1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:13,880 Speaker 1: Y'all, there's a new true crime series. They dive into 2 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:18,159 Speaker 1: the dark corners of what human beings are capable of. 3 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: And I'm quoting straight off their website, good stories about 4 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: bad people who do very bad things. Now, I'm going 5 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,440 Speaker 1: to tell you, in my business, I see a lot 6 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:36,680 Speaker 1: of what bad decisions, bad relationships, bad car wrecks, bad people, 7 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:42,640 Speaker 1: bad drugs. Everything that is bad, I see it, and 8 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 1: I can tell you there is a difference between bad 9 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:53,199 Speaker 1: and devent. The name of this new podcast is Devent 10 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 1: and that ought to tell you right there that the 11 00:00:55,680 --> 00:01:01,360 Speaker 1: two hosts that have over sixty years experience in journal, TV, 12 00:01:02,000 --> 00:01:07,480 Speaker 1: radio podcasting. Y'all, they're going to bring you some stories. Y'all. 13 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: Just ain't ready, That's all I can tell you. Honey, 14 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,000 Speaker 1: y'all just got to listen, and you know, turn the 15 00:01:13,080 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 1: lights out, get your blanket, and be afraid because it's coming. So. 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: I have known Drew for over twenty years. When we 17 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: first met, he was working with Nancy Grace And let 18 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 1: me tell you a story. You know, you don't always 19 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:35,120 Speaker 1: trust everybody around your children, But there was occasion that 20 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: I would be on the show and I did not 21 00:01:37,360 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: have a babysitter. My husband wasn't home, my sisters weren't available, 22 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: and I would have to take hunting Caroline with me. 23 00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: When they were really small, drew with babysit for that hour. 24 00:01:48,760 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 1: He would entertain them in the green room. They would 25 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:55,200 Speaker 1: play soccer with a Pham coffee cup. He told them 26 00:01:55,240 --> 00:01:58,320 Speaker 1: to play that football game where you fold the thing 27 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: in paper and a train and flick it. They just 28 00:02:02,120 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 1: adored hanging out with him. He was always so kind 29 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:10,280 Speaker 1: and so sweet to them, and always a professional because 30 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:12,440 Speaker 1: let me tell you, he's been a writer, a producer, 31 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 1: a journalist over twenty years at CNN and h O N. 32 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: He is a veteran of the true crime space. He 33 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,320 Speaker 1: is an award winning podcaster. He is part of the 34 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: podcast Down the Hill with our friend Barbara McDonald and 35 00:02:28,480 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: y'all know how stellar that was. Also, he has been 36 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: part of My Zone seven for twenty years, so I 37 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:41,880 Speaker 1: cannot wait to welcome him along with his buddy and 38 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:44,640 Speaker 1: co host Dan. Let me tell you about Dan. He 39 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:49,639 Speaker 1: has spent his entire career in audio production. He's been 40 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:53,639 Speaker 1: a producer, he's been an editor. He also has been 41 00:02:53,680 --> 00:02:59,360 Speaker 1: with CNN, American Public Media and MPR, or should I 42 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:04,680 Speaker 1: say and MPR. Most recently, he was the head of 43 00:03:04,800 --> 00:03:09,040 Speaker 1: audio for Warner Brothers Discovery. I mean, y'all, they know 44 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: what they're doing. They know how to put these stories together. 45 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,800 Speaker 1: They are visual people, but they bring it to the 46 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: audio version and they paint a picture for you. It 47 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:23,799 Speaker 1: is just stellar. Dan and Drew. I cannot thank you 48 00:03:24,000 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: enough for being here with me on Zone seven. 49 00:03:27,080 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 2: Well, Cheryl, it's good to be here. 50 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:29,640 Speaker 3: We're gonna with that, We're gonna exit. 51 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: Hey, I left a lot of stuff out because I'm 52 00:03:34,600 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 1: gonna tell you we have a lot of friends in common. 53 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 2: We do. 54 00:03:38,240 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 3: We do. 55 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: Barbara McDonald, who I've already mentioned, Susan Hendrix who everybody loves, Indoors, 56 00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. So again, y'all have worked with a lot 57 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: of people. So if the reputation wasn't exactly what I said, 58 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 1: we'd know it by now. 59 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: We still have time to ruin it. 60 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, just wait, there's always time, Dan. 61 00:03:58,160 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, thanks so much for having us. We really appreciate 62 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 3: your time. And when you told me how old Huck 63 00:04:04,560 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 3: and Caroline are now and about made me keel over. 64 00:04:07,840 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 3: I'm glad. I'm glad to hear that they're doing well. So, yeah, 65 00:04:11,720 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 3: thank you so much for having us. We really appreciate it. 66 00:04:14,640 --> 00:04:17,120 Speaker 1: I want to tell you y'all are doing this thing right, 67 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: because I always preach there's nothing like going to a scene. 68 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:24,240 Speaker 1: You've got to walk it, you've got to absorb it 69 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,479 Speaker 1: to truly understand it. But when you get the people 70 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 1: that are from that place, from that town, from that city, 71 00:04:31,040 --> 00:04:34,560 Speaker 1: from that street, that's when you really get to the 72 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: heart of the matter. And that is something y'all do 73 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: on Deviant that is just extraordinary. So tell us a 74 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: little bit, and I'll just start with you, Drew. How 75 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,680 Speaker 1: y'all came to this podcast, this way of doing it 76 00:04:47,920 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: and getting to the people. 77 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean I think when Dan and I. 78 00:04:51,920 --> 00:04:54,279 Speaker 3: Dan and I have obviously, as you said at the top, 79 00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 3: we worked on Down the Hill together and he and 80 00:04:56,760 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 3: I had been talking about doing a show, another show 81 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 3: of some kind for a long time, and frankly, I 82 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 3: had been, you know, towards the end of my time 83 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 3: at HLN, I had been reading and listening to the 84 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 3: Israel Keys Case a lot, and just kind of I 85 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 3: was really fascinated with it because the interesting thing about 86 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: it is that you don't often get the volume of 87 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 3: sound from someone who has done the things he's done. 88 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 3: And I thought, there's got to be something we can 89 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 3: do with this, and it's tailor made for a podcast, right. 90 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 3: So Dan and I'd been talking about a show and 91 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,560 Speaker 3: doing some stuff, and I finally said, look, there's this 92 00:05:32,839 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 3: interesting case of this guy who you know, I have 93 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 3: heard of just because I've been in the true crime 94 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 3: space for so long. But I don't know if most 95 00:05:40,600 --> 00:05:44,640 Speaker 3: people know who this guy is, and b I don't 96 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:48,239 Speaker 3: know that they know that readily available is the ability 97 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:50,400 Speaker 3: to hear all of the things he is saying about 98 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 3: what he's. 99 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,000 Speaker 2: Done, like fifteen hours worth, right. 100 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 3: And so I think what we determined was what better 101 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 3: way to build a new show than around this this content. 