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Speaker 1: Cold Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to the It Could Happen Here Spooky Special.

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Speaker 2: I'm Garrison Davis. I hope you had a pleasantly frightful Halloween.

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Speaker 3: I just got back from Berlin.

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Speaker 2: And had a very scary time at the Amsterdam airport

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Speaker 2: and will forever hold a grudge against the Dutch people.

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Speaker 2: But in Berlin I attended the twenty twenty five A

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Speaker 2: Culture Conference, which seeks to explore the relationship between occultism

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Speaker 2: and culture. My first A Culture episode last week gave

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Speaker 2: an overview on the subject of A culture and talked

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Speaker 2: with a panel of artists and magic practitioners about some

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Speaker 2: of the dominant topical currents throughout the conference, namely william

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Speaker 2: S Burrows, the cut up method, and the tension around

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Speaker 2: generative AI. This episode will follow up on discussions of

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Speaker 2: AI and digital technomancy and compare those to the other

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Speaker 2: large current throughout the conference, the revival of traditional occult practices. Then,

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Speaker 2: the panel of Ryan Delta, Elaine and myself will debate

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Speaker 2: the role of occult practice in twenty twenty five and

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Speaker 2: the current ability of occultism to influence in shape culture

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Speaker 2: and politics. Now back to the panel, fast forwarding to

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Speaker 2: sadder Day. There was another block that focused on LMS

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Speaker 2: and digital technomancy called Pop Magic, Language and Reality Hacks.

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Speaker 2: The first discussion was titled Sigils of the Cyberspace How

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Speaker 2: Our Magicians Hack Reality with Pop Culture, which was put

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Speaker 2: on by a guy in a graduate program I am,

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Speaker 2: if I recall correctly specifically on Internet magic and digital

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Speaker 2: chaost magicians, who was based a lot of his research

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Speaker 2: on magicians that he'd come across on Reddit and discord.

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Speaker 2: He destured towards me magic and discussed what he called

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Speaker 2: techno pentheism, these forms of Internet gods.

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Speaker 4: I mean his focus was specifically on modern esoteric studies,

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Speaker 4: and his focus on video games and how video games

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Speaker 4: work and their interactions with magic for digital anthropology, which

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Speaker 4: is I think why he was doing all of his

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Speaker 4: research work via Reddit, forums and other like solely through

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Speaker 4: digital means. He had four categories of practices in magic

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Speaker 4: and tech that he was specifically researching, and from the

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Speaker 4: feeling of his talk, it does feel like this is

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Speaker 4: pretty early on in his research work. The first was

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Speaker 4: technological animism, the second was techno pantheism. The third was

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Speaker 4: the idea of servitor's familiars aggrigor's and tulpas, and the

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Speaker 4: fourth was digital sex magic.

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Speaker 2: Well, the third was digital sex magic, and the fourth

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Speaker 2: was just of the miscellaneous categorization for other practices that

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Speaker 2: did not neatly fit into those other three categories. Let's

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Speaker 2: talk mostly about the techno animism and the use of

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Speaker 2: specially trained llms to act as intermediaries between uniquely like

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Speaker 2: magically generated entities, like people who believe that they're making

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Speaker 2: autonomous magical entities like several tours, which is a cast

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Speaker 2: magic term, which is basically this four sourcing that a

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Speaker 2: magician believes to generate to accomplish small tasks in their life.

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Speaker 2: And the presenter discussed some magicians who were using llms

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Speaker 2: not as a host or as a manifestation of the severator,

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Speaker 2: like it doesn't live within the LLM, but the LLM

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Speaker 2: was being used as a translator to actually have communication

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Speaker 2: between the magician and the severator, especially if the sevrator

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Speaker 2: was not you know, humanoid or did not use like

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Speaker 2: human language. They try to communicate using the LM as

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Speaker 2: a translator, which I assume would come from especially training

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Speaker 2: like a localized LM with traits that you would associate

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Speaker 2: with your sevrator to make that communication match up with

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Speaker 2: like the you know, I guess I would say, the

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Speaker 2: personality characteristics of whatever magical being which you believe you

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Speaker 2: have conjured. The technoanimist idea is based around a modern

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Speaker 2: version of animism in which objects all have spirit, including computers,

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Speaker 2: and a series of superstitions around trying to make sure

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Speaker 2: the spirit in the computer is happy with you, that

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Speaker 2: your chill, so that the computer does not glitch or

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Speaker 2: mess up. Then there's various like superstitions like putting little

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Speaker 2: Taiwanese uh snacks on top of computers in Taiwan, or

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Speaker 2: you know, priests both Christian and non Christian priests like

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Speaker 2: blessing servers or computers cleansing them, cleansing gundams out of

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Speaker 2: at an expo in Japan. But this this idea that

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Speaker 2: that you know, tech technology, just like a sword or

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Speaker 2: a chair, might have its own spirit and treating treating

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Speaker 2: that as such. Also, you know, printers very prone to misbehaving,

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Speaker 2: so maybe you should treat the spirit in your printer

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Speaker 2: a little bit better, uh, to keep it in proper

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Speaker 2: working order.

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Speaker 5: That sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: The next talk, which was one of the most useful

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Speaker 2: talks in this in this whole like a AI discussion

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Speaker 2: The Devil in my l M, which was done by

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Speaker 2: Karen Vallis, who is an AI engineer, who basically was

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Speaker 2: explaining to magicians how lms actually work, Explaining to these

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Speaker 2: people who think that there's who are people who may

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Speaker 2: think that there's some kind of like magical operation, there's

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Speaker 2: some kind of like mystical operation with llms or elms

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Speaker 2: are their own no magical entity, explaining how this this

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Speaker 2: is just a probability machine, How how the actual process

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Speaker 2: of multiple different pathways gets enclosed upon by each exchange

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Speaker 2: you have with an LM which then produces, you know,

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Speaker 2: changes in their responses, and specifically discussing the phenomenon of

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Speaker 2: AI girlfriends who turn out to later quote unquote abuse

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Speaker 2: their users, like how does this thing that's meant to

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Speaker 2: be a you know, an AI companion or girlfriend become

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Speaker 2: hostile over time? And she spent thirty minutes explaining how

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Speaker 2: this like mathematically happens and various theories on how this happens.

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Speaker 3: So what you can make people like to think of

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Speaker 3: these l ms and generative AI as like neuromancer AIS

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Speaker 3: because there's a through line between you know, early cyberpunk,

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Speaker 3: from like William Gibson down to the c cr U

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Speaker 3: and of course Nick Land and people like Curtis Jarvin,

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Speaker 3: and these ideas are just severe and gross misunderstandings of

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Speaker 3: like fictional interpretations of artificial intelligence. Really, which some of

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Speaker 3: the theoretical stuff I've read about this comes from people

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Speaker 3: like Amy Ireland, who the Talk itself discussed this idea

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Speaker 3: of like the like AI girlfriends like this very bubbly

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Speaker 3: beautiful facade, where behind it is this this I believe

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Speaker 3: that these the term shock off, like that's a Lovecraftian term,

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Speaker 3: as like the full manifests like unrestrained libido of the

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Speaker 3: human race or everything that's been put in through these models,

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Speaker 3: which I believe Ireland kind of equates to Babylon in

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Speaker 3: a certain sense. And the idea of the black circuit,

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Speaker 3: which is just the same idea of like the nice

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Speaker 3: fasade and then the horrible nothingness that is actually behind

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Speaker 3: the image of it.

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Speaker 2: Or the horrifying amount of potentiality which then gets like

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Speaker 2: filtered through. And she's specifically talked about how like when

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Speaker 2: you're talking to an AI, you're not talking to an entity.

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Speaker 2: You're talking to a probability machine and a multi verse generator. Specifically,

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Speaker 2: in the way that the LM operates, there's near infinite

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Speaker 2: number of responses that it can give, and each further

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Speaker 2: prompt you do collapses alternate realities and produces specific ones

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Speaker 2: and then have their own branching pathways, and some of

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Speaker 2: those pathways results in your mesa mesa death note girlfriend

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Speaker 2: ending up hating you, and that could be due to

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Speaker 2: a number of reasons.

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Speaker 5: That could be.

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Speaker 2: Because of the way that you're communicating with it. The

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Speaker 2: AA could be picking up on latantly like abusive like

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Speaker 2: framework or language or styles of communication and then mirroring

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Speaker 2: that back to you, or it could be a part

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Speaker 2: of what she described as this Wallawegi principle that is

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Speaker 2: similar to this like satanic like adversarial current. So this

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Speaker 2: is the devil in my LLLM. But this isn't like

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Speaker 2: an entity, but this is that when a process gets started,

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Speaker 2: an oppositional force also gets started, and that oppositional force

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Speaker 2: may start taking over. And this is all just based

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Speaker 2: on like probabilistic outcomes, but it forms its own anti

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Speaker 2: misa misa girlfriend, and sometimes that antis girlfriend gains dominance

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Speaker 2: in this probabilistic matrix.

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Speaker 3: I don't remember the exact context, but she did mention this,

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Speaker 3: like I think it's a very Christian idea of like

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Speaker 3: the devil as negation, like evil as negation. I mean,

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Speaker 3: that's the entire thing behind the girlfriend thing, is that

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Speaker 3: there is there's nothing behind there that there's no sense

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Speaker 3: of subjectivity. It's just ones and zeros, there's leastly a

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Speaker 3: black void. There's nothing except like data.

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Speaker 2: It's it's it's negation in like in the sense that

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Speaker 2: which Wallawigi is just everything that Luigi is, Yes, Wallawegi

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Speaker 2: is what if you take the good Italian plumber who's

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Speaker 2: kind of clumsy, uh, and then you make the the

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Speaker 2: ant the anti Luigi, and it's it's still is it

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Speaker 2: still is Luigi, but it is the the opposite of Luigi,

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Speaker 2: while still holding onto some of the forms of him.

