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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, this is producer Steve And in the event

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Speaker 1: that you're still looking for some holiday gifts right now,

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Speaker 1: well La, Megan and I encourage you to go check

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Speaker 1: it out. We would really appreciate it, and from all

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Speaker 1: of us here on the show, thank you week in

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Speaker 1: and week out for choosing to listen to Trust Me.

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Speaker 2: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 2: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 3: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 3: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 2: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 2: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 3: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 2: Or shoot us an email at trustmepod at gmail dot com.

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Speaker 4: Trust Me, Trust for trust Me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I've never lied to you.

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Speaker 3: If you think that one person has all the answers,

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Speaker 3: Don't Welcome to Trust Me, the podcast about cults, extreme

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Speaker 3: belief and manipulation from two Wilderness girls who've actually experienced it.

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Speaker 3: I'm Lo La Blanc and I'm Megan Elizabeth, and today

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Speaker 3: is part two of our interview with friend of the show,

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Speaker 3: Yonie Shreira. He's a former student at the Family Foundation's School,

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Speaker 3: also known as alan Wood, and as a reminder, this

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Speaker 3: was a remote, troubled teen program known for a series

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Speaker 3: of lawsuits brought against it, as well as over a

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Speaker 3: hundred deaths from overdose or suicide by its former attendees.

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Speaker 3: Last week we talked about how and why Yoni ended

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Speaker 3: up in this abusive school and the culture there of

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Speaker 3: required snitching. And this week he's going to tell us

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Speaker 3: about the punishments the kids endured, including hard labor and isolation.

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Speaker 2: He'll tell us about trying to run away, the origins

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Speaker 2: of the group and the man who created it, how

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Speaker 2: the kids were kept isolated from their families, the way

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Speaker 2: it impacted him after he left, and why he thinks

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Speaker 2: so many of its former students have died.

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Speaker 3: It's super sad, and we talk about this in the interviews,

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Speaker 3: so I won't get too into it. But you know,

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Speaker 3: it's already such a vulnerable population teenagers in the first place,

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Speaker 3: and then people who are struggling with addiction, and then

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Speaker 3: when you put those things together and then you add abuse,

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Speaker 3: it's just it's a perfect really really awesome, really really

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Speaker 3: awful recipe.

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Speaker 4: I thought you're just say awesome.

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Speaker 5: I know my tongue slived, my tongueless like us.

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Speaker 4: Correct, you need to quit.

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Speaker 5: Awful.

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Speaker 4: It's awful. It's a perfect storm.

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Speaker 3: Yes, No, it's freaking horrible and really really sad, and

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Speaker 3: you will hear more about it shortly and before we

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Speaker 3: get back into it with Yoni.

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Speaker 5: Megan, do you have a coldiest thing this week? I do.

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Speaker 2: Mine is related to the group that I grew up in,

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Speaker 2: the two by twos. It's been a pretty heavily media

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Speaker 2: covered case I just saw shared on ABC. One of

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Speaker 2: the like on and off elders in the church has

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Speaker 2: been sentenced to one hundred and twenty years in jail

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Speaker 2: for distributing images of children. And he has some money.

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Speaker 2: He hired a really good defense lawyer. You know, there

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Speaker 2: was some seats of doubt planted, but ultimately he was

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Speaker 2: found guilty, which is pretty hard to do.

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Speaker 6: You know, I haven't.

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Speaker 2: This case isn't something that I've been following, per se

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Speaker 2: or know every detail about, but it did just bring

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Speaker 2: to light a bigger issue to me, which is like

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Speaker 2: this kind of built in defense that a lot of

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Speaker 2: these high control groups have built in, which is that

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Speaker 2: they say, we're going to be persecuted, right, so already

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Speaker 2: there's this defense of like unconsciously in people's mind like

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Speaker 2: oh here it's happening. The persecution is beginning, Like here's

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Speaker 2: this wonrateful. It's Mams, he's innocent.

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Speaker 6: And it's just been really odd to watch.

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Speaker 5: Are people like doubling down?

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Speaker 2: Kind of yeah, people double down, people are getting you know,

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Speaker 2: the people who are left in their beliefs who I

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Speaker 2: thought were maybe getting a little bit more free kind

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Speaker 2: of seem like that's gone away. And like, growing up,

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Speaker 2: I was always taught you're in this one true way

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Speaker 2: people are gonna persecute you, and like to no one.

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Speaker 5: Gave a shit.

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Speaker 2: No one was like like people sometimes were like why

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Speaker 2: are you guys dressed like that?

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Speaker 4: But no one was like stop it. Stop having these meetings.

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Speaker 2: Of truth, Like no one cares about a home based

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Speaker 2: Bible group. And my personal opinion, people are like go

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Speaker 2: off queens, like do.

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Speaker 5: What you want.

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Speaker 2: But as like these systems of abuse start to be revealed,

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Speaker 2: people are obviously going to start persecuting you because it's

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Speaker 2: a felony and you should go to jail.

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Speaker 3: So it's just prosecuting you one night, prosecuting you, one

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Speaker 3: might say.

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Speaker 2: So the cognitive dissonance for people is really high. I

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Speaker 2: totally get it. It is for me as well. It's

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Speaker 2: just all bizarre. This group that has been so secret

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Speaker 2: for so long. Just seeing it in headlines is so bizarre, jarring.

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Speaker 2: It's very uncanny. I don't know how to explain it.

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Speaker 2: So that's my thought of the week. And just you know,

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Speaker 2: I can kind of see playing out in news stages too,

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Speaker 2: and it's.

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Speaker 4: A whole thing.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, that's all I'm going to say today.

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Speaker 6: Lola, that's the cultiest thing that happened to you this week.

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Speaker 3: Kind of similar, well different, different, but similar in that, Uh, are.

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Speaker 6: You going to jail for one hundred and twenty years?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 5: But someone is no, he's going to jail for fifty years.

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Speaker 3: So the person who's going to jail for anyone who

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Speaker 3: has been following is Sam Bateman and Sam Bateman is

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Speaker 3: in jail now because of my mother who went undercover

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Speaker 3: Shadows see doctor Christine. She went on undercover to gather

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Speaker 3: evidence to put him behind bars because he was not

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Speaker 3: only doing the traditional, you know, fundamentalist abusive thing of

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Speaker 3: taking child brides, but he was doing even more horrendous

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Speaker 3: things like in between you know, uh, I don't.

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Speaker 5: I don't even like getting into the details. I think

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Speaker 5: it's too like it'slacious, so horrible. The point is he sucks.

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Speaker 3: He's a horrible person, and he he sucks.

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Speaker 4: Is a little bit of an understatement.

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Speaker 8: Well yeah, I mean yes, but he really really sucks.

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Speaker 8: And I'm actually shocked that he gets fifty I don't

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Speaker 8: know the specifics of the charges, but it's shocking that

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Speaker 8: he gets fifty years for like these actual, like horrific

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Speaker 8: acts that he committed against many people and families, whereas

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Speaker 8: the two by two guy gets triple that for you know,

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Speaker 8: like that's so interesting, Actually it is interesting. But anyway,

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Speaker 8: my mom was at the trial, just everybody's over the

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Speaker 8: moon that this guy's finally like officially behind bars until

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Speaker 8: he dies unless he lives to age one hundred and Yeah,

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Speaker 8: it's just an amazing ending to this like pretty scary story.

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Speaker 3: We'll talk more about it, but if anyone wants to

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Speaker 3: read about it, there is a like Tribune article that

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Speaker 3: gets into all of the details of how and why

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Speaker 3: they first started recording him, how it took a long

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Speaker 3: time to get authorities involved, et cetera. And the headline

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Speaker 3: is a Utah couple that's my mom and my stepdad

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Speaker 3: infiltrated a new polygamous sect and helped put its abusive

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Speaker 3: leader behind bars.

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Speaker 5: So you can go.

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Speaker 3: Read all about that. My mom rules, and she is

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Speaker 3: the ultimate testament to you know, this idea that we

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Speaker 3: talk about all the time, which is that befriending people

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Speaker 3: can be significantly more effective in getting them out of

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Speaker 3: groups than attacking them.

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Speaker 5: We'll talk about it.

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Speaker 2: I'm just such a beautiful example of somebody surviving being

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Speaker 2: in a horrific cult.

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Speaker 6: She's an angel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and she used that experience to help other people

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Speaker 3: by sharing her story with them.

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Speaker 2: It's called yeah yeah, and she's going to be a

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Speaker 2: guest I think soon, right to talk about all this?

