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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece.

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Speaker 2: A pair of pantyhose was found. Who cares?

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Speaker 1: Who cares about a pair of discarded pantyhose? Well, I do,

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Speaker 1: especially when it's tied in a ligature and it's found

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Speaker 1: near the stomping grounds of one of the most prolific

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Speaker 1: serial killers in the United States. At this time, will

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Speaker 1: one or more victims be connected to b t K

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Speaker 1: bind torture kill? That's right, it's not over yet now.

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Speaker 1: Many believe, including myself, the two young ladies, one as

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Speaker 1: young as sixteen years old, have fallen prey to the

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Speaker 1: former dogcatcher turned serial killer Dennis Raider. I Nancy Grace,

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Speaker 1: this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us

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Speaker 1: here at Foxination in series six, sem one eleven. Don't

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Speaker 1: know much about Dennis Raider, the church deacon, dogcatcher turned

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Speaker 1: serial killer, so hungry for fame, his hands literally dripping

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Speaker 1: with blood, that he taunts police by contacting the media.

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Speaker 2: Take a listen to BTK in his own words.

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Speaker 3: Did he in fact suffocate them the eye as result

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Speaker 3: of this is not right away? No, sir, he didn't.

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Speaker 4: What happened well after that, I did miss this, Soltero.

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Speaker 4: I had never strangled anyone before, So I really don't

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Speaker 4: know how much pressure you had to put on a

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Speaker 4: person or how long it would take.

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Speaker 3: But was she also tied up there?

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Speaker 4: Yes, you got both her hands and their feet were

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Speaker 4: tied up.

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Speaker 3: She was on the bed.

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Speaker 4: Where were the children, Well, Josephine was on the bed

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Speaker 4: and Junior was on the floor this time.

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Speaker 3: So we're talking first of all about Joseph Otaro. So

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Speaker 3: you had put the bag over his head and tied

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Speaker 3: it and he did not die right away? Can you

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Speaker 3: tell me what happened in regards to.

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Speaker 4: Joseph He moved over real quickly, and I think tore

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Speaker 4: a hole in the bag, and I could tell that

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Speaker 4: he was having some problems there At that time, the

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Speaker 4: whole family just went They went panicked on me.

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Speaker 3: So I worked pretty quick, You worked pretty quick.

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Speaker 4: Well, I mean I strangled missus Otaro and she went

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Speaker 4: out or passed out. I thought she was dead. She

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Speaker 4: passed out, and I strangled Josephine. She passed out, and

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Speaker 4: I thought she was dead, and then I went over

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Speaker 4: and put and then put a bag on the.

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Speaker 1: Junior said, why is this man still alive? Why is

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Speaker 1: the breathing air on our earth. Did you hear him?

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Speaker 1: He is describing the murders of an entire family as

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Speaker 1: casually as if he is Fries and French fries in

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Speaker 1: the deep Fry. I got to work pretty quickly, including

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Speaker 1: children killing children. That's BTK, bind, torture, kill, and it's

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Speaker 1: not over yet.

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Speaker 2: Take a listen to our friends at kryl online.

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Speaker 5: When Dennis Reader was arrested in two thousand and five,

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Speaker 5: lots of documentation was found by the Wichita Police, Documentation

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Speaker 5: in his own writing journals in an unpublished book manuscript,

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Speaker 5: The man You Script is thought to be a description

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Speaker 5: of the murders BTK viewed as successful. There were polaroids

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Speaker 5: of the victims and of Raider dressed like his victims,

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Speaker 5: and in the state their murders occur bound, partially buried,

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Speaker 5: or hanging upside down. The Osage County Sheriff's Office investigators

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Speaker 5: have poured over raiders writing looking for links to local

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Speaker 5: unsolved crimes, and the information inside led police to search

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Speaker 5: the property where Raider and his family lived. During their

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Speaker 5: search of the property, investigators found trophies from at least

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Speaker 5: one woman. Investigators also found chains apparently used for bondage

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Speaker 5: along with sea clips. Sea clips can shorten chains or

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Speaker 5: be used to secure a person's legs or feet. We

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Speaker 5: know that a pantyhose ligature was found. Other items found

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Speaker 5: have not yet been described publicly.

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Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to make sense of

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Speaker 1: what we know right now, as I believe at least

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Speaker 1: two more women will soon be identified as being murder

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Speaker 1: victims a Dennis Raider. Before I go to the whole panel,

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Speaker 1: I want to go to a special guest joining me

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Speaker 1: right now, Sheriff Eddie verdin O, Sage County Sheriff. Sheriff,

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Speaker 1: thank you so much for being with us. I know

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Speaker 1: there's a lot you can't tell me, but could I

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Speaker 1: clarify what I just heard from our friends at crime

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Speaker 1: Online because it was stated so matter a factly, so calmly.

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Speaker 2: It was like a weather report.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, fair to middling clouds out there, it might start

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Speaker 1: raining tomorrow afternoon around four o'clock. And Raider addressed like

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Speaker 1: his victims in the state their murders occurred. What could

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Speaker 1: you explain, Sheriff, what is meant by bt K? Dennis

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Speaker 1: Raider would dress like his victims and in the quote

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Speaker 1: state their murders occurred.

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Speaker 6: You know this. The further and further you get into information,

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Speaker 6: you know, the darker and darker side of things that

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Speaker 6: you see. There's so much disturbing information that has never

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Speaker 6: been released, never been seen. You know in the book

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Speaker 6: you were describing that he was writing at the time

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Speaker 6: of his rest and unfortunately didn't have finished because it

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Speaker 6: might give us more answers. But there's a chapter thirteen

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Speaker 6: that pretty pretty much sums up and part of that thirteen,

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Speaker 6: you know, Dennis says no one will ever know the

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Speaker 6: number of victims, and there's probably some that he can't

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Speaker 6: even remember, and he signs it off see you in hell, Well.

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Speaker 2: He'll be there.

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Speaker 1: I hope I'm not. I hope I don't see him there,

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Speaker 1: but he will definitely be there. But I notice you

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Speaker 1: sidestepped that question, Sheriff. Do you not want to divulge

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Speaker 1: information that could touch on current investigations?

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Speaker 6: I would, I would absolutely, or anything that I can

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Speaker 6: possibly share, you know, I can. I can tell you

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Speaker 6: for sure our investigation is moving forward, that we've obtained

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Speaker 6: a lot of information, a lot of leads, and are

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Speaker 6: are still working every day possible. Of course, we've got

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Speaker 6: current crimes going and got a balance between the current

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Speaker 6: cases and in the cold cases. But we have have

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Speaker 6: done thousands and thousands of ours on this case, and

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Speaker 6: you know what led us here was was good, good leads,

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Speaker 6: good evidence that keep, you know, leading us further and

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Speaker 6: further in And while we were looking at things for

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Speaker 6: our case, of course, we've we've come upon information that

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Speaker 6: we believe is related to other cases. And as we

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Speaker 6: develop that information, we reach out to law enforcement that

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Speaker 6: are working those cases, pass that information on and you

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Speaker 6: hope that that's something that could lead them further in

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Speaker 6: their investigations and hopefully we'll get to the answers. You know.

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Speaker 6: For instance, the map that I'm sure you're aware of

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Speaker 6: that emailed to police back when he was tormenting him

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Speaker 6: basically showed mileage from Wichita at different locations where he

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Speaker 6: had committed crimes. And in that map there's one that

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Speaker 6: made us really go into that because there's one of

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Speaker 6: fifty five miles, which is just above our county in Kansas.

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Speaker 6: So I've got one really dedicated investigator that has devoted

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Speaker 6: I couldn't tell you how much time, but we wanted

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Speaker 6: to figure out what fifty five was because information in

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Speaker 6: our investigation leads us to believe from several different areas

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Speaker 6: that our victim was placed in the stall of an

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Speaker 6: old barn, and we got that from writings that he created.