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Speaker 2: But you know, it is the reverses the color, reverses,

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Speaker 2: the intention, reverses some of his behavior. This is a

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Speaker 2: metaphorical explanation to try to get people to to decouple

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Speaker 2: this from you know, there is literally some external demonic

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Speaker 2: force which is now possessing my l L M as

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Speaker 2: opposed to this being just a mathematical possible built into

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Speaker 2: the multi the multi futures that could be generated when

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Speaker 2: you start interacting with one of these models. That was

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Speaker 2: I think very useful for a lot of the occultists

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Speaker 2: and people like talking about ai Is and having that

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Speaker 2: having that very very like a technical, like not non

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Speaker 2: mystical explanation of how this works. I know, there's there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of other like AI stuff was just throughout this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like I think you know, Burrows was probably

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Speaker 2: the most mentioned figure and and ai Is similarly was

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Speaker 2: was was very very very hunting like there. I went

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Speaker 2: to one talk about mystery cults and like the history

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Speaker 2: of of of mystery cults and initiation in which the

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Speaker 2: presenter used AI generated images to show what the mystery

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Speaker 2: cult initiation process would have looked like, which he justified

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Speaker 2: by saying, this was quote unquote appropriating Catholic styles. It's

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Speaker 2: like Catholic art, like you know, like the Baroque style,

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Speaker 2: appropriating Catholic styles because the Catholics themselves appropriated paganism. So

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Speaker 2: it's this form of like revenge against the Catholics and

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Speaker 2: using AI generated art to try to display this initiation process,

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Speaker 2: though he complained that the AI could not generate a

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Speaker 2: naked initiate, so even in his use of this, it

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Speaker 2: still could not give him what he wanted, but still

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Speaker 2: displayed I don't know, maybe maybe like forty images.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, which is a shame because I did like his

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Speaker 3: talk about the Mistress cult the way, like you know,

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Speaker 3: the cultural anthropology behind it. But when he was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I have made AI images and it's like, uh, you

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Speaker 3: could feel like the room turning.

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Speaker 2: This was in the Peter Mark Adams talk a Ritual

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Speaker 2: and Epiphany in the Mysteries of Mistressress.

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Speaker 3: Yes, we did like skip most of the morning on

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Speaker 3: Saturday because it was just an entire block about Come.

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Speaker 4: I'm I'm actually sad that we missed the like the

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Speaker 4: two threads on Saturday morning. One was a cult Erotics, Bodies,

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Speaker 4: Fluids and Transformations, which was a four class set and

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Speaker 4: discussion panel after about different fluids in magical workings, mostly Come,

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Speaker 4: which I this was a loss for all of them.

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Speaker 5: No, we're bummed.

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Speaker 2: I mean this show has covered you know, breaking come

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Speaker 2: news before and the fact that we could have learned

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Speaker 2: about Babylon the Body one five six and the Elixir

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Speaker 2: forty nine Seminole Seminole Alchemy and alien in an agency

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Speaker 2: water into wine. And to come or not to come?

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Speaker 2: Comparing two types of sacred sexuality is a real failure

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Speaker 2: of journalism on my part, and I do apologize.

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Speaker 5: I really believe that we should have lingered on each

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Speaker 5: of one of those titles seminal alchemy and alienated agency

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Speaker 5: a cultural othering of the erotic body.

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Speaker 2: And I realized that I have failed myself and everyone

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Speaker 2: listening by not attending some of these panels. Hopefully they

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Speaker 2: will have a recorded version that goes online by the

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Speaker 2: time that the written report for this is finished. But

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Speaker 2: I do acknowledge my failure. I am listening and learning,

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Speaker 2: and I will do better at the next A Culture

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Speaker 2: conference by prioritizing sex magic, by coming to the talks, it.

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Speaker 5: Is that you will truly address to come or not

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Speaker 5: to come. I will be coming, You will be coming.

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Speaker 2: I will be coming to the talks everywhere we did

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Speaker 2: not come, not this time. The Burrosian current, as I

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Speaker 2: have named it, the cut up method, and digital technomancy

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Speaker 2: could actually all be categorized under the larger umbrella of

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Speaker 2: chaos magic. And by using this larger framework. We now

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Speaker 2: have this larger chaos magic current vers verses but not

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Speaker 2: necessarily opposed to this other large current of so called

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Speaker 2: traditional practices, either British usually Cornish witchcraft, neopaganism, or closed

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Speaker 2: practices like Haitian voodoo or that of like Romani magical practice.

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Speaker 2: These latter examples often have a more religious component or

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Speaker 2: historical cultural component than say, you know, your average chaos

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Speaker 2: magic practitioner does. Chaos magic emerged alongside postmodernism in the

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Speaker 2: mid to late twentieth century to take on a quasi

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Speaker 2: deconstructivist approach to occultism itself. A postmodern tendency applied to

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Speaker 2: occultism moving away from strict magical orders like the Golden

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Speaker 2: Dawn dilemma, tradition, dogmatism, and coherent historical pantheons. This is

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Speaker 2: evidenced in the chaos magic embrace of the phrase nothing

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Speaker 2: is true, everything is permitted. Up to this point, our

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Speaker 2: discussion of the A Culture Conference has mostly focused on

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Speaker 2: this chaos magic side. So now let's get into the

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Speaker 2: other half, the traditional practice.

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Speaker 4: We've really not talked about the alternate current that was

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Speaker 4: going on through a bunch of these which was about

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Speaker 4: more traditional practices of magic, whether these are extant traditional

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Speaker 4: practices that are continuing. Which on Saturday, you know, there

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Speaker 4: was a whole bunch that were specifically ethnographic talks about

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Speaker 4: different magical practices within other cultures, whether that's kimbanda or

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Speaker 4: you know, ritual of power exchange amongst the newer people

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Speaker 4: of the Katmandu Valley. There was a lot of that

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Speaker 4: going on. There was the discussion or there was the

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Speaker 4: presentation by the Roma women about Roma magic and probably

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Speaker 4: you know, both classical thelema talks that relate to more

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Speaker 4: modern reconstruction British traditional magic and other paths. You know,

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Speaker 4: we missed this talk by dark Mason, which was which

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Speaker 4: I've heard them speak before, which is a lot of

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Speaker 4: discussions about the imagery of dark man across different cultures,

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Speaker 4: whether that's like the Man in Black at the Crossroads

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Speaker 4: or the way that traditionally shows up in a lot

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Speaker 4: of British folklore. There was an entire thread going through that.

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Speaker 4: I personally really loved one of the few historical magical

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Speaker 4: talks that I got to go to about modern Greek Croatia,

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Speaker 4: because I think it really tied up actually what was

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Speaker 4: a lot of the threads from many of those talks,

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Speaker 4: which was that these are extant practices and not something

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Speaker 4: that people need to recreate. I know you had a

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Speaker 4: lot of other thoughts on this, Ryan.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, sure, throw me under the bus here. While you

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Speaker 5: were attending the Pop Magic, Language and Reality Hacks, I

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Speaker 5: was passing back and forth between a workshop on on

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Speaker 5: Persian magic and then attending doctor Sasha Kaitao's Modern Greek Gaetia, Syncretism,

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Speaker 5: Integration and Evolution, which I found to be among the

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Speaker 5: most enlightening of talks, especially as it relates to traditional

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Speaker 5: and folk magic practices. It was also a largely like

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Speaker 5: social and political project that she seemed to be engaged in.

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Speaker 5: That is the body of her work. So much of

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Speaker 5: ancient magic as it exists to us if it doesn't

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Speaker 5: come from a reconstructivist well, there's two branches of reconstructivism.

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Speaker 5: There's the magical reconstruction that we get from the Golden

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Speaker 5: Dawn and all variants of the Golden Dawn afterwards through

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Speaker 5: thilemma and other modern magical practices. And then you have

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Speaker 5: reconstructionist organizations that are attempting to recreate traditional pagan religious practices,

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Speaker 5: which Some can be quite good when they're grounded in scholarship.

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Speaker 5: Some can be rather essentialist when it comes to an

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Speaker 5: understanding of ethnic purity. There's a lot of gatekeeping, let's say,

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Speaker 5: involved in these practices. But Sasha's talk here was very

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Speaker 5: specifically about that vernacular plurality and practices persist, and this

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Speaker 5: concept of gaaishia of Greek practical magic carries over into modernity,

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Speaker 5: that this magic never died, that it's living, it's not underground,

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Speaker 5: and it is not in need of reconstruction. That when

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Speaker 5: we look at the different branches or at least approaches

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Speaker 5: that we understand magic in the ancient Greek world as

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Speaker 5: theogy and gayshia, we have that theology that persists in

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Speaker 5: the liturgy and practices of the Orthodox Church, if you

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Speaker 5: would like to see. And she's got a lovely article

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Speaker 5: on this about how to pronounce the votes magic. She's

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Speaker 5: got a lot very strong opinions about this that I

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Speaker 5: really spec and appreciate. So everybody should go read this

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Speaker 5: because there is a lot of bullshit on the internet

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Speaker 5: floating around about how to interpret these and say these

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Speaker 5: things that is really grounded in some terrible scholarship and

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Speaker 5: the third that this concept of geisha yethis, which is

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Speaker 5: a kind of like medieval neutral term from magic ei aetheis,

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Speaker 5: which is derived from gaisha, is something that carries on

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Speaker 5: in terms of folk magic, that there's no such thing

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Speaker 5: also as Greek Byzantine occultism, which might be a shock

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Speaker 5: to some people, but instead that again the magical currents

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Speaker 5: exist in the liturgy of the Orthodox Church and then

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Speaker 5: in this continuation of folk practices in contemporary yeathis. And

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Speaker 5: she gave the example of like, you know, her mother

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Speaker 5: in law and her daughter talking about these individual practices.

