Speaker 1: This is the Bloomberg Surveillance Podcast.
Speaker 2: I'm Tom Keane, along with Jonathan Ferroll and Lisa Abramowitz.
Speaker 2: Join us each day for insight from the best an economics, geopolitics,
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Speaker 3: Live from the city of London, hometol for me, no secret,
Speaker 3: my favorite city on the planet. And I could say
Speaker 3: that because we've got a hime audience. Good afternoon, Good
Speaker 3: afternoon to you all. A special edition of Bloomberg Surveillance
Speaker 3: from our Bloomberg Global Credit Forum alongside Tom Kean and
Speaker 3: Lisa Brownitz. I'm Jonathan Ferrow TK. We couldn't aplan to anybody,
Speaker 3: could we.
Speaker 1: Yeah. They came to me like six months ago.
Speaker 2: Julie had her people calling me up, and Julie so
Speaker 2: we got to do this Pale I said I don't
Speaker 2: want to do it, and I said, you know, okay,
Speaker 2: we're gonna do this panel, but we need some theatrics.
Speaker 1: So she said, look, if.
Speaker 2: We can range of fed and the BOE, particularly the
Speaker 2: BOE five four decision to blow up the bond market.
Speaker 2: Over forty eight hours, we could probably get Zeldner and
Speaker 2: that's how this start.
Speaker 3: Let's get the two year something close to five, twenty
Speaker 3: ten year up to maybe four fifty.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: But the problem is is that the volatility, as Jim
Speaker 5: was saying, is all in the two year, the ten year,
Speaker 5: the thirty year. It isn't in the credit market, which
Speaker 5: is what you would expect. And people have been wondering, well,
Speaker 5: will actually matter for the fact that it's getting more expensive.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's real sophisticated yield up, price down, price down
Speaker 2: means assets are challenged. I don't care what flavor you
Speaker 2: have here of the ice cream of the fixed income market.
Speaker 2: The answer is coming out of this. Dare I say
Speaker 2: what Bojada is tomorrow? We've got moonshots in certain series
Speaker 2: and what I'm focused on more and this is my
Speaker 2: first question to Jim, is going to be the ten
Speaker 2: year real yield.
Speaker 3: We're all living this right now, and I think slowly
Speaker 3: over the last couple of months and then quickly internalizing
Speaker 3: that high for longer message across various central banks, but
Speaker 3: particularly the federal reserve. We're internalizing that increasingly, we're seeing
Speaker 3: it in the treasury market. Risk assets really resilient in
Speaker 3: the face of all of this. She's talking about it
Speaker 3: to real anominal ness, psycle highs and risk assets just
Speaker 3: pretty steady.
Speaker 2: Still, there's no question about that in the last eighteen months.
Speaker 2: But I'm going to go to the memory of Jim
Speaker 2: Curry out the door at Golden Sachs and Jim Curry
Speaker 2: and hydrocarbons.
Speaker 1: There he said, look, the real yield changes.
Speaker 2: It affects everything in the real economy, including all the
Speaker 2: investments of apollow really everything out There's no question.
Speaker 3: Jeff Curry is not in the audience, Jeff, he is
Speaker 3: this afternoon, Jeff, excuse Jeff Curry.
Speaker 1: It's late to day. I did last night.
Speaker 6: Three minutes into this. It's funny time from Mark. I'm
Speaker 6: going to bring in the guest.
Speaker 1: I'll bring in the guest right now.
Speaker 2: This is fun and it's really fun given where the
Speaker 2: markets are. He played lacrosse at Duke University, and I
Speaker 2: went back and I looked at the first day that
Speaker 2: Jim walked into Apollo, and the real yields about back
Speaker 2: to where we were in two thousand and six, we've
Speaker 2: come full circle. First of all, what was the first
Speaker 2: day like at Apollo, And what does it mean that
Speaker 2: the real yield, the ten year real yield is now
Speaker 2: back to where.
Speaker 1: It was in six seven.
