Speaker 1: Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
Speaker 1: and speaker.
Speaker 2: And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician,
Speaker 2: writer and course creator. We are two working parents who
Speaker 2: love our careers and our families.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
Speaker 1: how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
Speaker 1: From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
Speaker 1: We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1: Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
Speaker 1: episode is airing in late July of twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1: We're going to be talking all things decluttering. This is
Speaker 1: a decluttering blitz of an episode. We happen to know
Speaker 1: that decluttering is a big topic. Much of my Instagram
Speaker 1: feed is about people declutter. We see the videos about it,
Speaker 1: lots of articles in magazines. And it makes sense because
Speaker 1: having an uncluttered house makes it more functional. I mean,
Speaker 1: people like to have things where they're supposed to be.
Speaker 1: There is much joy in opening a drawer and finding
Speaker 1: your scissors exactly where the scissors are supposed to be,
Speaker 1: and not surrounded by a million other things that are
Speaker 1: not supposed to be there. So, Sarah, you had set
Speaker 1: a goal to declutter your house for many years.
Speaker 2: Right, Yes, I different variations of that goal, Like sometimes
Speaker 2: I wanted to do it in a specific way using
Speaker 2: the organized through sixty five method, which we'll talk about
Speaker 2: in this episode. Other times I just had a general
Speaker 2: goal of decluttering different areas.
Speaker 1: And finally, in.
Speaker 2: Twenty twenty six, I said I would like to declutter,
Speaker 2: but I am going to hire a professional to help
Speaker 2: me do so because I failed this goal too many
Speaker 2: other times. And as someone who does talk about what
Speaker 2: to do when you hit roadblocks with goals, I knew
Speaker 2: that just setting it again was probably not going to
Speaker 2: be the answer. Yeah, So there we were at the
Speaker 2: start of twenty twenty six.
Speaker 1: Yeah, set it again and we'll talk about that. But
Speaker 1: real quick, we want to just do a quick life
Speaker 1: recap because we haven't talked that much in the podcast.
Speaker 1: We record quite a bit ahead of time. Like you
Speaker 1: thought you would be in somewhere else right now in
Speaker 1: late July.
Speaker 2: Correct Sarah, Yes, as this is airing, I should have
Speaker 2: been like waking up for my last day in Maui
Speaker 2: and headed to Kawai for this trip. You guys, you
Speaker 2: listeners have heard about a bunch because it has played
Speaker 2: an anticipatory role in my life for probably a year now.
Speaker 1: I literally started.
Speaker 2: Booking the hotels over a year ago.
Speaker 1: In fact, the trip even got moved.
Speaker 2: If you were in a student listener, you may know
Speaker 2: we were going to go in early June and then
Speaker 2: moved it to mid July because of my daughter's geometry class.
Speaker 2: But I was so proud that I was able to
Speaker 2: move it and make it work. The irony is that
Speaker 2: if we had gone in June, we would have gone
Speaker 2: on the trip, yep. But we did not go in June,
Speaker 2: and Annabel is acing jometry, So for what it's worth,
Speaker 2: there was a good reason for moving the trip. However,
Speaker 2: in early July, or maybe it was the end of June,
Speaker 2: obviously end of the end of June, my husband went
Speaker 2: to a basketball game and I got a phone call
Speaker 2: and he said.
Speaker 1: I broke my leg. I'm so sorry.
Speaker 2: And this wasn't even the first time I've been through
Speaker 2: that exact phone call, which.
Speaker 1: Is pretty crazy.
Speaker 2: Literally had like that same phone call fourteen years ago
Speaker 2: when he broke his other leg skiing, But this break
Speaker 2: actually turned out to be worse it involved the joint.
Speaker 2: It was shattering of multiple bones that doctors said it
Speaker 2: looked much more like a motorcycle accident than a basketball injury.
Speaker 2: And thankfully he's okay. He underwent surgery, he has slowly recovered.
Speaker 2: Probably by the time this airs, he will be much
Speaker 2: more recovered. Right now, he's in the kind of early
Speaker 2: phases to a lot of pain. Will not be weight
Speaker 2: bearing until August. And we had to obviously change everything
Speaker 2: about our summer that we had envisioned and that I
Speaker 2: had spent a lot of time thinking about. So that
Speaker 2: included our trip and included a lot of processing time.
Speaker 2: He's obviously out of work. I didn't have to take
Speaker 2: off too much work. I mean, I've been like helping him,
Speaker 2: but ar Nanny has been helping him when I'm not there,
Speaker 2: and so at least that's been pretty okay. And at
Speaker 2: this point and certainly by the time this errs, I mean,
Speaker 2: I'm it is what it is like.
Speaker 1: This has been a year of more.
Speaker 2: Disappointments, though than like a normal person should have. Obviously
Speaker 2: there is no should. I'm still here. Everyone's in one
Speaker 2: mostly in one piece, like no one who's a horse.
Speaker 1: I mean one piece put together. I mean, yeah, so.
Speaker 2: There's hope for the future. But like so I ended
Speaker 2: up canceling my trip in July to see Laura and
Speaker 2: a good friend. I had already missed a conference in
Speaker 2: San Francisco because my mother in law passed. Like they
Speaker 2: were all like very much like good reasons, like I
Speaker 2: couldn't have done it any other way, or I wouldn't
Speaker 2: have done it any other way. And it's also just
Speaker 2: added up to a kind of a sucky like it's
Speaker 2: I've had my own personal COVID year, yeah.
Speaker 1: While everyone else got to have normal. But that's You's
Speaker 1: a planner, right, you got a new planner so so
Speaker 1: that you don't have to look at all the stuff
Speaker 1: that you're not doing well. I did that in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty two.
Speaker 2: But yes, I did get a new July to December
Speaker 2: planner because I couldn't stand the idea of trying to
Speaker 2: plan my work schedule right on top of my snorkeling
Speaker 2: and surf lesson.
Speaker 1: Guys, wait, were you going to do the surf lesson?
Speaker 1: I thought you had decided not to do the surflas.
Speaker 2: So caectate this surf less and I was very excited
Speaker 2: to do so it was going to be so cool,
Speaker 2: Like he even told me, like there's a place to sit.
