WEBVTT - Graham Nash, Part 2 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:21.476 Pushkin. I want to let you know that Rick has 0:00:21.476 --> 0:00:25.516 a new podcast called Tetragrammaton. After about four to five 0:00:25.596 --> 0:00:28.516 years of recording Broken Record, Rick decided he wanted to 0:00:28.516 --> 0:00:31.636 talk to more than just musicians, So on his new podcast, 0:00:31.756 --> 0:00:37.556 he'll be talking to actors, directors, wrestlers, business people, anyone 0:00:37.716 --> 0:00:40.796 that Rick finds interesting. So make sure to subscribe to 0:00:40.836 --> 0:00:45.556 Tetragrammaton wherever you listen to podcasts. Today we have the 0:00:45.676 --> 0:00:49.716 second part of Rick Rubin's conversation with legendary singer songwriter 0:00:49.996 --> 0:00:53.036 Graham Nash. We drop part one a couple of weeks ago, 0:00:53.316 --> 0:00:56.036 so definitely go check that out if you haven't already. 0:00:56.836 --> 0:00:59.276 On today's episode, Graham tells Rick about the time The 0:00:59.316 --> 0:01:02.796 Grateful Dead we're recording next to Csen and how Jerry 0:01:02.796 --> 0:01:07.876 Garcia improvised a near perfect pedal steel solo on Teacher Children. 0:01:08.516 --> 0:01:11.476 Graham also describes a bizarre encounter with the judge who 0:01:11.596 --> 0:01:15.236 sentenced his father to prison, and shares the inspiration behind 0:01:15.276 --> 0:01:22.356 his upcoming solo album. Now this is Broken Record Line 0:01:22.396 --> 0:01:25.996 of notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Michman. Here's 0:01:26.036 --> 0:01:29.116 part two of Rick Rubin's conversation with Graham Nash. They 0:01:29.116 --> 0:01:31.956 start off with Graham talking about how the Classics CSN 0:01:32.076 --> 0:01:36.076 song Our House came to be. Can we talk about 0:01:36.156 --> 0:01:37.996 some of the other songs that you've written, just to 0:01:38.396 --> 0:01:41.596 talk about how they how they came to pass Our House. 0:01:42.836 --> 0:01:47.796 I'd taken Joani to breakfast Arts Delhi Unventura Boulevard in 0:01:47.876 --> 0:01:51.796 Los Angeles. It's a famous deli, and because the food's 0:01:51.836 --> 0:01:55.316 great and we had a nice breakfast. It was a 0:01:55.396 --> 0:01:57.996 tail end of winter. It was a shitty day. It 0:01:58.116 --> 0:02:02.196 was miserable and it was cold and just not not 0:02:02.276 --> 0:02:05.716 a nice day. So we finished breakfast and we leave 0:02:05.956 --> 0:02:09.596 Arts Deli and we're walking towards the park lot where 0:02:09.636 --> 0:02:12.476 Joan had parked her car, and we saw an antique store, 0:02:12.516 --> 0:02:15.596 and of course we're looking in the window. I like 0:02:15.756 --> 0:02:19.356 to I like to see stuff that people have made 0:02:19.676 --> 0:02:22.436 and said, you know, isn't this fantastic? And one hundred 0:02:22.476 --> 0:02:25.876 years later it's covered in dusting. Some weird store. Anyway, 0:02:26.316 --> 0:02:31.236 Jonnie saw a vase that she liked, very simple, about 0:02:31.236 --> 0:02:35.116 ten inches high, had some hand painted flowers around the 0:02:35.236 --> 0:02:37.796 top edge. It was beautiful and it was reasonably priced, 0:02:37.836 --> 0:02:40.516 so she bought it. And as I said, it was 0:02:40.556 --> 0:02:43.156 a miserable day. So we get in John's car and 0:02:43.196 --> 0:02:45.876 we drive down to the house in Laura Canyon and 0:02:46.356 --> 0:02:48.676 go through the front door, and I said, hey, John, 0:02:49.356 --> 0:02:51.636 why don't I light a fire and you put some 0:02:51.676 --> 0:02:55.156 flowers in that vase that you just bought today. I'm 0:02:55.156 --> 0:02:57.876 a musician. How can I not follow that? How can 0:02:57.916 --> 0:03:01.836 I not go away a second? That's an interesting phrase. 