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Speaker 6: Yes, okay, beautiful, Well should we talk to Yannie.

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Speaker 5: Let's do it.

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Speaker 3: Can you tell us a little bit about some of

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Speaker 3: the punishments that people experienced.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, So, like I said, there was like the work

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Speaker 7: sanction thing if they felt like you were a danger

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Speaker 7: to yourself or others, which like definitely is quite subjective.

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Speaker 7: You know, like they would put you in this room

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Speaker 7: called like ISO, where like it was like this like

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Speaker 7: six by six, Like I mean, it was like a cell.

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Speaker 7: It was like you know, like a steel door with

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Speaker 7: like three bolt locks on it, and there's like a

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Speaker 7: camera in the corner and there's like nothing in there,

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Speaker 7: and they'd take like your belt and shoelaces and stuff.

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Speaker 6: Did you ever go on there?

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Speaker 7: I only went in there once. I kind of did

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Speaker 7: a pretty good job of like I mean, I definitely

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Speaker 7: got into trouble there. Like I said, I was like

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Speaker 7: on those work sanctions and stuff, but you it actually

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Speaker 7: was usually more in line with like, hey, you're not

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Speaker 7: quote unquote buying into our program because you know, you're

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Speaker 7: not like helling on people or something. But it wasn't

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Speaker 7: like I had very few instances where I was like

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Speaker 7: punching windows or like you know, doing like outward you know,

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Speaker 7: like violent shit or anything.

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Speaker 3: I have to imagine for many of the kids who

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Speaker 3: came there that had sort of already been their pattern,

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Speaker 3: like acting out, yeah, in more outward ways, and I'm

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Speaker 3: guessing those kids experienced a lot more of.

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Speaker 4: That for sure. Yeah, there were, Yeah, there were a

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Speaker 4: lot of kids.

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Speaker 7: And also, like I would say, I was there in

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Speaker 7: an era where it was still they were still doing

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Speaker 7: like pretty fucked up shit, but it was also at

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Speaker 7: an era where it was like transitioning into trying to

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Speaker 7: kind of like they were trying to get some certain.

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Speaker 4: Like specific like state accreditation.

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Speaker 7: And so I remember there were like a few times

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Speaker 7: while I was there where there'd be like people from

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Speaker 7: the state who would come and tour it, and they

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Speaker 7: would be like, all right, everybody, be on your best behavior,

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Speaker 7: like this person from whatever fucking organ like Department of

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Speaker 7: Education is coming. And so they they kind of slowly

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Speaker 7: started to change their approach to certain things where actually

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Speaker 7: and I, I uh, at some point years later, kind

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Speaker 7: of did a lot of research like on the place,

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Speaker 7: and I found these letters that the state had written

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Speaker 7: back to the school kind of giving their critique of

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Speaker 7: you know, what needed to be changed in order to

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Speaker 7: get this accreditation. So anyway, some of the like tactics

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Speaker 7: that they use changed, and that was kind of like

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Speaker 7: just after my time. But there were some things that

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Speaker 7: were like way more over and fucked up before I

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Speaker 7: got there, Like before they had the isolation room, they

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Speaker 7: would like roll you up in a carpet and like

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Speaker 7: duct tape it so you couldn't move, like and just

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Speaker 7: like kind of like leave you in this like closet area.

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Speaker 7: Not like I mean, this doesn't mean it's good, but

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Speaker 7: like not like dark closet you know, with clothes hanging,

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Speaker 7: but just like this like storage room, right, you know.

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Speaker 7: Christ And then the corner was a big one where

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Speaker 7: like they would put you in the corner, which meant

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Speaker 7: that you just had to if if it kind of

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Speaker 7: like the first step of that is you would sit

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Speaker 7: in a chair and face the corner for like all

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Speaker 7: of your meals or all of your activity time, and

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Speaker 7: then during class you would sit and face the regular

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Speaker 7: way just to like do class stuff.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 7: And then if you got into more trouble, then you'd

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Speaker 7: have to do like standing face the corner where you

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Speaker 7: like would have to just stand and face the corner,

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Speaker 7: and then in class you wouldn't face the corner, but

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Speaker 7: you would still stand and yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 4: Stuff like that.

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Speaker 7: If they if they thought you were like a potential

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Speaker 7: like runaway risk, they would you know, put you on.

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Speaker 4: Flip flops, or if they thought that you were.

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Speaker 7: Like flirting a lot or trying to get attention from

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Speaker 7: like whatever sex you were attracted to, they would put

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Speaker 7: you on poverty where you had to like wear sweatpants.

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Speaker 7: And sometimes they'd make you like wear a sign that

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Speaker 7: said like I'm a slutty little flirt or something.

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Speaker 5: I mean that at a slutty little flirt.

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Speaker 3: It's hot.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they'd be like, all right, let everybody see your dick. Bulls.

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Speaker 6: What was the like sleeping arrangements, Like.

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Speaker 7: So each family had uh, you know, boys and girls,

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Speaker 7: but obviously for sleeping arrangements it.

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Speaker 4: Was like separated. Yeah, so you were.

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Speaker 7: In a dorm with guys and it was like bunk

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Speaker 7: beds and uh yeah.

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Speaker 8: Oh.

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Speaker 7: And also if they thought you were a runaway, they'd

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Speaker 7: put you on something called landlock, where they like put

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Speaker 7: two bunk beds together against the wall, so you had

255
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Speaker 7: someone like sleeping right next to you and then like

256
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Speaker 7: right above you, so you like couldn't get out without

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Speaker 7: someone noticing.

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Speaker 5: And the property was like in the middle of nowhere.

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Speaker 7: Oh yeah, middle of nowhere like the closest town and

260
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Speaker 7: this is like a shit whole town. Like this town

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Speaker 7: was fucking like oh man, it was like a shithole town.

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Speaker 7: Was like that town was like seven miles away.

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Speaker 6: Wow.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I read that someone did run away once.

265
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Speaker 7: Oh people ran away, not all the time, but people

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Speaker 7: ran away definitely hardly ever during the winter, you know,

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Speaker 7: I think I.

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Speaker 3: Read the story about a story about someone running away

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Speaker 3: during the winter and razing to death.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: I tried to run away during the winter in the

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Speaker 7: like dumbest fucking way. I like put on I had

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Speaker 7: like a car heart jacket with like a hood and

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Speaker 7: a scarf. And if you there were a few people

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Speaker 7: there that were over eighteen, like by the end of

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Speaker 7: their stay. And so if you were over eighteen, unless

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Speaker 7: you're a court mandated there, you could technically leave whenever

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Speaker 7: you wanted, but usually you were like about to get

279
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Speaker 7: out anyways, and like you know, they might withhold your

280
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Speaker 7: like high school diploma if you like leave early or whatever.

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Speaker 7: So most of the eighteen year olds tend to stay

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Speaker 7: till till the end. And it was called like walking.

283
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Speaker 7: And one day during the winter, I like put on

284
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Speaker 7: the jacket and my scarf and like covered my face

285
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Speaker 7: and stuff and just pretended. I thought I was like

286
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Speaker 7: going to pretend I was like an eighteen year old

287
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Speaker 7: who was just walking. And then they obviously quickly realized

288
00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:16,120
Speaker 7: because they do like a million like roll calls that

289
00:14:16,200 --> 00:14:19,240
Speaker 7: like I was missing, So then they like went and

290
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Speaker 7: got me on the road.

291
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Speaker 5: Shut damn, Yary.

292
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Speaker 6: What made you decide to run away?

293
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Speaker 7: I was like, there were like a few pretty dark

294
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Speaker 7: periods there, but like the first one in particular was

295
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Speaker 7: there when I had been like there like four or

296
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Speaker 7: five months and I was on work sanction, and I

297
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,240
Speaker 7: think I was just like really depressed.

298
00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:43,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, there was something weird with the food, right, was

299
00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:43,440
Speaker 5: that happening?

300
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Speaker 6: When you were there?

301
00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:47,680
Speaker 7: You had to eat everything that they gave you, and

302
00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,600
Speaker 7: the food was pretty gross. Oh and also if you

303
00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:56,000
Speaker 7: if you misbehave, they could put you on like alternative

304
00:14:56,040 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 7: meals where it'd be like like like like porridge in

305
00:15:00,800 --> 00:15:05,080
Speaker 7: the morning and then like soy burgers for like breakfasts

306
00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:07,160
Speaker 7: and lunch. And it was just like that. It was

307
00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 7: very much just like just we need to put something

308
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 7: in your stomach, but you're not going to eat any

309
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Speaker 7: of the quote unquote good stuff, which was fucking disgusting anyway.

