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Speaker 1: In this podcast, we're going to talk frankly but sensitively

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Speaker 1: about issues some people might find disturbing, including rape and suicide.

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Speaker 1: If you or someone you know is suicidal in the

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Speaker 1: US Down nine eighty eight, check out this podcast notes

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Speaker 1: page for information on LGBT plus mental health resources in

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Speaker 1: your community.

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Speaker 2: This is Shattering the System. I'm Sinarian Glinton. By now

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Speaker 2: you're likely familiar with the name at Buck. Ed Buck

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Speaker 2: was indicted on two counts of distribution of methan fetamine

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Speaker 2: resulting in death. He was accused of four counts of

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Speaker 2: distribution of methen fetamine, one count of maintaining a drug

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Speaker 2: involved premises, and two counts of enticement to travel in

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Speaker 2: inter state commerce for prostitution. The two counts of distribution

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Speaker 2: resulting in death were for the deaths of Jammel Moore

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Speaker 2: and Timothy Dean.

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Speaker 3: We believed these victims, We believe that what they said

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Speaker 3: happened to them actually happened to them, and we wanted

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Speaker 3: to keep Buck from doing this to anybody else.

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Speaker 2: Lindsey Bailey is an assistant US attorney. She was the

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Speaker 2: lead attorney in the case against that Buck. She lays

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Speaker 2: out each of the charges first, there were the distribution

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Speaker 2: charges that didn't result in death. Those were for the

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Speaker 2: four victims who testified and survived.

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Speaker 3: We had four victims here who because they lived and survived,

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Speaker 3: their cases were just charged as distribution cases. There's no

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Speaker 3: mandatory minimum. The statutory maximum is I think in that

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Speaker 3: case twenty years.

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Speaker 2: And this is a distribute for like. Yes, then there

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Speaker 2: were two counts of enticing someone to travel across state

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Speaker 2: borders for prostitution. That was because of the evidence that

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Speaker 2: Buck had offered to and paid for Jamel to travel

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Speaker 2: from Texas to California for sex. And then there was

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Speaker 2: one count of maintaining a drug involved premises. Well, that

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Speaker 2: seems straightforward. Buck was accused of using his home as

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Speaker 2: a drug house. Bailey says none of those charges had

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Speaker 2: mandatory maximums.

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Speaker 3: Though it always drives me crazy when they say, well,

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Speaker 3: they're looking at a maximum sentence of this. Usually when

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Speaker 3: you're charged with that crime, it's very rare that anyone

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Speaker 3: is sentenced anywhere near the maximum. So for those cases,

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Speaker 3: you're looking at, you know, a year, five years, maybe

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Speaker 3: if you're lucky, ten years for that type of distribution.

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Speaker 3: For the death resulting cases, now, this is.

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Speaker 2: The important part. The real charges against ed Buck, the

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Speaker 2: ones that the government thought would be a deterrent, where

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Speaker 2: the distribution resulting in death that ed Buck gave Jamal

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Speaker 2: and Timothy the drugs that killed them.

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Speaker 3: I distributed drugs to you and you died, or I

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Speaker 3: distributed them to someone and someone died, whether it's methamphetamine

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Speaker 3: in Buck's case, or you know. More often we're seeing

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Speaker 3: this with fentanyl cases. It's an automatic twenty year mandatory minimum,

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Speaker 3: and then the guidelines range is much higher, so you're

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Speaker 3: looking at a minimum of twenty years, but it could

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Speaker 3: go up anywhere to life imprisonment. He is in class

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Speaker 3: all in his own and I think the reason that

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Speaker 3: our office brought charges against mister Buck is we saw

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Speaker 3: an individual who was essentially praying on vulnerable communities with impunity.

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Speaker 3: He seemed to have no remorse for what he was doing.

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Speaker 3: He was putting people's lives in danger on a regular basis,

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Speaker 3: and not just people, but specifically vulnerable communities. Really what

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Speaker 3: he was doing was pretty horrific, and so there was

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Speaker 3: a strong desire to bring charges specifically, I think against

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Speaker 3: mister Buck because of the number of victims he had,

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Speaker 3: because he was doing this with impunity because multiple people

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Speaker 3: had died as a result of his actions, and so

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Speaker 3: for mister Buck, I think that was the main reason

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Speaker 3: that we were looking to bring charges against him as

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Speaker 3: opposed to know your average drug dealer on the street.

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Speaker 2: After nine days of hearing testimony that even a judge

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Speaker 2: found disturbing, the.

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Speaker 4: Trial recessed for the jury to figure out a verdict.

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Speaker 2: Jonathan Unger is one of the producers of this podcast.