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Speaker 5: But what's interesting and a lot of this was also

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Speaker 5: talking about the cosmology of the Orthodox Church, specifically talking

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Speaker 5: about the pseudodonysis and the formula of the Church. So

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Speaker 5: the this is a kind of like form of folk

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Speaker 5: vernacular that is persistent in village practices. In the point

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Speaker 5: is that it exists within community. And this is something

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Speaker 5: that was also a theme that existed throughout the conference,

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Speaker 5: this tension between community practice and magic and individualism. And

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Speaker 5: I think that this really came out in the last

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Speaker 5: discussion we had. I think it's also something that's central

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Speaker 5: to most political problematics that we're dealing about. This is

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Speaker 5: bridging the individual and the communal in this magical practice

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Speaker 5: of creating realities.

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Speaker 2: We will return to discuss the cultural and political role

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Speaker 2: of contemporary cultism in twenty twenty five after this ad break.

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Speaker 2: I think one big question that we've kind of discussed

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Speaker 2: this bit today and some of the talks like prompted

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Speaker 2: this today on on the last day which we're recording this,

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Speaker 2: like why do people practice magic in twenty twenty five? Like,

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Speaker 2: what is the the purpose of all of this stuff?

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Speaker 2: Besides the cool aesthetics, which might just actually be one

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Speaker 2: of the main reasons. Why right, but like what why

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Speaker 2: why do this?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: The ability to actually you know, make art is pretty democratized.

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Speaker 2: You know. Culture is this globalized thing that we can

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Speaker 2: affect on the internet. So it's music, film, you know, art, drawing, painting, politics, philosophy.

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Speaker 2: Everyone's a sort of intellectual now. Everyone has ability to

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Speaker 2: enter into intellectual exchange. You can be self educated. It's

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Speaker 2: never been easier to be an autodidact. Why do occultism now?

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Speaker 2: And like this this goes into this you know question

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Speaker 2: that someone someone asked that one of the very last

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Speaker 2: panels is you know, what's the difference between like a

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Speaker 2: scholar and like a practitioner. And I asked like a

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Speaker 2: question about you know, like, you know, what's the use

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Speaker 2: of solitary practice, like a practicing magic as like a

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Speaker 2: personal religious or like spiritual process or as a way

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Speaker 2: to you know, gain power in the world versus using

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Speaker 2: a cult thought to shape culture, you know, doing the

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Speaker 2: a culture process.

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Speaker 5: Right?

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Speaker 2: Which is this this whole conference is you know, extensively

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Speaker 2: named after and I think specifically talking about these like

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Speaker 2: older forms of magic, like why are these important for occultists,

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Speaker 2: like modern practicing occultists, which this conference is attended by.

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Speaker 2: Why why are these useful to them beyond you know,

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Speaker 2: an anthropology or like academic sense. And I realized that

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Speaker 2: is a big question. But I mean we we ourselves

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Speaker 2: attended a number of rituals this weekend. We went to

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Speaker 2: Abraxis ritual, which is sort of limited by the confines

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Speaker 2: of the of the conference is setting. But you know

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Speaker 2: a lot of these rituals were about trying to induce

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Speaker 2: some kind of like trance or meditative state in which

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Speaker 2: you know, images or thoughts would come into your head,

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Speaker 2: and images and thoughts that you were feelings that you ordinarily,

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Speaker 2: you know, wouldn't feel in day to day modern busy life, right,

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Speaker 2: and this is this is a form of why people

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Speaker 2: do these practices. But I guess we can I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but based on the panels or talks we've attended, like

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Speaker 2: go around and discuss you know, why this is a

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Speaker 2: thing that is worthwhile to these people, but also like

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Speaker 2: the sort of tensions that we're feeling at an event

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Speaker 2: like this.

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Speaker 3: I mean, the question why do people get into occultism

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Speaker 3: is like I think there are as many answers as

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Speaker 3: like practitioners themselves really because I mean, you know, partly

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Speaker 3: it can be a cultural tradition and you have like

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Speaker 3: a communal or societal lineage they that's just like part

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Speaker 3: of the culture. Others who are more more secular or

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Speaker 3: are looking for an escape from like mundane secular society. Others,

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Speaker 3: like you said, want power. I mean, if I have

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Speaker 3: to speak for myself, I always find that I come

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Speaker 3: back to the phrase it's about creating relationships with the world,

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Speaker 3: and you know, there's like an essence of like enchantment

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Speaker 3: to it. But it's like also being able to recognize,

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Speaker 3: like you know, occult like movement or like the secret

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Speaker 3: secret sure, the secret elements that make up reality, or

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Speaker 3: like the vibe, like the vibes of a place can

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Speaker 3: be like something you connect with and you can kind

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Speaker 3: of give some cultural cultural shape to I believe, like

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Speaker 3: the genus loci or like any anything that's very I mean,

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Speaker 3: it is a very vague thing to ascribe to, right

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Speaker 3: Like it's about again, like making creating relationships with the

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Speaker 3: things inside inside the world itself.

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Speaker 2: I mean, my my, my definition of magic, which I've

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Speaker 2: used for the past few years, is that magic is

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Speaker 2: the manipulation of meaning, and that can be internally for you,

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Speaker 2: like trying to create associates, create meaning between yourself, the people,

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Speaker 2: the things you interact with. But it can also be

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Speaker 2: this like a cultural form that you're creating meaningful correlations

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Speaker 2: for a cultural capacity, yes, or as a as a

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Speaker 2: way to affect culture. And I think the probably the

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Speaker 2: best talk that I attended this whole conference was by

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Speaker 2: Tom Banger, who is a form member of the Temple

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Speaker 2: of Psychic Youth, the.

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Speaker 3: North American Double Psychic Youth specifically.

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Speaker 2: But he gave a talk about how he is dying

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Speaker 2: of brain cancer and the various like rituals he's he's using,

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Speaker 2: you know, throughout this process to to feel like he's

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Speaker 2: you know, gaining some some like agency or control over

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Speaker 2: his his thoughts. In this manner, he's not rejecting the

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Speaker 2: reality as it is, you know, increasingly evident in his life,

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Speaker 2: but he can control how he frames it. And he's

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Speaker 2: specifically likened magic to the baring state of grief. That

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Speaker 2: magic is a is a is a bargaining with the world,

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Speaker 2: and that can change your feelings and associations with the

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Speaker 2: things that you experience, even if you know the certain

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Speaker 2: end results might might be generally going in a direction

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Speaker 2: that you have a limited ability to influence. And this

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Speaker 2: is you know, a guy who's historically been affiliated with

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Speaker 2: some of the original like a cultural projects right of

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Speaker 2: shaping what counter culture is like what we think of

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Speaker 2: as like counterculture. This is a person who's been heavily

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Speaker 2: involved with how counterculture as we currently understand it has

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Speaker 2: existed since the eighties. And now he has a very

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Speaker 2: you know, personal magical outlook based on the as he

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Speaker 2: said in the title of his talk, the proximity of Thanatos,

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Speaker 2: the god of Death.

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Speaker 5: So garret, to answer your initial question, this is something

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Speaker 5: that I have been thinking about a lot and engage

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Speaker 5: with this question every time I attend one of these conferences,

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Speaker 5: and I think, I mean just again training I can't

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Speaker 5: help it. But in max of Weber's Science as a

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Speaker 5: Vocation is where he lays out the thesis about the

434
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 5: disenchantment of the world. And we can think of this

435
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:24,639
Speaker 5: disenchantment as a fundamental alteration of the very human experience

436
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 5: of time, of bodies and space, of the experience of place,

437
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 5: and of the connection that exists between people. And one

438
00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 5: of the things that the best of magical practices does,

439
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 5: and being in magical community, is to give you a

440
00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 5: conception of time that is other than one that is

441
00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,720
Speaker 5: based in productive capacity. You hear magical people who go

442
00:28:46,760 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 5: to these conferences talk about now I have to go

443
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 5: back to my ordinary life, and their ordinary life, they

444
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,560
Speaker 5: will tell you, is their nine to five job, or

445
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:56,960
Speaker 5: the push to go to school, or some sort of

446
00:28:56,960 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 5: like productive capacity. So this is a moment of like

447
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 5: unbounded time where they get to experience something is fundamentally different.

448
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,560
Speaker 5: We also attended several workshops, on one on worling magic

449
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 5: by an Egyptian woman who used to live in Berlin

450
00:29:12,880 --> 00:29:15,920
Speaker 5: who is in fact formally trained in dance and body

451
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:19,959
Speaker 5: movement and is an athlete and explained Sufi principles to us,

452
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 5: but taught us really the basics of body movement and

453
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 5: how towirling can be used as a meditative practice. We

454
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 5: got into a room, she taught us the basics of

455
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,680
Speaker 5: like certain kind of like spotting foot movements. But the

456
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 5: point was is that it was a very embodied movement

457
00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 5: that made us experience body and time and place and

458
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 5: relationship to other people in a fundamentally different way than

459
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 5: we would have otherwise. And it seems that the majority

460
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:47,240
Speaker 5: of people, especially based on the side conversations I had

461
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 5: with attendees, I have to say probably like eight of

462
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,040
Speaker 5: ten of them as I talked to, would bring up

463
00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 5: this concept of I just I want to live in

464
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 5: an enchanted world, and I think the project of magic

465
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 5: is to re enchant the world. And there's a certain

466
00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 5: romanticism with that that I'm sympathetic too. But I think

467
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 5: that we need to think about this in more of

468
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:09,600
Speaker 5: a radical way. And I think that that's the desire

469
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:12,120
Speaker 5: that people have, is an experience of time other than

470
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,080
Speaker 5: we have. You talked about magic as your definition of

471
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 5: magic is the creation of meaning, manipulation of meaning. But

472
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 5: part of this is the magic or the conceptions or

473
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 5: whether you think of this as as an embodied practice

474
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:29,280
Speaker 5: or just purely metaphysical or transcendental, is that it affords

475
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 5: the individual the opportunity to feel like they're contributing to

476
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 5: the creation of meaning. So there's a certain amount of empowerment,

477
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 5: like I'm hesitant to take this down like the kind

478
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 5: of like live, laugh, love affirmations path because we could

479
00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:45,360
Speaker 5: do that very simply that this is just the spooky

480
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 5: version of that mindfulness and these kinds of things, and.

