1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 1: the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much 3 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: for tuning in. Let's hear it for the man the myth, 4 00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: the guy who has never actually given out a curse. 5 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: Super producer mister Max Williams. 6 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:43,680 Speaker 2: Max claps with two hands. Williams, Welcome back to. 7 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:46,600 Speaker 3: The clap Max, I have a secondhand again, and Ben, 8 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:48,760 Speaker 3: no curse is given out that you know of? 9 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 2: Yeah, right, right, Well, is a curse really a curse 10 00:00:52,200 --> 00:00:54,800 Speaker 2: if you don't know about it? That's a question. Aren't 11 00:00:54,840 --> 00:00:57,520 Speaker 2: you supposed to, like actively say to somebody, I have 12 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 2: cursed you. You're therefore you don't have to. But I 13 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 2: guess one thing about curses is, you know, there's the 14 00:01:03,120 --> 00:01:06,760 Speaker 2: placebo effect of it, all right, if somebody tells you 15 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 2: you've been cursed, then you get in your head about 16 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:12,759 Speaker 2: it and manifest the curse yourself without maybe they're even 17 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 2: having to be any nefarious dark forces at work at all. 18 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the thing a curse does have. You know, 19 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:25,119 Speaker 1: the best definition of magic I've ever seen is weaponized psychology. 20 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: And in that case, then a curse would work. If 21 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 1: we were to say I Ben Bullen, curse you Noel Brown. 22 00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: Through that kind of lens of psychology, then the person 23 00:01:38,280 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 1: being cursed would have to know about it for it 24 00:01:41,000 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: to have some sort of effect. But if we take 25 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: the psychology out, if we say we just believe in curses, 26 00:01:46,720 --> 00:01:52,080 Speaker 1: then the person who is cursed or has the consequences 27 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:54,320 Speaker 1: doesn't have to know what's going on at all. They 28 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 1: could be totally innocent. They just walked into the wrong tomb. 29 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 2: I recently started rewatching Rome, the HBO series. You know 30 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 2: about Julius Caesar and all of that, And there is 31 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 2: a part in the series where Julius Caesar scorns a 32 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 2: female admirer. Essentially, there's a political thing that's caused it 33 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,760 Speaker 2: to be inconvenient having this relationship, so he basically sends 34 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: her a packing and then there's a really intense scene 35 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:25,720 Speaker 2: where she curses him like in writing, like while saying 36 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 2: out loud, I curse your liver, your blood, your bones, 37 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: your body. And then you know, has her hand servant 38 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 2: take this cursed piece of paper and put it in 39 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 2: some kind of special depository. But Julius Caesar does not 40 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:41,600 Speaker 2: need to know about it. And as far as this 41 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: character is concerned the curse? Sure has hell worked? Because 42 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 2: you know, really bad things happened to Julius Caesar. Was 43 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,160 Speaker 2: it because of the curse? Unclear? 44 00:02:50,440 --> 00:02:53,640 Speaker 1: This this reminds me of Gladiator, which has been on 45 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:57,000 Speaker 1: my mind because I recently on the road, I have 46 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,280 Speaker 1: too much time to watch a lot of TV. But 47 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: on the room I watched Napoleon, and. 48 00:03:03,400 --> 00:03:05,679 Speaker 2: What do you think? I did not like it? 49 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: Okay, only because only because it was very clear to 50 00:03:10,240 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 1: me that this is Yo King Phoenix playing Napoleon. Sure, 51 00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: so that's it. Didn't it didn't feel like I love 52 00:03:19,480 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: that guy's an actor. I just I don't know. The 53 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: battle scenes were good, but the the historical inaccuracies pile 54 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:28,280 Speaker 1: up over time. 55 00:03:28,320 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 2: But who are we to knock it? 56 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:33,080 Speaker 1: There are stories about Napoleon and curses too, and that 57 00:03:33,160 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: time he got totally punked. 58 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:36,200 Speaker 2: By a pack of rabbits. 59 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: But today I love that story. I mean too, I 60 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:42,320 Speaker 1: was thinking I was talking about that with some French folks. 61 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: I got in an argument about Napoleon in Paris and 62 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: it ended well because of the rabbits. But anyway, so 63 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:52,720 Speaker 1: we are talking about curses today. We're going to talk 64 00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:56,800 Speaker 1: about a curse that You may have heard, fellow ridiculous historians, 65 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: but you may not know much about it. Like many 66 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,760 Speaker 1: of us us who attended public school, you may have 67 00:04:02,840 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: simply heard the name to Cumsa's curse and never really 68 00:04:07,640 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: understood where it came from, it was a real thing, etc. 69 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: And it all goes back to the fact that the 70 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:20,680 Speaker 1: president of the United States throughout history and especially now 71 00:04:21,320 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: is one of the most important, one of the most 72 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 1: powerful people in the world. That means a lot of 73 00:04:26,120 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: folks love you, but that also means a lot of 74 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 1: people hate your guts. 75 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 2: Just on principle. Yeah. Max points out that due to 76 00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:38,159 Speaker 2: a very small sample size, relatively small speaking, forty six 77 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 2: people to have held the job, eight of those individuals 78 00:04:41,760 --> 00:04:45,560 Speaker 2: have died while in office, and one might argue that 79 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:50,799 Speaker 2: those odds are pretty significant in favor of dying in office. 80 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:55,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, podcasters have a slightly safer ratio. We could say, 81 00:04:55,680 --> 00:05:00,240 Speaker 1: only slightly, only slightly. It's hard in these streets, but yeah, 82 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: I always think about that too. You know, the tremendous 83 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 1: level of stress that the potus has. 84 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 2: It's it's sad, it's to a degree, it's. 85 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 1: Kind of heartbreaking when you can see how being president 86 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 1: for just four years absolutely wrecks your body. 87 00:05:16,040 --> 00:05:18,760 Speaker 2: You know, before and after pictures, saying it reminds me 88 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: of a lot of those history accounts. So you'll see 89 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 2: on Instagram and stuff where it'll be like, you know, 90 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,920 Speaker 2: young men before they go off to war, and then 91 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,560 Speaker 2: a photograph of them after, and you see these just 92 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,360 Speaker 2: like you know, these severe, hardened kind of lines and 93 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,880 Speaker 2: just gaunt kind of expressions, very similar to what happens 94 00:05:37,880 --> 00:05:41,239 Speaker 2: at the end of a four year term of being presidents. 95 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 2: It's it is, it is a battle. It is its 96 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 2: own kind of war. Absolutely. 97 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,800 Speaker 1: I mean, it gives you that thousand league stare, which 98 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,280 Speaker 1: is a scary thing to see in real life. And 99 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,880 Speaker 1: you know, okay, so let's let's start with our guy 100 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 1: to comes up. He is a famous Shawnee chief. He 101 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 1: has the dream of the United Native Federation, and the 102 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 1: historical lore like the gather around the campfire type stories 103 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: assure us that he is responsible for a curse. But 104 00:06:14,040 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: to understand the story of that curse, we need to 105 00:06:16,480 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: learn a little bit more about our guy, mister T, 106 00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: who I'll only call mister T once just because it's funny. 