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Speaker 2: Jonathan and I were there for the reading of the

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Speaker 2: verdict in the case of the United States versus ed Buck.

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Speaker 4: That happened at nine point thirty in the morning of

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Speaker 4: They were back with their verdict by one fifty pm

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Speaker 4: that same afternoon, and I think that shocked everyone.

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Speaker 2: Because it.

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Speaker 4: Hinted that it was a unanimous decision. But the fact

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Speaker 4: that happened that quickly, that kind of also gave over

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Speaker 4: one hope as we as we entered the viewing room

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Speaker 4: before the verdict.

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Speaker 2: This was the moment ed Buck was charged with nine

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Speaker 2: federal counts. In the rooms set aside for visitors, the

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Speaker 2: room quieted as people strained to hear the judge over

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Speaker 2: the closed circuit television. I remember thinking how many queer

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Speaker 2: people there were assembled in this very non gay setting.

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Speaker 2: This was a first for me. We were all in

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Speaker 2: our version of courtroom drag, trying to serve respectability, realness,

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Speaker 2: and I remember seeing multiple people bolt make the sign

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Speaker 2: of the Cross. When the moment came.

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Speaker 5: Guilty guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty

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Speaker 5: on all nine counts. Buck gave no indication that he

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Speaker 5: even heard the verdict. I don't remember hearing teers or shouts.

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Speaker 5: It was as if the entire courtroom exhaled guilty on

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Speaker 5: the two counts. With mandatory minimums, ed Buck would have

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Speaker 5: to serve jail time for his role in the deaths

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Speaker 5: of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean. Jamel Moore's mother, Letitia Nixon,

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Speaker 5: would get a guilty verdict exactly four years after Jammel's

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Speaker 5: tragic death.

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Speaker 6: A big weight has been lifted off of a need.

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Speaker 6: I know that we were going to get justice.

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Speaker 2: This is shattering the system. I'm scenario Glinton. We hear

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Speaker 2: from the family of Jamel Moore and Timothy Dean, and

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Speaker 2: the government learns that ed Buck wasn't alone in exploiting

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Speaker 2: the gay community.

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Speaker 7: He exclusively targeted gay men who he met on the

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Speaker 7: dating app Grinder, and when he met them, he used

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Speaker 7: gay dating culture in a way that allowed him to

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Speaker 7: really violently exploit these men.

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Speaker 2: The aftermath and the lessons learned from ed Buck, that's

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Speaker 2: after this quick break. This is shattering the system. I'm

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Speaker 2: sinarian Glinton. Jurors found ed Buck guilty on all nine charges.

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Speaker 2: Remember the important ones were the two with mandatory minimums.

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Speaker 2: When the judge read the verdict, there was silence, and

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Speaker 2: as the courthouse emptied, it seemed as if an emotional

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Speaker 2: valve had opened. Tears flowed from the spectators, with family,

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Speaker 2: victims and lawyers embracing as they walked out of the

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Speaker 2: courthouse into the blazing California sun. The viewers of the

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Speaker 2: trial were a genuinely diverse group of people that was

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Speaker 2: in star contrast to the other lack of diversity in

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Speaker 2: the LA press that gathered to cover the trial. The

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Speaker 2: divide between the family and friends the victims, and the

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Speaker 2: largely white straight press corps was clear as the families

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Speaker 2: stepped up to the microphones on the steps of the

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Speaker 2: Federal courthouse.

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Speaker 8: My name is.

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Speaker 6: Nixon, Joanelmore's mom. I'm so happy and pleased that we

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Speaker 6: could put this part behind us. We want to send

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Speaker 6: a message to all the other at Bucks, y'all better

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Speaker 6: stop what y'all doing. We're gonna get y'all.

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Speaker 2: If Jamel Moore's mother was happy with a guilty verdict,

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Speaker 2: that would mean that the work to get justice was done,

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Speaker 2: she would continue with the civil suit that would seek

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Speaker 2: to get ed Buck to be financially responsible for the

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Speaker 2: damage he'd done.

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Speaker 6: I saw want to put a play out to all

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Speaker 6: of the politicians, all the ed Bucks' friends, so retire

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Speaker 6: that dirty money, return it back to us so that

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Speaker 6: we can help these other victims, and we can go

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Speaker 6: forward in our civil suit. All the ed Bucks friends,

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Speaker 6: these dirty politicians. Y'all know who y'all are. It's all

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Speaker 6: I have to say.

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Speaker 9: There a lot of pressure to get law enforcement to

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Speaker 9: pack to the cases. Yes, are you an open out

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Speaker 9: doubtful change and help me?

