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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.

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Speaker 1: My name is Robert Land, and I'm Joe McCormick. Hey,

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Speaker 1: it's still October here on the Stuff to Blow Your

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Speaker 1: Mind podcast. And you may have noticed that we've been

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Speaker 1: talking a good bit about farm animals this month. That

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Speaker 1: was not by design. It just sort of happened that way.

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Speaker 1: But you know, it started with discussing elf shot, which

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Speaker 1: was this folk belief about wounds inflicted off and on

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Speaker 1: cattle and horses by supernatural fairy weapons. Uh. And then

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Speaker 1: we talked about the cattle mutilation panic of the nineteen seventies,

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Speaker 1: and all this talk about livestock actually brought me back

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Speaker 1: to a question I've wondered about in recent years, and

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Speaker 1: I'm glad we're finally getting around to devoting some episodes

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Speaker 1: to it. What is the deal with goats and evil incarnate?

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Speaker 1: Modern audiences will probably think of a particularly awesome bit

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Speaker 1: of goatish devilry from the historical horror film The Witch,

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Speaker 1: directed by Robert Eggers. I don't want to spoil too

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Speaker 1: much for those of you who still haven't seen it.

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Speaker 1: If you haven't it's great, but uh, let's just say

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Speaker 1: the movie overflow with with mega creepy goat stuff a

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Speaker 1: link between goats and demons and Satan himself. And of

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Speaker 1: course this link between goats and demons and occult magic

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Speaker 1: is not original to that film. There appears to be

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Speaker 1: a long running association between goats and beliefs about witchcraft

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Speaker 1: and devil worship, not so much in New England, where

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Speaker 1: that movie is set, but especially in continental Europe, where

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Speaker 1: the goat form was an important part of for one thing,

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Speaker 1: the imagery of Baffa Met, a figure that will definitely

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Speaker 1: come back to in more detail later in this series.

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Speaker 1: But I figured that I think Christians associate aided with

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Speaker 1: evil because it was allegedly worshiped by the Knights Templar

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Speaker 1: and later by other occultists. I think emphasis on allegedly

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Speaker 1: with that square with your understanding, Rob, Oh, yes, yes, definitely,

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Speaker 1: and well we'll touch on that later later then. And

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Speaker 1: then also you can when you start talking about occultists

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Speaker 1: and some of the occult usages of Baffa Met and

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Speaker 1: uh and Baffa met iconology like that breaks down a

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Speaker 1: bit as well, because you get into like, well, what

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Speaker 1: what is worshiped, and what is what is the occult?

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Speaker 1: And you can certainly go down some rabbit holes there

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Speaker 1: as well. But apart from bath met even the goat

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Speaker 1: pops up in all other kinds of continental witchcraft imagery.

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Speaker 1: Some of the greatest examples that come to mind for

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Speaker 1: me are two similar paintings by the Spanish Romantic artist

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Speaker 1: Francisco Goya. The first one is a painting from called

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Speaker 1: Witches Sabbath, which depicts a coven of women gathered in

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Speaker 1: a circle around an upright he goat in the moonlight,

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Speaker 1: and the goats horns are magnificently curled, as if curled

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Speaker 1: by the physical substance of evil, and they're decorated with

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Speaker 1: branches of oak leaf, and his four hoofs are outstretched

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Speaker 1: like the arms of a man kind of like you

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Speaker 1: you might see uh depictions of sleepwalkers with their arms

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Speaker 1: stretched out in front of them, but also almost like

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Speaker 1: a king holding out his hand so that you can

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Speaker 1: kiss his ring. And the women worshiping the goat are

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Speaker 1: offering up children for human sacrifice, and you can see

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Speaker 1: bats circling the moon above. It is an absolutely splendid

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Speaker 1: depiction of malignant magic and terror and I love this painting.

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Speaker 1: This is an interesting painting because, on one hand, yes,

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Speaker 1: it is invoking the the the very fictional idea of

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Speaker 1: of witchcraft and and sacrifice that was, as we've discussed

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Speaker 1: in the show before, is very much a part of

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Speaker 1: the like the campaign against Imagine Choose and played a

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Speaker 1: huge part in witchcraft persecution of very real human beings.

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Speaker 1: On the other hand, this particular image is a lot

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Speaker 1: more chill compared to some of the various woodcuts you

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Speaker 1: see that we're used during the periods of witchcraft persecution

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Speaker 1: and drumming up, you know, fantastic ideas of Satanic worship

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Speaker 1: like this one. Aside from the offering of the children, um,

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Speaker 1: and and even then the offering of the children, it

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Speaker 1: could be you're just holding the child up to better

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Speaker 1: see the great he goes um. Otherwise, you know, folks

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Speaker 1: are just kind of hanging about and here's the goat,

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Speaker 1: and the goat looks not particularly evil but but kind

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Speaker 1: of regal. Well, yeah, I think some of that ambiguity

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Speaker 1: might come down to what this painting was intended for,

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Speaker 1: because I'll get back to that in just a second.

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Speaker 1: After I mentioned there's another painting, um Strangely, this one

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Speaker 1: is often known by the same title The Witches Sabbath,

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Speaker 1: but with the subtitle The Great he Goat or El

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Speaker 1: Grand Cabrone. Uh. This one was finished sometime in the

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Speaker 1: early eighteen twenties, but I think it was not actually

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Speaker 1: intended for public display. I think Goya just did this

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Speaker 1: one like on a wall in his house. But in

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Speaker 1: this one, once again you've got a congregation of which

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Speaker 1: is gazing up at their goat lord in terror and awe.

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Speaker 1: But now the goat is just a dark silhouette in

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Speaker 1: the foreground with horns and a little billy beard, and

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Speaker 1: his body draped in robes like a priest. As brimming

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Speaker 1: with menace, as these paintings are, I think scholars of

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Speaker 1: Goya do not typically understand these artworks as depictions of

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Speaker 1: a literal belief in witchcraft, but more kind of the

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Speaker 1: exact opposite, as satirical works about superstition, human brutality, and

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Speaker 1: about religious persecution. Because Goya was apparently a devotee of

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Speaker 1: the Enlightenment, and I've seen his occult paintings described as

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Speaker 1: a sort of mockery of the witchcraft trial mentality and

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Speaker 1: of the Spanish Inquisition. And the darker side of human

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Speaker 1: nature in general, because Rob, as you just reminded us,

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Speaker 1: of course, a belief in witchcraft and occult magic did

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Speaker 1: lead to terror, oppression, brutality, and human sacrifice, but not

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Speaker 1: so much at the hands of witches. Almost exclusively at

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Speaker 1: the hands of people who thought they were opposing witchcraft

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Speaker 1: in heresy rather than practicing it. Yeah. Yeah, and perhaps

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Speaker 1: reaching for some faint evidence of the divine themselves. Uh.

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Speaker 1: This reminds me of another piece by Goya that I

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Speaker 1: actually actually talked about in a Monster Fact episode at

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Speaker 1: some point in the last year or so. Uh. A

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Speaker 1: seventeen piece titled the translation is here comes the Boogeyman

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Speaker 1: or a coco uh. And it has a robed figure

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Speaker 1: and children. There are these two children held by a

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Speaker 1: mother and the children are screaming in terror, and you know,

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Speaker 1: trying to look away from it, and the mother's gazing

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Speaker 1: up at the boogeyman almost with admiration. Uh. And it's

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Speaker 1: it's a love image that touches on some of these

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Speaker 1: elements you're talking about, because the backstory for this image

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Speaker 1: is not the Boogeyman is real, or it is more like,

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Speaker 1: look at at what parents have done by engaging in

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Speaker 1: this kind of supernatural nonsense, uh, this kind of supernatural

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Speaker 1: terror to control their children. Look at the world they're

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Speaker 1: helping to make through this sort of thing. And yet

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Speaker 1: I think it's funny that despite the clearly ironic intention

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Speaker 1: of these paintings, Goya was a master at creating deliciously

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Speaker 1: frightening monsters, uh and including these these great he goats,

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Speaker 1: including the l Grand Cabrone. So the question for this

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Speaker 1: series of episodes is why, what is the deal with