107 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,599 Speaker 2: I reserve the right to call him that once myself. 108 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: Okay, good, that's acceptible these terms, and then we'll have 109 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:35,720 Speaker 1: a third mister T on Maxi's behalf if he wants to. Uh, 110 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,800 Speaker 1: all right, there it is. Okay, No, you've got the 111 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: last one left. 112 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 2: Do you know mister T was apparently terrified of flying? 113 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 2: I think yeah, character on the show. Yeah yeah, yeah, okay, 114 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:50,040 Speaker 2: so does that kind of smells mister T? No me 115 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:53,200 Speaker 2: referring to mister the actual mister T from the A team. 116 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 3: I think the spirit of we're not doing Strickland rules 117 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:57,960 Speaker 3: then about that. 118 00:06:57,880 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 2: I don't know what that is. 119 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,640 Speaker 1: That's where if you say a certain name three times, 120 00:07:02,000 --> 00:07:07,279 Speaker 1: a certain individual appears. Yeah, I'm not playing that game. 121 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:11,960 Speaker 1: Although I just saw the new art for the Beetlejuice 122 00:07:11,960 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: sequel that's happening. 123 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, it exists. I've seen some people kind of nagging it. 124 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: You don't know. So many people will make like fan 125 00:07:19,840 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 2: art for movies that are in development, and some of 126 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:24,480 Speaker 2: them are so good, you're like, is that the one? 127 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 2: This to me had the air of fan art about it, 128 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 2: and not even like particularly awesome fan art, right right. 129 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 1: Well, it's also it's been interesting to me because the 130 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 1: original Beetlejuice sequel was supposed to be set in Hawaii, 131 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: which is definitely choice. Anyway, there's nothing to do with it. 132 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 1: We'll do a history of Beetlejuice like later. 133 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:47,240 Speaker 2: Well, what we do have with mister T, and that 134 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: is that Mister T that this is my use there 135 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: is that you've got multiple spellings of this guy's name, 136 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: which is pretty cool, and even that could result in 137 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:01,520 Speaker 2: different pronunciations. You've got to come to sea also spelled 138 00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,800 Speaker 2: to come tha. If you got a lift, you know, 139 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: then you've got to come to come fay or to 140 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 2: come tha with thha. What we do know is he 141 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 2: was born in seventeen sixty eight, southeast of Old Chillicothe, 142 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 2: Old Chilicothe, That's what I'm going to say. That is 143 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:24,640 Speaker 2: north of what is today Xenia, Ohio. 144 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: And he had a very difficult life, to be quite honest. 145 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: Growing up was not easy for him. His father was 146 00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 1: killed by a group of white folks in seventeen seventy four. 147 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,640 Speaker 1: His mother, who was a Muskogee, left him when he 148 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: was seven years old to journey with part of her 149 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:45,560 Speaker 1: community to Missouri and. 150 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 2: So to come. 151 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 1: So was left to be raised by his older siblings. 152 00:08:49,679 --> 00:08:53,200 Speaker 1: And this often happens in times of instability. You know, 153 00:08:53,360 --> 00:08:56,679 Speaker 1: the oldest sister, the oldest brother has to function as 154 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: the guardian, the parent figure. So to come to is 155 00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:03,800 Speaker 1: it comes to grows up under the supervision of his 156 00:09:04,640 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: one of his older sisters to come pace, and she 157 00:09:08,120 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: trains him in the She teaches him what it means 158 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 1: to be Shawnee, the moraise, the values, the social codes. 159 00:09:17,559 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 1: And then alongside that, his brother, one of his brothers, 160 00:09:21,200 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: teaches him the art of woodcraft and hunting, how to 161 00:09:24,200 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: live rough, survive in the wild. 162 00:09:26,160 --> 00:09:29,680 Speaker 2: That's right, that's a cheesy cow. So he learned some 163 00:09:29,880 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 2: pretty solid outdoorsman type skills in addition to having a 164 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:38,760 Speaker 2: pretty solid backbone and a moral compass, so all the 165 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:41,640 Speaker 2: makings of a of a great man. He was then 166 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: adopted by a Shawnee chief, Blackfish Uh, and he grew 167 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:51,520 Speaker 2: to become a young man with several other foster brothers 168 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,800 Speaker 2: who were in fact white whom Blackfish had actually captured 169 00:09:55,800 --> 00:09:59,560 Speaker 2: but appeared to have treated with some level of dignity. 170 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:02,760 Speaker 1: You know what, I just hit me, We're really close 171 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,199 Speaker 1: to President's Day. I almost thought it was President's Day, 172 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:10,240 Speaker 1: but that's like, what next week? It's the third. It's 173 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: one of those third day of the month kind of things. 174 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 3: Third Monday, I'm going on a quick little vacation up 175 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:18,960 Speaker 3: at Charleston and see some friends up there and I'll 176 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 3: explain them. I'm like, yeah, I have Monday off for 177 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:23,360 Speaker 3: President's Day. And what is President's Day? I'm like, so, 178 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 3: it's what. 179 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 2: I think it's. 180 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:30,760 Speaker 3: Abraham Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, and George Washington all have a 181 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,160 Speaker 3: birthday in February, right or close to it. I think 182 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 3: one of the might actually be born at the end 183 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 3: of January or something like that. But it's like, hey, 184 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 3: these three guys were born around this time have a 185 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,439 Speaker 3: day off, which is just like, as I say to people, 186 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:43,920 Speaker 3: I'm not going to argue against my job giving me 187 00:10:43,960 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 3: a free day off. 188 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: Jefferson is in April. I think, yeah, Wow, Okay, maybe 189 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 2: Jefferson doesn't. 190 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,120 Speaker 1: Matter at all in this He doesn't matter at all 191 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:54,640 Speaker 1: to us history or to holidays. Well we'll get to 192 00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 1: Jefferson in a second, but yeah, I just want to 193 00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: shout that out. So as this comes out, the happy 194 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: President's Day to all who celebrate. 195 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:05,760 Speaker 2: I guess I don't know, how do you celebrate president. 