Speaker 1: Pushkin. I want to let you know that Rick has
Speaker 1: a new podcast called Tetragrammaton. After about four to five
Speaker 1: years of recording Broken Record, Rick decided he wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to more than just musicians, So on his new podcast,
Speaker 1: he'll be talking to actors, directors, wrestlers, business people, anyone
Speaker 1: that Rick finds interesting. So make sure to subscribe to
Speaker 1: Tetragrammaton wherever you listen to podcasts. Today we have the
Speaker 1: second part of Rick Rubin's conversation with legendary singer songwriter
Speaker 1: Graham Nash. We drop part one a couple of weeks ago,
Speaker 1: so definitely go check that out if you haven't already.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, Graham tells Rick about the time The
Speaker 1: Grateful Dead we're recording next to Csen and how Jerry
Speaker 1: Garcia improvised a near perfect pedal steel solo on Teacher Children.
Speaker 1: Graham also describes a bizarre encounter with the judge who
Speaker 1: sentenced his father to prison, and shares the inspiration behind
Speaker 1: his upcoming solo album. Now this is Broken Record Line
Speaker 1: of notes for the Digital Age. I'm justin Michman. Here's
Speaker 1: part two of Rick Rubin's conversation with Graham Nash. They
Speaker 1: start off with Graham talking about how the Classics CSN
Speaker 1: song Our House came to be. Can we talk about
Speaker 1: some of the other songs that you've written, just to
Speaker 1: talk about how they how they came to pass Our House.
Speaker 1: I'd taken Joani to breakfast Arts Delhi Unventura Boulevard in
Speaker 1: Los Angeles. It's a famous deli, and because the food's
Speaker 1: great and we had a nice breakfast. It was a
Speaker 1: tail end of winter. It was a shitty day. It
Speaker 1: was miserable and it was cold and just not not
Speaker 1: a nice day. So we finished breakfast and we leave
Speaker 1: Arts Deli and we're walking towards the park lot where
Speaker 1: Joan had parked her car, and we saw an antique store,
Speaker 1: and of course we're looking in the window. I like
Speaker 1: to I like to see stuff that people have made
Speaker 1: and said, you know, isn't this fantastic? And one hundred
Speaker 1: years later it's covered in dusting. Some weird store. Anyway,
Speaker 1: Jonnie saw a vase that she liked, very simple, about
Speaker 1: ten inches high, had some hand painted flowers around the
Speaker 1: top edge. It was beautiful and it was reasonably priced,
Speaker 1: so she bought it. And as I said, it was
Speaker 1: a miserable day. So we get in John's car and
Speaker 1: we drive down to the house in Laura Canyon and
Speaker 1: go through the front door, and I said, hey, John,
Speaker 1: why don't I light a fire and you put some
Speaker 1: flowers in that vase that you just bought today. I'm
Speaker 1: a musician. How can I not follow that? How can
Speaker 1: I not go away a second? That's an interesting phrase.
Speaker 1: I've finished this and it only took a maybe an
Speaker 1: hour and twenty minutes to finish. Unbelievable. Yeah, it speaks
Speaker 1: to the as an artist, you being aware at all times,
Speaker 1: looking for opportunities to turn real life into the art
Speaker 1: that you make. That's what I'm trying to do. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you didn't sit down to write a song. You said
Speaker 1: something offhanded, recognize hmm, that sounds like something right, and
Speaker 1: you followed up, which is another part of it, because
Speaker 1: both you have to have the the awareness to recognize
Speaker 1: it and then the discipline to not do what you
Speaker 1: were planning to do, but sit down and play and
Speaker 1: commit to doing this thing and don't forget. You have
Speaker 1: to add something to that. Yes, I'm living in a
Speaker 1: house with a brilliant writer, Yes, who normally is at
Speaker 1: the piano, and I always gave her the space to
Speaker 1: to write, always always encouraged to write. I would go
Speaker 1: on long walks and she'd write, you know, but this
Speaker 1: time she wasn't at the piano. She was actually in
Speaker 1: the garden looking for flowers to put in the varse.
Speaker 1: So I had an hour to write it. Amazing. Is
Speaker 1: that the only time you've been in a relationship with
Speaker 1: another writer? Not quite. I spent a couple of years
Speaker 1: with Reader Coolidge, how beautiful and reader. It was the
Speaker 1: writer and she actually wrote that strange piano change in Layla. Wow.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately her boyfriend Jim Gordon said he'd written it Wow.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine how much money that reader could have made? Yeah?
Speaker 1: From Layla. I'm just curious about this. Was there any
Speaker 1: sense of competition living with a great artist, Not at all.
Speaker 1: There was no way I recognized the genius of Johnny
Speaker 1: in those days, and I would never get in the way. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just a fan. You were a fan, and she
Speaker 1: hopefully she was a fan of yours. I don't know that,
Speaker 1: but she was at least a fan of yours. As
Speaker 1: a human, I don't think that we could have spent
Speaker 1: the time that we did together, and she not at
Speaker 1: least recognized that I was a decent writer, you know. Okay,
Speaker 1: how about carry Anne? Ah? Carry Anne was a Holly
Speaker 1: song that started out by Tony Hicks, I think, and
Speaker 1: it turned into a song that we had written about
Speaker 1: Maryanne Faithful, and we didn't have the balls to call it,
Speaker 1: Hey mary Anne, And we were trying to come up
Speaker 1: with a girl's name that would disguise the fact that
Speaker 1: it was about Mary Unfaithful, and we came up with
Speaker 1: the with the title carry Anne. Had it been called
Speaker 1: mary Anne in that moment in time, would everyone have said, oh,
Speaker 1: that's Marion Faithful or not? Necessarily, they would have known.
Speaker 1: She was quite famous at that point because she was
Speaker 1: with Mick and Keith, you know, and had done all
Speaker 1: the being busted naked, you know, a lot all the
Speaker 1: stuff that unfortunately Marianne went in her life. But she
Speaker 1: is a brilliant writer, Marianne. She really is. Marrakesh Express.