102 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 3: And I want to be clear, like Dan and I 103 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,560 Speaker 3: from the jump, this is not an attempt to like 104 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 3: grandstand or glorify or give someone a platform that doesn't 105 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 3: deserve it. I think what we wanted to do really 106 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,159 Speaker 3: was we wanted to take these tapes in this sound 107 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 3: from this guy and try to use it as an 108 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 3: opportunity to learn about people who operate this way, right, 109 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:26,480 Speaker 3: And because I think that one of the important things 110 00:06:26,560 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 3: is like, you know, just listening to it for listening's 111 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 3: sake is not really doing anything. We wanted there to 112 00:06:31,760 --> 00:06:34,400 Speaker 3: be value, and I think there's value in hearing what 113 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:38,360 Speaker 3: someone like this thinks, does, says and trying to apply 114 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 3: that to the larger world and the people that operate 115 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,559 Speaker 3: this way, because unfortunately there are more people like Israel Keys. 116 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: We just don't know about them, right, So that was 117 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:50,680 Speaker 3: kind of our goal. I think Dan might have some 118 00:06:50,720 --> 00:06:53,040 Speaker 3: more to add, but that's that's the way we kind 119 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 3: of approached it. 120 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:55,839 Speaker 2: Yeah, there are a couple things about Israel Keys that 121 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 2: intrigued me once once Drew started talking to me about him. 122 00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: There was all the wrong material, Like there was just 123 00:07:01,440 --> 00:07:04,479 Speaker 2: hours and hours and hours of tape of him in 124 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: the interrogation room after he was captured, right, So we 125 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 2: had that to sort of work off. But the overarching 126 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,000 Speaker 2: story of him is also fascinating too because it's a 127 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 2: continuing and ongoing mystery. He was an active serial killer 128 00:07:18,760 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: from about two thousand and one until twenty and twelve 129 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 2: is what the FBI believes. He was captured in twenty twelve, 130 00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:29,960 Speaker 2: and he actually killed himself in prison after about eight 131 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 2: or nine months in custody, so we didn't get his 132 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: full sort of body of work, if you will. We 133 00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 2: know about some of his crimes at the very beginning 134 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: of his life, and we know about some of his 135 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 2: crimes at the very end of his life. He's admitted 136 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 2: to three of those murders. But it's this big in between, 137 00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: the sort of decade in between, which we sort of 138 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,080 Speaker 2: call our trail of maybes, that we're trying to make 139 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,080 Speaker 2: sense of. And that's sort of the big question we're 140 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 2: asking in the show is just how far did Israel 141 00:07:56,960 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 2: Keys go? You know, how many people did he actually 142 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 2: how many people did he actually victimize? And to do that, 143 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 2: you know, we listened to the tapes, We dove through 144 00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: all the FBI documents and police documents we got a 145 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 2: hold of. That's about four thousand documents there, and we 146 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 2: talked to the people who actually knew him, and the 147 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 2: police who captured him, and the police who interrogated him, 148 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:20,840 Speaker 2: and for FBI profilers, you know, we just really want 149 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 2: to understand this person to try to answer that question, 150 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 2: to chase the truth about how far did he actually go? 151 00:08:27,040 --> 00:08:30,000 Speaker 2: The FBI thinks he killed eleven and they think that 152 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 2: because a few months before his suicide, they during a 153 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 2: jail cell check, they uncovered eleven skulls, a drawing of 154 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 2: eleven skulls, you know, drawn in his own blood, with 155 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 2: the phrase we are one, also drawn in his blood. 156 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 2: So that's why they think it was eleven. Because his 157 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: mo was so unique and meticulous, unprecedented. 158 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: Yes, agreed, next level, And you know, I want to 159 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,599 Speaker 1: mention or piggyback I guess on something that Drew was 160 00:08:58,640 --> 00:09:02,480 Speaker 1: talking about. I think it's equally as important that we 161 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 1: talk about the entire scope of this person because he 162 00:09:07,280 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 1: is next level. There was nobody like him. He did 163 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 1: study other criminals. And you know we've already mentioned my children, 164 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: but you know, when they were tiny, I never told 165 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,839 Speaker 1: them there was no such thing as monsters because I 166 00:09:20,920 --> 00:09:23,280 Speaker 1: knew better. There absolutely are. 167 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I mean that's the only word to really 168 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 3: use to that qualifies for him. 169 00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 1: I want young detectives to listen to his own seven. 170 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 1: I want police officers that are rookies to listen to 171 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: his own seven because they may think they know Israel Keys, 172 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:41,800 Speaker 1: but they may not realize he was also a bank 173 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:45,880 Speaker 1: robber and a narsonist and a burglar. So again, you 174 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:47,800 Speaker 1: may go man, I want to be on homicide. I 175 00:09:47,800 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: don't want to work burglary squad. Don't sleep on book 176 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,559 Speaker 1: the burglar, honey, because that might be your serial killer. 177 00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 1: That could be your serial rapist. 178 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,400 Speaker 2: When he was captured, they had no idea what they 179 00:09:59,480 --> 00:10:01,560 Speaker 2: had on their hand, right, they were trying to track 180 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 2: down a kidnapping and you know, he had taken a 181 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: girl named Samantha Konig from Anchorage, Alaska, and he was 182 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: captured via a kidnapping investigation and manhunt. There was a 183 00:10:14,160 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: suspicion that, you know, she may be deceased, but they 184 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 2: didn't know that there was hope that she would be 185 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 2: captured alive. And they had no idea that he was 186 00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: a serial killer, nun. He flew totally under the radar, 187 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:28,319 Speaker 2: you know, and that's because his mo again was so meticulous. 188 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,120 Speaker 2: He would bury kill kids and random locations across the country, 189 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 2: you know, and then just leave them there and come 190 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,720 Speaker 2: back a couple of years later dig him up. And 191 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: he had no victimology whatsoever, So he would just kill 192 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: was seemingly random people that he would come across. 193 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: He was terrifying, and Dan, that's something that is terrifying 194 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:47,360 Speaker 1: because you're talking about somebody that has the self control 195 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:48,640 Speaker 1: to wait two years. 196 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:51,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not something you've seen in serial sexual offenders 197 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 2: very often. 198 00:10:51,960 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: Right, that's right, Cheryl. 199 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 3: You mentioned control, which is a very very important part 200 00:10:56,679 --> 00:11:00,680 Speaker 3: of this conversation about Israel Keys, because he was you know, 201 00:11:00,720 --> 00:11:04,680 Speaker 3: we say meticulous, like he was almost neurotic about his planning. 202 00:11:04,720 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 3: He was, you know, ocd to the core about making 203 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:12,360 Speaker 3: sure he didn't do things where he lived, making sure 204 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 3: that he didn't bury kill kids near where he lived, 205 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,800 Speaker 3: making sure that he covered his tracks. I mean when 206 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 3: you look at his travel, I mean it's efficient is 207 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 3: not the word. He would fly to you know, fly 208 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 3: to Chicago, drive to New England, commit a murder, drive 209 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 3: back to Chicago, fly back to Alaska. I mean everything 210 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 3: about him was control, right, But what tripped him up 211 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 3: in the end, the reason he and the metaphor we 212 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 3: use in the podcast is the reason he was a 213 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 3: shark under the water for so long is because he 214 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:44,600 Speaker 3: did it that way. But what prompted him to come 215 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 3: to the surface was he finally lost control. And what 216 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,840 Speaker 3: he did is he used a debit card, and he 217 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,760 Speaker 3: used it a few too many times, and he was 218 00:11:53,800 --> 00:11:57,000 Speaker 3: also and he says in these conversations that he was 219 00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 3: at a point in his string of crimes where he 220 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:03,800 Speaker 3: was getting a little bit irrational. He was getting a 221 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 3: little bit I guess sloppy for lack of a better term, 222 00:12:06,520 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 3: and he lost control and he used Samantha Koenigg's debit card, 223 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 3: and he used it all throughout Texas and the Southwest. 224 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 3: And that's why the FBI was able to catch it 225 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: because for so long this guy who was such a 226 00:12:19,280 --> 00:12:24,720 Speaker 3: control freak and so you know, detail oriented, completely lost Great. 227 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: Now, Dan, let me ask you something. In all of 228 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: y'all's research, did you see anything in his background when 229 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: he was younger, anything that you flagged is oh, this 230 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 1: started this whole path to be in a killer. 231 00:12:41,280 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 2: That's a great question. There's the classic debate about these 232 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: sorts of offenders. You know, are they born or are 233 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:52,679 Speaker 2: they made right? And the answer for Israel Keys, you know, 234 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:57,479 Speaker 2: could be yes both. Because he had a very unusual upbringing. 235 00:12:57,960 --> 00:13:03,280 Speaker 2: He was one of nine children and his parents were 236 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 2: it's the best way to put this, It was sort 237 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:08,320 Speaker 2: of cult hop right from the late seventies. Israel Kis 238 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 2: was born in early seventy eight nineteen seventy eight and 239 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:15,400 Speaker 2: his parents were originally associated with Mormonism, and eventually they 240 00:13:15,480 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 2: joined a sect of Mormonism that was too extreme for 241 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:20,920 Speaker 2: even Mormons, and. 242 00:13:20,840 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 3: They were even in the Amish community at one point 243 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 3: too right, and sort of where they landed. 244 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:29,719 Speaker 2: They landed in Colville, Washington, in Washington State, which is 245 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,120 Speaker 2: sort of the north central right north near the Canadian border, 246 00:13:33,160 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 2: part of Washington State. And he spent a long time 247 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 2: there as a child, and it was there that his 248 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:44,800 Speaker 2: parents and his family's hooked up with this Christian identity movement. Now, 249 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,599 Speaker 2: if you're not familiar with Christian identity, that's you know, 250 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,240 Speaker 2: it's rooted in white supremacy and anti semitism and anti government. Right, 251 00:13:54,280 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 2: we're talking about the Timothy McVay types. And that's sort 252 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 2: of the environment in which he grew up and talked 253 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 2: to people who knew him during that time and who 254 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: were also part of the community, and he was extreme 255 00:14:06,440 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 2: even for them from an early age. Right. You know, 256 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,800 Speaker 2: they would they would get together and you know, for 257 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:14,800 Speaker 2: social events, you know, and you know he would come 258 00:14:14,840 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 2: out and just say these you know, we're talking about 259 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:19,280 Speaker 2: the twelve thirteen, fourteen years old. He would come out 260 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,800 Speaker 2: and talk about, you know, just horrible things. You know, 261 00:14:21,840 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 2: there's a story where he this is always a difficult 262 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 2: one for me to handle, I'm bed with animal abuse, 263 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: but there's a story where he tells, you know, a 264 00:14:32,240 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 2: story about where he did horrible things to a cat 265 00:14:34,720 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 2: in front of an audience and of kids that were 266 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,080 Speaker 2: around thirteen fourteen years old with him, and you know, 267 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 2: the kids were throwing up, and that was a lesson 268 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 2: for him that he was unusual, he was not normal. 269 00:14:47,200 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 2: That he needs to start hiding his behaviors. He needs 270 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 2: to start being careful about talking about you know, burgling 271 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 2: and burning things down and telling people about it or 272 00:14:56,160 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 2: telling people about it or trying to get them to 273 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 2: participate with him. Right, So he knew he was different 274 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,720 Speaker 2: from an early age. Now, it should be noted that 275 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,880 Speaker 2: with all that background, he did have eight siblings, none 276 00:15:06,880 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: of them are serial killers. Right, So was he born broken? 277 00:15:10,720 --> 00:15:14,120 Speaker 2: Was he born a monster? Or was he made into one? 278 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 2: I'm guessing this is just me. I'm guessing that you know, 279 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 2: that environment, if you're inclined to become that sort of person, 280 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: that's the kind of environment that could grow that seed 281 00:15:24,080 --> 00:15:24,520 Speaker 2: if you will. 282 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:28,400 Speaker 3: He also those early years, like he didn't go to school. 283 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:31,440 Speaker 3: He was homeschool and you know, he was not around 284 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,360 Speaker 3: I presume there was not a lot of socialization, right, Like, 285 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 3: there was not a lot of like hanging out with 286 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 3: a big group of kids and like learning the social 287 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,080 Speaker 3: skills that come with going to school. He was a loner. 288 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 3: The family didn't have electricity. At one point they found 289 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 3: guns of his and as a result, he actually moved 290 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 3: into his own kind of cabin on the family property. 291 00:15:54,760 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 3: So everything about his upbringing and adolescence and youth is 292 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 3: very much rooted in kind of an isolationist ecosystem. 293 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 2: You know, it's interesting when you listen to the interrogation tapes, 294 00:16:08,080 --> 00:16:10,120 Speaker 2: there is never you know, if he is to be believed, 295 00:16:10,160 --> 00:16:11,720 Speaker 2: and that's always a big question with these you know, 296 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 2: serial killers lie, right, that's just part of their makeup, 297 00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 2: so they're crafting their own narrative. But if he is 298 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 2: to be a belief when he's talking about his own childhood, 299 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: you hear no regret. No, I knew something was wrong 300 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 2: with me, I knew I had to change. I felt 301 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 2: guilty about feeling this. There was none of that. There 302 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 2: was just a pure recognition and embrace like I'm different, 303 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 2: this is who I am, and you know what, I'm 304 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 2: okay with that. I just have to hide it because 305 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,520 Speaker 2: no one else feels like that. But this is who 306 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 2: I am, and let's go. 307 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 3: One of the other interesting things that we kind of 308 00:16:42,240 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 3: delved into, Cheryl is that from the people we spoke with, 309 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 3: his father, from all indications, was a pretty domineering force 310 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 3: in the house and was and I think from what 311 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 3: we've learned is there was some contention between Israel and 312 00:16:58,320 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 3: his father. And you know, whether that was rooted in 313 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 3: whatever they were doing spiritually and religiously, I'm not sure. 314 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:07,320 Speaker 3: But there was something that jumped out of me in 315 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:08,959 Speaker 3: some of the tapes that we were listening to when 316 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,640 Speaker 3: Keys was talking about his youth and he was talking 317 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 3: about Arson specifically, and one of the things he wanted 318 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:18,280 Speaker 3: to do early on was he wanted to set fire 319 00:17:18,320 --> 00:17:22,119 Speaker 3: to a church. And Dan and I were listening to that, 320 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:23,679 Speaker 3: and the first time we listened to it, it kind 321 00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 3: of went right past us. But upon second listen, I 322 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,159 Speaker 3: said to Dan, I was like, wait a second, I 323 00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 3: think that might be some sort of projection of like 324 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:36,640 Speaker 3: his disdain for religion, his disdain for that entire part 325 00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 3: of his life and I think that all is baked 326 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,439 Speaker 3: into who he was and who he became. And he 327 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,560 Speaker 3: even alludes to a period of his life where he 328 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 3: dabbled in Satanism. 329 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, he branded himself with a pentagram and an upside 330 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: down cross. You know, he did that stuff too. 331 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 3: So religion was actually, even though he wasn't involved in 332 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 3: it towards the later part of his life, that had 333 00:17:58,640 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 3: a huge bearing impact, some sort of influence on him 334 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 3: from an early age. 335 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 1: So I'm basically hearing no red flags at. 336 00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 2: All, right exactly if that's another thing like where he 337 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 2: grew up, there was no one to raise red flags. 338 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:18,280 Speaker 1: Right, No, of course, But I mean saying bouncing around. 339 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: You know, I got a buddy, Betsy Ramsey, that has 340 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 1: what she calls the too theory. When somebody is too religious, 341 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: too mean, too crazy, too rich, too arrogant, you know, 342 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 1: too mean, whatever it is, you know, you focus on 343 00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,880 Speaker 1: that to look for the other obvious flags. So here 344 00:18:37,960 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: you have a child that bounces around, has no real friends. 345 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:43,800 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about siblings. I'm talking about, like Drew 346 00:18:43,920 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 1: was talking about, being social with people. The religious aspect 347 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: is clearly something that is too, that's over the top. Right, 348 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: most people don't have to go from being hey, we're 349 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:59,080 Speaker 1: going to be Mormon today and now we're going to 350 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,280 Speaker 1: be a Quaker and we're going to be Methodists. I 351 00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:04,439 Speaker 1: mean that's a pretty good jump, right, So the family 352 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 1: was jumping for some reason. And if the dad is, 353 00:19:07,600 --> 00:19:12,479 Speaker 1: you know, too authoritative. There's animal cruelty obvious. And this 354 00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:15,760 Speaker 1: always strikes me when somebody says, well, I didn't know 355 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: it was wrong. So you're going to take a live 356 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: animal and harm that animal in front of other people 357 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,920 Speaker 1: when you've never seen that, You've never seen another child 358 00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:29,760 Speaker 1: do that, no matter what church you've ever been in, 359 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: no matter what organization y'all been in, but you do it, 360 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: and then you're shocked at their reaction. There's a lot 361 00:19:37,720 --> 00:19:41,480 Speaker 1: of flags here that I think even the family had 362 00:19:41,480 --> 00:19:42,040 Speaker 1: to know about. 363 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:46,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, in some ways, you know, there are many ways 364 00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 2: in which he is different and unique as a serial killer, 365 00:19:49,520 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 2: but there are some ways there were some similarities too. 366 00:19:52,359 --> 00:19:54,399 Speaker 2: Right out of the few of her crossed paths with 367 00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:59,199 Speaker 2: Mary Ellen O'Toole, formerly the FBIBA Behavior Analysis Unit, she 368 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:01,720 Speaker 2: talked to us about Key and you know, we sort 369 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 2: of catalogue some of the things these behaviors as you know, 370 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 2: when he was a kid, and very classic in some ways, right, 371 00:20:08,440 --> 00:20:11,320 Speaker 2: he has harmed animals, He loved to burn things down, 372 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 2: He was breaking into houses. His first major crime was 373 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: a sexual assault, and you know, you could see that 374 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:23,080 Speaker 2: pattern of vescalation, right. And he talks about and this 375 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 2: is one of the things, you know, we're really trying 376 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:26,919 Speaker 2: to get our hands around, and I don't think we 377 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,080 Speaker 2: have it. We're still working on it. Is. He talks 378 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:31,640 Speaker 2: about how when he joined the army in nineteen ninety 379 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,479 Speaker 2: eight or so, so he would have been you know, twenty, 380 00:20:34,960 --> 00:20:37,120 Speaker 2: that was sort of the period of his life where 381 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 2: he learned to embrace who he was, right, you know, 382 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 2: he went from acceptance to okay, now I know who 383 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 2: I am. This is where I'm going to start planning 384 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 2: how to do things right. We don't know if he 385 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 2: committed any murders or major crimes in the army. We've 386 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 2: heard whispers, we've heard rumblings, we've tracked his movements, but 387 00:20:54,520 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 2: there's been nothing, just like the FBI. And if the 388 00:20:57,480 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 2: FBI can't do it, it's tough for out to do it, 389 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 2: you know, tie any one particular thing to him. But 390 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,440 Speaker 2: this is the period when he came out of the army. 391 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 2: That's when people started disappearing. 392 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: You know. And that's interesting because what in Timothy McVeigh 393 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: in the military too, he. 394 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 3: Was and he was also very much involved in groups 395 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 3: that were fringe on the outside of you know, government 396 00:21:19,800 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 3: and religion and all of that stuff. 397 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, he's not the only killer obviously that 398 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,520 Speaker 1: joined the Armed Services. So did BTK, so did Leonvey Oswald. 399 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: That's a whole that's a whole other thing that while 400 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:36,119 Speaker 1: they would be attracted to that entity. But you know, again, 401 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 1: what Timothy McVeigh keeps coming up, and y'all touched on 402 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:45,160 Speaker 1: the fact that Israel had this group that was anti government, 403 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: you know, hated everybody. But I don't know if y'all 404 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:52,399 Speaker 1: come across this in your research, but McVeigh joined the 405 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: clan and they basically threw him out because they're like, hey, dude, 406 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: you're a little out of bounds. 407 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:01,000 Speaker 2: For us for the Klan. Wow, it's a little much. 408 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 2: It's a little much for us. 409 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I mean what kind of calling card is that? Dan? 410 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 2: Right? 411 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 3: And it should be noted the people we talked to 412 00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:12,000 Speaker 3: that New Keys when they were in this community, they 413 00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:13,679 Speaker 3: are no longer a part of that community. They have 414 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,679 Speaker 3: since disavowed all those beliefs. They've since completely left that 415 00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 3: organization and are very vocal about you know, what that 416 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,080 Speaker 3: group preaches and does to people. What I just wanted 417 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,439 Speaker 3: to say is that coming up in that group, he 418 00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: actually you mentioned Cheryl that he didn't have any friends. 419 00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:31,880 Speaker 3: One of his friends was a guy by the name 420 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 3: of Chevy Keyho who has been convicted for killing an 421 00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 3: entire family in Arkansas in the name of white supremacy. 422 00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,360 Speaker 2: They ran around the woods together, Chevy brother in Israel Keys. 423 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:44,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, Chevy So chevy Key, Oh, for those that don't know, 424 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:50,360 Speaker 3: is a pretty well known white supremacist, anti government convicted Murty. Yeah, 425 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:53,400 Speaker 3: he's kind of in that McVeigh mold. And so he 426 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 3: was friends with Israel Keys and they ran around the 427 00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,120 Speaker 3: woods together, and so you know, you got to wonder 428 00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,680 Speaker 3: what kind of influence did that have on him. So 429 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 3: it was it was really this oxix swirl of all 430 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 3: of these things on top of like Dan said, you know, 431 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 3: are you are you born this way or you built 432 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:10,600 Speaker 3: this way? If he was born this way, this toxic 433 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 3: swirl on top of that was just the perfect storm, 434 00:23:13,400 --> 00:23:14,360 Speaker 3: right right. 435 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:16,320 Speaker 1: And you know, I want to clarify when I said 436 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: he didn't have any friends, I meant like going to school, 437 00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: playing Little League, joining boy Scouts. I meant that kind 438 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:23,800 Speaker 1: of thing, like you know the kids down the street, 439 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: y'all grow up together, regular socialization. Right, Yeah, he had 440 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: zero with that. But again for him to hook up 441 00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:33,239 Speaker 1: with that person you want to talk about, that just 442 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: had to make the devil so happy. One thing that 443 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,280 Speaker 1: y'all do on Deviant that I think is so brilliant, 444 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: Like you already mentioned talking to Agent O'Toole, but y'all 445 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: have also talked with Detective Jeff bell An FBI agent 446 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: Jolene Godin. And again I know both of you and 447 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:01,160 Speaker 1: y'all have the natural ability to not just talk to people, 448 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,920 Speaker 1: but get people to talk to you. And I tell 449 00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: young officers and young detectives all the time if you 450 00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,679 Speaker 1: have that, it's a gift. You can't teach it. You 451 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:14,080 Speaker 1: just can't. People are either going to trust you and 452 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:16,760 Speaker 1: want to talk to you or they don't. And both 453 00:24:16,840 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: of you have that. So when y'all get these folks, 454 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:23,600 Speaker 1: I think it's brilliant the way you bring them in 455 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: and assist you in understanding the overall tell us about 456 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:29,159 Speaker 1: issual Keys. 457 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 2: From your point of view my philosophy, and I think 458 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 2: Drews as well, the best thing you can do is 459 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: a storyteller, is get out of the way, be the 460 00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,240 Speaker 2: connective tissue between the actual people in places that were involved. 461 00:24:39,400 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: It makes perfect sense, it does. 462 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 3: And honestly, you know, just from a practical standpoint, you 463 00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 3: know interviewing these people. Interviewing is hard, right, and getting 464 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 3: people you know to feel comfortable is not easy. But 465 00:24:53,080 --> 00:24:55,199 Speaker 3: like it's all about people skills. D and I've had 466 00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 3: this conversation of like it's really just you know, I 467 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 3: am a journalist as a journalist, and we're sitting down 468 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:02,320 Speaker 3: and talk to an FBI agent. But like, at the 469 00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:03,760 Speaker 3: end of the day, we're just people, man, We're just 470 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 3: having a conversation. I also subscribe to Dan's point, which 471 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:09,919 Speaker 3: is that you do get out of the way, like 472 00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:12,160 Speaker 3: you just lob it up there and you let them go, right, 473 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 3: and so yeah. 474 00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:14,959 Speaker 2: And you also have to meet them where they are 475 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 2: in a certain way because you know, while they're professionals, 476 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 2: talking to people like Israel Keys or for people who 477 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 2: knew them, knew him as a friend, like this is 478 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 2: a pretty intense part of their life, right, it probably 479 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 2: means something to them that we can't understand. So you know, 480 00:25:32,240 --> 00:25:34,879 Speaker 2: we can't go into talking with these to these folks 481 00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:37,880 Speaker 2: with an agenda we need to get this like we 482 00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,600 Speaker 2: need to show ourselves as the master interviewer. No, Like, 483 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 2: what we need to do is just give them the 484 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 2: space and conference to tell their story, their way, with 485 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: their truth, because their truth is the in their perspective, 486 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: is the only one that they can share. And that's 487 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 2: what that's what we want. 488 00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: No, I agree, you know, and I say all the time, 489 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,040 Speaker 1: who cares what I think? Especially if I wasn't there. 490 00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:01,520 Speaker 1: I want to hear from those people too. So again, 491 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,400 Speaker 1: the way that y'all provided for everybody listening, I think 492 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,280 Speaker 1: is just the best way to truly understand and make 493 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:10,120 Speaker 1: your own mind up. 494 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,399 Speaker 2: And that that's the thing, like making your mind up 495 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,680 Speaker 2: is the entire Israel Keys sort of conundrum, right, Because 496 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 2: you know, I said earlier, the FBI thinks he did eleven. 497 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:24,000 Speaker 2: But just because of the way his mo was right, 498 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 2: he could in the way that serial killers, you know, 499 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 2: mix the truth with falsehoods. It could be less, it 500 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,600 Speaker 2: could be more, it could be eleven. He said, things 501 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,959 Speaker 2: like you know, yeah, but Canadians don't count, right, Uh, 502 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,119 Speaker 2: we know he had extensive travel in Canada, So I 503 00:26:41,119 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: mean there's all sorts of what ifs. Maybe could this 504 00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:47,719 Speaker 2: be true about him? His you know, death at his 505 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 2: own hand really cut off the primary flow of information. 506 00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 2: And there's still kill kids out there, Cheryl. There's still 507 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,440 Speaker 2: kill kids out there, and there's probably still victims out 508 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,440 Speaker 2: there that you can say there might still there's probably 509 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 2: still bodies out there, definitely still out there if you 510 00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 2: believe eleven, because they only know about. 511 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: Four, right, And you remember Bundy when Bundy was asked 512 00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: the number and he said at a zero. But again, 513 00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: what's true what's not true? 514 00:27:11,160 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, Bundy loved Bundy. 515 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: Bundy did love Bundy well. 516 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 3: And Israel Keys loved Israel Keys, And Jeffrey Dahmer loves 517 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 3: Jeffrey Dahmer and John WAYN. Gasey loves John Wayne Gasey. 518 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:25,320 Speaker 3: It's a classic. Although what's interesting about Keys that is 519 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,640 Speaker 3: different from those guys that we just mentioned is that 520 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 3: Keys was not really a glory hound, right, Like, he 521 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:38,040 Speaker 3: was not seeking adulation and adoration and like you know, 522 00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,280 Speaker 3: like BTK got in trouble because he wrote the letter 523 00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:43,080 Speaker 3: to the news station again like he got tired of 524 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,359 Speaker 3: not being paid attention to Israel Keys seemed to be 525 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:48,359 Speaker 3: perfectly content. 526 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:50,440 Speaker 2: I'm just doing this for me and Drew. 527 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 1: That is so smart because if you look at BTK 528 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:58,880 Speaker 1: and Zodiac and Son of Sam, they were so arrogant 529 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: they gave themselves nicknames. Here's my moniker, call me this. 530 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: Israel Keys was so far under the radar. He didn't 531 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: want you to know nothing about it. 532 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 2: No, he said in interrogation tapes that he got a thrill, 533 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,640 Speaker 2: he got adrenaline rushes. You know, part of what he did, 534 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 2: why he did what he did, in his words, is 535 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 2: that he was able to fool people. He loved people 536 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 2: not knowing who he actually was, being able to fool people, right, 537 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 2: being those two separate people like that was part of 538 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,920 Speaker 2: the thing that drove him, and you know, gave him pleasure, 539 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 2: right just hiding it for people successfully. 540 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 3: And he told investigators multiple times like he was like, look, 541 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,200 Speaker 3: I know what you're gonna do. You're gonna go talk 542 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,760 Speaker 3: to my army buddies. You're going to go talk to 543 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 3: my family, You're going to go talk to my coworkers. 544 00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 3: But he was very clear, and he says it, and 545 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 3: we got it in the show. Is like, he's clear 546 00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 3: about saying, you aren't going to find anybody. You can 547 00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 3: go as far as you want into my past, but 548 00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 3: you're not going to find anybody who's going to go. Yeah, 549 00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 3: I knew that was him. He's like nobody, with the 550 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 3: exceptions of maybe the folks in his early teen years, 551 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:04,880 Speaker 3: he thought he was a little bit creepy, but he 552 00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 3: was like, I know you're going to ask everybody you 553 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 3: can find, but I'm telling you now, I'll say ive 554 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,960 Speaker 3: you all the work. Nobody's going to tell you that 555 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:12,640 Speaker 3: I am who I really am. 556 00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: And because he was so flawless with his execution, he 557 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,440 Speaker 1: knew it. And you know, here's the thing. I've heard 558 00:29:21,560 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 1: a ton of people say that Coburger is a criminal 559 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:28,720 Speaker 1: mastermind because of his master's degree and his PhD work, 560 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:32,000 Speaker 1: and they believe that he's just killed all these people 561 00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: all over the United States. But I've said, there ain't 562 00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: no way that's true because he ain't good at it, right. 563 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: He got caught in and is uh probably you know 564 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:41,960 Speaker 2: I think that I think those were that was. 565 00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: His first crime the first time out me too well. 566 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 3: And also and also no disrespect to people who have 567 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 3: multiple degrees. But having a PhD does not make you 568 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 3: a genius. 569 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 2: Preach Israel. He's had a ged and that's it. 570 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: And not having a PhD doesn't mean you're not a genius. 571 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: It works both ways. But if you work and look 572 00:30:03,280 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: at how he accomplished this, if he is guilty that 573 00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,760 Speaker 1: using his own car, using his own cell phone, you know, 574 00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,240 Speaker 1: leaving the knife sheet behind, getting traffic tickets, being around 575 00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: there eleven straight days before, I mean, that's horrible work 576 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 1: if you're a seasoned serial. 577 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 2: Killer, especially someone who studied serial killers right as Coburger 578 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,800 Speaker 2: allegedly did it. Right, It's interesting you mentioned that Keys 579 00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 2: also studied serial killers. He talks about that, right, he 580 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:33,360 Speaker 2: talked about That's why. 581 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,800 Speaker 1: I'm bringing it up. But he truly studied Bundy. That's 582 00:30:36,840 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: the difference. 583 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, he studied Bundy. He studied his favorite. His 584 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 2: favorite killer was h. H. Holmes. He says he hated BTK. 585 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 2: That's an interesting serial killer on Serial Killer Drama. He 586 00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:51,240 Speaker 2: hated BTK because BTK showed remorse. 587 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,160 Speaker 3: He also said when they asked him about his favorite ones, 588 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 3: he said, my favorite favorites are the ones that haven't 589 00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 3: been caught. And so yeah, he did have this reverence 590 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:02,959 Speaker 3: for all these people that we that we know of 591 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,280 Speaker 3: the John Wayne Gacies and Dammers. He didn't have reverence 592 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 3: for them at all. He actually there was like a 593 00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 3: it was a disdain because it was like, oh, they're amateurs. 594 00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 3: They got caught. But what I was going to say 595 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:12,720 Speaker 3: is that, you know, we were talking about how he 596 00:31:12,800 --> 00:31:15,480 Speaker 3: is not He was not a glory hound. What is 597 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 3: evident though, is that when he gets in the interrogation 598 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 3: room with investigators, that is where he finds his glory. 599 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 3: And for hours throughout the entire process of being questioned 600 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 3: by Detective Jeff Bell, Agent Joelane godin the US Attorney's office, 601 00:31:33,840 --> 00:31:37,280 Speaker 3: it's a constant negotiation. It is a push and pull, 602 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,200 Speaker 3: it's a tug of war, and there's oftentimes he's in control. 603 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 3: You can hear him completely seize control of the conversation. 604 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 3: And his bargaining chip was what was interesting too, because 605 00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 3: what he was seeking was his own death. He wanted 606 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,640 Speaker 3: the federal government to execute him, right, and he you know, 607 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 3: he couldn't understand why that was such a difficult request. 