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Speaker 1: Hey, this is a Bridget and this is Annie, and

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Speaker 1: you're listening to stuff Mom never told you. Now today

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Speaker 1: I want to give a quick trigger warning and because

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Speaker 1: we're gonna be talking about more me too and sexual

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Speaker 1: violence and sex crime. So if that is something that

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Speaker 1: is difficult for you to listen to, just know that

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Speaker 1: that is what today's episode is all about. On this show,

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Speaker 1: we have talked quite a bit about me too, sexual violence,

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Speaker 1: sex crime, sexual harassment, and I feel like we've actually

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Speaker 1: been pretty intentional about talking about the different avenues of

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Speaker 1: it when the victim is a man, you know, different industries.

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Speaker 1: But this is the first time that we're really getting

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Speaker 1: into what happens when the perpetrator is a woman and

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Speaker 1: a notable feminist. And for a little little background, female

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Speaker 1: perpetrators of sexual abuse are understudied, but according to a

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Speaker 1: peer reviewed study the Sexual Victimization of Men in America,

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Speaker 1: new data challenge old assumptions in the American Journal Public Health,

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Speaker 1: men are more likely to be victims of sex crimes

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Speaker 1: than we thought. For example, the CDCs nationally representative data

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Speaker 1: revealed that over one year, men and women were equally

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Speaker 1: likely to experience non consensual sex, and most male victims

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Speaker 1: reported female perpetrators over their lifetime. Seventy pcent of men

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Speaker 1: who were made to penetrate someone else a form of

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Speaker 1: rape in the view of most researchers, reported female perpetrators.

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Speaker 1: And likewise, most men who experienced sexual coercion and unwanted

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Speaker 1: sexual contact had female perpetrators. And when women are behind

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Speaker 1: bars and sexually abused by prison staff, the perpetrator is

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Speaker 1: usually female. Quote. We found that, contrary to assumptions, the

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Speaker 1: biggest threat to women's serving time does not come from

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Speaker 1: male correction staff. Instead, female victims are more than three

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Speaker 1: times it's likely to experience sexual abuse by other women

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Speaker 1: inmates than by male staff. Yeah, and so what this

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Speaker 1: data really shows us is that one, we aren't really

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Speaker 1: doing a lot to look into what happens and what

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Speaker 1: it looks like when a woman is the person who

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Speaker 1: was the perpetrator of a sex crime. And to kind

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Speaker 1: of going back to our episode on terry crews, we're

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Speaker 1: not really fully acknowledging the depths to which men are

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Speaker 1: and can be the victims of sexual harassment, sexual abuse,

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Speaker 1: rape and all of that. It just seems like in general,

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Speaker 1: this is a conversation that is sort of going on,

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Speaker 1: had unreported, understudied, and all of that which brings us

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Speaker 1: to the case of a vital Ronald. Ronald is a

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Speaker 1: world renowned female professor of German and Comparative literature at

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Speaker 1: New York University, and she was found responsible for sexually

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Speaker 1: harassing a male former graduate student named Nimrod Rightman. According

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Speaker 1: to The New York Times that they who they've really

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Speaker 1: done the most sort of extensive reporting on this case.

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Speaker 1: According to The Times, an eleven month Title nine investigation

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Speaker 1: found that professor of now described by a colleague as

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Speaker 1: quote one of the very few philosopher stars of this world,

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Speaker 1: was responsible for sexual harassment both physical and verbal, to

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Speaker 1: the extent that her behavior was quote sufficiently pervasive to

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Speaker 1: alter the terms and conditions of Mr. Rightman's learning environment.

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Speaker 1: Now the professor has been suspended for the coming academic year.

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Speaker 1: Rightman said that she had sexually harassed him for three

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Speaker 1: years and shared dozens of emails and which she referred

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Speaker 1: to him as quote my most adored one sweet cuddly

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Speaker 1: baby cocker spaniel and my astounding and beautiful Nimrod Gross

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Speaker 1: that cocker spaniel. One for someone who's supposed to be

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Speaker 1: like a linguist girl. Come on, yeah, that's that's pretty bad, Rightman,

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Speaker 1: who is now thirty four and is a visiting fellow

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Speaker 1: at Harvard, says that Professor Ronell kissed and watched him repeatedly,

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Speaker 1: slept in his bed with him, required him to lie

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Speaker 1: in her bed, held his hand, texted, emailed, and called

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Speaker 1: him constantly, and refused to work with him if he

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Speaker 1: did not reciprocate. Mr. Reitman is gay and is now

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Speaker 1: married to a man, and Professor Rennell is a lesbian.

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Speaker 1: The Reitman says that everything really started in when the

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Speaker 1: professor invited him on a trip to Paris. This is

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Speaker 1: before he was officially a student at the university. He

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Speaker 1: had been admitted but was not had not actually started classes,

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Speaker 1: but she was still set up to be his faculty

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Speaker 1: advisor now. During this trip, he said that she asked

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Speaker 1: him to come into her bedroom and read poetry to

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Speaker 1: her while she was taking a nap. He says that,

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Speaker 1: you know, he was kind of weird out by this,

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Speaker 1: but was like, oh, I'm here, I better not rock

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Speaker 1: the boat, better not make a scene. So he did it,

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Speaker 1: and as he was doing it, she pulls him into

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Speaker 1: his bed. He alleges and started kissing him on his torso,

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Speaker 1: on his face, on his hands, and trying to grope him. Um.

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Speaker 1: The next day, I s miler kind of thing happened,

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Speaker 1: and he said, listen, you're my advisor, I'm your student.

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Speaker 1: This is not okay, this shouldn't happen. And when I

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Speaker 1: got back to New York, her power was knocked out

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Speaker 1: in by Hurricane Sandy. And so she showed up to

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Speaker 1: his at his apartment asking to stay and insisted on

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Speaker 1: staying in his bed. And again, just like in Paris,

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Speaker 1: once in his bed, she groped him, kissed him, he

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Speaker 1: alleges and all of that. And so it really just

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Speaker 1: sounds like a like a very familiar story, you know,

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Speaker 1: where someone with more power is texting you email and

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Speaker 1: you calling you, putting you in these sort of positions,

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Speaker 1: only the genders are flipped. Yeah, And the New York

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Speaker 1: Times obtained emails that she sent to him. Quote, I

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Speaker 1: woke up with a slight fever and sore throat, she

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Speaker 1: wrote an email on June. I will try very hard

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Speaker 1: not to kiss you until the throat situation receives security clearance.