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Speaker 6: But additionally, back when this crime occurred, one of the

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Speaker 6: deputies received an anonymous call at night from a mail

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Speaker 6: who told them that they could find her in an

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Speaker 6: old barn up along the Kansas Oklahoma border. So when

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Speaker 6: you find writings of his from seventy six from a

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Speaker 6: project he calls bad Laundry Day and marks in chapter nine,

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Speaker 6: which is a chapter in his book of the actual murders,

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Speaker 6: and then you find additional information that cooperates that, and

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Speaker 6: then you do an interview with him, and he tells

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Speaker 6: you things that he can't know. And the example of

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Speaker 6: that is my first interview was to just simply go

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Speaker 6: see if a background information visit with him, nothing about

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Speaker 6: our crime, didn't tell him any details of anything, just

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Speaker 6: told him I was looking an old case from seventy six,

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Speaker 6: wanted information. You know. He started that conversation off with

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Speaker 6: I only killed the ten that I confess to, So

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Speaker 6: whatever you think I did, I didn't do. But if

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Speaker 6: I can help you, I'd be glad to. So I said, well,

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Speaker 6: you know, I just want to know about you. And

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Speaker 6: we started at age three and went to where he's

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Speaker 6: at now. He went through nine of the ten murders

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Speaker 6: in details. He went through every detail of his life

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Speaker 6: from you know, age three was a memory that he

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Speaker 6: described that was fair to graphic and torturing animals and

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Speaker 6: burying him onto you know, his boy scout time is

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Speaker 6: his college time, and then on to the military. He

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Speaker 6: talked about, you know, bondage and prostitutes and stuff in Okinawa, Japan,

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Speaker 6: returned to Wichita, you know, ended up getting married, going

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Speaker 6: through his jobs, and then some of the things that

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Speaker 6: set him in motion to lead him to the ten

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Speaker 6: murders that he can passed.

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Speaker 2: To you know, Sheriff.

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Speaker 1: I'm thinking today about two potential victims that I feel

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Speaker 1: very strongly were killed by BTK, Cynthia Cindi don Kenny

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Speaker 1: and Shawna Beth Garber. But I would put money on

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Speaker 1: a sheriff if you went to Okinawa that there would

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Speaker 1: be missing people women that were murdered by BTK while

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Speaker 1: he was there. The first question I asked, guys, you're

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Speaker 1: hearing Sheriff Eddie Verdon out of Osage County, the elected

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Speaker 1: shareff who is still working BTK.

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Speaker 2: You know a lot of people don't get it, and

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Speaker 2: it's it can.

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Speaker 1: Be exhaustive when you get, as I did in the

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Speaker 1: DA's office, one hundred new cases a week, and I

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Speaker 1: had older cases that were still not prosecuted, that still

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Speaker 1: needed work.

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Speaker 2: But every week you get one hundred new cases.

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Speaker 1: And it's a lot, and you're trying to do your best,

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Speaker 1: and older cases do get set back.

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Speaker 2: On the back burner. It happens.

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace Cheryl mccollumb joining me, the

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Speaker 1: founder of the Cold Case Research Institute.

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Speaker 2: You can find her at coldcasecrimes dot org.

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Speaker 1: She's a forensic expert and she's host of a hit

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Speaker 1: series is called Zone seven. You can find that a

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Speaker 1: crime onliner at all your podcast sites. Cheryl McCollum, I

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Speaker 1: want to retouch and I'm leading up to the pentyhose ligature.

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Speaker 1: I want to retouch on the fact that BTK and

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Speaker 1: of course we'll have to have a strength way in

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Speaker 1: all this. Doctor Bethany would dress up like his victims

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Speaker 1: in the state they were at the time of their murders.

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Speaker 1: That can be bound, that can be partially buried, even

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Speaker 1: hanging upside down. Explain, Eryl, it.

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Speaker 7: Is so important that we understand what was happening then.

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Speaker 7: And he is not only recreating. He has given us

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Speaker 7: his mo He's given us his signatures, just like he

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Speaker 7: did with his moniker BTK. He is telling us this

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Speaker 7: is what I did, this is the order that I

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Speaker 7: did it in, this is the way that I did it.

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Speaker 7: It is actually assisting law enforcement and not only understanding

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Speaker 7: what these photographs mean.

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Speaker 1: Okay, could I get you out of the weeds and

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Speaker 1: back in the middle of the road. Did he or

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Speaker 1: did he not take photos of himself dressed up like

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Speaker 1: the victims in the same positions.

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Speaker 2: They were when he killed them. That's a yes, no, Cheryl.

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Speaker 8: That is a yes absolutely.

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Speaker 2: Ki Lord, you know what.

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Speaker 1: I'm a JD, not a DDS, but I believe I

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Speaker 1: can pull a tooth with the right pliers to doctor

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Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall joining us a renownced psychoanalyst out of LA.

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Speaker 1: You can find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Bethany, did you hear what Sheriff Verdon just said?

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Speaker 1: You go to try to he goes to try to

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Speaker 1: talk to raider. I ain't even call him BTK, although

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Speaker 1: that's his most famous moniker because he gave that name

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Speaker 1: to himself. He went through all this drama deciding what

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Speaker 1: should the media call me? How about world class? A

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Speaker 1: hole umber one? But that said, did you hear Vernon say,

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Speaker 1: excuse me, Sherifford say that he goes to talk to

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Speaker 1: Rader and he starts all the way back at his

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Speaker 1: first memory, talk about narcissism.

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Speaker 2: Now again, don't listen to me.

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Speaker 1: I don't know what I'm talking about when I throw

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Speaker 1: out a word like narcissism, but I got a pretty

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Speaker 1: good idea.

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Speaker 2: It fits him. Talk. If somebody goes, how do you

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Speaker 2: do one? What's going on?

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Speaker 1: You don't start with your first memory and go all

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Speaker 1: the way through elementary and middle and boy scouts blah blah.

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Speaker 1: But he did because it's all about him, Bethany.

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Speaker 9: It's all about him.

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Speaker 10: He is supremely interested in himself. And can you imagine

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Speaker 10: the investigator's eyes glazing over.

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Speaker 1: When you wait a minute, Bethany, because my fingers are tingling.

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Speaker 2: I want to put my hands around his neck so badly.

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Speaker 1: Sheriff how did you sit there and not just punch

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Speaker 1: him right in the mouth?

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Speaker 6: Well, you know you've been here. Your goal is to

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Speaker 6: solve your case and get that information, and we have

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Speaker 6: to go through a lot of situations to get to

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Speaker 6: the truth.

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Speaker 1: I shouldn't even ask that because you might say something like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I really wanted to. I withdraw that question back to

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany. I don't want the sheriff to burn out.

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Speaker 1: He really wanted to punch him right in the mouth. Okay,

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Speaker 1: doctor Bethany, what is that? He goes, Okay, let's talk

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Speaker 1: about all your victims. Instead he starts talking about himself.

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Speaker 10: Well, I mean, obviously, it's what we call in a

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Speaker 10: way auto erotic, meaning all the eroticism, the interest, the

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Speaker 10: excitement is directed back against himself. And this is a perversion.

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Speaker 10: It's not a well known perversion, but this is why

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Speaker 10: after he killed his victims in whatever state of dress

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Speaker 10: or undressed or being bound or hanging upside down, he

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Speaker 10: would recreate himself as the victim. Because he would create

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Speaker 10: these I think we would call them the vignettes sex

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Speaker 10: murder vignettes, with a mother and a dad and a

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Speaker 10: child who opposed them. He would do all kinds of things,

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Speaker 10: but then he would put himself in various positions within

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Speaker 10: the vignette. So now he's the dad, Now he's the child.