608 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 3: So he was, you know, kind of holding the information 609 00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:06,040 Speaker 3: hostage that he had to share until you know, the 610 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 3: federal government was able to commit to giving him an 611 00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:12,520 Speaker 3: execution date. But he doesn't understand. He wasn't savvy enough, 612 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 3: or maybe he did know. 613 00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 2: I don't know. We can never know that. That's it's 614 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 2: just not that easy. The you know, the Justice Department 615 00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 2: can't just say, okay, we'll kill you in a year, right, 616 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 2: It's it's not that easy. Right, they're automatic appeals, you know, 617 00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 2: Presidents and judges have to agree to that kind of stuff. Yeah, 618 00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: clearly this is something he seemed to genuinely want. But 619 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 2: you could hear as the tapes progress over time, over 620 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,920 Speaker 2: a period of months, that he is getting more frustrated 621 00:32:37,960 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 2: with the lack of movement there, and you know he 622 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 2: does shut down for a little bit. You know, it's 623 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,920 Speaker 2: just so a lot of these tapes, it's not all 624 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,880 Speaker 2: him admitting to horrible things. A lot of it is 625 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 2: just negotiation and you know, back and forth, back and 626 00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:54,840 Speaker 2: forth about how much media coverage he's getting or not 627 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 2: getting about an execution date, about what Vermont Wanter doesn't 628 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 2: want to you know, relation into one of the crimes 629 00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 2: he did. It's a lot of that, right, But those 630 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 2: moments where he does sort of lock in and talk 631 00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:09,120 Speaker 2: about the things he actually does. You can almost hear 632 00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 2: his voice change, right, detectives who are in the room, 633 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 2: you know, and you probably experienced this first hand, Cheryl say, 634 00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: you know that when these folks start talking about the 635 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 2: things that they did, you can almost see their eyes change, right, 636 00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:23,640 Speaker 2: their physical change. 637 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: They have tails, There's no doubt about it. 638 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, Keys was like so excited. You could 639 00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:30,720 Speaker 2: see him like rubbing the he you know, we were 640 00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: told that he rubbed some of the wood off the chair, like, 641 00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:34,440 Speaker 2: well he was talking about this stuff. 642 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: Well, you know, I say it all the time, but 643 00:33:36,680 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: it's the biggest, most important thing they will ever do 644 00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: in their life. This is it. Nobody's going to ask 645 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,320 Speaker 1: him about construction work, nobody's going to ask him about 646 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:47,560 Speaker 1: his childhood, nobody's going to ask him about his education. 647 00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,880 Speaker 1: This is all they care about with him, and that's 648 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,360 Speaker 1: really all he cares about. Nobody is a part time 649 00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: serial killer. This is what he did twenty four to seven. 650 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 1: It's what he thought about, it's what he prepared for, 651 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,080 Speaker 1: it's what he practiced, it's what he educated him. Cell phone, 652 00:34:04,400 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: this was it, This was everything. 653 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 2: Last time we talked to Cheryl, I remember you talking 654 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 2: about your approach to assessing a crime scene and assessing cases. 655 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:15,240 Speaker 2: And forgive me if i'm is it the three sixty 656 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:16,680 Speaker 2: vour text? Is that what it's called? 657 00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: Yeah? Three sixty one, Yeah, three sixty. 658 00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: One vourtext part of me. I remember you talking about 659 00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 2: that and how you did that, and that was in 660 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 2: my head as we started diving in on this stuff. 661 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 2: And you know, I sort of used a you know, 662 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 2: bastardized version I suppose of that of of what you did. So, 663 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 2: but I just try to look at all these things, 664 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:38,520 Speaker 2: and you know, the paperwork in the in the and 665 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 2: the documents, and you know, the tapes of this person 666 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:42,960 Speaker 2: and that person this person, just kind of look at 667 00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 2: it from all sorts of different angles, look at it 668 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,080 Speaker 2: from every direction, right And I still can't say right 669 00:34:48,120 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 2: now because we're still making the show. You know, we're 670 00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:52,480 Speaker 2: making an episode by episode whether or not we're going 671 00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 2: to come to any conclusions about Israel. Keys definitely did 672 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 2: this that that that you know, FBI hasn't confirmed. I 673 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 2: think we have some lean but you know, we're still 674 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 2: working on that process. We're at the very beginning of 675 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,640 Speaker 2: our journey here and we've read our first two episodes 676 00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 2: are out now or for third episode is about to release, 677 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,480 Speaker 2: and you can get it. You can listen to it 678 00:35:13,680 --> 00:35:16,960 Speaker 2: anywhere you get podcasts, anywhere you get podcasts. So you know, 679 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: please check it out. If you like it, give us 680 00:35:19,680 --> 00:35:23,160 Speaker 2: a follow or subscribe and leave a rating and review. 681 00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:25,919 Speaker 2: That really helps to you know, interact with us too. 682 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:29,840 Speaker 2: We're pretty active on social on Instagram and on TikTok. 683 00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:33,799 Speaker 2: We are at deviant dot podcast and come talk to us. 684 00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,399 Speaker 1: You know. I have four sisters and there was one 685 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: summer we were all at the pool and my mom 686 00:35:43,480 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: was a lifelong educator, and we all had like different 687 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,440 Speaker 1: magazines like I guess my sisters had teen or whatever, 688 00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 1: and I was reading a comic book and one of 689 00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:55,919 Speaker 1: the other moms there was like, I can't believe you, 690 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,120 Speaker 1: as a teacher would let her read a comic book, 691 00:35:58,520 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 1: like I should be reading more and page or something. 692 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:05,000 Speaker 1: And my mom was like, reading is reading, and if 693 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: she's excited about it, that's the point. Well. I always 694 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:12,839 Speaker 1: have subscribed to Training is Training. So again, if we 695 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: have a rookie officer or a young detective hearing this 696 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: show and they go wait a minute, I got to 697 00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,040 Speaker 1: click over to Deviant real quick. I want to hear 698 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: these tapes. Training is training is training. So I appreciate 699 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,640 Speaker 1: y'all given this in a way that people could get 700 00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,359 Speaker 1: to it and absorb it and hopefully understand what am 701 00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: I looking for and if I do have this person 702 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 1: that's the killer, should I look at bank robbers? Should 703 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,240 Speaker 1: I look at burglaries? Should I look at rapes? 704 00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 3: Yes, because nobody starts, nobody debuts as a murderer necessarily. 705 00:36:47,480 --> 00:36:50,840 Speaker 3: I mean, it's always an escalation, right. And one of 706 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 3: the things I wanted to mention is that the other 707 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:56,360 Speaker 3: thing that is fascinating about these tapes is not just keys, 708 00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,719 Speaker 3: but what you hear is you know, I think we 709 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 3: even at beginning about you, Cheryl, so you've seen everything, right, 710 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 3: Police officers, detectives there was like we've seen everything. They 711 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,120 Speaker 3: haven't seen everything, and what they saw in Keys was 712 00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:12,920 Speaker 3: something they had never seen before. And Joline Goden, the 713 00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:16,279 Speaker 3: FBI agent who we talked to, she talked about, you know, 714 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 3: there's a point when they were all sitting in that 715 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,920 Speaker 3: room and they were like, this is way more than 716 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 3: a man who abducted a girl from a coffee shop 717 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:31,400 Speaker 3: and killed her. This is an unprecedented, without question, unique 718 00:37:31,440 --> 00:37:34,879 Speaker 3: scenario that none of us will ever see again. And 719 00:37:35,080 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 3: there was a realization point for all of them of 720 00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:43,960 Speaker 3: seeing clearly that the Samantha Conic abduction was literally the 721 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,319 Speaker 3: tip of the iceberg and everything else underneath the water. 