310
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Speaker 5: And when you were on work sanction, how long would

311
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:19,960
Speaker 5: that last for you?

312
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,640
Speaker 3: You'd basically just be like by yourself all day, doing

313
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 3: hard labor and not interacting with people.

314
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Speaker 5: Like what was the worst part about it for you?

315
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Speaker 4: Yeah?

316
00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,200
Speaker 7: That was like that was the the It was just

317
00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,520
Speaker 7: while like the ten hour school day was instead just

318
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Speaker 7: like work. And honestly, like I didn't hate the work part.

319
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Speaker 7: It was more just like you're not in school, so

320
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Speaker 7: like if you're on it for too long, Like there

321
00:15:45,480 --> 00:15:48,400
Speaker 7: were kids that had to stay like an extra six

322
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Speaker 7: months because they were they were on Yeah, they weren't graduating,

323
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Speaker 7: and a lot of parents were like, like, I, technically,

324
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Speaker 7: time wise, like should have only been there. I think

325
00:16:00,480 --> 00:16:06,000
Speaker 7: it was like nineteen months or something. No, no, twenty months,

326
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Speaker 7: But I ended up staying twenty six because I would

327
00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:12,040
Speaker 7: have got out in like halfway through senior year. And

328
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,600
Speaker 7: my parents were like, oh, we don't want him going

329
00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,120
Speaker 7: to like a regular high school for six months, like

330
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Speaker 7: that's too like dangerous for him or whatever.

331
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Speaker 5: Oh man, Yeah, was the education decent? Like the class

332
00:16:25,920 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 5: was okay fine?

333
00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:31,960
Speaker 7: Yeah, Actually, like they had really high standards for education,

334
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:35,560
Speaker 7: kind of like they just had high like grade standards,

335
00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:37,120
Speaker 7: so like if you didn't get a C, it was

336
00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 7: actually an F there, so you would have to retake

337
00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:39,720
Speaker 7: the class.

338
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Speaker 6: Damn.

339
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:45,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, who started it? And what was the like mission statement?

340
00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:49,640
Speaker 7: Yeah, so that's actually kind of where it gets into

341
00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,720
Speaker 7: the cultiest part. So the guy that started was this

342
00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:55,840
Speaker 7: guy or named Tony R. Giros. He was like a

343
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,680
Speaker 7: New York guy who had a family. I don't think

344
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:01,880
Speaker 7: he was a drug addict, if I remember correctly. I

345
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 7: think his wife was an alcoholic. And I think he

346
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,720
Speaker 7: was like a pretty bad sex addict or just serial cheater.

347
00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:10,159
Speaker 7: I don't know if he was a sex addict, but

348
00:17:10,200 --> 00:17:13,280
Speaker 7: he was definitely unfaithful to his wife a lot and

349
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,280
Speaker 7: might have had some gambling problems. And I think I

350
00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:18,959
Speaker 7: think it was like, we should try giving our marriage

351
00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,040
Speaker 7: another shot and leave New York. There's like too much

352
00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:26,240
Speaker 7: temptation here. And so they moved to upstate New York

353
00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:31,239
Speaker 7: with their kids and became religious. And I don't think

354
00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:33,240
Speaker 7: they were really doing like AA stuff. I think it

355
00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:35,399
Speaker 7: was more just they kind of became more religious and

356
00:17:35,520 --> 00:17:38,320
Speaker 7: left the city, and I think when they got up there,

357
00:17:38,359 --> 00:17:41,800
Speaker 7: they became even more religious. And then one of their

358
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:46,240
Speaker 7: daughter's friends was having a hard time with addiction stuff,

359
00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:49,800
Speaker 7: and her parents kicked her out of their house and

360
00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:53,760
Speaker 7: they took her in, and then it kind of snowballed

361
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,800
Speaker 7: into being like a few of their kid's friends had

362
00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,399
Speaker 7: that situation happened, and like after a certain period of time,

363
00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 7: they were like, oh, I guess you know, we kind

364
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,400
Speaker 7: of liked taking in these kids and like helping them

365
00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:08,719
Speaker 7: or whatever. And I think at that point it was

366
00:18:08,800 --> 00:18:12,679
Speaker 7: kind of like still like pretty altruistic or whatever, Like

367
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,120
Speaker 7: they weren't making money off of it, and they owned

368
00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 7: this piece of land that the school ended up getting

369
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:20,800
Speaker 7: built on, but at that point it was kind of

370
00:18:20,840 --> 00:18:22,960
Speaker 7: just like a farm where kids would go and they

371
00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,280
Speaker 7: kind of all had chores and would sober up or whatever.

372
00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 7: And then simultaneously they met these people at this like

373
00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:36,439
Speaker 7: commune in like a neighboring town, and they became friends

374
00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,480
Speaker 7: with them, and a lot of like their like ideals

375
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:42,639
Speaker 7: kind of aligned. And anyways, that place was like a

376
00:18:42,680 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 7: full on cult. It was called East Ridge, and like

377
00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:48,280
Speaker 7: the history of that place is kind of crazy. So

378
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,840
Speaker 7: one of the guys that started AA was this guy

379
00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,280
Speaker 7: Bill Wilson, and this guy was a sponsor of Bill

380
00:18:54,320 --> 00:18:59,320
Speaker 7: Wilson's Oh, and Bill Wilson, like AA and Bill Wilson

381
00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:04,080
Speaker 7: were very much like not into religion. And this guy

382
00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:06,040
Speaker 7: was like, there are two problems with AA.

383
00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:07,400
Speaker 4: It's not religious enough.

384
00:19:07,680 --> 00:19:10,640
Speaker 7: And the guy that started it is like fucking way

385
00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:14,640
Speaker 7: too many women. And so he left and started this

386
00:19:14,800 --> 00:19:18,920
Speaker 7: commune and started this other program called Triple A.

387
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:19,919
Speaker 6: Loila's looking it up.

388
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,399
Speaker 3: I feel like this sounds so familiar to me, but okay,

389
00:19:23,640 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 3: keep going.

390
00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:27,199
Speaker 7: Yeah, he was like left and started this commune and

391
00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 7: started this other program called Triple A.

392
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:31,399
Speaker 4: Not the car fucking right.

393
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,800
Speaker 7: He did not become rich, and it was like all

394
00:19:34,880 --> 00:19:37,840
Speaker 7: addicts anonymous, and his idea was like it should be

395
00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:41,399
Speaker 7: religious based, and every person is kind of like in

396
00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,719
Speaker 7: a Christian mindset, like every person is a sinner who needs,

397
00:19:46,320 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 7: you know whatever, some sort of program to make them better.

398
00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:54,000
Speaker 2: So you're the founders of the school are coming into

399
00:19:54,000 --> 00:19:58,160
Speaker 2: contact with this with those deep tricks AA call kind

400
00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:02,919
Speaker 2: of merging it into something that soon gives birth to

401
00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:04,040
Speaker 2: where you ended up.

402
00:20:04,520 --> 00:20:07,399
Speaker 7: Yeah, and that colt actually like fractured at some point

403
00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:11,200
Speaker 7: over like a disagreement over some stuff, and like half

404
00:20:11,240 --> 00:20:14,080
Speaker 7: the people left and they needed jobs, and at that

405
00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:18,080
Speaker 7: time this school was starting, and so those people came

406
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 7: and worked at the school. So like my family leaders

407
00:20:21,320 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 7: were members of that cult prior together.

408
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:29,160
Speaker 6: Oh wow, And so what were they like, I mean, you.

409
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:29,760
Speaker 4: Know, it's weird.

410
00:20:29,800 --> 00:20:32,760
Speaker 7: It's like, I mean, they were fucking tough. Most of

411
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,919
Speaker 7: the family leaders were actually married in real life. They

412
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:39,480
Speaker 7: were very much about like the you know, male female

413
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 7: family system. They were like fully like religious in that way.

414
00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:46,439
Speaker 7: But the woman was this woman named Robin, and she

415
00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,360
Speaker 7: was fucking terrifying. She like had boils all over her

416
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:52,640
Speaker 7: face and she like literally looked like a lizard and

417
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:57,560
Speaker 7: she a lizard, and she was like probably like four

418
00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,760
Speaker 7: feet eleven. But like this bitch was tough. Like she

419
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,240
Speaker 7: was like so tough. Like she would like there'd be

420
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:07,879
Speaker 7: like a kid who would be like, you know, like

421
00:21:08,160 --> 00:21:12,400
Speaker 7: crip affiliated or something from like Staten Island, like punching

422
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:14,480
Speaker 7: a hole in a window, and she would like get

423
00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:16,880
Speaker 7: in this fucking kid's face and like scream at them,

424
00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:21,639
Speaker 7: like she was like the real deal. And then her

425
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,080
Speaker 7: husband was this guy Mike, who was my You also

426
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 7: get a signed a sponsor when you get there, like someone,

427
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:28,760
Speaker 7: so you get to sign a buddy like which is

428
00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,760
Speaker 7: like an older kid, and then a staff member who's

429
00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:33,320
Speaker 7: like a sponsor.