196 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:10,760 Speaker 2: How does one celebrate your favorite president? Maybe put on 197 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 2: a powdered wig of funny hat, give a speech you know, 198 00:11:14,760 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 2: I don't know. 199 00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:20,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, take over some takeover some other people's lands, Okay, 200 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: sure to soon brand. In fact, if it comes to 201 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:35,679 Speaker 1: like you're saying, he is definitely anti American soldiers and settlers, 202 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: and there's very good reason for this. But he still 203 00:11:39,440 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: had that Shawnee code, so he didn't want to uh 204 00:11:43,880 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: commit what we would call war crimes. He thought it 205 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: was right and ethical to fight American soldiers on the battlefield, 206 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: but he wouldn't stand for them being tortured, for being 207 00:11:55,240 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: burned at the stake, drawn and quartered. And when he saw, 208 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: for instance, when he saw some compatriots preparing to burn 209 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:07,240 Speaker 1: a guy alive, he went absolutely nuts to a ham 210 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 1: on them. And they, to be fair, they didn't stop 211 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:15,200 Speaker 1: torturing prisoners, but they stopped torturing prisoners in front of 212 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:19,280 Speaker 1: him because of his code. And for the years after 213 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,400 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War, he was like a one man get 214 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 1: a army. 215 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 2: He dropped some serious shaming on those guys and they reacted. 216 00:12:28,920 --> 00:12:31,640 Speaker 2: It would seem I mean, and he had an air 217 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: of legitimacy and authority about him. People paid attention when 218 00:12:37,960 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 2: he said stuff you know when and that that code 219 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 2: he kind of transmitted to anyone who he encountered. So 220 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 2: after the Revolutionary War to come, so was a, like 221 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: you said, kind of a one man show, a bit 222 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 2: of a marauding one man Garia army, fighting in various 223 00:12:56,200 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 2: skirmishes against the Whites in the old Northwest and helping 224 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:06,640 Speaker 2: out with the Cherokees in the South. He was the 225 00:13:06,679 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 2: youngest of this particular band of folks that he was 226 00:13:10,920 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 2: a part of. But again for a lot of the 227 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:16,440 Speaker 2: reasons that we've already listed thus far, was chosen to 228 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,319 Speaker 2: be the leader because of his just absolute charisma and 229 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 2: chops on the battlefield. So he continued to fight in 230 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,360 Speaker 2: small actions as with the source that we're looking at 231 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,480 Speaker 2: refers to them as in the South, and he became 232 00:13:32,120 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: friends with the Creek Indians, a relationship that would later 233 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:37,319 Speaker 2: help him to form an alliance. 234 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and this alliance will be incredibly important. And 235 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: we see, you know, times of war and chaos make 236 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:50,319 Speaker 1: for strange bedfellows. So there's very much a sense that 237 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:56,360 Speaker 1: these guys are uniting against a larger, more dangerous power, right, 238 00:13:56,520 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: and they're going to put their differences aside for a time. 239 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: Unfortunate during these days, to Comes to loses two of 240 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: his brothers, including his brother Chiesikou, who taught him the 241 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: the arts of living in the wild. Chisikau dies in 242 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: seventeen ninety two fighting in the South with Cherokee compatriots, 243 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: and then to Comes his brother Sawasikaw was killed in 244 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:28,680 Speaker 1: Ohio in seventeen ninety four. And these deaths are a 245 00:14:28,680 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: big reason that are a big part of the reason 246 00:14:31,520 --> 00:14:36,400 Speaker 1: that to Comes opposed the so called peace chiefs. They're 247 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: the community leaders who wanted to push for a peaceful 248 00:14:40,800 --> 00:14:43,840 Speaker 1: resolution with the nascent American forces. 249 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, which is interesting because I mean, he he did 250 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 2: seem like he was someone who understood had a balance 251 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 2: between you know, war and peace, and that there was 252 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 2: a time for war and there was a time for peace. 253 00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:59,920 Speaker 2: He wasn't like an outright hawkish, you know type dude. 254 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:04,280 Speaker 2: But he also wasn't like a dovish type. He isn't 255 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 2: somewhere in the middle. He was very pragmatic. So Blue Jacket, 256 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: who was a Shawnee chief of note with his time 257 00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 2: in seventeen ninety four, was amassing forces warriors to meet 258 00:15:18,200 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 2: the US Army on their turf under Major General Anthony Wayne. 259 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: This Blue Jacket actually summoned to comesome. He called for 260 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: him to return to Ohio. However, it would seem that 261 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 2: the general wasn't looking for a fight, was actually hoping 262 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,320 Speaker 2: to make a deal instead. 263 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, we're again, we're getting some of this from our 264 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:46,560 Speaker 1: good friends that Encyclopedia Britannic. Here's how they put it. 265 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:50,120 Speaker 1: When the leading chiefs of the Old Northwest gathered at 266 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: Wayne's call in Greenville in Ohio to come to held 267 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: aloof and when the Treaty of Greenville was negotiated in 268 00:15:56,800 --> 00:16:00,960 Speaker 1: August seventeen ninety five, he refused to RECOGNI. He roundly 269 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: attacked the peace chiefs who sideway land that he contended 270 00:16:05,120 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: they did not own. So he's saying the land is 271 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: like the air and the water, it's the common possession 272 00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: of all the Native people in the native communities here. 273 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: This is the institution of communal ownership of land policy. 274 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: That's one of his big platforms. And he is a 275 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:32,200 Speaker 1: really great public speaker. Even his enemies, like the American soldiers, 276 00:16:32,240 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: acknowledged that, and they said you know, we don't agree 277 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: with him, but this guy's basically like the Native American 278 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: version of Henry Clay and he. 279 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: Which was much more of a compliment at this time. 280 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,760 Speaker 1: Which was much more of a compliment at this time 281 00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: because at this time Henry Clay is still on the 282 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: rise in Kentucky. 283 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: He's still got that new car. Smell well, Ben. It 284 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: reminds me a lot of an episode that we recently 285 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:58,080 Speaker 2: did on Stuff they Don't Want You to Know. And 286 00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: then the term is escaping me now, but what was 287 00:16:59,880 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: that term bent about the idea of land that is 288 00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 2: unclaimed or terrannulius terrannulius, and is within that conversation, the 289 00:17:09,480 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 2: idea of ownership of land was like kind of front 290 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,000 Speaker 2: and center in that episode of Stuff they Don't Want 291 00:17:15,000 --> 00:17:17,000 Speaker 2: You to Know. And this is a great example of 292 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,920 Speaker 2: like two sides that have a fundamental disagreement or different 293 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:26,200 Speaker 2: view on the concept of who owns land, not only 294 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:29,800 Speaker 2: in terms of like, you know, who owns it like 295 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 2: in practice, but just conceptually who owns land? How do 296 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 2: how does one own land? How can land be you know, 297 00:17:38,280 --> 00:17:41,200 Speaker 2: the property of an individual or group? Right? 298 00:17:41,320 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: And what we discover in that episode, which you. Absolutely. 