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Speaker 1: this cultural association primarily stemming from Christian continental Europe between

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Speaker 1: goats and devils or goats and wickedness? And does the

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Speaker 1: thematic harmony of goat and an evil at all relate

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Speaker 1: to the biological features of the goat as an organism. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a great question, because really, if your main relationship

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Speaker 1: with goats is via like goat satanic imagery and bapphamets

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Speaker 1: and uh, you know, you know, heavy metal like an

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Speaker 1: agraphy and so forth, you might say, oh, yeah, goats

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Speaker 1: are scary. But if you've been around goats, either goat

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Speaker 1: farms or various petting zoos, you know it did zoos

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Speaker 1: where children are encouraged to meet the goats and the

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Speaker 1: sheep and to pet them and groom them. You'll quickly

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Speaker 1: realize that in real life, goats aren't really scary at all. Like,

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Speaker 1: generally speaking, the scariest thing about a goat is, well,

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Speaker 1: I might step in poop, or if they're a little

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Speaker 1: revbed up, one might butt me a little bit, or

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Speaker 1: or might nibble like if I have a map hanging

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Speaker 1: out of my pocket or something. Uh, they might try

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Speaker 1: and eat something they're not supposed to. But for the

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Speaker 1: most part, yeah, the goat is is more comical and

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Speaker 1: weird and at least to my eyes, as opposed to

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Speaker 1: anything it is nefarious when you're actually experiencing them firsthand.

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Speaker 1: I actually had a face to face with some goats

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Speaker 1: just a few weeks ago at a at a farm

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Speaker 1: that was attached to a restaurant I went to and

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Speaker 1: the goats were just hanging out by the side of

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Speaker 1: the fence. So I went and uh and communed with

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Speaker 1: them a little bit, and I walked away from that thinking, yeah,

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Speaker 1: goats are kind of cool. They just seemed like chill like,

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Speaker 1: kind of friendly, maybe more more of a sense of

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Speaker 1: awareness from the goats than I've gotten when I've been

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Speaker 1: around like cows, so there's a kind of curiosity or

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Speaker 1: implied intelligence, but also that they were just cool. It's

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Speaker 1: like they wanted to hang out. Yeah, they have a

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Speaker 1: lot of personality I found. I mean, you also find

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Speaker 1: something are totally zoned out in petting zos, like I've been.

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Speaker 1: I've been touched and and and combed and brushed by

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Speaker 1: children so much that I don't even register it anymore,

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Speaker 1: that sort of thing. But but a lot a lot

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Speaker 1: of times, Yeah, they have a lot of love of character,

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Speaker 1: and the babies are quite cute. So uh so, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: in in of life, I find goats to be rather harmless.

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Speaker 1: So I think it's probably good to put some very

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Speaker 1: basic goat biology up front, and then maybe we can

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Speaker 1: come back to more specific goat science questions after we

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Speaker 1: explore more of the goat lore. So the goat for

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Speaker 1: starters there. The goat is one of humanity's oldest domesticated animals,

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Speaker 1: tracing back at least to the fifth millennium b C,

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Speaker 1: perhaps to the region of Turkestan. Goats have spread around

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Speaker 1: the globe with their humans since then, thriving everywhere except Antarctica.

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Speaker 1: We we domesticated the goat we take the goat with us,

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Speaker 1: and the goat tends to do really well in various environments. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the goat is kind of rough and ready. The goat

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Speaker 1: is hardy. Uh So. The scientific name of the domestic

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Speaker 1: goat species is Capra hircus h I, R c U S,

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Speaker 1: with the genus Capra belonging to the bovid subfamily Capra

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Speaker 1: and I, also known as the goat antelopes. So the

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Speaker 1: taxonomy from top down goes like this. You've got the bovids,

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Speaker 1: and the bovids are all cloven, hoofed ruminant mammals. This

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Speaker 1: includes antelopes, cows, bison, buffalo, things like that. And then

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Speaker 1: the bovid subfamily Kaeperni includes an assortment of genera such

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Speaker 1: as musk, ox and sheep, various kinds of four legged

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Speaker 1: mountain critters that you would probably look at and say

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Speaker 1: that's some type of goat. And then of course the

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Speaker 1: genus Capra, which contains the true goats, with Capra haircus

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Speaker 1: the domestic goat. There are hundreds of breeds selected for

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Speaker 1: different traits, but broadly, most domestic goats are raised for

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Speaker 1: one of three things, either milk or meat or skins

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Speaker 1: and fiber for the coat. Uh So, when it comes

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Speaker 1: to fiber, you can think about cashmere Cashmere wool that

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Speaker 1: comes from goat breeds such as the cashmere goat, and

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Speaker 1: mohair as in electric boots and mohair suits, is made

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Speaker 1: from the wool of the angora goat. Confusingly, the wool

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Speaker 1: known as angora does not come from the angora goat,

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Speaker 1: but from rabbits. Goat milk, when especially when made into

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Speaker 1: goat cheese, can be quite amazing. Yeah, it tends to

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Speaker 1: have a friskier flavor than cow milk. Get more of

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Speaker 1: that grass tang in there, I think. But so okay.

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Speaker 1: Humans have been hurting domestic goats for thousands of years,

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Speaker 1: probably going back ten thousand years or so, longer than

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Speaker 1: most other domestic animal species. So how did that happen? Well,

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Speaker 1: domestic goats are mostly from an original wild species known

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Speaker 1: as the bees or goat or capra icagras, though there

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Speaker 1: are a few breeds that are descended from another wild

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Speaker 1: species known as the mark orps or capra falcon eerie.

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Speaker 1: The markhorps is awesome, by the way, and worth returning

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Speaker 1: to later. But I was reading one highly cited paper

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Speaker 1: investigating the evolutionary history of the goat how we got

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Speaker 1: from these wild ancestors to the domestic goat. And this

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Speaker 1: was a paper by Sayed Nadery at All published in

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Speaker 1: Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences in two thousand eight,

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Speaker 1: called the Goat domestication process Inferred from large scale mitochondrial

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Speaker 1: DNA analysis of wild and domestic individuals. So, as we know,

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Speaker 1: one of the most important turning points in the history

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Speaker 1: of the human species, probably the single most important, was

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Speaker 1: the emergence of farming, which includes both plant agriculture and

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Speaker 1: domestication of livestock, and goats were one of these early

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Speaker 1: domesticated farm animals, likely through a process where the wild

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Speaker 1: ancestor of the goat was a prey species tracked and

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Speaker 1: hunted by humans, and then at some point that hunting

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Speaker 1: relationship transitioned into a herding relationship, which, by the way,

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Speaker 1: fascinating to try to imagine the step by step process

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Speaker 1: of how exactly that happens. But these wild goats, the

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Speaker 1: ancestors of domestic goats, were typically a mountain dwelling specie

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Speaker 1: is that lived in relatively harsh and rocky environments and

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Speaker 1: in the woods rather than in just flat, fertile planes

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Speaker 1: full of delicious grass. And this raises an important distinction

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Speaker 1: for for goat biology, which is the grazing versus browsing distinction.

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Speaker 1: So you can think of ruminant mammals like sheep and

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Speaker 1: cattle as grazers. They usually prefer to eat low lying

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Speaker 1: vegetations such as grass, whereas goats typically prefer to browse.

