WEBVTT - How Climate Migration Works 0:00:01.440 --> 0:00:04.920 Welcome to Stuff you should know, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:11.160 --> 0:00:14.239 Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and 0:00:14.280 --> 0:00:17.520 there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there, 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.119 and this is stuff you should know. The is it 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:22.680 getting hot in here? Is it just me? 0:00:22.920 --> 0:00:25.599 Edition? Uh? Yeah, that's right. Well, you know what we 0:00:25.600 --> 0:00:28.200 can do. We can just migrate to another part of 0:00:28.240 --> 0:00:30.760 the iHeart offices here. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:31.639 Yeah. 0:00:31.840 --> 0:00:33.199 Nice, a nice school studio. 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:37.720 Yeah, they really do keep them cool, frankly cold. 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:39.800 Yeah. And that's the last fun we're going to have 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:42.360 on this episode because this is not so fun. 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.320 That is not true. There's plenty of places for jokes. Okay, 0:00:46.360 --> 0:00:48.839 all right, good do you remember we did one on 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:51.159 comas and we had jokes, So come on, right, we 0:00:51.200 --> 0:00:51.720 can do this. 0:00:52.520 --> 0:00:53.400 Yeah, that's a good point. 0:00:54.440 --> 0:00:58.920 So we're talking climate migration and it's a really interesting topic. 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:02.480 This was your idea, actually, and I tip my hat 0:01:02.520 --> 0:01:06.200 to you than you and uh, I'm just joking. I'm 0:01:06.200 --> 0:01:07.240 not I'm not wearing a hat. 0:01:07.319 --> 0:01:08.160 See another joke. 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:13.640 So the thing that surprised me, So we're climate migration, 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:16.360 we should just tell people off the bat is where 0:01:16.400 --> 0:01:21.440 people have to move somewhere else because extreme weather, droughts, 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.360 basically anything extreme temperatures, anything that has to do with 0:01:26.440 --> 0:01:30.840 climate change based ruining where they live. That's climate migration 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:31.679 human wise. 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.720 Yes, like there's an animal climate migration we're not even 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:35.840 going to talk about. 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:38.760 No, we did a whole episode on plant migration that 0:01:38.920 --> 0:01:42.040 was due to climate too, So this is yes, that 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:46.600 was a good catch. This is human specific. And one 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.920 of the things that struck me about this is there's 0:01:49.000 --> 0:01:53.320 a there's not a lot of like solid agreement on 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:56.760 exactly how bad things are going to be and exactly 0:01:56.800 --> 0:01:59.360 how far people are going to have to move, and 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:01.760 even a moong the people who do agree, the experts 0:02:01.760 --> 0:02:04.680 who do generally agree on some stuff, there's still like, 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:06.400 I don't know that this is going to be as 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:09.040 bad as it's being portrayed, like say in the media. 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.600 Yeah, for sure. And you know, we'll get to some 0:02:12.720 --> 0:02:15.639 studies and stats and things. But the stats you got 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:17.880 to keep in mindor kind of a guess because as 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:21.040 Libya points out, or maybe we'll just talk about that 0:02:21.080 --> 0:02:22.320 when we get to the stats part. 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:25.680 Okay, but I just wanted to put I wanted to 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.639 put a lid on the hysteria because, like you said, 0:02:28.919 --> 0:02:31.520 we just don't know yet, and it might not be 0:02:31.560 --> 0:02:34.040 as bad as we think. There might be some pluses. 0:02:34.040 --> 0:02:36.919 There are definitely going to be some minuses, but it's 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.880 something that we're talking about now, and it's decades enough 0:02:39.880 --> 0:02:43.040 into the future that we have time to prepare for it. 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:45.800 It's kind of like we went from Okay, let's stop 0:02:45.840 --> 0:02:48.680 emitting greenhouse gases to Okay, it's too late for that. 0:02:48.760 --> 0:02:50.400 Now we have to figure out how to deal with 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:53.080 the repercussions of that. That's where we're at. But we 0:02:53.160 --> 0:02:55.359 have a little bit of time, and if we start 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:58.560 thinking about and talking about how to do this smartly 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:03.600 and responsibly without again becoming hysterical and overplanning and overdoing it, 0:03:04.400 --> 0:03:07.079 we could do this right and make it as comfortable 0:03:07.080 --> 0:03:07.800 as possible. 