WEBVTT - Batman: The Caped Crusader (Episodes 5-10) with Marc Bernardin 0:00:01.560 --> 0:00:03.080 Warning warning. 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:07.120 Today's episode contains spoilers for Batman, The Cape Crusader and 0:00:07.720 --> 0:00:29.480 The Crow and oh Spooky Denizens of x ray Vision. 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.600 My name is Rosie Knight, and welcome back to x 0:00:32.640 --> 0:00:35.360 ray Vision, the podcast where we dive deep into your 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.960 favorite shows, movies, comics and pop culture. Coming to you 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:42.239 as always from iHeart Podcast, where we'll be bringing you 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:46.120 two new episodes a week every Tuesday and Thursday, and 0:00:46.159 --> 0:00:49.479 sometimes you even get extra episodes. Aren't you lucky? But 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.320 let's not waste any time. Jason is currently on top 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:54.640 of the Gotham Police Department lighting up the back signal, 0:00:54.800 --> 0:00:56.960 and that means it's time to jump into the second 0:00:56.960 --> 0:01:01.360 half of Batman Cape Crusader. First, we're covering episode five, 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:04.600 then hopping into the Batmobile to chat with Mark bernardin 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.960 writer for episode six, Night Ride, and what an episode 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.840 that was. And then we dive into the Batcave to 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:15.880 discuss episodes seven to ten. Finally we watched The Crow 0:01:16.480 --> 0:01:19.160 and we have thoughts. They are not the same thoughts, 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:23.160 they are divisive thoughts. But first, in the airlock, we're 0:01:23.160 --> 0:01:26.160 recapping episodes five to ten of The Cape Crusader with 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.720 the help of Mark bernardin. 0:01:32.360 --> 0:01:34.520 And now we're stepping out of the airlock to talk 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:42.360 about episodes five through ten of Batman Caped Crusader, The excellent, 0:01:42.480 --> 0:01:47.280 the truly excellent Batman shockingly good. Episode five. Let's start 0:01:47.280 --> 0:01:52.440 here with the of the debut of Harley Quinn in 0:01:52.600 --> 0:02:00.360 the Caped Crusader universe. I loved this episode. Mea loved 0:02:00.360 --> 0:02:03.520 the thing changed. I love the tweaks they made to 0:02:03.600 --> 0:02:08.120 her origin story and just awesome. What did you make 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:08.440 of it? 0:02:08.880 --> 0:02:09.120 Yeah? 0:02:09.160 --> 0:02:09.640 I love it. 0:02:09.720 --> 0:02:12.520 The stress of her regard. Written by Haley Gross, directed 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:16.799 by Matt Peters, This is maybe my favorite episode. Now, 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:18.799 I don't know, I do think that you know, we're 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:22.919 gonna have Mark bernardin here talking about night Ride, which 0:02:22.960 --> 0:02:25.360 I do think is up there with fantastic episodes. But 0:02:25.400 --> 0:02:28.320 you know what, I love this representation of Harley. I 0:02:28.360 --> 0:02:31.399 love how cute see she is when she's doctor quins out. 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.919 I love that she is in this kind of romantic 0:02:35.080 --> 0:02:39.000 entanglement trying to date Rename and Montoya, which is really funny, 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:42.919 the idea of like the question and Harlequin dating. I 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:48.520 also like the version of Harlequin here, who has you 0:02:48.560 --> 0:02:54.040 know gone rogue had her breaking point moment without the Joker. 0:02:54.120 --> 0:02:58.160 Yeah, there's an agency there, there's Yeah, it's she wasn't 0:02:58.440 --> 0:03:04.440 corrupted in this mm hm. You know, honestly a really 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:10.320 terrible and toxic way. She is the person in the 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.680 driver's seat behind her own personal mania and turned to 0:03:13.720 --> 0:03:16.239 the dark side. And I found it very, very compelling. 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:22.240 And I found the connection between the alter ego and 0:03:22.280 --> 0:03:26.080 the ego Doctor Quinzel and Harley Quinn to be that 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.320 much more engrossing. 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:32.480 Because and also she gets to have an alter ego, 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:37.160 Whereas when harle and Quinzel becomes Harley Quinn in you know, 0:03:37.280 --> 0:03:40.400 whether it's Batman animated series or whether it's you know, 0:03:40.440 --> 0:03:43.840 the comic books, that becomes all of her. Whereas here 0:03:43.880 --> 0:03:48.960 we do get that duality and that cheery, funny, curvey, hilarious, 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.200 cheeky Harley is there in Harleen, but she's far more 0:03:53.320 --> 0:03:56.480 dark and kind of deranged as Harley Quinn. And what 0:03:56.560 --> 0:04:00.680 I really like, I think any great Batman villain is 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:02.080 like a mirror for Batman. 