1 00:00:14,916 --> 00:00:24,276 Speaker 1: Pushkin Hey, Slight Changers, maya here. My good friend doctor 2 00:00:24,356 --> 00:00:27,236 Speaker 1: Laurie Santos, hosts of The Happiness Lab, asked me to 3 00:00:27,316 --> 00:00:29,356 Speaker 1: join her on her show recently to do a live 4 00:00:29,436 --> 00:00:32,756 Speaker 1: episode about the science of happiness and change. It was 5 00:00:32,796 --> 00:00:35,836 Speaker 1: a really fun conversation with some listener questions at the end, 6 00:00:36,196 --> 00:00:37,996 Speaker 1: and I wanted to share it with you all here 7 00:00:38,636 --> 00:00:41,276 Speaker 1: and some very exciting news. Will be back in your 8 00:00:41,276 --> 00:00:43,676 Speaker 1: feed with brand new episodes of A Slight Change of 9 00:00:43,716 --> 00:00:49,676 Speaker 1: Plants every Monday starting October eleventh. See you soon. One 10 00:00:49,716 --> 00:00:52,036 Speaker 1: of my favorite parts of hosting this podcast is getting 11 00:00:52,036 --> 00:00:54,396 Speaker 1: so many of your questions about how to stay happy. 12 00:00:54,876 --> 00:00:56,716 Speaker 1: And one of the kinds of questions I keep getting 13 00:00:56,756 --> 00:01:00,556 Speaker 1: over and over again, especially right now, is about happiness 14 00:01:00,596 --> 00:01:03,476 Speaker 1: and change. Things like how can we make changes that 15 00:01:03,556 --> 00:01:06,356 Speaker 1: actually stick, or how can we stay happy through hard 16 00:01:06,396 --> 00:01:08,916 Speaker 1: life changes that come our way, or how can we 17 00:01:08,956 --> 00:01:11,676 Speaker 1: do with the collective happiness changes that are happening in 18 00:01:11,676 --> 00:01:13,836 Speaker 1: this transformative time that we're all going through in the 19 00:01:13,876 --> 00:01:16,796 Speaker 1: midst of this pandemic. And so with all these questions, 20 00:01:16,876 --> 00:01:18,436 Speaker 1: I thought I would be best if I called in 21 00:01:18,476 --> 00:01:21,556 Speaker 1: an expert on change for this special bonus episode, and 22 00:01:21,556 --> 00:01:24,396 Speaker 1: so I'm super excited to welcome back behavior Change Expert, 23 00:01:24,396 --> 00:01:27,316 Speaker 1: extraordinary host of one of my favorite new podcasts, A 24 00:01:27,356 --> 00:01:31,276 Speaker 1: Slight Change of Plans, and my former student, Maya Schunker. 25 00:01:31,676 --> 00:01:33,836 Speaker 1: It's so much fun to be Helar. Great to see you. 26 00:01:35,556 --> 00:01:37,876 Speaker 1: So you are back on the Happiness Lab a bit 27 00:01:37,876 --> 00:01:40,076 Speaker 1: ago before, and the last time you were here on 28 00:01:40,076 --> 00:01:42,316 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab, we talked briefly about how you get 29 00:01:42,356 --> 00:01:45,516 Speaker 1: interested in the psychology of change, and so I wonder 30 00:01:45,596 --> 00:01:48,276 Speaker 1: if you'd quickly share that story again for me. I 31 00:01:48,276 --> 00:01:50,956 Speaker 1: think it'll help listeners really understand how you get interested 32 00:01:51,116 --> 00:01:54,356 Speaker 1: in the kind of like studying behavior change and how 33 00:01:54,396 --> 00:01:57,036 Speaker 1: it's really affected you personally. So, yeah, so how did 34 00:01:57,076 --> 00:01:59,156 Speaker 1: you get interested in change? Yeah? I definitely had a 35 00:01:59,236 --> 00:02:03,076 Speaker 1: very formative experience with change. When I was six years old, 36 00:02:03,076 --> 00:02:06,356 Speaker 1: I started playing the violin and I became so passionate 37 00:02:06,676 --> 00:02:09,916 Speaker 1: about the instrument and it very quickly my goal to 38 00:02:09,996 --> 00:02:13,516 Speaker 1: become a professional violinist. And so when I was nine 39 00:02:13,596 --> 00:02:16,276 Speaker 1: years old, I started studying at the Juilliard School of 40 00:02:16,356 --> 00:02:19,476 Speaker 1: Music in New York. And when I was in high school. 41 00:02:19,756 --> 00:02:22,396 Speaker 1: It's a pearlman who's considered, you know, one of the 42 00:02:22,396 --> 00:02:24,756 Speaker 1: greatest violinists of our time asked me to be his 43 00:02:24,836 --> 00:02:27,716 Speaker 1: private violin student, and so I was on the speed 44 00:02:27,716 --> 00:02:32,196 Speaker 1: train Laurie to becoming hopefully a professional violinist. And I 45 00:02:32,236 --> 00:02:34,756 Speaker 1: would say all of my eggs were in that basket. 46 00:02:35,236 --> 00:02:39,316 Speaker 1: I felt like my identity was first and foremost a violinist. 47 00:02:39,996 --> 00:02:43,476 Speaker 1: And then when I was fifteen, I experienced a sudden 48 00:02:43,556 --> 00:02:47,316 Speaker 1: hand injury that fully derailed my career and basically ended 49 00:02:47,316 --> 00:02:51,556 Speaker 1: it overnight, and I was forced to reassess who I was. 50 00:02:51,836 --> 00:02:54,756 Speaker 1: You know, up until that point, I had only seen 51 00:02:54,796 --> 00:02:56,556 Speaker 1: myself as a violinist. Like if you had asked me 52 00:02:56,596 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 1: who I was at that point, I would have said, 53 00:02:57,996 --> 00:03:00,436 Speaker 1: first that I was a violinist, and second that I 54 00:03:00,476 --> 00:03:03,676 Speaker 1: was Maya. And I just didn't know where to go 55 00:03:03,796 --> 00:03:06,756 Speaker 1: from there because it felt like such a fixed part 56 00:03:06,756 --> 00:03:10,316 Speaker 1: of who I was. And there's interesting searching cognitive science 57 00:03:10,356 --> 00:03:13,716 Speaker 1: that talks about this phenomenon. It's called identity foreclosure, and 58 00:03:13,756 --> 00:03:17,276 Speaker 1: it refers to the idea that in adolescence, certainly, but 59 00:03:17,316 --> 00:03:20,116 Speaker 1: it can carry through into adulthood, we can get very 60 00:03:20,236 --> 00:03:24,996 Speaker 1: settled in a very specific identity, and the consequence of 61 00:03:25,036 --> 00:03:28,636 Speaker 1: that is it prevents us from having an exploratory frame 62 00:03:28,636 --> 00:03:33,156 Speaker 1: of mind, from allowing ourselves to inhabit other spaces, other identities, 63 00:03:33,156 --> 00:03:37,516 Speaker 1: other roles, and to pursue other passions. And I absolutely 64 00:03:37,556 --> 00:03:41,076 Speaker 1: fell prey to identity foreclosure. It felt like I fully 65 00:03:41,116 --> 00:03:43,836 Speaker 1: lost myself in the process. And you know, we can 66 00:03:43,836 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 1: talk more about how my psychology has changed over this 67 00:03:47,396 --> 00:03:50,196 Speaker 1: whole period of time, but the biggest lesson that I 68 00:03:50,276 --> 00:03:52,476 Speaker 1: learned from that whole experience is that I had to 69 00:03:52,476 --> 00:03:56,356 Speaker 1: see my identity as more malleable, as extending beyond any 70 00:03:56,436 --> 00:03:59,876 Speaker 1: specific pursuit. And so this is so important. One of 71 00:03:59,876 --> 00:04:01,756 Speaker 1: the reasons I love your story have changed so much. 72 00:04:01,756 --> 00:04:03,316 Speaker 1: I mean, one reason I love your story of changes 73 00:04:03,356 --> 00:04:04,676 Speaker 1: that it brought you to me. It brought you to 74 00:04:04,756 --> 00:04:06,476 Speaker 1: my lab, and that's how we got to know each other. 75 00:04:07,036 --> 00:04:10,316 Speaker 1: But it also shows just so many of these misconceptions 76 00:04:10,316 --> 00:04:13,996 Speaker 1: that we have about identity and change and change and happiness. Right, 77 00:04:14,676 --> 00:04:16,636 Speaker 1: you know, all of my happiness Lab listeners know that 78 00:04:16,636 --> 00:04:19,076 Speaker 1: I'm constantly talking about the ways that our minds lie 79 00:04:19,116 --> 00:04:20,956 Speaker 1: to us in terms of the kinds of things that 80 00:04:20,996 --> 00:04:23,516 Speaker 1: make us happy. And I think the kind of misconception 81 00:04:23,556 --> 00:04:26,356 Speaker 1: you're talking about is important. This idea that our identity 82 00:04:26,996 --> 00:04:30,116 Speaker 1: is fixed. It fits with what psychologist Dan Gilbert talks 83 00:04:30,156 --> 00:04:33,876 Speaker 1: about with an illusion known as the end of history illusion. 84 00:04:34,196 --> 00:04:35,956 Speaker 1: The deal is, if you ask people, hey, how much 85 00:04:35,996 --> 00:04:37,316 Speaker 1: do you think you're going to change in the next 86 00:04:37,356 --> 00:04:41,036 Speaker 1: ten years, most people say, well, you know, not so much, right, Like, 87 00:04:41,076 --> 00:04:43,356 Speaker 1: my core identity is sort of fixed, my history has 88 00:04:43,436 --> 00:04:45,996 Speaker 1: kind of ended. But if you ask people how much 89 00:04:46,236 --> 00:04:48,996 Speaker 1: have you changed, like as of the last ten years, 90 00:04:49,036 --> 00:04:50,916 Speaker 1: like in the last decade, how much of you change? 91 00:04:50,956 --> 00:04:54,676 Speaker 1: People usually say a lot. And so the funny thing 92 00:04:54,716 --> 00:04:56,876 Speaker 1: is we tend not to notice our own changes. We 93 00:04:56,916 --> 00:04:59,716 Speaker 1: tend to have this belief that we're like stopped definitely, 94 00:04:59,916 --> 00:05:02,276 Speaker 1: But the research really shows that we're that we're kind 95 00:05:02,276 --> 00:05:05,356 Speaker 1: of more malleable than we think. And the other reason 96 00:05:05,396 --> 00:05:07,956 Speaker 1: I love this story is it shows a different misconception 97 00:05:07,996 --> 00:05:11,036 Speaker 1: about the mind that I think is incredibly powerful, which 98 00:05:11,076 --> 00:05:14,636 Speaker 1: is this idea about the nature of identity change, like 99 00:05:14,756 --> 00:05:17,756 Speaker 1: how it works right. You know, there's this sense that 100 00:05:17,756 --> 00:05:20,196 Speaker 1: people think you have to have this like crazy brain 101 00:05:20,276 --> 00:05:24,796 Speaker 1: altering experience to experience some change that will change your identity. 