Speaker 1: I'd taken a vacation from the Hollies in nineteen sixty six,
Speaker 1: and I'd heard stories of the American beat poets going
Speaker 1: down to this place called Marrakesh and smoking a lot
Speaker 1: of dope and writing poetry and all the stuff they
Speaker 1: got up to, and I kind of I thought it's
Speaker 1: an interesting idea. And so because I had a vacation,
Speaker 1: my wife and I at the time, flew to Casablanca
Speaker 1: and walked around Casablanca. It was a phenomenal place. And
Speaker 1: then we took a train going south to Marrakesh. I
Speaker 1: was in a first class compartment with two older American
Speaker 1: leaders who had their gray hair dyed blue, which was
Speaker 1: kind of shocking to me at that time. And I
Speaker 1: left the first class compartment and I go to the
Speaker 1: third class compartment and that's where that's where almost it
Speaker 1: was like Snoop Dog was having a party there, you know,
Speaker 1: you know, there was dogs and pigs and chickens all
Speaker 1: walking around and people pouring mint tea from like four
Speaker 1: feet in the air into the small coupe and not
Speaker 1: spilling a drawer. It was amazing. But that's where mark
Speaker 1: Express was born. And I just found my original lyrics,
Speaker 1: which which I'm happy about. Fantastic. So did it start?
Speaker 1: Do you remember if it started with lyrics first or
Speaker 1: just the title. I didn't get to the title until
Speaker 1: once again, at the end of the first chorus. My
Speaker 1: memory of it is that it all happened at the
Speaker 1: same time, me trying to translate my feelings of having
Speaker 1: just come back from the third class compartment party, and
Speaker 1: it all came out at the same time. The rhythm,
Speaker 1: the chords on the guitar, and the lyrics, it all
Speaker 1: came out at the same time. That one beautiful. It's
Speaker 1: beautiful when it happens. Yeah, amazing, Yeah, yeah, it feels
Speaker 1: it feels like magic when it happens. I thought it
Speaker 1: was pretty good, but that once again, at that time,
Speaker 1: it was one of the reasons why I felt that
Speaker 1: I had to leave the Hollies because they didn't like
Speaker 1: Marrakesh Express. Wow. Somewhere in the bowels of Emi, there's
Speaker 1: a tape of just the track of the Hollies doing
Speaker 1: Marrakesh Express, but there's no there's no train in there.
Speaker 1: I want I wanted. I wanted that kind of a
Speaker 1: rhythm train, which Stephen brilliantly did on the record when
Speaker 1: he put those uh what sound like trumpets in harmony there,
Speaker 1: you know, But that's Stephen beautiful because it was David
Speaker 1: once again saved my life in a way, because the
Speaker 1: worst thing you can do to a rider is give
Speaker 1: himself doubt when you say something that questions his veracity.
Speaker 1: That's awful to do to a rider. But it was
Speaker 1: Krasban and said, wait a second, let me tell you
Speaker 1: something that's a fine song. They're the crazy ones, and
Speaker 1: it was once again another reason why I had to
Speaker 1: leave the Hollies. Wow on a carousel On a carousel
Speaker 1: is one of those songs that is completely made up
Speaker 1: and completely made up from something that we had experienced
Speaker 1: when we were children, on actual riding on a carousel,
Speaker 1: and how all the horses are trying to catch up
Speaker 1: with each other, but they're stationary, of course because they're
Speaker 1: locked into the carousel. But it was basically a song
Speaker 1: totally made up from nothing. It's a beauty and teacher children. Well,
Speaker 1: i'd started teaching children in my last days in England.
Speaker 1: Basically when I came to America. One of the things
Speaker 1: that I was able to do, because I was earning
Speaker 1: a great deal of money at that point, was to
Speaker 1: collect photography. And I had I think about one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty of the images to a show in Santa
Speaker 1: Clara in California. And I've never told any gallery owner
Speaker 1: how to hang my stuff. I'm very interested in how
Speaker 1: they would hang it, because when you have a picture
Speaker 1: on a wall, it affects the way you see the
Speaker 1: next picture on the wall. And one of the images
Speaker 1: that I bought by Arnold Newman was a portrait of Krupp,
Speaker 1: who was a family member of the Krupp family that
Speaker 1: manufactured all the armaments for both World Wars in Germany.
Speaker 1: And I realized that if we didn't teach our children
Speaker 1: a better way of dealing with each other, that humanity
Speaker 1: itself was in deep trouble. And that's when I got
Speaker 1: to finish teach your children. The recording of it was
Speaker 1: pretty simple. It was me and Stephen on acoustic guitars
Speaker 1: and Dallas Taylor, our drummer, on tambourine, and we have
Speaker 1: made the track and we realized that it needed a solo,
Speaker 1: and Steven said, you know, forgive me, but I'm kind
Speaker 1: of tired of doing solos. I've done. I've done a
Speaker 1: lot of solos, you know, is there any other thing
Speaker 1: that we can figure out? And Crosby said, hey, wait
Speaker 1: a second. Jerry Garcia has been learning pedal steel for
Speaker 1: the last three months. Maybe Jerry can put pedal steel
Speaker 1: on it. So we made a demo, a rough mix
Speaker 1: of the track. I told David to go over to Jerry,
Speaker 1: who was in the next studio with the Dead in
Speaker 1: Wally Hiders in San Francisco, and see if Jerry likes
Speaker 1: the song, and if he likes the song, does he
Speaker 1: want to put the pedal steel. He loved the song.
Speaker 1: He came in, he brought his pedal steel in the studio.
Speaker 1: I played it. He played the first take. I said, fantastic, unbelievable,
Speaker 1: that's exactly what this song needed. And Jerry said, and
Speaker 1: you know, I made a couple of mistakes. Do you
Speaker 1: mind if I do a second track? And I said, absolutely,
Speaker 1: you can do a second track, but I gotta tell
Speaker 1: you I'm not going to use it. What you just
Speaker 1: did when you were learning the song was so perfect.
Speaker 1: We did take the two notes that were out slightly
Speaker 1: wrong out of his second track, but I used that
Speaker 1: first track because it was beautiful, and I think it
Speaker 1: was a great deal of the reason why it became
Speaker 1: such a big hit. Two things interesting about that story.
