WEBVTT - The Secrets We Keep w/ Michael Slepian 0:00:00.440 --> 0:00:03.560 Welcome to Go, Ask Alli, a production of Shonda Land 0:00:03.600 --> 0:00:07.080 Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. I think like 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:09.280 eriginas have a lot to say. I think we should 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.120 let them speak out of it and they'll just talk. Yes, 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:15.080 one of the hardest things to absorb for those who 0:00:15.080 --> 0:00:17.840 are new to these kinds of fights. Again, if we 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.439 want all of them, we wouldn't be here. If you 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:24.239 see a monster, don't try to run away, step right 0:00:24.320 --> 0:00:25.959 up to it and say, what do you have to 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:28.200 teach me? Why are you? In my mind, I want 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:30.480 to be the person who has cancer and doesn't run 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.040 a marathon, Like, do I have to work that hard? No, 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:41.200 it's the best excuse not to run a marathon. Welcome 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:44.479 to go, Ask Allie. I'm Alli Wentworth and I have 0:00:44.560 --> 0:00:49.040 a secret. Did I get your attention? That's right, because 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:53.320 secrets are enticing. But the question is are they good 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.560 for us? Are they bad for us? We all keep secrets, 0:00:56.600 --> 0:00:59.920 We've all told secrets. Do you feel bad about a secret? 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.039 Are there any secrets you take to your grave? There's 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:09.040 just so many secrets, So what is the science behind secrets? Well, 0:01:09.240 --> 0:01:13.000 my guest can tell us all these things and probably 0:01:13.040 --> 0:01:16.880 divulge a few secrets of his own. Michael Slappian is 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.480 an Associate professor of Leadership and Ethics at Columbia University. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.039 As a leading expert on the psychology of secrets, he 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.840 is a recipient of the Rising Star Award from the 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:31.800 Association for Psychological Science. Slappian has authored more than fifty 0:01:31.920 --> 0:01:35.479 articles on secrecy, truth and deception. His research has been 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.360 covered by The New York Times, The Atlantic, The New Yorker, 0:01:38.440 --> 0:01:46.040 The Economist, The Wall Street Journal, the BBC, NPR, and more. Hi, Hey, 0:01:46.120 --> 0:01:51.320 Michael Slappian, how are you the secret? Life of Secrets? So? 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:54.279 First of all, it's the most compelling title in the world, 0:01:54.440 --> 0:02:01.880 because you know, secrets are enticing, terrifying, being somewhat delicious, 0:02:01.960 --> 0:02:05.360 depending on what it is. Tell me, what is so 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:09.600 compelling to you about secrets? Why write a book about them? 0:02:09.760 --> 0:02:13.760 We all keep secrets, and for most of those secrets, 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.960 we really don't talk about them, and so we really 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:19.960 don't have a good understanding of our own secrets. We 0:02:20.000 --> 0:02:23.120 certainly don't have a good understanding of how secrets affect us. 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:27.760 There's also a lot of misconceptions, including in the academic 0:02:27.800 --> 0:02:30.760 set of things, about what secrecy even is, and so 0:02:30.840 --> 0:02:33.600 it doesn't have to be shrouded in mystery. We can 0:02:33.720 --> 0:02:36.560 learn about how our secrets affect us because it will 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:38.640 help us better cope with them and help us better 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.760 decide what to do with these secrets. So I think 0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:45.000 we should just jump in with the basics, which we 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:48.400 kind of need for context. What is a secret? I 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:53.600 define secrecy as an intention to withhold information from one 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:57.360 or more people, and the information is the secret. And 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.280 so there's plenty of things that about you that other 0:02:59.280 --> 0:03:02.040 people don't know that or not secret. What makes one 0:03:02.080 --> 0:03:04.960 of those things a secret is you intend to withhold 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.800 that information from at least one person. So tell me 0:03:08.800 --> 0:03:11.680 a little bit about the difference besides the obvious, between 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:15.120 a big secret and a small secret. Yeah, So I 0:03:15.120 --> 0:03:18.880 think when a secret seems small, it feels like the 0:03:18.960 --> 0:03:22.040 detail is not very significant. Whether that's not significant to 0:03:22.120 --> 0:03:24.800 us or not significant to the other