102 00:05:24,836 --> 00:05:27,236 Speaker 1: I know on your podcast you've talked to people who've 103 00:05:27,276 --> 00:05:30,436 Speaker 1: looked at these changes in the context of like psychedelic experiences, 104 00:05:30,476 --> 00:05:34,476 Speaker 1: that's right, Yeah, absolutely yeah. I mean, first of all, 105 00:05:34,476 --> 00:05:37,356 Speaker 1: on the point of the end of history illusion, absolutely, 106 00:05:37,396 --> 00:05:40,676 Speaker 1: I think we can all relate to the experience of 107 00:05:41,356 --> 00:05:44,436 Speaker 1: hearing a clip of you talking when you're you know, teenager, 108 00:05:44,556 --> 00:05:46,276 Speaker 1: or when you're in your twenties, or seeing a picture 109 00:05:46,276 --> 00:05:49,156 Speaker 1: and thinking, oh my god, how is that me? I 110 00:05:49,196 --> 00:05:52,356 Speaker 1: don't even relate to this person? And then you suddenly realize, 111 00:05:52,636 --> 00:05:55,196 Speaker 1: am I going to think this way about myself right now? 112 00:05:55,236 --> 00:05:58,596 Speaker 1: In ten years? And that inevitably is the case, right, 113 00:05:58,636 --> 00:06:02,276 Speaker 1: We can feel so much distance between our current cells 114 00:06:02,276 --> 00:06:04,396 Speaker 1: and our past cells, but like you said, in real time, 115 00:06:04,436 --> 00:06:07,756 Speaker 1: we always underestimate how much change and how much growth 116 00:06:07,756 --> 00:06:10,996 Speaker 1: will happen in the year ahead. And you're absolutely right 117 00:06:11,036 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 1: on the topic of psychedelics. I mean, I think what's 118 00:06:13,716 --> 00:06:17,036 Speaker 1: so interesting is that as humans we are both averse 119 00:06:17,156 --> 00:06:19,596 Speaker 1: to change, we're scared by it, but then we also 120 00:06:19,796 --> 00:06:22,236 Speaker 1: seek it out in these really profound ways, which is 121 00:06:22,236 --> 00:06:26,476 Speaker 1: why we've seen a surge and interest in doing psychedelics. 122 00:06:26,476 --> 00:06:28,436 Speaker 1: And you know, there's a lot of medical research going 123 00:06:28,476 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 1: on and how psychedelics can help people. I think the 124 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:33,236 Speaker 1: reassuring thing for those of us who don't want to 125 00:06:33,236 --> 00:06:37,476 Speaker 1: do psychedelics, myself included, is that you can achieve profound 126 00:06:37,596 --> 00:06:41,076 Speaker 1: change through other means in your life. I mean, the 127 00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:44,276 Speaker 1: first way is that you can understand that it is 128 00:06:44,316 --> 00:06:48,436 Speaker 1: absolutely a misconception that our personality stop changing after the 129 00:06:48,476 --> 00:06:51,436 Speaker 1: age of thirty. This is a finding that's just floating 130 00:06:51,436 --> 00:06:54,756 Speaker 1: around out there, but it's since been disproven through large studies, 131 00:06:55,076 --> 00:06:58,676 Speaker 1: and what they find is that personality traits they continue 132 00:06:58,716 --> 00:07:02,516 Speaker 1: to change gradually and systematically throughout the course of your life, 133 00:07:02,556 --> 00:07:07,436 Speaker 1: and that things like conscientiousness and agreeableness and other key 134 00:07:07,476 --> 00:07:12,156 Speaker 1: personality traits increase as you get older. Traits like neuroticism 135 00:07:12,316 --> 00:07:15,716 Speaker 1: decrease as you get older, which is good, is great, 136 00:07:15,876 --> 00:07:19,556 Speaker 1: and it can signal right that their maturity is increasing. 137 00:07:19,556 --> 00:07:24,116 Speaker 1: And I always have found it so promising that naturally, right, 138 00:07:24,156 --> 00:07:26,516 Speaker 1: we might become better versions of ourselves just through the 139 00:07:26,596 --> 00:07:29,876 Speaker 1: natural aging process. That's already very reassuring, I think. And 140 00:07:29,916 --> 00:07:31,876 Speaker 1: then we also know, and you can talk more about this, 141 00:07:31,956 --> 00:07:36,796 Speaker 1: but transformative experiences can alter us in ways that rival, 142 00:07:37,156 --> 00:07:39,596 Speaker 1: you know, the best version of a psychedelic experience, and 143 00:07:39,636 --> 00:07:43,876 Speaker 1: we can actually grow profoundly even from traumatic experiences. Yeah, 144 00:07:43,916 --> 00:07:45,876 Speaker 1: I want to kind of talk more about this idea 145 00:07:45,876 --> 00:07:48,956 Speaker 1: of transformative experiences because I find it so profound. Right, 146 00:07:49,196 --> 00:07:51,636 Speaker 1: you know, the personality changes you were just talking about 147 00:07:51,676 --> 00:07:53,796 Speaker 1: are really gradual, you know, the kind of thing we 148 00:07:53,916 --> 00:07:56,676 Speaker 1: might not even notice unless we were carefully sampling you know, 149 00:07:56,676 --> 00:08:00,996 Speaker 1: what happened to our agreeableness or neuroticism. But transformative experiences 150 00:08:01,196 --> 00:08:02,836 Speaker 1: is a concept that has been developed by one of 151 00:08:02,836 --> 00:08:05,756 Speaker 1: my colleagues here at Yale, Laurie Paul, the philosopher. You know, 152 00:08:05,796 --> 00:08:09,076 Speaker 1: she talks about these moments where you have like profound 153 00:08:09,316 --> 00:08:12,596 Speaker 1: in transformative change in so many aspects of your identity, 154 00:08:12,636 --> 00:08:15,676 Speaker 1: like what you think of as your identity, your preferences, 155 00:08:15,836 --> 00:08:18,196 Speaker 1: what you want out of life, what you consider important 156 00:08:18,196 --> 00:08:20,836 Speaker 1: in life, and they happen at these kind of like 157 00:08:21,316 --> 00:08:25,556 Speaker 1: moments that are big but also pretty regular, pretty mundane. Right, 158 00:08:25,596 --> 00:08:28,116 Speaker 1: So going to college, you know, as you know, probably 159 00:08:28,156 --> 00:08:30,716 Speaker 1: may I watch you like, yeah, this transformer experience. Right, 160 00:08:30,716 --> 00:08:32,916 Speaker 1: You're a different person after you go to college than not, right, 161 00:08:32,996 --> 00:08:36,476 Speaker 1: getting married, having a baby, switching a job, right, all 162 00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:39,356 Speaker 1: of these things are cases where you just like kind 163 00:08:39,356 --> 00:08:41,956 Speaker 1: of change your preferences. And one of the things that 164 00:08:42,036 --> 00:08:44,156 Speaker 1: Laurie Paul talks about, which is I think pretty cool 165 00:08:44,356 --> 00:08:46,716 Speaker 1: is that you know, before you make the change, you 166 00:08:46,796 --> 00:08:49,916 Speaker 1: might not know what those preferences are. Right If I ask, 167 00:08:50,116 --> 00:08:52,636 Speaker 1: like Violin playing maya, you know, like do you like 168 00:08:52,716 --> 00:08:56,076 Speaker 1: cognitive science? Like, you know, do you want to run experiments? 169 00:08:56,116 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 1: Do you want to have a podcast? Like? It might 170 00:08:57,916 --> 00:09:00,116 Speaker 1: not even those questions might not even have made sense 171 00:09:00,156 --> 00:09:02,236 Speaker 1: to you. Right, You know, the same thing like before 172 00:09:02,236 --> 00:09:03,996 Speaker 1: you get married, you know, what what will you think 173 00:09:03,996 --> 00:09:06,156 Speaker 1: of about other people? You know what your preferences for 174 00:09:06,196 --> 00:09:08,436 Speaker 1: what you do on a weekend look like? Right, you 175 00:09:08,516 --> 00:09:11,876 Speaker 1: just can't expect what's going to happen afterwards. But then 176 00:09:11,916 --> 00:09:15,836 Speaker 1: after this life change, preferences are different, your biases are different, 177 00:09:15,916 --> 00:09:18,476 Speaker 1: You're just a different person. The crazy thing is, these 178 00:09:18,516 --> 00:09:21,476 Speaker 1: transformative experiences happen to us all the time, and it's 179 00:09:21,476 --> 00:09:23,156 Speaker 1: the kind of thing you've seen on your show A 180 00:09:23,196 --> 00:09:25,836 Speaker 1: bunch right, absolutely, And I would add to that, in 181 00:09:25,876 --> 00:09:29,476 Speaker 1: addition to going to college, marriage, those sorts of things 182 00:09:29,476 --> 00:09:33,276 Speaker 1: constituting these big moments, negative experiences too can lead to 183 00:09:33,276 --> 00:09:36,196 Speaker 1: the same results. And so I would say to listeners 184 00:09:36,236 --> 00:09:38,596 Speaker 1: of this, even if it's a negative change, even if 185 00:09:38,636 --> 00:09:41,916 Speaker 1: you're perceiving as a negative change, you can still emerge 186 00:09:41,916 --> 00:09:45,716 Speaker 1: with some of these profound changes. And to your point, Laurie, absolutely, 187 00:09:45,756 --> 00:09:48,276 Speaker 1: I mean I think you and I both studying this field. 