0:03:02.756 --> 0:03:07.396 I've finished this and it only took a maybe an 0:03:07.436 --> 0:03:12.396 hour and twenty minutes to finish. Unbelievable. Yeah, it speaks 0:03:12.436 --> 0:03:19.276 to the as an artist, you being aware at all times, 0:03:20.036 --> 0:03:26.996 looking for opportunities to turn real life into the art 0:03:27.036 --> 0:03:29.756 that you make. That's what I'm trying to do. Yeah, 0:03:29.796 --> 0:03:33.316 you didn't sit down to write a song. You said 0:03:33.356 --> 0:03:39.236 something offhanded, recognize hmm, that sounds like something right, and 0:03:39.356 --> 0:03:41.636 you followed up, which is another part of it, because 0:03:41.876 --> 0:03:45.436 both you have to have the the awareness to recognize 0:03:45.436 --> 0:03:50.196 it and then the discipline to not do what you 0:03:50.196 --> 0:03:53.276 were planning to do, but sit down and play and 0:03:53.836 --> 0:03:57.436 commit to doing this thing and don't forget. You have 0:03:57.516 --> 0:04:00.276 to add something to that. Yes, I'm living in a 0:04:00.356 --> 0:04:04.436 house with a brilliant writer, Yes, who normally is at 0:04:04.436 --> 0:04:09.156 the piano, and I always gave her the space to 0:04:09.156 --> 0:04:13.836 to write, always always encouraged to write. I would go 0:04:13.876 --> 0:04:16.596 on long walks and she'd write, you know, but this 0:04:16.716 --> 0:04:18.876 time she wasn't at the piano. She was actually in 0:04:18.876 --> 0:04:21.156 the garden looking for flowers to put in the varse. 0:04:21.236 --> 0:04:25.356 So I had an hour to write it. Amazing. Is 0:04:25.356 --> 0:04:28.276 that the only time you've been in a relationship with 0:04:28.516 --> 0:04:34.316 another writer? Not quite. I spent a couple of years 0:04:34.316 --> 0:04:37.636 with Reader Coolidge, how beautiful and reader. It was the 0:04:37.676 --> 0:04:44.596 writer and she actually wrote that strange piano change in Layla. Wow. 0:04:44.956 --> 0:04:50.556 And unfortunately her boyfriend Jim Gordon said he'd written it Wow. 0:04:50.716 --> 0:04:54.396 Can you imagine how much money that reader could have made? Yeah? 0:04:54.596 --> 0:04:57.716 From Layla. I'm just curious about this. Was there any 0:04:57.716 --> 0:05:02.396 sense of competition living with a great artist, Not at all. 0:05:03.156 --> 0:05:07.476 There was no way I recognized the genius of Johnny 0:05:07.756 --> 0:05:12.716 in those days, and I would never get in the way. Yeah, 0:05:12.756 --> 0:05:14.556 it's just a fan. You were a fan, and she 0:05:14.636 --> 0:05:16.676 hopefully she was a fan of yours. I don't know that, 0:05:16.716 --> 0:05:18.796 but she was at least a fan of yours. As 0:05:18.796 --> 0:05:21.196 a human, I don't think that we could have spent 0:05:21.476 --> 0:05:23.676 the time that we did together, and she not at 0:05:23.756 --> 0:05:30.156 least recognized that I was a decent writer, you know. Okay, 0:05:30.156 --> 0:05:34.676 how about carry Anne? Ah? Carry Anne was a Holly 0:05:34.756 --> 0:05:38.996 song that started out by Tony Hicks, I think, and 0:05:39.676 --> 0:05:41.756 it turned into a song that we had written about 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:47.796 Maryanne Faithful, and we didn't have the balls to call it, 0:05:47.836 --> 0:05:50.556 Hey mary Anne, And we were trying to come up 0:05:50.596 --> 0:05:54.196 with a girl's name that would disguise the fact that 0:05:54.276 --> 0:05:56.676 it was about Mary Unfaithful, and we came up with 0:05:56.836 --> 0:06:00.876 the with the title carry Anne. Had it been called 0:06:01.756 --> 0:06:07.156 mary Anne in that moment in time, would everyone have said, oh, 0:06:07.196 --> 0:06:10.076 that's Marion Faithful or not? Necessarily, they would have known. 0:06:10.556 --> 0:06:12.716 She was quite famous at that point because she was 0:06:12.756 --> 0:06:16.636 with Mick and Keith, you know, and had done all 0:06:17.076 --> 0:06:20.316 the being busted naked, you know, a lot all the 0:06:20.316 --> 0:06:25.596 stuff that unfortunately Marianne went in her life. But she 0:06:25.756 --> 0:06:30.196 is a brilliant writer, Marianne. She really is. Marrakesh Express. 