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Speaker 6: Almost definitely. This really increased my faith.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the verdict in twenty twenty one is what many

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Speaker 2: of the friends and family would call a victory in

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Speaker 2: the West. One of the disappointments, though, would come with

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Speaker 2: the sentencing in twenty twenty two. The judge didn't give

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Speaker 2: Buck a life sentence. She stopped at what she called

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Speaker 2: an effective life sentence. Buck was sentenced to three hundred

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Speaker 2: and sixty months, that's thirty years in federal prison for

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Speaker 2: providing fatal doses of methamphetamine to two men who died

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Speaker 2: at his apartment after he injected them with the drug.

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Speaker 2: Buck was sixty seven at the time of sentencing. If

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Speaker 2: he gets out, he'll be ninety seven.

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Speaker 6: You know what, It's fine, he's sixty seven, he'll be

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Speaker 6: ninety seven. I'm happy with that. Yeah, this has been

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Speaker 6: almost five years since twenty seventeen when we couldn't get

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Speaker 6: Jackie Lacey to filing me charges and no one wanted

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Speaker 6: to touch this. This has been a long time coming. So

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Speaker 6: very happy and I'm just I'm ready to just put

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Speaker 6: this behind me and go, you know, ahead with healing

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Speaker 6: because I haven't been able to heal me, nor my

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Speaker 6: other kids, my mother, rest of my family. I'm just

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Speaker 6: I need to focus on healing. I came and did

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Speaker 6: what I had to do.

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Speaker 2: Letician Nixon was able to give an impact statement, and

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Speaker 2: she said Jammel was the love of her life and

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Speaker 2: how his death had upended her own life. The detail

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Speaker 2: that stands out was she explained how she'd been there

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Speaker 2: for patients as they were dying, and ed Buck had

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Speaker 2: let her son die naked and alone without anyone to

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Speaker 2: comfort him. Meanwhile, ed Buck would ask the court to

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Speaker 2: consider his activism in West Hollywood, including his fight for

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Speaker 2: animal rights. We're going to listen to the press conference

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Speaker 2: after the sentence single, so let's start with Letitia Nixon.

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Speaker 6: A big weight has been lifted off of me. I

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Speaker 6: knew that we were going to get just this. I

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Speaker 6: knew that he was going to get some time because

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Speaker 6: he's guilty. He had, you know, they got his own

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Speaker 6: factorah evidence that he kept hisself, so he basically convicted hisself.

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Speaker 9: So I'm happy, but you're still crushing they keep it

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Speaker 9: foll hear.

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Speaker 6: I'm a little frustrated, but I'm happy with the results.

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Speaker 9: I'm Joanne Campbell.

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Speaker 10: I'm not completely satisfied with it. Thirty years. I was

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Speaker 10: hoping for more time for this man that killed my brother.

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Speaker 10: But I can live with the thirty years knowing that

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Speaker 10: it's going to be a very long time before he

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Speaker 10: gets out, So I can live with that. But I'm

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Speaker 10: just so proud of the prosecutors that prosecuted this case

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Speaker 10: and the great job that they did to bring this

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Speaker 10: justice to this man. So no amount of time can

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Speaker 10: bring my brother back. But I feel some kind of

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Speaker 10: solace and some kind of renege for my family that

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Speaker 10: he will be in prison for a very long time.

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Speaker 9: What did you think about what it was said about

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Speaker 9: an accident.

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Speaker 10: That's not love when you kill someone. And I don't believe.

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Speaker 10: He was a friend to my brother and he loved

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Speaker 10: my brother, so that was just something he was saying,

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Speaker 10: hopefully to get some sympathy from the judge. But I

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Speaker 10: don't believe and buy any of it. If law enforcement

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Speaker 10: had acted in the beginning when Jamel Moore was killed,

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Speaker 10: it wouldn't have been a Timothy Jean's death because this

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Speaker 10: man would have been put away. So I do believe

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Speaker 10: that they should have acted a lot quickly and we

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Speaker 10: would be here and thank you everything. Hi. I'm Joyce Jackson,

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Speaker 10: Timothy Jan's sister. Today is a good day, So not

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Speaker 10: the best day, but it is good and I can

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Speaker 10: go home today feeling a whole lot better and try

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Speaker 10: to get my life back together. And when I say that,

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Speaker 10: I have not been able to visit my brother's grave site,

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Speaker 10: so I can go home now and go to his

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Speaker 10: grave site and have a conversation with him. There is

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Speaker 10: victory in the West. I did want to see more

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Speaker 10: time for him. However, I'm good with these thirty years.

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Speaker 7: Where's brother Ferry.

