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Speaker 1: Please welcome to the Armstrong and Getty Show. One of

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Speaker 1: my heroes. I've never heard his name until about a

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Speaker 1: year or so ago. Peter Began is one of three academics,

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Speaker 1: including UH professor's Helen pluck Rose and James Lindsay, who

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Speaker 1: unleashed some of those brilliantly fraudulent research papers on the

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Speaker 1: academic journals of our land and other lands, got to

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Speaker 1: several of them published, and helped expose some of the

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Speaker 1: ridiculousness of modern academia. UH. The latest twist in the

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Speaker 1: story is that he might be in pretty serious career trouble.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, Peter Began joins us, doctor, how are you, sir?

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Speaker 1: Good you can call me Peter. Thanks so much for

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Speaker 1: having me on. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's it's no problem. In fact, as I said, it

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Speaker 1: really is kind of an honor and a pleasure because

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Speaker 1: uncovering truth is what we're kind of passionate about around here,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes it's convenient for quote unquote our side of things,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes it's not. But if you're gonna be a

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Speaker 1: truth teller, you got to tell the truth. Well, if

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Speaker 1: you're going to be a true tell her you need

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Speaker 1: an environment in which you don't feel threatened to voice

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Speaker 1: your opinion. And increasingly we're seeing universities under the sway

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Speaker 1: of dogma and political correctness and many And I'm saying

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Speaker 1: this is I'm a liberal. Uh So, I just want

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Speaker 1: to make my broad orientation clear. This is not that

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Speaker 1: I'm some conservative who has an ax to grind. And

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Speaker 1: we're seeing libertarian students, conservative students and Christian students and

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Speaker 1: I'm an atheist by the way, afraid to voice their opinion.

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Speaker 1: And nobody is benefited from that. Everybody is harmed by that.

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Speaker 1: How old are you and how long have you been

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Speaker 1: doing what you're doing? Umift two? So you've been around while.

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Speaker 1: Has it changed drastically just in your adult lifetime? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's changed in the last four years. And Jonathan Hight

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Speaker 1: writes about that in this recent book, The Calling of

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Speaker 1: the of the American Mind. It is absolutely changed, and

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Speaker 1: it's deeply concerning for me. I'm deeply concerned about my

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Speaker 1: students education. I'm deeply concerning that, concerned that students don't

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Speaker 1: get to hear and engage the other side of issues.

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Speaker 1: And I'm deeply I'm deeply discouraged and um um afraid

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Speaker 1: might not be the right word, but I'm actually I've

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Speaker 1: passed the point of concern and I'm now in the

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Speaker 1: point of worry about your reversion of trust in our

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Speaker 1: public institutions. Well, I think being afraid would be a

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Speaker 1: perfectly reasonable response if the current trend enforced, you know,

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Speaker 1: with with fists and and and bike locks and firing,

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Speaker 1: is that you arrived to school, to college, university to

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Speaker 1: hear one set of universally agreed upon ideas and no

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Speaker 1: other ideas shall enter here. Is It's bizarre and terrifying.

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Speaker 1: It is, and we we need to create these spaces

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Speaker 1: where people can ask questions without being smeared as a racist,

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Speaker 1: to beg at, a homophold, the Nazi, an all right person.

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Speaker 1: We need to go back to this idea that look,

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Speaker 1: nobody is benefited from the fact that people don't get

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Speaker 1: to hear sincerely held views of conservatives for example, or

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Speaker 1: of Christians for example. Nobody benefits. In fact, everybody is

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Speaker 1: harmed because then they don't develop a response to those

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Speaker 1: ideas and they become brittle. Right, so when they hear

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Speaker 1: an idea that doesn't comport with what they already believe

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Speaker 1: and they've never heard it before, they've only heard one

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Speaker 1: side of the story, one orthodoxy. Then they freak out,

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Speaker 1: they they become offended, they cry, they break down, that

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Speaker 1: they don't engage the arguments, and what you said before,

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Speaker 1: it's too it's like it's become less of truth seeking.

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Speaker 1: And when we did these papers, it's that these folks

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Speaker 1: have placed an agenda before the truth and match the problem. Well.