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Speaker 1: So goats don't just put their heads down and eat

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Speaker 1: nice grass. They browse on trees and shrubs, so they

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Speaker 1: prefer to keep their heads raised up instead of down

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Speaker 1: to the earth, and they'll pick it leaves and fruits

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Speaker 1: and buds and twigs from higher up food sources. So

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Speaker 1: at the same time you have a particular environment invites

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Speaker 1: them to graze more or to to to to eat

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Speaker 1: more from lower down. They will do that to their

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Speaker 1: very versatile and that's one of the reasons they and

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Speaker 1: so successful. Oh yeah, they will definitely eat whatever they

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Speaker 1: can get. It's ah, but I think the distinction is

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Speaker 1: that you're not gonna typically find like cows and sheep

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Speaker 1: trying to browse up on variegated, higher, higher up food sources,

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Speaker 1: and goats absolutely will. That's part of their natural repertoire, right,

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Speaker 1: And it's also always amusing, you know, given their their

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Speaker 1: their mountainous ancestry, that anywhere you find goats will often

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Speaker 1: find them a top whatever they can get a top off,

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Speaker 1: be at a rock or a shed, or occasionally the

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Speaker 1: roof of a building, whatever they have access to. Goats

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Speaker 1: goats like to to get a little height so they

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Speaker 1: can see what's going on around them exactly. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: often see the goats up on top of the chicken coop.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, in the study I mentioned, by comparing DNA

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Speaker 1: from modern domestic goats with the modern relatives of their

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Speaker 1: wild and Hester's, this study zeroed in on the the

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Speaker 1: idea that the earliest version of this hurting and domestication

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Speaker 1: relationship and the emergence of the domestic goat probably took

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Speaker 1: place in eastern Anatolia and possibly the northern and central

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Speaker 1: Zagros Mountains, which a mountain range extending from eastern Turkey

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Speaker 1: down through uh Iraq and Iran. And I think it's

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Speaker 1: interesting that some of the traits still visible in domestic

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Speaker 1: goats today can be traced to this evolutionary history we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, especially if you think about uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: goat bodies, goat brains, and goat behavior as adapted to

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Speaker 1: more difficult environments like woods and mountains as opposed to

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Speaker 1: plains full of green grass. Uh. And you can see

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Speaker 1: this represented in some misconceptions about goats that contain a

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Speaker 1: grain of truth. For example, if you watch old cartoons

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Speaker 1: and stuff, and you see a goat in the old cartoon,

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Speaker 1: what's it gonna do. It's gonna eat a tin can, right,

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Speaker 1: no problem, goats just eat tin cans. Well, that's not true. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: this is not real, and you should not feed metal

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Speaker 1: or any other kind of potentially dangerous garbage to a goat.

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Speaker 1: But there is a grain of truth there. It is

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Speaker 1: reflective of the fact that humans have long noticed goat

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Speaker 1: feeding behavior is more curious and adventurous and promiscuous than

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Speaker 1: the typical feeding behavior of some other familiar domestic ungulates

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Speaker 1: like sheep and cows. Yeah, and that's why many of

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Speaker 1: the places you'll find goats in the world, you'll you'll

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Speaker 1: find them often living in otherwise very urban environments, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and not concrete jungles perhaps, but but places

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Speaker 1: where yeah, there's vegetation around there in between this building

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Speaker 1: and that, and the goats can get to it in

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Speaker 1: ways where you probably wouldn't have a cow grazing there. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: being natural browsers who eat leaves of plants that would

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Speaker 1: be poisonous to other animals, wheat fruit and buds and

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Speaker 1: twigs and shoots and sometimes even tree bark, goats will

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Speaker 1: search high up in their environment for potential food sources

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Speaker 1: and will try out all kinds of things. Like other

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Speaker 1: ruminant mammals, goats break down their high fiber diet with

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Speaker 1: the help of a multi chamber digestive system where the

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Speaker 1: four got actually uses bacterial fermentation to break down the

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Speaker 1: rough vegetation and extract the maximum usable energy. So the

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Speaker 1: goats in their foregut they got a chamber in there

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Speaker 1: where they're making sauerkraut out of the leaves and the

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Speaker 1: grass and the twigs. Now we can come back to

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Speaker 1: more discussion of goat biology later, but I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: if we're looking for cultural links between goats and the devil,

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Speaker 1: it might be good to look at the sort of

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Speaker 1: mythic processing of other biological features of the goat and

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Speaker 1: see what other products those features get baked into. So

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Speaker 1: one thing that that screams for attention to me, if

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Speaker 1: you're certainly to anyone who's familiar with Greek and Roman mythology,

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Speaker 1: is going to be the creature known as the satyr

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Speaker 1: or the fawn. Absolutely, and this is this is tremendously

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Speaker 1: important to the discussion of of goat iconography in Western

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Speaker 1: traditions and the classical use of course, uh, the idea

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Speaker 1: of these these goat men uh that are generally human

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Speaker 1: from the from the waist up with some goatish features

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Speaker 1: of the head and then goat like from the waist down.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, there's there's a lot of number of wonderful

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Speaker 1: works of art that have depicted these beings, and they

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Speaker 1: kind of run the gamut, like sometimes the satyr seems

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Speaker 1: kind of serene, you know, playing music in the woods

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Speaker 1: or frolicking in the woods. Other times they have a

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Speaker 1: very um uh, sinister edge to them. Other times they're

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Speaker 1: just you know, being flayed alive that sort of thing,

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Speaker 1: depending on the the artwork in question. There are numerous

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Speaker 1: specific myths and tales about satyrs where the in the end,

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Speaker 1: the satyr suffers a humiliation or punishment or defeat of

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Speaker 1: some kind. They often just like that it doesn't turn

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Speaker 1: out great for them. Yeah, and that the flaying in particular,

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Speaker 1: that's a reference to the flaying of Marcias in which

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Speaker 1: the god Apollo flays this particular satyer. And yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: a it's a grotesque sequence that you'll often see depicted

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Speaker 1: in statues and paintings. So at any rate, yes, when

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the classical Greek goat man, we're talking

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Speaker 1: about the satyr. And this carries over as well into

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Speaker 1: Roman traditions of the fawn. Uh. Carol Rose, the folklore's

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Speaker 1: that often refer to, points out that the original satyrs

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Speaker 1: were depicted as human males with goat legs and horns

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Speaker 1: that represented quote, the fruitfulness of the land. Uh. So,

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Speaker 1: I guess it's one of those things where if you

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Speaker 1: have satyrs frolicking about, if your environment can support satyrs, uh,

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Speaker 1: then everything's every thing is going all right. Like clearly

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Speaker 1: this is an indicator of a of a very robust environment.

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Speaker 1: But the form shifts over time, as mythic bodies tend

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Speaker 1: to do. And at one point she writes, there's a

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Speaker 1: type of satyr that is described as having no nose

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Speaker 1: on its face and breathing instead through a big hole

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Speaker 1: in its chest. Later uh, satyr's take on the form

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Speaker 1: we're more familiar with human faces, pointed ears, horns, and

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Speaker 1: the lower body of a shaggy goat the upper body

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Speaker 1: of a human male. They attend their drunken leaders Silenus,

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Speaker 1: and serve the god of wine, Dionysus or Bacchus. They

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Speaker 1: live in the woods. They chase nymphs around, and they

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Speaker 1: are known for their quote aggressive drunken sexuality, lechery, rudeness,

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Speaker 1: and love of playing pranks. So you know, to humans,

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Speaker 1: there's an unpredictability about the satyr. Uh, there's possibly a

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Speaker 1: danger to the satyr um and they and in this

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Speaker 1: they're also the origin of the words satire. Uh. But

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Speaker 1: but also in all of this, I think they nicely

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Speaker 1: sum up a lot of attitudes towards the wild. Like,

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Speaker 1: the wilderness can be fun, the wilderness can be amusing

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Speaker 1: and serene, but the wilderness can be dangerous and uh.

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Speaker 1: And it may it may care nothing for you at all,

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Speaker 1: It may take interest in you, the interests that you

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Speaker 1: do not want. Now. By the medieval period, Rose writes

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Speaker 1: that they become more of a grotesque hybrid and are

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Speaker 1: often used to represent just pure debauchery and lust, often

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Speaker 1: depicted with erect fallacies to to drive home this point.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time it was also said that, uh,

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Speaker 1: and of course we've've discussed this sort of thing before,

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Speaker 1: where there are accounts of the monsters and strange creatures

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Speaker 1: that live in distant lands. So it was also written that, oh,

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Speaker 1: if you go to Ethiopia, you will actually find satyrs.