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:02.760 I've written a. 0:04:02.720 --> 0:04:05.600 Lot about how in Batman Returns, Like one of my 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:09.600 favorite things is like, you know, the Penguin is essentially 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:12.960 like what if Batman's family didn't love him. Like he's rich, 0:04:13.000 --> 0:04:15.240 he's a son of Gotham, but he doesn't have any 0:04:15.240 --> 0:04:17.760 love for his parents. His parents abandoned him. He grew 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:20.840 up without the trappings of what Batman has. And I 0:04:20.880 --> 0:04:25.000 really like here that Harley Quinn's journey is essentially like 0:04:26.000 --> 0:04:28.040 she does the same thing as Batman. She's trying to 0:04:28.040 --> 0:04:29.400 fix Gotham. 0:04:29.240 --> 0:04:32.120 But she's doing it in this it's a lot worse way, 0:04:32.240 --> 0:04:36.200 like in this completely deranged, like cruel way, and it's 0:04:36.240 --> 0:04:39.400 almost like Gotham broke her the way Gotham broke Batman 0:04:39.480 --> 0:04:40.640 and made him who he is. 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:43.720 We get to see that here with Harlene and this 0:04:43.800 --> 0:04:47.080 kind of awful kind of torture that she's putting these 0:04:47.160 --> 0:04:49.680 villains through. And as again, just as you know, this 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:50.760 is the kind of stuff we love. 0:04:51.040 --> 0:04:52.240 I also love that they. 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:56.920 Use this episode as a way to showcase all these 0:04:56.960 --> 0:05:00.040 really outrageous old Batman villains that you would see in 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:03.880 like sixty six Batman, like you know, King Tut and 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:05.920 stuff like that that you wouldn't usually get to see. 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:08.080 So yeah, I just I think this is like such 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.000 a great example of what this show does well. 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:14.040 Next up, Night Ride written by Mark Bernardon, directed by 0:05:14.160 --> 0:05:17.719 Christopher Berkeley, and let's just go to our interview with 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:20.359 the writer of this episode, Mark Bernardon. 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.760 Mark Bernardin is a screenwriter whose work has appeared in Vox, Macina, 0:05:27.120 --> 0:05:29.880 Castle Rock, and Masters of the Universe, among them. 0:05:29.880 --> 0:05:30.279 Any More. 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.400 He's here today to talk about Batman, the Cape Crusader, 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:36.440 and if we're very nice, he might even tease a 0:05:36.480 --> 0:05:40.120 little bit about Eyes of Wakanda, the new Disney animated series. 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:43.040 Is coming soon. But we'll see. We'll start with Batman. 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:43.960 We'll start with Batman. 0:05:45.000 --> 0:05:49.719 Hell, I'm good, I will tell you everything about Eyes 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:54.000 of Wakanda. 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:51.839 I will tell you he. 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:56.200 Like, what's what's Disney gonna do? 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:02.200 Like, what's Marvel good? That they're really cash, They're very chill. 0:06:03.839 --> 0:06:07.160 Yeah, it's fine. It's not coming out for another year 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:07.400 or so. 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.039 Just tell everybody, get people excited. 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:11.359 What's the worst that could happen? 0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:17.720 Mark, what's your origin story with Batman? 0:06:18.880 --> 0:06:23.039 My origin story with Batman begins, as I imagine many 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:26.919 old men's stories begin with the sixty six Batman with 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:29.279 Adam West, the first time I've ever seen the character. 