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:12.240 Yeah, we being specifically the United States because there are 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:14.080 other parts of the world that are already sort of 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:18.360 proactive rather than kind of, like you said, being reactive 0:03:18.440 --> 0:03:22.679 and waiting when potential refugees are just sort of at 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.080 the border saying like we have no place to go 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:28.839 because our have our place almost said habitat. I guess 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:30.120 humans have a habitat, right. 0:03:30.639 --> 0:03:34.720 Yeah, sure, is that true? Yeah, every animal has a habitat. 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:36.600 Okay, I didn't know if I was being callous by 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:38.520 considering us all just animals. 0:03:38.840 --> 0:03:40.280 Were you being a speciest? 0:03:41.520 --> 0:03:45.520 Maybe so? But if speaking of the US, you know, 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.600 you do hear a lot of talk about that kind 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:49.280 of thing, like, oh, people are going to be coming 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.280 into our country. You know, depending on who you talk 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:54.200 to in this country, some people might welcome them, some 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:57.600 people might not. But as Livia is very as student 0:03:57.680 --> 0:04:01.280 to point out, generally what we're talking about nowadays, the 0:04:01.360 --> 0:04:05.560 more common thing that you're seeing is people people don't 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:08.960 want to leave their home, you know, so they'll move 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:12.120 as kind of close as they can to where they're from, 0:04:12.360 --> 0:04:14.160 rather than say, hey, let's just pick up and go 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:17.080 to a completely different country where I know nothing about 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.839 it and I don't speak the language. Like what's generally 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.000 happening is if there's a climate issue, like let's say, 0:04:23.040 --> 0:04:24.520 which could look like a lot of things, so we're 0:04:24.520 --> 0:04:25.960 going to talk about a lot of them. It could 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.839 mean I just can't farm here anymore because it's so 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:33.840 drought prone, or there was a my coastline is disappearing, 0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:37.039 or there was a natural disaster here so I have 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:40.600 to leave. People want to move close to where they are, 0:04:40.640 --> 0:04:42.359 so they're generally saying, like, all right, I can't be 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.000 out here in the farm area anymore, so let's move 0:04:45.040 --> 0:04:46.919 toward the urban centers. And that's why a lot of 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:49.880 these urban centers in the global South are popping at 0:04:49.880 --> 0:04:50.320 the seams. 0:04:51.360 --> 0:04:55.120 Yeah, and it's gonna definitely get more poppy for sure 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:57.479 as we go. Yeah, but as it stands right now, 0:04:57.800 --> 0:05:00.719 especially say like you can take California for an example, 0:05:02.480 --> 0:05:06.120 they deal with wildfires like that's just a fact of life, 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.640 and it's getting to be a much more frequent fact 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:12.599 of life. So if you leave your house because there's 0:05:12.600 --> 0:05:16.160 a wildfire in your backyard, you are technically a climate 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:20.240 migrant right then. But if you go back and rebuild 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:24.640 or your house didn't end up burning down, you're basically 0:05:24.680 --> 0:05:28.120 following the current pattern of climate migration. You're leaving long 0:05:28.240 --> 0:05:31.320 enough for you to take yourself out of harm's way 0:05:31.680 --> 0:05:35.360 during the disaster the extreme weather event, and then going back. 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:39.599 But if you do that enough times, some people are 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.360 going to just get tired of that and they're eventually 0:05:42.400 --> 0:05:46.120 not going to go back. And that's kind of like 0:05:46.200 --> 0:05:49.320 how climate migration, at least say in the United States 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:52.880 right now, is starting to look or starting to starting 0:05:52.880 --> 0:05:54.880 to establish itself, right. 