Speaker 7: Well, first of all, thanks for inviting me today. I'm
Speaker 7: excited to be part of this great road trip, you know,
Speaker 7: taking back down memory lane. Apollo was a much smaller
Speaker 7: business back then. We were probably twenty billion in assets.
Speaker 7: We're six hundred and fifty today. The role of banks
Speaker 7: was much much different. There was a massive risk appetite
Speaker 7: that time in the world. But certainly if you go back,
Speaker 7: I think the world was very different, and I guess
Speaker 7: I would start out today saying, as you guys talk about,
Speaker 7: you know where real rates are. Basically what you're really
Speaker 7: saying is the cost of capital has gone through a
Speaker 7: massive reversal. And so all the activity going on in
Speaker 7: the last eighteen months between all the central banks of
Speaker 7: the globe, that was the mechanics of getting to this destination.
Speaker 4: But now we have the rebounds.
Speaker 7: We got out of Bounce for ten years that was
Speaker 7: priced way too cheap, and you were forced to go
Speaker 7: into equities and basically debt subsidize massive amount of equity returns.
Speaker 4: And so the last eighteen.
Speaker 7: Months, you know, the world now has about three hundred
Speaker 7: trillion in debt on one hundred trillion in global economy.
Speaker 7: Those numbers are up basically doubled in the last ten years.
Speaker 7: And when you go from zero to basically four or
Speaker 7: five percent, that's ten trillion of borrowing costs that have
Speaker 7: to be absorbed. And so there's a massive balance going
Speaker 7: on between debt versus equity and versus balance sheets.
Speaker 2: So yeah, I get folks, we're gonna turn this into
Speaker 2: a two hour seminar. Given where the markets are. We're
Speaker 2: arguing about this, I'm.
Speaker 6: Not sure they want this to become a two right now.
Speaker 2: Well, the answer is, I'm gonna let least in John
Speaker 2: do the heavy lifting here. I got one more question,
Speaker 2: which is the memory of nineteen ninety eight, which was
Speaker 2: about leveraging the system. It was about shadows in the system.
Speaker 2: Now that we're back here, and with the first and
Speaker 2: second derivdives of how we got back here, where are
Speaker 2: the shadows now?
Speaker 7: Well, certainly the wherever there's an asset liability mismatch. SVB
Speaker 7: was a perfect example. At people talk about regulation. It
Speaker 7: was just a simple not how you operate a financial
Speaker 7: services business.
Speaker 4: Where are there.
Speaker 7: Al mismatches you certainly, I don't think it's in the
Speaker 7: world of private credit. I think is probably a lot
Speaker 7: of consumer finance challenges around the globe right now. You've
Speaker 7: got way too much public debt right now.
Speaker 4: There's challenges.
Speaker 7: So there will no doubt be challenges for the next
Speaker 7: twenty four to forty eight months as you've got fund
Speaker 7: companies that have funded debt, laiden balance sheets of companies
Speaker 7: that have funded growth cap x and they cannot pay
Speaker 7: the piper right now.
Speaker 3: Everything you said in your opening remarks is what Lisa
Speaker 3: wrote about for the best part of a decade, right
Speaker 3: complaining about the previous regime. We're all trying to figure
Speaker 3: out if this is truly a new regime or just
Speaker 3: the moment in time that we move away from pretty quickly.
Speaker 3: Can we live with where real rights are right now?
Speaker 6: Can we live with that?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 7: I think that it's sort of we're getting back we talked.
Speaker 7: You say real rates, I say cost of capital. It's
Speaker 7: cost of capital for everything we do. If you think
Speaker 7: at the last ten or fifteen years, the growth of
Speaker 7: technology companies, the growth of biotech. There's some great companies
Speaker 7: out there, but they were funded with the equity, had
Speaker 7: all the benefit, and the zero cost of debt is
Speaker 7: not really sustainable.
Speaker 4: So this is the real world right now.