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Speaker 10: Now he's wearing women's pantyhose. Now he's hanging upside down.

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Speaker 10: And remember, Nancy, these crimes are they're so seconfully.

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Speaker 1: I'm looking at the photos right now, Dale Carson joining me,

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Speaker 1: high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, and the reason I

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Speaker 1: have him on sheriff for and you'll appreciate this. He's

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Speaker 1: a former fed an agent with the FBI, former Miami Dade,

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Speaker 1: author of Arrest Proof Yourself. He's at Dale Carson Law

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Speaker 1: dot com. Dale have you looked at these photos? I'm

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Speaker 1: looking at the one right now where he looks like

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Speaker 1: he's got on a woman's bra and his hair. I'll

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Speaker 1: have to look up sun down because he he's hanging

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Speaker 1: upside He is actually hanging himself. Have you seen these

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Speaker 1: Jackie upside down? He's got on I think a woman's

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Speaker 1: bra and some kind of like a cameousol over it

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Speaker 1: and lingerie, yeah, lingerie and makeup makeup, and he's gagged

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Speaker 1: himself with something black and his hands. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how he took the picture, and his feet up on

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Speaker 1: like a tree tied to the top of a tree and.

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Speaker 2: His hands are tied behind him.

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Speaker 11: I mean, really, this was done before the time of

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Speaker 11: photograph editing that we can do on our cameras today

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Speaker 11: and iPhones. I mean it took some skill and energy

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Speaker 11: to do that, which indicates the level of intensity that

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Speaker 11: he placed in this behavior. I mean, it's pretty striking.

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Speaker 11: And the more complex it is, and of course you

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Speaker 11: all know.

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Speaker 1: That here he is in women's and women's hose, all

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Speaker 1: tied up with his face covered.

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Speaker 11: Right, And the more complex it is, the more ritualized

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Speaker 11: it is, longer he's been engaged in that behavior, which

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Speaker 11: argues that there are plenty more victims than what we

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Speaker 11: know of today.

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Speaker 1: You know what, and everybody please jump in, especially you

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Speaker 1: share Vernon with me right now to want to Bollinger

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Speaker 1: a very dear friend of a thenteen girl that I

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Speaker 1: believe was one of btk's victims. He has not been

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Speaker 1: formally charged, and that's what we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: once I can get off these photos I'm looking at

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Speaker 1: to wanna when you think about the mockery that he

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Speaker 1: has made of these victims by dressing up in their

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Speaker 1: clothes or like them and restaging their horrible deaths that

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Speaker 1: he inflicted and taking pictures of himself. He's basically mocking

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Speaker 1: what he did to the victims. And you think of

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Speaker 1: your little friend Cindy's.

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Speaker 12: Anti it thinks that he's just an evil man's Nancy.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand what. Why is he still alive? Why

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Speaker 1: did I miss Sheriff Verdon? Why didn't he get the

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Speaker 1: death penalty.

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Speaker 6: I'll tell you the answer to that is the only

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Speaker 6: ten murders that he eventually confessed to, whereas during the

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Speaker 6: time period, Kansas did not have the death penalty.

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Speaker 2: Well you've got it now, don't you.

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Speaker 6: And in addition to that, he did not want to

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Speaker 6: reveal things that he did outside of Wichita because if

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Speaker 6: that came out, then the surrounding states that had similar

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Speaker 6: crimes would look at him and put it together. And

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Speaker 6: those states did have the death penalty. I've got recordings

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Speaker 6: of him talking to reporters and even describing to them

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Speaker 6: in one of the recent serial killing cases that he

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Speaker 6: was visiting with a reporter about that. You've got to

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Speaker 6: watch those western states because they've got the death penalty.

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Speaker 6: Some of them still have hanging on the book.

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Speaker 1: Hanging is too good for him. Guys, take us an

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Speaker 1: our cut ar fens kWh.

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Speaker 13: The house that BTK once called home was torn down

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Speaker 13: in two thousand and seven, and it was an empty lot.

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Speaker 13: But investigators came into this lot and dug up this

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Speaker 13: sidewalk looking.

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Speaker 14: For evidence of an old cold case. A lot that

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Speaker 14: was empty until Tuesday morning, when investigators from Oklahoma moved

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Speaker 14: on to the property, pulling up sidewalks and digging, digging

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Speaker 14: for evidence. According to Osage County, Oklahoma Sheriff's Office, for

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Speaker 14: cold cases involving murders and missing persons possibly connected to

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Speaker 14: Dennis Raider.

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Speaker 2: And there's a reason they're doing that. Listen to our

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Speaker 2: cut forty eight.

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Speaker 1: This is my friend now, Carrie Rawson, btk's daughter, And

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Speaker 1: don't hold it against her what her father did.

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Speaker 2: He was a devil straight from hell to live with.

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Speaker 1: And it's amazing to me she and her mother lived

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Speaker 1: through life with BTK.

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Speaker 2: Don't hold it against her.

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Speaker 1: Listen to what she says that this is why this

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Speaker 1: is so important the panty hoose.

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Speaker 2: Listen.

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Speaker 15: The first day after or the first evening, even after

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Speaker 15: my father was arrested, the FBI called us and said

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Speaker 15: they had found evidence under our floorboards, so he had

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Speaker 15: driver's license up. Several of his victims, he had jewelry

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Speaker 15: that he had taken from their homes after he murdered them.

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Speaker 15: Those were his late most prized possessions. And he had

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Speaker 15: carved out underneath the floorboards a place through this evidence

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Speaker 15: in our hallway where we wrote out tornadoes and that

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Speaker 15: had been going on since the seventies.

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Speaker 1: And listen to this. Not only did he keep souvenirs

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Speaker 1: off the women, the men, and the children that he murdered,

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Speaker 1: then he dress up like them hose for selfies that

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Speaker 1: he could look back on over and over and over.

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Speaker 1: He kept kill kits, much like Israel Keys, another serial killer.

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Speaker 1: Let's not cut forty nine.

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Speaker 2: He had hit kits.

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Speaker 15: And so we're seeing with rex Huerman like handcuffs. My

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Speaker 15: father had like fannyback fanny packs with like handcuffs and

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Speaker 15: rope ties like bondage gare bandanas. In hindsight, I actually

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Speaker 15: did see my father's hit kit from the eighty five

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Speaker 15: murder down the street. It was a bowling bag. It

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Speaker 15: was like he didn't bowl, and so that was weird

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Speaker 15: in hindsight. But at the time, my dad just had

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Speaker 15: a lot of weird oddity bags around him.

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Speaker 1: Two special guests joining us along with Tijuana Bolinger, friend

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Speaker 1: of Cindy McKinney Sheriff Eddie Verdon elect to cheerriff out

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Speaker 1: of Osage County Sheriff. You had a really interesting story

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Speaker 1: about a conversation you had about him storing these keel k.

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Speaker 6: You know, I've had a lot of very disturbing conversations

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Speaker 6: with him.

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Speaker 5: But.

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Speaker 6: What led us to that particular spot. You know, we

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Speaker 6: were lucky enough to obtain some of the information from

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Speaker 6: Wichita after my first initial background visit with him, and

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Speaker 6: you know, in that visit, we were just trying to

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Speaker 6: see if he had any ties area, to see if

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Speaker 6: he was a suspect. And of course you know the

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Speaker 6: reason for that. She worked at laundry matt and there

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Speaker 6: was bank being built right across the street. And you know,

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Speaker 6: at that time ad T had eighty percent of all

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Speaker 6: the commercial alarms in the United States. So, knowing from

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Speaker 6: from previously going through this cold case, when when I

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Speaker 6: learned that he was an a D ten stallar, I

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Speaker 6: wondered could he have been participating in the alarm system

390
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Speaker 6: going in that bank across the street spot at her

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Speaker 6: and been there, And then as I did more, did

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Speaker 6: again and learned that he was at the Boy Scouts.