0:06:29.560 --> 0:06:32.880 You know, and and depending on your perspective, that is 0:06:32.920 --> 0:06:35.520 either the best way to meet Batman or the worst 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:38.560 way to be Batman. I choose to believe it's the 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:43.160 best way because it's a kids show for kids, and 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:46.960 I was a kid, and it was bright and colorful 0:06:47.000 --> 0:06:50.480 and it moved and you know, And I've read those 0:06:50.520 --> 0:06:54.080 sort of reappreciations of Adam West as of late, like 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:56.280 I think when he just when he passed, even before then, 0:06:57.279 --> 0:06:59.880 the level of commitment that he had to that bit 0:07:00.760 --> 0:07:05.240 is astonishing. Like he never breaks. He is always just 0:07:05.440 --> 0:07:08.719 right down the middle. He is always the fixed point 0:07:08.760 --> 0:07:12.240 in space and time around which the mania of Batman 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:14.960 can revolve. And like that is not easy to do, 0:07:15.080 --> 0:07:17.520 to be a straight man with, you know, and do 0:07:17.680 --> 0:07:22.000 the batusi straight man is so hard to pull off, 0:07:22.840 --> 0:07:26.080 but he sticks the landing every time. And so like 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:28.400 it was that when I was a kid, and then 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:33.200 later it slowly came back around to the Dark Knight 0:07:33.280 --> 0:07:36.560 returns to Frank Miller's book, you know, and Frank it 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:39.440 was Frank Miller really like that in Batman Year one, yeah, 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:43.040 or my two sort of the twin poles of Batman 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:45.720 for me, And then just became a fan and then 0:07:45.840 --> 0:07:48.680 just started buying the books every month, and then you know, 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.560 like never went that far back but kept going forward. 0:07:52.120 --> 0:07:55.440 And then Batman the animated series happened, which I think 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.640 blew everybody's minds wide open, like, wait, this is what 0:07:59.280 --> 0:08:01.200 I just saw this Burton movie and I thought that 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:05.080 was cool, But what is this now? And I think 0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.960 that that was a huge paradigm shift in lots of 0:08:07.960 --> 0:08:11.320 people's appreciation for this character in a real way. 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:12.360 Yeah. 0:08:12.440 --> 0:08:16.720 So then you know, jumping forward to Cape Crusader, was 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:19.440 it Ed Brubaker who brought you onto the project? 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.560 Yeah, Like I'd known Ed for a while through comic 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.120 book circles and comic book writing circles, and he'd been 0:08:27.160 --> 0:08:29.960 on the podcast that I do with Kevin Smith Fatman 0:08:30.040 --> 0:08:32.319 Beyond once or twice, and every now and again we 0:08:32.360 --> 0:08:35.040 would text each other and just commiserate about TV writing 0:08:35.120 --> 0:08:37.679 and sort of and Swan he just and he just 0:08:37.760 --> 0:08:39.440 like popped up on the text. He was like, hey, man, 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.520 do you want to write an episode of Batman? Does 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:43.560 it say less? Say less? 0:08:43.800 --> 0:08:44.360 Like that's it. 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.720 I'm in all right, The answer is yes, regardless of 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.040 what the rest of the information is, I will happily 0:08:51.040 --> 0:08:52.880 write an episode of Batman. He was like, well, you know, 0:08:53.280 --> 0:08:55.400 we had a writer's room, and the writer's rooms kind 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.680 of disbanded, but we have these episodes and like Wreckers 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.120 writing one, and like I'm writing one of course, and 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.840 Bruce's and we'd love for you to come aboard and 0:09:03.960 --> 0:09:09.240 take one on. And I said yes, because again, you know, 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.760 if somebody asked you if you're a god ray, you 0:09:11.760 --> 0:09:15.679 say yes. My default answer to somebody offering me a thing. 0:09:16.360 --> 0:09:19.880 And it was a phenomenal experience in that I've never 0:09:19.880 --> 0:09:23.439 written Batman before. You know, I've been working in comics 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.079 for almost fifteen years twenty years at that point, and 0:09:26.120 --> 0:09:28.440 never gotten a chance to swing at Batman. But to 0:09:28.480 --> 0:09:31.719 get to write Bruce Tim's Batman, you know, to get 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.800 to write Brue Baker's Batman, to get to dig under 0:09:34.920 --> 0:09:38.240 the hood of that character and that world and find 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.400 the lines between. And it was always weird, even in Batman. 