299 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: Hopefully it will be out by the time you hear this, folks, 300 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: but absolutely check out that show, uh, because we gain 301 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:55,320 Speaker 1: a new appreciation for the power and danger of flags. 302 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:59,360 Speaker 1: As weird as that sounds, it's one for the vexillologists 303 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 1: in your life. Yeah, you're absolutely right. This idea of 304 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,760 Speaker 1: land is a surprisingly complicated question because the need for 305 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:11,080 Speaker 1: it is so universal, and human history really is an 306 00:18:11,119 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: agglomeration of rationalizations for taking land from someone else. And 307 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: he still has other brothers. This is where we take 308 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: a little bit of a turn to come to himself. 309 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: Seems like a pretty righteous, maybe kind of humble dude, 310 00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 1: but his brother is a little bit of a little 311 00:18:30,920 --> 00:18:32,919 Speaker 1: bit of a different case. And this actually comes up 312 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: in a great science fiction fantasy series by Orson Scott 313 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,919 Speaker 1: Card called Alvin Maker. 314 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 2: Oh, this kind of appears in that one. 315 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 1: It's a great It's weird that it hasn't been made 316 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:46,320 Speaker 1: into a film series yet, but it's really good. 317 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 2: Isn't or Scott Card a little problematic? Yeah, he's a 318 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,160 Speaker 2: terrible person. Yeah, I thought, okay, but you know, sometimes 319 00:18:52,200 --> 00:18:54,679 Speaker 2: you gotta take the good with the bat when it 320 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:56,919 Speaker 2: comes to fiction, especially when it comes to folks that 321 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:58,959 Speaker 2: aren't around anywhere. You got to kind of take your 322 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 2: battles a little bit, you know, maybe just throw throw 323 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,639 Speaker 2: them all out. Oh orses, scout cards alive. And he 324 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 2: is terrible, terrible Yeah on purpose, Okay, on purpose? Well 325 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 2: to your point, been about this title of the prophet, right, 326 00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, this this stems from a vision that he 327 00:19:18,240 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 2: claims to have had something of a you know, the 328 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:25,400 Speaker 2: the golden tablets being passed down from on high type 329 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 2: vision from from an entity he refers to as the 330 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 2: Master of life. Ah, yes, yeah. 331 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: And so in Indiana, these two brothers to come to 332 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: in ten Squatawa, they get together, they build a town 333 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: and they name it profits Town. And the community that 334 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: they build could be portrayed by some as a cult 335 00:19:51,119 --> 00:19:56,200 Speaker 1: because they were they were very much into rejecting the 336 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: normalization of what they saw as white customs. Sure, they 337 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: wanted to get rid of that. They wanted to cut 338 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 1: the culture war off. 339 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:09,240 Speaker 2: At the pass. And he's operating under these orders or 340 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 2: instructions from an entity that you know, no one else 341 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 2: can directly communicate with. Now, that is also a pretty 342 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: pretty solid argument for a call. When you have a 343 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:21,880 Speaker 2: guy who's saying I've got the goods, I've got the intel. 344 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 2: No one else is capable of having it, and I'm 345 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: the one that's going to interpret it and pass it 346 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:31,120 Speaker 2: down to you, my followers, right exactly. 347 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:36,280 Speaker 1: And this is you know, this is classic cult umami. 348 00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: That's just how it works. He he has this mysticism 349 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 1: that appeals to people in the Native communities. At this point, 350 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: you know, almost everybody in a Native community, regardless of 351 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:55,679 Speaker 1: their tribe, has been adversely affected by the expansion of 352 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: again the Nissans American state. And they've lost loved ones, 353 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:05,800 Speaker 1: They've been in wars, they've seen horrors visited upon their communities, 354 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: civilians of warriors alike. So this message is coming at 355 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,960 Speaker 1: the right time. Unite against the Unite for the greater good, 356 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 1: against this common evil. 357 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:18,280 Speaker 2: Common enemy. 358 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:24,199 Speaker 1: And so as this community continues to grow more and 359 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: more and more skyrocketing to comes to starts to dream bigger, 360 00:21:28,400 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: and he says, you know, one day, if these trends continue, 361 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: there will be a world wherein our community is large 362 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 1: enough and strong enough to stop the Americans from expanding. 363 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: He said, We're gonna band together, We're going to start 364 00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,399 Speaker 1: a Native confederation. And so he goes leveraging his superb 365 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: oratory oratory skills, he travels throughout the land. He goes 366 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: to speak with Ozark communities in New York, he goes 367 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:01,760 Speaker 1: from Iowa to Florida, and he's gaining recruits. 368 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:02,479 Speaker 2: The entire way. 369 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:08,400 Speaker 1: And he's saying, if I can get everybody to agree 370 00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 1: despite their differences in time, then I can stop what's 371 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,919 Speaker 1: happening to our native land. 372 00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:21,359 Speaker 2: And he might have. If things had gone. 373 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,199 Speaker 1: Differently, history would have taken a very different direction. But 374 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: something happened while he was on the road. 375 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 2: That's right, while he was on one of his missions. 376 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: The governor at that time of the Indiana Territory, a 377 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,119 Speaker 2: man by the name of General William Henry Harrison you 378 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 2: may have heard of. He led a militia of over 379 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: a thousand men who marched on profits town, which led 380 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:53,440 Speaker 2: to what an event that would later be would later 381 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:57,240 Speaker 2: be immortalized in a very popular slogan. It became a 382 00:22:57,359 --> 00:23:03,159 Speaker 2: rallying point politically, better or worse, the Battle of tippe Canoe, 383 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 2: Yes yes, which. 384 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: You may recognize from some later political slogans. The Battle 385 00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: of typic Canoe is fought between these US soldiers and 386 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,200 Speaker 1: Native American warriors on the banks of a river called 387 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,679 Speaker 1: the keth Tippi Canunk, which is right there in the 388 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,920 Speaker 1: middle of central Pennsylvania. And this occurs in the context 389 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,840 Speaker 1: of the Treaty of Fort Wayne, which is an agreement 390 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: signed in eighteen oh nine that said, hey, if you're 391 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: a Native American tribe or community in Indiana, you have 392 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: to sell three million acres of land to the US government. 393 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,919 Speaker 1: And because of this, to comes at this time. It's 394 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 1: Chief of the Shopping or one of the chiefs. 