Speaker 7: Real rates are going to be higher the cost of
Speaker 7: capital as we go back to this balance, and I
Speaker 7: don't think it's a surprise this week as we were
Speaker 7: talking about earlier the ft ed by the two finance
Speaker 7: ministers of France and Germany talking about the European financial
Speaker 7: services sector and the role of banks.
Speaker 4: So there's a parallel path here.
Speaker 7: Conversation about how companies finance, how they get access to capital,
Speaker 7: the role of savings and securitizations.
Speaker 4: So it really is all tied together.
Speaker 5: Although are we really living with rates where they are?
Speaker 5: I mean, we take a look at these average rates,
Speaker 5: we see them in the numbers, but that's not what
Speaker 5: anyone's actually paying. Companies have already turned out their debt.
Speaker 6: So are we living with it?
Speaker 5: Are we going to see what it looks like to
Speaker 5: live with it in a year?
Speaker 4: I think we're not seeing it.
Speaker 7: So to highlight that comment, the mechanism, the transition mechanism
Speaker 7: which the feather would like to see in slowing down
Speaker 7: the economy, which we all expected, it's taken a lot longer.
Speaker 7: In the US, you have a mortgage market with thirty
Speaker 7: year mortgages at a three percent interest rate. You have
Speaker 7: the high yual market with a six percent coupon and
Speaker 7: an eight year duration. So the real impact of higher
Speaker 7: costs around the globe, in the US and Western Europe,
Speaker 7: it's not been felt yet. And so when people say, well,
Speaker 7: we're going to have a soft landing, I'm skeptical. I
Speaker 7: see a world where financial conditions have gotten tighter, and
Speaker 7: it's just a question of how long that transition mechanism,
Speaker 7: which will probably be longer than it's taken in the past.
Speaker 5: There are a couple different ways for us to get
Speaker 5: to something other than a soft landing. There's the crash
Speaker 5: and then rates going back down, and then there's something
Speaker 5: where it's just sort of a stagflation light or a
Speaker 5: stagflation proper, where rates remain high for a very long
Speaker 5: time and growth just slows substantially. It seems like the
Speaker 5: market is leaning into the ladder. How much does that
Speaker 5: change your perception of what's going to happen in.
Speaker 4: The credit space.
Speaker 7: Well, this conversation is going into one where we need
Speaker 7: to get torched in here because he's the economists of POWO,
Speaker 7: not me. But certainly what you're talking about is an
Speaker 7: environment where growth is more challenged and with how to
Speaker 7: companies access capital with a new price of marketplace. Certainly
Speaker 7: you have challenge whether it's in Germany or in the
Speaker 7: UK with a slowing economic growth. But there's a variety
Speaker 7: of aspects that we would see. Unemployment, while still very low,
Speaker 7: it's going in probably a more challenging direction. Delinquency needs
Speaker 7: are going up, the faults are going up a little bit,
Speaker 7: in the leverage loan market, in the high oal market,
Speaker 7: recoveries are lower. So there's a lot of points would
Speaker 7: say to you that there's going to be a more
Speaker 7: challenging tightening financial conditions. But certainly for us, the US
Speaker 7: has been quite strong, the UK, there's still a lot
Speaker 7: of areas to lend. There is on Western Europe as well,
Speaker 7: so I do I guess the theme that I would
Speaker 7: take away from this is that we're going from a
Speaker 7: decade of a real imbalance where the equity was the
Speaker 7: big beneficiary, debt paid a crazy price. That balance has
Speaker 7: been completely changed to one hundred eighty degrees, And now
Speaker 7: how do companies navigate, how does the financial services, how
Speaker 7: to banks, how to alternative asset managers? How do we
Speaker 7: all balance and navigate this marketplace ahead of us?
Speaker 6: Is this the return of the bond vigilantes?
Speaker 4: Then, well, I.
Speaker 7: Do think when people talk about when the central banks
Speaker 7: are going to actually lower rates, I think it will
Speaker 7: happen well before they actually get around to it, just
Speaker 7: like it happened on the upside in terms of rates.