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Speaker 10: He's in Tampa, Florida at a beautiful grave site. So

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Speaker 10: I'm glad that I'll be able to leave here and

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Speaker 10: finally go to his grave site. I just wish that

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Speaker 10: this date would have never occurred. However, we're here. We've

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Speaker 10: got to deal with it, and I'm ready to start

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Speaker 10: healing because I have not been able to heal, and

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Speaker 10: that's been one of the most hardest things for me.

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Speaker 11: Hi.

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Speaker 12: Everyone, my name is Dane, last name Brown. I'm the

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Speaker 12: final victim of bed bunts. My response to since seeing

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Speaker 12: it's like they said one and a half times what

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Speaker 12: he's old, and I don't feel that it's fair for

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Speaker 12: all the victims because he only got a little bit

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Speaker 12: of what he deserves. It's something better than nothing. But

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Speaker 12: you know, I wish the courts would have done more.

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Speaker 12: It should have been a lesson. It should have been swift,

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Speaker 12: should have been hard, it should have been more, you know,

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Speaker 12: regardless of his age. He's done a lot of wrong

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Speaker 12: things to a lot of people. He's destroyed families, and

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Speaker 12: he's destroyed lives, so he needed to be It needed

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Speaker 12: to be a lesson to other people out there who

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Speaker 12: are trying to do the same things, are not knowing

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Speaker 12: that they're doing the same things. They needed to They

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Speaker 12: needed to see that the government doesn't play around when

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Speaker 12: it comes to lives. And we got some but not all.

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Speaker 12: I'm grateful that he won't get out for a very

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Speaker 12: long time, but I wish it was more done. And

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Speaker 12: that's pretty much all I have to say. It should

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Speaker 12: have be in life, should have been a live.

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Speaker 7: Tell us about your experience.

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Speaker 12: Going through this trial. I try my best not to

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Speaker 12: think about it. I'm trying to take each day as

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Speaker 12: it comes and knowing that you know, each date gets

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Speaker 12: better and better. But coming back to the trial, it

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Speaker 12: takes me back to a different time in my life,

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Speaker 12: and I'm glad that I'm past that point.

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Speaker 9: Good afternoon, everyone. I'm Tracy Wilkinson. I'm the United States

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Speaker 9: Attorney for the Central District of California.

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Speaker 2: Tracy Bolcason would succeed Nick Hanna as US attorney briefly

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Speaker 2: with me or.

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Speaker 9: The ausas that prosecuted this case, ed Buck committed horrible,

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Speaker 9: unimaginable crimes. The United States Attorney's Office took it very seriously,

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Speaker 9: the jury took it seriously, and today the judge took

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Speaker 9: it seriously and sends him to third years in prisoned.

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Speaker 9: It was not the life term that we had advocated

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Speaker 9: so persuasively for, but it is still a significant sentence

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Speaker 9: that recognizes his serious, serious crimes. And I know that

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Speaker 9: no sentence, frankly, even a life sentence, would not have

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Speaker 9: been enough to bring back your family members to undo

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Speaker 9: the harm that's been done to you. But I hope

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Speaker 9: that you will now be able to begin the healing

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Speaker 9: process because you know that this man is going to

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Speaker 9: be in prison for a very long time. Hotey, you agree.

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Speaker 13: I'm immensely grateful for the continuing support of the victims

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Speaker 13: and families who have entrusted us with the memory and

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Speaker 13: justice for their loved ones.

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Speaker 9: It has been immeasurable in terms of.

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Speaker 13: Not only building the case, but giving us the passion

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Speaker 13: to keep pursuing it even when we sought when we

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Speaker 13: faced adversity in this case. And I also just want

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Speaker 13: to say that I think in my opinion, one of

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Speaker 13: the things that was the most persuasive today were the

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Speaker 13: statements of the victims who came in.

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Speaker 9: And gravely spoke.

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Speaker 13: Again.

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Speaker 14: They some of them testified a trial, some of them

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Speaker 14: weren't able to and were able to give make their

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Speaker 14: voices heard today. But I think of all of the

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Speaker 14: things that happened today, that was one of the most

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Speaker 14: powerful and.

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Speaker 3: One of the most persuasive things.

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Speaker 14: And you know, I am grateful to the US Attorney's office,

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Speaker 14: and particularly grateful to Chelsea, who is a wonderful partner

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Speaker 14: to work with on this case. And I'm just grateful

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Speaker 14: that I was able to have any sort of an

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Speaker 14: impact on the line of these people who had met

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Speaker 14: and who were hurt so badly by ed Buck, and

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Speaker 14: that we were able to receive some sort of justice today.