395 00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,880 Speaker 2: He takes his. 396 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: Confederation of Native American tribes united and he says, let's 397 00:23:52,080 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: come here. Let's combat this absolute deluge of pioneers and 398 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:04,639 Speaker 1: settlers coming into land. And that leads the that leads 399 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: Governor Harrison to destroy the Shawnee Village Profits Town. And 400 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: when Harrison gets there, it's November sixth, eighteen eleven, he 401 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: sees one of Tenskawatawa's the one of the Profits followers, 402 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:27,560 Speaker 1: waving a white flag pretty much the universal sign for parlay, surrender, 403 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:33,480 Speaker 1: or negotiation. They requested a ceasefire, and they said, look, 404 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:39,360 Speaker 1: before anything goes sideways, Harrison and to Comsa, you guys 405 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: should sit down and you should talk about what's going on. 406 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,600 Speaker 1: But to Kumsa is not in town. 407 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 2: He's not there. Unfortunately, he is away from Profitstown. He 408 00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,200 Speaker 2: is on another one of his missions to recruit warriors 409 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 2: from members of the what are referred to as the 410 00:24:59,720 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 2: Five Civilized Tribes, who were also seeing the same kind 411 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 2: of aggression being focused upon their lands, you know, folks 412 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,960 Speaker 2: marching upon them, or at the very least the threat 413 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:20,200 Speaker 2: of that kind of intervention. So everyone was looking to, 414 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,200 Speaker 2: you know, folks like Takumesa for advice, you know, for guidance, 415 00:25:25,240 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 2: and this idea of banding together and forming alliances became very, 416 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:32,200 Speaker 2: very attractive. 417 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:39,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, and Harrison says, okay, Profit they call you, I'll 418 00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: agree to your terms. And he turns his guys around. 419 00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: They go to a hill about a mile away from 420 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 1: Profetstown on the Bank's Burnett Creek, and Harrison doesn't think 421 00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 1: this is a real ceasefire, because what the prophet says is, look, 422 00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,200 Speaker 1: let's just hold here until my brother can get here, 423 00:26:00,520 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: and you guys can talk. 424 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 2: This through, have your parlay. 425 00:26:03,600 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: And Harrison is thinking with the cleverness of a snake, 426 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: and he's saying, oh, sure, trick him into a ceasefire 427 00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: and then murder them in the night. That's absolutely what 428 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:20,640 Speaker 1: I would do. And so he says, guys, don't chill 429 00:26:20,680 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: out at camp. We need to maintain a watch. We 430 00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: need a defensive position. 431 00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:29,880 Speaker 2: But that's also something that to comes to, wouldn't wouldn't 432 00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:36,160 Speaker 2: sign on for he is vinely inspired. That's a really 433 00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 2: good point. And yeah, it is very interesting the relationship 434 00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: between Tecumsa and Tenskoatawa, Tenscatawa operating under on these divine instructions. 435 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 2: And you know, when we know that, when that can happen, 436 00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: people can go off the rails pretty quickly and get 437 00:26:50,880 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 2: a little high on their own supply or you know, 438 00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 2: drink their own kool aid to use another culty related aphorism. 439 00:26:58,280 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 2: Whereas to come to what is really driven by that code? 440 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:04,840 Speaker 2: You know that he was taught, he was really driven 441 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 2: by the idea of not being a war don't do 442 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 2: war crimes. Yeah, yeah, but someone else who might see, 443 00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 2: you know, if I do it, it isn't war crimes 444 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 2: because I am divinely guided exactly. That's problematic. 445 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 1: I'm doing what the Master of Life told me to do. 446 00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 2: Master of life he knows best. Therefore, if I do 447 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 2: this on his command. This isn't this isn't a bad thing, 448 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 2: but it comes on the other hand, it's operating under 449 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 2: much more real world uh, sets of of you know, 450 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 2: mores and values. 451 00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:43,800 Speaker 1: There's a deepness to it like that. The differences between 452 00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:47,480 Speaker 1: their philosophies and their relationships are with the world are 453 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: what make them such a good team. But ultimately it 454 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:51,960 Speaker 1: also leads to their downfalls. 455 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 2: It's true. And I was reading a little bit on 456 00:27:53,920 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 2: the side just about how to come to largely you know, 457 00:27:57,760 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 2: used his brother, and again Max point on off there 458 00:28:00,359 --> 00:28:01,959 Speaker 2: that they might not have even been brothers. They were 459 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:03,600 Speaker 2: more just like brothers in arms. 460 00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:07,600 Speaker 1: And like how everybody Atlanta's exactly but to that like 461 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:08,919 Speaker 1: to come to was adopted to. 462 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 2: And that's right, and very unclear the actual you know, lineage, 463 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 2: the blood lineage, but Takamsa was it was pretty clear. 464 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 2: What was clear is that he was using this power 465 00:28:21,520 --> 00:28:25,800 Speaker 2: that his you know, that his brother had for political purposes, 466 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,600 Speaker 2: not necessarily in a snakelike way, just in like a 467 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:31,960 Speaker 2: you know, this is helpful, This is going to get 468 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,040 Speaker 2: us some feet in the door, right, you know, and 469 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,160 Speaker 2: and help us a mask some followers. And if it's 470 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 2: all for the greater good of the tribes and of 471 00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: the people. You know, of our people, then so be it. 472 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: And ten Skuatawa, however, is also not above capitalizing on 473 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: Tekumsa's absence. Because Tkmsa is gone from Prophetstown, Tinskatawa has 474 00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 1: the reins of control. He's proxy ruler. And even though 475 00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: to comes to said, look, we cannot face American forces 476 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 1: until we have our numbers beefed up. Even though tens 477 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 1: Katawa is very well aware of this because of his 478 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 1: divine inspiration, he stands out on this rock ledge that 479 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:21,960 Speaker 1: overlooks Profits Town. It's called Profits Rock today, by the way, 480 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:27,040 Speaker 1: and he starts singing war songs, chanting incantations, and he 481 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: promises the people there's a true fact. He promises his 482 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: followers that these spells, these prayers I am making, they 483 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: will protect you from the US bullets. And so when 484 00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:45,720 Speaker 1: Harrison wakes the next morning, we don't know how well 485 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,560 Speaker 1: or how long he's slept, but at dawn he gets 486 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: up and his entire camp a mile away on that 487 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:58,080 Speaker 1: hill is surrounded by ten Squatawa's warriors, and they are 488 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 1: ready to go. If you want to learned a lot 489 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 1: about the back and forth of how the battle actually occurred, 490 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: and it looked like it was anyone's game for quite 491 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,520 Speaker 1: some time. Go to American Battle Trust, a great resource 492 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: that Max found that has you know, this is like 493 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: the kind of stuff you study at war college. It 494 00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: might put a lot of people to sleep, but it's 495 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,080 Speaker 1: like a blow by blow analysis of what happened. 