Speaker 7: There's no doubt that one of the challenges of the
Speaker 7: last fifteen years of the regularory environment is you've had
Speaker 7: so much capital withdrawn from these marketplaces in terms of
Speaker 7: trading desk capital, So the amount of capital to trade
Speaker 7: one hundred or a billion dollars of ten year treasuries
Speaker 7: right now, that has a greater impact. So there's no
Speaker 7: doubt that any kind of activity in the secondary markets
Speaker 7: will have a pronounced impact. And that's that's just that's
Speaker 7: just the way of the regulatory impact post GFC. But
Speaker 7: for us, I mean, if you're in my seat at Apollo,
Speaker 7: there's been four trends since I got in the business.
Speaker 7: There's been massive technology improvement, there's been massive globalization, there's
Speaker 7: been massive deregulation, and the fourth there's been a decline
Speaker 7: of interest rates. Other than technology, you're probably having those
Speaker 7: tailwinds be massive headwinds as an investor now, so.
Speaker 4: How do you navigate that? How do you organize yourself?
Speaker 7: But I do think in terms of investors, it's a
Speaker 7: time to be a.
Speaker 2: Big technology change is the Bloomberg terminal.
Speaker 3: Everyone needs a blomback time and everybody is out the pitch.
Speaker 3: We done this, Okay, We're done. Earlier in the conversation,
Speaker 3: Jim mentioned that joint op ed that was in the
Speaker 3: Financial Times. The headline, for those of you didn't read it,
Speaker 3: we must close the EU Capital markets gap. Can you
Speaker 3: talk to me about how Europe goes about doing that?
Speaker 3: Because me, Tom, Lisa, this whole audience has heard that
Speaker 3: a million times in the last ten years.
Speaker 6: How do we close that gap?
Speaker 7: Well, I think let's talk about how we got here.
Speaker 7: We got here a POSTGFC where a lot of tools
Speaker 7: that have been used to push risk out of the
Speaker 7: banking system that I think have been successful in some
Speaker 7: regions of the globe. The European regulators took a different view.
Speaker 7: They took a dim view of securitizations. I would argue
Speaker 7: that if you look at securitized product that's actually been
Speaker 7: very good for the banking system and aggregate, it's push
Speaker 7: risk out to the real owners of risk. If you
Speaker 7: look at other things that they talk about about shareholder activism.
Speaker 4: But I do think.
Speaker 7: There's got to be an embracing of these types of
Speaker 7: tools to allow greater activity, because I think it's creating
Speaker 7: a bit of financial services stagnation.
Speaker 2: Tursan Slot called me up one day and he said,
Speaker 2: you know, you really ought to look at the Austrian piece.
Speaker 2: So I loaded the boat in the ninety seven year
Speaker 2: Austrian bond that really has worked out well. I'm don
Speaker 2: like seventy percent or whatever. Tell me about what duration
Speaker 2: is going to do and choice of duration is going
Speaker 2: to do given this new environment back to six seven
Speaker 2: o eight.
Speaker 7: You know, again, when I think about the world, I
Speaker 7: think about long duration.
Speaker 4: But we what we do, we do what Apollo is, We're.
Speaker 7: Really trying to figure out places where we're not taking
Speaker 7: credit risk or duration risk. I'm just creating great spread.
Speaker 7: So whether it's fixed income replacement, I certainly believe that
Speaker 7: the world has been on that textbook of if you
Speaker 7: want to make money in fixed income, you got a duration.
Speaker 4: I think that's it's an interesting way to look at
Speaker 4: the world.
Speaker 7: I think you're getting paid right now and risk free
Speaker 7: rates to some degree.
Speaker 4: Whether they go a little bit higher or wider.
Speaker 7: I certainly know for us at apollow for us, whether
Speaker 7: it's in the investment grade world, public and private, whether
Speaker 7: it's in private capital. When we can make high single
Speaker 7: digits ten percent being a lender, that's a great business.