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Speaker 1: So thank you.

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Speaker 2: The prosecutor, Lindsay Bailey points out what a chore it

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Speaker 2: was for victims to testify. Ed Buck picked victims who

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Speaker 2: wouldn't be believed, and we heard from those who testified

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Speaker 2: that the police weren't kind. They would show up early

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Speaker 2: in the morning to do interviews, and many of those

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Speaker 2: who testified were still dealing with the horror of dredging

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Speaker 2: up some of the worst moments of their lives.

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Speaker 13: He took a tremendous amount of courage to do what

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Speaker 13: they did. They did not want fifteen minutes of fame,

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Speaker 13: as the defense counsel accused them of. They were viciously

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Speaker 13: attacked on cross examination, and they held up remarkably, and

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Speaker 13: I am so proud of how valiantly they testified and

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Speaker 13: kept their heads hel high.

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Speaker 2: It would be a victory to get nine guilties. Here's

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Speaker 2: Corey McClain, one of Jamel Moore's friends over the years.

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Speaker 2: He was there for most of the moments along the

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Speaker 2: road to get ed Buck convicted.

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Speaker 8: So this is Jamel's ashes, and I take him with me.

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Speaker 8: I've spread them in Hawaii, in Miami, and in the

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Speaker 8: Hollywood Hills, and on days like this, I like to

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Speaker 8: wake them up to channel his energy and to answer

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Speaker 8: your question about the sentencing. He feels like this a

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Speaker 8: slap in the face, like thirty years is stupid.

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Speaker 9: Like it is.

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Speaker 8: However, we fought long and hard and it's been so draining.

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Speaker 8: So we have to just accept this and move on.

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Speaker 8: So hopefully we all find healing in peace. And I

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Speaker 8: pray that everyone that's affected by this gets some type

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Speaker 8: of counseling. If it's not by the government or someone

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Speaker 8: that they can provide it to these victims that had

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Speaker 8: to relive these situations over But from this moment on,

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Speaker 8: I don't want to think of Jamail Moore and ed

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Speaker 8: Buck in the same sentence. I want to separate the

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Speaker 8: two and just find healing in peace from this moving forward,

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Speaker 8: and thank you all for being a part of this journeys. Yeah,

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Speaker 8: I travel the world, so everywhere I go, I take

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Speaker 8: him with me, just so we can keep creating memories.

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Speaker 8: Because I believe in energy. His energy is still here

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Speaker 8: with us.

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Speaker 2: The Fed's got their man. Ed Buck is likely to

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Speaker 2: spend most of his life in the federal prison system

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Speaker 2: when he gets out of jail. If he does, he

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Speaker 2: will be ninety seven years old, nine and guilties. How

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Speaker 2: does that feel?

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Speaker 11: It's indescribable.

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Speaker 2: Chelsea Norell was one of the lawyers tried ed Buck.

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Speaker 11: It was the ultimate relief to be able to secure

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Speaker 11: that for the people that had stood by this case

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Speaker 11: from the beginning, for the victims, for the family of

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Speaker 11: their loved ones who perished. It was it was surreal.

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Speaker 11: I had in my mind and vision tearing those words,

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Speaker 11: and it was out of body to actually hear them.

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Speaker 11: Come back on the four year anniversary of Jimmelmore's death

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Speaker 11: and have that be a new memory for his mom,

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Speaker 11: who said that that was the worst day of her life.

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Speaker 11: And now it's also the anniversary of the day she

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Speaker 11: got justice for her son. And that's just a gift

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Speaker 11: that I will always be so grateful for that. The

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Speaker 11: jury returned on that day.

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Speaker 2: At Buck's landlord filed to victim two months after he

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Speaker 2: was arrested. It would only be a couple of months

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Speaker 2: before the verdict in this case, before ed Buck's things

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Speaker 2: were finally removed from one two three four North Laurel Avenue.

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Speaker 2: Both families would pursue civil cases against Buck, but the

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Speaker 2: case of the US versus ed Buck would end with

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Speaker 2: ed Buck being found guilty. Here's Lindsey Bailey, the prosecutor.

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Speaker 3: You know, sentencing is not necessarily just about the individual.

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Speaker 3: It's about the message that it sends to the community

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Speaker 3: as a whole. And so we were arguing specifically for

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Speaker 3: a quote life sentence because we wanted to send the

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Speaker 3: message to the community that like, it's not okay for

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Speaker 3: you to pray on vulnerable people. It's not okay for

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Speaker 3: you to assert power over people who have less power

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Speaker 3: than you and really send that home to anybody else

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Speaker 3: who who may be in that sort of a position.