person. Um that 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.800 there's no huge problem with keeping that kind of thing 0:03:27.840 --> 0:03:31.200 a secret when we start thinking about big secrets, if 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:34.600 it feels big to you, then to me it indicates 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:37.840 perhaps is something you need help with or something that 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:40.560 you're not sure about, or it seems like a major 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:44.840 event and it's creating some kind of problem for you 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.000 that you're trying to work through. Um. For a secret 0:03:48.040 --> 0:03:51.240 to be big, it has to feel like there's something 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.160 to do or there's something to figure out, you know. 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:57.360 I think to me, indicates there's there's some work to do, 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.760 whereas a small secret, you know, I don't really need 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:01.920 help with it. But this is just this little thing 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.600 I keep to myself. And nothing is harder than living 0:04:05.640 --> 0:04:08.400 with the secret that can't be spoken. UM. And I 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:10.880 love how you talk about Tony Soprano in the book, 0:04:11.000 --> 0:04:15.480 because I mean, he's such an iconic figure and you 0:04:15.520 --> 0:04:20.359 know the idea of him having so many secrets that 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:25.240 caused him anxiety and depression, which leads him to therapy, 0:04:25.279 --> 0:04:28.719 which is also a secret. And I'm I'm sort of 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:33.960 always fascinated by trauma and anxiety and depression, and I 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:38.120 think that secrets have many, many roots to all three 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:41.279 of those. And I you know, so many novels and 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:45.640 films have been written and made about the person that 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:48.280 find finds out they're not who they thought they were. 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:53.279 And that is a secret that when it's revealed, have 0:04:54.000 --> 0:05:00.280 huge consequences. The kind of secrets that completely implode your life. 0:05:00.000 --> 0:05:04.520 I'll draw on my personal experience here. Um. I and 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:08.840 I started the book Revealing this secret as well. UM 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:12.680 almost ten years ago. Now, I was just starting at 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:15.920 my secrecy research and I was actually on the job 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.160 interview this day and I was presenting this new research 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:22.200 on secrecy. And as the day was winding down, I 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:24.720 got a call from my dad which I didn't pick up. 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:26.279 And then I got another call from my dad and 0:05:26.320 --> 0:05:30.200 I said, oh, no, something bad has happened. And he 0:05:30.279 --> 0:05:32.240 then goes on to tell me when I eventually got 0:05:32.279 --> 0:05:34.200 him on the phone later that night, where it's like 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.919 after midnight at this point, he says, Michael, I have 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.000 something to tell you. I'm not biologically able to have children. 0:05:42.200 --> 0:05:44.239 I am not your biological father, is what he was saying. 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:48.360 And for me, of course, I mean for anyone, that's 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:50.719 going to be shocking to learn just you know, you 0:05:50.800 --> 0:05:53.200 have these assumptions and to have them up ended can 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:57.680 be a lot. But I think for me in particular, 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.840 what was really shocking about that wasn't the new information. 0:06:00.839 --> 0:06:03.159 As shocking as that was, I kind of readily accepted that. 0:06:03.200 --> 0:06:05.960 I thought, well, you know, the relationships that matter most 0:06:05.960 --> 0:06:07.800 to me, a lot of them are not based in genetics, 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:10.520 and so what does that matter whether I share jeans 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:12.560 with a parent or not. But it was the secret 0:06:12.600 --> 0:06:16.400 keeping that really shook me, or that really shifted the 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:19.120 ground under my feet, because you know, this is a 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:21.640 secret my parents have been keeping for me my whole life. 0:06:21.640 --> 0:06:23.400 I was in my twenties at that point, for for 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.080 more than two decades, and you know they planned on 0:06:27.160 --> 0:06:31.119 never telling me about and our entire family knew except 0:06:31.160 --> 0:06:34.200 for me and my younger brother. And so I think 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:37.320 when you get that, when you learn that kind of thing, 0:06:37.480 --> 0:06:40.520 I could totally shake up everything my my younger brother was. 