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Speaker 1: This is not an easy deferral in July, she wrote

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Speaker 1: a short email to him, time for your midday kiss

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Speaker 1: my image during meditation. We're on the sofa, your head

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Speaker 1: on my lap, stroking your forehead, playing softly with your hair, soothing.

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Speaker 1: You hit it gone, yes, question mark. So that pretty

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Speaker 1: clearly reads like sexual harassment to me. I don't know

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Speaker 1: how anyone could think that those are appropriate emails to

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Speaker 1: be sending. If you're a professor that you're setting to

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Speaker 1: your student. You know it's pretty It's pretty clearly not okay.

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Speaker 1: You know who does think it's okay? Is the professor.

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Speaker 1: She denies all of these allegations. She says our communications,

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Speaker 1: which Rightman now claims constitutes sexual harassment, were between two adults,

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Speaker 1: a gay man and a queer woman who sharing an

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Speaker 1: Israeli heritage, as well as a penchant for Florid and

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Speaker 1: can't be communications arising from our common academic backgrounds and sensibilities.

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Speaker 1: These communications were repeatedly invited, responded to, and encouraged by

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Speaker 1: him over period of three years. She said she had

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Speaker 1: no idea that he was uncomfortable with these communications and

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Speaker 1: this behavior until she got this title nine complaint. Um

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Speaker 1: there's a lot to unpack in that statement, I don't

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Speaker 1: kind of know what she means that, Oh, we're both

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Speaker 1: Israeli and we both enjoy camp can't be this is

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Speaker 1: I can't be conversation. Sort of almost don't understand how

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Speaker 1: this serves as a excuse for those emails, which she

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Speaker 1: does not deny sending. Yeah, when I read that, my

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Speaker 1: brow is kind of for I'm not sure what she

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Speaker 1: was going for other than maybe like this is just

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Speaker 1: how we like to communicate. I thought this was reciprocated,

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Speaker 1: but yeah, maybe it's the idea is that we're both

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Speaker 1: we both have the same cultural heritage, and we have

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Speaker 1: a very close relate sationship that might appear suspicious on

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Speaker 1: the outside, but it's actually just the way that we

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Speaker 1: talked to each other. And that's the only thing I

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Speaker 1: can think. Otherwise, I'm just like, what, you're both this Rali,

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Speaker 1: So it's okay for you to sectually harass him? What like?

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Speaker 1: It just it's like not it's like does not compute. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And her response is pretty much standard for how men

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Speaker 1: react when they are accused of misconduct. As Vox puts it,

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Speaker 1: Ronell's response to the allegations also echoes those of other

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Speaker 1: powerful people. Many of them men accused. As part of

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Speaker 1: Me Too, she has asked why Rightman didn't speak up

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Speaker 1: if he was uncomfortable, and argued that he was just

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Speaker 1: upset because of his intellectual inferiority. Quote. His main dilemma

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Speaker 1: was the incoherency in his writing and a lack of

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Speaker 1: recognizable argument, she said in an interview that was part

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Speaker 1: of the Title nine process. So it really is this

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Speaker 1: sounds like the same way that men respond when they

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Speaker 1: are accused of sexual misconduct. It's like reading from a script,

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Speaker 1: and it makes me really sad that as some one

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Speaker 1: who is both an academic and a feminist, that she

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Speaker 1: does not see that she's following this well worn script

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Speaker 1: of how abusers respond when they're called out for their abuse.

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Speaker 1: In May, the university found Professor Ronell responsible for sexual

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Speaker 1: harassment and cleared her of the other allegations. And it

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Speaker 1: has to be said that the fact that she was

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Speaker 1: cleared all the allegations of things like groping, he's allegend

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Speaker 1: these things happened when it was just them too, alone

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Speaker 1: in apartments together. So take that for what it's worth.

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Speaker 1: Right that the university clearly found her in violation of

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Speaker 1: sexually harassing him, but they are not able to confirm

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Speaker 1: that she groped him, she kissed him, all of that

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Speaker 1: because those things happened. He alleges they happened while they

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Speaker 1: were alone together. Yeah, and now Rightman and his legal

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Speaker 1: team are thinking about suing the university. John Beckman, a

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Speaker 1: spokesman for the university, wrote in a statement to the

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Speaker 1: Times that n y U was simp athetic to what

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Speaker 1: Mr Reitman had been through, but Mr Beckman added, quote,

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Speaker 1: given the promptness, seriousness, and thoroughness with which we responded

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Speaker 1: to his charges, we do not believe that his filing

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Speaker 1: a multimillion dollar lawsuit against the university would be warranted

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Speaker 1: or just Yeah, and we're gonna have a little bit

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Speaker 1: more on why the university response to what happened was

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Speaker 1: so complicated. After this quick break and we're back. So

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Speaker 1: here's where things really take a turn. This professor, her

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Speaker 1: colleagues really kind of made a big show of public

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Speaker 1: support for her. They all signed an open letter to

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Speaker 1: the university basically saying she's done nothing wrong, do not

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Speaker 1: punish her. I mean, I have to say, frankly, I

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Speaker 1: was pretty disappointed in this behavior. The people who signed

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Speaker 1: onto this letter are some of the most important feminist

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Speaker 1: critics and scholars that the world has. I'm talking people

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Speaker 1: like Judith Butler, who you know I studied quite a

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Speaker 1: bit when I was getting my degree in women studies

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Speaker 1: and when I was in graduate school. Judith Butler was

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Speaker 1: the author of Gender Trouble, which is probably one of

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Speaker 1: the most defining texts of feminist theory and criticism that

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Speaker 1: we have, and it just astounds me that she would

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Speaker 1: attach her name to a letter like this. Yeah, especially