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Speaker 3: But look, at the end of the day, it was

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Speaker 3: a thirty year sentence, which for someone like Buck, who

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Speaker 3: is you know, a lifelong Matthews or in his sixties,

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Speaker 3: is essentially going to be a life sentence. He's not

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Speaker 3: just going to be walking around free after thirty years,

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Speaker 3: if he's even still alive then. So I think we

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Speaker 3: were disappointed in the sense of the message that a

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Speaker 3: life sentence would have sent both to the community as

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Speaker 3: a whole and to the families of the victims and

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Speaker 3: the victims themselves that this is a case that was

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Speaker 3: going to be taken seriously. But I think as a

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Speaker 3: practical matter, you know, and I think my speculation is

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Speaker 3: that this is what the judge was kind of going for,

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Speaker 3: is that this is effectively a life sentence for him,

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Speaker 3: even if it is not quote a life sentence.

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Speaker 2: The defense would file a motion during the trial to

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Speaker 2: ask the court to quit ed Buck before the jury

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Speaker 2: could deliberate, because all the evidence hinged on quote the

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Speaker 2: testimony of a parade of financially motivated, houseless individuals and

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Speaker 2: drug addicts and should not have been believed. The judge

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Speaker 2: denied the motion, and each of those guilty verdicts showed

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Speaker 2: a jury did believe those black men. This is shattering

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Speaker 2: the system more after this quick break, this is shattering

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Speaker 2: the system. I'm Sinari Glinton. Ed Buck's crimes weren't in isolation.

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Speaker 2: Jamel Moore died months before the Me Too movement began.

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Speaker 2: In earnest, Bill Cosby would go on trial for allegedly

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Speaker 2: drugging women in his home, and that was between the

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Speaker 2: deaths of Jamal and Timothy. The porn actor Ron Jeremy

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Speaker 2: was accused of drugging women not very far from ed

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Speaker 2: Buck's apartment. Now, while Buck was awaiting trial, I got

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Speaker 2: a call from a friend. He's a performer, let's call

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Speaker 2: him Ricky. Ricky had been robbed at knife point by

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Speaker 2: a date on a hookup app. The man stole thousands

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Speaker 2: of dollars worth of equipment and even used my friend's

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Speaker 2: self phone to steal money out of his bank account.

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Speaker 2: It turns out that incident wasn't a one off. A

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Speaker 2: man named Derek Patterson had been specifically robbing gay men

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Speaker 2: on a dating app called Grinder. This time, the government's

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00:24:13,960 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: response would be very different than the way officials reacted

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Speaker 2: to the deaths of Timothy Dean and Jamel Moore.

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Speaker 7: My name's Jeremiah Levine, and I'm an assistant United States attorney.

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Speaker 7: That's a federal prosecutor here in Los Angeles, which is

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Speaker 7: the largest district of federal prosecution in the United States.

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Speaker 2: Let's pick up with my interview with Levine as I

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Speaker 2: was telling him the story of my friend who has

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Speaker 2: robbed and assaulted. Help me understand what Patterson was accused

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Speaker 2: of doing.

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Speaker 7: Sure, Patterson is accused of a string of about twenty

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Speaker 7: one robberies over the course of about three years. And

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Speaker 7: during that string of robberies, he he exclusively targeted gay

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Speaker 7: men who he met on the dating app Grinder, and

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Speaker 7: when he met them, he used a gay dating culture

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Speaker 7: in a way that allowed him to really violently exploit

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Speaker 7: these men for robbery.

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Speaker 2: Help me understand that, unpack that for people who may

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Speaker 2: not understand that, Like, you know, you've gone Grinder and like,

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Speaker 2: help me understand the like what happened if he showed

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Speaker 2: up at your house, the allegation. Sure, so his EMO.

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Speaker 7: What he did in most of the robberies is that

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Speaker 7: he would use a profile on the dating app Grinder

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Speaker 7: that looked alluring. He is a tall and handsome man,

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Speaker 7: and he would use a pretty lurid handle, something like

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Speaker 7: ten inches or eleven inches, which was intended to be

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00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,320
Speaker 7: a reference to the side of his penis, meant to

440
00:26:01,359 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 7: be attractive, and he would use that profile to lure

441
00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 7: his intended victims into meeting with him. And on Grinder,

442
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 7: it is fairly common that you will match with somebody,

443
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 7: chat pretty briefly sometimes you know, a few minutes, and

444
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 7: then be alone in private with that person with whom

445
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,880
Speaker 7: you've just matched in a matter of hours. And that's

446
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 7: something that Patterson did. Typically with some of his victims.