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:42.560 You know, it made it less shut about a lot 0:06:42.560 --> 0:06:45.560 of things, whereas for me, it kind of made me 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.080 more sure about certain things. And so I think those 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.960 kinds of big secrets certainly cause you pause and start 0:06:52.080 --> 0:06:56.000 asking questions that you might not have asked before. But 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:59.800 it's interesting that you say it wasn't so much the 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:05.040 concrete fact, but the secrecy of it. And I'm from 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:09.200 a family of a lot of secrets, and I when 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.559 I read your book, I really paused because I thought, 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:17.120 I think that's absolutely true. It's what is so painful 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.000 is not the fact, and Look, we can put it 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:23.400 into infidelity, because there was a lot of infidelity in 0:07:23.440 --> 0:07:27.160 my upbringing. And it wasn't so much the fact that 0:07:27.520 --> 0:07:30.600 you know, you did leave mom for this woman, but 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:33.320 the fact that you were with this woman for two 0:07:33.400 --> 0:07:36.640 years and you know it was a secret, and it 0:07:36.760 --> 0:07:40.400 was it was something you were withholding from your children. 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.520 And so to me, it's the repercussions of the secret. 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:47.560 So you know, and I think you say in your 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:51.160 book that one can be weighted down by secrets, then 0:07:51.200 --> 0:07:55.120 I think that there are families that are so steeped 0:07:55.120 --> 0:07:59.720 in secrets that everybody is weighted down, which brings me 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:02.960 back to it leads to anxiety and depression and alcoholism 0:08:02.960 --> 0:08:09.040 and addiction. Um. Talk about the three dimensions of secrets. 0:08:09.080 --> 0:08:12.280 So in in my research, one of the very first 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:15.280 things to do was to figure out what are the 0:08:15.320 --> 0:08:18.880 secrets people commonly keep? How many secrets do people commonly keep? 0:08:19.120 --> 0:08:21.600 When I started this research, you know, about ten years ago. Now, 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:24.800 that was a question no person had ever asked before, 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:28.320 which is crazy, um. And the reason why psychologists had 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:33.040 yet to ask that question was simply because when psychologists 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.920 before me studied secrecy, they have a very specific situation 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:41.920 in mind, one person interacting with another person and that 0:08:41.960 --> 0:08:45.000 person asking you questions related to your secret, and that's 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:49.000 what they saw secrecy as. And the reason why that's 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:53.480 problematic is that that's just one moment of a secret, 0:08:53.559 --> 0:08:55.880 and in fact, we don't often have to hide our secrets, 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.080 and our secrets exist before those moments, and they exist 0:08:58.160 --> 0:09:03.439 afterwards too. And so because prior researchers were creating these 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.680 secrecy situations in the lab, they weren't looking at people's 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.840 real secrets. And so the first question was, now, if 0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:12.240 we're gonna look at people's real secrets, which is what 0:09:12.240 --> 0:09:15.160 we're trying to understand, what what are the secrets people keep? 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.960 And from asking a couple thousand people, we arrived at 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.040 these thirty eight common categories of secrets and includes all 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:23.480 the things you think would be on that list, issues 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:31.480 around sex, drugs, relationships, ambitions, and fidelity involving school work, abortion, 0:09:32.080 --> 0:09:36.600 um self harm, harming another person, telling a lie, violating 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.200 another's trust, and so all use that in my research 0:09:40.280 --> 0:09:42.880 to essentially look at a person's whole set of secrets, 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:44.959 because when you look at only one secret at a time, 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.040 you can ask, is this secret bad? Or good for you. 