188 00:09:48,316 --> 00:09:50,556 Speaker 1: No all the time that our mind plays tricks on us, 189 00:09:50,596 --> 00:09:54,236 Speaker 1: and we never have a full understanding of who we 190 00:09:54,276 --> 00:09:56,756 Speaker 1: are at any given moment in time, right, because in 191 00:09:56,796 --> 00:09:59,596 Speaker 1: the face of a change, I'm predicting how I'm going 192 00:09:59,636 --> 00:10:02,796 Speaker 1: to respond based on only the data points I have 193 00:10:02,836 --> 00:10:05,636 Speaker 1: about myself up until that point in time, Right, I 194 00:10:05,676 --> 00:10:08,836 Speaker 1: don't know all these other parts of my personality that 195 00:10:08,836 --> 00:10:11,276 Speaker 1: I not have tapped into, or all these other aspects 196 00:10:11,276 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 1: of my resilience that I might not have tapped into 197 00:10:13,476 --> 00:10:15,996 Speaker 1: until that moment appeared. I think that's why, in part, 198 00:10:16,036 --> 00:10:19,316 Speaker 1: we're bad cognitive forecasters, because we're working with limited data 199 00:10:19,356 --> 00:10:22,276 Speaker 1: on ourselves, and sometimes these change moments can really help 200 00:10:22,316 --> 00:10:26,476 Speaker 1: us appreciate the full range of reactions and emotions that 201 00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:28,596 Speaker 1: we can experience in the face of a change. With 202 00:10:28,636 --> 00:10:31,316 Speaker 1: respect to a slight change of plans, I have found 203 00:10:31,556 --> 00:10:35,796 Speaker 1: reliably that people don't know actually what to expect in 204 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:38,876 Speaker 1: the face of a change. And in advance of this podcast, 205 00:10:38,916 --> 00:10:40,676 Speaker 1: I think if someone came to me and said, MAYA, 206 00:10:40,716 --> 00:10:42,916 Speaker 1: what would you what would advice would you give to 207 00:10:42,956 --> 00:10:45,516 Speaker 1: someone who's going through a change? I would have said, well, 208 00:10:45,556 --> 00:10:48,116 Speaker 1: I would give different advice to someone based on whether 209 00:10:48,196 --> 00:10:51,276 Speaker 1: it was a wanted or unwanted change, right, a willed 210 00:10:51,356 --> 00:10:54,556 Speaker 1: or unwilled change. And I realized by making a slight 211 00:10:54,636 --> 00:10:57,236 Speaker 1: change of plans that that framework was totally off. And 212 00:10:57,276 --> 00:11:00,916 Speaker 1: the reason for that is there are so many unexpected 213 00:11:00,956 --> 00:11:05,836 Speaker 1: consequences of a change that occur that we can't possibly anticipate. 214 00:11:06,036 --> 00:11:07,756 Speaker 1: You know, we like to think of change happening in 215 00:11:07,756 --> 00:11:10,836 Speaker 1: the vacuum, right, I'm going to be exactly, Maya. It's 216 00:11:10,876 --> 00:11:12,916 Speaker 1: just that this one thing about me is going to change. 217 00:11:13,156 --> 00:11:15,556 Speaker 1: But that's just not how the human experience works, right. 218 00:11:15,596 --> 00:11:19,436 Speaker 1: We are these intricate ecosystems where change in one area 219 00:11:19,436 --> 00:11:22,236 Speaker 1: of our lives has these profound spillovers into other parts 220 00:11:22,236 --> 00:11:24,596 Speaker 1: of our lives, and we just can't anticipate, like I 221 00:11:24,596 --> 00:11:27,596 Speaker 1: said before, all the ways in which it might impact us. 222 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:30,316 Speaker 1: So a good example of this is I interviewed a 223 00:11:30,316 --> 00:11:33,396 Speaker 1: guy named Scott. He's in his early thirties. He's a 224 00:11:33,396 --> 00:11:36,916 Speaker 1: cancer researcher, and he got a stage four cancer diagnosis 225 00:11:37,276 --> 00:11:41,156 Speaker 1: during quarantine, and this was his worst nightmare come true 226 00:11:41,356 --> 00:11:44,276 Speaker 1: because unlike you and me, Laurie, he was a health nut. 227 00:11:44,956 --> 00:11:48,236 Speaker 1: And you know, he was doing high intensity interval training, 228 00:11:48,396 --> 00:11:50,836 Speaker 1: intermittent fasting. I don't even know what that is. I 229 00:11:50,876 --> 00:11:53,636 Speaker 1: can't do that. He was adding turmeric to his food, 230 00:11:53,756 --> 00:11:56,756 Speaker 1: eating chia seeds by the handful. Like this guy was 231 00:11:56,836 --> 00:12:00,676 Speaker 1: super into preserving his body right and reducing what he 232 00:12:00,676 --> 00:12:03,396 Speaker 1: calls diminishment. And then he gets his stage four cancer 233 00:12:03,396 --> 00:12:06,316 Speaker 1: diagnosis and it's his worst fear come true. And yet 234 00:12:06,356 --> 00:12:08,596 Speaker 1: when I interviewed him and I talked to him, he said, 235 00:12:09,596 --> 00:12:12,356 Speaker 1: you know, I think I'm actually a better person and 236 00:12:12,796 --> 00:12:18,036 Speaker 1: that the emotional thermostat has persevered, which is so profound. Right, 237 00:12:18,356 --> 00:12:21,876 Speaker 1: he violated his own expectations. He thought for sure that 238 00:12:21,916 --> 00:12:23,716 Speaker 1: this would be the absolute worst thing that happened to me. 239 00:12:23,756 --> 00:12:26,236 Speaker 1: But I'm sitting here, you know, six months into my 240 00:12:26,316 --> 00:12:30,676 Speaker 1: chemotherapy treatments, having had multiple surgeries, including amputating my leg, 241 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:34,516 Speaker 1: and I'm sitting here feeling gratitude for the fact that 242 00:12:35,036 --> 00:12:38,156 Speaker 1: I feel more or less as happy as I did before. 243 00:12:38,396 --> 00:12:40,956 Speaker 1: I mean, it's so incredible, right, you know. I mean 244 00:12:40,956 --> 00:12:44,556 Speaker 1: it's something that's been documented obviously by psychological research. On 245 00:12:44,596 --> 00:12:47,396 Speaker 1: the Happiness Lab, we've talked about this idea of what's 246 00:12:47,396 --> 00:12:49,956 Speaker 1: called the psychological immune system. Right, Like, just like we 247 00:12:49,996 --> 00:12:52,516 Speaker 1: have an immune system that will fight disease, you know, 248 00:12:52,556 --> 00:12:55,476 Speaker 1: physical diseases, viruses, and so on, so too do we 249 00:12:55,476 --> 00:12:58,836 Speaker 1: have a psychological immune system that will fight when bad 250 00:12:58,876 --> 00:13:01,436 Speaker 1: things come up, Right, It'll fight the bad consequences, will 251 00:13:01,556 --> 00:13:03,836 Speaker 1: rationalize our decision, or we'll see some meaning in it, 252 00:13:03,916 --> 00:13:06,716 Speaker 1: or we'll seek out resources, seek out social support. You know, 253 00:13:06,756 --> 00:13:10,036 Speaker 1: the psychological immune system means that aren't as bad as 254 00:13:10,036 --> 00:13:13,116 Speaker 1: we think, but it still feels like the worst possible 255 00:13:13,156 --> 00:13:16,756 Speaker 1: thing you imagine happening. Happening would be bad and would suck, 256 00:13:16,756 --> 00:13:19,676 Speaker 1: and you wouldn't react with gratitude. But the amazing thing 257 00:13:19,716 --> 00:13:21,676 Speaker 1: about our minds is that that's just not the case. 258 00:13:21,756 --> 00:13:24,876 Speaker 1: It's just yet another spot where we're forecasting that change 259 00:13:24,916 --> 00:13:27,716 Speaker 1: is going to feel awful, but like it's not always 260 00:13:27,756 --> 00:13:30,716 Speaker 1: as bad as we think. It's so profound, it is profound. 261 00:13:30,836 --> 00:13:33,956 Speaker 1: Another trait that I've seen emerge in almost all of 262 00:13:33,996 --> 00:13:36,556 Speaker 1: my guests, and I've seen kicking for me psychologically in 263 00:13:36,556 --> 00:13:40,516 Speaker 1: the face of an unwanted change is to irresistibly want 264 00:13:40,556 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 1: to build stories out of our experiences to build narratives 265 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:48,236 Speaker 1: and find ways to make sense of the things that 266 00:13:48,276 --> 00:13:51,196 Speaker 1: have happened to us. And this is true irrespective of 267 00:13:51,276 --> 00:13:54,716 Speaker 1: religious beliefs spiritual beliefs. Right. I find this across the board, 268 00:13:54,876 --> 00:13:58,116 Speaker 1: you know, believers and nonbelievers alike. And you know, in 269 00:13:58,156 --> 00:13:59,916 Speaker 1: talking with Scott, he was saying, you know, I don't 270 00:13:59,956 --> 00:14:02,196 Speaker 1: happen to believe things happen for a reason. I don't 271 00:14:02,236 --> 00:14:05,076 Speaker 1: happen to have any spiritual beliefs to guide me through 272 00:14:05,076 --> 00:14:08,156 Speaker 1: this process. But in my mind, I almost need to 273 00:14:08,196 --> 00:14:10,636 Speaker 1: justify this, and I need to make sense of what 274 00:14:10,796 --> 00:14:13,436 Speaker 1: is otherwise a fully random system. And so what he 275 00:14:13,476 --> 00:14:15,596 Speaker 1: was telling me was, you know, if my body is 276 00:14:15,636 --> 00:14:18,716 Speaker 1: going to deteriorate in this way, at least my personality 277 00:14:18,756 --> 00:14:21,116 Speaker 1: needs to become better. And so he worked really hard 278 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:24,836 Speaker 1: at becoming a more empathetic person, becoming a better listener, 279 00:14:24,916 --> 00:14:28,836 Speaker 1: showing more compassion towards himself and others. And I just 280 00:14:28,916 --> 00:14:31,396 Speaker 1: find and again, I hope this is reassuring to listeners 281 00:14:31,396 --> 00:14:35,236 Speaker 1: that we just irresistibly as humans, right, narratives about our 282 00:14:35,236 --> 00:14:38,036 Speaker 1: lives and our stories, and that can bring you comfort 283 00:14:38,036 --> 00:14:40,036 Speaker 1: in those moments, because no matter what happens to you, 284 00:14:40,036 --> 00:14:42,276 Speaker 1: you will try to find some meaning or purpose in it. 285 00:14:42,516 --> 00:14:44,316 Speaker 1: And this is you know again, you know, right out 286 00:14:44,316 --> 00:14:46,156 Speaker 1: of the research playbook, right you know, it comes from 287 00:14:46,516 --> 00:14:49,796 Speaker 1: some fantastic work by researchers like Jamie Pennybaker and his 288 00:14:49,836 --> 00:14:52,676 Speaker 1: colleagues right where he just finds that if you're going 289 00:14:52,716 --> 00:14:55,276 Speaker 1: through something really difficult, especially if you know right now 290 00:14:55,636 --> 00:14:57,916 Speaker 1: a listener is in the midst of a change, you know, 291 00:14:57,996 --> 00:15:00,476 Speaker 1: sit down and actually journal it. If that process of 292 00:15:00,516 --> 00:15:04,316 Speaker 1: sense making and meaning making and narrative making isn't happening naturally, 293 00:15:04,716 --> 00:15:06,956 