496 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 2: And we know that around this time, I think we're 497 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 2: starting to see Native tribes having some form of firearm, 498 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 2: but it's certainly not to the same degree that the 499 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:44,040 Speaker 2: American forces would have. They weren't fighting, you know, rifles 500 00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 2: one to one with like spears and bows and arrows, 501 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,360 Speaker 2: but they certainly did not have the same level and 502 00:30:50,440 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: stockpile of weaponry that their opponents had. 503 00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: No, Yeah, you're absolutely right, And the entirety of the 504 00:30:58,320 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: fighting last for about two hours. It might surprise a 505 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,920 Speaker 1: lot of people that for this kind of close up fighting, 506 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:10,720 Speaker 1: or even when you get to hand to hand, those 507 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 1: battles don't actually last a very long time. It's tremendously 508 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,040 Speaker 1: taxing on the physical body. 509 00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: You kind of wonder too, though, if Harrison was like, 510 00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:24,520 Speaker 2: maybe we shouldn't just make this a massacre, because I 511 00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:28,840 Speaker 2: still am hoping perhaps to parlay with the comesa down 512 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 2: the line, and if I you know, absolutely annihilate his folks, 513 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 2: even though it's because his broad did a bad thing 514 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:41,960 Speaker 2: and you know, went down a weird path. I don't 515 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:43,880 Speaker 2: know that would be a good thing big picture, I 516 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:46,960 Speaker 2: don't know what you got. That's just a deestimation on. 517 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:53,680 Speaker 1: My Unfortunately, what I think without knowing the interior mind 518 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,800 Speaker 1: of Harrison, we can say that he looked like he 519 00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: was willing to play ball in the beginning, but his 520 00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:06,960 Speaker 1: march he already had a deficit of trust, right, and 521 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,400 Speaker 1: he clearly he did not consider Native Americans people. He yeah, 522 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: let's yeah, let's not tread too lightly on this guy 523 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:18,880 Speaker 1: being like some super woke historical figure. 524 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 2: He was just like you know, his peers and that 525 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:23,920 Speaker 2: and that was but he was shrewd. So he was 526 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: gonna capitalize on these things and perhaps play the game 527 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: acting as though he was gonna parlay with them. I 528 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:34,160 Speaker 2: think he gave them one real good faith chance. I 529 00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:36,160 Speaker 2: think that's right, and this was this was it being 530 00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 2: squandered on their part. 531 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,160 Speaker 3: I think he would have given to come to the chance, 532 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 3: to come to the table, to tell to come, Tom, 533 00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,280 Speaker 3: I'll let you leave without killing your people. 534 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 2: That's right. 535 00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,280 Speaker 3: I think that's as high as he. 536 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 2: Would have gone. 537 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:50,640 Speaker 1: It would have been like, yeah, you don't have to 538 00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,720 Speaker 1: go home, but you can't stay here, and then say well, 539 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: this is our home, and he'd be like ah about 540 00:32:55,640 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 1: that though. 541 00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,240 Speaker 2: And even this sense of quote unquote respect or admiration 542 00:33:00,440 --> 00:33:05,240 Speaker 2: for Takomsta and his like oratory abilities probably didn't extend 543 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:08,479 Speaker 2: much further than like these folks looking at him as 544 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: like being like a slightly you know, better dressed member 545 00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,080 Speaker 2: of a sub human species, you know what I mean. 546 00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:21,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, And let's also remember that his violence against Native 547 00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: Americans is a big reason Harrison later becomes president. 548 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:27,560 Speaker 2: People love that. People were all about it. 549 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:29,800 Speaker 1: We're all about it. It was like it was like 550 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: his version being able to juggle. But you know, genocide. 551 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:41,800 Speaker 1: It does sound like he's giving them a chance to 552 00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:46,960 Speaker 1: gtfo right, and he doesn't want to lose soldiers because 553 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 1: the US is still recovering after the bloody Revolutionary War. 554 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 1: He also would like to not du atrocities if he 555 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,840 Speaker 1: could dodge it, but his opinion on that is pretty ambivalent. 556 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 2: History will prove. 557 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,120 Speaker 1: So they have this one chance. They have this deficit 558 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:09,480 Speaker 1: of trust. Tenskaatawa acts out of line, he violates the 559 00:34:09,560 --> 00:34:13,920 Speaker 1: chain of command and as a result, and we're not 560 00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 1: saying magic's not real, but his magic doesn't work right. 561 00:34:16,880 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 1: As a result, Harrison is hardened against Profitstown. He wanted 562 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,960 Speaker 1: it to be peacefully abandoned, but now he's all gas, 563 00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:30,960 Speaker 1: no breaks, He just defends in the fight tense. Katawa's 564 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: forces are are set against him now because they believe 565 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,399 Speaker 1: the guy. But those those spells did not protect them 566 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: from bullets. 567 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,040 Speaker 2: They got shot, they. 568 00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,480 Speaker 1: Died, they got made. They come back and they're like, 569 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: you are a snake oil salesman. 570 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,800 Speaker 2: Can you picture the montage of this in the movie 571 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: where you as the audience are like, no, no, don't 572 00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 2: do it, don't get off that ledge. What are you doing. 573 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:57,880 Speaker 2: You're sentencing your people to death at the very least, 574 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:01,360 Speaker 2: and absolute annihil at the most. 575 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:08,400 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, this happens in This happens more recently too in history, 576 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,520 Speaker 1: in different conflicts on the African continent, including like Zulu 577 00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: Wars and in the Boxer Rebellion in China, there have 578 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,279 Speaker 1: been these charismatic figures who claim that through magic, they 579 00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: can make you immune to bullets and spoiler. At no 580 00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:28,440 Speaker 1: point in history has any one of those spells ever worked. 581 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:32,000 Speaker 1: I'm trying to be really fair again, I'm saying they 582 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,160 Speaker 1: haven't worked yet. I don't know whether magic's real, but 583 00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:40,800 Speaker 1: the track record for bulletproofing through incantation is just terrible 584 00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:47,319 Speaker 1: at this point. And so Native Americans are abandoning Profits Town. 585 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:50,640 Speaker 1: The vast majority of them are gone very quickly because 586 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,360 Speaker 1: they think tens Katawa is a con artist or a failure. 