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.560 But you can't get at the question of which of 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:53.200 your secrets hurt you and why until you start looking 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:56.640 at a person's whole set of secrets. And so that's 0:09:56.640 --> 0:09:58.520 what I do in my research. Now, if you were 0:09:58.520 --> 0:10:01.880 wanted to ask me of these thirty eight categories, which 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:06.840 secrets are more harmful than others, these dimensions come into play, 0:10:06.960 --> 0:10:09.600 and what we can see is that people naturally think 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:13.880 about their secrets as varying along three dimensions. The first 0:10:13.880 --> 0:10:16.640 dimension is how immoral the secret is, and so the 0:10:16.720 --> 0:10:20.880 more immoral you think your secret is the behavior in question, 0:10:21.600 --> 0:10:25.000 the more you feel ashamed of that secret. Um. Infidelity, 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:27.160 of course, is for an example of the secret people 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:30.280 see us immoral um. The next dimension is how much 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:33.200 does the secret involved with other people? Some secrets very 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:36.400 much involved other people, any secret about romance or sex, 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.240 for example, very highly relational. Some secrets involved no other 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.920 people and just involve yourself only. And so a secret 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.600 that seems only where related to yourself feels very individual, 0:10:46.600 --> 0:10:49.720 feels very personal um and also as secrets that we 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:52.960 find most isolating. And then the third dimension is how 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:56.920 much the secret involves your goals? Right, you know your aspirations, 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:00.440 and so that often involves, for example, the workplace, career 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:03.040 goals and so on. So secrets about work, secrets about 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.440 money are really high on this dimension, where secrets really 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:09.520 low on this dimension aren't oriented towards specific goals at all, 0:11:09.559 --> 0:11:12.760 but are more sort of based in feeling. Um, what's 0:11:12.840 --> 0:11:16.000 useful about knowing that these are three dimensions that people 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:19.960 primarily experience their secrets by is it means there's three 0:11:19.960 --> 0:11:23.199 ways in which a secret can hurt you. And what's 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:25.640 so useful about knowing that If there's three ways in 0:11:25.640 --> 0:11:28.120 which a secret can hurt you, there's also three ways 0:11:28.160 --> 0:11:31.400 in which a secret doesn't have to hurt you. And 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.080 the good news is that in all situations, and what 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:36.960 we see in the research is that there is one 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:40.200 of the dimensions of those three you say is not 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.839 hurting you. And what I do is help people figure 0:11:43.840 --> 0:11:46.480 out what dimension that is because it points you to 0:11:47.320 --> 0:11:51.000 your path forward to better coping knowing how your secret 0:11:51.120 --> 0:11:54.880 isn't hurting you, right, And I believe you in your 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:57.440 book you said that being weighted down by secrets. You 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.400 use the example of Pablo ascar Bar hiding all his 0:12:01.480 --> 0:12:04.960 money in all the cracks and the walls, which I 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:07.440 sort of love that as a visual because when you 0:12:07.480 --> 0:12:09.959 are bogged down by a lot of secrets, you are 0:12:10.080 --> 0:12:15.679 tucking them into your consciousness everywhere. There's a lot more 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:28.280 to come after the short break and we're back. So 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:31.360 let me ask you this. When somebody says to you, Hey, Michael, 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:34.440 can you keep a secret? How do you answer that? Yeah? 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:37.080 I mean, if someone is saying that to me, it 0:12:37.120 --> 0:12:40.040 indicates that they have something really interesting that they want 0:12:40.080 --> 0:12:42.439 to talk about. That's one reason for gossip, if we 0:12:42.520 --> 0:12:45.280 want to call it that. But also they might be 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.960 asking for help. And so if someone ever says that 0:12:48.000 --> 0:12:50.920 to me, and I'm like, well, yes I can, um, 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:53.520 I can help if that's what you want. And I 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:55.640 can listen to hear what you have to say if 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.560 that's that's all you want too. So is it curious 0:12:58.600 --> 0:13:01.679 that when people say, hey, Ali, can you keep a secret? 