Speaker 1: you can engage it, right, just sit down and start 294 00:15:07,036 --> 00:15:09,756 Speaker 1: journaling about it, and you'd be surprised how quickly this 295 00:15:09,796 --> 00:15:12,396 Speaker 1: sense making kind of takes the four It's one way 296 00:15:12,436 --> 00:15:14,516 Speaker 1: if you're having trouble going through a change, that you 297 00:15:14,556 --> 00:15:16,756 Speaker 1: really can kind of fast forward some of that sense 298 00:15:16,796 --> 00:15:19,516 Speaker 1: making process. But your story is about all these kinds 299 00:15:19,556 --> 00:15:21,476 Speaker 1: of cases, you know, to tell me a lot of things, right, 300 00:15:21,476 --> 00:15:23,556 Speaker 1: It tells me like change is happening, like whether we 301 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:25,316 Speaker 1: want it or not, you know, especially right now, in 302 00:15:25,396 --> 00:15:28,396 Speaker 1: the midst of everything that's going on, it sometimes happened 303 00:15:28,396 --> 00:15:30,356 Speaker 1: and so without us realizing it, right, you know, we 304 00:15:30,396 --> 00:15:34,076 Speaker 1: can accidentally step into a transformative experience without knowing it, 305 00:15:34,396 --> 00:15:36,316 Speaker 1: and that means that I think we need some like 306 00:15:36,716 --> 00:15:39,156 Speaker 1: advice for how to deal with changes, right, like, how 307 00:15:39,156 --> 00:15:41,916 Speaker 1: do we deal with this? And from a happiness perspective, 308 00:15:41,916 --> 00:15:44,156 Speaker 1: how do we best use these moments of change to 309 00:15:44,236 --> 00:15:47,316 Speaker 1: improve our well being? And one piece of advice that 310 00:15:47,356 --> 00:15:49,676 Speaker 1: I know you've given before and that you've you've taken 311 00:15:49,716 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 1: on through your own changes in your own life, is 312 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:55,156 Speaker 1: that you need to recognize that you shouldn't get wedded 313 00:15:55,196 --> 00:15:58,276 Speaker 1: to one particular pursuit or how you're framing the things 314 00:15:58,276 --> 00:16:00,076 Speaker 1: that you really enjoy in life. You might be able 315 00:16:00,116 --> 00:16:02,636 Speaker 1: to think about a little bit flexibly and so talk 316 00:16:02,676 --> 00:16:04,596 Speaker 1: about you know, how this played out in the context 317 00:16:04,676 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 1: of your violin playing when that change happened. You know, 318 00:16:07,556 --> 00:16:09,516 Speaker 1: how did you kind of come to terms with pursue 319 00:16:09,556 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 1: you were really going after that you didn't realize. Yeah, 320 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:14,476 Speaker 1: So going back to you know, the age of fifteen, 321 00:16:14,516 --> 00:16:16,916 Speaker 1: as I mentioned, I was absolutely devastated in the face 322 00:16:16,956 --> 00:16:18,996 Speaker 1: of this loss, and I didn't really know how to 323 00:16:18,996 --> 00:16:21,156 Speaker 1: pick up the pieces because I was thinking to myself, 324 00:16:21,676 --> 00:16:24,916 Speaker 1: I literally lost the thing that I'm completely in love with. 325 00:16:25,716 --> 00:16:28,556 Speaker 1: And I think in hindsight, what I've learned is that 326 00:16:29,196 --> 00:16:31,676 Speaker 1: it can be really helpful to try to identify the 327 00:16:31,756 --> 00:16:34,676 Speaker 1: features of the pursuit that you really enjoyed, rather than 328 00:16:34,716 --> 00:16:37,436 Speaker 1: focusing too much on the thing itself. So I think 329 00:16:37,436 --> 00:16:38,796 Speaker 1: you had asked me as a young kid, what do 330 00:16:38,796 --> 00:16:41,396 Speaker 1: you love about the violin, I would have said to you, Oh, Laurie, 331 00:16:41,396 --> 00:16:44,036 Speaker 1: I love how it sounds and how it feels. And 332 00:16:44,516 --> 00:16:48,036 Speaker 1: I think in hindsight, what I've learned is that actually 333 00:16:48,436 --> 00:16:50,436 Speaker 1: what really got me to tick when it came to 334 00:16:50,436 --> 00:16:55,476 Speaker 1: the violin was forging an emotional connection with people. You know, 335 00:16:55,516 --> 00:16:58,196 Speaker 1: as a young kid, you go on stage, there's thousands 336 00:16:58,236 --> 00:17:00,836 Speaker 1: of strangers in the audience, right, no one's met anyone, 337 00:17:01,236 --> 00:17:04,516 Speaker 1: and within a moment, based on what you're playing, you 338 00:17:04,556 --> 00:17:07,356 Speaker 1: can make people feel something that they've never felt before. 339 00:17:07,796 --> 00:17:11,156 Speaker 1: And that is an incredibly empowering and toxicating feeling, right 340 00:17:11,196 --> 00:17:13,916 Speaker 1: to have that kind of emotional connection with people. And 341 00:17:13,956 --> 00:17:16,716 Speaker 1: so what I learned from that is, Oh, it's actually 342 00:17:16,796 --> 00:17:19,396 Speaker 1: human connection that gets me moving, Like violin was an 343 00:17:19,436 --> 00:17:21,996 Speaker 1: instrument towards that. Oh gosh, me with the puns, they're 344 00:17:22,036 --> 00:17:26,156 Speaker 1: all unattended, okay. Violin was a vehicle for me to 345 00:17:26,956 --> 00:17:30,116 Speaker 1: achieve that desire for human connection. But I found the 346 00:17:30,236 --> 00:17:32,316 Speaker 1: through line over the course of my career, which might 347 00:17:32,316 --> 00:17:36,236 Speaker 1: seem very disparate and not connected, is that I've been 348 00:17:36,276 --> 00:17:40,276 Speaker 1: searching for human connection throughout and I did this by 349 00:17:40,276 --> 00:17:43,676 Speaker 1: studying cognitive science under your tutelage in undergrad and beyond 350 00:17:43,716 --> 00:17:46,796 Speaker 1: where I was studying the human mind and understanding how 351 00:17:46,796 --> 00:17:49,796 Speaker 1: it is we even develop relationships with people and make 352 00:17:49,836 --> 00:17:52,556 Speaker 1: decisions and move about in this world and connect with 353 00:17:52,596 --> 00:17:54,956 Speaker 1: one another. And then through my podcast, a slight change 354 00:17:54,956 --> 00:17:58,796 Speaker 1: of plans, right, it is the ultimate excuse where you 355 00:17:58,796 --> 00:18:00,796 Speaker 1: can go in your room with a person you'd never met, 356 00:18:00,836 --> 00:18:05,036 Speaker 1: and within minutes you're talking about you deeply personal parts 357 00:18:05,036 --> 00:18:07,916 Speaker 1: of your life and asking questions about how it is 358 00:18:07,916 --> 00:18:09,676 Speaker 1: that they've gone through things, and you are connecting on 359 00:18:09,676 --> 00:18:12,876 Speaker 1: a really deep level. So for those who have lost 360 00:18:12,916 --> 00:18:15,036 Speaker 1: something in their lives, right, and I know that twenty 361 00:18:15,076 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 1: twenty fold with so much loss across the board, I 362 00:18:18,076 --> 00:18:20,316 Speaker 1: think it could be a really valuable exercise to take 363 00:18:20,356 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 1: a step back and say, what are the traits, what 364 00:18:23,156 --> 00:18:25,236 Speaker 1: are the features of the different things in my life 365 00:18:25,236 --> 00:18:27,676 Speaker 1: that bring me joy, and let me see if I 366 00:18:27,756 --> 00:18:31,516 Speaker 1: can construct that in other areas in other ways. And again, 367 00:18:31,556 --> 00:18:33,356 Speaker 1: you know, this is something that we know from a 368 00:18:33,356 --> 00:18:35,476 Speaker 1: lot of the research on the kinds of things that 369 00:18:35,516 --> 00:18:38,036 Speaker 1: make us happier. Right. You know, there's so much fantastic 370 00:18:38,076 --> 00:18:41,036 Speaker 1: work by Marty Seligman and his colleagues on this idea 371 00:18:41,036 --> 00:18:44,276 Speaker 1: of character strengths. You know, these kinds of like values 372 00:18:44,316 --> 00:18:46,116 Speaker 1: that you have, strengths that you have, you know, the 373 00:18:46,196 --> 00:18:47,796 Speaker 1: kinds of things, as you said, maya that kind of 374 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:50,156 Speaker 1: bring you joy. And there are things like as you express, 375 00:18:50,236 --> 00:18:52,316 Speaker 1: like connecting with people. You know, they could be things 376 00:18:52,316 --> 00:18:55,316 Speaker 1: like a love of learning, a sense of bravery, right, 377 00:18:55,396 --> 00:18:58,756 Speaker 1: you know, the idea that you're really pursuing creative pursuits, 378 00:18:58,796 --> 00:19:02,476 Speaker 1: even things like you know, emotions like transcendence or spirituality. Right, Like, 379 00:19:02,556 --> 00:19:04,716 Speaker 1: we all have these things that are the things that 380 00:19:04,756 --> 00:19:08,396 Speaker 1: get us going. And Seligman finds that if you apply 381 00:19:08,596 --> 00:19:10,836 Speaker 1: those things more in your life, whether that's in your 382 00:19:10,876 --> 00:19:13,956 Speaker 1: career and your relationships, you will just get more joy 383 00:19:14,036 --> 00:19:16,836 Speaker 1: out of it. It matters less the specific job that 384 00:19:16,876 --> 00:19:19,956 Speaker 1: you have or the specific activity you're engaging in, and 385 00:19:20,036 --> 00:19:21,836 Speaker 1: more that you kind of bring these traits out. And 386 00:19:21,836 --> 00:19:24,316 Speaker 1: here's these two examples I'd love to share This one 387 00:19:24,396 --> 00:19:27,116 Speaker 1: is an exercise that I have my students do in class, 388 00:19:27,516 --> 00:19:30,796 Speaker 1: which Seliman calls a strengths date. That how you pick 389 00:19:30,956 --> 00:19:33,276 Speaker 1: a friend, you know, your spouse, a friend, and you 390 00:19:33,316 --> 00:19:35,556 Speaker 1: find these strengths that you really like. You know, so 391 00:19:35,756 --> 00:19:38,156 Speaker 1: for you would be like connecting with other people, right Like, 392 00:19:38,196 --> 00:19:40,516 Speaker 1: how can you engage in some sort of fun date 393 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:43,236 Speaker 1: night activity that lets you connect more with other people? 