430
00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:34,880
Speaker 6: Just like a normal AA sponsor, like.

431
00:21:35,160 --> 00:21:38,000
Speaker 7: You know, according to you know, in their own weird

432
00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:38,840
Speaker 7: AA yeah.

433
00:21:38,680 --> 00:21:41,399
Speaker 6: Yeah, because they're just like a on steroids at this plant.

434
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 4: Yeah yeah yeah.

435
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,080
Speaker 7: And and he was mine and I really loved him,

436
00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,920
Speaker 7: like I I actually like he was like very much

437
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,240
Speaker 7: like kind of like became someone who was really close

438
00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:56,080
Speaker 7: to me in my life. And then years later, you know,

439
00:21:56,240 --> 00:21:58,119
Speaker 7: I guess I have to say allegedly, I don't know,

440
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:02,119
Speaker 7: but like my best friend from that place, who was

441
00:22:02,160 --> 00:22:05,359
Speaker 7: like total like totally like a brother, like we were

442
00:22:05,560 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 7: very very close, like you know, probably like ten years

443
00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:13,439
Speaker 7: or so after we got out, he like told me

444
00:22:13,560 --> 00:22:17,400
Speaker 7: that this guy Mike had been like sexually abusing him

445
00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,199
Speaker 7: the whole time there, along with like the priests I

446
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:26,720
Speaker 7: was there, so like and actually weirdly at that or

447
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,040
Speaker 7: maybe not weirdly, but at that Cole east Ridge, a

448
00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 7: lot of I think what had caused that place to

449
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,680
Speaker 7: kind of fall apart was because there were a bunch

450
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:39,280
Speaker 7: of like the guy that started Tom, I think his

451
00:22:39,400 --> 00:22:42,919
Speaker 7: son was like a big sexual abuser. One of the

452
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 7: guys that went and worked at the family school impregnated

453
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 7: like an underage woman. Oh no, his son stayed at

454
00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 7: east Ridge and was like sexually abusing a lot of

455
00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 7: the kids there.

456
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 3: So yeah, So was that a widespread thing that was happening.

457
00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 4: I don't know. I never.

458
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,560
Speaker 7: I never, Like that wasn't my experience and I never.

459
00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 7: Definitely didn't know about it when I was there. Also

460
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:12,160
Speaker 7: didn't know about it for a long time till after

461
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 7: I left, and my friend was the first one to

462
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 7: tell me about it, and he had mentioned a few

463
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 7: other kids that had went there that he knew was

464
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 7: also being sexually abused.

465
00:23:22,880 --> 00:23:25,679
Speaker 3: I mean, generally, when there's one kid, it's generally not

466
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:26,120
Speaker 3: one kid.

467
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,320
Speaker 7: I'm sure, Yeah, I just don't know how many like

468
00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 7: staff members were to be doing it.

469
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:40,959
Speaker 3: Right, So I'm curious, like, as you were there and

470
00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 3: having a really shitty time, were you communicating with your

471
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 3: parents at all about what was going on?

472
00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:49,040
Speaker 7: Not really, So, like the first month you're there, you

473
00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 7: can't talk to your family. I think that's kind of

474
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 7: to give you time to kind of realize, like, hey,

475
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:58,359
Speaker 7: this is how this shit goes here, you know, Like,

476
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:00,760
Speaker 7: because I think if you were there like a week,

477
00:24:01,080 --> 00:24:02,760
Speaker 7: you'd probably get on the phone and be like, hey,

478
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:05,359
Speaker 7: this is really fucked up, Like well, you know, and

479
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:06,840
Speaker 7: so I think it's like for you to kind of

480
00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 7: get the message and then and then they have somebody

481
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,840
Speaker 7: listening to your calls, you know, and so like if

482
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:14,720
Speaker 7: you it wouldn't be like one of those things where

483
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,920
Speaker 7: like if I got on the phone and I was like, hey, mom,

484
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,440
Speaker 7: like you know, this place is way worse than you thought.

485
00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 7: They're doing X, Y and Z or whatever, that they

486
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 7: would just like click, hang it up. But it would

487
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 7: be like, all right, tomorrow, you're getting up at the

488
00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 7: table for a table topic and they're gonna fucking like

489
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:32,800
Speaker 7: go off on you. And then of course they're going

490
00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,440
Speaker 7: to tell your parents, Like you know, this is part

491
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 7: of the process for an addict. They're you know, a

492
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 7: manipulator and you know, like he's just not liking that

493
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 7: he's not getting what he wants or whatever.

494
00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:45,000
Speaker 4: You know.

495
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:46,679
Speaker 6: Oh, it's just a perfect system.

496
00:24:46,920 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 3: There's like a network of troubled team I say in

497
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 3: quotes programs that were super super abusive. There was a

498
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: talk about it recently and I'm blinking on the name,

499
00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,119
Speaker 3: but they were saying that like their programs would essentially

500
00:24:59,480 --> 00:25:01,720
Speaker 3: tell their pa parents in advance that their kids were

501
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:04,760
Speaker 3: gonna lie to them, yeah, and like prime the parents

502
00:25:04,800 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 3: to not believe anything the kids say anyway for sure,

503
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,119
Speaker 3: and so like it really just yeah, like what option

504
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 3: do you have.

505
00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:12,160
Speaker 4: It's like a.

506
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 3: Person who's in an institution being like I'm not crazy,

507
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 3: I'm not supposed to be here.

508
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:19,880
Speaker 2: Like it's like them finding out a government conspiracy that's

509
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 2: true and trying to tell people yeah.

510
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

511
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 7: And even when the parents go and like get a

512
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 7: tour or whatever, which most parents do before they send

513
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,320
Speaker 7: their kids there, it's like they have two kids that

514
00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 7: are like about to leave, that are doing really well,

515
00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 7: that are giving the tour, and then when they put

516
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:39,719
Speaker 7: them in the family for lunch to see how table

517
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,959
Speaker 7: topics work, like they're only they're going to be like, okay,

518
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,119
Speaker 7: like this family, it would be a good table topic

519
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,480
Speaker 7: for the parents to see because it'd be something like

520
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 7: more constructive and less like we're going to fucking like

521
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,360
Speaker 7: rip you in front of everybody. Like you know, I've

522
00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 7: definitely seen them be like all right, we're gonna deal

523
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 7: with this serious one tomorrow when like you know, there's

524
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 7: not a tour happening.

525
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 3: You know, did you get like called out much or

526
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 3: because you kept such a low profile table topic.

527
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 7: Oh, I was definitely everybody. There's no escaping table topics.

528
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 7: But yeah, I mean usually most of what I would

529
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 7: get in trouble for was being like flying on They

530
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,080
Speaker 7: would say, flying under the radar.

531
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 4: They said, there's no winning, there's no winning.

532
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 7: And also I would say, like the two things that

533
00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 7: they kind of like really hounded me about was flying

534
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 7: under the radar, and then that woman Robin who was

535
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:42,480
Speaker 7: like that scary tough lizard woman would like get me

536
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 7: up there and say and like just like fucking like

537
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 7: ream me out and just yell at me and say

538
00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 7: that I am the king of self pity. Wow. Yeah,

539
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 7: So yeah, self pity was something that they would hound

540
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 7: me about. I mean, and hindsight, I realized, like it's depression, right.

541
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 3: You know, did it fuck with your sense of self

542
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 3: at all? Like did they get in your head for real?

543
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 4: Totally?

544
00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:11,200
Speaker 5: Yeah?

545
00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,280
Speaker 7: I mean I think at that age, or at least

546
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 7: for me, I didn't. The idea of like sense of

547
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 7: self wasn't something I like, you know, I questioned.

548
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 4: Or thought about. But in hindsight for sure, Yeah.

549
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:28,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I have to imagine if people are

550
00:27:28,359 --> 00:27:30,719
Speaker 3: just telling you you're bad all day. Yeah, and the

551
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 3: whole program sort of centered around punishment and never being

552
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,320
Speaker 3: good enough.

553
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 5: Like that's got a oh totally, especially.