587 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 1: On November eighth, eighteen eleven, Harrison comes into the mostly 588 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 1: abandoned Profits Town and he burns it to the ground 589 00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:09,760 Speaker 1: before marching back to one of the major Indiana towns 590 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: at the time. Vincent's, is that how I would say it? 591 00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,680 Speaker 2: I think that's right. Yeah, maybe e Vincen's if we're 592 00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:22,560 Speaker 2: going to be Italian about it, but tell us yeah. 593 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,320 Speaker 1: But it comes to finally gets to Profits Town three 594 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: months later, and he just sees ruins. They're not even 595 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 1: smoking at this point, the fires have died again. 596 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,200 Speaker 2: Sorry to compare everything to movie production, but I can 597 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 2: picture that too. He's coming back, he's done his due diligence, 598 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: and they really crap the bed while he was gone. 599 00:36:40,360 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 2: And look at look at the records they've left behind 600 00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 2: in their wake. Ineomorcone begins to play a million I'm sorry. 601 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:52,040 Speaker 2: These pop cultural references are are valuable for a reason, because, 602 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 2: you know, the history if nothing at the end of 603 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:57,400 Speaker 2: the day, is storytelling, you know. 604 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: So it comes to is dreams of creating creating a 605 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: Native American confederation with Prophetstown as its capital. Those dreams 606 00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:12,320 Speaker 1: are dashed, and he says, you know what, this doesn't 607 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,880 Speaker 1: matter though, I am still going to fight against this 608 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 1: poisonous American expansion. And so he again he's very smart, right, 609 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,200 Speaker 1: he can smell what's in the wind, he can see 610 00:37:25,200 --> 00:37:29,719 Speaker 1: the signs forming, and he sees that he calls it. 611 00:37:29,800 --> 00:37:31,960 Speaker 1: He sees that there's going to be a war between 612 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 1: the Americans and the British. They still hate each other. Right, 613 00:37:35,320 --> 00:37:36,479 Speaker 1: it's not a smart guy. 614 00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,520 Speaker 2: He's reading the room, right, He's like seeing the big picture. 615 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: And so he doesn't know that historians will call it 616 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 1: the War of eighteen twelve, but he knows it's on 617 00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,200 Speaker 1: the way, and so he gets with He gets his 618 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: surviving followers. They go to Fort Malden on the Canadian 619 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:54,880 Speaker 1: side of the Detroit River, and they join up with 620 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,840 Speaker 1: the British and these guys at this point all his followers. 621 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 1: They are battle hard and they've been traumatized. They're not 622 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: played around, so they are a huge factor in the 623 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:08,760 Speaker 1: British victory. 624 00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:09,040 Speaker 2: There. 625 00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: The British and the Native American forces captured Detroit and 626 00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: they also capture two thousand, five hundred US soldiers. 627 00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 2: It's a coup, like they really is. Yeah. After this victory, 628 00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:25,760 Speaker 2: to come takes off on another one of his long 629 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:31,400 Speaker 2: journeys to you know, gather forces, you know, from the 630 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,000 Speaker 2: various tribes, which did result in the uprising of the 631 00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 2: Alabama Creek tribe, and that was in response to his 632 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:46,320 Speaker 2: stirring you know rhetoric. The Chicka Saws, Choctaws and Cherokees, however, 633 00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:50,200 Speaker 2: were not feeling to come to as vibes nearly as much. 634 00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 2: And at this point I just think this is very interesting. 635 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 2: You know, he is he is a big picture kind 636 00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 2: of dude. He is able to kind of see what 637 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 2: is needed to get the job done, and sometimes that 638 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,120 Speaker 2: means joining forces with folks who may look like your enemy. 639 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,200 Speaker 2: He actually joins up with the British General Henry A. 640 00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,800 Speaker 2: Proctor in invading Ohio and you know again, common enemy, 641 00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:19,400 Speaker 2: and together they take over Fort Miggs and they hold it. 642 00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,279 Speaker 2: And William Henry Harrison at this point is on the 643 00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:29,600 Speaker 2: Maumie River just above Toledo, where, based on a kind 644 00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 2: of a strategic gambit by Tecumsa, he intercepts and destroys 645 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 2: a brigade of Kentucky soldiers under Colonel William Dudley. 646 00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:43,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is this is quite a clever move 647 00:39:43,520 --> 00:39:47,120 Speaker 1: on to comsa's part because it cuts off support that 648 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: would have enabled Harrison to continue the conflict. However, this 649 00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:55,160 Speaker 1: is a mixed bag victory because they don't capture the 650 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: actual fort. They have to retreat. There is a guy 651 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,160 Speaker 1: gives Harrison time to make a counter attack despite the 652 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 1: damage that's been done. On October fifth, eighteen thirteen, British 653 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:11,040 Speaker 1: and Native forces are routed, They're kicked out, they're runoff. 654 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,760 Speaker 1: Harrison wins control of the area. Tacumsa is killed in action. 655 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:21,760 Speaker 1: His body is carried away from the conflict area. He's 656 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: buried in a secret grave, and just like the grave 657 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: of Djengis Khan, this burial place has never been discovered 658 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: and we still don't know much about his death. We 659 00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: don't know who killed him. We don't know how he 660 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,839 Speaker 1: died necessarily. All we can say for sure is that 661 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: this real sleeves bag named Richard M. Johnson later becomes 662 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:50,480 Speaker 1: Vice President of the United States because of his tall tail. 663 00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:55,319 Speaker 1: He claims that he had killed Tecumsa, and no one 664 00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,880 Speaker 1: can disprove it. People don't really believe him, I think, 665 00:40:58,920 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: but no one could disc prove it. But it's a 666 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,239 Speaker 1: very convenient way to build a legend around yourself. Now 667 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: at this point you're probably wondering, ridiculous historians, what happened 668 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:13,279 Speaker 1: to Tenskawatawa the Prophet. Well, he had already lost his 669 00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:16,839 Speaker 1: prestige because it turned out the spells he cast did 670 00:41:16,880 --> 00:41:20,640 Speaker 1: not work. He had fled to Canada and he had 671 00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:25,799 Speaker 1: a creative split with Tecumsa and to come didn't really 672 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:28,759 Speaker 1: account for him in his plants because he was no 673 00:41:28,840 --> 00:41:32,680 Speaker 1: longer an effective propagandist, which is really how he functioned 674 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 1: the whole way through. He lived until eighteen thirty four, 675 00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,360 Speaker 1: and he died in Kansas, in a town called Argentine, Kansas. 676 00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:43,960 Speaker 1: We didn't mention this, by the way, but one of 677 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,880 Speaker 1: the reasons he is known as the prophet is because 678 00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 1: he appeared to accurately predict a solar eclipse in eighteen 679 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:57,360 Speaker 1: oh six, So he did make the call there. But 680 00:41:57,480 --> 00:42:02,319 Speaker 1: also I would point out that Native American communities for 681 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 1: thousands of years across North and South America, they had 682 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:11,000 Speaker 1: a pretty good grasp of the patterns of the heavens. 