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:07.559 I always answer it depends because I have found and 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.120 you you talk about this in your book that sometimes 0:13:11.200 --> 0:13:15.600 I have been blessed or cursed with someone else's secret 0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:19.560 and I don't want that secret. I don't want to 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:21.880 hold it, I don't want to think about it. I 0:13:22.120 --> 0:13:25.800 don't even want to know it, and my mother used 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.640 to always say to me, if you don't want anybody 0:13:28.640 --> 0:13:32.559 to know your secrets, don't tell anybody. You've heard all 0:13:32.600 --> 0:13:36.200 the children's lyrics about secret secrets are no fun unless 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:39.679 you share them with everyone. But there is an impulse 0:13:40.160 --> 0:13:44.120 in human beings to tell secrets. Why do you think 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:49.600 that is? What is the psychology of needing to tell somebody? Yeah? So, 0:13:49.600 --> 0:13:52.679 so there's a class of situations where it's like you 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:56.560 need help, and it's really hard to work on something 0:13:56.679 --> 0:13:59.600 that you're struggling with if you're entirely alone with that thing. 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.000 And I one reason why people want to reveal their 0:14:02.040 --> 0:14:05.720 secrets as they want to hear how people respond to them, 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:08.559 whether it's validating your experience or giving you advice on 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:12.920 what to do differently. But on an even more fundamental level, 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.120 I think the reason we so often want to talk 0:14:15.160 --> 0:14:17.520 about our secrets with others, reveal our secrets to others, 0:14:18.200 --> 0:14:21.320 is we just don't want to be alone with them. 0:14:21.360 --> 0:14:24.040 You know, it's hard to have something in your head 0:14:24.600 --> 0:14:27.320 and to not talk about it with any people. That 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:30.160 feels lonely or it feels isolating, and we don't want 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:32.840 to be alone with our thoughts. I think that's what, 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.880 at the end of the day, makes partly why secrecy 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:40.160 is are difficult. So why would people, for example, uh, 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:43.640 tell secrets about infidelity? That's one of the ones on 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.280 your list. Yeah, I've never been unfaithful to my husband, 0:14:46.600 --> 0:14:50.520 but if I was, there is no way I would 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.000 tell anybody for risk of it coming out or him 0:14:54.040 --> 0:14:57.960 finding out. But I have found that people seem to 0:14:58.880 --> 0:15:02.720 tell their infidel all these two friends a lot. And 0:15:02.800 --> 0:15:05.160 I don't know if it's what you just said before 0:15:05.280 --> 0:15:09.080 that they need validation of it. But you know, I 0:15:09.160 --> 0:15:11.480 can't help. But sometimes think do they want to be caught? 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:15.440 I mean, why are you telling me this secret? And 0:15:15.520 --> 0:15:18.160 how do I now sit across from your spouse at 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:21.120 a dinner party? But but my first thing is why 0:15:21.160 --> 0:15:24.440 are you telling me this? I really think it's even 0:15:24.440 --> 0:15:27.240 in that example, is this this thing that did happen? 0:15:27.360 --> 0:15:30.040 It did happen. You do have to find a way forward, 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:32.920 even if just by yourself, if if the decision is 0:15:32.960 --> 0:15:36.360 to never reveal this to your partner, Um, it feels 0:15:36.360 --> 0:15:39.600 good to just admit to someone that had happened. I 0:15:39.640 --> 0:15:43.680 think again, it's just it's hard to be entirely alone 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:49.440 with something. You talk about confessing and confiding, and you know, 0:15:49.520 --> 0:15:54.120 there's a whole structure built around, particularly the Catholic Church, 0:15:54.200 --> 0:15:58.840 which is all about confessing and confiding and the idea 0:15:59.080 --> 0:16:02.840 of relief seeing a secret that way in a safe place, 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:07.600 which I would also say therapy can be too. Um. 0:16:07.760 --> 0:16:11.920 Is there a psychological release when you're able to confide, 0:16:12.760 --> 0:16:17.520 when you're able to confess. Yeah. So the way I 0:16:17.600 --> 0:16:20.760 distinguished confession and confiding is, Um, if you reveal a 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:22.800 secret to the person you're keeping it from, I call 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.960 that confession. If you reveal a secret to someone else, 0:16:26.040 --> 0:16:30.320 I call that confiding. And so in terms of confessing, 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.960 sometimes that can be very complicated whether that's the right decision, 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:35.920 and fidelity is are you know we've already been talking 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:38.720 about is a great example, Um, confessing this to this 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:42.800 destroy your relationship. And so especially if you're trying to 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.600 decide whether it confess something, I think a good strategy 0:16:45.680 --> 0:16:47.960 is often to talk to someone else about it to 0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.880 be sure that you've made the right decision here. And 0:16:52.600 --> 0:16:55.080 that's what I call confiding, talking to someone that you're 0:16:55.120 --> 0:16:59.040 not specifically intending to hold that information from. And the 0:16:59.120 --> 0:17:03.520 average experience people have with confiding is very helpful one. UM. 