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:58.440 But the idea is that I guess, if you're moving 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:02.240 away from where wildfires are more rampant, you're going to 0:06:02.320 --> 0:06:05.480 move to a place probably as close as you can, 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:07.920 unless you know, in America, if you have like family 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:09.760 on the other side of the country or something where 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:12.720 those wildfires generally don't happy, maybe you'll do that. But 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:17.000 if we're talking about countries, you're probably moving within your country. 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.120 And within your country there is not like, oh, well, 0:06:21.560 --> 0:06:24.320 you know, I'm at a place where the climate problem 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:29.480 isn't a problem, so it's not solving a bigger problem, 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:30.360 you know what I'm saying. 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:33.960 Yeah, and even more so, like if you're a migrant, 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:36.880 even within your own country, like you said, say like 0:06:36.920 --> 0:06:40.360 to an urban center or something like that, a lot 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:42.440 of times when you show up, you might show up 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.200 with all of your neighbors, your entire community, maybe your 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:48.200 entire region. If the say, like the drought is bad 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.800 enough and the city's not like, hey, we just happen 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:53.960 to have all this extra free housing for you guys, 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.880 so come on in. Very frequently you'll end up in 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:00.119 what amounts to a refugee camp. It's a climate refugee cam, 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.080 but it's essentially the same thing as any other refugee camp. 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:07.560 There's usually not running water, there's not good infrastructure. And 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:09.920 this is a point that I hadn't thought of, but 0:07:10.040 --> 0:07:16.160 Lvia pointed out, you're maybe even more vulnerable to natural 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:19.280 disasters now because you live in a tent. No, if 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:23.000 a sandstorm comes along, you're in trouble because you just 0:07:23.080 --> 0:07:25.680 are in a tent rather than say the house that 0:07:25.720 --> 0:07:28.119 you had to leave because your farm was no longer 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:29.120 producing crops. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.640 Yeah, and also you're you're living like perhaps in like 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:35.600 a shanty town on the outskirts of town, and you're 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.800 going to see increased poverty. That's going to be an 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:43.320 unstable situation, and then violence comes along oftentimes in these places. 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:47.360 She found one study from twenty twenty two of Central 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:53.000 African migrants, five percent reported that they moved specifically for 0:07:53.120 --> 0:07:57.640 environmental reasons, but fifty percent said yeah, but that played 0:07:57.640 --> 0:07:59.880 a part in the decision to leave, Like whether or 0:07:59.920 --> 0:08:02.840 not they're saying, like, no, the drought's too bad here, 0:08:02.840 --> 0:08:06.720 I'm leaving, or some places are just the extreme heat 0:08:06.800 --> 0:08:09.320 is becoming so bad as people just can't live there anymore. 0:08:10.760 --> 0:08:13.280 They're not saying I'm moving just because of that, but 0:08:13.480 --> 0:08:15.200 half of them were saying, like, yeah, that was a 0:08:15.240 --> 0:08:20.680 factor that led to this whole mess. 0:08:19.800 --> 0:08:24.280 Right, Yeah. And there's probably the most famous, most well studied, 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:29.920 recent example of climate migration leading to violent conflict was 0:08:29.960 --> 0:08:34.120 the Syrian Civil War. Yeah, between two thousand and six 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:37.240 and twenty ten, there was a really really bad drought 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:40.280 in Syria and the surrounding region and a lot of 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:45.000 people had to move to the city or cities, and 0:08:45.120 --> 0:08:47.360 they were like a lot of people were displaced and 0:08:47.440 --> 0:08:51.559 they joined people who had already arrived as refugees before 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:57.560 from Iraq and from Palestine, and so all these people 0:08:57.559 --> 0:09:00.560 are there, the government is basically ignoring them, tending like 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:03.720 they're not there. Their farms are being lost, they're getting 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.920 zero help from the government, which has become a neoliberal 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.560 under Bashar al Assad, who took over from his father, 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.360 and they start the UNRESK. It's bad enough that a 0:09:14.400 --> 0:09:19.200 civil war starts, like there's a rebel insurgency to topple Asad. 