Speaker 1: Do you headge into that? I mean we do.
Speaker 7: We are our business. If we are most of our
Speaker 7: business is unlevered. But if we do have any kind
Speaker 7: of leverage in our business, we match alm complete asset
Speaker 7: liability matching all the way through.
Speaker 5: So it's better for you now, right private or public.
Speaker 5: You said that private is sort of immune, and yet
Speaker 5: a lot of people think it's just not traded. So
Speaker 5: you can't see some of the carnage that you see
Speaker 5: in some of the IPOs of arm sure and instacart.
Speaker 7: So what's your view there, Well, I think certainly if
Speaker 7: you look at an aggregate, it's hard to make money
Speaker 7: in the public markets. Is an aggregate statement equity and debt,
Speaker 7: certainly with the valuations where they've backed out in terms
Speaker 7: of where rates are right now or risk free rate. Yes,
Speaker 7: there's some opportunities in the investment grade world, but if
Speaker 7: you look at high yield indexes and leverage loan indexes,
Speaker 7: they're arguably rich. They're rich for a lot of technical
Speaker 7: reasons and so our ability. Again, when we talk about
Speaker 7: private credit, most people you talked about earlier, they talk
Speaker 7: about really the sponsor finance market. The reality is, whether
Speaker 7: it's inventory finance, trade finance, solar finance, there's a massive
Speaker 7: thirty to forty trillion dollar opportunity in terms of the TAM.
Speaker 7: So that's where we're spending most of our time creating
Speaker 7: great safe spread yield really on investment grade companies.
Speaker 4: This sounds like a bank, Well, I would say is
Speaker 4: we are a credit lender.
Speaker 7: We provide credit, and we do it in a manner
Speaker 7: where we're not using a balance sheet that we can
Speaker 7: lose deposits tomorrow. We have long tail liabilities and we
Speaker 7: match those.
Speaker 5: A lot of people have said, particularly in the banking sector,
Speaker 5: they're going after their lunch and that they have to
Speaker 5: follow pretty significant regulations and you don't have to, and
Speaker 5: you have fixed capital and it's kind of what it
Speaker 5: sounds like in terms of the size and the scope
Speaker 5: that you need to achieve. It's kind of taking on
Speaker 5: a lot of the functions that banks used to fulfill.
Speaker 5: Is that the business model right now?
Speaker 7: Well, I think our business model so if you look
Speaker 7: at our six hundred and fifty billion today, three hundred
Speaker 7: and fifty billion comes from retirement services, balance sheets, fixed annuities.
Speaker 4: The other half is the GP model.
Speaker 7: We're able to lend money to air France, to Venovia,
Speaker 7: the big German real estate companies. We can do that
Speaker 7: in a manner where we are solving the company's problems,
Speaker 7: and many times we're doing it in conjunction with a
Speaker 7: advisor or a bank. There's a narrative out there that
Speaker 7: we win, the banks lose, or vice versa. The reality
Speaker 7: is we are doing more in collaboration than we've ever
Speaker 7: done before. We have a big venture with BNP and
Speaker 7: Inventory Finance. They've got an amazing franchise. We partner with
Speaker 7: them so they can manage their capital in a more
Speaker 7: efficient way. But the reality is there's more collaboration. And
Speaker 7: people say, are you frenemies, are you opponents? Are your
Speaker 7: competitors it's all the above. We work very closely with
Speaker 7: them and they work closely with us.
Speaker 6: To make some news.
Speaker 3: There was a headline yesterday Apollo looking to raise about
Speaker 3: two point five billion to len in private markets, according
Speaker 3: to people with knowledge of the matter. We're talking to
Speaker 3: someone with knowledge of the matter.
Speaker 6: Maybe, are you.
Speaker 3: Looking to raise about two point five billion dollars to
Speaker 3: lend a private markets?