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:05.320 People feel like they get a lot out of those 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:08.760 conversations that it's And so what's helpful about confiding is 0:17:08.760 --> 0:17:11.399 not just saying it out loud. UM, is not just 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:14.040 releasing your secret out into the world. It's that the 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.280 person responds and their research shows our research shows that 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:20.280 people respond in helpful ways. Maybe they give you advice, 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:22.919 maybe they give you emotional support, and maybe it's just 0:17:23.000 --> 0:17:25.840 sympathy and they're like, that sucks, I'm so sorry that 0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:30.240 you're dealing with that. Even that is really helpful to 0:17:30.400 --> 0:17:33.119 just make you feel that you're not aline with this, 0:17:33.240 --> 0:17:36.080 that you that that this is a tough situation, and 0:17:36.080 --> 0:17:40.720 and that there is paths forward. UM. Maybe one reason 0:17:40.720 --> 0:17:42.840 why people get so much out of confiding as they 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:45.800 choose the right people to confide in. UM. But even 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:50.680 a lukewarm response people find helpful. Only very negative responses 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:54.560 lead people to feel like confiding backfires and they're really rare. Again, 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:58.920 maybe because people choose the right people. UM. The other day, 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.680 a friend of mine said to do you think that 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:06.080 you will die holding onto any secrets? And I said, 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.400 I think there's probably two secrets I will die with 0:18:10.320 --> 0:18:14.240 And I was thinking about afterwards, why why, And I 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:18.119 think that they're they're just embarrassing or shameful, like there's 0:18:18.200 --> 0:18:21.240 no good or bad that would come out of telling them. 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:25.119 And I think that's got to be the sort of 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:28.320 bottom line of most of those secrets. You know that 0:18:28.560 --> 0:18:33.440 it's shame on some level. Yeah, when it's something that 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.240 you feel ashamed with, if it's something that makes you 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:40.840 feel bad about yourself, it's very natural to imagine that 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:44.840 if you don't reveal it to people, that's better because 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.680 once people learn these things, then they're permanently out there 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:49.600 and you don't have control over them, and people might 0:18:49.640 --> 0:18:53.199 draw the wrong conclusions. But I think talking about it 0:18:53.240 --> 0:18:56.280 with some person, any person could be a therapist, could 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:58.400 be a bartender it you know, it could be like 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:01.879 a taxi driver ry right. Um, When we choose to 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.160 be entirely alone with something, we often don't develop healthy 0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:08.959 ways of thinking about that thing. It's actually all too 0:19:09.040 --> 0:19:11.840 easy to find unhealthy ways of thinking about that thing, 0:19:12.640 --> 0:19:15.920 and that's hard to temper. That's hard to mitigate those 0:19:15.960 --> 0:19:19.320 harms on your own because you're really locked into your 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:22.560 own perspective. It's really hard to find a way out 0:19:22.560 --> 0:19:26.200 of that alone. You can try you can try journaling, 0:19:26.200 --> 0:19:28.040 and that can help if you do it in a 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:32.080 way that challenges counterproductive ways of thinking. But that's really 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:37.360 easy to achieve in a conversation with anyone, um, someone 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.359 who you think could just be a sounding board or 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:43.760 someone who actually might respond with helpful advice, and you know, 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.000 maybe they have to be far removed from everything. That's 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:50.200 