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Speaker 1: when I guess the results are not final, like the

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Speaker 1: investigation is still sort of ongoing. Another really important feminist

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Speaker 1: critic and scholar who signed onto this letter is Guyatri Spivak,

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Speaker 1: who again is one of the most important feminist scholars

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Speaker 1: in the world. I'm kind of shocked and baffled that

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Speaker 1: these women would sign onto this. So here's what the

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Speaker 1: letter said. Although we have no access to the confidential dossier,

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Speaker 1: we've all worked for many years in close proximity to

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Speaker 1: Professor Ronel and accumulated collectively years of experience to support

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Speaker 1: our view of her capacity as a teacher and a scholar,

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Speaker 1: but also as someone who has served as chair of

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Speaker 1: both the departments of German and comparative literature at New

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Speaker 1: York University. We've all seen her relationship with students, and

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Speaker 1: some of us know the individual who has waged this

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Speaker 1: malicious campaign against her. We wish to communicate first in

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Speaker 1: the clearest terms, are profound and enduring admiration for Professor Ronnell,

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Speaker 1: whose mentorship of students has been no less than remarkable

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Speaker 1: over many years. We deplore the damnage that this legal

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Speaker 1: proceeding causes her, and seek to register in clear terms

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Speaker 1: our objection to any judgment against her. We hold that

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Speaker 1: the allegations against her do not constitute actual evidence, but

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Speaker 1: rather support the view that malicious intention has animated and

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Speaker 1: sustained this legal nightmare. Um. Yeah, No. First of all,

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Speaker 1: they flat out say, you know, we don't know the

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Speaker 1: information that's out there about this case. So they start

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Speaker 1: out their letter by saying, listen, we don't have the facts,

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Speaker 1: but we do know that this professor is great. She's

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Speaker 1: the chair of this department. No one is accusing her

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Speaker 1: of not being the chair of these departments at n

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Speaker 1: y U. No one is accusing her of not being

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Speaker 1: smart or academically rigorous. You know, it's just that letter,

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Speaker 1: like This is what makes me so angry when someone

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Speaker 1: is being accused of sexual misconduct and other people step

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Speaker 1: up and they're like, oh, well I know them, they're great.

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Speaker 1: You weren't there, right, you don't know I'm I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm friends with plenty of people, and if someone said

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Speaker 1: behind closed doors they're a monster, I'm not there behind

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Speaker 1: closed person, it's just them too. So I would have

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Speaker 1: to say I've never seen that behavior from X, Y

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Speaker 1: Z person, But I'm at with them. I don't know

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Speaker 1: their heart, I don't know what they're like. You know.

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Speaker 1: It really adds fuel to this idea that people who

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Speaker 1: are your buddies, people who are nice, people who are accomplished,

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Speaker 1: can't also be harassers. I mean, it sucks when someone

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Speaker 1: that you like it turns out that they're a harasser.

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Speaker 1: But that's how accountability works. You have to hold everyone accountable,

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Speaker 1: even if they are a friend of yours or someone

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Speaker 1: that you respected. Yeah, I actually am am kind of

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Speaker 1: going through this a little bit personally, where a very

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Speaker 1: prominent person on the left, Keith Ellison, who I personally

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Speaker 1: really like, as you know, just one is primary yesterday,

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Speaker 1: is being accused of by an ex of domestic violence,

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Speaker 1: pretty serious stuff, and you know, we're all sort of

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Speaker 1: like circling the wagons and blah blah blah, and I

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Speaker 1: kind of have no horse in the race, you know,

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Speaker 1: in my view these kinds of things. I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't know what happened in that situation in my view,

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Speaker 1: and the data would back me up. People don't tend

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Speaker 1: to make up allegations of abuse, right, Like, the statistics

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Speaker 1: are very clear that it's very unlikely that someone is

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Speaker 1: making up a story to get attention for what ever

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Speaker 1: reason whatever. But it's been interesting watching my professional political circles.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people say I've worked with him very closely.

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Speaker 1: I considered him to be an ally, like, I've never

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Speaker 1: seen this behavior. I guess what I'm saying is it's

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Speaker 1: okay to support your buddy or your friend if they're

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Speaker 1: accused of something and you don't think they did it.

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Speaker 1: If I were in this case, I would think it's

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Speaker 1: fine to like call your friend and be like, listen,

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Speaker 1: I don't know what's going on, but let me know

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Speaker 1: if you need talk. That kind of thing. But you

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Speaker 1: don't need to sign a public declaration putting your reputation

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Speaker 1: on on whether or not they did, because I just

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Speaker 1: would never do that, because if my best friend was

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Speaker 1: accused of something awful, I would call them and be like,

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Speaker 1: I'm here for you. I don't know what happened. But

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Speaker 1: it's like you don't know, you know, even someone you

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Speaker 1: think you know, you work with every day, you don't

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Speaker 1: know what they're like behind closed doors, and is we

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Speaker 1: can't imagine being so certain that this person didn't do

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Speaker 1: what someone said they did just because we were buddies,

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Speaker 1: just because I thought they were great. You know, that's

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Speaker 1: just that how humans are. There are things about me

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Speaker 1: my closest friends don't know. That doesn't include abuse and

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Speaker 1: sexual harassment, but like people are vast and have size

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Speaker 1: of themselves that even their closest buddies and their closest

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Speaker 1: coworkers and stuff don't know about. And so that's why

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Speaker 1: I always blows my mind when people put their name

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Speaker 1: and reputation on I know X, y Z, they're a

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Speaker 1: good person. They would never do this. Yeah, And I'm

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Speaker 1: going to assume the women that signed this letter they

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Speaker 1: had read the emails that were released in the text messages, right,

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Speaker 1: because I don't see how you could be a professor

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Speaker 1: and read these emails and think nothing on toward is happening.