Speaker 1: Like, here's the good news.
Speaker 2: My planning did not go to waste because I have
Speaker 2: a really well thought out Hawaii trip just waiting to
Speaker 2: be rebooked. And you guys, my organization helped. Like I
Speaker 2: was able to find everything very easily, and I have
Speaker 2: learned to book refundable over the years, so I got
Speaker 2: pretty much everything back.
Speaker 1: So that part is at least we will.
Speaker 2: Be able to use all that planning for a future
Speaker 2: Hawaii trip, which I've decided can't happen until next summer
Speaker 2: because I really want that full two week window and
Speaker 2: without doing crazy heroics and pulling kids out of school
Speaker 2: for long lengths of time, that would have to wait
Speaker 2: till next Summer's Yeah, but.
Speaker 1: You'll do something else for spring break, right, you'll do
Speaker 1: a trip maybe that you would have a spring break.
Speaker 2: You're exactly like trying to make up for the fact that, hey,
Speaker 2: like our vacation coffers will be a little more full
Speaker 2: than we might have expected for twenty twenty seven. Let's
Speaker 2: see what kind of really special things we can do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exciting. Well, best slide Plans, life happens, and
Speaker 1: we're amazed how resilient Sarah has been about all this.
Speaker 1: But anyway, so that's a life update there. But as
Speaker 1: part of that, you are home more, you are having
Speaker 1: more time to declutter. So we can pivot from there
Speaker 1: to your decluttering journey. So back in January, you hired
Speaker 1: somebody to come help you, right, What was the thinking
Speaker 1: with that?
Speaker 2: Yes, So, as I've talked about, if you're setting a
Speaker 2: goal over and over again and you're not changing any
Speaker 2: of the variables associated with that goal, you're like sort of.
Speaker 1: Doing an exercise and futility, and you.
Speaker 2: Can make a goal smaller, you can decide not to
Speaker 2: do a goal, you can change a goal, or you
Speaker 2: can get some kind of outsourcing or assistance. And I
Speaker 2: chose to go that route with my decluttering goal. We
Speaker 2: actually had a member of Best Laid Plans Live about
Speaker 2: a year ago that was a kon Mari consultant, which
Speaker 2: is how.
Speaker 1: I got the idea. Like, I will talk about con
Speaker 1: Mari in a minute.
Speaker 2: But I just think it's a fascinating framework of decoll uttering.
Speaker 2: And she has a training program where people can get
Speaker 2: trained in her methods. And this woman at our bestling,
Speaker 2: Plans Live was doing that, and I actually emailed her
Speaker 2: during the conference, Hey, can I hire you, like, will
Speaker 2: you help me virtually organize my house? She said no,
Speaker 2: she doesn't do virtual organizing, but she used some people
Speaker 2: that did. And then I really thought about it, and
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't really think virtual it's the
Speaker 2: way to go here, Like I think I need a
Speaker 2: human person with me in my house making things happen.
Speaker 2: It would be a little too easy to just not
Speaker 2: be accountable to something that felt less tangible. So I
Speaker 2: hired a woman named so It found there's like a
Speaker 2: network of kon Mari people. I sent emails out to
Speaker 2: two of them that were in South Florida, and I
Speaker 2: ended up hiring a woman named Sophie. And Sophie is young,
Speaker 2: she's in her twenties and she's come I don't know,
Speaker 2: like maybe seven or eight times now. She usually comes
Speaker 2: for three hours at a time, and we work on
Speaker 2: a kon Mari fired category.
Speaker 1: So we work together, like I am working.
Speaker 2: It is not like I can go do a podcast
Speaker 2: and she is organizing my bedroom like no, no, no,
Speaker 2: Like I am the one who has to decide what
Speaker 2: to keep and what to give away, et cetera.
Speaker 1: So, for example, we.
Speaker 2: Just did the kitchen, and the kitchen is not really
Speaker 2: a con Marin category, but again she works in the
Speaker 2: she's flexible and so it's one of the Homono categories,
Speaker 2: which just means like everyday things. And she actually divides
Speaker 2: the kitchen into food stuffs and then cooking preparation things,
Speaker 2: and then serving things. So there's like three categories. We
Speaker 2: did two out of the three during this three hour session.
Speaker 2: We did cooking preparation things, which is like pots, pans, gadgets,
Speaker 2: spatula's everything, and then also serving stuff, so that means
Speaker 2: every plate, every spoon, every whatever. And we took stuff
Speaker 2: out and then we decided did it spark joy or not,
Speaker 2: and then we put a lot of things to donate
Speaker 2: because they didn't spark joy, and then she helped me
Speaker 2: put them back in a smart fashion. And every time
Speaker 2: we've done an area, I get rid of a lot because,
Speaker 2: as it turns out, when you're not actively weeding out
Speaker 2: your stuff, you just kind of keep accumulating and accumulating.
Speaker 2: So that's kind of what the sessions look like. She
Speaker 2: actually at the last session, she could tell I was
Speaker 2: overwhelmed with like what do I do with all this stuff?
Speaker 2: And she's like, I will don't eat it for you
Speaker 2: for an extra little small fee, and I was like, yes,
Speaker 2: you will do that. I was like, here, please take
Speaker 2: my stuff for all I know. She sold it and
Speaker 2: then she made money twice.
Speaker 1: I don't care. It was out of my house.
Speaker 2: And that is what the kun Marii sessions look like.
Speaker 2: They're very helpful. There is a part that it's like, oh,
Speaker 2: I could do that on my own, but guys, I
Speaker 2: absolutely would not.
Speaker 1: I would not.
Speaker 2: And every time that she's even calming, I'm like, oh,
Speaker 2: there's a other stuff I'd rather be doing. But you know,
Speaker 2: when I've scheduled this and I promised myself I would
Speaker 2: do it, and I made time for it, and then
Speaker 2: after I'm done, I'm like, that was good. This really
Speaker 2: makes me feel better. This space is better. We did paper,
Speaker 2: which means we went through every single book in the house,
Speaker 2: not the kid's books, every single adult book in the house,
Speaker 2: and every single fire in my files.