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Speaker 1: The other part of the problem, of course is at

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Speaker 1: some point to the other side might might gain the

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Speaker 1: power of the day, and then your ideas are not

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Speaker 1: allowed so unquestionably right, Yeah, and you know, I hate

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Speaker 1: to be in a position of explaining what learning is

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Speaker 1: because that's so scary. But the expression of an idea

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Speaker 1: that's wrong is often the best way to illustrate which

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Speaker 1: ideas are right. You don't know what a happy, functional

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Speaker 1: family you have until you see a dysfunctional family. You

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Speaker 1: don't know why liberty is important until you hear somebody

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Speaker 1: advocate for oppression. I mean, I just I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm that I'm glad I don't do it for a

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Speaker 1: living like you do. Be here, I don't know you

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Speaker 1: do opposite the I mean, the corollary to that is,

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Speaker 1: what do we have If we don't have dialogue? We

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Speaker 1: have violence, well, and propaganda. We have propaganda, but we

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Speaker 1: don't have I think, even though you and I might

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Speaker 1: have differences in policy opinion and maybe there's a substantive

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Speaker 1: both of us believe at some point, and this is

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Speaker 1: what makes us capable of engaging in this conversation with

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Speaker 1: each other. We both value what's true. We don't resort

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Speaker 1: to our subjective experiences, and just I don't beat you

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Speaker 1: over the head with that. I present my evidence, you

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Speaker 1: present your evidence, and then we hash that idea out right.

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Speaker 1: That's what we do. That's what responsible adults do in

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Speaker 1: a democracy. I mean, I'm very glad. I'm very glad

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Speaker 1: that you're a liberal atheist, because just like only Nixon

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Speaker 1: could go to China, you know, only another liberal atheist

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Speaker 1: is going to be able to call out universities. Otherwise,

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Speaker 1: if it were me, then it's just so easy to

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Speaker 1: do to dismiss me. Peter Begostian as an assistant professor

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Speaker 1: of philosophy of Portland State University, putting a side effect

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Speaker 1: that in my mind was completely boggled by philosophy and

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Speaker 1: and my poor teacher's time was wasted and trying to

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Speaker 1: cast their pearls before this swine. Um, I understand that

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Speaker 1: now the academia is is lashing back and trying to

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Speaker 1: punish you under rules that are intended to like prevent

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Speaker 1: bizarre medical experiments on subjects. What's going on? So so

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Speaker 1: I've been so first, let me just set it up,

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Speaker 1: so I actually simple, I really do sympathize with the

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Speaker 1: administration situation. I don't know what kind of pressure they're

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Speaker 1: under behind the scenes, but the Portland State University newspapers

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Speaker 1: called The Vanguard, and I think eleven of my colleagues

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Speaker 1: published an anonymous letter. It was basically a smear campaign

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Speaker 1: with a smear photo and that if that's anything to

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Speaker 1: go by, I think they're under some pretty significant pressure

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Speaker 1: by these shadowy figures behind the scenes. So they need

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Speaker 1: to make a difficult decision here, right, So, so they're

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Speaker 1: even going to use their institutional power to support me

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Speaker 1: in the academic pursuit of truth, or they're going to

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Speaker 1: side with the grievance studies bullies and who are pressuring

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Speaker 1: them from behind the scenes. Right, So one charge is

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Speaker 1: I didn't receive I r B support and I've been

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Speaker 1: posting responses online about that, and i r B is

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Speaker 1: called Institutional Review Board and the other charge, and that's

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Speaker 1: a serious charge. The other charge is extremely serious. It's

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Speaker 1: a fabrication of data to charge and that could be

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Speaker 1: the penalties for that to be termination of employment. When

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Speaker 1: your entire point was to to to illustrate how your

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Speaker 1: your discipline and allied disciplines had lost all of their

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Speaker 1: discipline and that they were, well, how would you characterize it?

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Speaker 1: Spreading on truth, uninterested in whether something was true or

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Speaker 1: not enforcing one particular ideology, mix of all of the above,

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Speaker 1: you know, somewhat of a mix of all all of

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Speaker 1: the above. They've placed an agenda before the truth. Their

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Speaker 1: scholarship is corrupt. And again you're right, this is Nixon

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Speaker 1: going to China. This is someone these people are on

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Speaker 1: the far left. I am not in the far left.

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Speaker 1: I'm a classical liberal. So I'm saying, this is someone

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Speaker 1: who shares these basic moral commitments, basic moral commitments. But

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Speaker 1: the way to do that is by not making stuff up.

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Speaker 1: The way to do that is by rigorously examining issues

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Speaker 1: of race, gender, and sexuality. We need to look at

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Speaker 1: those issues in those areas, but we need to do

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Speaker 1: it right. And my hope was, our hope was through

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Speaker 1: this project that we would help these disciplines clean themselves up.

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Speaker 1: I have not seen any indication of that at this time. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that is incredible. I mean, when this this whole thing

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Speaker 1: first hit, I thought, you know, this is really going

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Speaker 1: to change things. They're gonna have to get their acts together.

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Speaker 1: But you have it was so clearly an unmasking. Could

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Speaker 1: could the people looking over these papers and deciding whether

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Speaker 1: to publish them, could they not tell the difference? They

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Speaker 1: can't tell the difference between real and satire because I

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Speaker 1: think that most of us. Yeah, so you know, you're

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Speaker 1: absolutely right. That's the point. It took people outside the system.

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Speaker 1: So when you live in these little ecosystems, every single

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Speaker 1: thing becomes normal. It's all like, oh, yes, of course

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Speaker 1: there's a patriarchy, and of course there's this vast conspiracy.

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Speaker 1: And so for these they couldn't distinguish these absurd papers

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Speaker 1: like fat bodybuilding, or that men should self penetrate anally

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Speaker 1: to to remediate their transphobia. That the dog parks are

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Speaker 1: petri dishes for canine rape culture. You know, so they

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Speaker 1: couldn't differentiate because they're too far down the rabbit hole.

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Speaker 1: But that, you know, that's only one part of the problem.

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Speaker 1: The other problem is that these folks, most of them,

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Speaker 1: most of them have kenure, they have jobs for life.

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Speaker 1: They're using these papers, they're teaching them to our kids,

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Speaker 1: and they're indoctrinating them in this ideology that is totally

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Speaker 1: intell to reality. So they actually believe that stuff they

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Speaker 1: do wow well. And and there are things I believe

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Speaker 1: to my bones that you know, it could be with

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Speaker 1: shock Peter here might shock you Jack. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I keep them to myself, but I'm not going to

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Speaker 1: enforce them with jack booted thugs or run people out

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Speaker 1: of the professional who disagree with me. That's just so.

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Speaker 1: So here's a very important way to think about this problem.

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Speaker 1: So let's say that you have things that you believe,

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Speaker 1: and I have things that I believe in these everybody

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Speaker 1: our brains, as Michael Shermers's our brains or engines of belief.

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Speaker 1: So here's what these folks have done. This is Brett

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Speaker 1: Weinstein's idea. It's called ideal laundering. So they have these ideas,

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Speaker 1: you know, whatever is that their ideas about transphobia, Nazis everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Whatever the idea that these folks happen to have. So

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Speaker 1: they get together and they make a journal and they

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Speaker 1: publish these articles in journals, and it's called idea laundering.

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Speaker 1: An idea goes in on one side and it comes

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Speaker 1: out to the other side as knowledge. So then they

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Speaker 1: pointed to these papers as knowledge and say, look, look here,

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Speaker 1: check see this. I don't need faith like a Christian

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Speaker 1: does to justify my belief. I have pure viewed evidence.

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Speaker 1: I have data, so I can say confidently that I

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Speaker 1: know this. So that's the difference between me and you,

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Speaker 1: and I mean, that's it between us and Them's interesting.

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Speaker 1: But your point then, is that a lot of that fact,

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Speaker 1: a lot of that truth that was published in those

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Speaker 1: publications was well hogwas it was dirty laundry going in. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's totally untended to reality. The whole thing is it's

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Speaker 1: make believe land It boy that that hegel was something,

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Speaker 1: wouldn't he talking with the professor of philosophy. I thought

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Speaker 1: I'd throw that in. I'll be checking the sports pages

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Speaker 1: well YouTube talking about this. Peter Peter Bogan is an

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Speaker 1: assistant professor of philosophy of Portland State University. If you're

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Speaker 1: just tuning in east, one of the trio of academics

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Speaker 1: who so brilliantly and importantly passed off some ridiculous faux

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Speaker 1: research papers is the truth to help expose some of

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Speaker 1: the problems in modern academia. Um, you know, listen, Peter, uh,

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Speaker 1: this this is over the top, and I know it is.

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Speaker 1: But congratulations in finding yourself in roughly the same spot

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Speaker 1: as Copernicus. I mean, for instance, sir, you know, nobody's

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Speaker 1: probably not gonna get burnt at a stake or anything.

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Speaker 1: But welcome to galile Land. I appreciate your support, and

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Speaker 1: I want to say a few things. People are sick

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Speaker 1: and tired of the extremes. You know, there's really a

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Speaker 1: fringe group of leftists and a friend with people on

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Speaker 1: the far right that are preventing us from engaging in

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Speaker 1: any kind of civil dialogue, any kind of productive politics.

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Speaker 1: Now the pond in which I swim in academia that

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Speaker 1: happens to be on the left. So you know, the

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Speaker 1: vast majority of people, they don't like this rampant political correctness.

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Speaker 1: They don't like the fact that we don't we can't

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Speaker 1: talk to each other we can't engage each other, we

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Speaker 1: can't have true seeking conversations. People are sick of it.

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Speaker 1: And so what we need to do is to reach

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Speaker 1: across the aisle so that we can have these conversations.

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Speaker 1: And we have to say that enough. I mean, people

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Speaker 1: have had enough of this stuff, right, Yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: it's funny. We were just talking about Jonathan Height the

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Speaker 1: other day, who said everywhere he goes, every college campus,

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Speaker 1: he asks, do you have that to call out culture

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Speaker 1: here where you're terrified somebody's going to call you out

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Speaker 1: as bad person ruining? Everybody says yes, and then he says,

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Speaker 1: how many of you like that? And there are virtually

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Speaker 1: no hands. You're right. It's fringes controlling the conversation of

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Speaker 1: the day and in vicious fashion. And what we need

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Speaker 1: to do is do we have a couple of minutes,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, fire away. So what we need to do

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Speaker 1: is we need to understand the source of this. You know,

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Speaker 1: where is this coming from? This is coming from these journals,

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Speaker 1: This is coming in these in these journals are then

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Speaker 1: using these papers to teach students, and we're indoctrinating the

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Speaker 1: professors are looking at the education system as an ideology mail,

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Speaker 1: so they are indoctrinating all their students. But for example,

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Speaker 1: the letters from students, academics and high profile and intellectuals

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Speaker 1: that I've gotten, I just can't can't keep up of them.

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Speaker 1: They support the grieving studies, and people are sick and

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Speaker 1: tired of university administrators and the cadre of bullies operating

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Speaker 1: in these disciplines. You need other people, students, the public.

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Speaker 1: We're seeing. Enough is enough. We have had enough of

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Speaker 1: these people, We have had enough of the bullying. It

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Speaker 1: is enough. And now people are putting their names to

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Speaker 1: these letters, so people are not scared anymore to speak

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Speaker 1: out about being called a racist, are a homophope, are

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Speaker 1: a Nazi? We're sick of it. Pere, You're an important person. Yeah, hey, listen,

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Speaker 1: if they if they do the utterly wrong thing and

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Speaker 1: you lose your gig, come stay in my house as

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Speaker 1: long as you need to. And I'm not kidding, and

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Speaker 1: we'll thank you. We'll get through this together. Hey, keep

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Speaker 1: fighting the good fight. Stay in touch, um, and and

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Speaker 1: great to talk to you, Peter. Thanks a million, I

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Speaker 1: appreciate it. Thank go get him man. Wow, how Dan

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Speaker 1: good was that? I'm telling you, I am all fired up.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what to do exactly except keep doing

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Speaker 1: what we've been doing for quite some time, and also

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Speaker 1: tell you support FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Education,

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Speaker 1: which is an incredibly important organization that fights what Peter

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Speaker 1: was talking about. Greg lukianof Associated with Fire was the

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Speaker 1: co author of The Coddling of the American Mind, which

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Speaker 1: is the book that Jonathan Height was referenced in that.

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Speaker 1: In the fact of those people who read those things

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Speaker 1: and said, yeah, well, we'll put this in our journal,

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Speaker 1: they believe it. They're so far out there, they've been

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Speaker 1: doing this so long they actually believe that stuff. And

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Speaker 1: when they found out that somebody tested the utterly corrupt

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Speaker 1: procedures of their world, they wanted to hurt that person,

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Speaker 1: not fix their procedures. Text line four one, five, two,

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Speaker 1: nine five k f TC. You're listening to the Armstrong

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Speaker 1: and Getty shown the conscience of the nation.