Speaker 1: The first one is a photograph, so another form of
Speaker 1: art that you're interested in inspires the lyric. Yes, and
Speaker 1: then the happenstance of Jerry Garcia happened to be in
Speaker 1: the next studio, happened to be learning this new instrument,
Speaker 1: David happened to know that. It's like, there's so much
Speaker 1: that just and you say that might that's part of
Speaker 1: why the song is the song. Yeah, it's an amazing
Speaker 1: confluence of events, so many of which that are out
Speaker 1: of our control when we're making something great that it's
Speaker 1: a marvel and to witness it happen again and again,
Speaker 1: because we've got to see this over the course of
Speaker 1: our lives, over and over again. It's a true mystical
Speaker 1: experience when you see these elements come together in a
Speaker 1: way that it seems almost random, but through the recognition
Speaker 1: of oh maybe maybe if this with that right, maybe
Speaker 1: that'll work. It's amazing. Yeah, amazing, because you know, we
Speaker 1: wouldn't finding our way through music, but always keeping in
Speaker 1: mind what is right for the track. And Jerry's solo
Speaker 1: at the beginning and the solo in the middle, of course,
Speaker 1: was just perfect for the track, and he'd done it
Speaker 1: in one take and amazing. I love one takes. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm with Neil on that thing. I love when you've
Speaker 1: done a song in the studio you know, twenty times
Speaker 1: it loses something, you know, and I've been lucky enough
Speaker 1: to recognize when it's right, agree under and to argue
Speaker 1: the opposite point. Beatles did a lot of takes, and
Speaker 1: I really like those records. Yes, yes, that's true. So yeah,
Speaker 1: but you know there's probably Beatles songs that were done
Speaker 1: in one take too. Oh, absolutely absolutely. But I think
Speaker 1: if we listened to him, we wouldn't say the one
Speaker 1: take songs are necessarily better than the ones that know
Speaker 1: more effort. It's like whatever is right for like you're
Speaker 1: taking care of each song in the way that's best
Speaker 1: for that song, whatever that is. If it's one take, great,
Speaker 1: and if it's trying it many times until you find
Speaker 1: the way, it's like, we don't know, we can't know, no,
Speaker 1: but we know when it's right, absolutely, and that's the
Speaker 1: best and it's the best feeling because until it's right,
Speaker 1: I always have the feeling we don't have a we
Speaker 1: don't have a way to make it right until you
Speaker 1: do it, until we happen to recognize that it's already right. Yes,
Speaker 1: you can't do it in advance, that's right, and it
Speaker 1: takes courage to do that, you know, it takes courage
Speaker 1: to tell Jerry Garcia, you know, you know, sure you
Speaker 1: can do a second track, but I'm never gonna Okay,
Speaker 1: they had the song that had very CSN like harmony
Speaker 1: Uncle John's band. Was the fact that you guys were
Speaker 1: recording next to them, that have any impact on that
Speaker 1: song coming into existence, do you know? Undoubtedly they would
Speaker 1: come into the studio and watch what we did and
Speaker 1: how we did it. Yeah, and then they started to
Speaker 1: do that because they like harmonies too, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's such a specific thing what Crusby, Stills and
Speaker 1: Nash does, and that's one of the few songs, a
Speaker 1: NANCSN song that has the makings of a CSN like
Speaker 1: blend right. They started to do what we did, which
Speaker 1: was we'd put up an eighty seven and we'd open
Speaker 1: it up all the way around and we'd just stand
Speaker 1: the three of us and I would stand further away
Speaker 1: from the microphone than David did, because I have this
Speaker 1: voice that cuts through everything. It's just the way my
Speaker 1: voice is. And when they saw that that we were
Speaker 1: position in ourselves around an open microphone, they took that
Speaker 1: and did that and that's how they started to record
Speaker 1: because normally they would put Jerry would put his part on,
Speaker 1: and then Phil would put his part on, and then twhoever.
Speaker 1: You know, right, in general, is there a difference between
Speaker 1: singing together versus stacking tracks? Absolutely? That example, absolutely, Tell
Speaker 1: me about it. Tell me about what happens different What
Speaker 1: happens differently is vibration when the three of us are
Speaker 1: singing around a microphone, knowing which distance each one of
Speaker 1: us needs to be to get the blend correct. It
Speaker 1: takes work to do that, but we managed to do
Speaker 1: that totally naturally, because there is a difference between when
Speaker 1: you put on a melody and then you double that,
Speaker 1: and you put on a harmony and then you do that.
Speaker 1: But with individual takes, there isn't the DNA blend of
Speaker 1: three voices hitting the air at the same time. It's
Speaker 1: a different sound if it's only one voice after another voice.
Speaker 1: It's fascinating because so few artists do it that way
Speaker 1: as well, so few we could do it though. Yeah,
Speaker 1: do you remember did you all wear headphones when you
Speaker 1: were doing it or were you singing with your no headphones?
Speaker 1: Do you remember? Yeah? I do remember. We always use
Speaker 1: headphones with just one with one right, so that we
Speaker 1: had the other ear free to be able to listen
Speaker 1: to what the other guys were doing. We wouldn't put
Speaker 1: both headphones on. We would only put one side on.
Speaker 1: Understood for the blend part of it of knowing where
Speaker 1: you were standing. That was more based on what you
Speaker 1: were hearing in the phone, I imagine, because you couldn't
Speaker 1: tell how it was affecting the mic just looking at it, right,
Speaker 1: But then the other ear was for the true mingling
Speaker 1: of the frequencies. Yes, exactly in real life, exactly right.
Speaker 1: Because it is different. It's hard to explain how when
Speaker 1: you put on headphones it's just different. Yes, it is.
Speaker 1: Then you have to deal with it. But we knew,
Speaker 1: we knew how to do our voices. Like I said,
Speaker 1: that sound csn hand vocally. It was done in forty
Speaker 1: five seconds. It was not saying it just bloody happened,
Speaker 1: and it happened so beautifully that I then made I
Speaker 1: have to go to England and undo my life. I
Speaker 1: want to follow this sound. This sound is amazing. I mean, yes,
Speaker 1: anyone can sing the same notes that we can. You
Speaker 1: can't sound like us. Yeah, we'll be back after a
Speaker 1: quick break with more from Rick Rubin and Graham Nash.