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Speaker 1: They're difficult to catch, but they live there. The travel

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Speaker 1: guides of the ancient world were so bad, zero stars.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so yeah, I was reading about satyrs and

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Speaker 1: one thing I noticed is that they were being described

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Speaker 1: in conflicting ways, like it seemed. Sometimes they're described as

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Speaker 1: having these goat like features and other times I read

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Speaker 1: them as having horse like features. So I was trying

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Speaker 1: to make sense of that. Uh, and I found a

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Speaker 1: good reference an Oxford University Press book called Classical Mythology,

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Speaker 1: A Guide to the mythical world the Greeks and Romans,

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Speaker 1: by a scholar named William Hanson. This was published in

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Speaker 1: two thousand five, and according to Hanson, the overriding feature

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Speaker 1: of of satyrs is that they're associated with the countryside.

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Speaker 1: Of course, so you know, the wilderness as opposed to settlements,

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Speaker 1: and that they are hybrid beasts. They are exclusively male,

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Speaker 1: they tend to be hairy, they walk upright on two legs.

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Speaker 1: They've got, as you said, often exaggeratedly large genitalia, and

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Speaker 1: they incorporate some type of be steel features, though early

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Speaker 1: on these teachers are the legs and tail of a

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Speaker 1: horse rather than a goat. That's kind of interesting. Uh

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Speaker 1: So some depictions lean more on the b steal elements

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Speaker 1: and others make them more just kind of like ugly

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Speaker 1: wild humans. But what's the deal with the horse features

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Speaker 1: versus goat so Hansen says that satyrs were originally horsemen

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Speaker 1: who again had the legs and tails of horses, but

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Speaker 1: over time they blend together with depictions of the god

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Speaker 1: Pan who was explicitly and always a goat man. So

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Speaker 1: by the Hellenistic periods that's about the fourth century to

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Speaker 1: the first century b C. After the conquest of Alexander

403
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Speaker 1: the Great, at this point, satyr's are being depicted pretty

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Speaker 1: regularly as goat men instead of horsemen. This horse goat

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Speaker 1: uh split is interesting because we'll we'll come back to

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Speaker 1: this again regarding uh and not not only the goat

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Speaker 1: horse split. But the idea that's some hybrid intoday that

408
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 1: are described in their different folk traditions the goat aspect

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Speaker 1: night shift. Other times it maybe another creature, but sometimes

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Speaker 1: it leans more goat. And I think you can learn

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Speaker 1: things about what these animals mean in people's minds by

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Speaker 1: seeing what kind of animals get swapped out for what.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, so these later pan blended goat satyrs are

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Speaker 1: usually shown hanging out in the countryside, playing the flute,

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Speaker 1: chasing nymphs, dancing, associating with Dionysus, the god of the

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Speaker 1: grape harvest, of fruitfulness and fertility, actually the god of

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Speaker 1: a lot of things, of festivity and drunkenness, uh, and

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Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. In literary traditions, Hansen digs up

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Speaker 1: interesting references to satyrs as being quote worthless and unsuited

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Speaker 1: to work. But another thing that really caught my attention

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Speaker 1: is that satyr's, since they are exclusively male, cannot reproduce

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Speaker 1: to create their own kind, and are only said to

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Speaker 1: be created by the union and of two otherworldly beings

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Speaker 1: such as a god and a nymph, or by the

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Speaker 1: union of a god and a human. And uh, there's

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Speaker 1: an interesting comparison here, I think to other figures that

427
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,399
Speaker 1: are considered demonic in some way. For example, in ancient

428
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 1: Near Eastern literature, I think of stories from early Judaism

429
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:23,239
Speaker 1: about the creation of demonic beings when the sons of

430
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,359
Speaker 1: God come down from heaven and father children with human women.

431
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: The the offspring are often said to be giants or

432
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 1: some kind of evil beings. If you want to read

433
00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:34,960
Speaker 1: more about that, you can look up the tradition of

434
00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: the Nephelim or the story in the Book of First Enoch.

435
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 1: Now I know there's more about satyrs we need to

436
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:45,160
Speaker 1: come back and talk about. But since satyrs were originally

437
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:50,119
Speaker 1: horsemen who became goatmen by merging in tradition with depictions

438
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 1: of the god Pan, what was the deal with Pan?

439
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: Who are? Who were these? Uh? What were these Panned

440
00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:59,560
Speaker 1: illustrations all about? Well? Once again to reference that ou

441
00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: p hand book, but by Hanson. Hansen writes that Pan

442
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,480
Speaker 1: was the god of shepherds and flocks, and he makes

443
00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:11,320
Speaker 1: his home in the wilds of Arcadia. And while you

444
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 1: you'll find a lot of satyrs with horse forms in

445
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: earlier sources, it seems like Pans grounding in the goat

446
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 1: form is rock solid, so to read from the home

447
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: Eric Hymns. The Home Eric Hymns, by the way, are

448
00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:29,119
Speaker 1: an anonymous collection of hymns to various Greek gods, dating

449
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,800
Speaker 1: back to probably the seventh century BC or sometime around then.

450
00:27:34,480 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: This one I found is number nineteen, and when I

451
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,960
Speaker 1: started reading it it was so good I just I

452
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 1: have to like do an actual chunk of the text.

453
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,800
Speaker 1: So this is a hymn to the great God Pan.

454
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: Translated by Hugh G. Evelyn White. The first part of

455
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:53,720
Speaker 1: the hymn goes like this, Muse tell me about Pan,

456
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,239
Speaker 1: the dear son of Hermes, with his goat's feet and

457
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:02,160
Speaker 1: two horns, a lover of Mary, bays through wooded glades.

458
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,840
Speaker 1: He wanders with dancing nymphs, who footed on some sheer

459
00:28:05,960 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: cliff's edge, calling upon Pan, the shepherd god, long haired, unkempt.

460
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: He has every snowy crest and the mountain peaks and

461
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,159
Speaker 1: rocky crests for his domain. Hither and thither he goes

462
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,520
Speaker 1: through the close thickets, now lured by soft streams. And

463
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 1: now he presses on amongst towering crags and climbs up

464
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: to the highest peak that overlooks the flocks. Often he

465
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,000
Speaker 1: courses through the glistening high mountains, and often on the

466
00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:38,760
Speaker 1: shouldered hills he speeds along, slaying wild beasts, this keen

467
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: eyed god. Only at evening, as he returns from the chase,

468
00:28:43,040 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 1: he sounds his note, playing sweet and low on his

469
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 1: pipes of reed. Not even she could excel him in melody.

470
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: That bird who in flower laden spring, pouring forth her

471
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: lament utters honey voiced song amid the leaves at that hour.

472
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: The clear voice nymphs with him and move with nimble feet,

473
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: singing by some spring of dark water, while echo wails

474
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 1: about the mountaintop and the God on this side or

475
00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: on that of the choirs, or at times sliding into

476
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: the midst plies it nimbly with his feet on his back.

477
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: He wears a spotted lynx pelt, and he delights in

478
00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: high pitched songs in a soft meadow where crocuses and

479
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:29,120
Speaker 1: sweet smelling hyacinths bloom at random in the grass. Oh

480
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 1: that's beautiful. And I think one thing that instantly hits

481
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: me about multiple passages in this is it It almost

482
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:44,160
Speaker 1: seems like it's ruminating on the nature of the herdsman, because, uh,

483
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:48,240
Speaker 1: the hunter of course, goes out into the wild and

484
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:54,000
Speaker 1: acts as a predator essentially. Uh. And then when we

485
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: have modern situations of saying highly industrialized farming and and

486
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 1: the rearing of animals did only not with goats, but

487
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: more of it's a cattle. There is the taking of

488
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 1: the animal of the natural world, placing it an unnatural

489
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: situation and treating it more or less like a thing.

490
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: But with the this this this ideal, this older vision

491
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:17,479
Speaker 1: of the herdsman, the herdsman goes out and kind of

492
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: lives like the goat, at least for periods of time.

493
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,480
Speaker 1: Like he. He has to go out with the goats

494
00:30:23,480 --> 00:30:26,080
Speaker 1: to the places the goats want to be. And you

495
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: can imagine this sort of merging of the two, like

496
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: the herdsman and the goat as one. He he is

497
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: a mountain critter. Yeah. And I like the delicate balance

498
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: in this hymn, depicting Pan on one sense as a

499
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: kind of dangerous outsider and earth rim roamer, and the

500
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 1: on the other hand as a as a a soft

501
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: and delicate and uh friendly representative of the of the

502
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: Dewey Glades and the and the song of the Brook. Yeah.