447
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 7: He would match with them on Grinder, put in very

448
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:41,399
Speaker 7: little time and effort, and then very quickly be alone

449
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:47,920
Speaker 7: with them. And that's one of the aspects of gay

450
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 7: dating culture that he used to exploit. I think it's

451
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:57,479
Speaker 7: more common to be very rapidly alone with someone in

452
00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:02,119
Speaker 7: Grinder culture than in other dating cultures. So once Patterson

453
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:08,120
Speaker 7: was in the residence, he would typically say, hey, can

454
00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 7: I use your phone to look at porn so we

455
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,720
Speaker 7: can get ready to have sex. That's another thing that

456
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 7: I think would be would maybe send up more of

457
00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 7: an alarm bell in another dating culture, but in grinder

458
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 7: dating culture that didn't seem to be particularly off putting

459
00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 7: to anybody. So he would right away get inside and

460
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 7: get the person's phone. Once he had the person's phone,

461
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:37,679
Speaker 7: ostensibly to look at porn to get ready for the

462
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 7: sexual encounter, he would start transferring the victim's money to himself.

463
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 7: Sometimes he would go straight from hey, can I have

464
00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 7: my phone back please, to beating the person or pepper

465
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:55,679
Speaker 7: spraying the person. Other times he would say that he

466
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 7: had a gun and that he was going to murder

467
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 7: the person. Sometimes he would go get a kitchen knife

468
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:06,440
Speaker 7: and chase the victim around, slashing at them, sometimes actually

469
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 7: stabbing them with the knife, and eventually shortly thereafter he

470
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:13,280
Speaker 7: would make off with the phone, and then after he

471
00:28:13,320 --> 00:28:16,040
Speaker 7: had left the presence of the victim, continue to use

472
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 7: the phone to transfer himself money from their zell, from

473
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 7: their Venmo, from their cash app, and also to use

474
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 7: the purchasing power on their phone, whether through Apple Pay

475
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:29,400
Speaker 7: or some other mobile payment device, to purchase goods and services.

476
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,239
Speaker 2: So, I mean some of these allegations are this has

477
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: so many threads in so many gay stories, right, you

478
00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 2: could think of it as six degrees you know, it's

479
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 2: six degrees of separation. It's connected to you know, it's

480
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 2: connected to that buck. There was like so many you know,

481
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 2: using But the extraordinaryness of some of the things, like

482
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 2: the one that stands out to me is the opening

483
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:52,600
Speaker 2: up a line of credit.

484
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,520
Speaker 7: So the next kind of level of complexity up is

485
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 7: he would make purchases. He would some of these. Some

486
00:28:59,560 --> 00:29:02,000
Speaker 7: of his vic had Apple pay, so he would go

487
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 7: and purchase electronics, for example, I think he purchased air pods.

488
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 7: He then he the kind of the next level of

489
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 7: complexity up is he would sometimes purchase services. He would purchase,

490
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 7: on several occasions, nights at hotel rooms in Los Angeles.

491
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 7: And then he would also because he had all the

492
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 7: details of his victims and access to their accounts, he

493
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:37,520
Speaker 7: would even open up lines of credit. So I believe

494
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,600
Speaker 7: with Goldman. I believe that Apple has a partnership with

495
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:49,160
Speaker 7: Goldman Sachs. One of Patterson's victims already had an Apple

496
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 7: iTunes account, and Patterson parlayed that Apple account into a

497
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:59,960
Speaker 7: new line of credit with Goldman. So pretty sophisticated means.

498
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: Part of what makes this frightening is the number of

499
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 2: like for Grinder to work or these things to work,

500
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 2: the number of times that a gay man invites another

501
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 2: man that he does not know after you know, a

502
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: group of conversations that are like sup looking I mean

503
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: like one, I mean emojis sometimes yeah, and that and that.

504
00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean the number of times I've thought,

505
00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 2: did you just give me the code to your apartment building?

506
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 2: Which I will I just will remember because this is

507
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: a historic building. And but like, literally that is that's

508
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 2: happened me. It's so unbelievably frightening.

509
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 7: It's possible that this happens a lot more than we realize,

510
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 7: and that victims don't feel like they can they can

511
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 7: risk exposing themselves by talking to law enforcement, or maybe

512
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 7: they don't feel ashamed, but they don't feel like they're

513
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 7: likely to get their due from law enforcement. Patterson could

514
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 7: have evaded detection for much longer, and in fact, he

515
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,760
Speaker 7: did evade detection for years. It's a fairly you can

516
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 7: have a fake Grinder profile, and these days you can

517
00:31:20,320 --> 00:31:22,800
Speaker 7: wear a mask as You're walking into a building without

518
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 7: arousing a whole lot of suspicion and remain anonymous relative

519
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 7: to the security cameras in there, and perpetrayed a crime

520
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,200
Speaker 7: pretty anonymously. So I think this may happen more than

521
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 7: we realize.