554
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:40,159
Speaker 3: For young young minds who are we're already struggling before

555
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:41,040
Speaker 3: coming here.

556
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:44,359
Speaker 2: The whole thing has like Stockholm syndrome built into the

557
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,679
Speaker 2: DNA where you leave it or like I guess I

558
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 2: was bad and like that place might have kind of

559
00:27:49,400 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 2: helped me.

560
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 7: Like yeah, I mean after I left there, I stayed

561
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:59,159
Speaker 7: sober for like ten years or something, and then I

562
00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 7: ended up relapsing. And I think a big part of

563
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:04,159
Speaker 7: that was, like they like in total, I think I

564
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 7: was sober like twelve years or something and I ended

565
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:12,119
Speaker 7: up relapsing Cuz you know, like my life was really

566
00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 7: good and you know, I was like twelve years sober

567
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 7: and like you know, went back to grad school when

568
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 7: I like was a high school dropout and you know,

569
00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 7: had friends and was in this like six year relationship.

570
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,199
Speaker 7: You know, like in a lot of ways, like I

571
00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 7: think people would objectively look in my life and be like, no,

572
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 7: you're like, you know, I don't know successful quote unquote,

573
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 7: but I just mean, like.

574
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,760
Speaker 4: You are a you know functioning member.

575
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 7: Yeah, you're a functioning person who's like trying to be

576
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 7: a good person and doing you know, good shit, and

577
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,840
Speaker 7: like no matter what, I like just fucking hated myself.

578
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 7: And I think it was like it got to the

579
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 7: point where I was like, I just can't stay sober

580
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 7: any longer if like, you know, all of these areas

581
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 7: of my life get better, but I just like continue

582
00:28:58,800 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 7: to hate myself. Know, like it was it was just

583
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,480
Speaker 7: like no matter what, it wasn't good enough in my head.

584
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 7: I mean like no matter what it wasn't good enough,

585
00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 7: I was always a fuck up.

586
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 4: It was you know.

587
00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 7: It's just and I think almost, if not all of

588
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 7: that came from that place, you know, like that school.

589
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:23,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like you can technically isolate kids from their

590
00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,960
Speaker 3: drugs or alcohol of choice and like technically control their

591
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 3: behavior so it stops. But it's like what's the word

592
00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 3: term when you stop drinking, but you don't have a

593
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 3: community around it.

594
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 4: Yeah.

595
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like if you're not actually providing them tools

596
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 3: and you're just like making them feel bad.

597
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: All the just punishments that are connecting you to any yeah,

598
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: true sense of self.

599
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:47,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like you could tech you could point at

600
00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 3: that and be like, all these kids got sober, It's like,

601
00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 3: well they didn't really have a choice. Yeah, and then

602
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 3: once they were out, they were left on their own

603
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 3: with like suddenly a constant sense of no like no

604
00:29:58,640 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: self worth basically.

605
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,959
Speaker 7: Yeah, and everything was like a punishment. Like it was

606
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 7: like if I did something quote unquote wrong or whatever,

607
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:09,680
Speaker 7: even if the world didn't punish me or like the

608
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 7: constant there weren't like consequences, like I would be punishing me,

609
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:18,520
Speaker 7: you know. So yeah, and that was like I think

610
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 7: all from that place, you know, Like I mean I

611
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 7: would say, like in hindsight, like my parents are two

612
00:30:25,280 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 7: good people. They were never like abusive or anything. They

613
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:30,800
Speaker 7: might not have been the best parents in terms of

614
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 7: like parenting or like having a relationship with me, but

615
00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,720
Speaker 7: I definitely didn't come from like an abusive background before this,

616
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 7: you know.

617
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, that just constant. I mean we see it

618
00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:44,600
Speaker 3: in so many cults and so many religions all the time,

619
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 3: Like when your whole worldview is centered around what you're

620
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 3: doing wrong. Yeah, like that is just not going to

621
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,040
Speaker 3: not have an impact on adults, On fully formed adults

622
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,480
Speaker 3: with fully formed identities and thriving lives like over time.

623
00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 5: It's just like yeah, bucks, you up.

624
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 4: Yeah.

625
00:31:01,640 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 7: And one other thing that I forgot to mention, like that,

626
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 7: have you guys heard of synan On?

627
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:08,840
Speaker 3: Yes, I was going to mention sin On because I

628
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 3: think that's what I was actually thinking of when I said.

629
00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 7: Like a lot of these boarding schools mine included, like

630
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 7: the methods were pretty much taken from Synanon in terms

631
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 7: of like you know, like the reprimanding and the group

632
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 7: humiliation and all of that stuff. Like that's very like

633
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:28,880
Speaker 7: Synanon total tactic.

634
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 5: It's a classic cult tactic.

635
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,400
Speaker 3: I mean like public humiliation in front of the group

636
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,239
Speaker 3: and having like never being good enough and yeah, like

637
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 3: all of these things are.

638
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 5: Pretty pretty and it works perfectly. It does.

639
00:31:43,480 --> 00:31:47,720
Speaker 9: The fucking craziest part, Yeah, it really is just a

640
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 9: perfect system of control.

641
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:50,360
Speaker 3: You want to.

642
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 5: Believe that you're immune to that.

643
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 3: You know that you get in there and you'd be

644
00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: like you'd have the mental fortitude to like withstand it,

645
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 3: but like we fucking don't. Like we're just animal with

646
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 3: their stupid animal brains, and if we people take advantage

647
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 3: of them, they can.

648
00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 7: I love when people say like, oh I can never

649
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 7: get like sucked into a cult, and it's like you

650
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,800
Speaker 7: really don't know. And also I think for a lot

651
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 7: of adults it's probably like timing in terms of like

652
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 7: what is going on in their lives and where they

653
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 7: are emotionally and maybe where they're not or whatever. But

654
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,960
Speaker 7: like as a child, it's like, oh, you're fucking getting

655
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 7: sucked in no matter what, you know what I mean,

656
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 7: even if you don't believe it, like exactly.

657
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 2: That's how like in my cult, I didn't believe it,

658
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: but I was in it. Yeah, I still hated myself

659
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: through the lives of it, even though I was like

660
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:43,480
Speaker 2: this is dumb. Yeah, it's just like a very odd Yeah,

661
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: you can resist the boarding school but still.

662
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 6: Have to be entrenched in the belief system somehow.

663
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 5: It's so weird for sure.

664
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 7: Yeah, even like you know, I'm not trying to say

665
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 7: like all religions bad or something, but even like I

666
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 7: remember I had a you know, a girlfriend friend who

667
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 7: grew up Catholic or whatever, and I think, you know,

668
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 7: one time she was we were having like a conversation

669
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 7: and she was like, you know, like deep down I.

670
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 4: Do feel bad about like there are some.

671
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 7: Negative emotions about having like sex outside of marriage, even

672
00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 7: though she wasn't religious at all, like didn't believe in it.

673
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 7: Oh whatever, Sure, it's just like that ingrain thing.

674
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 5: Yeah that was me post Mormonism.

675
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I like even though Mormons don't believe in hell,

676
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 3: they literally have a different belief system. It's like you

677
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,480
Speaker 3: just go to the lower tier of heaven or whatever,

678
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,960
Speaker 3: but you don't get to chill with your family in heaven.

679
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:44,480
Speaker 4: So I don't want to true.

680
00:33:45,360 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 3: But I still for some reason when I had sex,

681
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 3: was like I'm going to Hell, Like that was where

682
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 3: my head went because it's such a horrible sin in Mormonism,

683
00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,480
Speaker 3: and for years I had such awful bagage aroundite.

684
00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 6: Lola is still soaking? Is that what it's called?

685
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I'm doing it right now. Yeah.

686
00:34:09,239 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 2: I don't know when we should jump to this part,

687
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,279
Speaker 2: but I want to hear about the.

688
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 5: Day you like leave, what that feels like. Are we

689
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 5: ready for that?

690
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 6: Yeah?

691
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,320
Speaker 4: Oh man, that was like the greatest day of my life.

692
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 7: Yeah, graduated, Yeah.

693
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:26,760
Speaker 6: I feel like, what did it?

694
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 7: The first day felt amazing. It's it's actually weird because

695
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,040
Speaker 7: it's hard for me to really remember the first day.