503
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: And I wonder too about the detail about the wearing

504
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,360
Speaker 1: of the spotted lenk pelt. You know, they wears the

505
00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,440
Speaker 1: pelt of the hunter that would otherwise endanger the flock.

506
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: That's that's so many wonderful details in this So the

507
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 1: part I read was just the first half of the Him.

508
00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 1: The second half of the Him tells the story of

509
00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: how Pan was born, and it says that he's the

510
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,840
Speaker 1: offspring of the god Hermes, who in this telling is

511
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:21,480
Speaker 1: a is a Rustic god, a god of again of

512
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 1: the countryside uh and of a human woman. And the

513
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 1: Him says that when Pan was born, he emerged with

514
00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 1: a goat's feet and with two horns, and he was

515
00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: noisy and loved to make mary. And then it says quote,

516
00:31:36,280 --> 00:31:39,719
Speaker 1: but when the nurse saw his uncouth face and full beard,

517
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: she was afraid and sprang up and fled and left

518
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: the child. But despite the terror, he strikes in human hearts.

519
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: Pan is loved by Hermes and the gods. Hermi is

520
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,000
Speaker 1: a big fan of this goat child, and he takes

521
00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 1: him up to Mount Olympus and shows him off to

522
00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 1: the other gods, and the other love him too, especially Dionysus,

523
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: and they name him Pan, which literally means all because

524
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:12,480
Speaker 1: he delighted all of their hearts. So a list of

525
00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: things we have now learned about the god Pan. As

526
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 1: we already established, he's a hairy wild man who has

527
00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 1: goat feed and horns and a beard like a billy goat,

528
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 1: and he's the god of shepherds and flocks. He rules

529
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 1: over the wilderness. Pan is known as a very lusty god,

530
00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: known for exaggerated and constant sexual arousal, and in keeping

531
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: with this, he has power over the fertility of livestock

532
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: such as sheep and goats. But here's another aspect that's

533
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:43,160
Speaker 1: really interesting for our purposes. Did you know that our

534
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: English word panic actually derives from the Greek word panicon

535
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:52,479
Speaker 1: and the cognate there with the god Pan's name is

536
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: not a coincidence. Panicon is said in ancient sources to

537
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: mean relating to Pan. Originally, panic was not a noun.

538
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: There wasn't a panic. Panic was an adjective describing a

539
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: type of fear, often the type of fear that suddenly

540
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: comes over people with no apparent rhyme or reason. And

541
00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: this seems to work on the logic that, since Pan

542
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: was the lord of the wilderness, when a person walks

543
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,040
Speaker 1: alone in the woods or on the mountain side, and

544
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: out of nowhere, they become infected with an irrational anxiety

545
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: and a dread. Maybe they just heard a twig snap

546
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: where they felt a breeze and they get that chill.

547
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: It's like there's something watching me, there's something dangerous out here.

548
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: That was panic con diema or the fright of pan

549
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:46,400
Speaker 1: m That's interesting, Yeah, because if we think back, you know,

550
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 1: for the most part, the woods, the wilderness, this is

551
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: the place where we would feel rational anxiety. Of modern

552
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 1: humans get to pour their irrational anxiety into so many

553
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:04,160
Speaker 1: other things in places for particularly for non seafaring folk. Uh,

554
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: this would be the place. This would be where that

555
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:09,640
Speaker 1: fear would overcome you totally. Now. But that is one

556
00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: type of panic fear. There's another type of panic fear

557
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 1: described in other sources that seems to be more like

558
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 1: the fear that suddenly comes over soldiers on mass draining

559
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: them of courage and causing them to flee the battlefield. Um.

560
00:34:24,480 --> 00:34:26,959
Speaker 1: And this is related to stories that the Greek god

561
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: Pan also had such a booming voice that if he

562
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 1: shouted over the battlefield, it would cause his enemies to

563
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: to freeze in terror and give way to a route.

564
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,920
Speaker 1: But anyway, putting all this together, I think it's really

565
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,360
Speaker 1: interesting how well Pan, the god Pan, and the satyrs

566
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 1: and fawns that were later stamped in his image match

567
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:51,640
Speaker 1: elements of the demons that would preoccupy some in the

568
00:34:51,719 --> 00:34:55,160
Speaker 1: Christian world. So you've got a goat human hybrid with

569
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 1: hair and horns, who is the unholy offspring of the

570
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: union of God and human, who's got an association with

571
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: sinful activity, with lust or lasciviousness, and who strikes panic

572
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 1: into the hearts of fragile mortals like us. Yeah, they

573
00:35:12,000 --> 00:35:14,280
Speaker 1: seems to be a direct line there. But the interesting

574
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: stuff about Satyr's doesn't stop there. Yeah. Now, one thing

575
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: about these these depictions of Satyr's it sounds like, um,

576
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 1: you know, so many of these stories are again it's

577
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,400
Speaker 1: like encountering something something in the wilderness. It might be

578
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 1: of danger to you, it might be of mild interest.

579
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 1: And then we also have this mention of the like

580
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: the Pan origin story of a child born as Satyr

581
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 1: being found frightful and uh and and perhaps ominous, even

582
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 1: if it does seem to be something that delights the gods.

583
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,840
Speaker 1: So I was rather amused when and interested when I

584
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: read this passage from Jorge Lewis Borges book on Fabulous Creatures,

585
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:57,480
Speaker 1: which is totally worth picking up if you have a chance.

586
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 1: But he shares this bit concerning the Roman general Sala,

587
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: who lived one thirty eight through seventy eight BC. Quote.

588
00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: Legend has it that one of these minor deities was

589
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: captured in a cave in Thessaly by the men of

590
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: one of Sola's legions and taken to the general. It

591
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:20,200
Speaker 1: made inarticulate sounds and was so repulsive that Selah immediately

592
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:23,719
Speaker 1: ordered it be returned to its mountain layer. And that

593
00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:27,879
Speaker 1: is from the Book of Imaginary Beings. So I that's

594
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 1: just so fascinating the idea, like here, Selah's troops are out,

595
00:36:31,800 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: they find a satyr or something like a satyr, and

596
00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: they're like, well, we gotta bring this, we gotta pass

597
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 1: this up the chain. Let's bring this to the commander.

598
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 1: And he brings it to him and he's like, oh,

599
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,600
Speaker 1: this is this is horrifying, Uh, please take it away,

600
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,520
Speaker 1: Or at least that sounds like what occurs in my

601
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,720
Speaker 1: reading of this one passage from the Book of Imaginary Beings.

602
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 1: But but it gets more fascinating than that. I was

603
00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 1: reading into this a bit more so. First of all, Freeland,

604
00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: I'm unaware Solo was a powerful Roman general who ultimately

605
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 1: revived the Roman dictatorship. And I found a fabulous discussion

606
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: of this in A Satyr for Midas by Jeans Sorebella

607
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,760
Speaker 1: from two thousand and seven. And apparently this particular incident

608
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:23,480
Speaker 1: involving Sola comes from the writings of Plutarch regarding an

609
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 1: incident said to have occurred near Apollonia in Greece. Quote

610
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,319
Speaker 1: here they say a satyr was caught asleep such an

611
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 1: one as sculptors and painters represent, and brought to Sula,

612
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,640
Speaker 1: where he was asked through many interpreters who he was,

613
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 1: And when at last he uttered nothing intelligible, but with

614
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:46,240
Speaker 1: difficulty a horse cry that was something between the neighing

615
00:37:46,320 --> 00:37:48,840
Speaker 1: of a horse and the bleeding of a goat, Sola

616
00:37:48,960 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: was horrified and ordered him out of his sight. Interesting

617
00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 1: that the nature of the cry could be read as

618
00:37:54,960 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 1: either a horseman or a goat man, given that these

619
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: are the two different traditions of the satyr. Yeah. Now,

620
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,880
Speaker 1: Sabella writes that the tale in question here inserts mythic

621
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: happenings into a straightforward biography, and this may stem from

622
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,839
Speaker 1: Sola's own memoirs, where where it was known that he