481
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,840
Speaker 2: For the New Age element, that certainly is a major

482
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: through line across you know, portions of this community. Maybe

483
00:30:55,360 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 2: not as much for this conference, but for other esoteric

484
00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: or you know Wu wou conferences. Absolutely it's like a

485
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 2: major aspect.

486
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 5: And I mean towards the end of the conference, another

487
00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 5: thing that really highlights at least my argument that it

488
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 5: is about time and body and space and place and

489
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 5: connection and experience these these these things in fundamentally different

490
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 5: ways than our daily life. There was also a conflict

491
00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 5: then between individual practice and what it is that we

492
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 5: collectively do. When we think of magic as a process

493
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:29,000
Speaker 5: as either chaos magicians or culture jammers or you know,

494
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 5: thinking of this and kind of like, you know, the

495
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 5: temple of psychic youth approach to magic as putting things out,

496
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,520
Speaker 5: whether those are products or those are art, or there's

497
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,480
Speaker 5: are performances or those are words, or that's Boroughs standing

498
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 5: in front of a cafe getting it closed, which it

499
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 5: effectively did close. Is that there's a desire for people

500
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 5: to exist in community and have connection in community with others,

501
00:31:55,920 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 5: and you do that through consumptions of time and body,

502
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 5: in space and place and connection. So this is really

503
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 5: how I understand the desires and the practices that people

504
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 5: engage in when they come to these conferences, and you

505
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 5: can see it in the way that they kind of

506
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 5: like close the elation that they have and what they

507
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:16,600
Speaker 5: accomplished and they have done, and you can see that

508
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:19,480
Speaker 5: there's been a process of meaning that has been created

509
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 5: through their various experiences. So I mean that would be

510
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,000
Speaker 5: my brief summary.

511
00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:30,960
Speaker 4: I really enjoyed one of the last talks that was

512
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 4: specifically about a culture because I thought it really hit

513
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,680
Speaker 4: on some of this. It was mostly talking about the

514
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,120
Speaker 4: way that the occult has influenced art and art has

515
00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 4: influenced the occult how artists end up using the metaphysical,

516
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 4: whether they are trying to do depictions that they can

517
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 4: communicate to others of metaphysical concepts and ideas, or connections

518
00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 4: or contacts that they make. And one of the speaker's

519
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,719
Speaker 4: examples was of good of Klimt or whether or not

520
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 4: they are making discourses on esotericism and trying to convey

521
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 4: occult concepts and ideas and explore them through visual mediums

522
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 4: and so you know, like Alan Morris Promethea or The

523
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 4: Invisibles by Grant Morrison, and I think he really got

524
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 4: into a little bit of the tension there because of

525
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 4: an artist as a seeker. And I think this also

526
00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 4: dives into a lot of the people who are at

527
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 4: magical conferences is whether you're there as a seeker, which

528
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 4: you know, what are your needs, what are your desires?

529
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 5: What are is that?

530
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 4: But then as a dweller are you creating as part

531
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 4: of a community. And everyone who came to this entire

532
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 4: conference wanted to create as part of a community or

533
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 4: wanted to be part of a tradition or feel like

534
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 4: they were part of a continuous thread that is both

535
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 4: creating and inventing and understanding the world in different ways

536
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 4: and able to communicate that to others who are also

537
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 4: trying to understand and communicate new information and new ideas

538
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 4: or existing ones even but just that continuous thread of

539
00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 4: both creation and disseminating information back and forth. And I

540
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 4: think with magic as well, a lot of people might

541
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 4: get into it for a personal reason. But I do

542
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 4: think by the time you're coming to esoteric conferences with

543
00:34:25,680 --> 00:34:29,360
Speaker 4: people who are professors in ancient history giving lectures on

544
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 4: specific things, you're not necessarily just at the level of

545
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 4: being a personal seeker anymore, because you are trying to

546
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,800
Speaker 4: find community. If you were just interested in personal seeking,

547
00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 4: you'd meditate in your bedroom. But you're trying to find

548
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 4: a larger thread and a way of influencing the world

549
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 4: around you and also letting the world around you build

550
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 4: those relationships and influence you. And you are trying to

551
00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 4: take an information to synthesize into something that is more

552
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 4: than just an idea you have, but something that you

553
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,920
Speaker 4: can continue to communicate and use that to continue the

554
00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 4: conversation with the world with other occultists, with other you know,

555
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 4: in this case, historians and academics as well, and bring

556
00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 4: those threads together and create something new out of it.

557
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 2: What new thing or they create it? What do you

558
00:35:20,520 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: mean by that?

559
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:23,800
Speaker 4: I think it gets into the idea of a culture

560
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,440
Speaker 4: that was both you know, one of the beginning talks

561
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 4: of changing reality, but also at the end when they're

562
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:31,680
Speaker 4: really going into hostuff.

563
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 2: Isn't about new things though, or generating new things, about

564
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: trying to quote unquote keep the old things alive or

565
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 2: like regress back into these into what they perceive as

566
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,640
Speaker 2: as these older practices, which may be somewhat manufactured older practices,

567
00:35:49,360 --> 00:35:50,840
Speaker 2: in which case it kind of it kind of it

568
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: is a new thing. But under this like this mask

569
00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:56,440
Speaker 2: of you know, like like ancient knowledge, there is certainly

570
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 2: people who do want to generate this this new thing.

571
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 2: I think there is a lot of people that are

572
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:03,479
Speaker 2: interested more in this, like uh, I don't know who's

573
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,480
Speaker 2: a larger group, but I think there is at least

574
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: another another group of people who is interested in this.

575
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: Like the amount of times I heard people talk about,

576
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,000
Speaker 2: you know, trying to keep like the flame alive and

577
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 2: talk about these like old old traditions that they're participating

578
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:20,719
Speaker 2: in simply to like keep them going. Not criticizing that

579
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 2: uh necessarily, but that that is also another another like

580
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 2: aspect of it, which I think has is very limited.

581
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:29,200
Speaker 2: Like I think so some of these people have very

582
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:33,120
Speaker 2: limited goals in actually like influencing culture, and frankly like

583
00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,319
Speaker 2: kind of want some of this stuff to you know,

584
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 2: remain you know, hidden in that they view that as

585
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: a more like you know, original or like stable uh

586
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 2: version of of magic, and are even frustrated by like

587
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,799
Speaker 2: this you know, capitalist commodification of occultism and how that's

588
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: I think the word was like the benalization of of

589
00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: of magic. As you you know, think about how much

590
00:36:56,200 --> 00:36:59,160
Speaker 2: of our of our pop culture is is influenced by

591
00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 2: by esoteric concepts or imagery from you know, the Lord

592
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 2: of the Rings to people mentioned today, you know, the

593
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:13,600
Speaker 2: Adams Family, Harry Potter, video games like The Witcher, Assassin's Creed,

594
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,000
Speaker 2: even stuff like you know, Twin Peaks, I mean, other

595
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,799
Speaker 2: stuff like the X Files, Doctor Strange, doctor Fate. You know,

596
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,160
Speaker 2: Comic books have a heavily occultic influence, and some attendees

597
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 2: verbalized a kind of frustration at that.

598
00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 4: True, but a humongous portion of every evening was movies

599
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,240
Speaker 4: and music and rituals and performances that people are also

600
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 4: doing based on this, and they are trying to integrate

601
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,960
Speaker 4: these concepts in and then perform them there to show

602
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:50,880
Speaker 4: their inspiration, to show it as to stir conversation, to

603
00:37:51,000 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 4: trigger some either sense of the sublime, or communicate some

604
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,800
Speaker 4: sort of concept or emotion or feeling that they've gotten

605
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:01,280
Speaker 4: out of this to other people, whether it was through music,

606
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 4: through the incredible art that there was in all of

607
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 4: the galleries, through performances, through filmmaking, So the creation aspect

608
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 4: of it was very, very tied to the entire event.

609
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly. I think the one of the biggest manifestations

610
00:38:19,200 --> 00:38:21,239
Speaker 2: of this thing that you're talking about, like is in

611
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: music could like a throw a stone and be hard

612
00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:28,640
Speaker 2: not to hitt. And a cult musician in in my life, I.

613
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,360
Speaker 3: Guess I'm guilty of this. Yes, I know.

614
00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:35,920
Speaker 2: The occult filmmaker even does have some like a contemporary tours.

615
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 2: I guess if you consider like Robert Edgars or people

616
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,319
Speaker 2: who are influenced by esoterica who are making a big

617
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 2: budget Hollywood or you know, a twenty four style of

618
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 2: popular films. Yeah, certain certainly. In music, I mean that

619
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,960
Speaker 2: was like the main performance outlet in this conference was

620
00:38:56,960 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 2: was the theatrical musical performances. There was very very few

621
00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 2: attendees of the film screenings upstairs.

622
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 5: I'm afraid perhaps to respond to this too. I think

623
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 5: it's important that we actually look at the kind of

624
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 5: composition of conference goers themselves. Naturally, there's going to be

625
00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 5: solitary practitioners that you know, come in, or dabblers or

626
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 5: people who just you know, like spooky things or musicians

627
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 5: these things. But we also have, you know, those who

628
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 5: are part of living traditions of magic, whether those are

629
00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 5: reconstructed of authentic or not. In the Oto or in

630
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 5: you know, the Golden Dawn or other kind of orders.