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.400 The animals here is right, he's got a car and 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:49.480 a cell phone, but there's dirigibles and you know, like 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.680 where are we? When are we? This weird future noir thing, 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:55.480 and like this was even more so. It's like this 0:09:55.600 --> 0:09:57.600 is definitely in like thirties and forties, you know, but 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.640 again he's got a batmobile and again like he doesn't 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:02.320 have a computer. He has to go to the library 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:05.160 to do research, but he's still like all of the 0:10:05.200 --> 0:10:08.160 weirdness of that world took just a little bit of 0:10:08.200 --> 0:10:12.120 time to calibrate too. But I mean, nobody knows Batman 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.600 like Bruce Tim knows Batman, and so to get notes 0:10:14.600 --> 0:10:19.280 from Bruce Tim on Batman was the height of surreality. Yeah, 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.080 it really was. It was just it was, it was, 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:23.040 you know, kid nerd stuff. 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:28.440 Let's talk about your episode, the Wonderful night Ride, episode 0:10:28.480 --> 0:10:35.400 six in the first season. Wonderful, wonderfully spooky episode with 0:10:35.440 --> 0:10:38.640 a great antagonist who I love that his bit is 0:10:38.760 --> 0:10:43.199 just he hates poor people and that endures. How'd you 0:10:43.280 --> 0:10:44.320 end up with this episode? 0:10:46.240 --> 0:10:48.439 You know, I think it was I'm not going to 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:50.800 say it was like random luck of the draw, but 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:55.719 it was. I think they were specifically looking for somebody 0:10:56.400 --> 0:11:00.520 of color to handle this episode because I think getting 0:11:00.679 --> 0:11:03.079 the Lucius Fox stuff right, getting the pop and midnight 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:06.520 stuff right, getting the kind of class warfare stuff right. 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:09.840 They very much, you know, did not want it to 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:13.080 be an episode about race, but it they were very 0:11:13.160 --> 0:11:15.680 much like, no, it's an episode about class, which in 0:11:15.720 --> 0:11:19.199 a big city also functions like an episode about race, 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:23.320 because that just tends to be the way that breaks down. 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:26.120 And so it was you know, figuring out, all right, 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.240 how supernatural is he? Like is he a llegit ghost? 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:31.120 Is he a guy pretending to be a ghost, Like 0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.280 how are we hiding the ball on the truth of it? 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:38.520 You know, and just being in Batman's pov like he's 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:41.760 investigating this thing. The audience should believe what Batman believes, 0:11:42.400 --> 0:11:45.160 you know. And then when Batman rounds that corner into 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:48.000 like wait a minute, like I punched him and he 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:50.560 wasn't there and my hand is cold, and this is 0:11:50.600 --> 0:11:52.240 not just a guy in a costume. This is not 0:11:52.320 --> 0:11:57.079 special effects. This is real, you know, like just figuring 0:11:57.080 --> 0:12:00.000 out how to round that story out in the season 0:12:00.120 --> 0:12:01.640 in that has no other. 0:12:01.440 --> 0:12:05.160 Supervis Yeah, yeah, very notable, Like how. 0:12:05.000 --> 0:12:08.160 To make that all play? And I think it was 0:12:08.200 --> 0:12:10.960 it was rooting it in Gotham story, in Gotham history. 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:13.880 It was rooting it in sort of you know, Lucius's 0:12:13.960 --> 0:12:17.600 perspective on it, you know, and also having conversations about 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:19.880 what do you do with all of your money? Bruce? 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:23.480 Do you want to be involved in this charity thing. 0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.600 Do you want to like, what is what is the 0:12:25.640 --> 0:12:28.200 responsibility of the hyper rich in a city like this? 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:34.200 And to whom are you responsible? And that getting to 0:12:34.240 --> 0:12:36.400 be the kind of spine of that story. You know, 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:38.480 I'm not going to say it wrote quickly, because they 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.800 never write quickly, but at least I kind of I 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:43.920 knew kind of what it was. Yeah, and it got 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.480 to mostly be a standalone, you know, other than some 0:12:46.559 --> 0:12:49.480 of the like Harvey Dent, you know, running for office 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:52.959 stuff and the ruper Thorn stuff like the little connective 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.040 tissue to the rest of the season. But otherwise it's 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:57.520 just it's an episode of The X Files where you know, 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.280 Bruce Wayne is trying to figure out what goes bump 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:00.679 in the night. 