Speaker 1: We're back with Rick Rubin's conversation with Graham Nash. Coming
Speaker 1: from England, did you have any sense of feeling like
Speaker 1: an outsider when you came absolutely different than the other people. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but I was an outsider that I had a history
Speaker 1: of knowing how to make hit records because I'd been
Speaker 1: in the Hollies for seven years and like I said,
Speaker 1: we had fifteen or so top ten records. So I
Speaker 1: wasn't outsider, but I came with a certain weight. Yes,
Speaker 1: And you came post British invasion, where basically all of
Speaker 1: the music being made in California at that time, in
Speaker 1: what's one form or another, seemed to be influenced by
Speaker 1: what was going on in England. Yeah. We were amazed
Speaker 1: in England that we would take American songs and sing
Speaker 1: them with a kind of a British accent and sell
Speaker 1: them back to the Americans. That was weird to us,
Speaker 1: but it's what we did, you know, Because you'd have
Speaker 1: somebody that was in the Merchant Navy. You'd have a
Speaker 1: brother or a cousin or somebody, and they would go
Speaker 1: to America and they were musicians, so they would bring
Speaker 1: records back. So we were hearing all the Miracles and
Speaker 1: Barrett Strong and all these really strange rhythm and blues
Speaker 1: things that hadn't hit the charts in England. And yeah,
Speaker 1: the British Invasion. What a strange theme that was. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we're making all this American music and singing it with
Speaker 1: a British accent and selling it right back to the Americans.
Speaker 1: This is amazing. Yeah, I think there's something about I
Speaker 1: think it's more than just singing it with a British accent.
Speaker 1: I think the romantic view from a distance allows a
Speaker 1: different interpretation, not even just in the accents, but even
Speaker 1: in the way the music's approached. It's like, we can
Speaker 1: use the example of led Zeppelin and the American blues
Speaker 1: that it's based on. No American blues man would take
Speaker 1: it to such bombastic. It would be unseemly to do
Speaker 1: what led Zeppelin did from the blues master perspective. Yet
Speaker 1: they were taking this fantasy from a distance in the
Speaker 1: same way that Sergio Leone made the Spaghetti Westerns that
Speaker 1: were different than the Western Westerns. It's like seeing it
Speaker 1: from a distance can give you a romantic vision of
Speaker 1: it that's bigger than the reality of the situation. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it feels like the Hollies had that. It's like, yes,
Speaker 1: there was the influence of the American music, but it
Speaker 1: didn't sound like the American music because you guys were
Speaker 1: different and your life experience was different, right, And we'd
Speaker 1: all we'd all learned, you know, from skiffle. You know,
Speaker 1: we'd all learned from from early folk music. And we
Speaker 1: started out in dance halls, and we wanted to make
Speaker 1: music that people could dance too, and we wanted to
Speaker 1: make them think too, and why not do both things
Speaker 1: at the same time. But yeah, the Hollies did have
Speaker 1: a certain sound that was different than American bands, that's
Speaker 1: for sure. And let's talk about skiffle a little bit,
Speaker 1: because that was not something that happened in the United States, no,
Speaker 1: or at least it didn't happen as being called skiffle.
Speaker 1: Tell me about skiffle. There was an Irish folk singer
Speaker 1: called Lonnie Donegan, and he went to America and he
Speaker 1: witnessed Lad Belly and he witnessed all these blues people
Speaker 1: and how simple it was. Big Bill runs just on
Speaker 1: acoustic guitar, and he brought that music back with him
Speaker 1: from America. So now you have to think of Okay,
Speaker 1: in the late fifties, it was only ten years since
Speaker 1: World War two happened, and there was nothing that fifteen
Speaker 1: and sixteen year old kids could do, particularly where I lived,
Speaker 1: there was nothing to do. Really. You had a ball
Speaker 1: you could kick around or play cricket with, you know,
Speaker 1: but there was no There was no music because we
Speaker 1: couldn't afford it. And then skiffle came along, where if
Speaker 1: you had a cheap acoustic guitar and you created a
Speaker 1: bass from a t chest box with a pole and
Speaker 1: a string that you could play the bass, and for
Speaker 1: the drums you would put thimbles on your right hand
Speaker 1: if you right handed, and we had a washboard, which
Speaker 1: is an instrument that your grandmother used to wash clothes
Speaker 1: with and go stop, and so it was simple, it
Speaker 1: was cheap. We could afford to do that, and we
Speaker 1: all of a sudden we had something to do and
Speaker 1: we followed it directly. We loved skiffle and it started
Speaker 1: the background of our musical journey. And Lonnie Dogan is
Speaker 1: very famous in England. I mean, ask anybody, they all
Speaker 1: know who Lonnie Donigan was because he was very important
Speaker 1: in the creation of music in England. I guess the
Speaker 1: closest approximation we had in the United States would have
Speaker 1: been jug band music, which wasn't particularly popular. It was
Speaker 1: more of an a tiny regional fringe movement. Yes, so
Speaker 1: Lonnie Donigan must have seen that. I had no idea
Speaker 1: that the roots of skiffle were rooted in American music.
Speaker 1: I never would have guessed that. They never would have
Speaker 1: guessed that directly. Fascinating. Yeah, I have one more song
Speaker 1: to ask about, so I'll ask about it before I
Speaker 1: go on. Okay, the next song to ask about is
Speaker 1: just a Song before I Go, which was the biggest
Speaker 1: hit of the band. Yeah. If I knew it was
Speaker 1: going to be such a big hit, i'd written a
Speaker 1: better song. Just A song started very simply. It was
Speaker 1: me on piano. I've been to England to visit my
Speaker 1: mother who wasn't feeling too well and she was in hospital.