722 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 2: It just kept going. And from a training and investigative standpoint, Cheryl, 723 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:53,920 Speaker 2: it's interesting to watch those tapes because you know, there 724 00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:58,000 Speaker 2: are playbooks for interrogation rooms, there are playbooks for certain 725 00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 2: types of suspects, right, and they have to kind of 726 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,560 Speaker 2: make it up as they went, as they learn more 727 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:04,920 Speaker 2: about him, because a lot of the normal stuff didn't 728 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 2: apply to him, and you know, investigators who are in 729 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 2: the room with him, there's a live audio feed to 730 00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 2: people you know in the next room and out to 731 00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:16,680 Speaker 2: the bau at Quantico, right. You know, everyone's trying to 732 00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:20,040 Speaker 2: figure out how to crack this guy. And Keys knew 733 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:22,440 Speaker 2: it too, So he was playing the game. He was 734 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 2: playing a game with them, and you know, the investigators 735 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:27,600 Speaker 2: we talked to will use that term as well. It 736 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:29,719 Speaker 2: was a game that he was playing and at a 737 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 2: certain point they will say like they lost control unintentionally, right, 738 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 2: And it is a struggle to seize it back, and 739 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 2: some are unconvinced that they ever did. Listening to those tapes, 740 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:45,719 Speaker 2: understanding how he operated just from an interrogagent perspective, you know, 741 00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:51,040 Speaker 2: you could see disagreements and it's great improvisational police work. Right. 742 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:52,959 Speaker 2: They did get a lot out of him. They didn't 743 00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,320 Speaker 2: get everything, but they did get a lot. If I 744 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,040 Speaker 2: mean investigators are listening to this. If you look at Keys, 745 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 2: you know he was also a person patterns, right. You know, 746 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:04,000 Speaker 2: he killed the way he killed, and he planned his 747 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 2: crimes the way he planned his crimes. But after he 748 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,040 Speaker 2: committed murder, he had a pattern of sort of losing 749 00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,279 Speaker 2: control and going wild a little bit, right. You know, 750 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,160 Speaker 2: it is easy to correlate a murder with all of 751 00:39:16,200 --> 00:39:18,880 Speaker 2: a sudden a bank robbery and then a narson right afterwards. Right, 752 00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,919 Speaker 2: Like he had to It was almost like a doom 753 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:23,799 Speaker 2: quake in a way. Right, it was something he had 754 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:25,759 Speaker 2: to just let out and kept coming after the murder. Right, 755 00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:28,000 Speaker 2: he had to keep doing these things until he ran 756 00:39:28,040 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 2: out of gas. There are patterns that extend beyond murder. 757 00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: Do either one of you just have a final word? 758 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,400 Speaker 1: Anything you want to be sure you said. 759 00:39:36,360 --> 00:39:38,239 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, I mean just to talk a little bit 760 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 2: more about the show and what we're going for as 761 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 2: you listen. So our first seven episodes are dedicated to 762 00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 2: Israel Keys and sort of trying to figure out how 763 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 2: far he went, and the concept of deviant is we 764 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:53,600 Speaker 2: only want to tell a story for as long as 765 00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:56,359 Speaker 2: it is good. And you know, a lot of times 766 00:39:56,360 --> 00:39:59,839 Speaker 2: in the podcast industry, the business of it is such 767 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 2: that you know you're expected to do eight to ten 768 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 2: episodes for your season, and then you go off and 769 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,160 Speaker 2: you spend a year and you do your next story, 770 00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:09,400 Speaker 2: and you come back then and hopefully you come back 771 00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,160 Speaker 2: and you do another season on another story. And then 772 00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 2: there's the other side of sort of the true crime 773 00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,840 Speaker 2: and podcast genre, where it's you know, two people cracking 774 00:40:17,960 --> 00:40:20,480 Speaker 2: Mike and talking, which is much easier to sustain in 775 00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:22,719 Speaker 2: the long term. Nothing wrong with it, just different. We're 776 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:25,560 Speaker 2: trying to combine the two. So for our first seven episodes, 777 00:40:25,560 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 2: we're talking about Israel Keys, and then when we're done 778 00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,520 Speaker 2: with that, maybe it'll go eight, depends how our Chase 779 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,480 Speaker 2: goes or die. I hope it doesn't go die, but 780 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,279 Speaker 2: we're going to move on to another story, and that 781 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,640 Speaker 2: we'll tell that story over how many episodes it's good 782 00:40:38,640 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 2: for it. 783 00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think that two things Dan and I 784 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,440 Speaker 3: are you know, we mentioned at the top, we're approaching 785 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 3: this thing with a journalistic prism. That's what we do, 786 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,120 Speaker 3: that's what we know. So that's the way we're going 787 00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 3: about this. It's not we're going to We're not going 788 00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 3: to be in the ramp and speculation game about things. 789 00:40:54,880 --> 00:40:56,919 Speaker 3: The second thing I wanted to mention is that we've 790 00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 3: talked a ton about Israel Keys and rightfully so. But 791 00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:03,040 Speaker 3: I think it's imperative that we remind people that Bill 792 00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:06,520 Speaker 3: and the Rain Courier were victims of his and they 793 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:09,680 Speaker 3: were a married couple that lived in Essex, Vermont. Bill 794 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,760 Speaker 3: was a vettech, the rain worked in the financial services industry. 795 00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,480 Speaker 3: And his other victim that the other victims we know 796 00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,480 Speaker 3: were Samantha Koenig, who is a young team an eighteen 797 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,399 Speaker 3: year old girl in Anchorage, Alaska, had her whole life 798 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:24,240 Speaker 3: in front of her, wanted to work with animals, loved animals, 799 00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,680 Speaker 3: wanted to go into the Navy. And then his other 800 00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 3: victim that we know is Deborah Feldman, who was a 801 00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:31,360 Speaker 3: woman in New York, New Jersey area, and so I 802 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:33,880 Speaker 3: just want I just we talk a lot about Israel Keys, 803 00:41:33,920 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 3: but I want to be clear that there are victims 804 00:41:36,400 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 3: here that need to be mentioned. 805 00:41:37,520 --> 00:41:39,920 Speaker 2: To the FBI tells us, and we say this at 806 00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 2: the top of the show too. Even though he's been 807 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,200 Speaker 2: dead for twelve years now, this is still an active 808 00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:48,239 Speaker 2: and ongoing investigation. The FBI wants tips if this is 809 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,279 Speaker 2: ringing a bell for anyone, if anything that they hear says, 810 00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:53,880 Speaker 2: oh yeah, this reminds me of this or that or 811 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 2: the other, like I think when it comes to Israel Keys, 812 00:41:57,120 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 2: no tip is too small, right, They're looking. The FBI 813 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 2: still wants to find his victims, y'all. 814 00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:05,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to end Zone seven the way that I 815 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:10,040 Speaker 1: always do with a quote. Some people are wired for good, 816 00:42:11,080 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: some people are wired for bad, and some people are 817 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: wired to be Deviant the Deviant Podcast. I'm Cheryl McCollum, 818 00:42:21,560 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: and this is Zone seven.