623
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 1: he put an emphasis on dreams importance. It may also

624
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: refer to traditions of King Midas and the finding of

625
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:26,160
Speaker 1: a goatman uh here is apparently meant to be a

626
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,840
Speaker 1: portent of victory as Sola returns to Italy, defeating his

627
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:35,600
Speaker 1: enemies ultimately and becoming a dictator of Rome. The finding

628
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: of a sleeping satyr and even holding it temporarily was

629
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: apparently seen as a good portent, despite the depictions of

630
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: horror here upon finding one um uh, and despite the

631
00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,320
Speaker 1: fact that one of the most famous stories of finding

632
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,960
Speaker 1: a satyr that involved in King Midas has a dark

633
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 1: twist to it. So I found that fascinating. It's like,

634
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 1: here is this strange creature we found in the in

635
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 1: the wild that maybe this, you know, half divine entity,

636
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: and it's horrifying to look at, it's horrifying to to

637
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 1: listen to. But it also is a pause. It's not

638
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:10,080
Speaker 1: a dire omen it's not oh well, we're screwed now,

639
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,879
Speaker 1: because look what nature turned up. It's like, no, look

640
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: at this strange marvel. It's horrifying. I think we're gonna

641
00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: have a good day tomorrow, even though he has to

642
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 1: order it out of his sight. Yeah. Now, the myth

643
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,360
Speaker 1: of King Midas, of course, that kicks off with the

644
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: finding of the satyr uh Silenus, and upon returning the

645
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: creature to the god Dionysus, Midas is rewarded with the

646
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,319
Speaker 1: granting of his famous wish right, the result being that

647
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,839
Speaker 1: everything he touches turns to gold, which does not work

648
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 1: out well for him. No, that's also a bad portent. Yeah,

649
00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:54,200
Speaker 1: thank thank now. The later version of the Greek sator

650
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:58,520
Speaker 1: with goat like characteristics is often conflated with a Roman

651
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 1: mythological creature no as the fawn. These are regarded as

652
00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:07,279
Speaker 1: basically the same creature in most ways, and it does

653
00:40:07,320 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: seem like there is a major overlap between the two.

654
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,360
Speaker 1: The fawns get their name from an ancient Italian deity

655
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,839
Speaker 1: called fawn Us, which in turn is similar to Pan,

656
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:20,280
Speaker 1: a god of the countryside who was half man half

657
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: goat in the In the Italian tradition, he's associated with

658
00:40:24,040 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: the wilderness and the sounds echoing through the woods, where

659
00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: you know, the voice of Fawnus and like pan he

660
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: is also associated with the Dionysian side of life, or

661
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:37,920
Speaker 1: I guess in the Roman the bokic, or you might

662
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 1: also just think of it as kind of the I

663
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:44,239
Speaker 1: in a way, like the drive toward hedonistic pleasure and marrymaking.

664
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,799
Speaker 1: Now understanding that a lot of these mythological goat flavored

665
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: beast men were known for representing a kind of inhuman

666
00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:58,719
Speaker 1: pleasure seeking behavior or specifically inhuman sex drive, it's worth

667
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:04,239
Speaker 1: asking is the actually reflective of anything about goats as animals? Yeah,

668
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:07,640
Speaker 1: this is a question that that I had because again,

669
00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 1: I've never raised goats. I haven't lived among goats, but

670
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,960
Speaker 1: I've I've been around them plenty of times, and I

671
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:20,360
Speaker 1: honestly don't remember being in the presence of goat copulation. Uh.

672
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,040
Speaker 1: Certainly there are other animals that I've I've seen in

673
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: various places where that have engaged in such behavior. But

674
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 1: but with the goat, I'm like, well, where does this

675
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: come from? Is the goat actually randier than other domesticated species?

676
00:41:35,600 --> 00:41:37,400
Speaker 1: So and see, that's so I was looking at a

677
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:40,360
Speaker 1: few different sources on this. Uh, you know, because obviously

678
00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,040
Speaker 1: this becomes part of like we've discussed the sader myth,

679
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 1: the idea of pan and and ultimately these ideas of

680
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: Satanic goatmen and and the horned one. But but just

681
00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: for starters. When it comes to animals that actually have

682
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,960
Speaker 1: notably high reproduction or sex rates, goats generally don't make

683
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 1: any of those lists. Generally, the real superstars in this area,

684
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:04,760
Speaker 1: certainly with with mammals, are going to be rodents, various

685
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 1: species of rodents. Some are famous for like essentially rutting

686
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:12,200
Speaker 1: the males anyway, rutting themselves to death. But of course

687
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: we have to remind ourselves that humans have been living

688
00:42:15,239 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: in close proximity to goats for a very long time, uh,

689
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 1: and simply get to observe more of the day to

690
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 1: day goat life. And then of course we tend to

691
00:42:24,440 --> 00:42:27,719
Speaker 1: personify anything animals do as well. Right, I was thinking that,

692
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: I mean, you've got goat herds, not rat herds, so

693
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,280
Speaker 1: you don't you know, people are probably watching the goats

694
00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:36,239
Speaker 1: more than they're watching the rats, right, And of course

695
00:42:36,480 --> 00:42:39,240
Speaker 1: we we have a very long association with the rats

696
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,080
Speaker 1: and mice, but they stick to the shadows the goats

697
00:42:43,160 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 1: do not. The goats have a privileged status within our environment,

698
00:42:48,040 --> 00:42:50,919
Speaker 1: so I decided to look into goat reproduction more and

699
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:55,000
Speaker 1: so this led me to a few different agg science materials,

700
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:59,240
Speaker 1: including one very helpful article from the University of Arkansas

701
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 1: at Pine blow Off by livestock specialist David Fernandez. And

702
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: there's actually quite a bit of variety in the reproductive

703
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: cycles of goats. Again, they've been investigated a very long time.

704
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: You have different lineages of goats, different varieties of goats,

705
00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:18,120
Speaker 1: and many of them are doing their breeding indefinite seasons

706
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:21,160
Speaker 1: such as fall, while others are going to be active

707
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 1: sexually active year round. Latitude, Fernandez says, plays a key

708
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,319
Speaker 1: role in seasonality. But I think this bit from Fernandez

709
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,800
Speaker 1: does give us a bit more to go on regarding

710
00:43:31,800 --> 00:43:34,439
Speaker 1: the randy nature of the he goat, especially in Greek

711
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: and Roman tradition. Quote. Copulation in goats usually last less

712
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: than two minutes, but they will often mate several times

713
00:43:42,160 --> 00:43:45,760
Speaker 1: while the dough is an estrus. Bucks must be carefully

714
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,719
Speaker 1: monitored during the breeding season, especially young bucks, because they

715
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: spend so much of their time mating that they fail

716
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: to eat. Bucks can lose up to twenty five pounds

717
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: over the course of the breeding season. Wow, Okay, this

718
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 1: is starting to make sense. Yeah, so I think we

719
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 1: can well imagine how and why the randy image of

720
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,040
Speaker 1: the he goat might stick in people's minds. Uh. And

721
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:11,839
Speaker 1: and they also have a vested interest in it, all right,

722
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,600
Speaker 1: because you want your goats reproducing, and you are also

723
00:44:15,680 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 1: invested in the health of your he goats. So I

724
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:22,960
Speaker 1: noticed some other animal science papers also referring to goats

725
00:44:22,960 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: as a quote unquote promiscuous species in which male goats

726
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,160
Speaker 1: are trying to make with as many females as possible.

727
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: So again, take all of that combined it with the

728
00:44:32,200 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 1: fact that people were living in close proximity to goats.