Speaker 1: That was great. I mean they're much more functional now.
Speaker 1: That's cool. I mean, so I have a question, Sarah, like,
Speaker 1: is it really that bad? I mean, didn't you guys
Speaker 1: move in twenty twenty two.
Speaker 2: I don't think it's that bad, but it's not as
Speaker 2: good as I would like it to be.
Speaker 1: I see, okay, because I mean it sounds like she's
Speaker 1: been there what like twenty plus hours now, and it's
Speaker 1: been twenty plus hour projects.
Speaker 2: If you're really looking at like every paper you own,
Speaker 2: it takes a while. Maybe I didn't let me see,
Speaker 2: I didn't look at every paper I own.
Speaker 1: We did my.
Speaker 2: Closet, we did the bathrooms, we did the kitchen, and
Speaker 2: we did office supplies, books, papers. I think that's it.
Speaker 2: We haven't done the kids rooms. She hasn't done my husband,
Speaker 2: like Joshu said, And I think this will help a
Speaker 2: lot as well that he is willing to do sessions
Speaker 2: with her, because now he's like seeing what that looks like.
Speaker 1: And I do think some of.
Speaker 2: What is cluttering our house is maybe more his. But
Speaker 2: if he's going to do those sessions, then that will
Speaker 2: help as well. So yeah, I think I don't have
Speaker 2: like a hard deadline like initially because I wanted to
Speaker 2: finish in the year, but I'm definitely making significant progress
Speaker 2: and I just want to keep steadily going until we
Speaker 2: feel pretty done.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that is always the challenge. I mean,
Speaker 1: when you live with other people, there are many things
Speaker 1: you can do. There are also other things that are
Speaker 1: harder to do based on other people's things that they
Speaker 1: may or may not. Sometimes people feel things are perfect
Speaker 1: because they are theirs, an attitude that's out there.
Speaker 2: I've heard, Yes, that can be a barrier, but at
Speaker 2: least I don't know. I think it helps everybody in
Speaker 2: the family have an awareness of how things can be
Speaker 2: more functional when there's less clutter around, which I think
Speaker 2: is helpful.
Speaker 1: It's helpful put it that way. All right, Well, we're
Speaker 1: going to take a quick ad break and then we'll
Speaker 1: be back talking more about decluttering. Well, we are back
Speaker 1: talking decluttering. I mean, certainly the moving as an impetus
Speaker 1: to do this. You did get rid of some stuff,
Speaker 1: didn't you. I mean in twenty twenty two when you moved.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we definitely did. I think we could have
Speaker 2: done a slightly better job, but it definitely helped. I
Speaker 2: feel like you really did a blitz when you guys
Speaker 2: switched homes. Like there was a lot of boxes, and
Speaker 2: I feel like you were more ruthless about going through them.
Speaker 1: Maybe, I mean, we didn't get rid of everything. Certainly
Speaker 1: there were a ton of boxes just like put in
Speaker 1: the basement or put in the attic. But what did
Speaker 1: happen is then we hired the home manager shortly thereafter,
Speaker 1: and she kind of went through a lot of the stuff.
Speaker 1: And so I will put that out there as an
Speaker 1: idea for people. Certainly you can be part of the
Speaker 1: going through things, but if you sort of trust that
Speaker 1: the person is probably not going to throw out some
Speaker 1: priceless heirloom, right, you can also let somebody else do
Speaker 1: a lot of it. And part of what they're doing
Speaker 1: is not necessarily even getting rid of stuff, it's organizing it, like, Okay,
Speaker 1: these things all go in this bin, and now it's
Speaker 1: got a label on it, and so you can find
Speaker 1: the Christmas decorations, and she's not going through and saying like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's a really crappy Christmas decoration. You don't need that.
Speaker 1: But it is all going in a bin, and so
Speaker 1: when you pull it out later, you may decide you
Speaker 1: don't want to keep some of it, but it's all
Speaker 1: in one place. And so I know there's sort of
Speaker 1: a rule in decluttering that you're supposed to get rid
Speaker 1: of stuff first before organizing it. But I'll just point
Speaker 1: out that you can also have somebody organize stuff and
Speaker 1: then decide later if you're keeping things not, and that
Speaker 1: this is something you can get help with even if
Speaker 1: you are not personally going to be answering every question
Speaker 1: of do I like that sheet? Does that fork? Spark toy?
Speaker 1: And so forth? Speaking of sparking joy, so let's talk
Speaker 1: kan Mari. Sarah, what's the deal with kan Mari?
Speaker 2: Yes, we're going to compareing. Don't worry, this whole episode
Speaker 2: is not about kan Mari. We're going to compare and
Speaker 2: contrast some popular decluttering methodologies that we have come across
Speaker 2: over the year, many of which have been guests on
Speaker 2: our podcast, although not Marie Condo yet.
Speaker 1: Maybe one of these days we shall say. Well, her
Speaker 1: co author in a book was so we had remember
Speaker 1: that year's right? Okay, close enough.
Speaker 2: So Marie Condo obviously wrote The Life Changing Magic of
Speaker 2: Tidying Up, which came out around twenty fourteen. I believe
Speaker 2: it's not that old of a methodology, and she talks
Speaker 2: about holding every item in your house and figuring out
Speaker 2: whether it's sparks joy and then deciding whether to keep
Speaker 2: it and doing that in categories. She's very much not
Speaker 2: to go room by room. It's to literally like find
Speaker 2: every shirt in your house. But her methods are a
Speaker 2: little bit more tailored, I think, to a one bedroom
Speaker 2: apartment in Tokyo with no kids than they are to
Speaker 2: a four bedroom house in South Florida. Let's say, so
Speaker 2: there are parts that work. She has really strong opinions
Speaker 2: about how certain things should be stored. She really hates
Speaker 2: putting anything in wrappers. She believes that everything should be
Speaker 2: stored like stacked vertically. Her folding methods are I think genius,
Speaker 2: and I use many of them. And she gets a
Speaker 2: little bit of a bad rap for people thinking that
Speaker 2: she's prescribing minimalism.
Speaker 1: But that's actually a misunderstanding.