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:22.880 And it actually ended up working. It didn't at first 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:25.640 because a sod famously used chemical weapons on his own 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.600 people and he got everything under control, but then they 0:09:28.600 --> 0:09:33.720 made a second push this past I think December, and 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:35.960 ran them out of the country and actually took over. 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:39.520 And you could trace that ultimately back to that drought 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:47.040 that was created largely by climate change. And that's that's nuts. 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:48.760 Like if you think about it, if that drought had 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.200 never happened, there wouldn't have been a Syrian civil war. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:57.440 And that's probably the most extreme version example of climate 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:02.080 a climate crisis leading to violence, armed conflict. But it's 0:10:02.120 --> 0:10:04.400 not like it doesn't exist, it's not like it doesn't 0:10:04.400 --> 0:10:05.960 happen like that happened. 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.520 Yeah, I mean, over an eight year period from two 0:10:08.559 --> 0:10:12.560 thousand and two to twenty ten, the urban population in 0:10:12.600 --> 0:10:15.280 Syria went from just under nine million people to almost 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:19.040 fourteen millions. That is a lot of people to add. 0:10:19.520 --> 0:10:22.640 But and this isn't like in full agreement, so this 0:10:22.679 --> 0:10:26.400 is at a counterpoint. But Syria mishandled that. And there 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:29.040 are other countries in the region that suffered through the 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:34.080 same drought, specifically Jordan and Lebanon, that had a government 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:37.960 that was more proactive and responsive, and they had policies 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.240 that were put in place that they didn't have the 0:10:40.280 --> 0:10:43.120 same kind of you know, destructive outcomes that Syria had. 0:10:43.160 --> 0:10:46.080 So it's you know, it all depends on how you're 0:10:46.280 --> 0:10:50.360 handling this situation. We're going to talk a lot about countries, 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.640 you know, people leaving countries, and then especially the receiving countries, 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:55.960 because that's really where the rubber meets the road. 0:10:57.080 --> 0:11:02.160 For sure. If the rubber hasn't melted by then that's right. 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.360 And if the road is still intact and not cracked 0:11:05.360 --> 0:11:07.160 to pieces, it hasn't buckled. 0:11:07.320 --> 0:11:11.800 Yeah, there are actually some estimates all over the place 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:15.920 about how many climate migrants they're going to be, And 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:18.520 there was something called the ground Swell Report that the 0:11:18.520 --> 0:11:21.760 World Bank put out in twenty twenty one, and they 0:11:22.440 --> 0:11:26.760 are saying by twenty fifty, two hundred and sixteen million 0:11:27.040 --> 0:11:31.640 people will have moved either to another country or within 0:11:31.679 --> 0:11:35.800 their own country because climate conditions have made where they 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:39.880 used to live untenable. So we're talking twenty five years, 0:11:39.920 --> 0:11:43.000 not even thirty years anymore, Chuck, We're in twenty twenty five. 0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.760 If my math holds up, that's just twenty five years 0:11:46.800 --> 0:11:50.880 from now. That is a tremendous amount of migration. Some 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.000 people say, no, that's probably going to be more like 0:11:53.080 --> 0:11:56.360 fifty million. But it seems like that World Bank analysis 0:11:56.480 --> 0:11:59.959 is the most commonly cited, although you could also suggest 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:02.000 it's the most commonly sighted because it's such an eye 0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:02.920 popping number. 