729
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,439
Speaker 1: They're seeing this, uh, you know generally like day to day,

730
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 1: if you were out there as a shepherd, I mean,

731
00:44:41,160 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: it's your job to keep track of what the goats

732
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: are doing. And then again, we cannot help but personify

733
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 1: the goat. We can't help but do this with any

734
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: kind of of species, especially when we look at their reproduction. Uh,

735
00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,919
Speaker 1: you know, many of which are engaging in reproductive uh

736
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:59,439
Speaker 1: styles and cycles and relationships that do not translate well

737
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:04,439
Speaker 1: or favorably into the human realm Um. But we can't

738
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,360
Speaker 1: help but look at them as behaving as sort of

739
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: like people, and then using those animals as models for

740
00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: different sorts of people and making often moral judgments based

741
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: on that. One of the profound absurdities of the human

742
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: condition is we're just going to be making moral judgments

743
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 1: about the sex lives of goats. Um. I'd say another

744
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:28,280
Speaker 1: factor that they might be involved in ideas concerning satyrs

745
00:45:28,320 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 1: and fauns is that goats can assume a bipedal posture,

746
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:36,080
Speaker 1: either to reach higher vegetation, to aid in climbing, or

747
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 1: to aid in budding other goats. This is frequently if

748
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:40,760
Speaker 1: you've ever spent some time watching goats, and there, especially

749
00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:45,239
Speaker 1: the younger goats like buck bucking each other, you know, headbutting. Uh.

750
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: They'll often do this thing where they'll sort of rise

751
00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 1: up on their rear legs and then kind of use

752
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,359
Speaker 1: gravity to to to butt at something. But on top

753
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 1: of this they can also balance on their back to

754
00:45:55,520 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 1: legs and move around, which even today makes its way

755
00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: into buy year old goat videos. There's one, I think

756
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,839
Speaker 1: from somewhere in India that I sent you, Joe, because

757
00:46:04,880 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 1: it's just a very short video of what appears to

758
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,319
Speaker 1: be just a goat walking down the street. Briefly on

759
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: its hind legs. Yep, just a straight two leg walking habit.

760
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: Like it's a like it's a you know, evil possessed

761
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: somnambulist basically, But you only have to see that once

762
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,959
Speaker 1: given a like any given community, only one person would

763
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: have to see that once to really sort of get

764
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 1: the momentum going. I think for various other ideas well.

765
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's part of that Uncanny Valley

766
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: principle that like, when you see an animal that's acting

767
00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,960
Speaker 1: kind of human in a surprising way, that gets the

768
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,800
Speaker 1: mind churning about evil magic. And so yeah, seeing a

769
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,360
Speaker 1: goat walk on two legs, you can easily imagine somebody

770
00:46:46,360 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 1: getting freaked out about that. But it's also interesting to

771
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: think about the underlying biological reasoning there. Uh, And I

772
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 1: haven't confirmed this is the reason, but just supposing on

773
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: my part, I think it's reasonable to assume that as

774
00:46:59,640 --> 00:47:04,400
Speaker 1: brow mosers rather than exclusive grazers, goats may well be

775
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,759
Speaker 1: adapted to get back up on those two legs, not

776
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 1: just so they can head bud each other, but just

777
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: so they can reach higher branches, like if they're browsing

778
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: on trees and shrubs, you know they want to pop

779
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,560
Speaker 1: up and forage from something that's a little higher up.

780
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:17,759
Speaker 1: It would be useful for them to be able to

781
00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,279
Speaker 1: balance on back legs for a moment, right, because a

782
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 1: lot of tasty bites you might be able to achieve

783
00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:24,960
Speaker 1: by by climbing up with your your front legs a

784
00:47:24,960 --> 00:47:28,280
Speaker 1: little bit. But sometimes you gotta just you gotta just balance.

785
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: You gotta just go into a bipedal posture and get

786
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:35,440
Speaker 1: up there. Okay, I got another goat biology uncanny Valley

787
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 1: thing I want to explore, because this is a biological

788
00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: characteristic of goats that I could easily see causing people

789
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 1: to look at goats in a sinister light. And it

790
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:51,920
Speaker 1: is that some goats sometimes bleat in a way that

791
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:58,160
Speaker 1: sounds remarkably similar to a human voice, moaning, wailing, or

792
00:47:58,160 --> 00:48:03,040
Speaker 1: even just screaming. This is not an observation original to me.

793
00:48:03,160 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: It is actually the subject of a number of once

794
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 1: again Internet memes and viral video compilations going back nearly

795
00:48:09,200 --> 00:48:12,759
Speaker 1: a decade. Yeah, I mean, goats do sound a little

796
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:16,440
Speaker 1: bit human sometimes. Um, And of course they're not the

797
00:48:16,480 --> 00:48:19,320
Speaker 1: only ones. I just spent a lot of time around

798
00:48:19,360 --> 00:48:23,160
Speaker 1: sea lions in the galapago silence, which will come back

799
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 1: to you later. But I have to mention these creatures

800
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 1: briefly because especially the females in the pups sound very

801
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 1: human at times as well. That can be distracting and

802
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:36,680
Speaker 1: even maybe a little a little uncanny where it either

803
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,920
Speaker 1: sounds like like a human is coughing, or it's that

804
00:48:40,239 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 1: they're warbling trying to speak like they just don't know

805
00:48:42,960 --> 00:48:45,959
Speaker 1: English or whatever your Spanish or whatever your your native

806
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:48,800
Speaker 1: language happens to be, but they're trying to say something,

807
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,440
Speaker 1: perhaps to you. Oh. Absolutely, it is clearly an unsettling

808
00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 1: experience to have a non human animal address you in

809
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:59,759
Speaker 1: tones that sound too close to human. Let's hear a

810
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:12,399
Speaker 1: few those goat screams. Now. A big qualifier is that

811
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: not all goats sound the same, as one could tell

812
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 1: just by listening to the diversity of humanoid groans and

813
00:49:19,520 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 1: yelps heard even within these goat voice supercuts. Goats produce

814
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:27,719
Speaker 1: a wide range of vocalizations, and it is only some

815
00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:31,799
Speaker 1: goats some of the time that can Wilhelm scream. And

816
00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 1: I tried to find a good source with a zoologist

817
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:38,799
Speaker 1: explaining the similar sounds in the cries of anguish and

818
00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: torment that you hear from you know, a goat just

819
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: standing there versus a human and you know, in in

820
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: like the pivotal dramatic scene in the movie. I didn't

821
00:49:49,120 --> 00:49:52,319
Speaker 1: find anything super compelling. One thing I came across was

822
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 1: a article in Slate by Forrest Wickman which addressed this

823
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,080
Speaker 1: question by interviewing a few goat experts, and here were

824
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 1: some of the main takeaways there. First of all, for

825
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,799
Speaker 1: some reason, several of the goat wizards interviewed here did

826
00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:10,120
Speaker 1: not seem to find this subject especially amusing. I don't know.

827
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:15,280
Speaker 1: Another is that some of the animals producing humanoid screams

828
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 1: and these viral videos are not actually goats, A few are,

829
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,200
Speaker 1: you know. A few sheep snuck in there too, so

830
00:50:21,239 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: again not exclusive to goats. So maybe we should be

831
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:28,320
Speaker 1: saying that while some sheep and some goats and maybe

832
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: some sea lions to make these humanoid noises. Um. One

833
00:50:33,320 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: thing that did seem useful to know is that goats

834
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: yell for a number of different reasons. So goat handlers

835
00:50:39,239 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: will tell you that sometimes they yell when they want

836
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 1: to be fed, you know, if they're lining up at

837
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 1: the fence for a meal. Uh, they might scream at

838
00:50:46,680 --> 00:50:50,480
Speaker 1: their caregiver. Mother goats and young goats both yell when

839
00:50:50,520 --> 00:50:54,080
Speaker 1: they become separated. Uh. And then there is a quote

840
00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:58,120
Speaker 1: in this article from Dr Jean Marie Lugan Boule of

841
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 1: North Carolina State University, who specializes in goats, and this

842
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 1: researcher says, quote, in my experience with goats, it does

843
00:51:06,160 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: not take much for them to scream bloody murder as

844
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,480
Speaker 1: if you are torturing them when simply handling them. So

845
00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 1: sometimes goats are kind of dramatic. Now, what you mentioned

846
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 1: about mother goats and young goats yelling when it becomes separated,

847
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 1: that that also reminds me of sea lions a bit,

848
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 1: in that some of the vocalizations that occur with the

849
00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 1: females and with the the young ones are communicative in nature. Yeah, So,

850
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 1: as best I can tell, the primary explanation for the

851
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:39,040
Speaker 1: similarity in the sounds would just be that there are

852
00:51:39,120 --> 00:51:43,399
Speaker 1: some coincidental structural similarities in the vocal production organs of

853
00:51:43,480 --> 00:51:46,960
Speaker 1: humans and goats and apparently some other animals, some sheep

854
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: and some sea lions and stuff. However, I did turn

855
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: up one very interesting goat behavior study that again does

856
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 1: not directly answer this question, but kind of grazes it.