Speaker 2: So she once said something like I got down to
Speaker 2: ten books, and that got publicized as this person says
Speaker 2: to throw out all your books. You should only have
Speaker 2: ten books, unless she's like, I did not say that.
Speaker 2: She's like, in my personal situation, only ten of my
Speaker 2: books spark joy, so I let the others go. You
Speaker 2: may have a thousand books that spark joy, and that
Speaker 2: is fine with you. So it's more individualizable, I think
Speaker 2: than people give it credit for. But the idea is
Speaker 2: that everything in your house should you should really want.
Speaker 1: It to be there actively.
Speaker 2: She also kind of promises that you only have to
Speaker 2: do it once, but I've heard she's kind of backed
Speaker 2: out of that since having children.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, I mean, the idea that anything one
Speaker 1: would only have to do once is just kind of
Speaker 1: I don't know. I feel like the world doesn't necessarily
Speaker 1: work that way. Life doesn't work that way. There's entropy, right,
Speaker 1: Like things revert to a sort of less ordered state
Speaker 1: in the absence of effort, So it's going to have
Speaker 1: to be there. Yeah, I have to say I have
Speaker 1: not been found the whole kon Mari thing that appealing,
Speaker 1: And part of it was just, yes, the practic decalities
Speaker 1: of like here you are trying to like put everything,
Speaker 1: like every shirt in my house would be a disaster,
Speaker 1: or every book in the house. I think it would
Speaker 1: just be so overwhelming that we would just make a
Speaker 1: big mess and never get through anything. But I think
Speaker 1: more I really had a problem with the phrase your
Speaker 1: life begins when you put your house in order, and
Speaker 1: I think that is really a pernicious thought that is
Speaker 1: already in a lot of women's heads that I can't
Speaker 1: relax if my house is a mess, I can't go
Speaker 1: have fun. If my house is a mess, I have
Speaker 1: to clean up before I can live the life I want,
Speaker 1: And that is ridiculous. You can absolutely relax if your
Speaker 1: house is a mess. I mean, because the problem is
Speaker 1: if you live with other people, there are going to
Speaker 1: be messes, and then you'll never get to do anything
Speaker 1: else because it's just they're going to keep making messes,
Speaker 1: and then you will be trapped in this world where
Speaker 1: you never relax. So I would say, get past that idea.
Speaker 1: Your life begins now. Your life is going on. Now,
Speaker 1: this is life, whether your house is organized or not.
Speaker 2: You could ignore that part and just pay attention to
Speaker 2: the genius folding techniques.
Speaker 1: The folding techniques, well, there you go. What makes it
Speaker 1: so genius just because they don't get wrinkled then or.
Speaker 2: You can you can put stuff in drawers and see
Speaker 2: every shirt versus if they're in stacks, you only see
Speaker 2: the one on the top. But if they're like lying
Speaker 2: on their side, you can see everything. It's like much
Speaker 2: more logical.
Speaker 1: There you go. So let's move to Dana K. White.
Speaker 1: The K is important because Dana White is something like
Speaker 1: ultimate Fighting, I believe. But Dana Ka White is the
Speaker 1: organizing expert who is the author of A Slob Comes
Speaker 1: Clean was her blog and I think one of her books.
Speaker 1: We've both interviewed her. I believe Sarah at this point.
Speaker 2: Yes, I had her on Bustly Plans and she's so.
Speaker 1: Like mutual and orderly and all that, and I have
Speaker 1: trouble believing that she was actually that much of a slob.
Speaker 1: But maybe we never know what goes on behind closed doors,
Speaker 1: and that she has made a quite the career of
Speaker 1: writing about But I love her methods versus some of
Speaker 1: the other ones, So maybe you can talk about that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So her like main method is called the five step method,
Speaker 2: and it works for any space. And the five steps
Speaker 2: are number one, look for trash and trash it. Number two,
Speaker 2: find the easy stuff and re home it. So things
Speaker 2: that are like, oh, that's a shoe, It goes in
Speaker 2: the closet where we keep all the shoes. Number three,
Speaker 2: obvious donations socks with holes in them. And then for
Speaker 2: four and five, for anything left, ask where would I
Speaker 2: look for this? And then if there's a place that
Speaker 2: comes up, you put it there. And would I even
Speaker 2: think to look for it or would I just order
Speaker 2: a new one or go with that or whatever, And
Speaker 2: if it's the latter, then you can get rid of it.
Speaker 1: So very practical. And she also has.
Speaker 2: Two kind of major I don't know themes to what
Speaker 2: she does, which is to immediately bring stuff to their
Speaker 2: home so that you're never making a mess, meaning you
Speaker 2: will see a purse and then you rehome it, and
Speaker 2: then you see the bottle of Edyde drops that have
Speaker 2: visual aids but you guys can't see them, and you
Speaker 2: rehome that versus throwing everything on the floor and then
Speaker 2: making a giant mess that you then have to clean
Speaker 2: up if you get.
Speaker 1: Interrupted halfway through. So a wonderful method.
Speaker 2: For people with young chick kids, people who might be
Speaker 2: decluttering in small chunks of time. And then she also
Speaker 2: wasting called the container concept, which I like, which is
Speaker 2: that once you've defined a container for a given item,
Speaker 2: like this is my sock drawer. If it's full, that's
Speaker 2: all the socks you get to have. And if you're
Speaker 2: adding another pair and they don't fit, you have to
Speaker 2: remove one. I mean, of course there's limits to this,
Speaker 2: Like you could decide that you were ready for your
Speaker 2: next era in socks and you needed to have a
Speaker 2: bigger sock container. But in general this being a good
Speaker 2: policy to follow because our houses are finite, and having
Speaker 2: stuff that's just like overstuffed and overflowing all over the
Speaker 2: place generally makes it very hard to use and very frustrating.
Speaker 1: So I like the container concept. Yeah, I would say
Speaker 1: that's the one part I was not so fond of
Speaker 1: because I feel it's just like, well, in life, you
Speaker 1: can always get a bigger container, like in many circumstances.