what it takes. I know, with like anxiety, holding in 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:55.200 anxiety can can cause all kinds of physical problems. Has 0:19:55.200 --> 0:19:59.240 there been any studies about you know, holding secrets causing 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.399 cancer or any kind of internal damage because it's the 0:20:03.440 --> 0:20:08.440 act of suppression or secrecy, yes, um, but it's often 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:12.040 not because of the suppression. UM. There's a famous study 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:15.480 that was conducted in the nineties on HIV positive men 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:19.719 who concealed their sexual orientation, and essentially, the more they 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:24.399 concealed their sexual orientation, the more rapid progression of disease, UM, 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:29.399 the more health problems than they even hide sooner. But 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:32.639 more recent research suggests that what's so harmful about that 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:37.240 situation is not feeling supportive enough to be yourself to 0:20:37.359 --> 0:20:40.240 reveal yourself in the first place. It's not the hiding, 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:44.479 it's it's not feeling able to reveal. It is the problem. 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:49.240 And so having a secret is not harmful in itself, 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:53.000 but having a habit of secret keeping is because the 0:20:53.040 --> 0:20:55.399 person who habitually keeps secrets as a way to deal 0:20:55.440 --> 0:20:59.480 with problems is the person who's not working on those problems. 0:21:01.040 --> 0:21:05.000 So let me ask you about responsibility of being the 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:11.520 recipient of confiding or confessing um because in therapy there's 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:17.960 doctor confidentiality. But if we were friends, even if we weren't, 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:19.600 even if I just sat next to you on a 0:21:19.640 --> 0:21:24.360 train and I said, you know, I once killed a man. 0:21:25.320 --> 0:21:29.360 When somebody reveals one of your quote unquote big secrets, 0:21:29.760 --> 0:21:34.560 what is your responsibility of the recipient. If the secret 0:21:35.320 --> 0:21:38.960 is about somebody who's being harmed, or if the secret 0:21:39.800 --> 0:21:43.560 is hiding some kind of harm that's ongoing, that's a 0:21:43.600 --> 0:21:48.159 problematic situation, especially if you think about like children or teenagers. 0:21:48.200 --> 0:21:51.520 If someone asks you to keep a secret on their behalf, 0:21:51.560 --> 0:21:55.160 if it's about something harmful, that's going to be a problem. 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:57.600 And so I think those are the kind of secrets 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.439 that you do have some kind of response ability to 0:22:01.600 --> 0:22:04.520 address in some manner, Whether or not that's telling someone 0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:07.760 else about it or talking with the person who revealed 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.840 this to you. If it's about somebody who's being harmed 0:22:10.880 --> 0:22:15.320 by this information being contained, you should do something about him. Um, 0:22:15.400 --> 0:22:19.960 you're right that people can feel burdened by others confessions 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:22.359 or being confided and can be a source of burden 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:24.440 if now you have to carry the secret on their behalf, 0:22:24.520 --> 0:22:26.160 or now you have to think about this thing over 0:22:26.200 --> 0:22:30.240 and over and so especially when you're unloading something heavy 0:22:30.240 --> 0:22:33.639 on another person, They're going to help you, but recognize 0:22:33.920 --> 0:22:36.440 your you might be placing a burden on them too. 0:22:37.200 --> 0:22:41.800 And then there are the secrets that you've told somebody 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:47.679 that are revealed. There's a tremendous fear of telling somebody 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.240 a secret and having it exposed, which is why I 0:22:51.280 --> 0:22:55.040 think so many people are tormented and keep so much 0:22:55.040 --> 0:22:58.960 inside because the risk is too high and in most cases, 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:11.560 and it's time for a short break, welcome back to 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:16.680 go ask Alli. I have kids, right, and I think 0:23:16.760 --> 0:23:20.840 secrets are probably the hardest thing for them because every 0:23:20.840 --> 0:23:23.880 time I've said to either of my daughters, okay, promised 0:23:23.920 --> 0:23:26.800 to keep a secret, I know that they're either going 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:28.840 to tell each other or tell my husband. So I 0:23:28.880 --> 0:23:33.240 actually set them up to divulge information because I know 0:23:33.280 --> 0:23:35.480 if they can't do it. So when you think about 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:40.320 the brain itself and cognitive thought and in the maturation 0:23:40.359 --> 0:23:44.520 of the brain, can children keep secrets? Yeah, they can, 0:23:45.080 --> 0:23:47.720