0:13:01.960 --> 0:13:05.559 And you, I mean, you mentioned that you've written comics, 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.760 you've worked in animation before, but on a project like 0:13:08.840 --> 0:13:13.520 this where you are working with masters like Bruce Tim 0:13:13.600 --> 0:13:16.240 and what was it like to write the episode and 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:18.760 then start to see the art come back, get to 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.600 see the finished animation from this unbelievable team, Like what 0:13:22.679 --> 0:13:23.520 was that experience? 0:13:23.640 --> 0:13:28.160 Like, I mean, the when they started showing me somebody 0:13:28.160 --> 0:13:32.160 even the character design work, like writing is always in 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:34.199 a bit of a vacuum, yeah, where you're just like, 0:13:34.240 --> 0:13:36.520 I'm putting these words on a page and hopefully they 0:13:36.559 --> 0:13:40.520 will become a thing that functions as drama. And so 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:44.559 it's always abstract until it isn't, you know. And it's 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:46.800 very much like the process with comics, where it's like 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:48.360 I wrote this thing, and I think, and then somebody 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:51.960 starts drawing it, and like the minute you begin to 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.360 get you know, those finished pages in even pencils, even 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:57.160 inks like it suddenly it's real in a way that 0:13:57.200 --> 0:14:00.520 it wasn't, you know, getting character design stuff, you know, 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:03.160 to look at animatics, getting to like all of it 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.679 just begins to claw its way into reality and leaves 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:09.040 and bounds because animation takes forever to do so it 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.400 can be months between like getting in any information to like, 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.640 oh there it is. Oh that's that's cool. Oh they 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:20.120 kept that, Like that's always fun. But the craziest part 0:14:20.160 --> 0:14:23.120 of it was that And I don't know if this 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:25.160 is telling tales out of school or not, but when 0:14:25.160 --> 0:14:28.840 Bruce Tim gives notes, he's he has your script, he's 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.240 printed it out, he's writing his notes in a red 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:35.320 magic marker. And then he's drawing things in the margins. 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.280 It's like this scene should look like this, and he'll 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:41.400 draw like the train sequence, you know, or at least 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:43.080 you're like, here's what the inside of the train should 0:14:43.080 --> 0:14:45.040 look like, Here's what the sort of courtroom scene should 0:14:45.040 --> 0:14:47.200 look like, here's what this thing should be and just 0:14:47.240 --> 0:14:50.600 to have like Bruce tim drawings in the margins was 0:14:50.640 --> 0:14:55.040 the like that was the giddiest part. Was like he 0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:59.160 actually read it and it was it moved him to 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:03.560 draw thing. Yeah, that's that's Banana's I still am trying 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:05.720 to get in to give me the actual physical hard 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:10.160 copy of those notes. I bet he refuses to come on, 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:13.280 come on, you know what I want. I'm not gonna 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:15.800 sell an eBay, like, I just want to have it just. 0:15:15.760 --> 0:15:19.400 In my house. We only have the highest quality guests 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:20.440 on this show. 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:23.080 So help us support having those guests that we definitely 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:23.720 don't pay for. 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:42.240 Actually, by listening to these messages, we're back. 0:15:42.600 --> 0:15:45.360 The thing I love about this episode is, and you 0:15:45.400 --> 0:15:50.000 mentioned it being like a standalone is Bruce gets challenged 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:52.880 in a way that kind of doesn't really happen in 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:55.840 the rest of the series. Both on to your point, 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:57.720 what he's doing with his money, and then the fact 0:15:57.840 --> 0:16:02.560 that his very can perception of what reality is is 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:05.240 directly challenged in this episode. How did you balance like 0:16:05.280 --> 0:16:08.640 all that stuff, because you know, of course Bruce and 0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:11.480 Batman are such grounded characters, and now all of a 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.360 sudden he's coming up against something that completely upends his 0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:17.360 idea of what the world is. 0:16:17.480 --> 0:16:21.800 Like the way they described Bruce and Batman to me 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:27.760 was a bit like mister Spock, you know, like his 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:33.200 his level of oddness, his level of like relying on logic, 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:36.680 Like he wasn't quite on the spectrum, but he was 0:16:36.800 --> 0:16:41.080 definitely a little to the left of typical, you know, 0:16:41.480 --> 0:16:44.960 definitely neurodiversion in some way. And so the idea that, 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:52.040 like mister Spock, when confronted with the impossible, still begins 0:16:52.080 --> 0:16:54.680 to absorb it and push through it and just get 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:58.280 the job done. And so like, this was never a 0:16:58.280 --> 0:17:02.840 thing that was going to alter Bruce's or Batman's worldview. 0:17:03.280 --> 0:17:08.120 This was just a this is a weird blip, This 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.320 is not the job. Like, I don't have to investigate 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:12.840 how are there suddenly ghosts in the world. I just 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:16.920 need to know what how to solve this particular issue. 0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.479 So it was never like we're going to shake him 0:17:19.480 --> 0:17:23.080 to his core with the existence of you know, paranormal. 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.720 It was more he will take this information on board 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.280 processes and use it to solve the problem in hand, 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:32.720 which made it an easier dramatic problem to solve because 0:17:32.760 --> 0:17:35.240 if I suddenly have to have a Batman who's like, 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:40.439 oh my god, everybody's dead. There's ghosts everywhere, like can 0:17:40.520 --> 0:17:42.159 I find my parents or my parents? 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:43.200 Oh my god? 0:17:45.160 --> 0:17:47.280 Like that is a huge can of worms that nobody 0:17:47.280 --> 0:17:50.200 wants to open. So yeah, keep him on rails, keep 0:17:50.240 --> 0:17:50.840 him on task. 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.080 Yeah, I think you did a great job with that. 0:17:53.160 --> 0:17:55.200 I think a lot about this episode. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.680 When the Gentleman goes goes through the wall and then 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.960 Batman's like grasping at the bits left behind. 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:03.040 What is this? 0:18:03.200 --> 0:18:03.399 You know? 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:05.000 I think I think you really did that. 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:09.399 So when you're approaching something like this right where the 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:13.639 the KP Crusoder is a totally new kind of vision 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:15.919 for Gotham, but you're taking on a character like the 0:18:16.000 --> 0:18:19.320 Gentleman Ghost who's from like the four E's from a 0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:23.600 flash comic Flash Aea, Joe Cuba, Robert Canada, Like these 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.600 are big things. Did you go back and look at 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:27.360 those things, or are you just like this is a 0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:29.760 new space, Like what can I do with this character? 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:34.520 It was very much like a new version of an 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:37.840 old character, and most of what had been part of 0:18:37.880 --> 0:18:42.639 that initial creation didn't apply anymore. Yeah, you know, so 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:44.920 it was it was very much like, here's a new guy. 0:18:44.960 --> 0:18:48.200 Here's what he wants, you know, here's the obstacle to 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:50.359 get in what he wants, you know, Like the for 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.720 the longest time, it was what does he need money for? 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:54.000 Yeah, he's a ghost. 0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:57.560 He's a ghost. He can't actually carry it with him, Like, 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:00.240 so what does he need this money for? And and 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.479 so figuring out like what his big issues were, what 0:19:03.600 --> 0:19:06.840 was his conflict, what was what was the thing driving him? 