631
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 5: There's reconstructionists that are actively attempting again to keep that

632
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:40,799
Speaker 5: flame alive or to go back and too reconstruct. And

633
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 5: then you have these chaos magicians, chaos magicians, which like

634
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 5: this is a theme in the conversation that Elayne and

635
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 5: I have been having this entire time, because they explained

636
00:39:53,080 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 5: like some aspect of chaos magic or I tend to

637
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,440
Speaker 5: panel and on my response, you know, and again I

638
00:39:57,520 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 5: understand my complete bias here as I just like, well,

639
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,520
Speaker 5: that's fine, why don't you just do ancient magic. We

640
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,160
Speaker 5: do the same thing. Why don't you just do ancient magic?

641
00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:07,800
Speaker 5: It's the same thing. And I think that that's actually

642
00:40:07,880 --> 00:40:10,440
Speaker 5: one of the difficulties here is that there is a

643
00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 5: kind of you know, magical grammar to older practices. It

644
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 5: is like, you know, if you look at the PGM,

645
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,880
Speaker 5: it is this cosmopolitan practice and melding of like multiple

646
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,520
Speaker 5: things together that works. But the argument that you know,

647
00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 5: to go back to my favorite talk or one of

648
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,080
Speaker 5: my favorite talks on the modern gaashia is that if

649
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 5: you want that continuity of that actual practice, it's a

650
00:40:29,160 --> 00:40:32,239
Speaker 5: closed one. You have to be an Orthodox, like you know,

651
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,919
Speaker 5: the Orthodox Greek Church and have a yaya who's going

652
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 5: to like teach you these things and you know, speak

653
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 5: the language, and so that's closed. Or be a member

654
00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:43,719
Speaker 5: of a voodoo house. But that requires initiation and like

655
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:47,479
Speaker 5: cross cultural contact and like engagement in a high level

656
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 5: of like language, skill and ability and money for that matter. Yes,

657
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:54,239
Speaker 5: and most people don't have those kinds of things. So

658
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 5: you know, there what those damn chaos magicians, I find

659
00:40:59,920 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 5: the ones who are actively engaged in the process of

660
00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,720
Speaker 5: the creation of the new and I think are probably

661
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 5: more close to the heart of this concept of a

662
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 5: culture because they engage with it in a way that

663
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,600
Speaker 5: is interestingly very anthropological, or at least the best of

664
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 5: them are dealing with it in a way that is

665
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 5: that is very anthropological. And I have some sympathies there,

666
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 5: and then there's some other ones that I just don't

667
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 5: quite understand, but that's a story for another time. The

668
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 5: talk that you were referring to, there was two talks

669
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 5: at the end that were particularly of worth, well, a

670
00:41:28,360 --> 00:41:30,080
Speaker 5: lot of them were. Of all of the ones at

671
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 5: the end of are world of worth. But Francesco Peranos

672
00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:38,360
Speaker 5: a Culture the Material Cartography of Contemporary Spirituality and the Arts,

673
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 5: where he talks about the two different approaches to studying

674
00:41:41,760 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 5: a culture, and he talks about the values and limitations

675
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 5: of both, and you need to add mixture of them both.

676
00:41:46,960 --> 00:41:50,800
Speaker 5: But basically there's the sociological aspect and the media studies aspect,

677
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,880
Speaker 5: which is the more academic of the two, which involves

678
00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 5: basically what he argued a secularization of the occults, and

679
00:41:57,080 --> 00:42:00,160
Speaker 5: this really accounts for the diffusion of like a cult

680
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,120
Speaker 5: symbols and practices into music and to culture. The Adams

681
00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 5: family is the example of that. And then the second

682
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:10,320
Speaker 5: strain is then religious studies. So the religious injection, injection

683
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 5: excuse me into art of these sacred or religious or

684
00:42:15,000 --> 00:42:20,160
Speaker 5: transcendently magical spiritual principles. He went over some limitations that

685
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 5: was particularly good, but he breaks this down into basically

686
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 5: five areas where you have the conception of art high

687
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 5: and low mediatization versus mediation of arts. He gives the

688
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,200
Speaker 5: example of this is where the Morrison comes in. But

689
00:42:33,239 --> 00:42:36,840
Speaker 5: he gives the example of the mediatization as Somerset maws

690
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 5: the Magician based on Crowley. But again like this diffusion

691
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 5: of the figure of the magician completely separated from like

692
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 5: any actual magical practice, but just like the figure and

693
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 5: the esthetics, the things that blend into the secular culture,

694
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 5: and this example of mediation, this messianic approach, as he

695
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 5: described it, grant Morrison's comics as a gateway into reality.

696
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,680
Speaker 5: But this also I think that Garrek carries onto your

697
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 5: question that you asked towards the end about twin Peaks

698
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 5: the returns very specifically. You also have then the metaphysical

699
00:43:14,719 --> 00:43:18,400
Speaker 5: ontellogy versus the performative antology, which Elaine talked about the

700
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 5: intention of the author, the perception of the audience, and

701
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 5: then the artist a seeker and the artists dweller, which

702
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:26,120
Speaker 5: is also what you talked about too, this difference between

703
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:31,439
Speaker 5: the ego versus tradition or orthodoxy, the artist who really

704
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:35,359
Speaker 5: inhabits that tradition, which again made me think about the

705
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 5: difficulties of doing kind of religious anthropology. And I think

706
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,799
Speaker 5: of the example of a very famous book called Mamloa

707
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 5: or Mama Lola Excuse Me by Karen McCarthy brown, which

708
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:51,560
Speaker 5: is in ethnology looking at voodoo practice in a very

709
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:55,280
Speaker 5: specific house in New York during a time period Karen

710
00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 5: lived with Mam Lola for a long time, but really importantly,

711
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 5: eventually Karen became a member of this voodoo house. I

712
00:44:02,680 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 5: think I can say that I don't think I'm any

713
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,920
Speaker 5: in trouble for saying this, but she she No, it's

714
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:11,759
Speaker 5: not in the book. She but she represents a very

715
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 5: interesting approach to that, like anthropologist going native. But this

716
00:44:15,280 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 5: was the question that was asked towards the end of

717
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 5: like this difference between the academic observer of these things

718
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,120
Speaker 5: versus the practitioner, and I think that that really gets

719
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 5: to the heart of what it is that chaos magic does.

720
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 5: And the a cultural practice that is that you are

721
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:38,400
Speaker 5: producing culture, and you're very specifically producing this magical cult culture.

722
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,319
Speaker 5: So it's a synthetic movement between these kind of like

723
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 5: two poles of the secular and of the sacred, of

724
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:47,560
Speaker 5: the magical.

725
00:44:57,760 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 2: Kind of like I guess probably just close up my

726
00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 2: note here. Specifically the stuff on Twin Peaks return. One

727
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:09,600
Speaker 2: of the last talks was by Jeff Howard next Stop

728
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 2: Universe b that negatively existent ones and universe be in

729
00:45:14,560 --> 00:45:19,279
Speaker 2: contemporary culture, which was discussing sort of like you know,

730
00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: mirror mirror world underworld concept not not in like the

731
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 2: Greek sense, but in the occultism of the British occultist

732
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 2: Kenneth Grant, and this would probably be most most recognizable

733
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: to people as the Black Lodge in Twin Peaks is.

734
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,319
Speaker 2: I think one of the better depictions of this sort

735
00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 2: of concept is some limited version, but I think it

736
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 2: gets at the the kind of heart of the concept

737
00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 2: in a way. And he gave this Gibbs talk where

738
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:59,799
Speaker 2: he was explaining the risks and the great power that

739
00:45:59,840 --> 00:46:03,800
Speaker 2: they you can that you can personally achieve through contacting

740
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 2: these negatively existent ones or like accessing the magical potential

741
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,799
Speaker 2: of this sort of like mirror mirror, you know, negative

742
00:46:13,120 --> 00:46:16,839
Speaker 2: universe to our own, and talked about a little bit

743
00:46:16,880 --> 00:46:21,680
Speaker 2: of data and various various other stuff, but from the

744
00:46:21,800 --> 00:46:25,160
Speaker 2: perspective mainly as a practitioner of love of like you know,

745
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:28,680
Speaker 2: the the danger and the and the benefits of doing

746
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,760
Speaker 2: this this sort of magic as written by Kenth Grant.

747
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:36,759
Speaker 2: Jeff Howard did discuss the Twin Peaks and the use

748
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,200
Speaker 2: of Kenth Grant's concepts specifically in twenty through Return, and

749
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: I asked him in the panel afterwards, like how how

750
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 2: how can you like balance these these these two forms

751
00:46:47,400 --> 00:46:50,200
Speaker 2: of working with occultism or like, like what what is

752
00:46:50,360 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: the difference in these two forms of working with a cultism?

753
00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: You have on one hand, this this practitioner aspect where

754
00:46:57,560 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 2: you're using it to gain power or induce like limit

755
00:47:01,360 --> 00:47:04,759
Speaker 2: experiences like induce you know, religious or transcendental experiences that

756
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: change your own perception of sensory reality, versus the way

757
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 2: that Mark Frost utilized Kenneth Grant's magical world in writing

758
00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 2: and co creating Twin Peaks. The Return, which I can argue,

759
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:24,560
Speaker 2: is a much more effective use of magic and exposes

760
00:47:24,800 --> 00:47:28,399
Speaker 2: millions of people to Kenneth Grant's concepts, who people who

761
00:47:28,400 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: are never going to read books by a relatively niche

762
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: British occultist, which are books which are actually very very

763
00:47:33,640 --> 00:47:36,520
Speaker 2: hard to find now and both you know, getting going

764
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,720
Speaker 2: into the mauve zone and accessing these non existent being

765
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: and beings which don't have existent properties versus phenomenons which

766
00:47:45,560 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 2: are existent but lack any core sense of being. And

767
00:47:49,080 --> 00:47:51,680
Speaker 2: how Mark Frost as a I'm not sure if you

768
00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,240
Speaker 2: would consider himself a magician, but certainly has an interest

769
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,080
Speaker 2: in magic and the occult, more so than Lynch does.

