you know, it's you know,
Speaker 7: there's just like a program of action that you do
Speaker 7: and it's pretty simple, Like it's probably not easy, but
Speaker 7: it's like pretty simple, and you have like a community
Speaker 7: of people to help you through it or whatever. And
Speaker 7: they a lot of them like couldn't get their foot
Speaker 7: in the door because they just couldn't see it as
Speaker 7: something separate from that place, and then I think for
Speaker 7: a lot of people just even you know, like I
Speaker 7: have a lot of friends that you know, did go
Speaker 7: to AA or were sober for a while, who you
Speaker 7: know psychologically, It just was a lot, And one of
Speaker 7: which was my friend who was sober for like a
Speaker 7: number of years and then started and he was like
Speaker 7: a pretty bad junkie and ended up getting sober, and
Speaker 7: we knew each other from this school, and he ended
Speaker 7: up getting sober again after kind of like a longer
Speaker 7: about with like heroin and was sober for a number
Speaker 7: of years and then he started like microdosing like THHC
Speaker 7: and really getting into that, but like wasn't drinking or
Speaker 7: doing harder drugs or anything, and like was trying to
Speaker 7: write a book on this place and like fully went
Speaker 7: crazy and like killed himself. I mean I think he
Speaker 7: had I think he had other mental health stuff that
Speaker 7: was unlocked from, like cause I know a lot of
Speaker 7: people that are like predisposed to, you know, to like
Speaker 7: mental health disorders like can have that you know, kind
Speaker 7: of like exaggerated by using like THHC. But yeah, he
Speaker 7: like fully went off the rails. And it was really
Speaker 7: like it was really dark and it was really scary,
Speaker 7: and it was during the pandemic, so you know, everybody
Speaker 7: was really isolated. But it was also like when the
Speaker 7: whole like George Floyd protests were happening, so we like weirdly,
Speaker 7: you know, and people started to kind of leave their houses,
Speaker 7: so like we were seeing him kind of often. And
Speaker 7: then he just kind of started like not making He'd
Speaker 7: send us like nonsensical texts or whatever, and he just
Speaker 7: like manically would talk about how he's like writing this
Speaker 7: book about this place or whatever.
Speaker 4: But yeah, he like killed.
Speaker 7: Himself and he had like a deep level of like
Speaker 7: self hatred and like a deep like contempt for like
Speaker 7: any sort of like spirituality in aa like totally from
Speaker 7: that place, and like he ended up stabbing himself.
Speaker 4: It was really it was really dark.
Speaker 7: Sorry, I mean yeah, but but I think I think,
Speaker 7: you know, I think.
Speaker 4: That place took a lot of tools that probably would.
Speaker 7: Help people through things like this and just like twisted
Speaker 7: them into these like you know, bludgeoning tools rather than
Speaker 7: tools of help or whatever.
Speaker 3: Well, and and trauma can increase the risk of addiction
Speaker 3: and uh, you know, mental health struggles as it is,
Speaker 3: so if someone's already coming in with that and then
Speaker 3: they're being rolled into a carpet in a room, you know,
Speaker 3: like that's yeah. The New York Times article if anyone's
Speaker 3: interested talks about how you know, there were there'd be
Speaker 3: people who would like testify and be speaking out against
Speaker 3: how much it messed up them and their friends, and
Speaker 3: then that person later would kill themselves, Like yeah, it
Speaker 3: really it was a real yeah, real dark place, and
Speaker 3: I am sorry that you experienced that, thank you, but
Speaker 3: I'm glad you're doing better. And are you in a
Speaker 3: healthy relationship now?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 7: I am in a healthy relationship now. Although my girlfriend
Speaker 7: and i'd just gotten a fight the other day and
Speaker 7: I was just like not, I like shut down for
Speaker 7: a second. She's like, what what's wrong? And I was
Speaker 7: like talking, it's just so gross. So yeah, you know,
Speaker 7: for the most part, but there are moments where I,
Speaker 7: you know, fall short. But yeah, yeah, for sure, I
Speaker 7: mean the last like since like coming back from that relapse,
Speaker 7: like honestly like, yeah, my life's like the best it's
Speaker 7: ever been for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah amazing, And you definitely like you still do aa
Speaker 2: yeah and I do as well. So yeah, so yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean it is.
Speaker 6: An important program that I strongly encourage anyone to utilize
Speaker 6: if they want to. It does have that confusing aspect
Speaker 6: where it can be culty.
Speaker 4: But it doesn't have to be for sure.
Speaker 6: Yeah you know, so yeah.
Speaker 7: I think like in any group, like you find people
Speaker 7: like I think I just got better at going to
Speaker 7: AA and being like I want to be around that person.
Speaker 7: I don't want to be around that person because like
Speaker 7: the first like the first sponsor I really gravitated to
Speaker 7: was like super controlling, and it felt really comfortable because
Speaker 7: it was like an extension of that place and in
Speaker 7: a really like inappropriate way, like inappropriate even like in the.
Speaker 4: Realm of AA.
Speaker 7: Like I think if you were to tell most people
Speaker 7: the way he like quote unquote sponsored, they'd be like
Speaker 7: that's fucked up, Like that's crazy. But that was like
Speaker 7: what I knew, that was like what I gravitated towards.
Speaker 7: And now I'm just like very clear on like what
Speaker 7: works for me, what I want, Like I don't like
Speaker 7: I'm pretty comfortable with who I am to the extent
Speaker 7: that i'd be like I'm not fucking doing that.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, j any words of wisdom for our listeners.
Speaker 7: No pressure words of wisdom.
Speaker 4: I don't know if this words of wisdom.
Speaker 7: But I think just like in high insight, I would say,
Speaker 7: there's nothing in my life that I look back on
Speaker 7: and I'm like, wow, I really wish that didn't happen
Speaker 7: to me. Like ultimately, you know, all of these things
Speaker 7: that we experience, you know, have like ultimately led to
Speaker 7: like being beneficial. You know, it took a long time,
Speaker 7: and it took a lot of like you know, there
Speaker 7: was a lot of like progress and then regression and
Speaker 7: all of that stuff. But like in hindsight, I definitely
Speaker 7: am weirdly kind of quite grateful for all of it.
Speaker 6: And that's called resilience. And you should listen to.
Speaker 9: And post Traumatic Grow post Traumatic Crowd, which we also
Speaker 9: have an episode on.
Speaker 2: I mean not Amen, yay, amen, Amen.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for being a guest. This is
Speaker 6: such a fascinating conversation.
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you, Yoni.
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 5: And that's the end of you. No, oh my goodness,
Speaker 5: that's the end of Yonie.
Speaker 2: It's the end of Yanie's interview. Continue forever, Ayoni, continue forever.
Speaker 4: Amen.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm I'm really glad he came on.
Speaker 3: We didn't really talk about it in the interview, but
Speaker 3: there are like strange connections to people that we know,
Speaker 3: like it all kind of intersects with Yoni and this
Speaker 3: particular program.
Speaker 6: Yeah, do you have what a final thoughts?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 5: Any final thoughts?
Speaker 2: Well, I want to land on something you planted out earlier,
Speaker 2: which was that, well you say it okay about the recruitment.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess one thing that I think is sort
Speaker 3: of an interesting takeaway maybe or maybe not interesting at
Speaker 3: all we'll see about this episode is that you know,
Speaker 3: there there is As we know, many cults recruit from
Speaker 3: vulnerable populations, which could mean a variety of things, but
Speaker 3: groups like sen and on scientology recovery programs like this
Speaker 3: I say programs or recovery in air quotes are recruiting
Speaker 3: from a very particular vulnerable population, which is those who
Speaker 3: are struggling with substance use disorders. And I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: as we know, like really anything, cults will really find
Speaker 3: anything to latch onto that might make you feel like
Speaker 3: you need help or like you need community or something.
Speaker 3: But that's just a particularly insidious one, I feel like,
Speaker 3: because that population is so in need of help, and yeah,
Speaker 3: they're so they're so vulnerable, they need legitimate treatment, they
Speaker 3: need evidence based treatment and support, and you know, groups
Speaker 3: like that will sort of masquerade as being support and
Speaker 3: then actually be causing more harm in the end than.
Speaker 2: Than Absolutely, it's such a good point, and I wish
Speaker 2: there was a better solution built into society.
Speaker 4: We should we shouldn't do that, guys.
Speaker 5: I think about this all the time. I mean, this
Speaker 5: is sort of a tangent, so ignore me.
Speaker 3: But like, there's there's a group called you know, I
Speaker 3: became interested in this because of my brother's ventanyl overdose.
Speaker 3: If anyone doesn't know, my brother overdosed on fentanyl and
Speaker 3: he has he has a brain injury now as a result,
Speaker 3: and is no longer able to live independently and in like,
Speaker 3: you know, like learning about that whole world because he
Speaker 3: was trying to get into treatment when he overdosed and
Speaker 3: his insurance didn't cover it whatever, whatever, it was awful.
Speaker 3: There's an organization called shatter Proof that is working to
Speaker 3: have there be standardized evidence based care across rehabs in
Speaker 3: the country, because right now there's no standardized care. So
Speaker 3: people can just buy a place and be like yeah,
Speaker 3: we got yeah horse therapy, and that's literally all they do,
Speaker 3: and then they're sending people in their merry way having
Speaker 3: spent thirty thousand dollars, you know, like it's we talked
Speaker 3: about it before, is something I'm passionate about.
Speaker 5: So anyway, there are groups that are working to standardize that. Karen,
Speaker 5: I think it's so so so so so so so
Speaker 5: so important.
Speaker 2: Personally, absolutely, And you know, there's always that vulnerable population
Speaker 2: of people who were in cults from birth are joined
Speaker 2: one and then they get into substance abuse issues because
Speaker 2: of the trauma.
Speaker 6: It's just such a delicate web.
Speaker 3: So yeah, if you are struggling with the substance use disorder,
Speaker 3: please seek treatment twelve step programs. There are lots of
Speaker 3: resources availables. Our producer Steve will drop.
Speaker 5: Them into the show notes.
Speaker 3: And yeah, and I hope you are all going easy
Speaker 3: on yourselves this holiday season.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much for spending another week with us.
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you again next week. And
Speaker 2: as always, remember.
Speaker 6: To follow your gut, watch out for red.
Speaker 5: Flags, and never ever trust me.
Speaker 6: Ye trust Me.
Speaker 3: Is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator,
Speaker 3: with special thanks to Stacy Para and her theme song
Speaker 3: was composed by Holly Amber Church. You can find us
Speaker 3: on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me
Speaker 3: Cult pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.
Speaker 5: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.
Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham
Speaker 2: Hicks on Twitter.
Speaker 5: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.