857
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: And the study is by uh Elod F. Briefer and

858
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: Allen gy mcgilliot, published in Animal Behavior in two thousand twelve,

859
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 1: called Social effects on vocal ontogeny in an ungulate, the

860
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: goat Capra hircus. Now, you might notice a stark difference

861
00:52:17,200 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 1: in the range of vocalizations that are available to humans

862
00:52:21,640 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: compared to those that are available to most other animals.

863
00:52:25,000 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 1: Humans have a large degree of what the authors here

864
00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:32,840
Speaker 1: called vocal plasticity, meaning quote the ability of an individual

865
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: to modify its vocalizations according to its environment. So we've

866
00:52:37,560 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 1: got good vocal plasticity. But most animals that are capable

867
00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 1: of producing sounds with their voices actually produce a relatively

868
00:52:45,000 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: constrained repertoire of sounds. But there are a few exceptions

869
00:52:49,040 --> 00:52:52,759
Speaker 1: found among mammals and birds. You can probably easily think

870
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:55,800
Speaker 1: of the birds that have a big range of vocal

871
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:59,520
Speaker 1: modulation and control. Interestingly, some of the mammals with high

872
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 1: vocal plasticity UH include bats and whales. But one kind

873
00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: of unique feature of human vocal plasticity is that it

874
00:53:09,840 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 1: is affected by our social environment. We modify our voices

875
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: and speech to sound like the people around us, especially

876
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:22,680
Speaker 1: the people around us when we're growing up, and this,

877
00:53:22,760 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 1: of course is why people who speak the same language

878
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: but grow up in different regions will end up with

879
00:53:27,840 --> 00:53:32,160
Speaker 1: different accents. The authors argue that prior to their study,

880
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:34,880
Speaker 1: there was no documented evidence of anything like this in

881
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:38,239
Speaker 1: other mammals, but could it be the case that in

882
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: other mammals, especially other mammals that are highly social and

883
00:53:43,040 --> 00:53:47,480
Speaker 1: highly vocal, that they could develop something similar to different

884
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,319
Speaker 1: accents by social grouping. Well. A good example of a

885
00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,680
Speaker 1: non human mammal that is both highly vocal and highly

886
00:53:55,800 --> 00:54:00,880
Speaker 1: social is, in fact, the goat, a shrieking, owning, social

887
00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: herd animal. So the authors proposed to test this out

888
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 1: on kids, meaning young goats. Could the social surroundings of

889
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:12,440
Speaker 1: goats affect the sounds they make and the answer is

890
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,000
Speaker 1: to some extent yes, uh. The authors found a strong

891
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:20,840
Speaker 1: genetic component to voice similarity, so full sibling goats had

892
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: more similar voices than half siblings, but also half siblings

893
00:54:26,080 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: that were raised in the same social group had more

894
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: similar calls to each other than those that were raised

895
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:37,239
Speaker 1: in different groups. Quote the group specific indicators in kid

896
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: vocalizations show that goat call ontogeny is affected by their

897
00:54:41,760 --> 00:54:46,239
Speaker 1: social environment. This suggests that vocal plasticity could be more

898
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,440
Speaker 1: widespread in mammals than previously believed, showing a possible early

899
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:54,520
Speaker 1: pathway in the evolution of vocal learning leading to human language.

900
00:54:55,000 --> 00:54:59,680
Speaker 1: So factors determining the sounds produced by young goats are

901
00:55:00,040 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 1: strongly influenced by genetics, but surprisingly also influenced by the

902
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,480
Speaker 1: social environment, what other goats there around, And so you

903
00:55:08,520 --> 00:55:11,440
Speaker 1: could view this as analogous in a way to goats

904
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:16,359
Speaker 1: developing different accents based on their their their groups. Uh. Now,

905
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 1: I want to be a hundred percent clear. There is

906
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: no evidence I've read whatsoever that this vocal plasticity would

907
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: extend to domestic goats adapting their voices to sound like humans,

908
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:31,760
Speaker 1: like they're human farmers and herders. But I guess it's

909
00:55:31,800 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 1: an interesting possibility to wonder about goat experts right in

910
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: Is this crazy idea possible that I don't know? If

911
00:55:38,600 --> 00:55:41,480
Speaker 1: goats spend around enough time around humans, is it possible

912
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: that they could slightly adapt in a human vocal direction

913
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: or is that absurdity? I don't know. Even without getting

914
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:50,200
Speaker 1: into that though, just the mere idea that you're in

915
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:55,640
Speaker 1: close proximity with these social mammals that communicated to some

916
00:55:55,719 --> 00:56:00,480
Speaker 1: degree through vocalizations and and and have different vocal positions

917
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 1: that they're utilizing. That's enough to sort of bridge that

918
00:56:04,640 --> 00:56:08,759
Speaker 1: uncanny gap between us and them and to allow room

919
00:56:08,920 --> 00:56:12,399
Speaker 1: for folklore to emerge between the two. I mean, it's

920
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,799
Speaker 1: one of the things that makes goats interesting. It's I mean,

921
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 1: it's one of the things that makes sea lions interesting

922
00:56:16,640 --> 00:56:19,879
Speaker 1: as well, like because there you watch these animals and

923
00:56:20,080 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: they're engaging in social behaviors that are different, very different

924
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 1: from human behaviors, but also not so different that we

925
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:33,160
Speaker 1: can't anthropomorphize them. And then they're using their voices to

926
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:36,960
Speaker 1: some degree. So even even if ancient people especially we're

927
00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:39,839
Speaker 1: not privy to all the you know, the bullet points

928
00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:42,120
Speaker 1: that we've laid out in these studies here, they would

929
00:56:42,160 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 1: have picked up on the fact that that something is occurring,

930
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:49,719
Speaker 1: that there's some sort of communicative relationship going on, and

931
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: that there's the goats are raising a goaty mirror to

932
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: our own way of life. Well said, I think we

933
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:02,279
Speaker 1: have to cut go it's part one right there, so

934
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:04,359
Speaker 1: we'll we'll come back in the next episode to talk

935
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: about goats in the Hebrew Bible and in Christian traditions,

936
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,440
Speaker 1: goats and other myths and traditions from all around the world.

937
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:15,640
Speaker 1: Some more fascinating goat science. It's going to be a blast, absolutely,

938
00:57:15,719 --> 00:57:18,480
Speaker 1: so join us for the next goat episode. Uh yeah,

939
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a lot of fun. There's gonna be

940
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: some more creepy stuff in there, but also some uh

941
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,800
Speaker 1: some some some of the ideas are gonna be looking at,

942
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 1: are gonna be go less demonic and more divine. So yeah,

943
00:57:31,240 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 1: there's a little something in there for everybody. In the meantime,

944
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,160
Speaker 1: of course, you can find all the episodes of Stuff

945
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: to Blow Your Mind in the Stuff to Blow your

946
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,640
Speaker 1: Mind podcast feed. We have core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays.

947
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: Mondays we do listener mail, on Wednesdays we do a

948
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,240
Speaker 1: short form artifact or monster fact. And on Fridays do

949
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: we do Weird House Cinema. That's our time to set

950
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 1: aside most serious concerns and just talk about a strange film,

951
00:57:53,000 --> 00:57:56,120
Speaker 1: huge things. As always to our excellent audio producer Seth

952
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:58,880
Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch

953
00:57:58,920 --> 00:58:01,240
Speaker 1: with us with feedback in this episode or any other,

954
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,480
Speaker 1: to suggest a topic for the future, or just to

955
00:58:03,520 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: say hello. You can email us at contact at stuff

956
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:16,240
Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your

957
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:19,200
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958
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:22,360
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959
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:36,080
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