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Speaker 6: Pa Usca is where the Boy Scouts started. We have museums,

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Speaker 6: you know, more dig and reveal the truth from Wichita.

395
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Speaker 6: In the time he was in the Scouts hisself were

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Speaker 6: in Pasca and their camp was up along the Oklahoma

397
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Speaker 6: Kansas border in north of Sedan, so all those were

398
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Speaker 6: in But I cut him off after learning how familiar

399
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Speaker 6: he told me about all the towns north of us.

400
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Speaker 6: He's very familiar with the Flynn Hills and things that

401
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Speaker 6: a lot of the locals don't even know. So when

402
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Speaker 6: I go talk to him, I'm not trying to I

403
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 6: give him no information about my case other than I'm

404
00:25:46,960 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 6: looking at an old case from seventy six. And when

405
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Speaker 6: I stopped the interview because I know I'm going to

406
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Speaker 6: have to dig further, he one of the things he

407
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Speaker 6: said was, would you like to know what one of

408
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Speaker 6: my favorite fantasies was that I never got to do?

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Speaker 6: And I said, sure, go ahead, and he said, I

410
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Speaker 6: always wanted to kidnap a girl from a laundry mat.

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Speaker 6: And of course, you know how shocking that was, because

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Speaker 6: the odds of him saying that would be a million

413
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Speaker 6: to one, if even not higher. And I of course

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Speaker 6: came back at him, trying not to show any emotion,

415
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Speaker 6: and said, you know, you just told me about you know,

416
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Speaker 6: nine murders and going into the tenth where you ambushed

417
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Speaker 6: people in their houses. You told me about attempting to

418
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Speaker 6: kept the kidnap a bank clerk, and that didn't go well,

419
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Speaker 6: and then you moved to ambushing people in their houses

420
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Speaker 6: and tricing mendic cooperating and then doing what you did.

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Speaker 6: So in this fantasy you never got to do. How

422
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Speaker 6: would you have done? And he said, I would have

423
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Speaker 6: watched a laundry mat so she was in there alone.

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Speaker 6: I'd approached her with one of my rouges. I would

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Speaker 6: have had her help me get my stuff from my car,

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Speaker 6: and when I got her to my car, I would

427
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Speaker 6: have her and nobody would see her here anything. And

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Speaker 6: You've got a lot of experience, a lot of people

429
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Speaker 6: on here, you know. Right then and there, you know,

430
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 6: he moved to the top of the list, of course.

431
00:27:22,280 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 6: And so we went to Wichita and then going through

432
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 6: the documentations that they collected in the search warrant, we

433
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 6: find in nineteen seventy six, which is when our girl

434
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 6: went missing. He's got a project called bad Wash Day

435
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 6: and he has that marked for chapter nine and in

436
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 6: one that he was going to release information on it.

437
00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:53,320
Speaker 6: He's actually got two murders listed, one that he was

438
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:57,400
Speaker 6: going to release information in April and one possibly in November.

439
00:27:58,080 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 6: The one in November is still a cold case. It's

440
00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,679
Speaker 6: open of a girl named Sherry Baker out of Wichita,

441
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,359
Speaker 6: and even in his interview he tried to confess to

442
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 6: that and gave gave details that he said the manner

443
00:28:14,520 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 6: of which he was killed and what she was killed with,

444
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 6: and that wasn't in the paper, but he did not

445
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 6: go on with the story, and you know that led

446
00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 6: us to that. But besides all that information then, of course,

447
00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 6: you know, we were looking for anything possible. So we

448
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 6: were able to track down people that you know, were

449
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 6: former club members, different people that he's had relationships through

450
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 6: the years, wrote letters to. We obtained a copy of

451
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 6: a letter that I believe he had written in two

452
00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 6: thousand and eight, and in that two thousand and eight letter,

453
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:57,240
Speaker 6: he had told them that he had some trophies and

454
00:28:57,320 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 6: driver's license hid under or the concrete blocks in his

455
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,720
Speaker 6: storage building behind his house and the police had never

456
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 6: found those He described it as he had it buried

457
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 6: some of them in a in a jar. So of

458
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 6: course when you read that, you're you're you're thinking, oh

459
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 6: my gosh. You know, we know he released driver's license

460
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:25,719
Speaker 6: on other victims. We know that he has notations in

461
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:27,600
Speaker 6: the book that he was writing that he was going

462
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 6: to release more in April and more in November. So

463
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 6: when we got that information, we went straight to Park City,

464
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,760
Speaker 6: got with Park City Police department, and we went to

465
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 6: the location, uh, you know, to see if if there

466
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 6: was anything there as he described. And when we got there,

467
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 6: there was a six foot sidewalk that had been put

468
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:54,200
Speaker 6: right over the top of where he described he buried

469
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 6: those items. So on that first on that first attempt,

470
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:04,920
Speaker 6: we some around the edges of that concrete and that's

471
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 6: when we located the pantyhose that you were talking about earlier.

472
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 6: But in order to get to the other stuff, we

473
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 6: would have to have the concrete removed. So of course

474
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:21,680
Speaker 6: we took that information, went to KBI, worked with Park City,

475
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,800
Speaker 6: and it came together last week for them to come

476
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 6: out saw cut that remove that concrete. Because you know,

477
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 6: when you've got that kind of information, you've you've got

478
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:36,080
Speaker 6: to follow through. And then of course in the dig

479
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,880
Speaker 6: we found several items saying broken glass. The problem is

480
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 6: we don't know if anyone involved they got that letter

481
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 6: or got information out of that had been there between

482
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 6: two thousand and eight and when we finally dug there.

483
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 6: So you know, the question is, you know, he definitely

484
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 6: says in that there was Sicklim's license along with other trophies.

485
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 6: You know, if somebody had already got some of that

486
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 6: stuff prior, but also they had removed you know, probably

487
00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 6: six inches of dirt or so in that area to

488
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 6: prepare that site for the concrete. So we don't know

489
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 6: if that could happen, but we definitely found items that

490
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 6: matched the letter and they were definitely uh.

491
00:31:23,960 --> 00:31:25,040
Speaker 2: What were the items?

492
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 6: I can't release all the items.

493
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: Trying to understand guys. You may have noticed a Paul

494
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: went over the whole.

495
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 2: Panel when.

496
00:31:34,320 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 1: The revelation came out from raiders own Mouth that he

497
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:42,840
Speaker 1: dreamed about laundry mats.

498
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: Take a listen to our cut thirty eight NBC.

499
00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 16: Oklahoma's Ocge County Sheriff's Office recently unearthed new evidence at

500
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 16: the serial killer's former home.

501
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 3: There are penny hose that are tied.

502
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 16: In an Investigators believe Reader use those pantyhose to bind

503
00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,560
Speaker 16: the victims hands or feet together. Perhaps, they say Sana Kenney,

504
00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 16: a sixteen year old who was last seen at the

505
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 16: laundrymat in Bajasca, Oklahoma in nineteen seventy six, reader writing

506
00:32:06,400 --> 00:32:08,840
Speaker 16: in a journal entry around the same time that laundry

507
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,440
Speaker 16: mats were a good place to watch victims and dream.

508
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,760
Speaker 17: We read from cover to cover his journals, and he

509
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,840
Speaker 17: left all kinds of clues in there. I absolutely believe

510
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 17: they were probably on a victim, and he took them

511
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 17: after he killed him. He took him and he kept him.

512
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 3: As a reminder to.

513
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 1: Nicole Parton joining US Crime online dot Com investigative reporter Nicole.

514
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 2: From where did Cindy go missing?