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Speaker 1: Clearly something's happening. She talks about kissing him. So if

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Speaker 1: you're if you're an academic and you know, okay, well,

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Speaker 1: I can put two and two together and deduced from

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Speaker 1: this email that she is acknowledging that they kiss. And

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Speaker 1: even if they're both adults, let's say that even if

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Speaker 1: it was consensual in some capacity, in my view, she

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Speaker 1: still has a power and balance over him, you know

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, Like, even even if it's two adults,

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Speaker 1: if you are a professor and you were having a

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Speaker 1: sexual relationship with someone like you're the person that you're advising,

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Speaker 1: you have intense control over their academic and professional career,

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Speaker 1: probably more than anybody else. So this guy's alleged that

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Speaker 1: wasn't consensual, but even if it was, there's still a

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Speaker 1: huge power and balance. And I would think that Judith

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Speaker 1: Butler would know that. I would think that Spivac would

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Speaker 1: know that because they write about this for a living,

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Speaker 1: they studied this or a living, and so it's just

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Speaker 1: really shocking to me that when it comes to your buddy,

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Speaker 1: you can't see it, you know, kind of reminds me

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Speaker 1: of in her episode about take Cuse, we talked about

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Speaker 1: that very um poor taste joke about male rape in prison.

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Speaker 1: And there's also another joke that makes me crams that

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Speaker 1: I see a lot, and is that like when it's

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Speaker 1: a female teacher professor going after a younger student, like,

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Speaker 1: of course he's going to want it and be into it, right,

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Speaker 1: like high fives to his friends, which is gross and wrong.

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Speaker 1: It's just a double standard for how it was a

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Speaker 1: male professor going after a female student, how it would

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Speaker 1: be viewed and talked about in the media, versus a

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Speaker 1: female professor and a male student. Yeah, we could do

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Speaker 1: a whole episode around Matt, but wrong is wrong. It

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. Yeah, it's like we should. It's I see

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Speaker 1: that double standard too, and I hate it and it's

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Speaker 1: so gross. I think that men should be insulted by that.

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Speaker 1: That you know, if you're a fifteen year old boy

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Speaker 1: having a sexual relationship with a twenty two year old teacher,

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Speaker 1: maybe you don't have the emotional maturity or wherewithal to

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Speaker 1: understand how that's going to negatively impact you later in life.

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Speaker 1: But it's almost like not allowing men to be emotionally

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Speaker 1: complex creatures. And they're saying, oh, men are just horn

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Speaker 1: dogs and it doesn't matter if it's an adult or

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Speaker 1: it's a healthy sexual situation, that dude's gonna love it.

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Speaker 1: It's like, no, men are also complex people, and it's

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Speaker 1: almost like not giving them credit for being complex emotional creature.

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Speaker 1: It's like it just assumes that men are just horn

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Speaker 1: dogs who want to get it anyway they can get it,

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Speaker 1: and that's just not true. It's not fair. It breaks

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Speaker 1: my heart when men and boys are sexually abused by

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Speaker 1: women and they worry that speaking out about it will

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Speaker 1: make them be less of a man. We will many

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Speaker 1: people question their masculinity just and it's like, you know

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Speaker 1: that Terry Crews episode, it's no wonder why men don't

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Speaker 1: speak up. It's no, it does not surprise me at

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Speaker 1: all because we have all of this unfair sexualized stuff.

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Speaker 1: When it's a man who is the target of sexual

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Speaker 1: violence and it's messed up, that makes me upset. So

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Speaker 1: this letter does something else that it's I think it's

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Speaker 1: a hallmark of when men are accused of sexual misconduct.

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Speaker 1: It sort of points out that that this professor is

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Speaker 1: brilliant and that you know, the loss of her brilliance.

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Speaker 1: If she was fired for her own behavior would be

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Speaker 1: such a loss for the academic community. They write, If

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Speaker 1: she were to be terminated or relieved of her duties,

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Speaker 1: the injustice would be widely recognized and opposed. The ensuing

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Speaker 1: laws for the humanities, for New York University, and for

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Speaker 1: the intellectual life of these times would be no less enormous,

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Speaker 1: and would rightfully invite widespread and intense public scrutiny. We

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Speaker 1: asked that you approached this material with a clear understanding

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Speaker 1: of the long history of her thoughtful and successive mentorship,

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Speaker 1: the singular brilliance of this intellectual, the international reputation she

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Speaker 1: has rightly earned as a stellar scholar in her field,

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Speaker 1: her enduring commitments to the university and the illuminated world

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Speaker 1: she has brought to your campus where colleagues and students thrive,

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Speaker 1: and her company and under her guidance. Um First of all,

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Speaker 1: if she were to be fired, the only person that

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Speaker 1: would be to blame for her losing her job, or

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Speaker 1: for any ensuing loss to the academic community or the

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Speaker 1: humanities over the college would be her. She sent those emails,

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Speaker 1: she sent those texts. That was her choice. If anyone

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Speaker 1: would be to blame. It would not be the university

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Speaker 1: or this person who is making these accusations. It would

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Speaker 1: be her. She is an adult with a job. She

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Speaker 1: is the one with the power, not her lowly grad student.

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Speaker 1: If anybody was to blame for what they're saying would

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Speaker 1: be this massive loss to the community or whatever the

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Speaker 1: it would be her. And frankly, if you're somebody who

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Speaker 1: is stupid enough to be sending text messages like this

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Speaker 1: and traceable emails like this, maybe you aren't that brilliant

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Speaker 1: after all. Maybe people have just told you that you're

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Speaker 1: brilliant and you have ten years so you think you're brilliant.