Speaker 1: And during that visit I stood on the steps of
Speaker 1: the Midland Hotel in Manchester. That was the same steps
Speaker 1: that Alan and I had met the Evely brothers in
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two. And I was standing on the steps
Speaker 1: of the Middleland Hotel and I was watching people come
Speaker 1: and go. I realized that half of them didn't like
Speaker 1: their job, didn't like their boss, hated work, but had
Speaker 1: to do it, digging graves, doing whatever is they had
Speaker 1: to do. And I realized that why me? Why did
Speaker 1: I leave and become famous when I knew a lot
Speaker 1: of musicians that were better than me, that weren't famous.
Speaker 1: You know, it was really strange. Anyway, I took a
Speaker 1: small vacation. Me and David and Stephen were in a
Speaker 1: studio in Los Angeles making a record. We decided to
Speaker 1: take a small break from each other. I went to
Speaker 1: Hawaii and I went to the home of a friend
Speaker 1: of mine, acquaintance really named Spider, and he was a
Speaker 1: drug dealer, just marijuana. And I had, you know, about
Speaker 1: an hour and a half, two hours before I had
Speaker 1: to catch a plane back to the studio. And as
Speaker 1: I got up to leave, he said, wait a second,
Speaker 1: you're supposed to be some big shot songwriter. I bet
Speaker 1: you can't write a song just before you go. I
Speaker 1: said what he said, I'll bet you can't write a
Speaker 1: song just before you go right now? I said how much?
Speaker 1: He said, five hundred dollars. I said five hundred dollars.
Speaker 1: I sat down and I wrote just a song before
Speaker 1: I go in an hour and twenty minutes. It was
Speaker 1: amazing and in terms of an incredible circle. On my
Speaker 1: last tour, at the end of a show leaving and
Speaker 1: a lady gives me a small envelope, I put it
Speaker 1: in my back pocket and I forgot about that I
Speaker 1: had it there. I'm getting dressed the next morning and
Speaker 1: I realized, I have an envelope that I haven't opened.
Speaker 1: And I opened it up and guess what was inside?
Speaker 1: A check for five hundred dollars from the family of
Speaker 1: the kid that made me write the song in the
Speaker 1: first place. They realized that he was a dealer, that
Speaker 1: he probably hadn't paid me, and they were going to
Speaker 1: pay me and they did. Wow, I didn't. I just
Speaker 1: cashed the check, of course. No. It's an incredible story, yeah, amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and what a great song. So that's a song that
Speaker 1: you wrote on a challenge, Yes, a total challenge. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it shows it can come from anywhere. It doesn't.
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be because it wasn't some lightning
Speaker 1: bolt hit you and this magic song came out. No,
Speaker 1: it was a five hundred dollar bet before you were
Speaker 1: flying off. Yeah, this kid's not going to beat me
Speaker 1: for five hundred dollars, that's for sure. Unbelievable. And he
Speaker 1: sent me the original lyrics, actually the original piece of
Speaker 1: paper that I wrote it on, which I have fantastic.
Speaker 1: Tell me about Nash editions. Okay, I'd gotten a Mac
Speaker 1: computer in nineteen eighty two or something very early. You
Speaker 1: could actually scan things. It was called a thunderscan and
Speaker 1: it moved across the image and it transferred all the
Speaker 1: information into the computer. And I was getting interesting images
Speaker 1: on the screen. I couldn't get him off the screen
Speaker 1: in a way that satisfied me. I tried photographing them.
Speaker 1: I tried inkjet prints, I tried thermal prints, and I
Speaker 1: couldn't get them off the screen. So this friend of mine,
Speaker 1: Charles Wirremberg in San Francisco, who is a scientist, called
Speaker 1: me one day and he said, hey, have you have
Speaker 1: you seen this printer that Fuji are putting out? And
Speaker 1: I said no, and I he gave me the name
Speaker 1: of the master printer in Los Angeles that was working
Speaker 1: the machine. I went to see it check it out.
Speaker 1: It was incredible. You know that when you're standing waiting
Speaker 1: to go into the cinema and you see those posters
Speaker 1: for the upcoming shows. Well, this machine was made to
Speaker 1: do that. Cheap paper but great color. So I found
Speaker 1: out someone who was using the machine and went down
Speaker 1: to check it out with my friend Mac, and I
Speaker 1: saw this machine, which looks like a small refrigerator, but
Speaker 1: it has a hood that you lift it up in.
Speaker 1: It has a drum that you attached the paper too,
Speaker 1: and it spins a million miles an hour, and these
Speaker 1: four print heads are spraying ink at it as it's
Speaker 1: going round. That sounds weird. And it's going round at
Speaker 1: twelve miles an hour and you're spraying ink on it
Speaker 1: and it's turning out like this. It was one hundred
Speaker 1: twenty five thousand dollars for the printer. I bought it immediately,
Speaker 1: and I wanted the machine to do what I wanted
Speaker 1: it to do. I want a thicker paper. I had
Speaker 1: to move the print heads a little further away because
Speaker 1: of the thickness of the paper, so I had to
Speaker 1: avoid the warranty within the first ten minutes. And I
Speaker 1: didn't care because I was forcing this machine that I
Speaker 1: had seen make this photograph looking print. I wanted it
Speaker 1: to do black and white and fantastic stuff purely for me. Yes,
Speaker 1: And then we decided that in eighty nine that we
Speaker 1: would open this up as Nash Editions and be the
Speaker 1: first portfolio maker in the world to do black and
Speaker 1: white inkjet prints. And not only that, but we got
Speaker 1: a beautiful medal from the Smithsonian Institution and my first
Speaker 1: printer is in the Smithsonian Museum in the American History Museum. Incredible.
Speaker 1: It was funny. I was a mean sushi in Boston
Speaker 1: once and a couple of people recognize me, and I
Speaker 1: took no notice of that. And as I'm leaving this
Speaker 1: lady shouts out, hey, Graham, and I'm expecting, where's Neil,
Speaker 1: you know, who did you screw last night? And what
Speaker 1: call the sults you have on? And all she said
Speaker 1: was great, Prince, And I went, wow, Okay, you've made it.