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.320 And it was just like Gotham has turned into a sesspool, 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.640 Like why all of these people who shouldn't be here, 0:19:12.960 --> 0:19:14.800 you know, we're giving them too much that we were 0:19:14.840 --> 0:19:17.679 handing out too many things, like I just need to 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:19.960 find a way to balance the scales in favor of 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:27.399 the aristocracy, and like that became the overriding character want 0:19:28.040 --> 0:19:31.040 and the only stuff that maintained with his backstory was 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.840 the stuff that fed into that, you know, So like 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:36.280 all right, so he's gonna be, you know, part of 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:39.400 the Gotham like five founding families or whatever. But like 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:43.159 the one that nobody liked, the one who was like 0:19:43.280 --> 0:19:45.560 they all got together like the Founder's club, and he 0:19:45.600 --> 0:19:48.200 was the one who sat in the corner. Yeah, it's 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:51.640 like settle down, bro, Like, not about that life anymore. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:52.680 It's the new world. Yeah. 0:19:52.720 --> 0:19:54.719 Also, like, if you're getting all this money, guess how 0:19:54.760 --> 0:19:57.240 you could make people's lives bad. Just give them the money, 0:19:57.359 --> 0:19:59.760 all the poor people often that would actually help, which 0:19:59.760 --> 0:20:02.240 I think I think is a great that's a really great 0:20:02.440 --> 0:20:05.560 kind of mirror to the Batman question that we all 0:20:05.600 --> 0:20:07.280 always have, Yeah. 0:20:07.000 --> 0:20:08.840 That we all always have, which is, hey man, you 0:20:08.840 --> 0:20:13.520 know what Gotham really needs infrastructure, you know, like great schools, 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.240 you know, maybe after school programs, you know what. It 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:18.440 doesn't really need punching crime in the face. 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:21.240 That's for you, that's what you need. 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.360 Yeah, Like you do that because you just like it. 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:27.120 It's not actually helping Gotham very much, you know, which 0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:28.680 is what Alfred says in the movies, which is like 0:20:28.720 --> 0:20:30.600 it's an arms race, Like you know, you show up 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:32.440 and suddenly there's a guy in a mask and then 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:38.120 it invites conflict. It's a vision speech right from Infinity War. 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:41.760 It's like power in fights. Conflict invites challenge, creates chaos. 0:20:42.000 --> 0:20:44.159 It's like, Man, if you just stay Bruce, Wayne and 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:47.439 invested in Gotham, this probably would be a better place. 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:52.119 Tell us about breaking this story. How much of the 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.120 arc of the season was in place when you came 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:55.880 to the project. 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.800 I think they knew. They knew very much what the 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:02.840 you know, they knew where we're starting, they knew where 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.240 it was ending. You know, they knew all of the episodes. 0:21:05.320 --> 0:21:08.119 They wanted to tell that story. And so when I 0:21:08.200 --> 0:21:10.639 signed on, like they sent me about a page a 0:21:10.680 --> 0:21:14.000 page and a half of like here's kind of what 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:16.520 this episode is. It didn't have all of the beats 0:21:16.560 --> 0:21:18.359 worked out, or didn't have all of the logic stuff, 0:21:18.359 --> 0:21:19.800 Like again we had to figure out what does he 0:21:19.840 --> 0:21:22.400 want with money? Was not a problem that had been 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.320 solved in the writer's room. But and then they told 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:27.040 me like, yeah, you're gonna have Pop a Midnight Like 0:21:27.200 --> 0:21:30.040 you know, it's going on his clue path to solving it. 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:32.360 We can incorporate this character. I was like, we're doing 0:21:32.359 --> 0:21:37.399 popa Midnight? Bat man like, Okay, all right, I see you. 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:40.680 Let's let's go, you know, And so then it became 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:44.200