Speaker 1: I mean maybe if you're like floating in the middle
Speaker 1: of the water on a house boat, like, no, you
Speaker 1: can't get a larger container. But like in a lot
Speaker 1: of circumstances in modern life, you can in fact get
Speaker 1: a larger container for whatever you want to do. If anyway,
Speaker 1: I think some people have trouble raining themselves in though
Speaker 1: I didn't like the idea that it could be used
Speaker 1: to like bully other household members too. Oh fair, okay,
Speaker 1: Like mommy wants to have a minimalist bedroom for my kids,
Speaker 1: so you can only have six toys. I have defined
Speaker 1: the container as six toys, Like I think that's not her,
Speaker 1: that's not her saying, but that's what I've seen that
Speaker 1: container concept used in sort of like people explaining how
Speaker 1: they think about it, and I just like that repulses
Speaker 1: me so much that I am, no, that's wrong. I agree.
Speaker 2: You can't define someone else's container. Come on, no, no,
Speaker 2: I was thinking of it more for your own container.
Speaker 2: And I do think some people just have trouble setting limits,
Speaker 2: like yeah, let me keep twenty seven winter coats because
Speaker 2: I might need one, Like those kind of people can benefit.
Speaker 1: From some God yea well. And I am totally into
Speaker 1: the container concept when I travel, Like, what you can
Speaker 1: take on this trip is the size of suitcase that
Speaker 1: will fit in an overhead container on an international flight,
Speaker 1: like that is what you can take because if you're
Speaker 1: going bigger than that, you are checking bags, the airpline
Speaker 1: is going to lose them. They are going to get
Speaker 1: stuck somewhere in like Heathrow, and you will never get
Speaker 1: them back, or else you'll just be waiting for an
Speaker 1: hour for them to come out of the baggage claim.
Speaker 1: And who needs that, right, Just define your container smaller
Speaker 1: and you will never face that. So I do totally
Speaker 1: get it in that circumstance. I just think sort of
Speaker 1: for like normal life. It may be slightly less of
Speaker 1: an effective way there because there isn't a true limit
Speaker 1: in many cases. But I love the idea of not
Speaker 1: making a bigger mess. I mean this is like it
Speaker 1: just is so more practical because the reason your life
Speaker 1: is sort of like you don't have unlimited amount of
Speaker 1: time to go through your Like the reason things are
Speaker 1: stacking up is because you have three little kids and
Speaker 1: a job, and the mail comes in and before you
Speaker 1: can sort it, somebody needs a glass of milk, and
Speaker 1: somebody else needs help in the bathroom. And then it's
Speaker 1: because you are gonna constantly be pulled away. If any
Speaker 1: sort of organizing creates a bigger mess, it's just gonna
Speaker 1: go backwards, like you will just have a bigger mess,
Speaker 1: and then it's frustrating. And so it does seem inefficient
Speaker 1: to like rehome things quickly, although you could always like
Speaker 1: put us like five things together to take up to
Speaker 1: your bedroom from the kitchen or whatever it is. But
Speaker 1: you know who doesn't need more steps? Right? Like this
Speaker 1: is like, oh, well, I'm gonna be going up the
Speaker 1: stairs more times than I need to. Great, like call
Speaker 1: it your cardio for the day, mini workout, mini workout
Speaker 1: for sure, for sure. All right, let's quick do the
Speaker 1: systematic overhaul with Organized three sixty five. Like because I
Speaker 1: Lisa is a big friend of the show. We've talked
Speaker 1: to her, both of us. Alisa Woodruff Organized three sixty five.
Speaker 1: You've done this program a few times, right, Sarah. I've
Speaker 1: done parts of it a few times. I love Lisa.
Speaker 2: I love how she like this is not at all
Speaker 2: to disparage her stuff, because I think it's fantastic. I
Speaker 2: love how she thinks. I enjoy her work immensely, and
Speaker 2: I consider her a friend. She has a home organization
Speaker 2: program that has like a small video for what you
Speaker 2: do each day to basically organize your entire home over
Speaker 2: the course the scope of a year, and I think
Speaker 2: it's really well done. I just have never made it
Speaker 2: through to the end.
Speaker 1: Personally.
Speaker 2: I think that it's actually a fantastic way to break
Speaker 2: up a Sisifian task like organizing your home into actual
Speaker 2: bite sized pieces, like none of them are that bad.
Speaker 2: I just always tended to lose motivation somewhere in the middle,
Speaker 2: and then I don't know, maybe I have too much
Speaker 2: of an all or nothing mindset and had trouble climbing
Speaker 2: back on.
Speaker 1: That's not even to say that I wouldn't even do it.
Speaker 2: Someday, maybe after I've conmarried my house, I'll do that
Speaker 2: as a refresh.
Speaker 1: I think it's a great system.
Speaker 2: The other thing that she pairs with that is she
Speaker 2: does have ways that you can find community with that
Speaker 2: might help people with the motivational piece. I just wasn't
Speaker 2: looking for that specifically, but it is a great technique,
Speaker 2: and I like the systematic nature of it, Like it'll
Speaker 2: be like one day is just sucks and another.
Speaker 1: Day just for organized through sixty five. Are there three
Speaker 1: hundred and sixty five things or is it like yeah,
Speaker 1: so one it's something like that. It's like one a
Speaker 1: day for a year.
Speaker 2: Okay, on very small spots, and like you'll be like
Speaker 2: in the kitchen, let's say for a month, but each
Speaker 2: day is like a task. Organize your spices, organize your forks.
Speaker 2: Yeah it's a bad example, but you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And so then you need to just like anything broken
Speaker 1: down into small bits is going to be easier to
Speaker 1: do than Again, it's wonderful that Sarah is finding three
Speaker 1: hours and partly hiring someone to come in to do
Speaker 1: it is allowing that to happen, because it's then she's
Speaker 1: put money into it. But in many cases people are
Speaker 1: not going to do that. So it's like, Okay, if
Speaker 1: I've decided I have twenty minutes a day to do this,
Speaker 1: that's still a reasonable amount of time. Over the course
Speaker 1: of a year, you could get a lot done. You
Speaker 1: just have to keep going, and Lisa has these great
Speaker 1: ideas for what you can do next, and keep going
Speaker 1: and keep going. I think somebody doing that disease to
Speaker 1: make sure they've got the accountability piece figured out. So
Speaker 1: maybe do it with a friend, right, Like each day
Speaker 1: you would text each other did you do your forks? Yes?
Speaker 2: Oh that's a great idea. I like that to do
Speaker 2: it with friend.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: It's funny because I consider myself very good at checking
Speaker 2: off boxes and accountability. But I mean, listen, all of
Speaker 2: us have areas of weakness, and I think for me,
Speaker 2: I would get home from a day of work and
Speaker 2: I'm like, well I'm not no one's no I got
Speaker 2: I mean again, I think I'm an upholder that actually
Speaker 2: leans obliger sometimes because I'm like, well, no one actually
Speaker 2: cares if I do this, and like I'm tired.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well there you go. But if you can brush
Speaker 1: your teeth every day, you could probably find a couple
Speaker 1: of minutes to organize your house every day if you
Speaker 1: just figure out what the motivation is. Yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: we're going to take one more quick ad break and
Speaker 1: then we'll be back with a little bit more on decluttering. Well,
Speaker 1: we are back. We are talking at decluttering, different methods,
Speaker 1: our thoughts on them. Minimalism is a hot topic for sure.
Speaker 1: Dif forms people have this like simplicity or essentialism, and
Speaker 1: the idea is basically that you just have very little.
Speaker 1: How's that working for you, Sarah? Are you minimalist? No?
Speaker 2: I mean, listen, I'm also highly attracted to this without
Speaker 2: living it at Oh, Like, my clothes are pretty minimal.
Speaker 1: If she was still on Instagram, her entire feed would
Speaker 1: be like, this is my beige nursery with one toy.
Speaker 2: I mean my clothing. Like the amount of clothes I have,
Speaker 2: I think is approaching minimalists. That is the one area
Speaker 2: of my life.
Speaker 1: Even then.
Speaker 2: So Shira Gill is famous for this, and she wrote
Speaker 2: a book called Minimalista. She's been on our podcast. She's
Speaker 2: an amazing designer. Like her design sense is fantastic, and
Speaker 2: she's written a number of beautiful books on the topic.
Speaker 2: She also cataloged at one point every single thing she owned,
Speaker 2: like she knew everything in her house, and I'm like,
Speaker 2: that is so cool. And also I could never like
Speaker 2: too much chaos, too many people, too many things not happening.
Speaker 1: Though, doesn't she have three kids? She has three kids.
Speaker 1: She has a bunch of kids.
Speaker 2: I think there was a caveat that, like not all
Speaker 2: of her kids' pro possessions might have been included in
Speaker 2: the list, partly for privacy purposes.
Speaker 1: Okay, each individual lego. I'm curious. I have ten blue
Speaker 1: four by two.
Speaker 2: I mean, the idea of having less is appealing. It
Speaker 2: is less to clean up when you.
Speaker 1: Have less stuff.
Speaker 2: It can just lead itself to an aesthetic that I
Speaker 2: enjoy like I would much rather. I mean, I joke
Speaker 2: that I'd like to live in like a jail cell,
Speaker 2: like nothing in it, just from an esthetic point of view,
Speaker 2: like clean lines, nothing on the walls, like I maybe
Speaker 2: one flower in a slim vase like that's it, right,
Speaker 2: versus people who like the look of abundance, like a
Speaker 2: bunch of different colorful vases around in artwork and things
Speaker 2: like that. So like the esthetic piece appeals to me.
Speaker 2: The big downside to me is like, if you live
Speaker 2: with other people and they're not interested, then you are not.
Speaker 2: Your stuff can be minimalists, but you will live a
Speaker 2: minimalist lifestyle. And I have to say that like anybody
Speaker 2: who has is not as many pens as I have
Speaker 2: probably can't really call themselves a minimalist.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm glad to know, Sarah that if you ever
Speaker 1: wind up in a jail cell, I know it's to
Speaker 1: send you a single flower in a small, slim vase.
Speaker 1: That'll be my head. A pack of pens and a
Speaker 1: pack of pens. Well, yes, that'll be useful for sure. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know. I mean like, sometimes life is just inherently
Speaker 1: complex and there's only so much simplicity you can have
Speaker 1: in a household of seven people, even though I know
Speaker 1: some people do manage to pull it off. And sometimes
Speaker 1: it's just like what might be simple with three people
Speaker 1: becomes more complex with seven people. I mean, I've talked
Speaker 1: in the past about how if a family has one
Speaker 1: kid and that kid is in five activities, that seems
Speaker 1: like a lot. People will be like, oh, I'm so
Speaker 1: worried about overscheduling. My kid is in five activities. Well,
Speaker 1: if I have five kids and they're each in one thing,
Speaker 1: it's the same volume. It's the same volume stuff. And
Speaker 1: so what would peer like overwhelmingly big with one kid
Speaker 1: is just absolutely minimal with five, And so we tend
Speaker 1: to be more in the realm of like twenty different
Speaker 1: things going on. That is what it is. That's you
Speaker 1: can have good systems, you have orderly systems. It's just
Speaker 1: not going to be simplistic or minimalist or anything like that.
Speaker 1: And I guess it's okay. I do like clear counters,
Speaker 1: though I get itchy when I come home from a
Speaker 1: trip and I can tell because I'm the one who's
Speaker 1: enforcing it, and I come home from a trip and
Speaker 1: there's stuff on the kitchen counters, like unless our cleaning
Speaker 1: service has been there that morning, our home manager was
Speaker 1: working that day, Like, there's just gonna be stuff on
Speaker 1: the counter. I've been to your house. The counters are
Speaker 1: pretty darn clear. What it is. I like it. It
Speaker 1: makes things feel calm, Like do you have that? I
Speaker 1: mean you're I mean you don't restore a ton of stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we don't have a ton of stuff on our counters.
Speaker 1: I also really like setting my desk back to like
Speaker 1: pristine whiteness and having a desk that just looks good.
Speaker 1: And it can be messy for like a day or two,
Speaker 1: but then I go and like, yeah, like for me
Speaker 1: to set out to work with a nice, clean, orderly
Speaker 1: desk makes me happy. And our counters are usually.