Speaker 1: I've made it. It's another beautiful story where you're making
Speaker 1: something for yourself and it's so good that you open
Speaker 1: it up to the world to participate, because that's how
Speaker 1: good it is. It's the same with all my songs.
Speaker 1: I only write songs for me. I don't write for
Speaker 1: anybody else, just me. But if you like the song
Speaker 1: and you want to do it fantastic. Now it's to
Speaker 1: see us and song. We have to take another quick
Speaker 1: break and then we'll be back with more from Graham Nash.
Speaker 1: We're back with the rest of Rick Rubbins conversation with
Speaker 1: Graham Nash. I read a story, I don't know if
Speaker 1: this is true, maybe apocrypha, that there was a cs
Speaker 1: AND reunion in Sauceldo in nineteen seventy four and the
Speaker 1: band ended up breaking up during those sessions over an
Speaker 1: argument over a harmony note choice. Does that ring true? Yep?
Speaker 1: Do you mind talking about it? Yeah, there were two
Speaker 1: times it happened. Once in my house in San Francisco.
Speaker 1: Stephen had this song that I was putting my harmony
Speaker 1: on and he wanted me to sing a minor set
Speaker 1: of changes through a major chord on the track. And
Speaker 1: I have to admit, I think I'm pretty good at
Speaker 1: what I do as a harmony singer, and my body
Speaker 1: couldn't do it. I could not every time I came
Speaker 1: to the chorus. Whether you wanted me to sing in
Speaker 1: minor thing through a major set of changes, I couldn't.
Speaker 1: My body couldn't do it. And Stephen got so angry
Speaker 1: that he We had just mixed my song win on
Speaker 1: the Water and gotten a master two track of it,
Speaker 1: and he sliced it up with a race of blade. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And another time it happened, and I think it's this
Speaker 1: ALSOLDO one that you're referring to. We were playing a
Speaker 1: song of David's called Homeward through the Haze, very beautiful song,
Speaker 1: and for some reason one of the bass parts was
Speaker 1: not quite right, and we began arguing about whether it
Speaker 1: was right or whether it was not, And all of
Speaker 1: a sudden I look over to where Neil was sitting
Speaker 1: and Neil wasn't there. He just left. He just gone. Amazing.
Speaker 1: The same happened when we were making the record in
Speaker 1: Fort Lauderdale. I'd have been having breakfast with Neil every
Speaker 1: day at the hotel, right, and for some reason, he's
Speaker 1: not there at ten o'clock and I call the front desk,
Speaker 1: I said, as mister Young been around. They said, yeah,
Speaker 1: he left this morning for San Francisco. I said, we're wait,
Speaker 1: we're in the middle of it's Neil amazing. He was gone.
Speaker 1: And that's why not robing a song called Mutiny. It's
Speaker 1: funny in the different examples, it was always a Crosby song. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: beautiful song though. Yeah, an amazing writer. David was an
Speaker 1: amazing writer. I mean his sense of combining these strange
Speaker 1: guitar tunings with the jazz feel made him a completely
Speaker 1: unique musician. I don't know anybody that writes music like Crosby.
Speaker 1: It's interesting hearing you tell the story of Marrakesh Express
Speaker 1: and it being inspired by the beat poets and essentially
Speaker 1: the drug culture. And while there's a tremendous emphasis on
Speaker 1: drug use in Crosby, Tilson Nash, you're usually viewed as
Speaker 1: the grounded, straight person, or that's the perception in the
Speaker 1: outside world, is that the other two guys are off
Speaker 1: the rails. So it's interesting to hear that you were
Speaker 1: also a participant. Yeah, with Crosby, I mean I tried everything.
Speaker 1: I tried not taking any drugs. I tried taking more
Speaker 1: drugs than he was taking. I tried everything. But you know,
Speaker 1: having been in the Hollies and had all these success
Speaker 1: I was kind of stable and I knew what was
Speaker 1: best for us. And I've always kept the music in
Speaker 1: the forefront of my mind, and I've always been the
Speaker 1: one that says no wait a second. If something's wrong,
Speaker 1: let's figure out a way where we can all win.
Speaker 1: And I've always been that kind of person since I
Speaker 1: was a kid. Tell me about one of my favorite
Speaker 1: vocal performances is not on one of your albums, and
Speaker 1: I only recently found out that it's you singing, and
Speaker 1: that's on Donovan's song Happiness Run. Yes, I love the song,
Speaker 1: and I used that outro as a reference for musicians
Speaker 1: all the time, talking about what interesting arrangements you could
Speaker 1: do vocally. Don't think of it just as the lead voice. Right,
Speaker 1: here's an example of the vocals are the whole thing
Speaker 1: and the relationship between the different vocals. Tell me how
Speaker 1: that came about and the writing of it and everything
Speaker 1: about it. Donovan was the man that taught me how
Speaker 1: to play finger pick a guitar. I couldn't do it
Speaker 1: before he showed me how to do it. And he
Speaker 1: was a big fan of mine, and he knew that
Speaker 1: the Hollies were not happening in my mind anyway. He
Speaker 1: played me this song, Happiness Runs, and I realized that
Speaker 1: it was a perfect example of a round meaning you
Speaker 1: could go happiness runs in a happiness runs in all
Speaker 1: happiness runs. You know you can make a round of it, yes,
Speaker 1: like row row row your boat, exact famous round that
Speaker 1: most people knew, right, And yeah, it was very easy
Speaker 1: to do. We did it in ten minutes, really easy
Speaker 1: because it was the song was there. We just had
Speaker 1: to make it sound more interesting than it was. It's
Speaker 1: great and that the interaction of the vocals at the
Speaker 1: end make the whole thing. I absolutely love it great. Oh,
Speaker 1: this is interesting. I've seen footage of Crosby Stills in
Speaker 1: Nash playing at Esselyn in Big Sir, and Esselyn was
Speaker 1: sort of a hippie capital and the birth of the
Speaker 1: Human Potential movement took place there. So it was forward
Speaker 1: thinking place, lots of young people, naked, hot springs. Yes,
Speaker 1: And interestingly, Crosby, Sials and Nash show up with these
Speaker 1: D forty five very expensive guitar, the most expensive guitar
Speaker 1: you could buy from Martin and wearing fur coats into
Speaker 1: this piece and love hippie world. And it's a wild juxtaposition.
Speaker 1: And just wanted to ask you what do you remember
Speaker 1: about that? Did thought go into it? Tell me everything?
Speaker 1: Esseelin was exactly how you described, particularly the hot tubs
Speaker 1: and the naked Ladies. Joanie was there at that time,
Speaker 1: and she had a song that she used to end
Speaker 1: her shows with called get Together, and we would casually
Speaker 1: get up there and sing. And she didn't mind, you know,
Speaker 1: at all, because she knew how good we were, and
Speaker 1: so if we got up there to sing, it was
Speaker 1: going to be okay. And it was like a gang
Speaker 1: sing at the end, you know. But what I remember
Speaker 1: most about Esseelin is that Johnie and I were growing
Speaker 1: more apart by the minute. And there's a photograph of
Speaker 1: me and Joanie explaining each other to each other that
Speaker 1: somebody took. That is a perfect example of what it
Speaker 1: was that I was feeling during that Eselent thing because
Speaker 1: Johnie and I were breaking up. Basically, tell me about
Speaker 1: David Blue. It's all over now. David Blue was a
Speaker 1: fine songwriter in New York City at the same time
Speaker 1: that Dylan was upcoming, David Blue was upcoming. I liked
Speaker 1: his songs. I brought him to my studio in San
Speaker 1: Francisco and recorded a great album with him called Nice
Speaker 1: Baby in the Angel. In my book of photographs that
Speaker 1: I put out recently, there's a photograph of David Blue
Speaker 1: and he's smoking a cigarette but he has a cigarette
Speaker 1: in each hand. And that was David Blue. He was
Speaker 1: a man that felt that he didn't get enough dues
Speaker 1: because this other guy, Bob Dylan, was taking most of
Speaker 1: the headlines, even though David felt that he was already.
Speaker 1: Maybe Dylan took his name and it's all over now,
Speaker 1: baby Blue. You know who knows. But David David was
Speaker 1: a nice man. Do you know anything about Leonard Khne's
Speaker 1: relationship with David Blue? No, interesting that Leonard Khne always
Speaker 1: had a feeling the way that David Blue felt as
Speaker 1: it related to Bob. Leonard had some feeling that the
Speaker 1: relationship between him and David Blue, like maybe why isn't
Speaker 1: it David Blue? And why is it me? You know,
Speaker 1: like like he he didn't understand there was the opposite
Speaker 1: side of the David Blue story of why do I
Speaker 1: have the success versus David Blue? Like almost like imposter syndrome. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And then David was very cognizant of that. He understood
Speaker 1: that he was being completely shadowed. But he was a
Speaker 1: decent songwriter and I enjoyed that album that I made
Speaker 1: with him, Beautiful. In one of the stories I read
Speaker 1: about Crosbie Silson, Nash reunion attempts. It happened in the
Speaker 1: famous studio in Miami. Oh yeah, Criteria, Yeah, Criteria. What
Speaker 1: was it about Criteria in the seventies that drew so
Speaker 1: many artists. First of all, it's a great studio. There's
Speaker 1: a great sound in the studio, and that's why a
Speaker 1: lot of artists got there. But also there were two
Speaker 1: ladies that provided a service that was great. You could
Speaker 1: rent a house and they would do all the cooking
Speaker 1: and they would clean all the beds and do all
Speaker 1: that stuff. And that's exactly what we did. That's what
Speaker 1: Eric had done previously one on his album. And so
Speaker 1: that combination of not being in Hollywood and being in
Speaker 1: a sunny being in a sunny place with the same
Speaker 1: kind of freedoms and Criteria had a great sound and
Speaker 1: we took advantage of it. For sure. Beautiful because I
Speaker 1: always wondered because Miami was not really a hot spot
Speaker 1: at that point in time, but so many great artists
Speaker 1: all were traveling there and I never really knew what
Speaker 1: the draw was. But that's interesting that there was like
Speaker 1: a live in situation, yes, that you could go off
Speaker 1: and make a record and everything would be taken care
Speaker 1: of besides you being in the studio making the music right.
Speaker 1: And as you say, it was out of the way.
Speaker 1: It wasn't Hollywood. Yeah, you know, it wasn't New York.
Speaker 1: It was completely out of the way in terms of
Speaker 1: why Miami. But it was the combination of a sound
Speaker 1: of the studio itself and the availability of being able
Speaker 1: to rent a house away. You didn't have to think.
Speaker 1: Tell me about Judy sil Judy was a very interesting woman.
Speaker 1: I think she was a brilliant composer. I think that
Speaker 1: she wasn't pretty enough to be a Joni Mitchell kind
Speaker 1: of long blonde hair, folksinging kind of thing. She opened
Speaker 1: up on a tour that David and I did for
Speaker 1: about two or three weeks. She would often drive in
Speaker 1: the car with David and I. She was darkly funny,
Speaker 1: and the more she told us about her life, the
Speaker 1: more amazing she got. She told us she used to
Speaker 1: you know, she was a hooker at one point, but
Speaker 1: her love of music was undeniable, and she loved a
Speaker 1: particular guitar that I had. It was a Martin D
Speaker 1: twenty eight, and at the end of the tour I
Speaker 1: gave it to her. But Judy was a really interesting woman,
Speaker 1: and I think that a lot of people I'm now
Speaker 1: being turned onto her music. I recorded a song with
Speaker 1: her called Jesus was a Crossmaker. I thought that that
Speaker 1: might be a radio hit. But that's the only track
Speaker 1: that I ever produced for Judy. But it was a
Speaker 1: good creative experience. Yes, very much so. I only got
Speaker 1: turned onto her recently and find the music very, very beautiful. Yes,
Speaker 1: she was a I'm profound songwriter. How do you think
Speaker 1: the last chapter of your father's life impacted your choices
Speaker 1: going forward in life? A great deal. My father went
Speaker 1: to jail for about a year for a camera that
Speaker 1: he had bought from a friend of his at work,
Speaker 1: and the police came to the door and wanting to
Speaker 1: know who it was, and sold it to him. My
Speaker 1: father wouldn't tell them, and he ended up in a
Speaker 1: jail for a year, and he died at forty six.