Speaker 7: You know, we're an active player in the extension of
Speaker 7: senior loans to sponsors. We're active in many of these businesses.
Speaker 7: We've got a four hundred and twenty five billion dollar
Speaker 7: credit business. The fact is we built this business not
Speaker 7: expecting real yields and absolute yields to beat these levels.
Speaker 7: We thought it was going to be lower for longer.
Speaker 7: We created all these origination platforms. So the reality is
Speaker 7: today investors around the globe are clamoring and they're saying, way,
Speaker 7: on a risk adjusted basis, we can do this in
Speaker 7: the credit markets or in the debt markets.
Speaker 4: Why do we need to take that equity risk?
Speaker 7: And I think that's why you're seeing a preponderance of
Speaker 7: conversations about from sovereign funds to foundations to pensions around
Speaker 7: the globe. Saying we can make what we had to
Speaker 7: take equity risk in the past. We can do it
Speaker 7: on the death side of the balance sheet.
Speaker 3: I think, yes, yes, you are looking to raise two
Speaker 3: point five Well, we're recently, we.
Speaker 7: Have a we have a large platform, we're one of
Speaker 7: the we're one of the handful of great players in
Speaker 7: the world.
Speaker 4: We're raising How.
Speaker 1: Does that work? Do you make like six phone calls?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I travel quite a bit.
Speaker 7: If you ask my family, I travel a little bit
Speaker 7: more than those six phone calls. But you know, we
Speaker 7: we have several thousand LPs around the globe, and my
Speaker 7: schedule could be packed up going to visit.
Speaker 6: I can see a policy.
Speaker 3: Are right now, Jim, you were not meant to say yes.
Speaker 6: Just keep talking and answer the question. Jim.
Speaker 3: Let's go back to spring. Spring was really messy. Banks
Speaker 3: failed in America, and I remember sitting down and we
Speaker 3: had guests come on the program with a some Bloomberg surveillance,
Speaker 3: and lots of guests said, we started a process here,
Speaker 3: it's the end of the cycle. There's going to be
Speaker 3: a hard landing. It's only several months ago.
Speaker 6: What was that.
Speaker 7: I think it was a expectation of what was happening
Speaker 7: at that moment was going to happen uh completely. And
Speaker 7: the reality is this is a big, broad global The
Speaker 7: consumer plays a massive role in it. Back to my
Speaker 7: common earlier about three percent mortgages on thirty years, The
Speaker 7: US consumer really has not. We may have taken rates up,
Speaker 7: but the real impact of this higher cost, the second,
Speaker 7: the third derivative, it's early still, it's really early, and
Speaker 7: I think that's the difference between you know, there is
Speaker 7: no doubt the health of the US consumer has what
Speaker 7: allowed us to extend the economic cycle. But I don't
Speaker 7: think I think they're eating through some of their savings.
Speaker 7: And there's no doubt that there's a more that the
Speaker 7: tightening of financial conditions is going to be out there,
Speaker 7: and you know, we're finding more companies coming to us
Speaker 7: trying to solve their financing needs going forward.
Speaker 2: There are other firms challenged because they decided they were
Speaker 2: going to go off and do something different, new, original,
Speaker 2: and they're selling things for a haircut. You're probably involved
Speaker 2: in those transactions. How do you avoid worse practices? You
Speaker 2: guys have grown this thing from next to nothing. The
Speaker 2: private world is in right now.
Speaker 1: You're doing brain drain.
Speaker 2: You're taking all the smart guys from Wall Street over opile.
Speaker 1: Everybody knows the ballet.
Speaker 2: How do you avoid the worst practices we observe every
Speaker 2: day on the show where things blow up through the street.
Speaker 7: Well, the biggest accident you can do as you grow
Speaker 7: is to offer people liquidity on ill liquid assets. And
Speaker 7: so I don't think it's a surprise. We don't. We're
Speaker 7: not in the business of offering daily liquidity in any.
Speaker 4: Of our products.