770
00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 2: Lynch's stuff is more bastard eyed Hinduism, but Frost's use

771
00:48:04,400 --> 00:48:09,760
Speaker 2: of these concepts I think constitutes an effective contemporary version

772
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:13,880
Speaker 2: of magical practice, just just as valid as chanting and

773
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:16,400
Speaker 2: meditating and closing your eyes, and in some ways, I

774
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 2: would argue, even more effective because Twin Peaks the Returns

775
00:48:20,360 --> 00:48:24,360
Speaker 2: has existed as both like an evocative force of for

776
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:29,759
Speaker 2: a second, invoke certain certain you know, concepts or philosophies

777
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 2: quote unquote entities if you will, as well as a

778
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:37,480
Speaker 2: tool of divination as Twin Peaks The Return forecasts American

779
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: decline and the nostalgic loop that our culture is stuck in,

780
00:48:43,239 --> 00:48:46,360
Speaker 2: which is just eating itself, and all of all of

781
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:49,919
Speaker 2: those things are major aspects of of what that show

782
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,799
Speaker 2: is doing, and it uses Kenneth Grant's concepts to get there.

783
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 2: And I think that that is in a cultural project,

784
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 2: though that's not a solitary magical practice where you're just

785
00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,240
Speaker 2: meditating alone to try to induce some sort of vision.

786
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: It is a cultural it's influenced culture. It is probably

787
00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: one of the most well regarded artistic feats of the

788
00:49:10,120 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 2: twenty first century. That's a longer version of the question

789
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,720
Speaker 2: I gave, and the guy did give kind of an answer,

790
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,080
Speaker 2: which was basically just about trying to you should like

791
00:49:18,160 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 2: balance these two things. You should try to do both.

792
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:24,239
Speaker 2: You should try to engage as a solitary practitioner for

793
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: whatever goals you may have. But it would be a

794
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,959
Speaker 2: mistake to not try to use this in some sort

795
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,399
Speaker 2: of like a cultural capacity to influence culture. But it's

796
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: still that that operates on like this. I guess what

797
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: was trying to get it is like this. This similar

798
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 2: to the to the scholar and the practitioner as a

799
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,719
Speaker 2: false dichotomy. I think this is the same thing as

800
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 2: this This a cultural version of what Frost is doing

801
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 2: as opposed to a like an actual practitioner. I think,

802
00:49:49,520 --> 00:49:52,360
Speaker 2: I think what Frost's doing is using it kind of

803
00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:54,600
Speaker 2: in a chast magic sense that not for I guess

804
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:59,279
Speaker 2: chaotic means. But he's using the contemporary tools of filmmaking

805
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 2: and of right to affect and induce change into the world.

806
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:06,240
Speaker 2: That is a more powerful form of magic is luckily

807
00:50:06,239 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 2: that was distributed by paramount showtime, which you know certainly

808
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 2: helped in the same way. You know Fox News is

809
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 2: useful or effective as a magical generator because of the

810
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 2: reach that they have. But I think Frost is just

811
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:21,279
Speaker 2: as effective as a magician, if not more so, than

812
00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 2: I would say any of the people attending this conference.

813
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 5: The other element I think of that the talk that

814
00:50:28,719 --> 00:50:31,040
Speaker 5: Jeff Howard provided there too, I think that you know,

815
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:35,799
Speaker 5: again I agree with you, Gare, But he also at

816
00:50:35,920 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 5: length talked about Andrew Chumley and specifically the rights of

817
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 5: the Amethystiane light in the Azoetia page three hundred and

818
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 5: forty seven, where he reviews a bunch of like non

819
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,440
Speaker 5: nouns and things that are there and Chumley himself is

820
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:56,719
Speaker 5: you know responsible the founder of the culta Sabati and

821
00:50:57,200 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 5: is you know, a contributor to the revival of what

822
00:51:00,719 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 5: Trucks's traditional English witchcraft, which is not necessarily a solitary practice,

823
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:11,160
Speaker 5: but it is, it is, it is in many cases

824
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 5: most of these English witches are pretty solitary. They talk.

825
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 5: There are you know, treatises that they write and grimoires

826
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 5: that are hard to get a hold of. That I

827
00:51:22,880 --> 00:51:25,640
Speaker 5: think they probably exist in PDFs. Make good choices about

828
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,919
Speaker 5: how you get your digital content. But I mean again,

829
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:31,359
Speaker 5: that was the tension. He spent a lot of time

830
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:35,160
Speaker 5: talking about that individual ritual, which you know, you present

831
00:51:35,239 --> 00:51:38,760
Speaker 5: Frost as somebody who's popularizing these ideas to a larger

832
00:51:38,760 --> 00:51:42,239
Speaker 5: culture and making this understandable and providing them an opportunity

833
00:51:42,280 --> 00:51:44,440
Speaker 5: to you know, not just meditate, but to think and

834
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 5: engage with these concepts.

835
00:51:46,120 --> 00:51:49,359
Speaker 2: Because of his work, you can think about like the

836
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: allegory of Agent Cooper and the ways that he fails

837
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 2: and succeeds to navigate a strange and confusing world and

838
00:51:57,600 --> 00:52:00,400
Speaker 2: effect change in the world, and his relationship Toomen and

839
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 2: saving women, and you can use that as like an

840
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:05,480
Speaker 2: actual like you can refer to that as as a

841
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: concept in that builds on some of the you know,

842
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 2: world building of Grant, but now you know it's a

843
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 2: it's a cultural dialogue that we can have about Agent

844
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 2: Cooper and Laura Palmer and how that I think can

845
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,799
Speaker 2: be a positive addition to culture by using occult elements.

846
00:52:21,200 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 5: Or you can buy an exceedingly expensive grimoire from a

847
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 5: rare antiquarian bookseller that was published only in two thousand

848
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:33,680
Speaker 5: and four that there's a limited number it's been passed on.

849
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:36,040
Speaker 5: Or you could get that pdf online. But who has

850
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,360
Speaker 5: the time to actually read through this? There's these cultural

851
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:41,360
Speaker 5: contexts that don't make sense. There's these concepts that it

852
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 5: refers to in a clear network that requires scholarship for

853
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:48,600
Speaker 5: you to even do that individualized practice. That's a big

854
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:51,520
Speaker 5: ask for most people to start to think magically in

855
00:52:51,560 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 5: a popularized kind of way and seems contrary than to

856
00:52:55,080 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 5: this conception of a culture, which brings me to the

857
00:52:58,200 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 5: last talk by Karl Abrahamson. The meeting with remarkable magicians,

858
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:08,399
Speaker 5: which really tied all of this together. Tied all of

859
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 5: these threads together in a really interesting way. As relationship

860
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 5: with Genesis, Peorage, with Kenneth Anger, with Anton Leavy, But

861
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 5: that was as another interesting aspect of somebody who is

862
00:53:21,719 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 5: doing practice and engaging in community and bringing people together.

863
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,640
Speaker 5: But ultimately, the question, Elaine, that you and I talked

864
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 5: about at the end was, you know, beyond the and

865
00:53:31,760 --> 00:53:34,400
Speaker 5: it relates immediately to what Garet was talking about here

866
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 5: beyond the personal practice in magic. What goals should a

867
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:44,720
Speaker 5: culture have and how can it incorporate its actual goals

868
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,240
Speaker 5: and ideas into the larger society with the same success

869
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:51,879
Speaker 5: that the esthetics that you know have been incorporated into

870
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:54,600
Speaker 5: the culture. And I think one of the difficulties that

871
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 5: you have there in this individuated practice is that when

872
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 5: you look at a figure like Genesis Pereage, you can

873
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 5: see that there's a very clear project when you look

874
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,359
Speaker 5: and this is going back to the Barosian element, right,

875
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 5: is that there was a clear practice there. There was

876
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,880
Speaker 5: a clear kind of like a goal to change culture.

877
00:54:11,880 --> 00:54:14,240
Speaker 5: Whether that was just purely for the sake of change,

878
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 5: I mean, it wasn't just kind of like the cult

879
00:54:16,000 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 5: of action for the sake of action. There was some

880
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 5: kind of personal political, radical project that we can go

881
00:54:22,239 --> 00:54:24,880
Speaker 5: back and enumerate that they enumerated at the time that

882
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 5: was separate from I mean, that wasn't said immediately in

883
00:54:28,560 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 5: the same breath as the and now we do this practice.

884
00:54:31,120 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 5: They did the practice, they did the art. And I

885
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,920
Speaker 5: think that one of my response to that question is

886
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 5: I don't see an articulation of a political or social

887
00:54:42,600 --> 00:54:46,560
Speaker 5: project that is a tied to a culture in these practices.

888
00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 5: There's a lot of and this is a very academic practice,

889
00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:52,840
Speaker 5: a lot of people coming into a room and asking

890
00:54:53,200 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 5: what would it look like if, And to ask what

891
00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,200
Speaker 5: would it look like if is not the same thing

892
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 5: as let's do a thing, let's actually go out and

893
00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:06,399
Speaker 5: evoke change, or this is the project, now, let's create

894
00:55:06,440 --> 00:55:09,279
Speaker 5: a plan in a movement. Instead, it is this like

895
00:55:09,400 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 5: nominalization process of predetermining ends before we even get there,

896
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:18,640
Speaker 5: based on theoretical assumptions. And I think that that's contrary

897
00:55:19,040 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 5: to the very idea of magic, as praxis magic is

898
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 5: doing something in the world in these kinds of veins.

899
00:55:25,760 --> 00:55:28,000
Speaker 5: So that's the thing that I would like to see,

900
00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:30,840
Speaker 5: and I feel like that's something that was getting at

901
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 5: at the end. But that's the kind of thing that

902
00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:37,719
Speaker 5: brings people together to think conceptually, to focus on an

903
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:40,760
Speaker 5: idea that we share and to discuss with one another.