394 00:19:43,516 --> 00:19:46,436 Speaker 1: The idea is like, you're not picking a specific activity, 395 00:19:46,476 --> 00:19:49,316 Speaker 1: You're just building this thing that's based on the strengths 396 00:19:49,356 --> 00:19:52,356 Speaker 1: and the values that you love. Another wonderful exercise is 397 00:19:52,396 --> 00:19:55,036 Speaker 1: to figure out how you can build these strengths more 398 00:19:55,116 --> 00:19:58,036 Speaker 1: into your career, right Like, you might have some particular 399 00:19:58,156 --> 00:20:01,516 Speaker 1: job description, but can you shape your job description more 400 00:20:01,516 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 1: in the direction of the things you enjoy? Right? You know? 401 00:20:04,196 --> 00:20:05,756 Speaker 1: And I think this is one of the reasons your 402 00:20:05,836 --> 00:20:08,996 Speaker 1: podcast is so fantastic is that it's obvious how much 403 00:20:09,156 --> 00:20:11,996 Speaker 1: you enjoy connecting with your guests and connecting with your listeners. 404 00:20:12,196 --> 00:20:14,556 Speaker 1: It's obvious that's a strength of yours, and it's so 405 00:20:14,596 --> 00:20:16,516 Speaker 1: obvious that it brings you joy. But we can all 406 00:20:16,556 --> 00:20:18,756 Speaker 1: even if you're not a podcaster, like you can figure 407 00:20:18,756 --> 00:20:21,156 Speaker 1: out ways to build in strengths in your own life, 408 00:20:21,156 --> 00:20:23,756 Speaker 1: which I find just so profound. I love that so much. 409 00:20:23,756 --> 00:20:25,316 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, a lot of times, when 410 00:20:25,316 --> 00:20:26,996 Speaker 1: you are looking for a job or you're getting hired 411 00:20:26,996 --> 00:20:29,556 Speaker 1: for a job, you're hiring manager might not even know 412 00:20:29,996 --> 00:20:32,676 Speaker 1: that they have so much to benefit from these untapped 413 00:20:32,676 --> 00:20:34,996 Speaker 1: into skills. Right. You know, You've been in my life 414 00:20:34,996 --> 00:20:37,996 Speaker 1: several times where I've written job descriptions from scratch or 415 00:20:37,996 --> 00:20:40,756 Speaker 1: for jobs that didn't exist that I wanted to see happen, 416 00:20:40,876 --> 00:20:44,236 Speaker 1: And it can be extremely profound to say, in addition 417 00:20:44,276 --> 00:20:47,076 Speaker 1: to the core traits you've articulated, here are my superpowers, 418 00:20:47,116 --> 00:20:48,676 Speaker 1: and here's what I plan to bring to the job. 419 00:20:48,916 --> 00:20:50,996 Speaker 1: Here's what I think could benefit the role. You know. 420 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:53,316 Speaker 1: So that's kind of piece of advice. Number one I 421 00:20:53,356 --> 00:20:56,116 Speaker 1: think is like, you know, bringing in these values, not 422 00:20:56,156 --> 00:20:59,436 Speaker 1: necessarily wetting your identity to one thing, but recognizing that 423 00:20:59,516 --> 00:21:02,796 Speaker 1: your identity is really based on these core kinds of strengths, 424 00:21:02,796 --> 00:21:04,956 Speaker 1: these core kinds of values. You know. A second piece 425 00:21:04,956 --> 00:21:07,356 Speaker 1: of advice that I think comes from your experience with 426 00:21:07,516 --> 00:21:11,556 Speaker 1: change is this idea that you know, we forget how 427 00:21:11,596 --> 00:21:14,076 Speaker 1: resilient we are in the face of change. You know, 428 00:21:14,076 --> 00:21:16,676 Speaker 1: We just talked about all these examples where people go 429 00:21:16,756 --> 00:21:20,876 Speaker 1: through these awful, awful events and they're fine or maybe 430 00:21:20,916 --> 00:21:23,476 Speaker 1: better off for it. But the sad thing is that 431 00:21:23,556 --> 00:21:26,836 Speaker 1: we forget that bad change can be good. We forget 432 00:21:26,876 --> 00:21:29,556 Speaker 1: we're resilient enough to get through it. And that means 433 00:21:29,596 --> 00:21:32,076 Speaker 1: we don't like take on changes that might be really 434 00:21:32,116 --> 00:21:34,396 Speaker 1: beneficial to us because we're kind of scared about how 435 00:21:34,436 --> 00:21:36,556 Speaker 1: we're going to react to them. I think that's right. 436 00:21:36,636 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 1: I mean, I think so many of us face a 437 00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:41,876 Speaker 1: change of version of some kind, right because you know, 438 00:21:41,916 --> 00:21:43,996 Speaker 1: we have things like the status quo bias. It's very 439 00:21:43,996 --> 00:21:48,156 Speaker 1: comfortable to allow inertia to move us forward. But by 440 00:21:48,196 --> 00:21:50,796 Speaker 1: and large, every guest I've had on a slight change 441 00:21:50,796 --> 00:21:53,956 Speaker 1: of plans has been grateful in some way for having 442 00:21:53,956 --> 00:21:56,996 Speaker 1: had a big change happen to them, or having a 443 00:21:57,076 --> 00:22:00,796 Speaker 1: change that they inspired. And it's not because it always 444 00:22:00,836 --> 00:22:03,716 Speaker 1: turned out perfectly or even made them happier in the 445 00:22:03,716 --> 00:22:06,276 Speaker 1: short term. It's because it allowed them to grow in 446 00:22:06,316 --> 00:22:09,676 Speaker 1: some way and help them better understand who they are 447 00:22:09,756 --> 00:22:12,636 Speaker 1: and what they're capable of and what their full potential is. 448 00:22:13,076 --> 00:22:15,636 Speaker 1: And I find that to be an empowering lesson because 449 00:22:15,676 --> 00:22:18,556 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons why we can always 450 00:22:18,596 --> 00:22:22,276 Speaker 1: forget our own resilience is that there's this cognitive fallacy 451 00:22:22,316 --> 00:22:24,916 Speaker 1: that I feel we all have where when we're confronted 452 00:22:24,916 --> 00:22:28,716 Speaker 1: with a big change, we latch onto how novel the 453 00:22:28,796 --> 00:22:32,636 Speaker 1: specifics of that change feels. So in twenty twenty, for example, 454 00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:34,756 Speaker 1: with COVID, it was like, oh my gosh, this is 455 00:22:34,796 --> 00:22:37,756 Speaker 1: such an unprecedented thing to happen to all of us. 456 00:22:37,836 --> 00:22:39,636 Speaker 1: None of us know how to deal with this big change. 457 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:43,996 Speaker 1: This is awful. But what helped me during twenty twenty 458 00:22:44,076 --> 00:22:47,476 Speaker 1: was realizing that while the specifics of what twenty twenty 459 00:22:47,476 --> 00:22:50,916 Speaker 1: through our way was unprecedented, our human ability to navigate 460 00:22:50,996 --> 00:22:54,796 Speaker 1: change is not unprecedented. We'd done this rodeo so many 461 00:22:54,836 --> 00:22:57,636 Speaker 1: times before, but the content has been different, right, or 462 00:22:57,956 --> 00:23:00,556 Speaker 1: we didn't maybe experienced it as a collective glow. But 463 00:23:00,676 --> 00:23:03,356 Speaker 1: we've all had changes in our personal lives that we've 464 00:23:03,356 --> 00:23:05,396 Speaker 1: had to navigate and we've come out the other side. 465 00:23:05,716 --> 00:23:08,436 Speaker 1: And so I think just reminding yourself in the face 466 00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:11,876 Speaker 1: of change that is surprised to you and you're like, 467 00:23:11,916 --> 00:23:13,756 Speaker 1: I don't know how to deal with this specific change, 468 00:23:13,996 --> 00:23:17,116 Speaker 1: remember that in many ways, our psychologies are built for change, 469 00:23:17,676 --> 00:23:20,076 Speaker 1: and this is a universal set of features we all 470 00:23:20,116 --> 00:23:22,996 Speaker 1: share as human beings. And I think that recognizing that 471 00:23:23,036 --> 00:23:25,916 Speaker 1: we're built for a change can help alleviate, you know, 472 00:23:25,996 --> 00:23:28,396 Speaker 1: some of the anxiety that comes with these big changes 473 00:23:28,396 --> 00:23:30,516 Speaker 1: that might be coming up, or changes that we might fear. 474 00:23:30,996 --> 00:23:33,156 Speaker 1: But I think recognizing that we're built for a change 475 00:23:33,276 --> 00:23:35,156 Speaker 1: gets to kind of the last piece of advice that 476 00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:37,716 Speaker 1: I wanted to focus on, which is this idea that 477 00:23:37,756 --> 00:23:40,516 Speaker 1: like we can change, right, you know, so if you're 478 00:23:40,916 --> 00:23:42,916 Speaker 1: kind of stuck in a rut in terms of your 479 00:23:42,916 --> 00:23:45,476 Speaker 1: well being, or engaging in habits that you're maybe not 480 00:23:45,556 --> 00:23:47,996 Speaker 1: proud of, or if you feel like you're not flourishing enough, 481 00:23:48,316 --> 00:23:50,676 Speaker 1: I think we can sometimes feel like, well, that's it, 482 00:23:50,836 --> 00:23:52,756 Speaker 1: Like you know, this is how I am. I'm just 483 00:23:52,796 --> 00:23:55,236 Speaker 1: stuck here. But the fact of the matter is that 484 00:23:55,316 --> 00:23:59,436 Speaker 1: the entire scientific literature shows that change is possible, especially 485 00:23:59,556 --> 00:24:03,196 Speaker 1: change towards experiences of more joy, more happiness, more flourishing. 486 00:24:03,556 --> 00:24:06,636 Speaker 1: Like we can actually change more than we think, even 487 00:24:06,676 --> 00:24:09,676 Speaker 1: though we don't realize it. Right, absolutely, like you said, 488 00:24:09,716 --> 00:24:12,916 Speaker 1: all of the research and psychology can help support this. 489 00:24:12,956 --> 00:24:16,076 Speaker 1: There's also research and neuroscience showing just how plastic the 490 00:24:16,196 --> 00:24:19,436 Speaker 1: brain remains over the course of our lives. And what 491 00:24:19,596 --> 00:24:22,076 Speaker 1: I love about the Happiness Lab and what I love 492 00:24:22,116 --> 00:24:24,356 Speaker 1: about happiness research is that it gives us so many 493 00:24:24,836 --> 00:24:27,796 Speaker 1: tactical recommendations of how we can introduce this kind of 494 00:24:27,836 --> 00:24:31,076 Speaker 1: positive change into our lives. My husband and I had 495 00:24:31,276 --> 00:24:34,876 Speaker 1: a really challenging personal experience the other day, and I 496 00:24:34,916 --> 00:24:37,276 Speaker 1: remember going to bed thinking, oh, this is such a 497 00:24:37,316 --> 00:24:40,916 Speaker 1: shitty day, like I hate this day. And my husband, Jimmy, said, 498 00:24:41,356 --> 00:24:43,476 Speaker 1: we're going to write gratitude lists, and I was like, 499 00:24:43,636 --> 00:24:46,356 Speaker 1: I don't want to. You know, you're so begrudging in 500 00:24:46,396 --> 00:24:48,796 Speaker 1: that moment, right the last thing you want to do 501 00:24:48,836 --> 00:24:51,596 Speaker 1: when you're in the throes of a bad change or 502 00:24:51,596 --> 00:24:54,636 Speaker 1: whatnot is to commit to a gratitude list. But oh 503 00:24:54,676 --> 00:24:57,076 Speaker 1: my gosh, you soften, you know, by number three on 504 00:24:57,156 --> 00:25:00,156 Speaker 1: that list. You start to frame your life differently, You 505 00:25:00,196 --> 00:25:02,876 Speaker 1: start to frame the change event differently, you start to 506 00:25:02,916 --> 00:25:06,436 Speaker 1: have perspective to take some distance from it. And I 507 00:25:06,596 --> 00:25:09,996 Speaker 1: found it to be such a therapeutic exercise. And again 508 00:25:10,036 --> 00:25:13,236 Speaker 1: I think, you know, some of these recommendations from from 509 00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:15,596 Speaker 1: our field can seem like common sense, right, Oh yeah, 510 00:25:15,636 --> 00:25:17,596 Speaker 1: just write down your gratitude thoughts. But I think what 511 00:25:17,636 --> 00:25:20,636 Speaker 1: the research shows us is what a huge impact it 512 00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:23,476 Speaker 1: can have on well being, which we might not appreciate, right, 513 00:25:23,516 --> 00:25:26,196 Speaker 1: And it can lead you to actually commit to doing 514 00:25:26,196 --> 00:25:28,636 Speaker 1: those things, even in hard moments. And I think, you know, 515 00:25:28,636 --> 00:25:30,356 Speaker 1: I love the idea that you know, it feels like 516 00:25:30,436 --> 00:25:34,036 Speaker 1: common sense, but it's not common practice, right, you have 517 00:25:34,236 --> 00:25:35,836 Speaker 1: to do it, and when you do it, you know, 518 00:25:35,916 --> 00:25:37,956 Speaker 1: you see these benefits. And I think, you know, that's 519 00:25:37,956 --> 00:25:40,636 Speaker 1: one of the intuitions that I think we get wrong 520 00:25:40,756 --> 00:25:42,716 Speaker 1: or that can kind of lead us astray, right, which 521 00:25:42,756 --> 00:25:45,156 Speaker 1: is like this, it's not going to work, right, you know, 522 00:25:45,196 --> 00:25:47,556 Speaker 1: I'm fixed, I'm not going to change. But you know, 523 00:25:47,636 --> 00:25:50,236 Speaker 1: you I think identify a lot of a different kind 524 00:25:50,276 --> 00:25:52,596 Speaker 1: of mindset that we can take to some of these changes, 525 00:25:52,836 --> 00:25:55,516 Speaker 1: you know, which researchers call this idea of a growth mindset. 526 00:25:55,556 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 1: You know, So what's this idea of a growth mindset? 527 00:25:57,396 --> 00:25:59,356 Speaker 1: And how how can we apply it better? Yeah? The 528 00:25:59,396 --> 00:26:01,756 Speaker 1: growth mindset refers to the idea that we should see 529 00:26:01,796 --> 00:26:04,596 Speaker 1: our brains in the same way that we see our muscles. Right, 530 00:26:04,636 --> 00:26:06,516 Speaker 1: So we always we believe if we run around the 531 00:26:06,516 --> 00:26:09,356 Speaker 1: track a certain number of times, our calf muscles will 532 00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:12,396 Speaker 1: get stronger. We should see our minds in the same way. Right, 533 00:26:12,436 --> 00:26:15,276 Speaker 1: If you do enough exercises, if you commit to that 534 00:26:15,316 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 1: mindfulness meditation practice for five minutes a day, you will 535 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:23,116 Speaker 1: build that mental strength. And I think we've always had 536 00:26:23,476 --> 00:26:25,756 Speaker 1: a disconnect in our minds about how our bodies grow, 537 00:26:26,116 --> 00:26:28,636 Speaker 1: but that our minds somehow don't have that same potential. 538 00:26:28,756 --> 00:26:31,476 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of really compelling research about how 539 00:26:31,516 --> 00:26:33,356 Speaker 1: in fact it does. I mean, you and I might 540 00:26:33,356 --> 00:26:35,076 Speaker 1: not want to run around the track eight times, So 541 00:26:35,076 --> 00:26:38,276 Speaker 1: maybe it's a bad analogy, but in theory, if we 542 00:26:38,276 --> 00:26:40,756 Speaker 1: were to our casts to get stronger, and the beauty 543 00:26:40,876 --> 00:26:45,196 Speaker 1: is like, it's really the thing I mind most fascinating 544 00:26:45,196 --> 00:26:48,996 Speaker 1: about their growth mindset research is that it's our mindset, right. 545 00:26:49,036 --> 00:26:51,756 Speaker 1: Our beliefs about the extent to which we can change 546 00:26:51,876 --> 00:26:54,596 Speaker 1: in fact affect the degree to which we change, I mean, 547 00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:56,356 Speaker 1: in part just because it affects what we do. Right. 548 00:26:56,356 --> 00:26:58,716 Speaker 1: If you believe you can't change, you're not going to 549 00:26:58,716 --> 00:27:00,556 Speaker 1: start running around the track, You're not going to engage 550 00:27:00,596 --> 00:27:02,876 Speaker 1: in a gratitude practice, you're not going to start meditating 551 00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:04,996 Speaker 1: every day. You have to kind of believe it's going 552 00:27:05,036 --> 00:27:08,036 Speaker 1: to work to see the effects of these changes. But 553 00:27:08,076 --> 00:27:10,156 Speaker 1: the good news is that we can change those beliefs. 554 00:27:10,196 --> 00:27:12,076 Speaker 1: And I think the science helps. As you said, like 555 00:27:12,436 --> 00:27:15,556 Speaker 1: just knowing the brain is incredibly plastic that it basically 556 00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:18,516 Speaker 1: works like a calf muscle can help you see like, 557 00:27:18,596 --> 00:27:20,316 Speaker 1: this is worth it. I should put time into it, 558 00:27:20,316 --> 00:27:22,676 Speaker 1: I should try these practices. Yeah, it can change the 559 00:27:22,756 --> 00:27:25,756 Speaker 1: way that you act. Like you said, just a simple 560 00:27:25,836 --> 00:27:28,316 Speaker 1: mindset shift can affect performance. And so this is one 561 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:29,956 Speaker 1: of the reasons that I was so excited you agreed 562 00:27:29,996 --> 00:27:32,596 Speaker 1: to this bonus episode, because you know, do you really 563 00:27:32,636 --> 00:27:35,236 Speaker 1: think that understanding the science of change better can be 564 00:27:35,356 --> 00:27:39,076 Speaker 1: kind of a path to improving or flourishing overall? Absolutely? 565 00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:42,756 Speaker 1: I mean, I think my goal with making this podcast 566 00:27:42,876 --> 00:27:45,516 Speaker 1: was that I felt like I didn't have all the 567 00:27:45,556 --> 00:27:48,356 Speaker 1: answers to change right, and I thought it would be 568 00:27:48,396 --> 00:27:50,956 Speaker 1: such a fascinating experience to try to marry what the 569 00:27:51,036 --> 00:27:53,876 Speaker 1: science tells us about happiness with people's real life stories 570 00:27:53,916 --> 00:27:57,836 Speaker 1: and real life narratives. And I feel like that blending 571 00:27:58,236 --> 00:28:01,756 Speaker 1: of wisdom, like mining people's stories for their wisdom, but 572 00:28:01,796 --> 00:28:04,116 Speaker 1: then also mining the research literature to try to figure 573 00:28:04,116 --> 00:28:08,436 Speaker 1: out strategies for better managing change. It certainly made me 574 00:28:08,636 --> 00:28:11,036 Speaker 1: a better, more resilient person, and I'm hoping that it's 575 00:28:11,076 --> 00:28:13,916 Speaker 1: had the same impact on listeners. And speaking of listeners, 576 00:28:14,236 --> 00:28:17,676 Speaker 1: we had promised that this would also involve some listener questions, 577 00:28:17,996 --> 00:28:19,796 Speaker 1: and so I have a few of them that listeners 578 00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:22,876 Speaker 1: submitted through Facebook earlier, and so Maya. If you wouldn't mind, 579 00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:24,916 Speaker 1: I'd love to get your your take on some of 580 00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:28,916 Speaker 1: these questions. The first question is how do you gauge 581 00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:31,796 Speaker 1: if a life change will actually make you happier? You 582 00:28:31,836 --> 00:28:34,436 Speaker 1: know that the reader goes on to ask is the 583 00:28:34,476 --> 00:28:36,756 Speaker 1: grass always greener on the other side, you know, how 584 00:28:36,756 --> 00:28:38,956 Speaker 1: do you know if you turn down an opportunity that 585 00:28:38,956 --> 00:28:41,836 Speaker 1: that will ultimately be a good thing. I wish I 586 00:28:41,956 --> 00:28:44,156 Speaker 1: had the answer to that question at large, because it 587 00:28:44,156 --> 00:28:47,236 Speaker 1: would mean that, you know, I could forecast everyone's future. 588 00:28:47,596 --> 00:28:50,596 Speaker 1: I don't mean that'd be much more a financially lucrative 589 00:28:50,596 --> 00:28:54,196 Speaker 1: than running a podcast, right, yeah, yeah, definitely. But I 590 00:28:54,196 --> 00:28:59,076 Speaker 1: can say this, which is people reliably, they get it 591 00:28:59,116 --> 00:29:01,476 Speaker 1: wrong often how a change is going to affect them. 592 00:29:01,516 --> 00:29:03,356 Speaker 1: And you know, we talked a little bit before Larie 593 00:29:03,396 --> 00:29:06,676 Speaker 1: about how change doesn't happen in a vacuum. And so 594 00:29:06,716 --> 00:29:08,356 Speaker 1: there have been guests on my show who have come 595 00:29:08,396 --> 00:29:10,476 Speaker 1: on thinking that they were willing what was going to 596 00:29:10,516 --> 00:29:13,716 Speaker 1: be a positive change. They were absolutely certain that this 597 00:29:13,796 --> 00:29:15,516 Speaker 1: change they were going to introduce into their lives was 598 00:29:15,516 --> 00:29:17,636 Speaker 1: going to make them happier and better off, and what 599 00:29:17,676 --> 00:29:20,396 Speaker 1: they found afterwards is that that wasn't the case. So 600 00:29:20,436 --> 00:29:22,076 Speaker 1: a good example of this is that a woman named 601 00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:25,156 Speaker 1: Elma on my show and her lifelong goal was to 602 00:29:25,196 --> 00:29:28,236 Speaker 1: become thin, and she did it in five months. She 603 00:29:29,076 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 1: very unhealthily lost over one hundred pounds, and for a 604 00:29:32,596 --> 00:29:35,196 Speaker 1: short time, she thought that she was living her dream life, 605 00:29:35,236 --> 00:29:38,156 Speaker 1: and slowly she started to realize that she was becoming 606 00:29:38,156 --> 00:29:41,956 Speaker 1: a worse person. She was buying into standards of beauty 607 00:29:41,956 --> 00:29:43,836 Speaker 1: that she didn't want to buy into. She was becoming 608 00:29:43,836 --> 00:29:47,356 Speaker 1: more superficial, she was losing the boldness and a reverence 609 00:29:47,396 --> 00:29:50,316 Speaker 1: that she had had prior. And what she learned from 610 00:29:50,316 --> 00:29:53,196 Speaker 1: that experience is it's not like a magic trick where 611 00:29:53,236 --> 00:29:55,396 Speaker 1: you just get to walk through a mirror and you're 612 00:29:55,436 --> 00:29:58,436 Speaker 1: exactly the same Elma, with all the same psychology and 613 00:29:58,476 --> 00:30:00,796 Speaker 1: all the same mindsets, and you're just thin. Right, That's 614 00:30:00,836 --> 00:30:03,076 Speaker 1: not how it works, because as we talked about, we 615 00:30:03,116 --> 00:30:07,116 Speaker 1: are these complicated ecosystems. And so what her story taught 616 00:30:07,116 --> 00:30:10,516 Speaker 1: me is that we need to audit our change experiences. Right. 617 00:30:10,516 --> 00:30:12,876 Speaker 1: We cannot go in with too much confidence about it 618 00:30:12,876 --> 00:30:16,716 Speaker 1: either being positive or negative, because there will inevitably be 619 00:30:16,836 --> 00:30:19,836 Speaker 1: aspects of the change experience that surprise you in some way. 620 00:30:20,116 --> 00:30:22,596 Speaker 1: And so I think it's so important to approach change 621 00:30:22,596 --> 00:30:25,156 Speaker 1: with a profound amount of humility, to go through the 622 00:30:25,236 --> 00:30:28,516 Speaker 1: change thinking, Okay, I'm trying to you know, I'm taking 623 00:30:28,516 --> 00:30:31,996 Speaker 1: on this new job, or I'm investing in a new friendship. 624 00:30:32,276 --> 00:30:34,876 Speaker 1: Let me just have you know a mind how other 625 00:30:34,956 --> 00:30:37,916 Speaker 1: parts of me might be interacting with this change. And 626 00:30:37,956 --> 00:30:41,236 Speaker 1: I think through those auditing experiences you can eventually build 627 00:30:41,556 --> 00:30:46,436 Speaker 1: some intuitions about yourself and whether a change is likely 628 00:30:46,476 --> 00:30:48,956 Speaker 1: to end up being positive or negative or somewhere in 629 00:30:48,956 --> 00:30:51,116 Speaker 1: the middle, which is often how life works. Right. All 630 00:30:51,116 --> 00:30:53,756 Speaker 1: the happiness research shows that these what we believe to 631 00:30:53,796 --> 00:30:57,716 Speaker 1: be clearly good outcomes often carry some downsides and vice versa. Yeah, 632 00:30:57,756 --> 00:30:59,756 Speaker 1: I love the idea of audit too, because one of 633 00:30:59,796 --> 00:31:02,276 Speaker 1: the pieces of advice I've gotten for if you're thinking 634 00:31:02,316 --> 00:31:05,196 Speaker 1: about a change is to ask someone who's been through 635 00:31:05,236 --> 00:31:08,636 Speaker 1: that change, right, Like, you can't necessarily from your perspective 636 00:31:08,676 --> 00:31:11,596 Speaker 1: on that transformative experience, know what's going to happen on 637 00:31:11,636 --> 00:31:13,796 Speaker 1: the other side. But if you ask someone who's been 638 00:31:13,836 --> 00:31:15,476 Speaker 1: through it, they can tell you. You You know that, I 639 00:31:15,516 --> 00:31:18,316 Speaker 1: can say, you know, being someone who say, for example, 640 00:31:18,356 --> 00:31:20,356 Speaker 1: it became a head of college and taught a happiness class, 641 00:31:20,356 --> 00:31:22,316 Speaker 1: what are the pros and cons or that sort of thing, 642 00:31:22,596 --> 00:31:24,436 Speaker 1: that no one who had done that would like know 643 00:31:24,516 --> 00:31:26,996 Speaker 1: what that was. So, you know. The other thing, I've 644 00:31:27,036 --> 00:31:31,156 Speaker 1: also learned how universal the psychologies we can recruit are 645 00:31:31,316 --> 00:31:33,756 Speaker 1: in the face of very diverse changes. That's another thing 646 00:31:33,756 --> 00:31:37,076 Speaker 1: I've learned from this experience, which is if you're a 647 00:31:37,076 --> 00:31:40,196 Speaker 1: cancer patient, you might actually find the most resonance with 648 00:31:40,236 --> 00:31:42,756 Speaker 1: the person on my show who was going through a divorce, 649 00:31:43,036 --> 00:31:47,436 Speaker 1: because in both cases the loss felt similar and the 650 00:31:47,476 --> 00:31:50,356 Speaker 1: way in which their psychologies were recruited felt similar, and 651 00:31:50,356 --> 00:31:53,276 Speaker 1: they might feel less resonance in an episode that was 652 00:31:53,276 --> 00:31:56,036 Speaker 1: specifically about going through an illness. And I find that 653 00:31:56,076 --> 00:31:59,876 Speaker 1: really profound because it means that when listeners are going 654 00:31:59,876 --> 00:32:02,476 Speaker 1: through a big change, if they can't find someone who 655 00:32:02,476 --> 00:32:06,036 Speaker 1: has had you know that exact experience. And I know 656 00:32:06,116 --> 00:32:07,596 Speaker 1: that many of us can feel this way like no 657 00:32:07,596 --> 00:32:09,756 Speaker 1: one will understand what I'm going through one's been through 658 00:32:09,836 --> 00:32:13,756 Speaker 1: this specific thing like fear not because you can find 659 00:32:13,836 --> 00:32:16,636 Speaker 1: someone who has more of a mind meld with you 660 00:32:16,756 --> 00:32:19,116 Speaker 1: and may have gone through a vastly different change experience, 661 00:32:19,156 --> 00:32:22,036 Speaker 1: but can still share wisdom and insights about how they 662 00:32:22,116 --> 00:32:24,316 Speaker 1: managed it. Love it, and this idea of kind of 663 00:32:24,356 --> 00:32:26,716 Speaker 1: the shared demiss that we get out of change, this 664 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:29,556 Speaker 1: idea of going through collective change gets to the next 665 00:32:29,596 --> 00:32:33,036 Speaker 1: question that someone submitted through Facebook, which is, these times 666 00:32:33,036 --> 00:32:36,076 Speaker 1: are filled with both uncertainty and change, two things I 667 00:32:36,116 --> 00:32:39,636 Speaker 1: find extremely stressful. What are some strategies to deal with 668 00:32:39,676 --> 00:32:42,436 Speaker 1: both of these kinds of things? So uncertainty and change, 669 00:32:42,476 --> 00:32:44,796 Speaker 1: what are some strategies you know you'd used to deal 670 00:32:44,876 --> 00:32:47,436 Speaker 1: with kind of these things? Yeah, I mean, I think, 671 00:32:48,076 --> 00:32:51,396 Speaker 1: as I mentioned earlier, you know, uncertainty and change were 672 00:32:51,396 --> 00:32:54,196 Speaker 1: the motivations for creating a slight change of plans, because 673 00:32:54,556 --> 00:32:58,516 Speaker 1: I also find those two things extremely stressful. One of 674 00:32:58,556 --> 00:33:00,956 Speaker 1: the tactics that I use. One of the strategies is 675 00:33:00,956 --> 00:33:03,956 Speaker 1: something you alluded to earlier, which is that we reliably 676 00:33:04,036 --> 00:33:09,356 Speaker 1: underestimate our psychological immune system. Right, we reliably underestimate just 677 00:33:09,436 --> 00:33:12,516 Speaker 1: how resilient we will be in the face of a change, 678 00:33:12,756 --> 00:33:16,036 Speaker 1: and in the moment, it can be very hard to 679 00:33:16,076 --> 00:33:18,476 Speaker 1: get your emotions to appreciate that. I think it's easy 680 00:33:18,516 --> 00:33:21,036 Speaker 1: to intellectualize in the moment. I know I'm this resilient, 681 00:33:21,076 --> 00:33:23,036 Speaker 1: but I sure as hell don't feel that way, right. 682 00:33:23,396 --> 00:33:25,716 Speaker 1: But I think you know, if you think it enough times, 683 00:33:26,236 --> 00:33:29,876 Speaker 1: over time, your emotions will catch up to that intellectual feeling. 684 00:33:29,876 --> 00:33:31,556 Speaker 1: And I found that to be true in my own life, 685 00:33:31,556 --> 00:33:34,636 Speaker 1: which is in the moment, I'll tell myself, Okay, Maya, 686 00:33:34,716 --> 00:33:36,956 Speaker 1: you are a cognitive scientist. You do know what all 687 00:33:36,996 --> 00:33:39,116 Speaker 1: the research says. I know you don't believe it right now, 688 00:33:39,116 --> 00:33:42,316 Speaker 1: because the emotions feel so raw and you feel so vulnerable, 689 00:33:42,676 --> 00:33:45,556 Speaker 1: but just remember that we do actually have this incredible 690 00:33:45,556 --> 00:33:49,036 Speaker 1: immune system. And I have found that over time these 691 00:33:49,116 --> 00:33:52,276 Speaker 1: changes have started to feel slightly less volatile as a 692 00:33:52,316 --> 00:33:56,956 Speaker 1: result of cultivating that mindset. What strategies have you used, Larry, Yeah, Well, 693 00:33:56,956 --> 00:34:00,116 Speaker 1: I think one of the things I've really used, especially recently, 694 00:34:00,156 --> 00:34:03,156 Speaker 1: to deal with the uncertainty part of this equation is 695 00:34:03,196 --> 00:34:06,436 Speaker 1: really taking time to notice and experience what that does 696 00:34:06,476 --> 00:34:07,996 Speaker 1: to me, right, I mean I think part of the 697 00:34:07,996 --> 00:34:10,836 Speaker 1: reason uncertainty and change you're scary is because we think, well, 698 00:34:10,876 --> 00:34:13,156 Speaker 1: it might make us sad, or it might make us fearful, 699 00:34:13,276 --> 00:34:15,436 Speaker 1: or it might make us anxious, and we feel like 700 00:34:15,476 --> 00:34:17,876 Speaker 1: we just can't deal with those emotions. We want to 701 00:34:17,916 --> 00:34:20,756 Speaker 1: run away from those emotions. But you know, the research 702 00:34:20,756 --> 00:34:23,996 Speaker 1: shows that if you just take time to accept those emotions, 703 00:34:24,076 --> 00:34:26,196 Speaker 1: like hang out with them for a while, you know, 704 00:34:26,236 --> 00:34:29,516 Speaker 1: maybe really just like ride the wave. On our podcast, 705 00:34:29,556 --> 00:34:31,756 Speaker 1: we talk a lot about urge surfing. So I'm just 706 00:34:31,796 --> 00:34:33,716 Speaker 1: gonna sit with this sadness, you know, for a couple 707 00:34:33,756 --> 00:34:35,076 Speaker 1: of minutes, or I'm just going to sit with this 708 00:34:35,116 --> 00:34:36,836 Speaker 1: anxiety for a couple of minutes. It's not going to 709 00:34:36,916 --> 00:34:39,796 Speaker 1: feel great. But the you know, the research tends to 710 00:34:39,836 --> 00:34:42,396 Speaker 1: show that emotions work like a wave. It'll crest and 711 00:34:42,476 --> 00:34:44,716 Speaker 1: kind of go up, but then it'll subside and go 712 00:34:44,756 --> 00:34:48,316 Speaker 1: down and you'll get through it. And so counterintuitively, one 713 00:34:48,356 --> 00:34:50,236 Speaker 1: of the ways I deal with the negative emotions that 714 00:34:50,276 --> 00:34:54,556 Speaker 1: come with uncertainty and change is to really sit with them, 715 00:34:54,636 --> 00:34:56,356 Speaker 1: you know. And I've been you know, you were talking 716 00:34:56,356 --> 00:34:58,676 Speaker 1: about personal issues that you're going through. I have a 717 00:34:58,676 --> 00:35:01,196 Speaker 1: really close friend who's going through a really scary health 718 00:35:01,236 --> 00:35:03,956 Speaker 1: diagnosis right now. That's come with a lot of uncertainty, 719 00:35:03,996 --> 00:35:06,116 Speaker 1: a lot of fear for me, and I've really just 720 00:35:06,196 --> 00:35:08,716 Speaker 1: done some like quick meditations where I just sit with 721 00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:11,076 Speaker 1: that and notice how it feels and kind of let 722 00:35:11,076 --> 00:35:13,756 Speaker 1: it ride out. And oddly enough, you can get through 723 00:35:13,836 --> 00:35:15,836 Speaker 1: negative emotions and kind of sitting with them makes you 724 00:35:15,876 --> 00:35:18,276 Speaker 1: realize like, actually, I'm strong enough to hang out with 725 00:35:18,316 --> 00:35:20,596 Speaker 1: some sadness for a little bit, like I'll be okay. 726 00:35:21,156 --> 00:35:24,076 Speaker 1: And that for me has been incredibly powerful. Yeah, I 727 00:35:24,116 --> 00:35:26,676 Speaker 1: love hearing that, and I'm so sorry about your friend. 728 00:35:27,276 --> 00:35:29,596 Speaker 1: I absolutely think that's right. And the more you sit 729 00:35:29,636 --> 00:35:32,076 Speaker 1: in negative emotions, the more they lose power over you, 730 00:35:32,316 --> 00:35:34,956 Speaker 1: and that's the most powerful part of it all. I 731 00:35:34,996 --> 00:35:38,116 Speaker 1: interviewed a guy named Ramsey for a slight change and 732 00:35:38,716 --> 00:35:41,716 Speaker 1: this guy, when he was twenty, woke up with profound tinitis, 733 00:35:41,876 --> 00:35:44,916 Speaker 1: so a high pitched, high frequency ringing in his ear 734 00:35:45,676 --> 00:35:48,316 Speaker 1: that has been permanent ever since. It is a permanent 735 00:35:48,356 --> 00:35:52,396 Speaker 1: fixture of his life that every waking moment of every 736 00:35:52,436 --> 00:35:56,476 Speaker 1: single day he hears a blaring siren in his left ear. 737 00:35:57,036 --> 00:36:01,036 Speaker 1: And he thought, initially the antidote to this is a 738 00:36:01,076 --> 00:36:03,636 Speaker 1: medical solution, right, how do I fix this? How do 739 00:36:03,676 --> 00:36:06,636 Speaker 1: I fix this? And over time he actually put what 740 00:36:06,676 --> 00:36:09,756 Speaker 1: you've just said into practice, which is, let me be 741 00:36:09,876 --> 00:36:12,556 Speaker 1: at peace with this sound, let me embrace it, let 742 00:36:12,556 --> 00:36:15,516 Speaker 1: me reinterpret this sound is not an enemy that I'm 743 00:36:15,556 --> 00:36:18,236 Speaker 1: trying to swing a baseball bat at, but as just 744 00:36:18,356 --> 00:36:20,876 Speaker 1: a presence in my life that I acknowledge and I 745 00:36:20,916 --> 00:36:23,196 Speaker 1: accept it. Sometimes I don't love it, but I don't 746 00:36:23,236 --> 00:36:27,876 Speaker 1: hate it either, And that was actually his cure. His 747 00:36:28,036 --> 00:36:31,596 Speaker 1: care to his tenitis did not have medical tones to it. 748 00:36:31,596 --> 00:36:35,116 Speaker 1: It was a psychological shift in how he perceived this 749 00:36:35,316 --> 00:36:39,036 Speaker 1: intrusive thing that had happened in his brain. And he said, today, 750 00:36:39,116 --> 00:36:41,396 Speaker 1: you know, it just doesn't have power over him in 751 00:36:41,436 --> 00:36:43,316 Speaker 1: the way that it did before. It doesn't bother him, 752 00:36:43,316 --> 00:36:45,156 Speaker 1: doesn't irk him in the way he said, even now. 753 00:36:45,196 --> 00:36:46,756 Speaker 1: You know, I can close my eyes and it's there 754 00:36:46,836 --> 00:36:49,516 Speaker 1: and I hear. It hasn't changed in its intensity at 755 00:36:49,556 --> 00:36:53,156 Speaker 1: all over the years, but my relationship with it has changed. 756 00:36:53,636 --> 00:36:55,476 Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, if he can get if 757 00:36:55,516 --> 00:36:57,716 Speaker 1: he can make peace with the blaring siren in his head, 758 00:36:57,756 --> 00:37:00,396 Speaker 1: like I can deal with these feelings of sadness, you know, 759 00:37:00,756 --> 00:37:02,316 Speaker 1: And I think it's so powerful, and it might be 760 00:37:02,396 --> 00:37:04,876 Speaker 1: a great way to sort of end with this idea 761 00:37:04,916 --> 00:37:07,836 Speaker 1: of allowing, you know, I think once you get to 762 00:37:07,876 --> 00:37:10,596 Speaker 1: the point where you can allow some change in your life, 763 00:37:10,796 --> 00:37:13,596 Speaker 1: even if it's unwanted change, what you often find is 764 00:37:13,596 --> 00:37:17,396 Speaker 1: that it leads to more growth, more resilience, more positives 765 00:37:17,436 --> 00:37:20,396 Speaker 1: than you really expect. And so Maya thank you so 766 00:37:20,476 --> 00:37:23,036 Speaker 1: much for coming on this podcast with me and talking 767 00:37:23,036 --> 00:37:26,156 Speaker 1: with me about the science of change. Listeners, I hope 768 00:37:26,196 --> 00:37:29,236 Speaker 1: it's changed your mind about change to listen to this, 769 00:37:29,596 --> 00:37:32,836 Speaker 1: and that you've very very meta and that you've gotten 770 00:37:32,836 --> 00:37:34,796 Speaker 1: some tips that you can use to feel a little 771 00:37:34,836 --> 00:37:37,556 Speaker 1: bit happier. Well. As you know, Laurie, I love any 772 00:37:37,596 --> 00:37:39,316 Speaker 1: excuse to chat with you, so thank you so much 773 00:37:39,356 --> 00:37:41,556 Speaker 1: for having me on. Awesome. Thanks so much. Thanks everyone, 774 00:37:41,676 --> 00:37:48,276 Speaker 1: We'll see you soon. The Happiness Lab is co written 775 00:37:48,276 --> 00:37:51,276 Speaker 1: and produced by Ryan Dilley. Our original music was composed 776 00:37:51,316 --> 00:37:54,676 Speaker 1: by Zachary Silver, with additional scoring, mixing and mastering by 777 00:37:54,716 --> 00:37:58,876 Speaker 1: Evan Biola. Joseph Fridman checked our facts. Sophie Crane mckibbon 778 00:37:59,036 --> 00:38:02,956 Speaker 1: edited our scripts. Emily and Vaughan offered additional production support. 779 00:38:03,596 --> 00:38:08,316 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Mila Belle, Carly mcgliori, Heather Fame, Maggie Taylor, 780 00:38:08,676 --> 00:38:13,836 Speaker 1: Danielle Lucarne, Maya Kanig, Nicole Morano, Eric Sandler, Royston Baserve, 781 00:38:14,196 --> 00:38:17,796 Speaker 1: Jacob Weisberg, and my agent, Ben Dars that Pinus Lab 782 00:38:17,876 --> 00:38:20,356 Speaker 1: is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. And meet doctor 783 00:38:20,436 --> 00:38:21,196 Speaker 1: Laurie Sanders