683 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:14,680 Speaker 1: So it's kind of sure. It's kind of like saying, hey, 684 00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,000 Speaker 1: it's going to be five pm after four point thirty, 685 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: and people are like, this guy's a genius. 686 00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,080 Speaker 2: And also like a broken clock is right twice a day. 687 00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:24,760 Speaker 2: That kind of thing, you know, when you have people 688 00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 2: that are looking to you to confirm whether or not 689 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,680 Speaker 2: you've got some sort of powers of sight, and then 690 00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:32,799 Speaker 2: you get one thing right and that's the one you 691 00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,600 Speaker 2: kind of play up. You know. Yea reminds me of 692 00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:37,400 Speaker 2: like Nostra damas and things like that, where you know, 693 00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:39,960 Speaker 2: he definitely had some things that you know, played pretty 694 00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,160 Speaker 2: close to the truth, but also when you interpret it 695 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,000 Speaker 2: in different ways, it was kind of just some fancy talk. 696 00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, kind of like how Alice Jones was right about 697 00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 1: Bohemian Grove. That's right, Like, you know, we're aware of that, 698 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:56,040 Speaker 1: but that doesn't mean everything they say is true. 699 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:58,880 Speaker 2: That's exactly right. But oftentimes, you know, if you have 700 00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,360 Speaker 2: zealous followers, they will point to that thing as proof 701 00:43:03,400 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 2: positive that you are you know, what you say you are, 702 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:07,440 Speaker 2: and that you are some sort of messiah. 703 00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,000 Speaker 1: And if you read more about the profit, what you'll 704 00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: see is that he was a propagandist. He was very 705 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: much quote unquote about that life. He wanted to reject 706 00:43:21,120 --> 00:43:24,719 Speaker 1: to these the normalization, like I said, of various quote 707 00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,800 Speaker 1: unquote white cultural things, said, you know, guys, stop drinking, 708 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: which is great because alcoholism was and is a huge 709 00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:38,000 Speaker 1: danger to Native communities. He said, look, we just wear 710 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,919 Speaker 1: clothing from animal skins and furs like we always did. 711 00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:44,760 Speaker 2: No individual can own land. 712 00:43:45,239 --> 00:43:49,200 Speaker 1: And then he also had some more problematic stuff like 713 00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:57,400 Speaker 1: don't inter marry with any Europeans. Also, we should burn witches. Ooh, okay, 714 00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:58,399 Speaker 1: that last one. 715 00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:00,880 Speaker 2: That one didn't well, did it? 716 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: No? 717 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:01,919 Speaker 2: Yeah? 718 00:44:01,960 --> 00:44:04,040 Speaker 1: I wonder where he put when he was like listing 719 00:44:04,120 --> 00:44:07,239 Speaker 1: off his things. Did he just start trying? Did he 720 00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:08,520 Speaker 1: put witches at the end? 721 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 2: Did he put the witches before, like animal first? So 722 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 2: he says, like booz booze is bad. You know, we 723 00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:15,839 Speaker 2: can't own the land. 724 00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 3: We should burn the witches and you know what, I think. 725 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:21,000 Speaker 1: I think it was a mid game slip in as well. 726 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, should we also slam in the back of our dragula? Yes, yes, 727 00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 2: we speaking ditches and burning witches while we're at it. 728 00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:31,040 Speaker 2: You know, I'm just sorry. I never Rob Zombies in 729 00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:34,200 Speaker 2: my Power Man is. Oh yeah, no, Rob. They were 730 00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,200 Speaker 2: very prop They're very in the same wheel. Actually, I 731 00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:39,560 Speaker 2: think the power Man five thousand dude is Rob Zombie's 732 00:44:39,640 --> 00:44:42,319 Speaker 2: like cousin or brother. It's like his younger brother. I 733 00:44:42,320 --> 00:44:45,040 Speaker 2: think that's right. Yeah, well, let's let's verify this because 734 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,399 Speaker 2: they're on nineteen ninety nine nostalgia for you guys at 735 00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:51,640 Speaker 2: the tail end of an episode. We've promised curses, y'all. 736 00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:55,279 Speaker 2: We've promised curses. But as Max pointed out off air, 737 00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,640 Speaker 2: you got to talk about the man before you can 738 00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,520 Speaker 2: get to the curse, because he also has to die 739 00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,440 Speaker 2: in order for this curse to kind of start to percolate. 740 00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,520 Speaker 1: And that is Spider One, the frontman of Powerman five thousand, 741 00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:13,279 Speaker 1: younger brother of Rob Zombie. I feel like they're in 742 00:45:13,320 --> 00:45:17,080 Speaker 1: it to coomsa Tenska Watawa situation. Yes, a little more wholesome, 743 00:45:17,120 --> 00:45:20,359 Speaker 1: you got there, But they're probably just a great hang 744 00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: on Thanksgiving, you know what I mean. I bet they 745 00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:26,000 Speaker 1: sure they see my chill dudes, So you're right, nol. 746 00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:30,680 Speaker 1: We had to give you the first part the true 747 00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: real world events, and we hope you join us this Thursday, 748 00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: because later this week we're going to get to the 749 00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:41,000 Speaker 1: real juicy stuff. In the next episode of Ridiculous History, 750 00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:45,080 Speaker 1: Part two of Takamsa's Curse, we're going to dive into 751 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,840 Speaker 1: the idea of the curse here in specific, curses in general, 752 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,840 Speaker 1: and the examples of the curse that the examples of 753 00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:58,400 Speaker 1: the curse that apparently, according to true believers, continue to 754 00:45:58,520 --> 00:46:03,359 Speaker 1: haunt us. Presidents this day. Spoiler William Henry Harrison is 755 00:46:03,360 --> 00:46:04,920 Speaker 1: the first guy who gets the curse. 756 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,719 Speaker 2: Yeah to comment, that's for sure. Yeah, definitely the heel 757 00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:13,120 Speaker 2: of our story here. But speaking of our story, huge 758 00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 2: thanks to super producer and research associated straordinary Max Williams 759 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,520 Speaker 2: for all of your incredible work on this research brief. 760 00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:23,840 Speaker 2: We're looking forward to getting into part two. Max's brother 761 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,440 Speaker 2: actual brother by blood in fact, Alex Williams, who composed 762 00:46:28,480 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 2: our theme. 763 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, Hey, Max, Between you and Alex, who's the Tenskawatawa, 764 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:34,960 Speaker 1: who's the takumso I'm Takumsa. 765 00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:37,600 Speaker 3: He's definitely the prophet, even though I am the younger brother. 766 00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: I feel like though that's the kind of question when 767 00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:45,200 Speaker 1: I asked siblings, everybody will want to be tacumso clearly right. 768 00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:47,080 Speaker 2: I don't know, Alex is weird. He might want to 769 00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:47,720 Speaker 2: be the prophet. 770 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:53,520 Speaker 1: Okay loves underdog And thanks also to Jonathan Strickland ak 771 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:55,960 Speaker 1: the Quister. That's just two times who've said the name. 772 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:56,960 Speaker 2: Thanks to A. J. 773 00:46:57,239 --> 00:47:02,160 Speaker 1: Jacobs, the Puzzler will be returning or may eaves Jeffcoat 774 00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:08,879 Speaker 1: Christopher hassiotis did good. Folks over at Encyclopedia Britannica. We've 775 00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: got a history of them coming up along the way, 776 00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: and thanks to you know, I'm excited for part two. 777 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:25,200 Speaker 2: Same here. We'll see you next time, folks. For more 778 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,799 Speaker 2: podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 779 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:30,880 Speaker 2: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.