Speaker 7: We run our products, we really match the assets to
Speaker 7: the liabilities, and again I think that's really a core
Speaker 7: to how we.
Speaker 4: Run our business.
Speaker 7: The second is we've for the last six seven years,
Speaker 7: we've continued to go senior senior senior in the capital structure.
Speaker 7: We're doing more investment grade companies. We're doing larger companies.
Speaker 7: Witness what we've done with as I mentioned earlier, Air France,
Speaker 7: or At and T or Venovia, big quality companies. So
Speaker 7: also when we underwrite something, for the most part, we
Speaker 7: bring in partners. We want others to take a look
Speaker 7: at what we've done. We're really good at underwriting credit
Speaker 7: at risk. We brought a lot of that credit oversight
Speaker 7: that is so valuable at many of the financial institutions.
Speaker 7: But we have to make sure we're really measured and
Speaker 7: we focus on the three businesses that we're in right now.
Speaker 5: Jim, what are you doing with the books they already
Speaker 5: hold of debt and equity that is valued much lower.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's one thing to talk about future lending opportunities, Sure,
Speaker 5: what about the ones he already did?
Speaker 4: Well, let's talk about our business.
Speaker 7: So today I have the six hundred billion equity is
Speaker 7: around the sixth of our business about one hundred billion.
Speaker 7: We've been very very clear in our private equity business
Speaker 7: in our flagship vehicles to fund more so with fixed
Speaker 7: rate debt and really extend those maturities. For the most part,
Speaker 7: we have been really not levering to the max. If
Speaker 7: you could lever companies five six times, we typically borrow lent,
Speaker 7: borrowed about three to four times, so we were we
Speaker 7: didn't we didn't borrow as much, and we did it
Speaker 7: for term at fixed rates. That's really important that what
Speaker 7: we learned in eight oh nine it wasn't we were
Speaker 7: the smartest guys in room, is that we had the
Speaker 7: best capital. And if you had the best capital and
Speaker 7: didn't get pulled away from the table. That's usually a
Speaker 7: critical aspect of success.
Speaker 3: That takes us to our final question to wrap things
Speaker 3: up with the Jim, in a world of high uncertainty
Speaker 3: and low confidence, do you have a high conviction call
Speaker 3: looking at in this market right now?
Speaker 4: Well, I think that you have to assume.
Speaker 7: I think there's going to be what we call some
Speaker 7: big fat pitches out there, the reorganizing and the restructuring
Speaker 7: and the refinancing of the entire CIRA universe. You have
Speaker 7: to be marshaling resources around that. You have to make
Speaker 7: sure that if you are lending capital today, you're doing
Speaker 7: so on senior basis with a tremendous amount of equity
Speaker 7: underneath you. So for us, I mean certainly, we're in
Speaker 7: three businesses. We've been very, very disciplined about what we've done.
Speaker 7: We have had a lot of human capital. It's been
Speaker 7: amazing for our company to pivot and grow. But really
Speaker 7: to make sure that we stay true to our alignment,
Speaker 7: our risk adjusted returns and making sure that purchase price
Speaker 7: does matter. Are very focused on the creation value of
Speaker 7: our businesses.
Speaker 1: Man, you lost.
Speaker 3: Last night is that what happened against the opportunity is
Speaker 3: that we go to the Glass.
Speaker 1: And yeah they lost to the Garry Kanes.
Speaker 6: So anybody I was trying to make some news, Yeah,
Speaker 6: I'm trying to make something. You want to buy football clupy.
Speaker 7: You know, we we have an active you know, we
Speaker 7: have an active lending business, and we've done a variety
Speaker 7: of things in the world of sports entertainment.
Speaker 4: But we really are to know this time.
Speaker 3: Can we have a run of applause for Pollows Jim's outside. Jim,
Speaker 3: thank you, Thank you very much, and thank you to
Speaker 3: all of you for joining a special edition of Bloomberg
Speaker 3: Surveillance Life for the City of London.
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