WEBVTT - Exxon Mobil's Evil Scheme for Guyana 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:08.520 Oh my goodness, it's it could happen here, a podcast 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:13.720 about things falling apart, putting them back together, and the 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:17.720 Sissifician task of occasionally trying to stop them from crumbling 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:21.840 as fast as they otherwise would. I'm Robert Evans, who 0:00:21.920 --> 0:00:24.640 is not great at introducing this podcast, and I'm joined 0:00:24.680 --> 0:00:27.720 with James, who is better at introducing this podcast. But 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:29.560 I strong harmed him out of it. 0:00:31.400 --> 0:00:31.920 Not true. 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:38.479 Well, we'll let the audience decide. So, James, today, you 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.599 and I are here to talk to a journalist that 0:00:41.680 --> 0:00:45.519 we both like quite a lot, Amy Westervelt. Amy is 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:50.320 the host of a podcast called Drilled, which focuses on 0:00:50.640 --> 0:00:53.400 shady stuff done by the oil and gas industry, and 0:00:53.400 --> 0:00:57.040 particularly we're talking about season eight of Drilled, which is 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:00.880 focused on what Exon is doing in a South American 0:01:00.880 --> 0:01:05.880 country called Guyana, and it's a really fascinating story. There's 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.920 a lot here, including kind of the way in which 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:12.520 oil and gas companies move in and in a kind 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:17.160 of predatory way, create contracts with smaller countries that don't 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.600 maybe have the legal resources to set themselves up as 0:01:20.680 --> 0:01:22.680 well as they otherwise would, that don't have kind of 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:26.360 the long basis of environmental law rulings that like areas 0:01:26.360 --> 0:01:30.440 that have been you know, used for by the oil 0:01:30.480 --> 0:01:33.440 and gas industry for longer periods of time have and 0:01:33.520 --> 0:01:36.200 kind of the fight by activists in that country to 0:01:37.240 --> 0:01:40.600 rest control back from Exxon, and a bunch of other 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.080 stuff besides, Amy, welcome to the show. I think that's 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:44.480 that's enough of an intro from me. 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:47.960 Hi, thank you, thanks for having me. 0:01:49.320 --> 0:01:52.080 Yeah, Amy, I'm curious kind of what got you started 0:01:52.200 --> 0:01:55.320 thinking about and focusing on and really digging into what's 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:59.640 been happening in Guyana, Because obviously this is you know, uh, 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:03.040 the oil and gas industry is a topic of concern 0:02:03.120 --> 0:02:07.080 for most progressives, but people tend to focus on, you know, 0:02:07.160 --> 0:02:10.560 kind of the Permian basin, the Gulf of Mexico, obviously, 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:12.359 the Middle East, these places that are kind of seen 0:02:12.400 --> 0:02:15.200 as traditionally more the bread basket of the oil and 0:02:15.280 --> 0:02:16.120 gas industry. 0:02:16.960 --> 0:02:17.240 Yeah. 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:23.519 I started looking at Guyana because I follow a lot 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:30.639 of Exxon's shareholder briefings and reports like that, and I 0:02:30.760 --> 0:02:36.680 kept seeing them talking about about the project in Guyana, 0:02:36.720 --> 0:02:40.160 and just how like the projections kept increasing so quickly, 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:41.880 and it got to a point where I was like, 0:02:41.919 --> 0:02:44.880 hold on a second. They are projecting that this is 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:48.160 going to be producing more than the Permian Basin by 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.200 twenty twenty five. And this is a country that shipped 0:02:51.240 --> 0:02:56.480 its first barrel of oil in twenty nineteen. That's incredible, 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.840 kind of unheard of that something would happen that fast. 0:02:59.880 --> 0:03:03.600 So and I happened, like just so happened to have 0:03:03.639 --> 0:03:06.120 had a friend years and years and years ago in 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:10.160 San Francisco who who like helped do I don't know, 0:03:10.200 --> 0:03:13.040 like marketing for the tourism board in Guyana, and was 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:16.400 constantly telling me about how Guyana was this amazing eco 0:03:16.440 --> 0:03:22.360 tourism destination. So I had this so I had this like, 0:03:22.880 --> 0:03:26.239 this idea of Guyana in my head is like ecotourism central. 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:30.160 And then I kept seeing all of these updates around 0:03:30.360 --> 0:03:32.639 around drilling there, so that's kind of what initially got 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:36.200 me interested. And then I got a press release about 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:40.320 a lawsuit being filed there by an attorney who was 0:03:40.360 --> 0:03:42.920 trying to kind of stop the oil drilling. 0:03:44.080 --> 0:03:47.640 So yeah, yeah, and this attorney has a has a 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.400 pretty interesting backstory herself, right she does. 0:03:51.640 --> 0:03:55.080 And that was also very interesting because she actually was 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:56.960 in house council for BP. 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.080 Yeah, Deepwater Horizon. 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.880 Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly. So she grew up in Guyana, 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:08.240 her family lap When she was around twelve or thirteen, 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.440 there was quite a bit of political unrest in Guyana 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:18.960 spurred like so many places by DAA and oh gosh, 0:04:19.000 --> 0:04:21.320 like the history of Banna is really interesting. But anyway, 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.279 so there was a lot of political unrest. Family felt 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:28.839 it unsafe. They left. They went to Zambia and then Trinidad, 0:04:28.880 --> 0:04:31.600 and then you end up going to school in England, 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:37.799 went to Oxford, you know, has this like very posh 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:42.840 ee accent now. And then at one point decided, you know, 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.640 she was working for BP and traveling all over and 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:49.960 and just kind of got fed up with it and 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:54.760 wanted to move back to Aana. So she moved back 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:58.000 started working for a corporate law firm there to get 0:04:58.120 --> 0:05:01.120 very interested in environmental laws because at the time the 0:05:01.160 --> 0:05:06.359 country was just starting to write its first environmental laws. 0:05:08.200 --> 0:05:10.160 This is like mid nineties ish. 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:11.760 Yeah. And one of the things you make a point 0:05:11.760 --> 0:05:14.560 on in the podcast that is really is interesting is, 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:16.880 you know, I grew up in Texas and I had 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:20.320 a lot of friends from the Permian basin, and you 0:05:20.360 --> 0:05:21.960 don't think of it, and you don't think of the 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:26.039 Gulf as like an area of strong environmental regulations, and 0:05:26.040 --> 0:05:28.400 if you've spent any time in the Gulf of Mexico, 0:05:28.440 --> 0:05:31.200 you certainly don't feel that way. But it actually, I mean, 0:05:31.240 --> 0:05:32.679 it is not which. 0:05:32.520 --> 0:05:34.680 Is not to say that they're strong enough, you know, 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.280 it's not to say that they are sufficient, but it's 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:42.440 I mean, and it's not just that there's stronger regulations there, 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.000 and the regulations are largely a product of how long 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:46.840 people have been taking gas out of oil out of 0:05:46.839 --> 0:05:47.480 the ground. 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.159 But it's also that because it's got a century, you know, 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:53.960 or so of being utilized by the industry, there's kind 0:05:54.000 --> 0:05:57.120 of a there's a level of institutional knowledge built up 0:05:57.240 --> 0:05:59.920 about how to do it relatively, which number one speaks 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:02.760 how inherently dangerous it is because the deep Water Horizon 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.320 disaster happens right in the heart of this area. But 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.240 it also means that when you've got a company like 0:06:08.400 --> 0:06:12.160 x On starting work in a place like Ghana, they 0:06:12.200 --> 0:06:14.840 don't have any of that, any of that build up 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:17.919 built up kind of competence or expertise in sort of 0:06:17.920 --> 0:06:19.000 dealing with these problems. 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:21.920 Yeah, that's right. They don't have you don't have kind 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.799 of the heavy benchful of you know, experts just hanging 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:31.360 out looking for jobs. You don't have the disaster response 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.560 to expertise in case of a spill, for example, and 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.560 you also don't have the regulatory oversight expertise, which has 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:45.120 been a huge problem in Guyana. They got they got 0:06:45.120 --> 0:06:47.080 a grant from the World Bank at one point. This 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:48.440 was also super controversial. 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:50.040 Was really interesting to me. Yeah. 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:54.839 Yeah, it was like it was right like right before 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.400 the World Bank issued its whole you know, we're not 0:06:58.600 --> 0:07:04.520 gonna recommend fossil fuel developed as much anymore kind of pronouncement. 0:07:04.960 --> 0:07:09.240 They sort of fast tracked this grant to Guyana to 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:14.240 create and grow like a petroleum regulatory department in its 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:18.160 EPA because they didn't have, like it didn't exist before, 0:07:19.040 --> 0:07:24.880 so they started to build that out. And but you 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:27.880 know it's almost like they're building the regulatory apparatus as 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:31.280 they're starting to drill. So you can imagine like, how 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:32.280 well that's. 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:36.680 I think so I think you said in your podcast. 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:39.840 They dropped this hundreds of pages like environmental risk report, 0:07:39.880 --> 0:07:41.720 and it got to prove the same day that they 0:07:41.760 --> 0:07:43.120 received it, right, that's right. 0:07:43.200 --> 0:07:46.400 Yeah, it's like stamped, like the date of receipt and 0:07:46.440 --> 0:07:49.680 the date of approval are stamped on the report and 0:07:49.760 --> 0:07:53.120 it's the same day, so there's not a lot of 0:07:53.160 --> 0:07:54.240 oversight happening. 0:07:54.440 --> 0:07:58.480 Hey, some people are speed readers, Amy, you know, I. 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:02.679 Spent all that well bank money on speed reading courses. 0:08:02.920 --> 0:08:10.440 Yeah yeah, really really yeah, I'm going to guess. 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:15.800 They're very focused over there, Yes, yeah, so you know, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:20.600 I mean they I actually talked to. I actually talked 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:24.760 to this guy who ran the EPA in Gayana, like 0:08:24.800 --> 0:08:27.640 the first couple of years that they were producing oil, 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:30.560 and he had formerly worked for the Department of Energy 0:08:30.680 --> 0:08:33.520 in the US and was trying to set up like 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.480 real oversight and like his recommendation was that they have 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:42.520 an EPA staff member actually physically on the production Bethel 0:08:42.600 --> 0:08:49.680 at all times, which like, uh yeah, no one was into. 0:08:49.760 --> 0:08:50.840 So that guy got fired. 0:08:54.720 --> 0:08:58.760 Yeah great, So maybe I'm talking about like the legal 0:08:58.760 --> 0:09:02.480 panisher of Texas and the different system in Guyana would 0:09:02.480 --> 0:09:05.120 be a good way to segue into talking about this 0:09:05.120 --> 0:09:09.560 this like right space approach that they used to I 0:09:09.559 --> 0:09:12.760 guess ultimately try and ensure some kind of responsibility was 0:09:12.800 --> 0:09:16.800 taken by the oil companies. Can Yeah, yeah, do you 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:18.480 want to explain that for people. 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:21.600 In terms of like the right to a healthy environment? 0:09:21.679 --> 0:09:23.079 Yeah, I think it's very interesting. 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:27.280 Yeah, it's really interesting. It's super interesting. So Melinda Jinki, 0:09:27.360 --> 0:09:30.320 this lawyer who us worked for BP from Guyana, moved 0:09:30.360 --> 0:09:33.480 home starts working on these laws. She helped to write 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:38.160 the country's first kind of environmental protection Act, which established 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:42.680 its EPA, and then in nineteen eighty six and again 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:47.440 in two thousand and three there were some revisions to 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:52.600 the constitution. So in early two thousands she worked on 0:09:53.480 --> 0:09:58.000 getting a right to a healthy environment integrated into the constitution, 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.840 which basically just says, you know, you know, every citizen 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:06.240 has the right to a livable environment for you know, 0:10:06.480 --> 0:10:13.120 themselves and for future generations. So that actually opened up 0:10:13.160 --> 0:10:18.560 the ability for citizens to sue the government over this 0:10:18.679 --> 0:10:21.840 oil dilling project. So there's a couple of people who 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.080 are doing that, and they are arguing that the government 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:29.200 is violating their right to a healthy environment by not 0:10:29.320 --> 0:10:33.280 just permitting this offshore drilling, but doing it in this 0:10:33.400 --> 0:10:36.599 really kind of reckless way where either a sort of 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:40.560 rubber stamping permits, they're not really providing any oversight excellon 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:44.680 like brags constantly about how this project is, Like, you know, 0:10:44.880 --> 0:10:47.240 we've done in five years, what usually takes ten? 0:10:49.559 --> 0:10:50.160 I asked them. 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:52.480 I was like, oh, is there like a new technology 0:10:52.559 --> 0:10:56.200 or like a new drilling approach or something like. The 0:10:56.280 --> 0:10:58.760 answer is, you know, more or less boils down to 0:10:58.880 --> 0:11:01.560 a very quote unquote collaborative government. 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:08.920 So you know, oh boy, that's. 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:10.520 Good, very fast. You need to dig into that. 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:19.480 Aproach, break things, not totally exactly, And and the Guyamese 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:24.080 government has this idea I think that, well they've they've 0:11:24.160 --> 0:11:27.560 actually said this out loud a few times that like 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:31.920 net zero is uh, you know, commitments to net zero 0:11:32.400 --> 0:11:35.280 is sort of like their timeline, you know, where they're like, okay, well, 0:11:35.320 --> 0:11:37.120 you know everyone wants to get to net zero by 0:11:37.160 --> 0:11:39.760 such and such dates, So we need to get oil 0:11:39.800 --> 0:11:42.160 out of the ground as fast as possible and sell 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:45.640 it so that we can meet that zero, right, so. 0:11:48.720 --> 0:11:49.040 And so. 0:11:51.240 --> 0:11:58.520 And because of how really crappy the contract is for Anna, 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:02.080 they are kind of incentivized to do that as well, 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:06.400 because the faster they can get oil out of the 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.800 ground and sold, the faster they might be able to 0:12:08.920 --> 0:12:11.840 kind of get to a place where actually getting sort 0:12:11.880 --> 0:12:15.800 of their promised share of the oil money, so they 0:12:17.120 --> 0:12:20.680 they're incentivized to move fast and kind of look the 0:12:20.760 --> 0:12:24.280 way on stuff. I mean, there's the first two years 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.880 of that project. Exon talked publicly about the fact that 0:12:28.200 --> 0:12:30.520 a pretty key piece of equipment on the boat was 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:40.200 broken for two years. That's cool. Yeah, and again it's 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.000 like a it's an offshore deep water drilling project. This 0:12:43.120 --> 0:12:45.440 is like the most risky type of oil dren there is. 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:48.520 There's an enormous amount of pressure at that you know, 0:12:48.679 --> 0:12:52.280 level of depth of the ocean. It's exactly the sort 0:12:52.280 --> 0:12:57.160 of situations that deep water spill happened in, and a 0:12:57.200 --> 0:13:01.200 lot of like similar kind of approaches to you maintenance 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:06.400 and safety happening. So yeah, not great. 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:18.800 Now, I wanted to talk a little bit one of 0:13:18.800 --> 0:13:20.800 the things that you you kind of open up the 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.079 series with that I found very very intriguing and it's 0:13:24.080 --> 0:13:27.480 something I've heard from other journalists in the same beat 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:30.320 as you, is that when you start work on a 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:34.720 project that focuses on Exon, some peculiar things start to 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:38.040 happen just like and nothing, nothing, nothing we can say 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.360 for certain, is like tied to Exxon Mobile. 0:13:40.720 --> 0:13:41.080 That's right. 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:44.240 Yeah, you do notice some like weird things. I wanted 0:13:44.240 --> 0:13:46.199 to chat a little bit about that because it's it 0:13:46.559 --> 0:13:49.520 does scan with other things I've heard from from other folks. 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:52.120 True, it's true, and I you know, I report on 0:13:52.160 --> 0:13:55.439 all of the oil companies, and none of them particularly 0:13:55.520 --> 0:14:00.480 like journalists, especially journalists, and they, you know, will kind 0:14:00.480 --> 0:14:05.040 of do the usual thing of sending you nasty emails 0:14:05.360 --> 0:14:08.840 or refusing to have their executives talk to you like that. 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:13.240 But with Exon, it's like every every time I'm working 0:14:13.240 --> 0:14:16.760 on an Excellon story, it's just like you know, if 0:14:16.800 --> 0:14:21.320 I'm traveling, all my travel plans get canceled. There's always 0:14:21.440 --> 0:14:25.080 just there's always just weird stuff that happens, like you know, 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:31.240 you start to feel like being watched and followed a lot. 0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:37.200 And and yeah, it's super not just me that that experience. 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:40.040 I know that everyone I know that has reported on 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:45.360 them has said that's definitely like there's you know, just 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.400 a kind of an intimation thing that they like to do. 0:14:48.720 --> 0:14:52.600 I actually was surprised that that Steve call who wrote 0:14:52.640 --> 0:14:56.080 the book Private Empire about Exon, said to me, and 0:14:56.200 --> 0:14:58.600 I have this in the podcast too, that he has, 0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:01.480 you know, reported on al Qaida and reported on the 0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:05.080 CIA and if he's ever like disappeared, he hold everyone 0:15:05.120 --> 0:15:14.400 he knows that it's probably Exon. So so yeah, yeah 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.080 then and that definitely happened on this project too. Like 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:22.640 we my hotel room got canceled. Hotel room also got 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:27.800 broken into. Yeah, and it was one of those where 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.920 it's like I had cash on the nightstand was still there, 0:15:31.320 --> 0:15:35.000 but like my computer was open with like certain files open, 0:15:35.680 --> 0:15:38.680 things like that, and I don't keep like, you know, 0:15:38.960 --> 0:15:41.720 sensitive files on my laptop and even in my hotel room. 0:15:41.800 --> 0:15:47.040 But it was definitely like, Okay, this seems very pointed, 0:15:47.760 --> 0:15:49.000 and you know. 0:15:49.560 --> 0:15:54.800 Yeah it's intimidation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, totally yeah, 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.440 normal and good and I know no. 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.280 People always ask me, They're like, are you afraid of 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.520 getting sued by Exxon? And I was like, well, I 0:16:01.520 --> 0:16:03.640 guess if I had assets, I would be afraid. 0:16:03.720 --> 0:16:09.680 Yeah, the most concerning thing. 0:16:10.800 --> 0:16:12.080 Yeah, exactly, exactly. 0:16:12.360 --> 0:16:15.720 Yeah, but like I wonder I was really interested in 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.040 I get this legal approach which is very successful in Guyana, right, 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:22.840 and if we compare that, like if we come back 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:26.640 to the United States and I know there's a court case, 0:16:27.040 --> 0:16:28.800 I think it was like it was I'm pretty sure 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.040 it's Boulder, Colorado. I might be wrong, but it was 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:36.960 somewhere like that where they they tried to sue oil 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.560 companies for causing fires. 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:45.040 Right, Yes, there's a climate liability case there and it's 0:16:45.080 --> 0:16:49.280 still going. Actually it's still still alive. They just got 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.000 like a move in their favor at the Supreme Court. 0:16:53.120 --> 0:16:55.480 Because yeah, it isn't the The case in the US 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:57.360 is a bit different, right, where we don't have this 0:16:57.520 --> 0:17:02.880 constitutional right to like a healthy environment, and I'm sure don't. Yeah, yeah, 0:17:02.880 --> 0:17:03.560 I didn't tell you. 0:17:05.920 --> 0:17:08.760 Although actually, guess who does have that in the US 0:17:08.920 --> 0:17:13.320 the Montana Yeah, the state of Montana. Yes, And so 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.480 there's like there's a case there actually that's invoking their 0:17:16.520 --> 0:17:19.359 state constitutional right, which is very very interesting. 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.200 There's a lot of people don't know this about kind 0:17:22.240 --> 0:17:26.320 of the northern western part of the country. You know, 0:17:26.880 --> 0:17:29.719 Mountain Montana is it's not really the PNW, but it's 0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:32.880 the Mountain West, which is that they had especially kind 0:17:32.880 --> 0:17:35.520 of in like the seventies and eighties, this weird history 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:39.560 of like Republican governors, i think into the nineties of 0:17:39.560 --> 0:17:42.880 the early nineties too, like Republican state leaders who were 0:17:42.920 --> 0:17:46.800 also because I guess our national discourse wasn't so inherently 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:51.159 toxic really progressive in bizarre ways. It's one of like 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.960 probably the best governor Oregon ever had was a Republican 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:57.919 who's like one of his chief accomplishments was he made 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.280 all of the coastline in Oregon, both like Lake and 0:18:01.400 --> 0:18:05.439 River coastline and the Ocean coastline public property. He like 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:08.320 set it up so that it's regulated like highways, basically 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.560 so that no one can own private beaches. Now there's 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.600 some little janky ways kind of around aspects of that, 0:18:14.640 --> 0:18:17.360 but like as a general rule, it's a really positive thing, 0:18:17.400 --> 0:18:19.320 and it's like not what you would expect from a Republican. 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:22.160 I think the same thing is true of that lawn Montana, 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:24.520 where it just like you used to be able to 0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.120 have republic I mean like Nixon created the EPA, right, 0:18:27.160 --> 0:18:29.679 it just didn't used to be the same kind of 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:31.080 partisan that it is today. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:36.199 Even like in the early Trump era, there were a 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:41.479 decent number of Republican folks who like specifically opposed drilling 0:18:41.560 --> 0:18:43.760 in bearsiars or like d. 0:18:46.000 --> 0:18:48.200 Interesting wherever they went hunting or something. 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:53.560 Yeah was like yeah, yeah, because we I was like 0:18:53.600 --> 0:18:56.320 the outdoor industry to stop doing trade shows in Utah 0:18:56.320 --> 0:18:59.280 because Utah was gonna The governor of Utah supported de 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.520 monumentizing a load of their like quote unquote hook and bullet. 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:04.760 People were like, yeah, fuck this, it's bad. 0:19:06.040 --> 0:19:08.919 Yeah, I mean it's the same I think it's the 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:12.200 same category as like John McCain having a good take 0:19:12.240 --> 0:19:14.439 on torture right where it's like, yeah, I mean they 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:17.119 live right there. Of course they don't want it destroyed. 0:19:18.320 --> 0:19:22.280 But everybody's okay with you know, poisoning the Gulf or 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:25.560 you know the stuff that the that the coke industries 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:29.359 was guilty of having, like a fucking pipelines full of 0:19:29.359 --> 0:19:31.840 holes running under towns but then explode. 0:19:32.440 --> 0:19:35.800 Yeah, exactly, exactly, And that is actually like the number 0:19:35.880 --> 0:19:39.720 it's like the number one thing that gets people on 0:19:39.720 --> 0:19:43.080 on board with environmental regulation is like having something happen 0:19:43.160 --> 0:19:45.640 and there in the community where they were like, wait 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:50.040 a minute, this doesn't seem fair. Same with Pasolinia, Like 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:54.040 people were really into frecking until it became like wait, 0:19:54.240 --> 0:19:59.280 so if my neighbor has a lease and that lease 0:19:59.600 --> 0:20:05.040 and poisoning my well, I have no records. Yes, that's 0:20:05.040 --> 0:20:11.480 how it works. Welcome to America. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So 0:20:11.560 --> 0:20:13.879 now I mean they're all like, actually, there's there's towns 0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:17.560 and now that are acts being of the right space 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:21.439 thing that are invoking home rule and baking rights of 0:20:21.520 --> 0:20:25.000 nature into their charters. And these are like pretty conservative 0:20:25.119 --> 0:20:27.600 districts too, And the whole reason they're doing it I 0:20:27.640 --> 0:20:30.800 have more local control over land use decision. 0:20:31.520 --> 0:20:33.560 Yeah, which is probably I'm sure a mixed bag to 0:20:33.640 --> 0:20:34.959 some degree. 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:37.879 Exactly because you could imagine that going in a bunch 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:39.040 of different ways. 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:43.800 Yes, yeah, yeah, school board level exactly. 0:20:45.880 --> 0:20:49.320 Right. Now it's like to get rid of fracking waste sites, 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:52.160 but it could easily be yeah, we don't want any 0:20:53.359 --> 0:21:00.920 I don't know, in degraded schools here for example. Yeah, exactly. 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:04.960 Yeah. I wondered it's different in the US in the 0:21:05.040 --> 0:21:08.320 sense that like, id right, this this case in Guyana 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:13.080 went to the Supreme Court of Guyana, right, and is 0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:13.440 that right? 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:18.520 Several so, so Melinda has now filed seven different cases. 0:21:19.720 --> 0:21:25.359 She's she's very busy, and most of them have wound 0:21:25.440 --> 0:21:28.920 up at gay at the High Court of Guyana, which 0:21:28.960 --> 0:21:31.880 is their supreme court. They just had a big verdict 0:21:32.280 --> 0:21:37.040 in another case that she filed which is really interesting 0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:41.520 and potentially huge game changer for oil drilling kind of 0:21:41.960 --> 0:21:46.720 around the globe. They so in the environmental permit that 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.560 Exon had to get in order to start drilling offshore, 0:21:50.600 --> 0:21:53.439 it is laid out as a requirement of that permit 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:58.520 that they have to have insurance policy from an independent insurer, 0:21:59.320 --> 0:22:02.080 so they can't self ensure, which is what oil companies 0:22:02.160 --> 0:22:05.480 usually do. They all have like their own insurance companies 0:22:05.520 --> 0:22:11.679 to ensure their projects. It's bizarre, but anyway, so it 0:22:11.800 --> 0:22:17.199 really it stipulates an independent insurance company and an unlimited 0:22:17.400 --> 0:22:22.960 parent company guarantee. That's really really huge because basically in Guyana, 0:22:23.040 --> 0:22:25.760 as in most other places that they're operating outside of 0:22:25.800 --> 0:22:28.240 the US, they use like a local subsidiary that has 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.760 very few assets. So they have so Exploration and Production 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:37.919 Guyana Limited, which is worth maybe two billion dollars on paper, 0:22:39.680 --> 0:22:43.359 and so you know, it's very handy for them to 0:22:43.600 --> 0:22:47.680 you know, something bad happens and the subsidiary might get drained, 0:22:47.720 --> 0:22:51.000 but the parent company is protected. It was actually written 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:55.000 into their permits they had to have this unlimited guarantee 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:58.480 that they will cover whatever damage is, which is important 0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:02.399 because in all of the environment impact assessments, you know, 0:23:02.840 --> 0:23:07.680 Exon's own environmental impact assessments. They're saying if there were 0:23:07.800 --> 0:23:10.480 a well blowout, which is like what happened with deep water, 0:23:10.960 --> 0:23:15.520 it would hit up to fourteen different Caribbean islands plus 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:19.560 various countries and like the northern coast of South America, 0:23:19.680 --> 0:23:22.359 so like a really big problem. And these are mostly 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:26.800 countries that fry on tourism and for their economies. So 0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:31.840 the argument that Melinda bade was, look, because the government 0:23:31.920 --> 0:23:38.240 has been lacked in regulation and now they haven't required 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:42.320 this guarantee, you're opening up the citizens of this country 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:46.440 to risk because if there's a spill like this, these 0:23:46.480 --> 0:23:50.680 countries could come to Guyana asking to be paid for 0:23:50.880 --> 0:23:56.159 damages and we're not able to And now you've like 0:23:56.320 --> 0:24:01.000 taken you know, exon thing for it off the table. Anyway, 0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.359 the judge in their favor and said, yeah, you're right, Exon, 0:24:04.760 --> 0:24:11.760 you need to have this in writing within thirty days. Yeah, 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:16.560 it's incredible. I mean that could really make it would 0:24:16.600 --> 0:24:19.600 change the math considerably for this project, and I would 0:24:19.680 --> 0:24:25.560 say most other projects that they're working on. The ep is. 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:28.920 It's the EPA and Exon were sort of like co 0:24:29.119 --> 0:24:33.040 defendants in this case, the EPA is appealing also, like 0:24:33.240 --> 0:24:35.760 just by way, when your EPA is a co defendant 0:24:35.760 --> 0:24:37.920 with an oil company, there's something very wrong. 0:24:38.400 --> 0:24:44.640 Yeah, might they might not be doing the p party. 0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:48.440 Exactly, yes, exactly. So they're appealing, and you know, there's 0:24:48.480 --> 0:24:50.959 a lot of government corruption and stuff going on, so 0:24:51.000 --> 0:24:54.000 we'll see, we'll see what happens. But this judge, everyone 0:24:54.160 --> 0:24:56.920 was like, I was talking to a journalist that we've 0:24:56.920 --> 0:24:58.960 been working with there and she was like, yes, everyone's 0:24:59.119 --> 0:25:03.240