Speaker 1: It affects my life in the following way. I always
Speaker 1: cheer for the underdog. I'm always championing the team that's
Speaker 1: not supposed to win. And a very interesting thing happened
Speaker 1: to me. I'd written a song called the Prison Song,
Speaker 1: and the first verses about my father, I was in
Speaker 1: Granada Television in Manchester. I was doing a show and
Speaker 1: I was singing that song. Also on the show tape
Speaker 1: was the judge that sentenced my father to prison. You
Speaker 1: must believe that I was in a very strange state
Speaker 1: of mind. Nobody else knew except me. Nobody knew. I
Speaker 1: don't even know how to process it. What tell me?
Speaker 1: Did you want to leave? Did you want Yeah? I
Speaker 1: wanted to get to him and you know, tell him
Speaker 1: off for doing that. I mean, I wrote every ridiculous
Speaker 1: thing to even think of doing. But he was on
Speaker 1: tape and he wasn't available for me to converse with him.
Speaker 1: But what a strange event, me singing the song about
Speaker 1: my father in prison with the judge that put him
Speaker 1: in prison. Unbelievable. Did you grow up in Manchester or Blackpool?
Speaker 1: I was born in Blackpool. I lived I lived in Salford,
Speaker 1: which was one of the slums of England, which is
Speaker 1: a suburb of Manchester. But during the World War Two,
Speaker 1: they would evacuate all the pregnant ladies outside the bombing
Speaker 1: area to have their children in peace. And that's that's
Speaker 1: why I ended up being born in Blackpool, which I
Speaker 1: never lived there. I was just born there. I actually,
Speaker 1: quite a few years ago, took two of my sons
Speaker 1: into that room and I ended up. I started. I
Speaker 1: went into the hotel, which is on the front in Blackpool,
Speaker 1: and I looked at the guy that was in the
Speaker 1: front desk and I said, I have a really strange question.
Speaker 1: He said, it's you go around, Dane. It's down right
Speaker 1: down the stairs. I said, how did you know that?
Speaker 1: He said, listen, a lot of you've come here and
Speaker 1: you wanted anyway. He pointed me to the room and
Speaker 1: there was the room. And I'm breathing in the room
Speaker 1: in which I took my first breath. Wow, and maybe
Speaker 1: see so cool? I know my life is full of this. Yeah, magic,
Speaker 1: We're black, we are blessed, indeed we are. We'll tell
Speaker 1: me about living in New York. Is this the first
Speaker 1: time you've ever lived in New York? Yes? I'd been
Speaker 1: to New York many times, you know, sometimes for a
Speaker 1: couple of days, sometimes for a couple of weeks. And
Speaker 1: I couldn't wait to get out of here. What changed?
Speaker 1: What changed is I divorced my wife, Susan, after thirty
Speaker 1: seven years of marriage. We were not in love. It
Speaker 1: was totally over we divorced. I'm playing a show with
Speaker 1: David and Stephen at the Beacon here in New York City,
Speaker 1: and Amy and I shook hands, and I believe at
Speaker 1: that point I knew what I needed to do. I
Speaker 1: needed to find out more about this woman, find out
Speaker 1: who she is, what she does, and every question. And
Speaker 1: I asked myself, she answered in total brilliant. She's a
Speaker 1: brilliant artist. And I wish now that I had been
Speaker 1: strong enough to realize earlier that my marriage to Susan
Speaker 1: was over and I should have been living in New
Speaker 1: York for twenty years. And this is an incredible city.
Speaker 1: I've said it before, but I one of the things
Speaker 1: that I love about it is hearing five different accents
Speaker 1: on the way to get a cup of coffee, you know,
Speaker 1: and then when you add the galleries, and you know,
Speaker 1: this is a fantastic city. And I wish I'd have
Speaker 1: been here for many years, but I have been here
Speaker 1: for at least eight now. Amazing, amazing and beautiful that
Speaker 1: you got to meet your partner after all these years,
Speaker 1: and after being in an unhappy situation for a long time,
Speaker 1: It's again a blessing. Don't forget the opening line of
Speaker 1: my album, I used to think that I could never
Speaker 1: love again, but I did. I found it again. Don't
Speaker 1: screw it up. I'm trying my best. I really, I
Speaker 1: mean I am trying my best. I mean living with
Speaker 1: some with another person is difficult. It's full of compromises.
Speaker 1: But I'm learning every day and she's teaching me everything
Speaker 1: that I thought I knew. Beautiful, congratulations, Thank you, can't
Speaker 1: wait for the new album. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: doing this. I loved talking to you, love seeing you,
Speaker 1: and can't wait till we get to hug in person.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Rich, thank you, You're welcome kid. Thanks again
Speaker 1: to Graham Nash for sharing stories from his magical life
Speaker 1: with us. His new album Now is out in May.
Speaker 1: In the meantime, you can hear all of our favorite Crosby,
Speaker 1: Stills and Nash and sometimes Why songs at Broken Record
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. You can subscribe to our YouTube channel
Speaker 1: at YouTube dot com slash Broken Record Podcast. We can
Speaker 1: find all of our new episodes. You can follow us
Speaker 1: on Twitter at broken Record. Broken Record is produced with
Speaker 1: help from me A Rose, Jason Gambrell, Ben Taliday, and
Speaker 1: Eric Sandler. Our editor is so Ukraine. Broken Record is
Speaker 1: a production of Pushkin Industries. If you love this show
Speaker 1: and others from Pushkin, consider subscribing to Pushkin Plus. Pushkin
Speaker 1: Plus is a podcast subscription that offers bonus content and
Speaker 1: uninterrupted actually listening for four ninety nine a month. Look
Speaker 1: for Pushkin Plus on Apple podcast subscriptions, and if you
Speaker 1: like the show, please remember to share, rate, and review
Speaker 1: us on your podcast. A theme musics by Kenny Beats.
Speaker 1: I'm justin Richmond.