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.960 Yeah. True, Well, this is probably a good place since 0:12:06.000 --> 0:12:09.120 I promised to talk about something stat related. One of 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:11.200 the reasons it's hard or one of the reasons you 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.280 get something like anywhere from fifty to two hundred and 0:12:13.320 --> 0:12:16.120 fifty million people this pretty big swing is because we 0:12:16.160 --> 0:12:18.640 don't know how effective our efforts are going to be 0:12:18.760 --> 0:12:21.960 to curb emissions and to get things, you know, sort 0:12:21.960 --> 0:12:26.440 of on the right track again, how successful we're going 0:12:26.520 --> 0:12:29.440 to be at you know, some wealthier countries doing things 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:33.520 like sea walls and redistributing water resources and things like that, 0:12:33.600 --> 0:12:35.960 because as you'll see a lot of and we've talked 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.600 about before that you know, the most precious resource in 0:12:38.640 --> 0:12:44.840 the future is love. Is it is love? Oh man, 0:12:44.960 --> 0:12:49.200 I needed that water unfortunately, so you know, there have 0:12:49.280 --> 0:12:50.959 been people that talk about, you know, the wars of 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.040 the future will be fought over water. And as we'll 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:56.360 see a lot of climate migration happens either because of 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:58.440 a lack of water or a lack of water that's 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:02.600 you know, useful for humans, or to too much water, 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:04.840 and other parts like rising sea waters and such. 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:09.800 Yeah, for sure. So the World Bank broke it down 0:13:09.840 --> 0:13:11.959 that Sub Saharan Africa is going to see by far 0:13:12.080 --> 0:13:15.800 the most eighty six million, followed by East Asia the 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.920 Pacific at forty nine million, South South Asia forty million, 0:13:20.000 --> 0:13:24.120 North Africa nineteen million, although some people are like, it's 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:26.560 going to be even more than that for North America 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.040 and parts of the Middle East because it's going to 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:33.400 get so hot that it will be uninhabitable by humans. 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:35.440 Yeah, I think you you met in North Africa, not 0:13:35.520 --> 0:13:37.000 North America. 0:13:37.040 --> 0:13:39.640 That's right, Yes, North Africa in the Middle East, not 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:41.040 North America in the Middle East. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:42.880 I think people who listen to the show know us 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:46.480 enough now to where we're like old pals and they're like, oh, Josh, Chuck, 0:13:46.520 --> 0:13:47.679 you don't even need to point that out, we know 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:48.200 what he meant. 0:13:48.679 --> 0:13:51.040 You know what, though, I think I think we should 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:53.800 introduce a new device up here in the year seventeen. 0:13:54.040 --> 0:13:57.880 Uh huh, whenever I misspeak, just cut me off in 0:13:57.920 --> 0:14:04.000 the middle by doing your egg COLORSPT. Can we try that? 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.880 You ready. Yeah, so it's going to get so hot 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:11.120 in the Middle East and North America that what did 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:12.200 I say wrong, Chuck? 0:14:13.120 --> 0:14:14.160 Nothing, I just like doing that. 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:17.280 So I think we've come up with something new that 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:18.280 we really need to do. 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:21.400 All right, Well, how about this, Why don't we take 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.000 a break. You said Latin America was seventeen. 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:26.560 Million, right, No, I never got there. 0:14:26.920 --> 0:14:28.880 Latin America seventeen million. 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.480 Don't forget Eastern Europe and Central Asia. 0:14:31.360 --> 0:14:34.840 Five million, so you know, not nearly as many as 0:14:34.880 --> 0:14:39.120 the others. But there are again water scarcity, yeah, in 0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:43.760 places like Mongolian Kazakhstan. So now can we take a break. 0:14:44.000 --> 0:14:45.920 Yeah, we can take a break. I think you should 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:47.600 take us out on your eggs plait sound again? 0:14:47.640 --> 0:15:16.440 All right, we'll be right back sat All right. 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:21.000 So I kind of teased out the importance of or 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:24.840 I'm sorry, importanse I often tease here in the South everybody, 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.240 if you haven't noticed by now and you're seventeen, receiving 0:15:28.280 --> 0:15:32.920 communities are very important. How safe these people are going 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:36.200 to be when they move to this place? Is there? 