522
00:31:37,360 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 2: You know, the resolution of the case is pretty swift,

523
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: relatively speaking, and strong. So help me understand one hundred

524
00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:47,880
Speaker 2: and eleven months in federal prison for targeting and robbing

525
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 2: gay men in Los Angeles, eighty four thousand dollars in restitution.

526
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 2: But the key seems to be the hate crime part.

527
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 2: I mean, how often I remember many years ago the

528
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: thought of a gay man being charged with a hate

529
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 2: crime was an anomaly. How far have we come in

530
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,600
Speaker 2: the fifteen years. Tell me the facts of what the

531
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 2: judge did and what does this mean.

532
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 7: The law that applies here with regard to hate crime

533
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 7: enhancement is that if a criminal targets a victim because

534
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 7: of the victims perceived sexual orientation, and if the government

535
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 7: can prove that beyond a reasonable doubt, then the defendant

536
00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 7: is subject to a higher sense. There's a couple key

537
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:41,120
Speaker 7: things in there. One is the targeting has to be

538
00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 7: because of the perceived sexual orientation. That's all. If anybody

539
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,680
Speaker 7: targets a gay person because they are gay, they're subject

540
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:55,280
Speaker 7: to a hate crime enhancement. So what's really important there

541
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 7: is that I didn't say hate. Patterson need not hate

542
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 7: his victims. A person can be a member of the

543
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 7: group that they are targeting and still be subject to

544
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 7: the hate crime enhancement. So in that way, hate is

545
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 7: a little bit that hate crime enhancement is a little

546
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:21,280
Speaker 7: bit of a misnomer. Anytime criminal targets gay people or

547
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 7: members of certain other groups because of their perceived membership

548
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 7: in those groups, they can be subject to the hate

549
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 7: crime enhancement.

550
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: Can you help draw the parallels and the distinctions between

551
00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,680
Speaker 2: at Buck and say Derek Patterson.

552
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 7: I can tell you that in both instances, the defendants

553
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 7: preyed on vulnerable victims. Criminals prey on vulnerable victims. Sometimes

554
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 7: those people are economically disadvantaged, sometimes they are immigrants, and

555
00:33:57,560 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 7: sometimes they are members of the sexual preference minority. That

556
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,480
Speaker 7: the vulnerability of the victims is what I think draws

557
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 7: those cases together. I think it's really important not to

558
00:34:14,080 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 7: accidentally do any blame shifting or even sound like we're

559
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 7: doing any blame shifting. It is a great thing that

560
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,759
Speaker 7: we have reached a place where gay people can be

561
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 7: proud and can be meeting easily and online and not

562
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 7: in secret. That is fantastic. That is not the problem.

563
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 7: The problem is that there are bad people out there

564
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 7: exploiting it. There is a case in Texas where criminals

565
00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:53,880
Speaker 7: used grinder to kidnap victims, and some of the kidnappers

566
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 7: self identified as bisexual. So Patterson is not the only

567
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,279
Speaker 7: person who who's using this hack.

568
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: In our next episode, with ed Buck in prison, we

569
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 2: wanted to gaze the impact his crimes had on the

570
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: black queer community in Los Angeles and why black victims

571
00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:22,600
Speaker 2: are so often ignored. That's next on Shattering the System.

572
00:35:22,600 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening. Shattering the System is a production

573
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: of Macro Studios and iHeart Podcasts. I'm Your Host, Snari Glinton,

574
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 2: Follow me at so O naar I one on Instagram.

575
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:16,040
Speaker 2: Our series executive producers are Charles King, Asha Corpus, Win

576
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:21,000
Speaker 2: Royo Reccio, Jonathan Hunger, Lindsay Hoffman, and Scenario Glinton.

577
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 5: That's Me.

578
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:24,760
Speaker 2: Our show is co written and produced by Ralph Cooper.

579
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:29,160
Speaker 2: The third Erica Rodriguez, is our associate producer Dana Conway

580
00:36:29,280 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 2: is our archival producer. Chris Mann is our audio engineer.

581
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 2: Sound design and music provided by Chris Mann with pod

582
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 2: Shaper Special thanks to Karen Grigsby, Bates Portia, Amigas Robertson

583
00:36:41,719 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 2: and Lisa Pollock.

584
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 7: Stop attack, Attack

585
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,759
Speaker 2: The hotel, then