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Speaker 1: Like somebody who sends messages like this is a cavalier

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Speaker 1: person who does not strike me as someone who is

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Speaker 1: concerned with what they can bring to this academic community,

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Speaker 1: and that should be squarely on them. Yeah, And the

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Speaker 1: idea that being brilliant shields you from like you can't

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Speaker 1: be punished for any wrongdoing, or that you shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: that's ridiculous and not how things work, or not how

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Speaker 1: they should work anyway. Diane Davis, chair of the Department

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Speaker 1: of Tork at the University of Texas, Austin, who also

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Speaker 1: signed the letter to the university supporting Professor l said

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Speaker 1: she and her colleagues were particularly disturbed that, as they

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Speaker 1: saw it, Mr Reitman was using Title nine a feminist

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Speaker 1: tool to take down a feminist quote. I am, of

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Speaker 1: course very supportive vote Title nine and the Me Too

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Speaker 1: movement are trying to do of their efforts to confront

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Speaker 1: and to prevent abuses, but for which they also seek

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Speaker 1: some sort of justice. But it's for that very reason

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Speaker 1: that it's so disappointing when this incredible energy for justice

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Speaker 1: is twisted and turned against itself, which is what many

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Speaker 1: of us believe is happening in this case. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't even call Title nine a feminist tool. The

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Speaker 1: person who originated no your title nine points out that

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Speaker 1: most of the people who use it to get justice

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Speaker 1: are women. But this idea that only I think that

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Speaker 1: that that understanding only fuels the idea that men can't

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Speaker 1: be victimized and only women are victims. We know that's

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Speaker 1: not true well, and also, I mean, feminism is about equality,

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Speaker 1: so saying like only women can use Title nine I

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Speaker 1: think undercuts what feminism is. I completely agree. So you

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Speaker 1: might be wondering again, who in their right mind would

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Speaker 1: sign an open letter supporting their colleague who had been

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Speaker 1: accused of sexual misconduct when they in fact admit they

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Speaker 1: don't have all the details. Um, if you followed the

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Speaker 1: conversation around Judo Diaz and him and his you know,

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Speaker 1: allegations of sexual misconduct, you'll remember that many people in

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Speaker 1: his academic community and his his his fellow scholars on

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Speaker 1: colleagues signed a letter and spoke up saying that they

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Speaker 1: did not want him to be terminated. So it does happen.

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Speaker 1: The Atlantic actually provided some context into why that might be.

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Speaker 1: One factor. Universities are hierarchical. They right at the apex

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Speaker 1: is the chief executive officer author a president or chancellor,

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Speaker 1: and under that person are the deans of individual schools

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Speaker 1: within a university. Then there are the heads of schools,

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Speaker 1: often decentralized academic departments, who typically enjoy immense influence over

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Speaker 1: departmental decisions from salaries to curriculums. Less officially tenured professors

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Speaker 1: holds a great deal of sway determining their own research

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Speaker 1: and teaching priorities, while getting some say over departmental decisions.

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Speaker 1: At the bottom the untenured academics, hourly wage adjuncts, grant

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Speaker 1: field researchers, contracted instructors, and the life overseeing all of

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Speaker 1: this our schools governing bodies boards of trustees, for examples,

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Speaker 1: which are often composed of leaders from outside the university

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Speaker 1: who come with their own set of financial interests, political beliefs,

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Speaker 1: and personal networks. This leads to a tendency towards tribal politics,

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Speaker 1: in which professors tend to be loyal to their discipline

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Speaker 1: and department. So basically, if you're at an academic university,

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Speaker 1: there can be this weird hierarchy where you cannot want

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Speaker 1: to go against someone if they are perceived as having

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00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 1: a lot of power at your department. Yeah, I have

430
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:06,400
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who work in academia, and I've

431
00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,679
Speaker 1: heard I've heard them talk about stuff like this and

432
00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: how it was upsetting. I mean, they got into the

433
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,720
Speaker 1: field because they love knowledge and they love learning more

434
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,479
Speaker 1: and they are all these politics that impact it and

435
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,880
Speaker 1: that make it difficult and that have kind of demoralized

436
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 1: my friends who are working in academia. Yes, some of

437
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 1: y'all might know that I'm a I'm a PhD school

438
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,560
Speaker 1: dropout and I can absolutely attest to what your friends

439
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 1: are saying. And that was one of the I mean,

440
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: there were many reasons why I dropped out of my

441
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:42,479
Speaker 1: my program, but one of them was that I was

442
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,920
Speaker 1: so overwhelmed by the amount of sort of politics and

443
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,880
Speaker 1: networking and we are dealing and it felt like this

444
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: invisible network of like trip wires that I was never

445
00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: going to figure out, right. I was never going to

446
00:25:56,119 --> 00:25:58,760
Speaker 1: figure out whose asked I should kiss and whose asked

447
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: I didn't have to kiss. I was never to figure out,

448
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:03,119
Speaker 1: you know, who I should buddy up to if I

449
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 1: wanted the best teaching assignment or the best whatever. I

450
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: was already struggling in a program that I had no

451
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:13,199
Speaker 1: business in on top of you know, drowning and schoolwork.

452
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:16,879
Speaker 1: I didn't have the like a mental or emotional energy

453
00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: to also wheel and deal in that way. And that,

454
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:22,040
Speaker 1: I hate to say, that is a big part of

455
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: grad school, at least in my program. I can't pat

456
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: to every program, but knowing how to navigate what often

457
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: it felt like a tense network of intersecting relationships was

458
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:35,880
Speaker 1: a big part of it. And I just had no

459
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: I was already so completely overwhelmed with the actual school work.

460
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,680
Speaker 1: I had no ability to also factor that stuff in. Yeah,

461
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,160
Speaker 1: it takes a toll, and on top of that, securing

462
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: grant money that sounds like it's It plays a big

463
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:56,440
Speaker 1: role as well and creates power imbalances. And in his

464
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: book on the Dynamics of Higher Education in the US

465
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 1: and around the World, the Australian social scientist Brian Martin

466
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 1: argued that in academia, like any other hierarchy, quote, people

467
00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:11,879
Speaker 1: exercise power not by virtue of their personal talents, but

468
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:16,320
Speaker 1: by virtue of the position they occupy. With some exceptions,

469
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 1: He suggested that a professor's position on the university pyramid

470
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: and their informal alliances determine the extent to which the

471
00:27:25,480 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: individual can escape accountability for his or her actions. Academics

472
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,040
Speaker 1: and lower tears are very dependent on the good graces

473
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 1: of their supervisors and others with influence over promotional decisions.

474
00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:42,119
Speaker 1: If an academic in the upper echelons of the power

475
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: structure commits some wrongdoing, his or her subordinates might feel

476
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,640
Speaker 1: pressured to disregard it or to come to the professor's defense.