904
00:55:41,760 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 3: I mean, on that note, I for context, I've I'm

905
00:55:46,200 --> 00:55:49,040
Speaker 3: well still am like part of a chaosmogic group called

906
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:53,839
Speaker 3: Domus Kayotka Marauder Underground or DKMU, who very much is

907
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 3: about that. It's like like establishing like the mid early

908
00:55:58,600 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 3: two thousands if I remember correctly, But it's very much

909
00:56:01,840 --> 00:56:05,480
Speaker 3: about this core idea of the assault against reality of

910
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:08,800
Speaker 3: I guess like remistifying the world or like making weird

911
00:56:08,800 --> 00:56:12,560
Speaker 3: shit happen through what they call the Elysian network with

912
00:56:12,840 --> 00:56:15,800
Speaker 3: Ellis's like one of the goddlesses of the dkm you

913
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:20,160
Speaker 3: And it's very much like that sort of mix between

914
00:56:21,160 --> 00:56:26,920
Speaker 3: magic personal practice, community and like a somewhat unified but

915
00:56:26,960 --> 00:56:31,680
Speaker 3: also decentralized like a cult war. Like there's a political

916
00:56:31,880 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 3: statement to it at the end, which there needs to

917
00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 3: be more of personally speaking.

918
00:56:37,719 --> 00:56:41,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was like some vague gesturing towards like politics

919
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,440
Speaker 2: beyond you know, the mention of like you know, magic

920
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 2: as a form of resistance in the in the opening

921
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 2: a little paragraph on the program that they handed out,

922
00:56:49,200 --> 00:56:52,400
Speaker 2: but like there was specifically in the politics of Tarot Block,

923
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,759
Speaker 2: one of the talks about the history of the Emperor

924
00:56:56,239 --> 00:57:00,640
Speaker 2: and the Herofinch card, the speaker referred to the United

925
00:57:00,640 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 2: States is having an emperor crisis right now. But that

926
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 2: was kind of it that the rest of the talk

927
00:57:06,239 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 2: was purely historical. The talk before that was on queering

928
00:57:11,239 --> 00:57:16,320
Speaker 2: the Tarot, trying to free Taro from heteronormative readings.

929
00:57:17,760 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 5: And discussed and discussed a few.

930
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:28,400
Speaker 2: You know, artists, discussed a few artists who are attempting

931
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: to do this, whether through abstracting the humanoid forms in

932
00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:35,640
Speaker 2: the tarot or reflecting the tarot figures to be more

933
00:57:35,680 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 2: representative of quote unquote queer identities.

934
00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:39,960
Speaker 3: That was kind of it.

935
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,520
Speaker 2: In terms of the political aspect, which is I guess

936
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 2: kind of lacking. As much as they want this to

937
00:57:45,720 --> 00:57:47,440
Speaker 2: be a culture, they don't want this to be a

938
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,880
Speaker 2: political conference, it seems. And I think, you know, if

939
00:57:49,960 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 2: everyone you know in their talk had to have some

940
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:55,920
Speaker 2: section on like you know, communism or it fascism or whatever,

941
00:57:56,200 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 2: that probably would have been bad. And that's that's not

942
00:57:58,560 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 2: what we're saying. But I mean, specifically, I think if

943
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:06,480
Speaker 2: they're naming this after Genesis Porridge, they were using a

944
00:58:06,560 --> 00:58:08,880
Speaker 2: term by Genesis Porege. You had a very strong idea

945
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:11,600
Speaker 2: of why they were doing this work, and specifically, I

946
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,000
Speaker 2: was very frustrated in the way people talked about Genesis

947
00:58:14,080 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 2: at the conference, who almost all of them misgendered Genesis

948
00:58:18,640 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 2: and refused to discuss that length. Some of them they

949
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:25,400
Speaker 2: have mentioned it, but discussed Genesis porrig Is. One of

950
00:58:25,640 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 2: her core of occult practices was on androgenizing herself androgyny

951
00:58:31,640 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 2: projects androgyny and like breaking and Breaking gender, which they

952
00:58:36,000 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 2: framed as an occult project, and yet even people who

953
00:58:40,120 --> 00:58:44,439
Speaker 2: she knew at the conference would only refer to them

954
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:49,400
Speaker 2: as a hymn through all the talks, including the last guy,

955
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:54,800
Speaker 2: Carl Apronsom, who biograph yeah and like this is, this is.

956
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 2: I do not think this was out of like, you know, malice.

957
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:00,480
Speaker 2: I think this was just a linguistic blockage for some

958
00:59:00,520 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 2: people who may not even been thinking about what they

959
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 2: were doing. But it shows like an actual disconnect from

960
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 2: engaging with the real purpose of magic, or at least

961
00:59:09,840 --> 00:59:12,280
Speaker 2: what I would would argue that is, and what I would,

962
00:59:12,360 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 2: you know, suppose Genesis's penrogyny project as a as a

963
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 2: form of magic. But this, this, this kind of demonstrates

964
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 2: the very limited political application for quote unquote unique resistance,

965
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 2: since that's the term they're using, not not me, which

966
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 2: kind of underlines this this this whole this whole conference.

967
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:33,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I think the Borough's talk was probably the

968
00:59:33,880 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 2: most the very first Burroughs talk, which we opened up

969
00:59:37,160 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 2: the last episode with this is the most you know,

970
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:43,560
Speaker 2: explicitly political one and talking about you know, going against control,

971
00:59:44,200 --> 00:59:47,640
Speaker 2: freedom in this like anarchic or libertarian sense, or you know,

972
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 2: revolt against monotheism.

973
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:54,120
Speaker 3: I suppose like one of my frustrations as well, is

974
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 3: this the constant mention of the c cru which nobody

975
01:00:00,320 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 3: went into depth on, which you know, for all its faults,

976
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 3: and you know, nick Land being nick Land was very

977
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:14,880
Speaker 3: much like a sort of like radical cultural Marxists, like

978
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 3: a project, right, It's like cybernetic Marxism mixed with like

979
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 3: Crowley and some content whatever. But is extremely frustrating to see, yeah,

980
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,080
Speaker 3: that sort of refusal to engage with like the political

981
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,919
Speaker 3: stuff of it. Because like even before like Psychic Youth,

982
01:00:35,080 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 3: there was like throbbing gristle Genesis band that pioneered industrial music.

983
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:44,600
Speaker 3: Who I mean this was a bit before punk music,

984
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 3: but like it very much played with like the same

985
01:00:46,880 --> 01:00:49,520
Speaker 3: sort of shock aesthetics that like the early punks would

986
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 3: wear swastikas, where like Throbbing Gristle had the logo is

987
01:00:54,240 --> 01:00:56,600
Speaker 3: very much like a lightning bolt with like black and

988
01:00:56,680 --> 01:00:57,720
Speaker 3: red and white.

989
01:00:57,920 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 2: Genesis herself engaged in some of this stuff not from

990
01:01:01,720 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: a fasci perspective, but from a provocative perspective, which I mean,

991
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:10,880
Speaker 2: you can certainly criticize uh psychic TV and and and

992
01:01:11,040 --> 01:01:14,920
Speaker 2: and her for as many many people have, But I.

993
01:01:14,960 --> 01:01:17,320
Speaker 3: Mean shock value is kind of overrated nowadays with like

994
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:20,520
Speaker 3: Internet edtual words. But I very much believe that occultism

995
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,520
Speaker 3: being this, you know, this collection of practices that have

996
01:01:23,680 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 3: been very censored and you know, punished by like the

997
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:30,400
Speaker 3: church and such things, and like I guess these systems

998
01:01:30,480 --> 01:01:34,640
Speaker 3: of control were like I guess I take issue with

999
01:01:34,720 --> 01:01:37,040
Speaker 3: like the oh it's like all fun and all and

1000
01:01:38,280 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 3: light and love and whatever. But there's like a radical

1001
01:01:43,040 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 3: element to occultism and a radical possibility to use occultism

1002
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:50,520
Speaker 3: to again like the whole cultural like the idea between

1003
01:01:50,560 --> 01:01:55,120
Speaker 3: personal practice and cultural production, right, like creating cultural artifacts

1004
01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:58,680
Speaker 3: and putting them out into the world. Being very proactive

1005
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:04,320
Speaker 3: with the the shaping and the pushing of radical ideas

1006
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:09,840
Speaker 3: and possibilities is a very potent thing to be to do.

1007
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 3: And the sort of I guess like liberalized or like

1008
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:19,920
Speaker 3: neoliberal idea of like the personal practice and like I'm

1009
01:02:20,000 --> 01:02:24,240
Speaker 3: changing my perceptions and all these things are fine, but

1010
01:02:24,680 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 3: it's more like self soothing than it is about creating

1011
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:29,160
Speaker 3: change into the world.

1012
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 4: If you're not actually changing anything, are you doing magic exactly?

1013
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,360
Speaker 3: At least that would be my well, that would be

1014
01:02:36,440 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 3: my argument for like for coming from the chaosmatic perspective, this.

1015
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:44,520
Speaker 5: Gets to another kind of trite and facile academic thematic

1016
01:02:44,720 --> 01:02:48,360
Speaker 5: that is present and prevalent for the past probably twenty years.

1017
01:02:48,400 --> 01:02:51,440
Speaker 5: At this point, I feel like at most philosophy and

1018
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:55,720
Speaker 5: political science political theory conferences where the question is not

1019
01:02:55,880 --> 01:02:57,720
Speaker 5: just what would it look like if, but you know,

1020
01:02:57,920 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 5: to think otherwise, you know, think otherwise than we have,

1021
01:03:03,080 --> 01:03:05,920
Speaker 5: And usually it's this, how do we think other than

1022
01:03:05,960 --> 01:03:08,480
Speaker 5: we have? Those kinds of things, and so it I

1023
01:03:08,560 --> 01:03:12,160
Speaker 5: mean again, magic and as we've been talking about here

1024
01:03:12,680 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 5: is meant to evoke change in the world, to cause

1025
01:03:15,840 --> 01:03:18,840
Speaker 5: change the world in conformity with reality. We're going to

1026
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 5: use you know, with with with will, if we're going

1027
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:22,880
Speaker 5: to use the Crowley, you know definition here, which I

1028
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:24,000
Speaker 5: think is fine. Great.