696
00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 7: The first day is kind of what you'd say, it's

697
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 7: like there's a graduation ceremony because you're also graduating from

698
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:44,320
Speaker 7: high school and then you go out to lunch and

699
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 7: all this stuff. And my best friend from there that

700
00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 7: I told you about, he had to stay for another

701
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 7: six months, so you know, like I felt bad for

702
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 7: him and that was sad saying goodbye. And then it

703
00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 7: ended up being that he had a home. Is it

704
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,360
Speaker 7: timed for when I was graduating? So we both like

705
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 7: left campus that same day together and he actually never

706
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 7: went back.

707
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 2: WHOA, But uh, you're like rolling out of the threshold

708
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 2: of that place, Like is it just like scary or.

709
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,200
Speaker 4: Is it first?

710
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:20,560
Speaker 7: It's just like except like there are so many things

711
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 7: that they deem negative there that you can't talk about.

712
00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 4: So all rap music is negative? Oh sorry?

713
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 7: Like literally, like there was no rapper reggae that you

714
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:33,600
Speaker 7: could listen.

715
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:37,480
Speaker 4: To except it's like pot culture or something.

716
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 7: But the only thing that wasn't negative was modest Y

717
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:50,320
Speaker 7: Who because he was white reggae. But yeah, there was

718
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 7: no like rapper reggae. There was no like R rated movies,

719
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 7: and you couldn't even say like you could not say

720
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 7: the name Snoop Dogg for example.

721
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 5: You couldn't say the names. What would happen if you said.

722
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 4: They'd be like that's negative. You have to stop saying that, Like.

723
00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 5: He's going to appear in the mirror behind.

724
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 4: It was literally like so yeah.

725
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 7: That was another thing too, is like by the time

726
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 7: you leave, like culturally, you don't know what's going on,

727
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 7: Like there is a like you leave and you try

728
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,680
Speaker 7: to interact with people, Like I remember I left and

729
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 7: I came back to LA for a visit, like you know,

730
00:36:24,640 --> 00:36:27,719
Speaker 7: like to visit home. I mean before I was going

731
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,240
Speaker 7: to like go to college and in New York City

732
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 7: and I was hanging out with a friend and he

733
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 7: put on Lil Wayne's The Carter Too, and I was

734
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 7: like what is this? And he was like what are

735
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:40,919
Speaker 7: you talking about? And I was like, I've never heard

736
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,960
Speaker 7: this before, like this is good, and he's like this

737
00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:47,120
Speaker 7: is Lil Wayne, dude, like this is the biggest album

738
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 7: in the world. And I was like I didn't, I've

739
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 7: never heard of that. But that was like every that

740
00:36:51,400 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 7: was like culturally kind of everything.

741
00:36:53,360 --> 00:36:56,640
Speaker 5: Did you have internet there with like.

742
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 7: A shitloader really just to like do some schoolwork, like

743
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:03,439
Speaker 7: you couldn't like go on ship, right, So yeah, so.

744
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 2: You're just like dropped back in the world of rap, porn,

745
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 2: the news, everything fresh, freedom, wild.

746
00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:12,560
Speaker 8: Oh.

747
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:17,520
Speaker 7: I just like the first night I like after I left,

748
00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 7: I was like in New York City and I just

749
00:37:20,520 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 7: like walked around by myself and I was like, it

750
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 7: felt like I was like in a dream or something.

751
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,960
Speaker 7: And then the first the thing that I remember clearly though,

752
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:32,160
Speaker 7: is the next day I woke up and I felt

753
00:37:32,160 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 7: really sad that I didn't like wake up in the

754
00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:39,080
Speaker 7: dorm with all of the people, like all my friends social. Yeah,

755
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 7: like I felt I felt very alone, very quickly.

756
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:46,439
Speaker 5: Right damn yeah.

757
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:46,720
Speaker 6: Wow, Go ahead.

758
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I know you kind of already told us

759
00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 3: it took you a few years to unpack what had happened.

760
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,439
Speaker 3: How have you processed it over time? What's your sense

761
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:57,960
Speaker 3: of it now?

762
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,439
Speaker 7: Well, I think first there was no questioning of it,

763
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 7: Like I think I didn't know to question it, and

764
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 7: I did probably would have been like too overwhelming. I

765
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 7: also like had no fucking clue how to like I could,

766
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 7: Like I said, when I left, I continue to stay

767
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,800
Speaker 7: sober for a while, and being an AA was helpful

768
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 7: because it was very different than that. But at least

769
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,920
Speaker 7: there was somewhat of like a common language, like, but

770
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,200
Speaker 7: I had no idea how to interact with like people

771
00:38:28,280 --> 00:38:31,120
Speaker 7: my age that were like, you know, quote unquote normal

772
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 7: people like I. When I went to college immediately after

773
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,120
Speaker 7: and at the school I went to for the first

774
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:43,320
Speaker 7: six months, they you kind of like it's like group

775
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:47,360
Speaker 7: block scheduling and what the the what they try to

776
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,280
Speaker 7: do is kind of keep you in the same classes

777
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 7: with the same like twenty freshmen so that you can

778
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 7: kind of build a network of friends or whatever. And

779
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:57,120
Speaker 7: they would all hang out with each other and I

780
00:38:57,239 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 7: literally like, I don't think. I don't think I said

781
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 7: word to them the whole time. And then I remember

782
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,600
Speaker 7: right before spring break, I was going into a class

783
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:07,399
Speaker 7: and they were all leaving and they were like, hey,

784
00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:08,960
Speaker 7: we're not going to go to class, Like, why don't

785
00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 7: you come hang out with us in Central Park? And

786
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 7: I was like, all right, I guess I probably should

787
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:16,720
Speaker 7: do that. And I got there and I like legitimately

788
00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 7: like I was like I don't know what to say

789
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 7: to these people. And I like texted my AA sponsor

790
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 7: and I was like, Hey, can you call me in

791
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,879
Speaker 7: two minutes? And he called me, and I was so

792
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,400
Speaker 7: far like the idea that I even was pretending to

793
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 7: have a girlfriend was laughable, like my girlfriend, yeah, and

794
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:36,839
Speaker 7: he was like this like forty year old gay dude.

795
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 7: And I was like, I answer the phone. I was like, oh,

796
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:42,399
Speaker 7: hey baby, Oh you're down the street. Yeah, no, I'll

797
00:39:42,440 --> 00:39:44,360
Speaker 7: be there in a second. I was like, sorry, guys,

798
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 7: my girlfriend's call. And then yeah, and then I don't know.

799
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,759
Speaker 7: I I my first girlfriend when I left was a

800
00:39:53,800 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 7: girl that was there with me. Yeah, and U and then.

801
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 4: I don't know.

802
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 7: And then I started to like actually like have some

803
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 7: interests in undergrad and so I started to meet people

804
00:40:07,600 --> 00:40:13,719
Speaker 7: that way. And then my girlfriend, like my long term

805
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 7: like six year relationship, like she wasn't sober when we

806
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 7: started dating, and so like that was kind of the

807
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 7: first time where I was really kind of building relationships

808
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 7: with people that like weren't sober or like hadn't gone

809
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 7: to that school. And mind you, this like three years

810
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 7: after I left, and then it kind of started from there.

811
00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 7: And then like right after we started dating, I like

812
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,520
Speaker 7: started therapy, which I'd always been like very against therapy,

813
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 7: and that was like a very long process. Like I

814
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 7: still see that therapist now like once a month, like

815
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 7: for check ins and if you were to ask her

816
00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 7: like legitimately, like I think almost nothing changed.

817
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 4: For like eight years.

818
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:58,360
Speaker 7: Like we would see each other once a week, and

819
00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,600
Speaker 7: I would just sit there and say almost nothing and

820
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:05,600
Speaker 7: she and at some point in the session, I'd like

821
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 7: break down crying and she wouldn't really know why. I mean,

822
00:41:09,120 --> 00:41:11,560
Speaker 7: she'd know why, but it wouldn't be like and I'm

823
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 7: feeling this and that, Like I couldn't even communicate how

824
00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 7: I was feeling.

825
00:41:15,840 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 4: Whoa Like.

826
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,880
Speaker 7: And then and then my ex broke up with me,

827
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 7: and she was like I can't really do this anymore

828
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 7: because I you know, we'd been we'd been in a

829
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 7: relationship six years, and I don't think I once.

830
00:41:33,360 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 4: Said I feel dot dot dot Like I.

831
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 7: Was like so emotionally shut down. Yeah, and then when

832
00:41:40,719 --> 00:41:43,120
Speaker 7: she broke up with me, that kind of was like

833
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 7: the beginning of the helpful unraveling. Like I relapsed, and

834
00:41:48,840 --> 00:41:51,439
Speaker 7: you know, I was a fucking mess for like two

835
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:54,160
Speaker 7: or three years or whatever, But it was really the

836
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:56,759
Speaker 7: beginning of like, oh, I this is going to like

837
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 7: this is going to be my life till I die

838
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:01,000
Speaker 7: unless I like do something about it.