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.640 And again, A they're still going to be vulnerable to 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:42.280 the impacts of climate where they go most likely or 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.520 are almost you know, with one hundred percent certainty, but 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:48.360 just how safe they're going to be period, because we 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.320 talked about sometimes when they set up on the outskirts 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:54.480 of towns and there's violence, and they're more susceptible by 0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:57.240 being in a shanty or a tent or something to 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:00.520 just even a hard rain. So it's almost like this, 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:03.720 it's a vicious cycle that's happening where people are being 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:07.440 displaced to places that also aren't safe. 0:16:07.600 --> 0:16:10.080 Yeah, and we should say that most of this migration, 0:16:10.240 --> 0:16:12.960 and most of the migrants are going to be coming 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:16.640 from or going moving within what's called the global South. 0:16:17.160 --> 0:16:19.640 And you don't use the equator as the dividing line 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:22.720 for the global South. For example, Australia and New Zealand 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:26.600 squarely in the southern hemisphere, but they're not considered global South. 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.280 It's a distinction between the developed and the developing world. 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:36.000 So you have Latin America, Africa, India's usually included, China 0:16:36.080 --> 0:16:45.160 is included, and Southeast Asia and these countries ironically are 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:49.560 if you accept China and India, most of these countries 0:16:49.920 --> 0:16:53.320 have put out the least amount of emissions that triggered 0:16:53.360 --> 0:16:57.360 climate change, and yet they're the most vulnerable to climate 0:16:57.440 --> 0:17:00.800 change in large part because they're develop And if you're 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.879 a developing country, you're probably still really reliant on agriculture. 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:08.639 You're reliant on things like timber and other natural resources, 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.439 and those are the things that are getting impacted first 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.040 right off the bat. And so if your economy is 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:17.679 based on agriculture and there's a drought that covers your 0:17:17.840 --> 0:17:21.480 entire nation, your economy's in big trouble and your people 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:22.960 are probably going to have to move. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.320 Yeah. Here's the thing though, and this isn't like a 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.159 bright side sort of thing. It puts a strain on 0:17:30.200 --> 0:17:32.560 resources when a lot of new people come to a place, 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.000 but they can also be an asset because most of 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.200 those migrants are going to end up performing a lot 0:17:38.200 --> 0:17:41.240 of very important jobs in that area. A lot of 0:17:41.240 --> 0:17:45.200 them work in agriculture, some work in construction, some work 0:17:45.200 --> 0:17:49.560 in childcare. But those same people are also not necessarily 0:17:49.640 --> 0:17:53.080 It depends on the receiving community, even down to that 0:17:53.119 --> 0:17:55.040 community level, and how they're going to take care of 0:17:55.080 --> 0:17:57.639 those people. And what I mean by take care in 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:00.560 this case is just see that they get a fair 0:18:00.600 --> 0:18:03.240 shot at like earning a wage by performing a job. 0:18:04.160 --> 0:18:07.880 If you face up a lot of potential workplace abuse 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:11.680 if you're one of those migrants. In the United Arab Emirates, 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.680 as a striking example, eighty eight percent of the population 0:18:14.800 --> 0:18:20.240 there is made up of migrants, mainly from Pakistan, Nepal, Bangladesh, 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.720 and it's very hot there as well, and so they're 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:27.240 not taking care of their migrant population of workers, and 0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:30.119 they can just sometimes some companies might be like, you 0:18:30.119 --> 0:18:31.199 know what, we're not going to pay you for that. 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:32.200 What are you going to do about it? 