477
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 1: And this dynamic also, according to some adjuncts, enables bullying. Yeah,

478
00:27:56,119 --> 00:27:59,639
Speaker 1: that is pale as old as time. During my time

479
00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:03,159
Speaker 1: trying to get my PhD, my agnetic was exactly my experience,

480
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 1: and I didn't make it very far along in my program,

481
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 1: you know. I I dropped out pretty early on, and

482
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:15,640
Speaker 1: so my experience was only ever as a adjunct, as

483
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,280
Speaker 1: a t A, as a graduate assistant. When I was

484
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:23,080
Speaker 1: teaching at Howard, I was a full time but untenured instructor,

485
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: which actually was the best experience I ever had because

486
00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:27,680
Speaker 1: there were so many of us, and Howard as a

487
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 1: practice at the time did not employ adjuncts, at least

488
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: in my department, and so you did feel like you

489
00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: had some power in numbers because the university really needed us,

490
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,600
Speaker 1: Like like if we had all walked off the job,

491
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: the university, the English Department would like cease to exist.

492
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 1: But in other university settings, you know, when you are

493
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:51,280
Speaker 1: a t A or an adjunct, you just don't feel

494
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 1: like you have a lot of power. And it's such

495
00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,800
Speaker 1: a dependent relationship, like whoever your mentor is that can

496
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: be the difference betweenhen or not you can pay your

497
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: rent or not, whether or not you have to move

498
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,360
Speaker 1: home or not, or drop out or that you know,

499
00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: whether or not you get funding for a project, or

500
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: you get a teaching assistantship like that could be the

501
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 1: difference between you eating or not. And when you're an adjunct,

502
00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:16,960
Speaker 1: if anyone's out there had been an adjunct, you make

503
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: such bad money, like for like three months work, you

504
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,600
Speaker 1: might make like, you know, dollars, you know the amount

505
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: of money I made when I was adjuncting and I

506
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,720
Speaker 1: was driving all over the state right like I would

507
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 1: in one morning I would be at the University of

508
00:29:31,440 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: Maryland and then the next two hours later I would

509
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: be in Arlington's teaching another college. It was a very

510
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: tenuous professional time in my life. And you just really

511
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 1: don't have a lot of power, and unless you're like

512
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 1: independently wealthy, it's such a tenuous situation that, I mean,

513
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 1: I would be terrified to speak up of something that

514
00:29:52,240 --> 00:29:54,880
Speaker 1: this happened if I was an adjunct or a graduate

515
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 1: assistant or a t A. And we're talking about academia

516
00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: right now, but it a lot of this, a lot

517
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: of what we're talking about reflects other things in me too,

518
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 1: or people who commit sex crimes, like the support of

519
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,400
Speaker 1: colleagues of Ronell and that letter defending her brilliance, like

520
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 1: we we heard that after after Louis k after Woody Allen,

521
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: after Roman Plansky, or his contributions are very valuable to

522
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 1: the field, Like we heard that after Bill Cosby and

523
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:27,920
Speaker 1: Harvey Weinstein. Yeah, we just hear this a lot. It's

524
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: reflecting in what we're talking about today. Yeah, and it

525
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 1: just goes to show that it really is about power,

526
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 1: who was who was perceived as having it, and who

527
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:40,360
Speaker 1: was perceived as worthy of protection and worthy of support.

528
00:30:40,800 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 1: And I hadn't even thought about this, but if you

529
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 1: were at n y U, if you were in this

530
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: program and you saw the way these very important people,

531
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:54,880
Speaker 1: I mean, Judith Butler is hugely, hugely, hugely influential in

532
00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: this field, if you were someone who was marginalized or

533
00:30:58,200 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 1: you know, you were a t A or an adject

534
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: or some thing and something had happened to you, and

535
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: you saw the way these hugely important figures circled the

536
00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:10,920
Speaker 1: wagons to throw this the accuser under the bus and

537
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: be like, oh, we know the accuser, we know we

538
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 1: know that they're full of it. Wouldn't you stay silent?

539
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: I mean, it just creates this atmosphere that certain people

540
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: will get protected and certain people will be thrown under

541
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 1: the bus and you have to decide which one you

542
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 1: want to be. I would think twice before speaking out

543
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 1: if I saw this go down, and a part of

544
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 1: me probably in the back of my head, I would

545
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,320
Speaker 1: be like, I'll just wait it out, or I'll just

546
00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:39,840
Speaker 1: try to minimize my contact. And I think that's something

547
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,520
Speaker 1: that bugs me so much, is that. And I know

548
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:44,960
Speaker 1: I'm like focusing on Judith Butler, but like reading Gender

549
00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 1: Trouble in undergrad during my you know, getting a degree

550
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,520
Speaker 1: women's studies, that was a foundational feminist text for me,

551
00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: and I'm just so disappointed in her. Like Judith Butler,

552
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: if you hear this, I really looked up to you

553
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 1: and you were foundational and me understanding my role in

554
00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: this world as a woman and as a feminist. And

555
00:32:04,160 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 1: I'm really disappointed in you. This hurts and I think

556
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 1: that friendships are important, but I think you need to

557
00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 1: understand how many people out there. You are a model

558
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 1: of what it means to be a feminist for a

559
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,840
Speaker 1: lot of us, and you want to know what this

560
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: feels like for us. I'm really disappointed in Drewith Butler,

561
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 1: and this is really kind of affirming for me as

562
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: someone who is like academia. You know that the politics

563
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 1: that are involved in academia get to people and they

564
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: lose themselves, they lose their sense of integrity, and they

565
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: can write the most badass takedowns and and you know,

566
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 1: screeds um feminism or what it means to be a woman,

567
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:48,640
Speaker 1: what it means to be queer, what it means to

568
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: be anything, and they can They're still not above being

569
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:58,880
Speaker 1: infected by this bullshit politics of academia and egos and power,

570
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,800
Speaker 1: and I mean, are corrupts. Power corrupts. I guess that's

571
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,920
Speaker 1: what I'm saying. And I guess I would have thought

572
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 1: that these feminist leaders would have more integrity. And I'm

573
00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 1: just very disappointed and how this has all shaken out.