515
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 8: She went missing from the laundrymat. That was the last

516
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 8: known place where she was. She went missing from the

517
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 8: laundrymat there in Poshaga in Kentucky. And here we have

518
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 8: this reference where he's saying in his journal, I would

519
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 8: watch the nearby laundrymat for the victim. Even references the

520
00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 8: journal entry as wash day. He says that he was

521
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 8: watching the brunette, which Cindy was, and he goes on

522
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 8: in detail as how he watched them, and then goes

523
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 8: back to how he would dress himself. He has on

524
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 8: a pair of women's underwear. After watching a girl or lady,

525
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:24,480
Speaker 8: he would go into the bathroom relieve himself with masturbation thoughts.

526
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 8: Also in the journal, he references the laundry maat day

527
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 8: and says, see another entry I've made, And that entry

528
00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 8: in his journal was the original reward poster upon Cindy's disappearance.

529
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:42,360
Speaker 1: Guys, take a listen now to our friends and cut

530
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 1: forty six at the Today Show.

531
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 18: The case has repeatedly been the subject of documentaries.

532
00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:48,720
Speaker 2: Four o'clock a Normal Guy.

533
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,600
Speaker 18: Including a show Sheriff Verdon happened to see, prompting him

534
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 18: to visit Reader in prison. That's when the sheriff says, unexpectedly,

535
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 18: BTK may have tipped his hand on Kenney at a laundromat.

536
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 17: He said, well, you know, there was my favorite fantasy.

537
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 17: Would you want to hear what it was? And I

538
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 17: said sure, why not? And he looked me in the

539
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 17: eye and he said, I always wanted to kidnap a

540
00:34:12,040 --> 00:34:13,959
Speaker 17: girl from a laundrymat Sheriff Verdon.

541
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 2: Did he look you right in the eye when he

542
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 2: said that?

543
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 6: Absolutely, you know, Nancy, and he has given me so

544
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 6: much more. You know he before he told me the

545
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 6: laundry mat thing. After we shut him down, because you know,

546
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:33,239
Speaker 6: he's very controlling. He likes to control the situation. We

547
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 6: were shutting it down. He was throwing stuff at us,

548
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 6: I believe. And you know the first thing he said

549
00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 6: when we shut it down was I was in Oklahoma

550
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 6: a lot in nineteen ninety and I said, I said, really,

551
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 6: what were you doing? And he said, well, I'd lost

552
00:34:53,239 --> 00:34:56,480
Speaker 6: my job at ADT and I went to work for

553
00:34:56,520 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 6: the United States Census. I started in which to tall,

554
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 6: but got promoted a regional supervisor and in nineteen ninety

555
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,720
Speaker 6: I was all over Kansas and Oklahoma. And I said,

556
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 6: that's terrifying.

557
00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: And it is to want to bolinger a friend of

558
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: Cindy Kenny who goes missing, never seen again, age sixteen,

559
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:28,720
Speaker 1: at that laundromat. When you hear BTK dropping all these

560
00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:36,440
Speaker 1: hints as Innuendow knowing so much about Cindy's disappearance, how

561
00:35:36,480 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 1: does that make you feel?

562
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,080
Speaker 12: You know, I'm hearing a lot of things for the

563
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 12: first time today and I'm just heartbroken over this. Demand

564
00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 12: is a sick, evil person to do this to such

565
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,879
Speaker 12: a sweet in the sick girl. Cindy was the most

566
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 12: beautiful girl you'd ever meet. She never met a stranger.

567
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 12: It's just I'm in Sharton Nancy.

568
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: Time stories with Nancy Grace. Joining me right now is

569
00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:29,680
Speaker 1: a renowned medical examiner, doctor Kendall Crowns, joining us out

570
00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: of Terrance County.

571
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 2: That's fort Worth.

572
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:35,200
Speaker 1: Never a lack of business there for Doctor Crown's lecturer

573
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:39,400
Speaker 1: at University of Texas Austin and Texas Christian University Medical

574
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:45,799
Speaker 1: School has literally conducted thousands of autopsies. Doctor Crowns, thank

575
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: you for taking your time to be with us today.

576
00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,400
Speaker 1: It's hard to believe that there are even more victims

577
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,799
Speaker 1: of Dennis Raider BTK. If the bodies, if the remains,

578
00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:05,440
Speaker 1: that is, we're found now, would you be able to

579
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:11,560
Speaker 1: identify them as being, for instance, Cindy Kenney.

580
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 9: So at this point, most of his victims have been

581
00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 9: dead over thirty years. All you're looking for is skeletal remains.

582
00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 9: But from those skeletal remains, there is still a possibility

583
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:25,799
Speaker 9: of identifying them through gentle records and if there is

584
00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 9: any tissue left or a bone marrow left, you could

585
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:33,640
Speaker 9: get a sample to do DNA testing. So there is

586
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 9: a possibility of still identifying them even after all this time.

587
00:37:37,160 --> 00:37:43,120
Speaker 1: It's very disturbing that he referred to his murders as

588
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: quote projects. I remember I would have four h projects

589
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 1: all the way through you know, middle school and high school.

590
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,680
Speaker 1: I'd work call them lovingly. He called his murders projects.

591
00:37:56,680 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut fifty three from.

592
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:04,840
Speaker 17: When we started digging through the files. We located those

593
00:38:05,120 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 17: polaroids that he had taken his self, and there was

594
00:38:09,000 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 17: a series of nine photos that he took on one

595
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 17: of his convicted cases out of Wichita. In the series

596
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:24,600
Speaker 17: of nine is written that he is wearing articles from

597
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 17: three different projects, one of them of which was the

598
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,000
Speaker 17: Davis murder bear in Wichita.

599
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:36,360
Speaker 1: Not only that, do these photos and other evidence connect

600
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:42,680
Speaker 1: him to another unsolved case of SHAWNA. Beth Garber. Listen

601
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:45,600
Speaker 1: to our friends at the Today show in cup forty.

602
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,319
Speaker 18: Five, Oklahoma's Osh County shares thatdy Vernon also suspects in

603
00:38:49,400 --> 00:38:52,399
Speaker 18: nineteen ninety Raider may have killed twenty two year old

604
00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 18: Shawna Beth Garber. Garber's body was found in Missouri in

605
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:58,879
Speaker 18: an area where Raider's own daughter remembers Fishy with her

606
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 18: father and true.

607
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,320
Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum that the twenty two year old Shawna Beth

608
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: was found severely decomposed dumped in a Missouri home that

609
00:39:09,320 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: had been abandoned bound at the ankles. Autopsy reveal she

610
00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:18,799
Speaker 1: had been raped, restrained with different types of bindings two

611
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,720
Speaker 1: months before she was found, and for thirty one years

612
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: she was known as Grace Doe, but authorm laves identify

613
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 1: her as Shawna Beth Garber.

614
00:39:29,600 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 7: Correct and Nancy let me brag on the sheriff a

615
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 7: moment when he first went on TV and showed that

616
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:39,920
Speaker 7: ligature that would only fit a wrist or an ankle.

617
00:39:40,600 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 7: I thought that was the most brilliant thing I've seen

618
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 7: in a long time, because what he did was two

619
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:50,640
Speaker 7: things simultaneously. One, he spoke directly to Dennis Rager, Look

620
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:52,920
Speaker 7: what I found. You thought you hit it.

621
00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,120
Speaker 10: You thought this was going to be your trophy that.

622
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 7: You got to keep forever. But we found it. And

623
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,840
Speaker 7: the second thing he did, he showed law and for

624
00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:05,920
Speaker 7: across this country. Look what we have. Look how it's tied,

625
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 7: because that not is going.

626
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:08,520
Speaker 18: To be key.

627
00:40:09,000 --> 00:40:11,359
Speaker 7: You can take DNA completely out of this thing.

628
00:40:12,120 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 19: Where it was cut, how it was tied, where it

629
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,480
Speaker 19: came from the panty hose, if it was near the toe,

630
00:40:18,880 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 19: the legs or the panty part is going to be critical.

631
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 7: And I thought that was absolutely genius.

632
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:29,040
Speaker 1: She's right, Sheriff Ardan, do you believe that you are

633
00:40:29,120 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: close to making a case for SHAWNA.

634
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:37,879
Speaker 6: I've actually got new information that hasn't been released and

635
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 6: we're confirming it now, but it is it's probably going

636
00:40:42,360 --> 00:40:49,040
Speaker 6: to move her case a lot closer, if not put

637
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 6: it over the line in my opinion. So I'll give

638
00:40:52,640 --> 00:40:56,279
Speaker 6: you you know, the first bit of that, and we

639
00:40:56,320 --> 00:41:02,040
Speaker 6: are still confirming. So in here his notebook that he's

640
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,279
Speaker 6: got like his whole timeline with a bunch of projects

641
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 6: and stuff. On ten twenty six of ninety he's got

642
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:18,319
Speaker 6: a notation of one and two under the star Camboree.

643
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 6: And then on ten twenty seven the next day he

644
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 6: has moss Leg project. So we didn't get to Shonda

645
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 6: by picking out a random thing and going We followed

646
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:38,000
Speaker 6: evidence that we found in different things that took us

647
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 6: to her. And in addition to that, as we doe deeper,

648
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:50,480
Speaker 6: we actually we actually we were really trying to figure

649
00:41:50,520 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 6: out what the under the Star one and two Cambri was.

650
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 6: So of course we know he was in the Scouts,

651
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 6: the son was in the Scouts at that time, and

652
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 6: we have been doing extensive research and you know, we

653
00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 6: knew that was going to be Boy Scout related and

654
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 6: just trying to find some information. I've called all the

655
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,719
Speaker 6: way to Utah to the headquarters.

656
00:42:15,760 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 2: Are you saying, Scout Jamboree.

657
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:27,279
Speaker 6: Under the Star Cambree? So this is really helpful in

658
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 6: Shonda's case. So we've reached out to the Boy Scout

659
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 6: troop and we've actually the other night ran down a

660
00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 6: gentleman I'm not going to reveal, but was in the

661
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:49,480
Speaker 6: Scouts with him, and he told me that on that

662
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:54,920
Speaker 6: date in nineteen ninety from his recollection, they were camped

663
00:42:55,080 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 6: at the Roaring River in Missouri, which would be, you know,

664
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 6: approximately thirty forty minutes to an hour from where her

665
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 6: body was found. That from the recollection, it would have

666
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 6: been a Friday Saturday and leave Sunday. And then in

667
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:23,600
Speaker 6: following up with that campground, we learned that it's site

668
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 6: one and two. And this is all still brand new

669
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 6: and we're we are digging, you know, right now, trying

670
00:43:33,080 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 6: to determine. But Nancy, how big is that if we

671
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 6: can now put Dennis Raider in Missouri and at that

672
00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:50,479
Speaker 6: location close to where her body was with with this

673
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 6: project named a series of nine photographs that he did

674
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 6: on eleven one, So if you go with this project,

675
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 6: he committed it on the twenty seventh, and he took

676
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 6: a series nine photographs and he made a special map

677
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 6: that he sent to the police specifically showing this location

678
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 6: and on that map noting a place for the body

679
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 6: to be put in the woods, and her body was

680
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 6: in the woods. And if you put the one sixty

681
00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 6: at Joplin, which is what the map is, without a doubt,

682
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 6: and the map shows southeast corner and it actually shows

683
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,560
Speaker 6: out of the state of candidate. But if you put

684
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 6: that one sixty where he put that notation of the

685
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 6: body to be placed, it is spot on. And again

686
00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 6: we provided information McDonald County worked with them. We actually

687
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 6: went up with them to do an interview, provided them

688
00:44:52,640 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 6: a bunch of information, actually helped them prepare and arrest

689
00:44:56,680 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 6: Affi David in this case. They did the interview, we listened,

690
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:04,600
Speaker 6: and I had one of my people in the interview

691
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 6: room with them. But you know, McDonald County said he

692
00:45:09,800 --> 00:45:14,319
Speaker 6: was fairly honest with them. They fell. But while they

693
00:45:14,320 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 6: were doing that interview, and just one example, the investigator

694
00:45:18,840 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 6: asked him, did you ever wrap anything around the victim's head?

695
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 6: And he said no, And I had provided them photographs

696
00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 6: of him, the nine pictures where he's got something around

697
00:45:32,560 --> 00:45:35,920
Speaker 6: his head. So they said, why did you have this

698
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:37,799
Speaker 6: around your head? And he said, well, that was to

699
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 6: hide mydentity. But I didn't do that to victims during

700
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:46,440
Speaker 6: the interview. I sent that investigator photograph of victims that

701
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 6: he's convicted for with stuff wrapped around their head. I mean,

702
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:55,520
Speaker 6: I can document at least five to six lies that

703
00:45:55,640 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 6: he told them. And again I wasn't in the room,

704
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 6: but I listened all this, and again I've heard them

705
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 6: say they couldn't place him in the area. But guess what, Nancy,

706
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:15,560
Speaker 6: We've now possibly placed him not just in the area,

707
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 6: but right in the area. We're body stain.

708
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,840
Speaker 1: How do you go to sleep at night with this

709
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: dancing through your brain?

710
00:46:23,560 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 6: Well, let me tell you. My wife came in at

711
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 6: one point thirty and said, you've got to get to sleep.

712
00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 6: You're going to kill yourself. But you know it's Nancy.

713
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 6: I'm telling you with your experience, if you've seen I mean,

714
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 6: we haven't even we haven't even touched the tip of

715
00:46:45,400 --> 00:46:51,640
Speaker 6: the iceberg. In what I've looked, I've been eight months

716
00:46:52,440 --> 00:47:00,480
Speaker 6: going through, collecting, following up on and the information. If

717
00:47:00,520 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 6: you looked at it, you you would be absolutely shocked,

718
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 6: and you you would know. I mean, I had a

719
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 6: meeting and put together a slide, and I had the

720
00:47:14,360 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 6: OSBI from Oklahoma, I had KBI from Kansas. I had

721
00:47:22,160 --> 00:47:29,239
Speaker 6: numerous sheriffs from Kansas. I had the US Attorney's Office here,

722
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 6: and I had the Oklahoma State Attorney General's office here.

723
00:47:33,800 --> 00:47:38,200
Speaker 6: We figured the presentation we put together would last about

724
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:43,719
Speaker 6: two hours. We felt like it was very compelling and

725
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 6: would show everyone, you know, the need for us to

726
00:47:47,960 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 6: form some type of a task force and really dedicate

727
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 6: the time that needed to be done on this case.

728
00:47:55,120 --> 00:48:00,360
Speaker 6: That meeting ended up going the majority of everyone's for

729
00:48:00,400 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 6: at least eight hours, some up to ten hours because

730
00:48:04,719 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 6: of the significance of just the tip of the iceberg,

731
00:48:10,320 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 6: and if you look at the things I mean, we

732
00:48:13,600 --> 00:48:17,680
Speaker 6: went through his map. James. James is an incredible person

733
00:48:17,760 --> 00:48:22,399
Speaker 6: with more dedication than I can say. And again, I'm

734
00:48:22,440 --> 00:48:25,160
Speaker 6: dealing with day to day and I've kept James focused

735
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:28,200
Speaker 6: on this and he's he's in there going through stuff.

736
00:48:28,239 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 6: He's made maps where and you know, we have no

737
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 6: idea how much other law enforcement has done because you know,

738
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,319
Speaker 6: we've only been accessing what we can access when we

739
00:48:39,400 --> 00:48:45,240
Speaker 6: can get it. And we made a map of missing

740
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 6: people or unsolved cases just off of the map that

741
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:53,560
Speaker 6: dentists provided. And then as we did as we did that,

742
00:48:53,920 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 6: then we looked at at you know, what the victims

743
00:48:56,920 --> 00:49:02,480
Speaker 6: were wearing, their descriptions and heard them. He has got

744
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 6: a ton of of of drawings and and notations and

745
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:14,400
Speaker 6: letters and poems and and just unbelievable things. But going

746
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:19,960
Speaker 6: through that, we found you know, not only cases that

747
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 6: that that matched his map, but but but other items

748
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:32,440
Speaker 6: that particularly show the description of the victim down to

749
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 6: colors of their shirts matching hair color, hairstyles. I mean,

750
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 6: it is, it's it's unbelievable and uh, you know this

751
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 6: thing is uh is really really amaze me of of

752
00:49:51,560 --> 00:49:53,840
Speaker 6: and disappointed me. You know, I was old when we

753
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:58,560
Speaker 6: find an abt schedule and be able to really in

754
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:01,480
Speaker 6: an out. But we got one letter that says we

755
00:50:01,520 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 6: don't have any records. I mean it goes on and

756
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:10,719
Speaker 6: on and on, but you know it's just you know,

757
00:50:10,960 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 6: like like there's an Oklahoma. I was telling you that

758
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,680
Speaker 6: he talked about his senses time and in his timeline

759
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:19,839
Speaker 6: it's the busiest time of his life, which he told

760
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:23,240
Speaker 6: me in person. You know, he couldn't be his self

761
00:50:23,320 --> 00:50:28,200
Speaker 6: at home because he had to be the church deacon

762
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:33,560
Speaker 6: and the dad and the husband and keep his his

763
00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 6: his his role as that. But then when he was

764
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 6: out on the road, he got to be btk and

765
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:45,360
Speaker 6: have his hotel parties. He described breaking and enterings, prowling,

766
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 6: window peeping.

767
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,720
Speaker 2: What do you mean by hotel parties? What hotel parties?

768
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 6: Okay, So some of the pictures that he made, he

769
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 6: would again dress up, you know, in women's clothing, wigs,

770
00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,640
Speaker 6: mask and each and take his own pictures inside those hotels,

771
00:51:05,120 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 6: like the one you showed.

772
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:08,879
Speaker 3: Where he was.

773
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 6: Hanging in the trees. Yes, okay, we have located the spot.

774
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:18,760
Speaker 6: We've we've been with that Sheriff's department. We've located a

775
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:25,680
Speaker 6: document that he made describing that day, everything he took,

776
00:51:25,920 --> 00:51:29,480
Speaker 6: what he did when he created that, and that's a

777
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,560
Speaker 6: special area of his and that's an area that will

778
00:51:33,600 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 6: be searched, you know, in the near future. One example,

779
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 6: craziest thing I ever heard. I actually brought that up

780
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 6: to him and you know what his response was, what

781
00:51:49,000 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 6: he actually said this. He said, he said, well, well,

782
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 6: if you find something there that that won't mean anything,

783
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:03,240
Speaker 6: because every killer used that spot and me, me and

784
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 6: me and one of the guys that was with me.

785
00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,960
Speaker 6: After that conversation, you know, we're going back. I mean,

786
00:52:09,000 --> 00:52:12,320
Speaker 6: it's just unbelieva. It's like, you know, we're we're picturing

787
00:52:12,640 --> 00:52:15,840
Speaker 6: the john Wick Assassin Hotel. You know, he said you

788
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 6: would go to that spot and you'd trip over other killers,

789
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,160
Speaker 6: you know where you were trying to get your time

790
00:52:20,200 --> 00:52:24,520
Speaker 6: in there. I mean, it's just insane. And you know,

791
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 6: at that location we haven't released it, but in a

792
00:52:27,280 --> 00:52:31,359
Speaker 6: silo we found a button to a blouse and the

793
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 6: middle part had been torn off, so a shirt had

794
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,359
Speaker 6: been ripped open or torn which would cause that to

795
00:52:37,400 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 6: break off. And there is no reason that we can

796
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 6: think of for it to be in that location. Why

797
00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:49,200
Speaker 6: why a female would be inside of a silo and

798
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 6: have something occurred in a grain silo that would cause

799
00:52:52,320 --> 00:52:54,600
Speaker 6: her button to be ripped off of her shirt. So,

800
00:52:55,719 --> 00:52:59,279
Speaker 6: you know, we we've got so many things that that.

801
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:06,200
Speaker 6: But you imagine nobody in law enforcement wants to touch BTK. Now,

802
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 6: you know, when I go in to talk to Sheriff,

803
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 6: they you know, a lot of times run from backwards

804
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 6: because they don't want anything to do with that because

805
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:19,560
Speaker 6: of the baggage that comes along with this type of investigation.

806
00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:25,160
Speaker 6: But my victim needs justice and her family needs answers.

807
00:53:25,239 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 6: And I met with her parents years ago, and I

808
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:33,000
Speaker 6: had done other things on this case, and I promise

809
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 6: them if I got anything, I would follow it to

810
00:53:36,239 --> 00:53:39,080
Speaker 6: the end of the earth to get those answers. I

811
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,799
Speaker 6: don't want to work McDonald kin things. I don't want

812
00:53:42,840 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 6: to work other things. I just want to find my girl.

813
00:53:46,920 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 6: But you know how these cases are, it's again a

814
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:54,960
Speaker 6: domino effect. If I can get anything that's going to

815
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 6: cause a chain of events that will will possibly reveal

816
00:54:00,200 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 6: the location of my victim and get my case closed

817
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 6: and my answers.

818
00:54:05,840 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 1: You know, Sheriff, I'm just so so inspired that you are.

819
00:54:14,480 --> 00:54:19,000
Speaker 1: You call these people the same thing. I called my

820
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: people my victims. And you know, I've never heard anybody

821
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:27,960
Speaker 1: else say that in my life beside me. When you

822
00:54:28,040 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 1: say my victim, I mean that tells me how much

823
00:54:33,360 --> 00:54:34,400
Speaker 1: this means to you.

824
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,279
Speaker 6: Oh it does. And believe me, I won't stop off

825
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:42,520
Speaker 6: push as long and far as I can. And you know,

826
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 6: I'm quite certain at this point I probably made a

827
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:50,280
Speaker 6: lot of other law enforcement to upset, you know, but again,

828
00:54:51,760 --> 00:54:55,880
Speaker 6: you've got to and that's that's why, you know, we

829
00:54:56,080 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 6: didn't release anything to me. The first time I talked

830
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,080
Speaker 6: to him, he called the reporter out of New York

831
00:55:01,120 --> 00:55:03,080
Speaker 6: and they called me and I tried to talk to them.

832
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,680
Speaker 6: You know, hey, you know this is just routine. There

833
00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:08,719
Speaker 6: might not be here. You know, I don't want to

834
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:12,040
Speaker 6: open wounds. But of course, you know, the story ran

835
00:55:12,200 --> 00:55:17,600
Speaker 6: and caught some some buzz off that, but then died down,

836
00:55:17,680 --> 00:55:21,120
Speaker 6: and we of course had continued. You know, we had

837
00:55:21,200 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 6: done two prior digs at two different locations, one in Kansas,

838
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,760
Speaker 6: and we're lucky to not catch any attention on those.

839
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 6: And you know, because it makes it easier to move

840
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,400
Speaker 6: around a lot of people when they see the media buzz,

841
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:38,800
Speaker 6: they don't want to talk to you because they're afraid.

842
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:40,359
Speaker 6: You know, they're going to walk out to get their

843
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:43,600
Speaker 6: mail and there's going to be fifteen different media outlets

844
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:46,919
Speaker 6: chasing around, ask some questions. You know, when you run

845
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:49,880
Speaker 6: up and you know this because you've been there, you know.

846
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 6: You take a little couple that's been through forty some

847
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:59,279
Speaker 6: years of misery now knowing where the baby is, details wondering,

848
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:02,600
Speaker 6: you know, and they go to get their mail, and

849
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,400
Speaker 6: somebody comes running up and says, how do you feel, Nancy?

850
00:56:06,480 --> 00:56:07,439
Speaker 6: You know how they feel?

851
00:56:07,520 --> 00:56:09,440
Speaker 2: Terrible? It's terrible, you know.

852
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,759
Speaker 6: You don't even I mean, that's that's of course, that's

853
00:56:13,840 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 6: where we live in today, you know, And that's why

854
00:56:16,160 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 6: I try to push people, you know, to respect those families.

855
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:26,280
Speaker 6: And Carrie, Carrie is a phenomenal, phenomenal person. And Carrie

856
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 6: is a true victim, just as she's as much of

857
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 6: a victim as as the family members of the murdered people,

858
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,880
Speaker 6: and not just her, but her whole family. You know,

859
00:56:39,000 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 6: I've been fortunate enough to to to visit with one

860
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:48,160
Speaker 6: other family member, and I can tell you the pain

861
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 6: and the hurt and the things they live with. I mean,

862
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 6: can you imagine, you know, you you have nothing to

863
00:56:56,000 --> 00:57:00,520
Speaker 6: do with no knowledge't didn't didn't have anything. But anytime

864
00:57:00,560 --> 00:57:05,080
Speaker 6: you go anywhere, you're not you your bt k's brother,

865
00:57:05,320 --> 00:57:08,759
Speaker 6: or your bt k's daughter, your bt k's son, or

866
00:57:08,800 --> 00:57:13,719
Speaker 6: your btk's wife. You know, if if bt k's grandkids,

867
00:57:14,520 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 6: you know, or in school and people find out, what what?

868
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 6: What are those other kids do? And then if they

869
00:57:20,360 --> 00:57:22,560
Speaker 6: if they have friends and they say, hey, can I

870
00:57:22,600 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 6: go over and stay the night there?

871
00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 2: What?

872
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:25,360
Speaker 6: What?

873
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 11: What?

874
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 6: Has had the world parents going to say? You see

875
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 6: what I'm saying. I mean, people need to realize that

876
00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 6: that that that the suspects families.

877
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:39,840
Speaker 1: Have been through hell and the embarrassment and the shame

878
00:57:40,320 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: attached to it much less we know the guy's a

879
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: serial killer. How do you think he treated them growing up?

880
00:57:47,040 --> 00:57:51,360
Speaker 1: I mean Carrie told me how awful he was to

881
00:57:51,400 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: live with. Can you even imagine?

882
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 2: Oh?

883
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:58,320
Speaker 6: Absolutely? But it's it's harder on on Carrie and the

884
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 6: family than it is on the victims' families because you know,

885
00:58:02,840 --> 00:58:08,720
Speaker 6: when the victim's family goes somewhere, people have compassion because

886
00:58:09,160 --> 00:58:13,680
Speaker 6: of what they went through. But but when when the

887
00:58:13,720 --> 00:58:18,439
Speaker 6: suspects family goes places, you know, it's a whole different deal.

888
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 12: They're they're they're they're.

889
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 6: Shunned, they're talked about, they're whispered about, and they're carrying

890
00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 6: a harder burder and people just really need to set back.

891
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: I think the victims' family might disagree with you, because

892
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,400
Speaker 1: at least they're all alive. So it's that's a toss up.

893
00:58:38,440 --> 00:58:41,960
Speaker 1: He was, you know, everybody suffered. Everybody has suffered.

894
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:46,240
Speaker 6: Don't don't get me wrong. I'm not downplaying that, but

895
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:53,160
Speaker 6: I'm saying victim's family has got compassion where where somebody

896
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,520
Speaker 6: like Carrie. You know, Carrie has told me she plans

897
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 6: on advocating for victims as many years as Dennis tormented society,

898
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 6: just trying to clear their name and do good where

899
00:59:10,040 --> 00:59:13,520
Speaker 6: somebody did that, you know, and you've got to admire

900
00:59:13,600 --> 00:59:15,960
Speaker 6: somebody that's done that. I can tell you she has

901
00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 6: been a tremendous asset to us. And if you go

902
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 6: back and look at some of her early releases when

903
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,440
Speaker 6: this information broke, when Dennis put it out, you know,

904
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 6: I mean, she she was like, I don't believe he

905
00:59:31,240 --> 00:59:35,080
Speaker 6: did any of this, and then you know, through through time,

906
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:40,560
Speaker 6: we ended up with her actually getting to see some

907
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:44,000
Speaker 6: of the information we got and you know, she left

908
00:59:44,040 --> 00:59:49,080
Speaker 6: here I believe in a better position personally, But not

909
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 6: only that, she revealed a lot of really really good information,

910
00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:57,040
Speaker 6: because some of the notations, when you're looking at him

911
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 6: as a person not knowing everything, it doesn't really make

912
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:03,120
Speaker 6: a whole lot of sense. But if you go over

913
01:00:03,120 --> 01:00:07,840
Speaker 6: those items with her, she can bring them to life

914
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 6: and fill in the gaps and make it make perfect sense.

915
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,200
Speaker 7: She's the only outwitness.

916
01:00:16,160 --> 01:00:22,200
Speaker 6: So you know, it's tremendous, and you know, I would

917
01:00:22,200 --> 01:00:28,360
Speaker 6: love to bring some experts in because you know, the

918
01:00:29,400 --> 01:00:32,600
Speaker 6: more recognition that they have, the more credibility they have,

919
01:00:33,600 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 6: the more craction this is going to get. That is

920
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:42,560
Speaker 6: going to get the investigation done that needs to be done.

921
01:00:42,760 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 6: You know, I don't know if you're aware of this

922
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 6: or not, but Dennis talked for thirty hours basically, and

923
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 6: lawyered up and then never never talked again. So the

924
01:00:56,160 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 6: items collected in these search warrants, he was never interviewed

925
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 6: item to item, And I've had an opportunity to go

926
01:01:06,440 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 6: through some of these items with him that he hadn't

927
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:14,600
Speaker 6: seen since his arrest, and you can imagine how that was.

928
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:18,320
Speaker 6: But trying to get questions you know. I mean it's

929
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,160
Speaker 6: you know, there's things he can't explain off at all.

930
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 6: You know, he's got kidnappings marked, not murders, but kidnapping

931
01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 6: marked in a certain time period. And I have found

932
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:41,280
Speaker 6: letters from people claiming to be victims that match his timeline,

933
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,439
Speaker 6: and we're in the process of running them down.

934
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:50,360
Speaker 1: Sheriff Rten, I just pray that you and your people

935
01:01:51,240 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 1: maintained a strength physically, mentally, and emotionally to stay on betch,

936
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:06,520
Speaker 1: because I can only imagine what it feels like not

937
01:02:06,680 --> 01:02:11,680
Speaker 1: to know what happened to your daughter, or your mother

938
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:16,560
Speaker 1: or your sister. I mean, my fiance was murdered. I

939
01:02:16,640 --> 01:02:20,160
Speaker 1: know what happened, and I know who did it, and

940
01:02:20,360 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: justice was sought, but I cannot imagine going through life wondering.

941
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:33,480
Speaker 1: And you are the person to give those families the answers.

942
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: We pray for justice. God bless you sare Goodbye friend,