0:06:30.756 --> 0:06:35.836 I'd taken a vacation from the Hollies in nineteen sixty six, 0:06:36.636 --> 0:06:40.596 and I'd heard stories of the American beat poets going 0:06:40.636 --> 0:06:43.396 down to this place called Marrakesh and smoking a lot 0:06:43.396 --> 0:06:46.156 of dope and writing poetry and all the stuff they 0:06:46.196 --> 0:06:50.716 got up to, and I kind of I thought it's 0:06:50.756 --> 0:06:54.076 an interesting idea. And so because I had a vacation, 0:06:54.476 --> 0:06:59.036 my wife and I at the time, flew to Casablanca 0:06:59.436 --> 0:07:03.636 and walked around Casablanca. It was a phenomenal place. And 0:07:03.676 --> 0:07:07.956 then we took a train going south to Marrakesh. I 0:07:08.116 --> 0:07:12.356 was in a first class compartment with two older American 0:07:12.436 --> 0:07:16.196 leaders who had their gray hair dyed blue, which was 0:07:16.596 --> 0:07:20.476 kind of shocking to me at that time. And I 0:07:20.996 --> 0:07:24.596 left the first class compartment and I go to the 0:07:24.596 --> 0:07:29.796 third class compartment and that's where that's where almost it 0:07:29.916 --> 0:07:32.316 was like Snoop Dog was having a party there, you know, 0:07:32.676 --> 0:07:36.116 you know, there was dogs and pigs and chickens all 0:07:36.156 --> 0:07:41.156 walking around and people pouring mint tea from like four 0:07:41.196 --> 0:07:43.316 feet in the air into the small coupe and not 0:07:43.436 --> 0:07:46.676 spilling a drawer. It was amazing. But that's where mark 0:07:46.916 --> 0:07:50.356 Express was born. And I just found my original lyrics, 0:07:50.956 --> 0:07:56.596 which which I'm happy about. Fantastic. So did it start? 0:07:56.596 --> 0:07:58.556 Do you remember if it started with lyrics first or 0:07:58.596 --> 0:08:01.916 just the title. I didn't get to the title until 0:08:01.996 --> 0:08:05.396 once again, at the end of the first chorus. My 0:08:05.556 --> 0:08:07.876 memory of it is that it all happened at the 0:08:07.916 --> 0:08:13.476 same time, me trying to translate my feelings of having 0:08:13.556 --> 0:08:16.916 just come back from the third class compartment party, and 0:08:17.116 --> 0:08:19.876 it all came out at the same time. The rhythm, 0:08:20.316 --> 0:08:23.036 the chords on the guitar, and the lyrics, it all 0:08:23.076 --> 0:08:26.236 came out at the same time. That one beautiful. It's 0:08:26.236 --> 0:08:29.276 beautiful when it happens. Yeah, amazing, Yeah, yeah, it feels 0:08:29.316 --> 0:08:31.956 it feels like magic when it happens. I thought it 0:08:31.996 --> 0:08:34.596 was pretty good, but that once again, at that time, 0:08:34.716 --> 0:08:36.596 it was one of the reasons why I felt that 0:08:36.636 --> 0:08:38.476 I had to leave the Hollies because they didn't like 0:08:38.596 --> 0:08:43.356 Marrakesh Express. Wow. Somewhere in the bowels of Emi, there's 0:08:43.436 --> 0:08:47.076 a tape of just the track of the Hollies doing 0:08:47.236 --> 0:08:51.356 Marrakesh Express, but there's no there's no train in there. 0:08:52.876 --> 0:08:57.036 I want I wanted. I wanted that kind of a 0:08:57.116 --> 0:09:01.636 rhythm train, which Stephen brilliantly did on the record when 0:09:01.636 --> 0:09:06.196 he put those uh what sound like trumpets in harmony there, 0:09:06.196 --> 0:09:10.636 you know, But that's Stephen beautiful because it was David 0:09:10.876 --> 0:09:15.076 once again saved my life in a way, because the 0:09:15.116 --> 0:09:16.996 worst thing you can do to a rider is give 0:09:17.076 --> 0:09:23.396 himself doubt when you say something that questions his veracity. 0:09:23.836 --> 0:09:26.196 That's awful to do to a rider. But it was 0:09:26.276 --> 0:09:28.796 Krasban and said, wait a second, let me tell you 0:09:28.876 --> 0:09:33.596 something that's a fine song. They're the crazy ones, and 0:09:33.756 --> 0:09:36.636 it was once again another reason why I had to 0:09:36.716 --> 0:09:42.556 leave the Hollies. Wow on a carousel On a carousel 0:09:43.156 --> 0:09:46.196 is one of those songs that is completely made up 0:09:46.756 --> 0:09:50.436 and completely made up from something that we had experienced 0:09:51.116 --> 0:09:55.596 when we were children, on actual riding on a carousel, 0:09:56.076 --> 0:09:58.716 and how all the horses are trying to catch up 0:09:58.716 --> 0:10:01.236 with each other, but they're stationary, of course because they're 0:10:01.236 --> 0:10:05.636 locked into the carousel. But it was basically a song 0:10:05.916 --> 0:10:12.036 totally made up from nothing. It's a beauty and teacher children. Well, 0:10:13.036 --> 0:10:16.676 i'd started teaching children in my last days in England. 0:10:17.556 --> 0:10:21.556 Basically when I came to America. One of the things 0:10:21.596 --> 0:10:24.676 that I was able to do, because I was earning 0:10:25.156 --> 0:10:27.436 a great deal of money at that point, was to 0:10:27.436 --> 0:10:31.996 collect photography. And I had I think about one hundred 0:10:32.036 --> 0:10:35.156 and fifty of the images to a show in Santa 0:10:35.196 --> 0:10:41.196 Clara in California. And I've never told any gallery owner 0:10:41.356 --> 0:10:44.676 how to hang my stuff. I'm very interested in how 0:10:44.756 --> 0:10:47.516 they would hang it, because when you have a picture 0:10:47.516 --> 0:10:50.116 on a wall, it affects the way you see the 0:10:50.156 --> 0:10:52.956 next picture on the wall. And one of the images 0:10:52.956 --> 0:10:57.836 that I bought by Arnold Newman was a portrait of Krupp, 0:10:58.716 --> 0:11:01.876 who was a family member of the Krupp family that 0:11:02.116 --> 0:11:06.396 manufactured all the armaments for both World Wars in Germany. 0:11:08.276 --> 0:11:11.516 And I realized that if we didn't teach our children 0:11:11.556 --> 0:11:14.396 a better way of dealing with each other, that humanity 0:11:14.436 --> 0:11:18.196 itself was in deep trouble. And that's when I got 0:11:18.196 --> 0:11:21.556 to finish teach your children. The recording of it was 0:11:21.596 --> 0:11:24.556 pretty simple. It was me and Stephen on acoustic guitars 0:11:24.596 --> 0:11:27.476 and Dallas Taylor, our drummer, on tambourine, and we have 0:11:27.596 --> 0:11:31.556 made the track and we realized that it needed a solo, 0:11:32.036 --> 0:11:35.636 and Steven said, you know, forgive me, but I'm kind 0:11:35.636 --> 0:11:38.076 of tired of doing solos. I've done. I've done a 0:11:38.076 --> 0:11:41.196 lot of solos, you know, is there any other thing 0:11:41.276 --> 0:11:44.676 that we can figure out? And Crosby said, hey, wait 0:11:44.716 --> 0:11:48.356 a second. Jerry Garcia has been learning pedal steel for 0:11:48.396 --> 0:11:52.356 the last three months. Maybe Jerry can put pedal steel 0:11:52.396 --> 0:11:55.796 on it. So we made a demo, a rough mix 0:11:55.836 --> 0:11:58.636 of the track. I told David to go over to Jerry, 0:11:58.676 --> 0:12:00.916 who was in the next studio with the Dead in 0:12:00.996 --> 0:12:04.516 Wally Hiders in San Francisco, and see if Jerry likes 0:12:04.516 --> 0:12:07.396 the song, and if he likes the song, does he 0:12:07.516 --> 0:12:10.236 want to put the pedal steel. He loved the song. 0:12:10.436 --> 0:12:12.876 He came in, he brought his pedal steel in the studio. 0:12:13.716 --> 0:12:20.036 I played it. He played the first take. I said, fantastic, unbelievable, 0:12:20.116 --> 0:12:23.756 that's exactly what this song needed. And Jerry said, and 0:12:23.836 --> 0:12:25.716 you know, I made a couple of mistakes. Do you 0:12:25.756 --> 0:12:28.676 mind if I do a second track? And I said, absolutely, 0:12:28.676 --> 0:12:30.796 you can do a second track, but I gotta tell 0:12:30.836 --> 0:12:33.876 you I'm not going to use it. What you just 0:12:33.956 --> 0:12:38.396 did when you were learning the song was so perfect. 0:12:38.756 --> 0:12:41.756 We did take the two notes that were out slightly 0:12:42.156 --> 0:12:45.516 wrong out of his second track, but I used that 0:12:45.556 --> 0:12:48.996 first track because it was beautiful, and I think it 0:12:48.316 --> 0:12:52.276 was a great deal of the reason why it became 0:12:52.356 --> 0:12:55.876 such a big hit. Two things interesting about that story. 0:12:55.956 --> 0:12:59.596 The first one is a photograph, so another form of 0:12:59.676 --> 0:13:04.076 art that you're interested in inspires the lyric. Yes, and 0:13:04.116 --> 0:13:09.316 then the happenstance of Jerry Garcia happened to be in 0:13:09.356 --> 0:13:12.436 the next studio, happened to be learning this new instrument, 0:13:12.556 --> 0:13:15.836 David happened to know that. It's like, there's so much 0:13:16.876 --> 0:13:20.556 that just and you say that might that's part of 0:13:20.556 --> 0:13:23.516 why the song is the song. Yeah, it's an amazing 0:13:24.196 --> 0:13:28.156 confluence of events, so many of which that are out 0:13:28.196 --> 0:13:32.956 of our control when we're making something great that it's 0:13:32.996 --> 0:13:35.836 a marvel and to witness it happen again and again, 0:13:35.956 --> 0:13:37.716 because we've got to see this over the course of 0:13:37.716 --> 0:13:42.156 our lives, over and over again. It's a true mystical 0:13:42.436 --> 0:13:47.436 experience when you see these elements come together in a 0:13:47.516 --> 0:13:53.636 way that it seems almost random, but through the recognition 0:13:53.676 --> 0:13:57.156 of oh maybe maybe if this with that right, maybe 0:13:57.156 --> 0:14:01.636 that'll work. It's amazing. Yeah, amazing, because you know, we 0:14:01.676 --> 0:14:06.196 wouldn't finding our way through music, but always keeping in 0:14:06.276 --> 0:14:10.796 mind what is right for the track. And Jerry's solo 0:14:10.876 --> 0:14:13.236 at the beginning and the solo in the middle, of course, 0:14:13.876 --> 0:14:16.836 was just perfect for the track, and he'd done it 0:14:16.876 --> 0:14:21.196 in one take and amazing. I love one takes. I'm 0:14:21.676 --> 0:14:25.516 I'm with Neil on that thing. I love when you've 0:14:25.516 --> 0:14:28.196 done a song in the studio you know, twenty times 0:14:28.796 --> 0:14:31.636 it loses something, you know, and I've been lucky enough 0:14:31.676 --> 0:14:38.596 to recognize when it's right, agree under and to argue 0:14:38.636 --> 0:14:41.916 the opposite point. Beatles did a lot of takes, and 0:14:41.956 --> 0:14:46.876 I really like those records. Yes, yes, that's true. So yeah, 0:14:46.916 --> 0:14:50.116 but you know there's probably Beatles songs that were done 0:14:50.116 --> 0:14:53.916 in one take too. Oh, absolutely absolutely. But I think 0:14:53.916 --> 0:14:55.476 if we listened to him, we wouldn't say the one 0:14:55.516 --> 0:14:58.116 take songs are necessarily better than the ones that know 0:14:58.436 --> 0:15:01.596 more effort. It's like whatever is right for like you're 0:15:02.516 --> 0:15:05.436 taking care of each song in the way that's best 0:15:05.476 --> 0:15:08.236 for that song, whatever that is. If it's one take, great, 0:15:08.796 --> 0:15:11.996 and if it's trying it many times until you find 0:15:12.036 --> 0:15:14.396 the way, it's like, we don't know, we can't know, no, 0:15:14.796 --> 0:15:17.716 but we know when it's right, absolutely, and that's the 0:15:17.796 --> 0:15:21.236 best and it's the best feeling because until it's right, 0:15:21.676 --> 0:15:24.396 I always have the feeling we don't have a we 0:15:24.436 --> 0:15:28.436 don't have a way to make it right until you 0:15:28.516 --> 0:15:31.996 do it, until we happen to recognize that it's already right. Yes, 0:15:32.796 --> 0:15:34.916 you can't do it in advance, that's right, and it 0:15:34.956 --> 0:15:37.676 takes courage to do that, you know, it takes courage 0:15:37.716 --> 0:15:40.716 to tell Jerry Garcia, you know, you know, sure you 0:15:40.716 --> 0:15:43.356 can do a second track, but I'm never gonna Okay, 0:15:43.996 --> 0:15:47.996 they had the song that had very CSN like harmony 0:15:48.076 --> 0:15:51.396 Uncle John's band. Was the fact that you guys were 0:15:51.436 --> 0:15:54.276 recording next to them, that have any impact on that 0:15:54.316 --> 0:15:57.916 song coming into existence, do you know? Undoubtedly they would 0:15:57.996 --> 0:16:00.756 come into the studio and watch what we did and 0:16:00.796 --> 0:16:03.436 how we did it. Yeah, and then they started to 0:16:03.436 --> 0:16:07.276 do that because they like harmonies too, you know. Yeah, 0:16:07.316 --> 0:16:10.196 but it's such a specific thing what Crusby, Stills and 0:16:10.276 --> 0:16:14.436 Nash does, and that's one of the few songs, a 0:16:14.636 --> 0:16:19.556 NANCSN song that has the makings of a CSN like 0:16:20.196 --> 0:16:23.476 blend right. They started to do what we did, which 0:16:23.636 --> 0:16:26.756 was we'd put up an eighty seven and we'd open 0:16:26.796 --> 0:16:28.636 it up all the way around and we'd just stand 0:16:28.716 --> 0:16:32.116 the three of us and I would stand further away 0:16:32.116 --> 0:16:35.596 from the microphone than David did, because I have this 0:16:35.716 --> 0:16:38.756 voice that cuts through everything. It's just the way my 0:16:38.916 --> 0:16:42.996 voice is. And when they saw that that we were 0:16:43.036 --> 0:16:47.356 position in ourselves around an open microphone, they took that 0:16:47.436 --> 0:16:50.596 and did that and that's how they started to record 0:16:50.756 --> 0:16:53.676 because normally they would put Jerry would put his part on, 0:16:53.716 --> 0:16:56.676 and then Phil would put his part on, and then twhoever. 0:16:56.876 --> 0:16:59.956 You know, right, in general, is there a difference between 0:17:00.996 --> 0:17:06.636 singing together versus stacking tracks? Absolutely? That example, absolutely, Tell 0:17:06.636 --> 0:17:09.236 me about it. Tell me about what happens different What 0:17:09.276 --> 0:17:13.116 happens differently is vibration when the three of us are 0:17:13.156 --> 0:17:17.196 singing around a microphone, knowing which distance each one of 0:17:17.316 --> 0:17:21.636 us needs to be to get the blend correct. It 0:17:21.676 --> 0:17:25.236 takes work to do that, but we managed to do 0:17:25.276 --> 0:17:30.196 that totally naturally, because there is a difference between when 0:17:30.236 --> 0:17:32.796 you put on a melody and then you double that, 0:17:32.876 --> 0:17:34.636 and you put on a harmony and then you do that. 0:17:34.716 --> 0:17:40.836 But with individual takes, there isn't the DNA blend of 0:17:41.036 --> 0:17:45.316 three voices hitting the air at the same time. It's 0:17:45.356 --> 0:17:50.676 a different sound if it's only one voice after another voice. 0:17:51.276 --> 0:17:54.116 It's fascinating because so few artists do it that way 0:17:54.116 --> 0:17:57.156 as well, so few we could do it though. Yeah, 0:17:57.316 --> 0:17:59.916 do you remember did you all wear headphones when you 0:17:59.916 --> 0:18:02.876 were doing it or were you singing with your no headphones? 0:18:02.916 --> 0:18:05.596 Do you remember? Yeah? I do remember. We always use 0:18:05.836 --> 0:18:09.356 headphones with just one with one right, so that we 0:18:09.396 --> 0:18:12.396 had the other ear free to be able to listen 0:18:12.436 --> 0:18:15.316 to what the other guys were doing. We wouldn't put 0:18:15.356 --> 0:18:18.636 both headphones on. We would only put one side on. 0:18:19.436 --> 0:18:23.436 Understood for the blend part of it of knowing where 0:18:23.476 --> 0:18:26.036 you were standing. That was more based on what you 0:18:26.036 --> 0:18:28.716 were hearing in the phone, I imagine, because you couldn't 0:18:28.836 --> 0:18:33.636 tell how it was affecting the mic just looking at it, right, 0:18:33.836 --> 0:18:38.756 But then the other ear was for the true mingling 0:18:38.916 --> 0:18:42.916 of the frequencies. Yes, exactly in real life, exactly right. 0:18:42.956 --> 0:18:46.076 Because it is different. It's hard to explain how when 0:18:46.116 --> 0:18:49.556 you put on headphones it's just different. Yes, it is. 0:18:50.276 --> 0:18:52.396 Then you have to deal with it. But we knew, 0:18:52.476 --> 0:18:55.756 we knew how to do our voices. Like I said, 0:18:55.796 --> 0:18:59.156 that sound csn hand vocally. It was done in forty 0:18:59.196 --> 0:19:04.116 five seconds. It was not saying it just bloody happened, 0:19:04.316 --> 0:19:08.396 and it happened so beautifully that I then made I 0:19:08.476 --> 0:19:11.036 have to go to England and undo my life. I 0:19:11.076 --> 0:19:15.076 want to follow this sound. This sound is amazing. I mean, yes, 0:19:15.236 --> 0:19:17.956 anyone can sing the same notes that we can. You 0:19:17.996 --> 0:19:21.516 can't sound like us. Yeah, we'll be back after a 0:19:21.556 --> 0:19:28.516 quick break with more from Rick Rubin and Graham Nash. 0:19:28.676 --> 0:19:33.356 We're back with Rick Rubin's conversation with Graham Nash. Coming 0:19:33.396 --> 0:19:37.156 from England, did you have any sense of feeling like 0:19:37.196 --> 0:19:41.756 an outsider when you came absolutely different than the other people. Yeah, 0:19:41.756 --> 0:19:44.556 but I was an outsider that I had a history 0:19:44.756 --> 0:19:47.956 of knowing how to make hit records because I'd been 0:19:47.956 --> 0:19:50.316 in the Hollies for seven years and like I said, 0:19:50.356 --> 0:19:52.836 we had fifteen or so top ten records. So I 0:19:54.636 --> 0:19:58.636 wasn't outsider, but I came with a certain weight. Yes, 0:19:58.916 --> 0:20:04.676 And you came post British invasion, where basically all of 0:20:04.716 --> 0:20:07.596 the music being made in California at that time, in 0:20:07.636 --> 0:20:10.516 what's one form or another, seemed to be influenced by 0:20:10.596 --> 0:20:13.556 what was going on in England. Yeah. We were amazed 0:20:13.556 --> 0:20:16.116 in England that we would take American songs and sing 0:20:16.116 --> 0:20:19.276 them with a kind of a British accent and sell 0:20:19.356 --> 0:20:22.436 them back to the Americans. That was weird to us, 0:20:23.116 --> 0:20:26.716 but it's what we did, you know, Because you'd have 0:20:26.796 --> 0:20:28.836 somebody that was in the Merchant Navy. You'd have a 0:20:29.396 --> 0:20:31.956 brother or a cousin or somebody, and they would go 0:20:31.996 --> 0:20:35.436 to America and they were musicians, so they would bring 0:20:35.436 --> 0:20:39.716 records back. So we were hearing all the Miracles and 0:20:40.476 --> 0:20:45.596 Barrett Strong and all these really strange rhythm and blues 0:20:45.636 --> 0:20:51.276 things that hadn't hit the charts in England. And yeah, 0:20:51.316 --> 0:20:54.876 the British Invasion. What a strange theme that was. Yeah, 0:20:54.876 --> 0:20:57.396 we're making all this American music and singing it with 0:20:57.396 --> 0:21:00.316 a British accent and selling it right back to the Americans. 0:21:00.396 --> 0:21:04.636 This is amazing. Yeah, I think there's something about I 0:21:04.956 --> 0:21:07.316 think it's more than just singing it with a British accent. 0:21:07.436 --> 0:21:15.836 I think the romantic view from a distance allows a 0:21:15.996 --> 0:21:19.596 different interpretation, not even just in the accents, but even 0:21:19.636 --> 0:21:23.076 in the way the music's approached. It's like, we can 0:21:23.196 --> 0:21:27.876 use the example of led Zeppelin and the American blues 0:21:27.916 --> 0:21:34.996 that it's based on. No American blues man would take 0:21:35.036 --> 0:21:39.996 it to such bombastic. It would be unseemly to do 0:21:40.036 --> 0:21:44.716 what led Zeppelin did from the blues master perspective. Yet 0:21:45.636 --> 0:21:49.156 they were taking this fantasy from a distance in the 0:21:49.196 --> 0:21:52.756 same way that Sergio Leone made the Spaghetti Westerns that 0:21:52.796 --> 0:21:56.356 were different than the Western Westerns. It's like seeing it 0:21:56.396 --> 0:21:59.356 from a distance can give you a romantic vision of 0:21:59.396 --> 0:22:04.396 it that's bigger than the reality of the situation. Yeah, 0:22:04.596 --> 0:22:07.396 it feels like the Hollies had that. It's like, yes, 0:22:07.476 --> 0:22:10.676 there was the influence of the American music, but it 0:22:10.716 --> 0:22:14.036 didn't sound like the American music because you guys were 0:22:14.076 --> 0:22:17.596 different and your life experience was different, right, And we'd 0:22:17.596 --> 0:22:21.516 all we'd all learned, you know, from skiffle. You know, 0:22:21.596 --> 0:22:25.676 we'd all learned from from early folk music. And we 0:22:25.756 --> 0:22:28.676 started out in dance halls, and we wanted to make 0:22:28.756 --> 0:22:31.796 music that people could dance too, and we wanted to 0:22:31.796 --> 0:22:34.676 make them think too, and why not do both things 0:22:34.716 --> 0:22:38.036 at the same time. But yeah, the Hollies did have 0:22:38.116 --> 0:22:41.716 a certain sound that was different than American bands, that's 0:22:41.716 --> 0:22:44.236 for sure. And let's talk about skiffle a little bit, 0:22:44.236 --> 0:22:47.196 because that was not something that happened in the United States, no, 0:22:47.596 --> 0:22:50.716 or at least it didn't happen as being called skiffle. 0:22:51.356 --> 0:22:55.636 Tell me about skiffle. There was an Irish folk singer 0:22:55.876 --> 0:22:59.196 called Lonnie Donegan, and he went to America and he 0:23:00.596 --> 0:23:04.996 witnessed Lad Belly and he witnessed all these blues people 0:23:05.196 --> 0:23:09.476 and how simple it was. Big Bill runs just on 0:23:09.556 --> 0:23:14.076 acoustic guitar, and he brought that music back with him 0:23:14.436 --> 0:23:20.116 from America. So now you have to think of Okay, 0:23:20.236 --> 0:23:22.636 in the late fifties, it was only ten years since 0:23:22.676 --> 0:23:26.716 World War two happened, and there was nothing that fifteen 0:23:26.796 --> 0:23:30.876 and sixteen year old kids could do, particularly where I lived, 0:23:31.196 --> 0:23:34.196 there was nothing to do. Really. You had a ball 0:23:34.276 --> 0:23:36.596 you could kick around or play cricket with, you know, 0:23:36.996 --> 0:23:39.836 but there was no There was no music because we 0:23:39.876 --> 0:23:43.676 couldn't afford it. And then skiffle came along, where if 0:23:43.716 --> 0:23:46.956 you had a cheap acoustic guitar and you created a 0:23:47.036 --> 0:23:50.716 bass from a t chest box with a pole and 0:23:50.796 --> 0:23:55.476 a string that you could play the bass, and for 0:23:55.556 --> 0:23:58.556 the drums you would put thimbles on your right hand 0:23:58.596 --> 0:24:02.196 if you right handed, and we had a washboard, which 0:24:02.236 --> 0:24:05.356 is an instrument that your grandmother used to wash clothes 0:24:05.396 --> 0:24:10.516 with and go stop, and so it was simple, it 0:24:10.596 --> 0:24:13.436 was cheap. We could afford to do that, and we 0:24:13.676 --> 0:24:16.716 all of a sudden we had something to do and 0:24:16.756 --> 0:24:21.996 we followed it directly. We loved skiffle and it started 0:24:22.036 --> 0:24:27.196 the background of our musical journey. And Lonnie Dogan is 0:24:27.356 --> 0:24:30.996 very famous in England. I mean, ask anybody, they all 0:24:31.036 --> 0:24:34.196 know who Lonnie Donigan was because he was very important 0:24:34.196 --> 0:24:37.756 in the creation of music in England. I guess the 0:24:37.836 --> 0:24:42.076 closest approximation we had in the United States would have 0:24:42.076 --> 0:24:45.316 been jug band music, which wasn't particularly popular. It was 0:24:45.356 --> 0:24:50.476 more of an a tiny regional fringe movement. Yes, so 0:24:50.796 --> 0:24:54.036 Lonnie Donigan must have seen that. I had no idea 0:24:54.116 --> 0:24:56.316 that the roots of skiffle were rooted in American music. 0:24:56.356 --> 0:24:58.676 I never would have guessed that. They never would have 0:24:58.676 --> 0:25:01.876 guessed that directly. Fascinating. Yeah, I have one more song 0:25:01.956 --> 0:25:03.516 to ask about, so I'll ask about it before I 0:25:03.556 --> 0:25:06.956 go on. Okay, the next song to ask about is 0:25:07.036 --> 0:25:10.316 just a Song before I Go, which was the biggest 0:25:10.396 --> 0:25:13.476 hit of the band. Yeah. If I knew it was 0:25:13.516 --> 0:25:15.116 going to be such a big hit, i'd written a 0:25:15.116 --> 0:25:21.076 better song. Just A song started very simply. It was 0:25:21.156 --> 0:25:24.516 me on piano. I've been to England to visit my 0:25:24.556 --> 0:25:27.756 mother who wasn't feeling too well and she was in hospital. 0:25:28.276 --> 0:25:31.076