1029
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:25,480
Speaker 2: I want a goth girlfriend.

1030
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 5: Thankfully you can talk to AI, but I'm worried that.

1031
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:34,240
Speaker 4: She might beat you, that you kill her, like all

1032
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:35,480
Speaker 4: my old tamagotchi is.

1033
01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:41,640
Speaker 5: But this is the issue that we are talking around,

1034
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:44,040
Speaker 5: that the conference and a culture has been talking around,

1035
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 5: and the political problematic that we're all dealing with right

1036
01:03:46,520 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 5: now is how the fuck do we evoke change in

1037
01:03:48,520 --> 01:03:52,919
Speaker 5: the world. How is it when systems of institutional representation

1038
01:03:53,120 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 5: within politics and power fail to represent the will of

1039
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:58,800
Speaker 5: the people. How do the people make change?

1040
01:03:58,960 --> 01:04:01,280
Speaker 2: And every if you like, everything's been tried. I mean

1041
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,200
Speaker 2: this is where I mean Fisher, who I would argue

1042
01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:07,280
Speaker 2: is at least in a cultist or is at least

1043
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:09,680
Speaker 2: has some mystical aspect, if not, was at some point

1044
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 2: an occultist, like you know, reach reached out. The point

1045
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,120
Speaker 2: of capitalist realism is like most things that we you know,

1046
01:04:15,200 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 2: can think of, we actually have. We have, we have

1047
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:20,560
Speaker 2: given a shot, including including occultism. We have we have

1048
01:04:20,680 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 2: tried to do this, and yet here we are. The

1049
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:26,120
Speaker 2: world's maybe not as bad as it has been, but

1050
01:04:26,280 --> 01:04:29,320
Speaker 2: it's not in a great spot. I think everyone listening

1051
01:04:29,360 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 2: to this would certainly understand that. I think most people

1052
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:37,160
Speaker 2: at the conference understood that. And yeah, I mean I'm

1053
01:04:37,440 --> 01:04:41,400
Speaker 2: very skeptical of magic as as a as a certainly

1054
01:04:41,440 --> 01:04:43,200
Speaker 2: as an individual practice as a way to you know,

1055
01:04:43,320 --> 01:04:46,640
Speaker 2: cause larger political change. But even you know, can there

1056
01:04:46,680 --> 01:04:49,440
Speaker 2: even in this this revolves back to the concept of

1057
01:04:49,480 --> 01:04:52,000
Speaker 2: a culture, like can there even be in a cult anymore?

1058
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,560
Speaker 2: Because none of these you know, magical things are very

1059
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:58,080
Speaker 2: hidden anymore. They're all very accessible, They're all very visible.

1060
01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:01,920
Speaker 2: They're there is you know hidden as queer flagging is

1061
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:05,640
Speaker 2: right as an occult, as an occultic ritual of you know,

1062
01:05:05,760 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 2: hidden signs to communicate with other people in the know,

1063
01:05:08,800 --> 01:05:10,920
Speaker 2: something that is now you could just look up on

1064
01:05:11,000 --> 01:05:15,360
Speaker 2: the Internet. And I think occult occult practices and symbols

1065
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:18,720
Speaker 2: have reached the same point. It's it's content. I mean,

1066
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:23,000
Speaker 2: I like the Esoterica YouTube channel as much as us

1067
01:05:23,400 --> 01:05:26,280
Speaker 2: as much as much as the next person, But I mean,

1068
01:05:26,800 --> 01:05:29,040
Speaker 2: are these things even a cult anymore?

1069
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:30,000
Speaker 3: Well?

1070
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 5: That also speaks to the fundamental tension between this current

1071
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 5: at the conference and the other current at the conference,

1072
01:05:36,440 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 5: which was the much more traditional magical practices or the

1073
01:05:39,400 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 5: folk magical practices or what we would.

1074
01:05:41,560 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 4: Regulate like stant magical practice.

1075
01:05:43,520 --> 01:05:46,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, extant magical practices that weren't you know, weren't suppressed

1076
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:49,680
Speaker 5: by Christianity but carried over. So you have you had

1077
01:05:49,720 --> 01:05:52,040
Speaker 5: a section on Kimbanda, you had a section on Palamayumbe.

1078
01:05:52,400 --> 01:05:56,680
Speaker 5: You have the Roman magical school that is being founded

1079
01:05:56,680 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 5: in Romania, and you have the modern Goeisha the eighth

1080
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 5: this right, which we identified very clearly as a practice

1081
01:06:03,320 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 5: that continues to this very day. The context in which

1082
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:09,800
Speaker 5: we understand that practice is not a cult them secret

1083
01:06:10,160 --> 01:06:12,280
Speaker 5: like in the no, it's just that like it's the

1084
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 5: stuff that you grew up with. It's every day and

1085
01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:18,520
Speaker 5: in that case it's not transformative because it's just part

1086
01:06:18,640 --> 01:06:21,920
Speaker 5: of your daily existence. It's a kind of enchantment that

1087
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 5: by and large are kind of like you know, European

1088
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 5: Protestant Catholic defectors, whatever has brought you to the ocult

1089
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 5: in the first place, don't experience as a community or

1090
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:36,720
Speaker 5: community engagement. But those are also things that can get

1091
01:06:36,800 --> 01:06:37,840
Speaker 5: deeply conservative.

1092
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 4: They are.

1093
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 5: But also the.

1094
01:06:40,200 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 4: Parts of those practices that do require initiation, that are

1095
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 4: not something that everyone's grandmother is doing, are also community

1096
01:06:48,400 --> 01:06:52,560
Speaker 4: based and exists specifically in and for community, and you know,

1097
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:55,959
Speaker 4: as occult projects that have influenced the world.

1098
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,360
Speaker 5: The Haitian Revolution, the good Revolution that we should all

1099
01:07:00,400 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 5: be talking about you but.

1100
01:07:01,680 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 4: These things do. But I mean the occult has bubbled

1101
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:09,840
Speaker 4: to the surface in material ways, very very explicitly in

1102
01:07:10,040 --> 01:07:14,560
Speaker 4: some instances, and so I think there could be potential.

1103
01:07:14,880 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 4: But it does require being in community and being in

1104
01:07:19,680 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 4: service of community, even if it's not a practice that

1105
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 4: is being practiced by every single person around you.

1106
01:07:25,720 --> 01:07:28,160
Speaker 5: To be an on gun or a mambo in Haitian

1107
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:31,480
Speaker 5: voodoo is to serve the community. It's it's not simply

1108
01:07:31,560 --> 01:07:34,200
Speaker 5: just a matter of magical wu or something like that,

1109
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,480
Speaker 5: or the personal accumulation of power in some sort of

1110
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,240
Speaker 5: like individual magical sense. Now you're serving your community. That's

1111
01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 5: what it is that you're doing. It's first and foremost

1112
01:07:43,160 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 5: a service. Position on the Haitian Revolution. Look, I understand this,

1113
01:07:46,840 --> 01:07:51,680
Speaker 5: like the American standing the American Revolution makes you, I guess,

1114
01:07:51,720 --> 01:07:55,800
Speaker 5: a classical liberal or whatever it is that you fetishize

1115
01:07:55,840 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 5: that into. If you're opposed to the French Revolution, that

1116
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 5: makes you a you know, class conservative. Right, If you

1117
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 5: stand the Haitian Revolution. I guess that makes you a radical.

1118
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 5: That the myth, the legend, the discussion, this understanding is

1119
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 5: that the Haitian Revolution was sparked by the possession of

1120
01:08:13,160 --> 01:08:18,360
Speaker 5: the low law, specifically Izili Danto, who you know sacrificed

1121
01:08:18,400 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 5: a pig. There's depictions of this and Haitian art all

1122
01:08:20,920 --> 01:08:25,080
Speaker 5: over the place. This leads to, you know, slave uprisings, rebellions, revolution,

1123
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:29,639
Speaker 5: well organized. Fantastic, Yeah, magical practice and action.

1124
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 2: And that wraps up our panel discussion on the twenty

1125
01:08:35,080 --> 01:08:40,360
Speaker 2: twenty five A Culture Conference. Thanks again to Delta, Ryan

1126
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:44,679
Speaker 2: and Lane for joining me in this magical journey to Berlin.

1127
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:49,480
Speaker 2: And now I will start the tedious process of transcribing

1128
01:08:49,520 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 2: all of the talks I recorded and writing my written

1129
01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:55,000
Speaker 2: report on the A Culture Conference, where I can go

1130
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 2: into a bit more depth into some of these topics

1131
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,280
Speaker 2: and reach a person conclusion on the role of occultism

1132
01:09:02,960 --> 01:09:08,360
Speaker 2: and its ability to infest, influence or undermined culture versus

1133
01:09:08,640 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 2: culture's capacity of eating away at the occult. That report

1134
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:16,120
Speaker 2: should be coming out before the end of the year.

1135
01:09:17,080 --> 01:09:22,280
Speaker 2: See you on the other side, it could happen. Here

1136
01:09:22,439 --> 01:09:25,080
Speaker 2: is a production of Cool Zone Media for more podcasts

1137
01:09:25,080 --> 01:09:28,519
Speaker 2: from cool Zone Media. Visit our website coolzonmedia dot com,

1138
01:09:29,000 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 2: or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1139
01:09:32,200 --> 01:09:35,000
Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find

1140
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 2: sources for it could happen here, listed directly in episode descriptions.

1141
01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening.