Speaker 1: Off the Record is a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to another bonus episode of Off the Record.
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jordan Runtug, Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1: Our latest chapter focused on teenage David Bowie as he
Speaker 1: struggled for fame in the mid sixties. It was a
Speaker 1: frustrating period for the want to be rock star, a
Speaker 1: time of high hopes and repeated failures. Fans of the
Speaker 1: film's Spinal Tap could call this his Thamesman era, as
Speaker 1: he fronted a string of mop top beat bands that
Speaker 1: followed in the wake of the Beatles and the Stones.
Speaker 1: Desperate to become the next Mick Jagger, David leap frogged
Speaker 1: from group to group, hoping he'd find the right one
Speaker 1: that catapult him to success, but his tenure was always
Speaker 1: short lived. Something would always go wrong. Auditions were bombed,
Speaker 1: songs flopped, egos flared. All in all, David quickly realized
Speaker 1: he wasn't really a group guy. None of his bands
Speaker 1: in this period ever made an impact on the charts.
Speaker 1: These days, they're mostly just a footnote in the Bowie story.
Speaker 1: Names like the Conrads, the King Bees, and the Managed
Speaker 1: Boys were never destined for the Rock and a Hall
Speaker 1: of Fame. The strongest of Bowie's early bands was a
Speaker 1: group called The Lower Third. Though they were together less
Speaker 1: than a year. They released the best of Bowie's early songs,
Speaker 1: particularly a thrashy stopper called You've Got a Habit of
Speaker 1: Leaving Me. It was inspired by the ear splitting proto
Speaker 1: punk sound of The Who and maybe borrowed a little
Speaker 1: too liberally one time. The band opened for The Who
Speaker 1: and Pete Towns that came up to them after and
Speaker 1: more or less accused David of pinching his sound. Of course,
Speaker 1: it was all fronting the band that David changed his
Speaker 1: surname from Jones to Bowie. The first song that ever
Speaker 1: bore the name Bowie was a Lower Third single called
Speaker 1: Can't Help Thinking About Me. It was the last release
Speaker 1: for the Lower Third, but not for both. I was
Speaker 1: lucky enough to speak with Philip Lancaster, David's band made
Speaker 1: in the Lower Third. He's written an incredible book called
Speaker 1: At the Birth of Bowie, which recounts all the backstage
Speaker 1: fund and drama of being in a band for the
Speaker 1: future Starman. From his vantage point on the Lower Thirds,
Speaker 1: drum kid Philip Lancaster watched the legend taking shape. He
Speaker 1: was gracious enough to share his memories of that exciting
Speaker 1: time at the Swinging sixties. Well, I guess just to start,
Speaker 1: tell me how you first linked up with the Lower
Speaker 1: Third in the first place. Tell me how you got
Speaker 1: the gig as their drummer. Yeah, okay, So I was
Speaker 1: already working as a drummer, and I was a musician
Speaker 1: out in France and Germany working on American basis. You know,
Speaker 1: a lot of British groups used to tour American bases
Speaker 1: in Europe in those days, in the sixties, and I
Speaker 1: needed a job when I came back, and so I applied. Well,
Speaker 1: either I played posted and aid in the music paper
Speaker 1: or answered one that's a little bit vague about. And
Speaker 1: it turned out to be the Lower Third, I said.
Speaker 1: He said they were looking for a drummer, and I said,
Speaker 1: what kind of band? I You said, well, we play
Speaker 1: mostly our own material. Now by that you meant material
Speaker 1: that was written by David And I said, uh, okay,
Speaker 1: that sounds good. What then he said, we're very loud.
Speaker 1: We played very loud, so that also sounds good. Um,
Speaker 1: kind of raucous, you know, So basically that's how I
Speaker 1: first got in touch with him. And he said, well,
Speaker 1: I expected him for me. I expected that I would
Speaker 1: do an audition. That was the normal thing, and that
Speaker 1: probably is today, I'm sure. But instead of an audition,
Speaker 1: she said, you just got to meet our singer. His
Speaker 1: name's Davy Jones. He was known as Davy Jones then
Speaker 1: Um and the Gaconda, which is a kind of a
Speaker 1: hub for all pop rocks musicians in the sixties. It's
Speaker 1: a little cafe on Denmark Street in London. And so
Speaker 1: he gave me a time and when I sorry a
Speaker 1: time and the place, and I went to the cafe
Speaker 1: and met David there and we just talked. And that's
Speaker 1: how I got to join the group. And what was
Speaker 1: your impression of him when you first met him at
Speaker 1: the at the coffee shop? Mean, what was he like
Speaker 1: as a guy just to have coffee with? YEA, Well,
Speaker 1: brilliant because that was really Eric. We we hit it
Speaker 1: off straight away because um, it's very very personable, very
Speaker 1: friendly and humorous, lots lots of humor, you know, like
Speaker 1: likes to laugh, uh and to make to make people
Speaker 1: laugh and to laugh himself, you know. So we are
Speaker 1: like that too, So we we got off to a
Speaker 1: really good start. And you know, he was doing an impersonation.
Speaker 1: I mean, we ain't just met and he was doing
Speaker 1: impersonation of Bob Dylan sitting in the cafe with you know,
Speaker 1: and we were we had this kind of common interesting
Speaker 1: uh we both loved Jack Tarawact, you know, and everything
Speaker 1: around that kind of thing, you know, from the kind
Speaker 1: of forties fifties speach generation. We was totally plugged into that.
Speaker 1: We found both of us. So, um, the thing went
Speaker 1: on when I went on from there. We just went
Speaker 1: on from there. And instead of like saying, okay, well
Speaker 1: we'll have an audition, he just said, okay, we'll pick
Speaker 1: you up Saturday for for the next gig. You got
Speaker 1: the gig right on the spot. Yeah, they never heard
Speaker 1: me play at all, and picking you up. I guess
Speaker 1: this leads into my next question. A lot of bands
Speaker 1: have vans. You had something way better than a van
Speaker 1: in the lower third. You had an ambulance. Tell me
Speaker 1: about that. Yeah, I know that's pretty weird. Right, So
Speaker 1: basically on the Saturday, they can't to pick me up
Speaker 1: at my parents house where because we're all still young
Speaker 1: enough to be living at home for the other two guys.
Speaker 1: The other two guys were too far away from home
Speaker 1: that to live in gigs, you know. But they picked
Speaker 1: up and they had this ambulance which they'd only just collected,
Speaker 1: and the old van they'd had which I never did
Speaker 1: see it broken down. And Graham, the guy who spoke
Speaker 1: and expokes me on the phone, the bass player, his
Speaker 1: father had lent the band about three hundred pounds I
Speaker 1: think to buy a vehicle. And I don't know who
Speaker 1: found this ambulance and how it happened, but they just
Speaker 1: bought this, this old London ambulance with the bell still
Speaker 1: working and the sign and ambulance on the on the
Speaker 1: front of it, which was completely illegal. If you ever
Speaker 1: lead to gigs, did you ever turn this iron on
Speaker 1: and just zoom a couple of times? A couple of
Speaker 1: times you put it on? But we actually we were
Speaker 1: got We did get stopped by the cops quite a lot,
Speaker 1: not for putting the bell on, but because we just
Speaker 1: still had the bell visible and the sign and we
Speaker 1: were once stopped. But motorcycle cop who made us find
Speaker 1: something to put I don't know what we had sticky
Speaker 1: paid for or something over the ambulance time before he
Speaker 1: would let us drive off. The other thing that didn't
Speaker 1: help either is that Graham, the guy keeps talking about
Speaker 1: the bass player. He did our driving as well before
Speaker 1: we ever the road manager, and he used to wear
Speaker 1: a peaked cap which was very similar to an ambulance man.
Speaker 1: You know, was that unpurposed to complete the facade? No,
Speaker 1: I don't think. I don't think it was that. That's
Speaker 1: the thing. I think it just it just was a coincidence.
Speaker 1: But we did used to drive through that that I'll
Speaker 1: jump on a bit now to something you may ask
Speaker 1: me later, but so all I think of it connected
Speaker 1: to the ambulance. H When we drove through London. Uh.
Speaker 1: We used to Dave and I. There's some sort of
Speaker 1: windows you could slide back high up in it and
Speaker 1: there's like big windows at the side, all smoked out,
Speaker 1: smoked glass, and David and I we always rode in
Speaker 1: the back of the ambulance and the other two guys
Speaker 1: in the cab in the front, which was a divided area,
Speaker 1: so even I were always alone in the back. So
Speaker 1: we got we trying to use ourselves and one of
Speaker 1: the things we did we used to hang our arms
Speaker 1: out of the windows as if we were like it
Speaker 1: was full of wounded. It's pretty sick people. We drive
Speaker 1: past bus cues, you know, bus lineups and watch people's
Speaker 1: spaces because we could see out for them and they
Speaker 1: couldn't see us apart from these arms hanging out, you know,
Speaker 1: and all the moaning and all the moaning. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: So that's like a little bit of thing to do
Speaker 1: with it in an ambulance. I mean, I think for
Speaker 1: a lot of people in bands, just hanging out in
Speaker 1: the van or in your case, the ambulance is just
Speaker 1: sort of the best part that camaraderie, Like how would
Speaker 1: you amuse yourself aside from you know, pranks on the public,
Speaker 1: Like what kind of stuff would you talk about when
Speaker 1: you were driving around to and from? Yeah, well it
Speaker 1: could be anything and everything, you know. I mean, uh,
Speaker 1: they said it was that. The other two guys they
Speaker 1: they were in the original band, because David had only
Speaker 1: joined that band just before I did. Uh. So there's
Speaker 1: two other guys. They were badished from way back and
Speaker 1: lived in the same town in Devon, sorry into big It,
Speaker 1: pardon intent. So they always rode together in the front um.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're all we're all baddies, But I mean
Speaker 1: that just happened that way. And David I sat in
Speaker 1: the in the big cavernus area at the back. So
Speaker 1: that we have to amuse ourselves on these long, long,
Speaker 1: long drives because this thing didn't go that fast, and
Speaker 1: we took forever up and down the country. So we
Speaker 1: would amuse ourselves by, uh, well, talking about common interest.
Speaker 1: But the other thing we do we made used. We
Speaker 1: did have a period where we made up our own
Speaker 1: language of complete gobbledy good you know nothing. It just
Speaker 1: really strange words that we be inspired to use to
Speaker 1: each other. And we would talk with the inner intonation
Speaker 1: whether it be make it sound like a question or
Speaker 1: a statement, and we'd answer each other just the same way.
Speaker 1: So he'd say something completely incomprehensible, but he was saying
Speaker 1: in a way that I'd know whether it was a
Speaker 1: question or statement or he was angry, and I come
Speaker 1: back in the same way with the same tone, the
Speaker 1: tone that was appropriate, but with no words that made
Speaker 1: any sense at all. It was some plea gobbledygook. So
Speaker 1: that was one thing we used to do. The other
Speaker 1: thing we do is we tend we were little kids
Speaker 1: talking to each other and what we'd what we've done
Speaker 1: and that, and he he used to start it, used
Speaker 1: to say, I've just been down and down, I'll fell
Speaker 1: over and praised my knee and then I saw ill
Speaker 1: just to have a look, and that it would go
Speaker 1: on like that for a little while. And then the
Speaker 1: other things we talked about is that what the material
Speaker 1: we were doing, and that's in the vat It was
Speaker 1: in the van that he came up with the idea
Speaker 1: that we would about UM. He said to me, how
Speaker 1: about we try playing Mars from the Planet Suite hosts
Speaker 1: Planet Suite. Uh so that started. That idea started in
Speaker 1: back of the van. So because we used to play
Speaker 1: our version, you know, Mars from the Planet Suite. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's not exactly like Daddy roland Stone. That's a
Speaker 1: that's a that's a unique choice for for you know,
Speaker 1: a mad R and B group to play in the
Speaker 1: mid sixties. And how how did he even land on that? Well,
Speaker 1: because there was a history for him. He loved There
Speaker 1: was a TV show on UM in the early sixties
Speaker 1: called the Quate called quator Mass, and it was a
Speaker 1: science fiction TV show and the theme tune to that
Speaker 1: that show was Mars from the Planet Suite, and he
Speaker 1: particularly liked that piece of music from that show. So
Speaker 1: that's how come it was in his mind. Um, never
Speaker 1: mind the fact that it takes a thing two full
Speaker 1: orchestras to play it. There was only like us four
Speaker 1: and you know, David n harmonica lead guitar, based guitar
Speaker 1: and drums and we it used to play our version
Speaker 1: of it though at the Marquee Club and it always
Speaker 1: went down all right, So I think we we got somewhere,
Speaker 1: We got some of the tune of it, you know. Uh.
Speaker 1: That was one thing that came up in the amblets.
Speaker 1: And the other thing that came up was David suggesting
Speaker 1: to me, He said, here, listen, why don't we why
Speaker 1: don't we wear makeup? How was that received? Well? Not well.
Speaker 1: I was okay with it because I thought he meant,
Speaker 1: you probably read this in the book, But I thought
Speaker 1: you meant clown makeup. That was our night, that's our
Speaker 1: naive I was. I thought you meant clown makeup with
Speaker 1: a with a ping pong ball on the nose, types
Speaker 1: in a red nose and a big half moon mouth.
Speaker 1: And I just slid the little glass window that divided
Speaker 1: the driving cat from us, and I put my head
Speaker 1: to and I said, listen, guys, um, Dave's just come
Speaker 1: up with the idea of what about we wear makeup?
Speaker 1: And they and ground the bass player was driving. He
Speaker 1: was much more switched on than me with regard to
Speaker 1: knowing what David meant. And he knew he meant he
Speaker 1: you know, when that women's makeup, you know, so he
Speaker 1: figured that out and I didn't realized that at all,
Speaker 1: and he, I said, out about we were makeup? So
Speaker 1: he he just turned around and said, fuck that idea.
Speaker 1: Vetoed that keeps that killed that straightaway. But the other
Speaker 1: thing that things like that. And when we were talking
Speaker 1: about doing Mars, David said, well, look we can get
Speaker 1: we can get bombs, fireworks and set fireworks off on
Speaker 1: the side of a straight stage when we to make
Speaker 1: it really theatrical, you know. So it was already getting
Speaker 1: on the theatrical kick, you know too, uh to make
Speaker 1: a show of it. We never did that because you know,
Speaker 1: you'd never be allowed to do that, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: on amateur level anyways, start putting fireworks on the stage.
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, I think I read that your
Speaker 1: guitarist Dennis Taylor called you the second loudest band in London,
Speaker 1: and I assume the first B and the Who I
Speaker 1: bet to the fireworks contributed to that. Well, yeah, it
Speaker 1: would have been. We might have just beat the Who
Speaker 1: if we'd have got those guys as well. But we
Speaker 1: know we were very loud, Yeah, and the Who were
Speaker 1: the loudest year. Who were some of your influences besides
Speaker 1: the Who in terms of your music that you were playing, Like,
Speaker 1: take me through your set list. The music we do
Speaker 1: other than David's own would be funny enough. We didn't
Speaker 1: play any Who tunes, That's an odd thing in retrospect
Speaker 1: to think of. But we played the Kinks stuff written
Speaker 1: by Ray Davis, The Kinks, a band called the Yardbirds.
Speaker 1: I think we did one, and by the Pretty Things
Speaker 1: So band do were successful around us at the time,
Speaker 1: we did other people's music. In terms of influence, I suppose,
Speaker 1: really it's hard to think. I suppose you could say
Speaker 1: we weren't purposely following The Who, but I suppose we
Speaker 1: would have been subconsciously influenced by them. Is it true
Speaker 1: that when Pete Townson heard You've got to Have It
Speaker 1: or leaving me. He thought, wait a minute, that one
Speaker 1: of my songs. Well yeah, he felt, yeah, he The
Speaker 1: funny thing is Jordan's. I found Pete Townsend by chance
Speaker 1: yesterday on YouTube and it just came out about the
Speaker 1: first time I met David Bass. I thought, well, I
Speaker 1: know the first time you met David Bowie because I
Speaker 1: was there. But in fact the story he tail was
Speaker 1: quite different, like it often is, you know, people's memories
Speaker 1: very but basically they were we were doing a gig,
Speaker 1: a regular gig that they were going to be like
Speaker 1: the Star Attraction, and we were the supporting band. And
Speaker 1: the afternoon of the gig, we were rehearsing at the
Speaker 1: ball room where we were going to be appearing, and
Speaker 1: the whom Us have arrived and Pete Townsend walked into
Speaker 1: the the hall that we were rehearsing in and we
Speaker 1: immediately recognized who he was, and when we stopped prinish
Speaker 1: the number he started stood down by the front of
Speaker 1: the stage where we were and looked up at David said,
Speaker 1: who's whose music? Whose tune is that? You know? His stuff?
Speaker 1: Is that you? He said mine? He said, well, that's
Speaker 1: the Bloody Shanks. It's just like the stuff I write,
Speaker 1: and that's the first time as I know, as the
Speaker 1: first time they met as far as I know, I mean,
Speaker 1: I sat down and chatted with Pete Townsend after that,
Speaker 1: but as far as I know, that's the first time
Speaker 1: you met Dave. But anyway, that's yeah, he did. He
Speaker 1: saw a similarity in David's writing. Did you notice David
Speaker 1: improving as a as a writer throughout the time that
Speaker 1: you were with him, Yeah, I think so. I think
Speaker 1: just just listening to I mean, there's some demos of
Speaker 1: stuff that, um, there's never they've never come out there.
Speaker 1: They should be coming out like sort of you can
Speaker 1: get them. They're all out there, but not officially, but
Speaker 1: they will be coming out officially sooner or later. But
Speaker 1: you can hear, like the difference between some of those
Speaker 1: demos of the tunes all right, apart from the recording quality,
Speaker 1: you can hear the level is at with his songwriting
Speaker 1: in those compared to say You've got to Habit and
Speaker 1: Baby Loves that way. And then again moving on to
Speaker 1: the final record we made together, the first one he
Speaker 1: ever made with the name Bowie, which is kind of
Speaker 1: thinking about me that again is a bit of a
Speaker 1: leap in the in in his started writing and there
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you'd called it the better quality,
Speaker 1: but anyway, I think he'd moved on a bit when
Speaker 1: he got to that that song. You mentioned the new name.
Speaker 1: You were there to borrow the title of your book
Speaker 1: at the birth of Bowie. Tell me how he came
Speaker 1: to change his name. Yeah, when it was his own idea.
Speaker 1: He may have typed with the idea of changing name
Speaker 1: at some time in his past. I don't know. I've
Speaker 1: read since, but not that we ever discussed. It came
Speaker 1: from our manager. The manager decided that there were too
Speaker 1: many other people in the entertainment business with the name
Speaker 1: David Jones. Um, there was a there was a black
Speaker 1: singer we had over, a very very nice singer, an
Speaker 1: English Johnny Mathis. If you ever remember Johnny Mathis, American,
Speaker 1: the American singer Johnny Mathis. He was like a version
Speaker 1: of him. Um, so his name was David Jones. There
Speaker 1: was also the guy who eventually became the singer in
Speaker 1: the Monkeys, David Jones. He was, but that at that
Speaker 1: time wasn't in the Monkeys. He was a Broadway star
Speaker 1: English guy. So he said, look, there's too many other
Speaker 1: David Jones, You're going to need to change your name.
Speaker 1: And he said, also, I don't the name the lower Third.
Speaker 1: I think it sounds too juvenile. So he said, go
Speaker 1: away and come, you know, come up with a different
Speaker 1: name for you, For Dave, David, you come up with
Speaker 1: a different name, and you know, the rest of you,
Speaker 1: come up with a different name for the band. So
Speaker 1: and the next time we all got together, probably for
Speaker 1: a rehearsal, I would say, the manager was there again
Speaker 1: and he said, right, what what have you come up with?
Speaker 1: So David said, I'm going to call myself Bowie. So
Speaker 1: that just came out like that. It's just like you
Speaker 1: and I are talking now, really, and I thought, oh, Bowie,
Speaker 1: that's right, the Bowie Knife and the Alamo, you know,
Speaker 1: Jim Bowie. That's what I figured. And I came up
Speaker 1: with a name for the band instead of being the
Speaker 1: last third. I said, what about we call ourselves the Toys.
Speaker 1: And the manager said, well, there's already a black American
Speaker 1: vocal group girl group called the Toys. You can't use that.
Speaker 1: So that kind of died of death, and that name.
Speaker 1: We never did change the name from the last third,
Speaker 1: So mind you, I mean in terms of it being
Speaker 1: juven I hadn't moved very far from I've gone back.
Speaker 1: I'd actually gone backwards. So basically we stayed the last
Speaker 1: Thurson and David became Bowie overnight. So the next record
Speaker 1: we made was the first one with the name Bowie
Speaker 1: and the manager of the time was Ralph Horton. How
Speaker 1: did things change when Ralph Horton took over as your manager? Yeah,
Speaker 1: well they got a lot more organized. I will give
Speaker 1: him that. He for one thing, he smartened us up
Speaker 1: because we were just we're in our regular street clothes
Speaker 1: before that. For when we were on stage. Um, we
Speaker 1: would still try and be a little bit different in
Speaker 1: that way we dressed. But basically he shipped us all
Speaker 1: off the Carneby Street. If you heard you've heard of
Speaker 1: Carnaby Street, Oh yeah, Mary Kuant and Lord John and
Speaker 1: yeah you've got it. Yeah, you've got it. So we
Speaker 1: all drove down the Carneval Street in the ambulance and
Speaker 1: he took us into I couldn't name the shops now,
Speaker 1: but it was probably one of those you mentioned, and
Speaker 1: he kitted us out in these slacks, these trousers, sort
Speaker 1: of blue trousers and blue her and bone shirts, and
Speaker 1: he bought David a jacket tweet jacket, and we had
Speaker 1: these really strange shoes. You can see them in some
Speaker 1: of the E M I publicity photos. They're like rope
Speaker 1: souls with cool dry tops. Are really strange shoes but different,
Speaker 1: you know, which was the whole idea. And basically we
Speaker 1: were smartened up by him. And he also started to
Speaker 1: get us some work because we were working but very sparse,
Speaker 1: you know. And David and I were always out looking
Speaker 1: dying around the agencies in Oxford Street and charing Cross
Speaker 1: Row trying to get work. But this guy at you
Speaker 1: banished work and he got us signed up to the
Speaker 1: Marquee Club because they they became our agents. The Marquee
Speaker 1: Agency became our agents, and so we worked at the
Speaker 1: Marquee Club every week. It sounds like, at least from
Speaker 1: what I've read, that that he also sold the seeds
Speaker 1: of some descent in the group by sort of pushing
Speaker 1: David further to the front and giving him top billing
Speaker 1: and even sort of doating on him. I mean, was
Speaker 1: that did that add some tensions in the group? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I did. I mean that that That's exactly you've waded
Speaker 1: it up perfectly basically, we could. It gradually started to change.
Speaker 1: It didn't happen all at once, but started to change
Speaker 1: where Um, David would be awful lot of the time
Speaker 1: with Ralph, you know, um, and in the end it
Speaker 1: was like he would be traveling separate from us. He
Speaker 1: would be traveling because Ralph would particularly when we did
Speaker 1: our gigs down in the South Coast in the summer
Speaker 1: each weekend m the region, we'd all travel everywhere in
Speaker 1: the ambulance together. But suddenly because we had Ralph with
Speaker 1: this Ralph he would drive down there and David would
Speaker 1: go with him and his jaguar, trading the ambulance for
Speaker 1: the jaguar. Yeah, not much competition. It's been said that
Speaker 1: Ralph had strong feelings for David that some would even
Speaker 1: called romantic. Was that something that the rest of the
Speaker 1: band picked up on? Yeah, yeah we did. Um, yeah
Speaker 1: we did. And because it eventually came out that there
Speaker 1: was something going on between them, you know, which was
Speaker 1: completely unheard of for us at the time, and so
Speaker 1: it kind of showed why there was this division guying
Speaker 1: on gradually. It didn't happened overnight, but gradually there was
Speaker 1: a division guying on and it was David was off
Speaker 1: with Ralph quite a lot of the time. It was also,
Speaker 1: from what I understand, fairly aggressive in his pursuit of
Speaker 1: women as well as that fair to say, Oh sure,
Speaker 1: I mean he was you know, I mean, for all
Speaker 1: intents and purposes, he was heterosexual and was completely and
Speaker 1: always was forever after from what I now learned, the
Speaker 1: same as he was when he was with us. Uh.
Speaker 1: You know, no woman was safe. Really. I don't mean
Speaker 1: that he would. He would have been charmed itself, you know.
Speaker 1: So it wasn't you know, he wasn't he wasn't a
Speaker 1: predator or anything like that. But I mean just girls
Speaker 1: went for him, you know, So he took advantage, you
Speaker 1: know what I mean. He was a women girls found
Speaker 1: him attractive, so he took advantage of it. And in fact,
Speaker 1: there was a guy, uh who managed another band we
Speaker 1: used to work with now and again, and he was
Speaker 1: kind of be mused by David and he said, and
Speaker 1: I know the gigs we were at with this this guy,
Speaker 1: this this band, this guy managed. He come out to
Speaker 1: me said, you know other girls like him, don't you
Speaker 1: said no, he said, they want to take him home
Speaker 1: and feed him There's a a very sort of famous
Speaker 1: audition that the lower third had with the BBC, which
Speaker 1: is kind kind of gone down into Bowie legend where
Speaker 1: because you were rejected and the selection panel was really
Speaker 1: rather vicious to David. They said, you know, an out
Speaker 1: of tune singer, devoid of personality. Did that rejection sting
Speaker 1: at all for him? And we? Did he ever seem
Speaker 1: discouraged around you? Or was he always really supremely confident? Um?
Speaker 1: I would say it must have, not just a bit,
Speaker 1: But I don't remember any kind of as we of
Speaker 1: him being down or of being really down about it.
Speaker 1: I think he was. Yeah. I think you're right about
Speaker 1: him being supremely confident. Yeah he was. He was on
Speaker 1: a mission, if you know what I mean. So that
Speaker 1: didn't you know, you're by reading that you think, oh,
Speaker 1: that would have knocked anybody for six But now I
Speaker 1: don't remember that that it really Claudis at all. We
Speaker 1: just got on with it. Really. Now, how did the
Speaker 1: group come to an end? I know there was a
Speaker 1: great showdown at the Brahmmel Club in David's hometown. He
Speaker 1: wanted to be the hometown hero, but it didn't quite
Speaker 1: work out like that. Yeah, well, um, and well, you
Speaker 1: know he was already you've already gotten onto the way
Speaker 1: Ralph was kind of he was, I believe he was.
Speaker 1: You know, he was seeing David as a solo artist really,
Speaker 1: which is of course absolutely spot on him, right. But
Speaker 1: of course we didn't see it that way at the
Speaker 1: time because we were a four piece band who were
Speaker 1: going to make it as a four piece, So you know,
Speaker 1: it didn't didn't didn't feel right to us that he
Speaker 1: was being singled out. But anyway, in retrospect, it was
Speaker 1: the obvious thing to happen, but not when you're part
Speaker 1: of it, you know. So basically he started to divide
Speaker 1: us up. Be devices. Devices is the word I'm looking for.
Speaker 1: And one of the ways he did that was one
Speaker 1: Saturday afternoon. We were doing our Saturday gig at the
Speaker 1: Marquee and we were due to play at the Brummel
Speaker 1: Club that night, and Ralph said to us, by the way, boys,
Speaker 1: you won't be getting paid tonight. I mean, we got
Speaker 1: very little money as it was, to be honest, we
Speaker 1: was very very low. We had very little money from
Speaker 1: the market here anywhere else. So anyway, we said, well,
Speaker 1: what do you mean He said, well, I need the
Speaker 1: money to play, pay for publicity. So I really felt
Speaker 1: bad for the two guys I've mentioned from tent because
Speaker 1: they were um, basically living in the ambulance for that
Speaker 1: time because they couldn't afford to pay rent anywhere, because well,
Speaker 1: I mean, we always just sleep in the ambulance a lot,
Speaker 1: but these guys ended up living in the ambulance, and
Speaker 1: so I thought that's not good because how are they
Speaker 1: going to eat, you know, and in mind about paying rent.
Speaker 1: Whereas David and I went home to our parents. Uh,
Speaker 1: so we were okay from that point of view. As
Speaker 1: it turned out, by a complete chance, my father had
Speaker 1: come to see us that day, um, because it met David.
Speaker 1: David had been to my house and so on with
Speaker 1: the other guys, and so he'd come to the to
Speaker 1: the gig that day. So we told him we've just
Speaker 1: been told we're not going to get paced. You well,
Speaker 1: don't put up with that. Tell him if it's no pay,
Speaker 1: it's no play. So that gave us, that emboldened us,
Speaker 1: and we kind of decided so that's what would happened.
Speaker 1: So we we um, we turned up for the gig
Speaker 1: that night. But again, as I mentioned, David was with Ralph.
Speaker 1: Hed turned up with Off in his Jaguar and we
Speaker 1: were in the ambulance. And when we got there and
Speaker 1: we kind of all got out of our vehicles and
Speaker 1: could see each other to speak to we said, so,
Speaker 1: what's happening tonight, Ralpha? You know we we you said
Speaker 1: if we weren't going to get paid, but we obviously
Speaker 1: do want to get paid. So said, well, no, you're
Speaker 1: not going to get paid. So we said, well, if
Speaker 1: you're not paying, if you're not going to give you
Speaker 1: get us to give us the money that we're getting paid,
Speaker 1: we're not going to play. So he just said, okay,
Speaker 1: that's it then, or no, I'm not going to pay us.
Speaker 1: So we stid, well, that's it then. So it kind
Speaker 1: of just completely broke down straight away. That was There
Speaker 1: was no more negotiation or pleading on either side. So
Speaker 1: that was it. So we immediately started loading our gearback up,
Speaker 1: and he wanted some of the equipment that he paid for. Um,
Speaker 1: we divided that up and that was the end of
Speaker 1: the band. What what was David doing all of this?
Speaker 1: Was he trying to to bargain with you or talk
Speaker 1: to Ralph? Or was he just kind of off to
Speaker 1: the side, trying to make sense of it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: he was off to the side. He was there was
Speaker 1: there was this is all in a car park, and
Speaker 1: there was at the edge of the car park there's
Speaker 1: a little tiny low wall, brick wall. David was walking
Speaker 1: up and down that, you know, like a child wild
Speaker 1: walk on the wall with their arms out like a
Speaker 1: typewrote walker. Yeah. So if you can get that image
Speaker 1: in your mind, that was David up and down that
Speaker 1: wall without saying anything. Um, Dennis teacup Reckncy. David was crying,
Speaker 1: but I didn't see that. Um, he did have a
Speaker 1: reputation of crying when things went wrong in bands. I've
Speaker 1: heard since with other bands. If he was leaving one
Speaker 1: he would get upset, but he always still went and
Speaker 1: left it. You know. That's that's any what I've heard
Speaker 1: since in terms of our experience. And I didn't see
Speaker 1: him cry, but Dennis said he thought he saw him crying.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so he was just doing that basically, and um,
Speaker 1: when it was obvious that no, it wasn't going to
Speaker 1: go any further, I just went up to him, you know,
Speaker 1: when he got off the wall, and what did a
Speaker 1: shaky stand, but he wouldn't. He just kind of shied
Speaker 1: away from that, which was a shame, you know, And
Speaker 1: that was it. We all just went out of different ways.
Speaker 1: Did you get to see him again after that? Yeah?
Speaker 1: I did. Uh. He he got another band together on
Speaker 1: a completely different footing to the one with the Last Third,
Speaker 1: because bearing in mind he actually was auditioned and joined
Speaker 1: the Lower Third as you know, to mean as a singer,
Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't David Jones and he's backing band.
Speaker 1: It was a band called Lower Third who needed a
Speaker 1: singer and they took on a guy called David Jones.
Speaker 1: David being David, he got his name to the front
Speaker 1: and so it became David Jones in the Last Third.
Speaker 1: And but he was just he was I mean, he
Speaker 1: had a huge amount of influence because he had a
Speaker 1: lot of contacts and his own songs, so you know,
Speaker 1: he was quite you know, he was like the number
Speaker 1: one guy. But he was a part of the band.
Speaker 1: With the next band he he advertised for. They were
Speaker 1: advertised the advertised for a backing band. So it was
Speaker 1: quite a distinct relationship between a singer who was the
Speaker 1: main man and and and a group of guys who
Speaker 1: were going to back him, you know, And I went
Speaker 1: up to the Marquee. I used to go to the
Speaker 1: Marquis still just a network to find another band, you know.
Speaker 1: And he was up on the stage setting up, and
Speaker 1: I went up from the stage and we said and
Speaker 1: shook hands and that was that kind of felt a
Speaker 1: lot better then. It was a nice way to leave
Speaker 1: off you. Yeah. Yeah, when did you first realize he'd
Speaker 1: evolved into sort of David Bowie's superstar? Was it hearing
Speaker 1: space ardity? I would say Space obviously was a big
Speaker 1: leap forward for me in terms of my take on him. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that was amazement. I heard that. I thought, my god,
Speaker 1: how does he come up with that? That was that
Speaker 1: was the big turning point for the way I listened,
Speaker 1: you know, kind of appreciated him. Is there an enduring
Speaker 1: memory that you have that sums up your seven months together,
Speaker 1: like when you think of him, when you think of
Speaker 1: your time in the lower third, is there just a
Speaker 1: snapshot that comes to mind? Yeah? I mean it's a
Speaker 1: good question that because yeah, there were in dearing moments
Speaker 1: he was it was a kind of really caring guy. Um,
Speaker 1: he quite my girlfriend at the time he quite liked,
Speaker 1: which I suppose it goes without saying um, and he
Speaker 1: would he would kind of, he would kind of fight
Speaker 1: a corner. It was really much. Job didn't say much
Speaker 1: for me. Once when we were at the Marquee Club
Speaker 1: rehearsing where we used to rehearse on the um one
Speaker 1: of the days we'd used it to rehearse before we
Speaker 1: did a gig in the night in the evening Friday
Speaker 1: afternoon probably, and the guy owned it. There was a
Speaker 1: lot of people used to what you'd call hangers on.
Speaker 1: People were coming was kind of listening and it got
Speaker 1: a bit crowded in. The guy I owned it said,
Speaker 1: come on, everybody who's not supposed to be eager to leave,
Speaker 1: you know, So he started holding his arms out and
Speaker 1: corrawling people out. Well again, my girlfriend was standing there
Speaker 1: because she was always around with us, and as soon
Speaker 1: as he started to go over to her, day it's
Speaker 1: not me, mind you, David said, listen, leave her alone.
Speaker 1: That's our that's our drama's fiance. The guy listened to him,
Speaker 1: and he went up to her and gave her a
Speaker 1: kiss on the cheek and in a wink to me
Speaker 1: and I thought were bloody always got me engaged. Here
Speaker 1: I'm not engaged. So that was like, so he's what
Speaker 1: I would call his caring side. You know. He also
Speaker 1: talked about, um, you know, other realms of reality, like
Speaker 1: something called a fourth dimension. Don't ask me what it
Speaker 1: was because I can't remember to explain it now. But
Speaker 1: he was he was very, very charming, very personal, but
Speaker 1: very determined, you know, very quite a steely approach to
Speaker 1: his future, you know, and getting on. Yeah, like you
Speaker 1: said earlier, it sounds like he had a destination that
Speaker 1: he knew he was heading towards and he was going
Speaker 1: to get there exactly. And I mean the thing is
Speaker 1: where when we were breaking up the band and everything else,
Speaker 1: it seemed, you know, as if it was all it
Speaker 1: happened on the on the spur of the moment, almost,
Speaker 1: But in fact I found out since that the manager
Speaker 1: was already already advertising for some backing musicians to part
Speaker 1: David from us, to put him in this new situation
Speaker 1: he and you probably know that the big famous situation
Speaker 1: when he played the final Ziggy Gig Ziggy Stardust Gig
Speaker 1: at the Hammersmith Odeon I think it's called, where he
Speaker 1: announced on stage that it was the that was the
Speaker 1: last gig of Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars
Speaker 1: The Spiders. The band had no idea that that was happening.
Speaker 1: Did you know about that one. I had heard a
Speaker 1: little bit about that, Yeah, adds, I mean, yeah, he's
Speaker 1: definitely I guess thinking several steps ahead. I guess there's
Speaker 1: a way to generously put it. Yeah. Yeah, So I
Speaker 1: think I think we got off a bit lighter than
Speaker 1: lady to be on stage and get getting getting fired
Speaker 1: on stage, because that's basically what was happening. Okay, guys,
Speaker 1: that's it with you. But you know, you've got a
Speaker 1: massive audience. And and I was talking to the dramma
Speaker 1: Woody woodman Z, you know those guys. Oh yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I met him when we when we went to a
Speaker 1: private viewing of the film we were all in called
Speaker 1: Finding Fame. Well, we were all in that, as you
Speaker 1: may or may not remember, and we had the BBC
Speaker 1: put on a private showing that. So all the people
Speaker 1: or most of the people who are in it, uh
Speaker 1: came to that, you know. So I met Woody then
Speaker 1: and I got talking to him and said about the
Speaker 1: way Dave operated, And I said, well, you know that
Speaker 1: happened to ask us it, but I think it was
Speaker 1: worse for you. Off the Record is a production of
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