574
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 1: I mean, you saw those emails. You saw that she

575
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 1: talks about kissing her grad students in those emails. She

576
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: does not say she didn't send those emails. She knows

577
00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: she sent them. Like, how do you account for that?

578
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 1: How do you square that circle? I just I need

579
00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: to know, you know, as I I feel personally invested

580
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 1: in this in a weird way. It really sucks, It

581
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 1: really sucks. We have a little bit more to talk

582
00:33:33,600 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: about here, but first we're gonna take one more quick

583
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: break for a word from our sponsor, and we're back.

584
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: Thank you, sponsor. The bottom line is nobody is above

585
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: the law, not because they're brilliant, not because they're accomplished,

586
00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: not because they're a woman, not because they're your but

587
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:03,480
Speaker 1: a no one is it of the law. Olivia gold

588
00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,960
Speaker 1: Hill was just really well at courts, She writes. In

589
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,080
Speaker 1: a society that takes sexual violence seriously, all accusations must

590
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 1: be investigated, suggesting that an investigation I had of any

591
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,520
Speaker 1: decision is in and of itself an injustice, shows a

592
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 1: total lack of concern for victims of this widely underreported crime.

593
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,279
Speaker 1: Many of those who signed this letter defending Ronow are

594
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: feminist theorists who support these principles in theory. In practice,

595
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 1: there should be no exceptions to these rules, even when

596
00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 1: the professor under investigation is a woman. And I just

597
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 1: she puts it so well I could not agree more too.

598
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: And like she said that quote, and like we said

599
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:47,200
Speaker 1: at the beginning, this is really underreported crime, and dismissing

600
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:51,399
Speaker 1: someone an accuser of an under reported crime is doing

601
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: more damage, is having ripple effects for people who may

602
00:34:54,880 --> 00:34:58,360
Speaker 1: be worth thinking about speaking up about harassment they're facing,

603
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 1: and then just see this. It just has a lot

604
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,600
Speaker 1: more damage than I think at first glance. Some people

605
00:35:04,680 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 1: might realize, Yeah, one of my good friends, she wants

606
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,640
Speaker 1: to put a status on Facebook that said something along

607
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,279
Speaker 1: the lines of, if we know that a lot of

608
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 1: us out there are the victims or have been the

609
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: victims of sexual violence and we don't often speak up,

610
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,600
Speaker 1: think about how those people are perceiving what you're saying,

611
00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,560
Speaker 1: you know, think about the people who are watching and listening,

612
00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 1: and they may not say, Hey, what you're saying is

613
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:32,680
Speaker 1: victim blaming. Hey, what you're saying is wrong, But they're there,

614
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,359
Speaker 1: we're listening, we're watching, and keep that at but you know,

615
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 1: like I'm sure Judea's butler and not for speak or

616
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,920
Speaker 1: thinking this is a one off thing. What's someone that

617
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 1: we like, Let's do her the solid of speaking up

618
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: on her behalf. But people are listening, people are watching,

619
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: people are absorbing the messages that you're giving when you

620
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 1: do that kind of thing. So that brings us to

621
00:35:54,760 --> 00:36:02,360
Speaker 1: the end of this episode. And two listener mail and

622
00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: we have another letter about fan fiction today. Uh Sarah

623
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,200
Speaker 1: wrote my perception of fan fiction was, and to some

624
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: degree still is, marred by the sort of stigma you

625
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 1: discussed in your episodes. Whenever I finished the show or

626
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,800
Speaker 1: book that I really enjoy, I go through the mild

627
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: depression that many people do, and I can no longer

628
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:23,359
Speaker 1: experience the story. This can sometimes be very hard on me,

629
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:25,480
Speaker 1: and I've looked down on myself for essentially not being

630
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 1: able to get over it and move on in the

631
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 1: real world. Because I was so ashamed of this tendency,

632
00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 1: I would look down on people who read or write

633
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: fan fiction as the people who couldn't get over it,

634
00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,319
Speaker 1: like I always forced myself to you. This winter, I

635
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 1: went into a depressive episode that both coincided with and

636
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: was complicated by my first entry into the world of

637
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: fan fiction. I think it was already depressed, and therefore

638
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: let myself start reading a fit because I felt so

639
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 1: generally bad. Then I felt ashamed that I had done

640
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 1: so and became even more depressed. This continued in a

641
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,479
Speaker 1: vicious cycle until am or two later I finally said

642
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:06,280
Speaker 1: get and started writing out my own story idea. After writing, editing,

643
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 1: and sitting on the story for a few months, I

644
00:37:08,040 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: posted it on a Oh three. It got fantastic reviews

645
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: in the comment and with this unexpected external affirmation, I

646
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,640
Speaker 1: essentially came out of the worst of my depression overnight.

647
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: I have issues with embarrassment and shame and many aspects

648
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: of my life, and I've struggled to tell people that

649
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 1: I've been writing fan fiction. However, these episodes of the

650
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 1: podcast helped me identify the outside reasons why fan fiction

651
00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,120
Speaker 1: is stigmatized and help me feel like reading and writing

652
00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,919
Speaker 1: it is a valid hobby that many people participate in.

653
00:37:38,080 --> 00:37:39,879
Speaker 1: I also used some of the points made in these

654
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 1: episodes as springboards to tell my friends and family that

655
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,480
Speaker 1: I've been writing fan fiction. They've all been very happy

656
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 1: for me, both because of the positive feedback I've received

657
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:52,359
Speaker 1: and because I've found a creative outlet. Writing fan fiction

658
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:56,240
Speaker 1: has been a very powerful and therapeutic experience. I've always

659
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 1: wanted to write, but I have been limited by how

660
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: hard it can be to invent new care actors and

661
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 1: worlds from scratch. Creating a plot line within pre established

662
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: universe broke down that barrier to entry, letting me explore

663
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,920
Speaker 1: my writing abilities right out of the gate. After the

664
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: first kit fix, I wrote a fix centered around a

665
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,440
Speaker 1: female character that I strongly identify with from one of

666
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 1: my favorite shows. In this fix, I explore emotions of

667
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,640
Speaker 1: failure and loss of control that I felt my own life,

668
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: but in an amped up, intensified way that's possible in

669
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 1: the high stakes situations that occur in the action adventure

670
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,360
Speaker 1: universe of the show. By writing out how this character

671
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: experiences and eventually overcomes these emotions, I stumbled into several

672
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: AHA moments applicable to my own anxiety and depression. As

673
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: an aside, because I've had so many issues around embarrassment,

674
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 1: and because this story has themes of not writing off

675
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:49,279
Speaker 1: your successes in the face of your failures, I'm going

676
00:38:49,320 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: to make a shameless plug for this fix, which I'm

677
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 1: very proud of. It's called The Gale, set in the

678
00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: Vultron Legendary Defender Universe and posted on AO three. One

679
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: person said it was the best pick they've ever read,

680
00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: and someone else actually proclaimed it literary genius. Many people

681
00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: have told me I'm excellent depicting emotions and made them

682
00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 1: cry multiple times. Based on the speedback, I'm planning to

683
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,959
Speaker 1: submit it to a fan fit contest just for fun.

684
00:39:15,320 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: If that sounds interesting to you, please go check it out.

685
00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: It's rated roughly TENA and up for language and depiction

686
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,720
Speaker 1: of injury and medical procedures. I love this so much.

687
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:29,040
Speaker 1: Congratulations on the great review, Sarah. I've been meaning to

688
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: check it out. I can't wait to read it. Um.

689
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 1: I'm really glad that fan fiction helped you, helped you

690
00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:40,319
Speaker 1: kind of learn more about yourself and how to deal

691
00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 1: with your depression. Um. I can I relate so much

692
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 1: to this, like writing a fan fiction and later realizing

693
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:50,279
Speaker 1: like I was dealing with something in a way that

694
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:52,719
Speaker 1: I didn't know. I didn't know how, so I was

695
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:54,720
Speaker 1: dealing with it through fan fiction and sort of coming

696
00:39:54,719 --> 00:40:00,880
Speaker 1: to solutions through fan fiction. Um. And it just it

697
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,040
Speaker 1: makes me really happy that you found this, this outlet,

698
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:08,200
Speaker 1: this avenue for creativity. Yeah. I love that too. I

699
00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,480
Speaker 1: mean you said that it almost snapped you out of

700
00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:14,279
Speaker 1: a depression almost overnight. That's incredible. Um. I also like

701
00:40:14,360 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 1: way to give a shameless plug. I can't wait to

702
00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:18,120
Speaker 1: read this. So go read Sarah's fan ficture because it

703
00:40:18,160 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: sounds amazing. Evelyn wrote, Annie asked us to give you

704
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: some insight into how the closed door policy works in Europe.

705
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 1: While I'm from hungry and our household closing the door

706
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:29,239
Speaker 1: is not a common thing. This is my experience from

707
00:40:29,239 --> 00:40:32,320
Speaker 1: my own of my friend's lives. Others might see it otherwise. Also,

708
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:34,680
Speaker 1: I live in an apartment complex, a very common thing,

709
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,080
Speaker 1: and hungry mine is a huge ten story building For

710
00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: closing your door on our family. In a tiny apartment

711
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: like this, you usually need a good reason. It might

712
00:40:43,160 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: be because, Hey, you go to sleep at night, be

713
00:40:46,520 --> 00:40:48,439
Speaker 1: your mom is cooking and you don't want the smell

714
00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 1: to come in, though most of the time you just

715
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,840
Speaker 1: need the smell to come in. It's way too good. See,

716
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,320
Speaker 1: you're listening to the same song over and over again,

717
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,360
Speaker 1: so your mom proceeds to march into your room and

718
00:40:57,400 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: scream at you while shutting your door. Same d You

719
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: have friends over and y'all are way too loud for

720
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: your mom's liking, and she doesn't want to listen to

721
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 1: y'all giggle. You and your mom both have your windows open,

722
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,160
Speaker 1: and the blowing wind outside the flat is way too

723
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: much for your mom, so she marches to your room

724
00:41:11,960 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 1: again to scream and close the door. Oh and this

725
00:41:14,560 --> 00:41:16,839
Speaker 1: is only closing the door. If you lock the door,

726
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,439
Speaker 1: that's the equivalent of you either A being very very

727
00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: extremely mad at your family or be having sex. In

728
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:26,040
Speaker 1: the case of A, I've only ever done this once

729
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: in the middle of a hissy fit and it was

730
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:30,200
Speaker 1: not well received. And in the case of B, you

731
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,200
Speaker 1: must lock the door because knocking is a small and

732
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 1: significant thing for parents sometimes. I hope I can give

733
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: you some inside into the Hungarian closed door policy. Um,

734
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:41,879
Speaker 1: that is hilarious and I was like dying laughing. Also

735
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: that surminds me of me like my mom coming in

736
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,720
Speaker 1: and slamming the door because I'm listening to the same

737
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 1: whole song over and over again. Um yeah, I would

738
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:54,800
Speaker 1: fit right in and hungry. Yeah, I've kind of forgotten

739
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,160
Speaker 1: about sleepovers in the My room was above my parents

740
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 1: dream and it was really squeaky, So like two am,

741
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 1: we we would hear the door open and we would

742
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 1: all like pop into beds or sleeping bags and pretend

743
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,319
Speaker 1: to no one We're fooling no one that would been

744
00:42:12,320 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: asleep this whole time. I love it. I love it. Yeah,

745
00:42:16,040 --> 00:42:19,800
Speaker 1: that was my experience as well. So thanks to both

746
00:42:19,880 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: of them for writing in. We would love to hear

747
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:23,920
Speaker 1: from you. If you'd like to write to us, our

748
00:42:24,000 --> 00:42:27,480
Speaker 1: email is mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com,

749
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: and you can find us on Instagram at Stuff I've

750
00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,680
Speaker 1: Never Told You and on Twitter. Mom Stuff Podcast, and

751
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: thanks as always to our producer, Kathleen Quillian