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:36.720 Yeah, there's a lot of examples of modern slavery force 0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.920 the labor in the UAE and other countries, very wealthy 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:45.520 Gulf states, and that is a good example of climate migrants, 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:49.040 but really any kind of migrant being taken advantage of, 0:18:49.040 --> 0:18:51.800 and it's something that definitely has to be paid attention to. 0:18:52.560 --> 0:18:55.359 On the other hand, there are studies that say, okay, 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.040 this actually might be good, like, yes, we need to 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.119 make sure that the receiving countries are not exploiting the 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:06.480 climate migrants or any migrants, but the pressure that could 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:09.639 be relieved from their home country if they're moving to 0:19:09.800 --> 0:19:13.119 more developed or wealthier countries that are more set up 0:19:13.119 --> 0:19:19.080 with infrastructure and social structure to absorb them. That actually 0:19:19.080 --> 0:19:21.199 could be a plus, because all of a sudden, the 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:25.080 population is not swollen in an urban center where it's 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:28.040 really hot, and you're around people from an ethnic group 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:31.679 that your ethnic group has hated for a thousand years. 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.120 Like moving some of these people out to other countries 0:19:34.160 --> 0:19:37.520 could actually be a relief valve that could keep social 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:38.800 upheaval from happening. 0:19:39.119 --> 0:19:44.359 Yeah, potentially so. Under the United Nations, they have a 0:19:44.400 --> 0:19:49.480 Refugee Convention from nineteen fifty one that specifically defines the 0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:52.919 good thing it does. It defines that refugees are entitled 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:58.360 to legal rights, entitled to travel, some kinds of support, housing, 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.879 that kind of thing. But the I guess kind of 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:04.719 the downside of what it did is it very narrowly 0:20:04.800 --> 0:20:06.960 defined what a refugee was in the wake of World 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:10.120 War Two, which was you have to be fleeing persecution 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:13.720 on the basis of race, religion, nationality, political opinion, or 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.800 group membership, and only if you're fleeing from one border 0:20:18.800 --> 0:20:21.040 to the next. We already mentioned that a lot of 0:20:21.080 --> 0:20:24.200 this is happening within their home country, so they don't 0:20:24.200 --> 0:20:27.560 have any of those un guaranteed rights, but a lot 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:29.679 of people legal scholars are saying, hey, we need to 0:20:29.760 --> 0:20:36.160 expand that definition to include maybe not necessarily only cross 0:20:36.200 --> 0:20:38.720 border and people who were climate refugees. 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:41.840 Yeah, like, why not add the sun. You can be 0:20:41.880 --> 0:20:45.160 fleeing the sun and we'll consider you a refugee from 0:20:45.160 --> 0:20:45.560 now on. 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:48.080 That's me every summer in Atlanta. 0:20:48.200 --> 0:20:50.760 Right, you just go down in your basement right in 0:20:50.800 --> 0:20:55.159 turns tasty. Yeah, so yes, there there are like I 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:59.760 guess there's structure. There's like global structure that can be 0:20:59.760 --> 0:21:03.920 aplied to climate migrants and climate refugees. It's just that's 0:21:03.960 --> 0:21:06.920 not necessarily happening right now. But it wouldn't take much, 0:21:06.960 --> 0:21:08.960 I think, is what we're saying, right to just kind 0:21:09.000 --> 0:21:11.560 of expand the existing definitions. 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:14.760 Well, yeah, and that's just you know, that's the UN definition. 0:21:14.840 --> 0:21:17.119 There are other places in the world. The Organization of 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:21.879 African Unity Convention in the Latin America, Cartagena. Is that Cartagena? 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.000 Yeah, I know that from Romancing the Stone. 0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:28.640 We just watched that with Ruby last weekend. 0:21:29.000 --> 0:21:30.240 It's such a good movie. 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:33.359 It holds up and it is if you have a 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:35.439 kid that's around that age that's into sort of like 0:21:35.920 --> 0:21:38.639 action adventure kind of movies which she is. It's a 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:40.240 it's a great one. Man. She had a really good 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:44.480 time and it's not like super inappropriate for an eighties movie. 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:47.840 That's really surprising. Did you follow up with Jewel of 0:21:47.880 --> 0:21:48.280 the Nile? 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:54.320 Not yet, but yeah, that'll be coming. It's just Danny DeVito. Man, 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:56.480 what a national treasure that guy is. 0:21:56.680 --> 0:21:57.960 Yeah, he really is a jewel. 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:01.920 So great, ira Ah, I forgot how much I love 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.960