839
00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 2: Whoa Yeah, Yeah, it's like your body knew that there

840
00:42:07,040 --> 00:42:08,799
Speaker 2: was a lot of trauma, but your mind didn't know

841
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,200
Speaker 2: how to express it.

842
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 6: And that's yeah, that's so sad.

843
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:15,959
Speaker 5: I'm glad that you broke through after all that time

844
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:18,640
Speaker 5: about that.

845
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: But also you said something so interesting that I don't

846
00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 2: want to forget, which is when you like genuinely became

847
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,240
Speaker 2: interested in something, is when you kind of started making friends.

848
00:42:27,640 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: And I always say that in the X two by

849
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: two group because people are like, I don't.

850
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 6: Know how to make friends.

851
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: I don't know, and I'm just I think classes, even

852
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,359
Speaker 2: as an adult, of something you're genuinely passionate about, is

853
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,000
Speaker 2: like the way to make friends.

854
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 5: After all, it's a great tip.

855
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I think also I like luked out, which

856
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 7: is that, like the thing that I was interested in

857
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 7: is by nature like fully collaborative, so like that is

858
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 7: not like doing it by myself.

859
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,000
Speaker 5: Right, he's referring to filmmaking.

860
00:42:54,120 --> 00:42:58,319
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, everybody, that's true.

861
00:42:58,200 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

862
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:02,399
Speaker 3: I'm curious because now obviously we know so much more

863
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:06,759
Speaker 3: about how many people left his program and went on

864
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 3: to die.

865
00:43:09,000 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 5: What do you attribute that to?

866
00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:15,480
Speaker 7: Well, I think, for I think most kids that got

867
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:19,959
Speaker 7: sent there, probably like ninety eight percent had some sort

868
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 7: of like legitimate problems you know, like I don't know

869
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:26,200
Speaker 7: that everybody was like an alcoholic or drug addict, Like

870
00:43:26,760 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 7: some of them might have just been like mental health stuff,

871
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:32,680
Speaker 7: you know, Like I think it was a variety of things.

872
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 7: But I think that the majority of kids there, either

873
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:40,399
Speaker 7: before they got there or after they left, like ended

874
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:45,279
Speaker 7: up becoming alcoholics or drug addicts. And I think because

875
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:49,759
Speaker 7: the school like tried to use AA as like a

876
00:43:49,800 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 7: punishment tool, which is like very different than what AA

877
00:43:54,480 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 7: or like my experience of AA has actually been. I

878
00:43:58,640 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 7: think a lot of them had just this thing that

879
00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 7: they couldn't get past. And I don't think A is

880
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 7: like the only way for like a drug addict or

881
00:44:07,200 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 7: an alcoholic to you know, like change or you know,

882
00:44:12,239 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 7: overcome their addiction or something. But I do think it's

883
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 7: probably the easiest way, Like you know, it's you know,

884
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 7: there's just like a program of action that you do

885
00:44:22,480 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 7: and it's pretty simple, Like it's probably not easy, but

886
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 7: it's like pretty simple, and you have like a community

887
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 7: of people to help you through it or whatever. And

888
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 7: they a lot of them like couldn't get their foot

889
00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:37,879
Speaker 7: in the door because they just couldn't see it as

890
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:43,200
Speaker 7: something separate from that place, and then I think for

891
00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:45,759
Speaker 7: a lot of people just even you know, like I

892
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,040
Speaker 7: have a lot of friends that you know, did go

893
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 7: to AA or were sober for a while, who you

894
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 7: know psychologically, It just was a lot, And one of

895
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,040
Speaker 7: which was my friend who was sober for like a

896
00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 7: number of years and then started and he was like

897
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,799
Speaker 7: a pretty bad junkie and ended up getting sober, and

898
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 7: we knew each other from this school, and he ended

899
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 7: up getting sober again after kind of like a longer

900
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 7: about with like heroin and was sober for a number

901
00:45:15,040 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 7: of years and then he started like microdosing like THHC

902
00:45:19,840 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 7: and really getting into that, but like wasn't drinking or

903
00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 7: doing harder drugs or anything, and like was trying to

904
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 7: write a book on this place and like fully went

905
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 7: crazy and like killed himself. I mean I think he

906
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 7: had I think he had other mental health stuff that

907
00:45:38,719 --> 00:45:41,160
Speaker 7: was unlocked from, like cause I know a lot of

908
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,960
Speaker 7: people that are like predisposed to, you know, to like

909
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:49,960
Speaker 7: mental health disorders like can have that you know, kind

910
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:56,440
Speaker 7: of like exaggerated by using like THHC. But yeah, he

911
00:45:56,520 --> 00:45:59,160
Speaker 7: like fully went off the rails. And it was really

912
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 7: like it was really dark and it was really scary,

913
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,080
Speaker 7: and it was during the pandemic, so you know, everybody

914
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:08,239
Speaker 7: was really isolated. But it was also like when the

915
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:12,320
Speaker 7: whole like George Floyd protests were happening, so we like weirdly,

916
00:46:12,560 --> 00:46:15,000
Speaker 7: you know, and people started to kind of leave their houses,

917
00:46:15,040 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 7: so like we were seeing him kind of often. And

918
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,120
Speaker 7: then he just kind of started like not making He'd

919
00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:25,000
Speaker 7: send us like nonsensical texts or whatever, and he just

920
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 7: like manically would talk about how he's like writing this

921
00:46:27,840 --> 00:46:29,760
Speaker 7: book about this place or whatever.

922
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 4: But yeah, he like killed.

923
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 7: Himself and he had like a deep level of like

924
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 7: self hatred and like a deep like contempt for like

925
00:46:40,680 --> 00:46:45,280
Speaker 7: any sort of like spirituality in aa like totally from

926
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:48,600
Speaker 7: that place, and like he ended up stabbing himself.

927
00:46:48,920 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 4: It was really it was really dark.

928
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 7: Sorry, I mean yeah, but but I think I think,

929
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:56,840
Speaker 7: you know, I think.

930
00:46:56,719 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 4: That place took a lot of tools that probably would.

931
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 7: Help people through things like this and just like twisted

932
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:08,759
Speaker 7: them into these like you know, bludgeoning tools rather than

933
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 7: tools of help or whatever.

934
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:14,280
Speaker 3: Well, and and trauma can increase the risk of addiction

935
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,759
Speaker 3: and uh, you know, mental health struggles as it is,

936
00:47:18,840 --> 00:47:20,839
Speaker 3: so if someone's already coming in with that and then

937
00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 3: they're being rolled into a carpet in a room, you know,

938
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:28,000
Speaker 3: like that's yeah. The New York Times article if anyone's

939
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 3: interested talks about how you know, there were there'd be

940
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 3: people who would like testify and be speaking out against

941
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,080
Speaker 3: how much it messed up them and their friends, and

942
00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:41,120
Speaker 3: then that person later would kill themselves, Like yeah, it

943
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,239
Speaker 3: really it was a real yeah, real dark place, and

944
00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:49,319
Speaker 3: I am sorry that you experienced that, thank you, but

945
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:52,120
Speaker 3: I'm glad you're doing better. And are you in a

946
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:53,520
Speaker 3: healthy relationship now?

947
00:47:54,560 --> 00:47:54,799
Speaker 4: Yeah?

948
00:47:54,800 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 7: I am in a healthy relationship now. Although my girlfriend

949
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,239
Speaker 7: and i'd just gotten a fight the other day and

950
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 7: I was just like not, I like shut down for

951
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 7: a second. She's like, what what's wrong? And I was

952
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 7: like talking, it's just so gross. So yeah, you know,

953
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 7: for the most part, but there are moments where I,

954
00:48:16,120 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 7: you know, fall short. But yeah, yeah, for sure, I

955
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 7: mean the last like since like coming back from that relapse,

956
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 7: like honestly like, yeah, my life's like the best it's

957
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 7: ever been for sure.

958
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 2: Yeah amazing, And you definitely like you still do aa

959
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:36,439
Speaker 2: yeah and I do as well. So yeah, so yeah,

960
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 2: I mean it is.

961
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 6: An important program that I strongly encourage anyone to utilize

962
00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 6: if they want to. It does have that confusing aspect

963
00:48:44,960 --> 00:48:46,520
Speaker 6: where it can be culty.

964
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:47,719
Speaker 4: But it doesn't have to be for sure.

965
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 6: Yeah you know, so yeah.

966
00:48:50,880 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 7: I think like in any group, like you find people

967
00:48:54,040 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 7: like I think I just got better at going to

968
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:00,720
Speaker 7: AA and being like I want to be around that person.

969
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 7: I don't want to be around that person because like

970
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,319
Speaker 7: the first like the first sponsor I really gravitated to

971
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,959
Speaker 7: was like super controlling, and it felt really comfortable because

972
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 7: it was like an extension of that place and in

973
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 7: a really like inappropriate way, like inappropriate even like in the.

974
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 4: Realm of AA.

975
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 7: Like I think if you were to tell most people

976
00:49:22,640 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 7: the way he like quote unquote sponsored, they'd be like

977
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:30,279
Speaker 7: that's fucked up, Like that's crazy. But that was like

978
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 7: what I knew, that was like what I gravitated towards.

979
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,360
Speaker 7: And now I'm just like very clear on like what

980
00:49:36,520 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 7: works for me, what I want, Like I don't like

981
00:49:40,239 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 7: I'm pretty comfortable with who I am to the extent

982
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:45,640
Speaker 7: that i'd be like I'm not fucking doing that.

983
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,560
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, j any words of wisdom for our listeners.

984
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:55,600
Speaker 7: No pressure words of wisdom.

985
00:49:55,840 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 4: I don't know if this words of wisdom.

986
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 7: But I think just like in high insight, I would say,

987
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:04,839
Speaker 7: there's nothing in my life that I look back on

988
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 7: and I'm like, wow, I really wish that didn't happen

989
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:13,600
Speaker 7: to me. Like ultimately, you know, all of these things

990
00:50:13,680 --> 00:50:17,560
Speaker 7: that we experience, you know, have like ultimately led to

991
00:50:18,239 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 7: like being beneficial. You know, it took a long time,

992
00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:24,879
Speaker 7: and it took a lot of like you know, there

993
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 7: was a lot of like progress and then regression and

994
00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 7: all of that stuff. But like in hindsight, I definitely

995
00:50:32,640 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 7: am weirdly kind of quite grateful for all of it.

996
00:50:35,840 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 6: And that's called resilience. And you should listen to.

997
00:50:39,680 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 9: And post Traumatic Grow post Traumatic Crowd, which we also

998
00:50:42,719 --> 00:50:43,600
Speaker 9: have an episode on.

999
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 2: I mean not Amen, yay, amen, Amen.

1000
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,520
Speaker 6: Thank you so much for being a guest. This is

1001
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,320
Speaker 6: such a fascinating conversation.

1002
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, thank you, Yoni.

1003
00:50:56,960 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for having me.

1004
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:01,440
Speaker 5: And that's the end of you. No, oh my goodness,

1005
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:03,120
Speaker 5: that's the end of Yonie.

1006
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 2: It's the end of Yanie's interview. Continue forever, Ayoni, continue forever.

1007
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:12,160
Speaker 4: Amen.

1008
00:51:13,280 --> 00:51:15,400
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm I'm really glad he came on.

1009
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 3: We didn't really talk about it in the interview, but

1010
00:51:17,880 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 3: there are like strange connections to people that we know,

1011
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 3: like it all kind of intersects with Yoni and this

1012
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:26,760
Speaker 3: particular program.

1013
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:30,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, do you have what a final thoughts?

1014
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1015
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:32,240
Speaker 5: Any final thoughts?

1016
00:51:33,000 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 2: Well, I want to land on something you planted out earlier,

1017
00:51:37,520 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: which was that, well you say it okay about the recruitment.

1018
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess one thing that I think is sort

1019
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 3: of an interesting takeaway maybe or maybe not interesting at

1020
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 3: all we'll see about this episode is that you know,

1021
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 3: there there is As we know, many cults recruit from

1022
00:51:55,840 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 3: vulnerable populations, which could mean a variety of things, but

1023
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 3: groups like sen and on scientology recovery programs like this

1024
00:52:05,880 --> 00:52:10,760
Speaker 3: I say programs or recovery in air quotes are recruiting

1025
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:13,880
Speaker 3: from a very particular vulnerable population, which is those who

1026
00:52:13,920 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 3: are struggling with substance use disorders. And I mean, you know,

1027
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 3: as we know, like really anything, cults will really find

1028
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:25,920
Speaker 3: anything to latch onto that might make you feel like

1029
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,280
Speaker 3: you need help or like you need community or something.

1030
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 3: But that's just a particularly insidious one, I feel like,

1031
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 3: because that population is so in need of help, and yeah,

1032
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 3: they're so they're so vulnerable, they need legitimate treatment, they

1033
00:52:41,520 --> 00:52:46,600
Speaker 3: need evidence based treatment and support, and you know, groups

1034
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 3: like that will sort of masquerade as being support and

1035
00:52:50,680 --> 00:52:53,839
Speaker 3: then actually be causing more harm in the end than.

1036
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,439
Speaker 2: Than Absolutely, it's such a good point, and I wish

1037
00:52:57,520 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: there was a better solution built into society.

1038
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:02,880
Speaker 4: We should we shouldn't do that, guys.

1039
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 5: I think about this all the time. I mean, this

1040
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:06,880
Speaker 5: is sort of a tangent, so ignore me.

1041
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 3: But like, there's there's a group called you know, I

1042
00:53:11,360 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 3: became interested in this because of my brother's ventanyl overdose.

1043
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 3: If anyone doesn't know, my brother overdosed on fentanyl and

1044
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:22,320
Speaker 3: he has he has a brain injury now as a result,

1045
00:53:22,560 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 3: and is no longer able to live independently and in like,

1046
00:53:27,320 --> 00:53:30,200
Speaker 3: you know, like learning about that whole world because he

1047
00:53:30,320 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 3: was trying to get into treatment when he overdosed and

1048
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:35,760
Speaker 3: his insurance didn't cover it whatever, whatever, it was awful.

1049
00:53:36,200 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 3: There's an organization called shatter Proof that is working to

1050
00:53:40,000 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 3: have there be standardized evidence based care across rehabs in

1051
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:47,800
Speaker 3: the country, because right now there's no standardized care. So

1052
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:50,200
Speaker 3: people can just buy a place and be like yeah,

1053
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 3: we got yeah horse therapy, and that's literally all they do,

1054
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 3: and then they're sending people in their merry way having

1055
00:53:56,239 --> 00:54:00,319
Speaker 3: spent thirty thousand dollars, you know, like it's we talked

1056
00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:01,959
Speaker 3: about it before, is something I'm passionate about.

1057
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 5: So anyway, there are groups that are working to standardize that. Karen,

1058
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 5: I think it's so so so so so so so

1059
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 5: so important.

1060
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:12,760
Speaker 2: Personally, absolutely, And you know, there's always that vulnerable population

1061
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:17,640
Speaker 2: of people who were in cults from birth are joined

1062
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: one and then they get into substance abuse issues because

1063
00:54:21,719 --> 00:54:22,240
Speaker 2: of the trauma.

1064
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 6: It's just such a delicate web.

1065
00:54:25,239 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 3: So yeah, if you are struggling with the substance use disorder,

1066
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 3: please seek treatment twelve step programs. There are lots of

1067
00:54:33,480 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 3: resources availables. Our producer Steve will drop.

1068
00:54:36,760 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 5: Them into the show notes.

1069
00:54:39,640 --> 00:54:41,839
Speaker 3: And yeah, and I hope you are all going easy

1070
00:54:41,880 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 3: on yourselves this holiday season.

1071
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:49,960
Speaker 2: Absolutely, thank you so much for spending another week with us.

1072
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,800
Speaker 2: We can't wait to see you again next week. And

1073
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:54,480
Speaker 2: as always, remember.

1074
00:54:54,239 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 6: To follow your gut, watch out for red.

1075
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,440
Speaker 5: Flags, and never ever trust me.

1076
00:55:00,280 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 6: Ye trust Me.

1077
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 3: Is produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and Steve Delemator,

1078
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 3: with special thanks to Stacy Para and her theme song

1079
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,480
Speaker 3: was composed by Holly Amber Church. You can find us

1080
00:55:13,520 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 3: on Instagram at trust Me Podcast, Twitter at trust Me

1081
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:20,920
Speaker 3: Cult pod, or on TikTok at trust Me Cult Podcast.

1082
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 5: I'm Oola Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1083
00:55:24,200 --> 00:55:27,799
Speaker 2: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1084
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:28,960
Speaker 2: Hicks on Twitter.

1085
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,439
Speaker 5: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.