Speaker 2: Actually right now, I think all that's on our little
Speaker 2: ledge is a single face with orchinds in it.
Speaker 1: I love it. I love it. That's great. And then finally,
Speaker 1: tidy Dad, your buddy tell us about tidy Dad. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love Tyler Moore.
Speaker 2: So he wrote a book called I think it's called
Speaker 2: Tidy Dad, and his idea is like gamifying a lot
Speaker 2: of decluttering. But one thing he came up with that
Speaker 2: I just thought was pretty brilliant was the idea of
Speaker 2: having like a monthly cadence. So he's not promising that
Speaker 2: you're gonna be done decluttering, like there's no end, but
Speaker 2: instead to be like every month has a theme and.
Speaker 1: They're thought out strategically.
Speaker 2: So for example, November you would do your holiday decourse
Speaker 2: so that you're like ready for the holiday season coming up,
Speaker 2: and like August you would do all the backpack related stuff,
Speaker 2: and I forget like your mudroom if you have one,
Speaker 2: so you're always going through and different months. You might
Speaker 2: know that you're always busy in June and traveling, so
Speaker 2: maybe you don't have a lot that month, but you
Speaker 2: just have this.
Speaker 1: Like Cadence, and I believe.
Speaker 2: I think you can probably find his stuff on his
Speaker 2: Instagram and like actually get a copy of his template.
Speaker 2: But I also feel like this is right for making
Speaker 2: your own, Like maybe his isn't exactly what you'd want,
Speaker 2: but for your household. School starts in August, so you'd
Speaker 2: want to do the school stuff in July.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I like it. And so he's got the system
Speaker 1: that you follow his system like what happens what month?
Speaker 2: He has a suggestion system. But then it's my twist
Speaker 2: to like come.
Speaker 1: Up with your own excellent and have you ever done
Speaker 1: one of those things like the fifteen minute daily sleep
Speaker 1: sweep or go through with a trash bag and get
Speaker 1: rid of one hundred items in fifteen minutes or whatever
Speaker 1: that is? Have you done any of that?
Speaker 2: I've never done any of that, but I think it's cool.
Speaker 2: There's a blogger that I follow. I think she's like
Speaker 2: the Hawaii Plan or something like that, and she'll often
Speaker 2: have in her goals list for the month to like
Speaker 2: declutter one hundred items, and I'm like.
Speaker 1: Is she counting the items? I mean, it's pretty cool.
Speaker 2: And then a lot of times she will to be like,
Speaker 2: i'd you cluttered one hundred and seventy items, Like wow,
Speaker 2: So no, I have not tried it.
Speaker 1: I think it sounds great. So I think this could
Speaker 1: be a one fun way to sort of like gamify
Speaker 1: it if with family members like to get help with
Speaker 1: this sort of thing, Like if every kid had a
Speaker 1: trash bag and they're like, okay, find twenty things that
Speaker 1: need to be thrown out in this house or out
Speaker 1: in the yard, right, like, because then people have put
Speaker 1: trash alongside the road or something. That could be really
Speaker 1: helpful because especially if you have three or four kids
Speaker 1: or something, I mean that's like eighty things that are
Speaker 1: out of the house, it's probably going to look better
Speaker 1: with the obvious trash out to it. That's always something
Speaker 1: I liked about the Dana K. White version of it too,
Speaker 1: Like the first thing is to get rid of the
Speaker 1: obvious trash, and even if you do nothing else, like
Speaker 1: almost any room is going to look better without the
Speaker 1: trash in it, So you win, you win, like even
Speaker 1: without organizing stuff in cool little bins and putting true
Speaker 1: labels on it. Yeah all right, So how many more
Speaker 1: sessions do you have with Sophie? That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I don't know in the end actually is going to be.
Speaker 2: I mean, well, I'm going to guess we're half done.
Speaker 1: We're half done, Okay, yeah it is. We're halfway through
Speaker 1: the year. So yeah, that works. That works, all right,
Speaker 1: So good investment. You're happy you did it?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean honestly, compared to things like renovations, it
Speaker 2: has not been that expensive. I think she's happy with
Speaker 2: what she's earning. It's an hourly. I didn't buy a package.
Speaker 2: I'd just pay her by the hour. But it really
Speaker 2: hasn't been too crazy, so I think it's a great investment.
Speaker 2: I would not have done this on my own.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, there's an idea if you think you need
Speaker 1: to put on an addition because you're out of room
Speaker 1: in your house, like possibly paying an organizer to help
Speaker 1: you get through some of the stuff and get rid
Speaker 1: of it might be a lot cheaper than doing that,
Speaker 1: So stand corrected there on the container thing. Sometimes that
Speaker 1: would be maybe recognizing the container size of the house
Speaker 1: versus adding on a different room to it, or a
Speaker 1: sex floor storage unit. Storage unit. We paid for one
Speaker 1: for a couple of years, but for a reason, when
Speaker 1: Jasper was born and we were still in a one
Speaker 1: bedroom apartment, we put his crib, like we had to
Speaker 1: put his crib in one of the common areas, and
Speaker 1: so everything that had been in that area had to
Speaker 1: go somewhere. So we put it in a storage unit
Speaker 1: because we were living in New York City at the time,
Speaker 1: and so I guess that's the thing. You can get
Speaker 1: the container larger by getting a storage unit. We kept
Speaker 1: it for the time we were there, which is about
Speaker 1: I want to say, three years, and we moved into
Speaker 1: a different apartment and kept it there. But then when
Speaker 1: we moved to our new house in Pennsylvania, we got
Speaker 1: everything out of the storage unit and in fact wound
Speaker 1: up keeping like we've put the chair back in the house,
Speaker 1: like we put the dining room table back in the house,
Speaker 1: like we started using it again. So I think in
Speaker 1: our case that was like a little different.
Speaker 2: If it's nice stuff that was like expensive, then I
Speaker 2: guess it makes sense otherwise. I mean, we tend to
Speaker 2: buy ikia, So my guess is that the storage unit
Speaker 2: would cost far more than it would cost to just
Speaker 2: rebuy some furniture. Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Not as good for the earth, though, So there you go. Yeah. Well, so, okay,
Speaker 1: should we do the Q and A first or the
Speaker 1: Love of the week first? Which do you prefer to?
Speaker 1: Let's do the Love of the week. Okay, what's making
Speaker 1: you happy this week?
Speaker 2: Sarah? Well, I mentioned to have a lot of pens,
Speaker 2: and I also have a lot of stickers, and it's
Speaker 2: not minimalist at all. I mean, maybe it's a little minimist.
Speaker 2: Like it's not like I have like five drawers of them.
Speaker 2: I have like one drawer of them. But they make
Speaker 2: me so happy. And I'm forty six years old and
Speaker 2: I like my stickers.
Speaker 1: Stickers are never too old to be any age and
Speaker 1: love your stickers. So I'm going to say Midsummer flowers
Speaker 1: Hydrangea's liies Rose says, I would probably not just go
Speaker 1: for a single flower in a small vase, although I
Speaker 1: don't really put that many inside. I like to look
Speaker 1: at them outside. I don't know when they're inside. Then
Speaker 1: you know something you have to deal with the water
Speaker 1: you have. They start going bad at some point, and
Speaker 1: then the petals are falling off, and then they're on
Speaker 1: my counter, and so I'm picking up petals off the counter,
Speaker 1: so kind of at the moment, I've just been enjoying
Speaker 1: them outside. But you know, you can go outside, so
Speaker 1: that works, all right. Question what is in your every
Speaker 1: day carrying bag? This is another place that people sometimes
Speaker 1: declutter at their purse. Yeah, all right.
Speaker 2: In my work bag, which is like a little leather
Speaker 2: toe that I've had for like a decade, I carry
Speaker 2: my laptop every day, my oh I need you planner,
Speaker 2: my car keys, my wallet, sunglasses, an extra pair of
Speaker 2: contact lenses, and emergency tampon.
Speaker 1: That's pretty much it. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then in my like out and about bag that
Speaker 2: I would use, like on weekends, I have usually just
Speaker 2: pull I don't bring my whole wallet, I just bring
Speaker 2: like my d in, a couple credit cards, a small sunscreen,
Speaker 2: a small masque spray or even mosquito spray wipes if
Speaker 2: I'm trying to be streamlined, a lip bomb, sunglasses, and
Speaker 2: again an emergency tampon.
Speaker 1: So question, why do you have a different bag for
Speaker 1: the weekend versus your work bag. Oh, my work bag
Speaker 1: is much bigger.
Speaker 2: I don't, okay, carry my laptop and planner around if
Speaker 2: we're going to like my in law's house or something.
Speaker 1: My weekend bag is like your weekend bag is significantly
Speaker 1: smaller than the work bag.
Speaker 2: My weekend bag is just like a cross body little
Speaker 2: I could walk everywhere and whatever my work bag. It's
Speaker 2: not like I'm doing a lot of walking. I mean,
Speaker 2: I park and then I walk across the parking lot
Speaker 2: and carry it to my office.
Speaker 1: So I can carry on as much as I want. Okay, gotcha.
Speaker 1: So I don't have like a separate weekend bag. I
Speaker 1: just have my everyday one, which is my But of
Speaker 1: course I'm working from home most of the time, so
Speaker 1: I'm not really using it to go back and forth
Speaker 1: to an office. But I have this long shomp tote.
Speaker 1: It is gray leather. I bought it in December of
Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, so it is eight years old.
Speaker 2: Now.
Speaker 1: Oh my going strong, which is good because I like
Speaker 1: my things to last. I would be very upset if
Speaker 1: it was breaking. I don't really, I'm just trying to
Speaker 1: remember what is actually in there, because I try not
Speaker 1: to look in there too often, but my wallet, my keys,
Speaker 1: my sunglasses. If I'm traveling far, I will put my
Speaker 1: actual glasses in there, because that's then the fallback. Obviously,
Speaker 1: if something goes wrong with my contact lenses, then I
Speaker 1: want to make sure I have my actual glasses so
Speaker 1: I can see chapstick and lipstock, like one of the
Speaker 1: little lipstick floss. I get stuff stuck in my teeth
Speaker 1: all the time and really annoys me if I don't
Speaker 1: have a floss with me. Obviously, personal products as needed,
Speaker 1: my phone, headphones. I actually have two kinds of headphones.
Speaker 1: I have the ones that plug into my iPhone and
Speaker 1: then also the ones that go into like the airplane
Speaker 1: back of seat, so I have both of those in there.
Speaker 1: If it might rain, I'll stick an umbrella in there,
Speaker 1: but I usually don't automatically have an umbrella in there.
Speaker 1: If I'm going far reading material like I can put
Speaker 1: a magazine in there, and if I'm traveling, my laptop
Speaker 1: will in there. I often use my tote as my
Speaker 1: carry on bag on my personal item, so it's important
Speaker 1: that it fit my laptop, but I just bring it
Speaker 1: around on weekends too. It's not that heavy and if
Speaker 1: I don't have my laptop in it, then it's not
Speaker 1: hard to carry around.
Speaker 2: Usually I forgot my AirPods.
Speaker 1: I do usually have those.
Speaker 2: You have those in there with her?
Speaker 1: All right? Well. It reminds me I have to declutter
Speaker 1: it though, every time I go get on an airplane,
Speaker 1: because I might have randomly stuck some sort of liquid
Speaker 1: item in there and I forget about it, and then
Speaker 1: it would cause a problem at the essay going through.
Speaker 1: So I do have to go through it every time
Speaker 1: I fly. So I guess that keeps it relatively clean.
Speaker 2: There you go every day, carry kind of fit with
Speaker 2: the decluttering theme.
Speaker 1: Every day carry all right? Well, this has been best
Speaker 1: of both worlds. We've been talking all things decluttering, looking
Speaker 1: at various different methods. We will be back next week
Speaker 1: with more on making work and life fit together. Thanks
Speaker 1: for listening.
Speaker 2: You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
Speaker 2: or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can.
Speaker 1: Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has
Speaker 1: been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us
Speaker 1: next time for more on making work and life work together.