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Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio podcast.

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Speaker 1: This week's at All Education, we've got Jessica Bauman. She

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Speaker 1: is a licensed psychotherapist and she's got a book out

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Speaker 1: called Safe, an Attachment Informed Guide to building more Secure Relationships.

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Speaker 1: Her best selling book, Anxiously Attached Becoming More Secure in

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Speaker 1: Life and Love established her as a trusted voice and

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Speaker 1: the healing of attachment wounds and building secure, fulfilling relationships.

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Speaker 1: So let's get her on to talk about her new

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Speaker 1: book and learn a little bit more about attachment styles. Hi,

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Speaker 1: how are you?

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Speaker 2: It's been a while?

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Speaker 1: I know it's how long has it been since you've been.

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Speaker 2: On a couple years? I think, But I think.

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Speaker 1: Was I single?

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Speaker 2: Married? Divorce?

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Speaker 1: Which one was?

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Speaker 2: I definitely didn't have this guy sitting.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Okay, I was probably single? Got it? Copy that? Okay?

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Speaker 1: So you have another book out, yes, And I love

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Speaker 1: this because I feel like, yes, it's been talked about, right,

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Speaker 1: attachment styles and all of that, but the way that

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Speaker 1: you're diving deeper into them, I think is so good

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Speaker 1: because but also I guess my main question is and

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Speaker 1: we'll just like jump right into it, because I just

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Speaker 1: have a lot of questions. But what I've noticed for

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Speaker 1: me is that my attachment styles have changed. How often

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Speaker 1: do you see that changing or is that something where

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Speaker 1: you're like, actually, they don't change.

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Speaker 2: It's not so much that they don't change. They there's

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Speaker 2: a lot of factors, like who you're attaching to because

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Speaker 2: it's a two way street, and what their embedded patterns are.

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Speaker 2: Could like, if you're attaching to someone who's more secure,

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Speaker 2: you might show up differently. Then if you're attaching to

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Speaker 2: someone who's more avoidant, you might show up more anxious.

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Speaker 2: So your patterns are a combination of two people and

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Speaker 2: they're embedded patterns, and like the relational dance, and you

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Speaker 2: can change your attached style, but it does require work

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Speaker 2: and it does require to attach to more secure people.

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Speaker 1: Right, I feel like one of the things because I

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Speaker 1: definitely wasn't anxiously attached like that comes from childhood to

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Speaker 1: you know, just things that went on in my past.

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Speaker 1: So that was one thousand percent where my attachment was.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, there's moments where I could see how that

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Speaker 1: could creep back in as that's the deep embedded one

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Speaker 1: in me. But the more I've done, you know, with

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Speaker 1: therapy and trusting myself, and that is in not just

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Speaker 1: focusing on a person, but going inward and going okay,

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Speaker 1: you can trust yourself, which then I feel like has

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Speaker 1: made me more of that secure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but you've also had people who help you learn

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Speaker 2: how to put yourself like mirror you or processing with you,

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Speaker 2: so you can start to trust yourself more. Do you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean? Which is probably what you didn't

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Speaker 2: get when you were younger.

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Speaker 1: Right, where do you see is most? Do you see more?

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Speaker 1: Let's actually save all the styles and then what from

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Speaker 1: all the work that you've done, where do you see

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Speaker 1: people fall more on the attachment styles?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, in this book I have the wheel of attachment,

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Speaker 2: but I would say most people fall between anxious and avoidant.

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Speaker 2: But then there's disorganized and there's a lot of security.

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Speaker 2: And I don't think that we like we have a

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Speaker 2: default way of handling fear and connection. But I think

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Speaker 2: that it's very rare to have one attachment pattern. Many

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Speaker 2: of us have several different experiences inside of us, and

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Speaker 2: depending on our inner and outer circumstances, different adaptations will

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Speaker 2: show up.

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Speaker 3: That makes sense absolutely So if you've got so you

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Speaker 3: get a certain person that's got certing certain attachment styles

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Speaker 3: based on childhood and experiences. Do you and I don't

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Speaker 3: know if you call this in the book, but do

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Speaker 3: you like almost recommend them to be with certain types

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Speaker 3: of people or not?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean in the book, I talk about finding

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Speaker 2: your anchors. So it doesn't mean that you have to

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Speaker 2: be like necessarily go I mean obviously finding a secure

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Speaker 2: person who's going to help anyone's attachment style people who

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Speaker 2: are more secure, but doing the work of healing needs

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Speaker 2: to be done with people who have more of a

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Speaker 2: felt sense of safety and are more secure. So as

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Speaker 2: you do the inner work, and I talk about the

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Speaker 2: inner work in the book and about how we internalize

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Speaker 2: people and how we are orienting to people. If we

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Speaker 2: orient to people who are anchors and have the safety

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Speaker 2: and we do the work, we will internalize them and

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Speaker 2: then we're internalizing inner security in that way. So that

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Speaker 2: doesn't need to happen through a romantic relationship that but

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Speaker 2: that needs to happen in relationship. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, of course. So in the book, do you cover

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Speaker 3: like people almost because you can? I mean I would

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Speaker 3: imagine and I'm no expert, and that's at all, like

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Speaker 3: not even close in fact, that would be I would

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Speaker 3: say I'm probably an absolute novice. But if you can't

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Speaker 3: reclaim control of yourself, then how can you be how

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Speaker 3: can you be there for someone else? Do you cover

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Speaker 3: that in a book on how you can actually like

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Speaker 3: ankles and ways that you can reclaim control of who

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Speaker 3: you are authentically so that you can show up authentic

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Speaker 3: for someone else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I talk about like our ability to hold space

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Speaker 2: and show up for people is based on people showing

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Speaker 2: up and holding space for us. So the more that

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Speaker 2: we experience safeholding and get vulnerable and do the work

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Speaker 2: and we are held emotionally by other people, the more

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Speaker 2: the more we're able to offer that to other people.

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Speaker 2: Because we have to have the experience of it first.

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Speaker 2: We can't offer to someone that. And so if we're

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Speaker 2: doing deep healing and there's a lot of dysregulation happening,

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Speaker 2: we need someone to help us co regulate, and we're

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Speaker 2: not able to offer that to someone else until we

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Speaker 2: kind of move through that. And you know, as a therapist,

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Speaker 2: like I've done a lot of healing and i can

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Speaker 2: hold space, and there are still days when I'm disregulated

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Speaker 2: and I'm not able to offer that because we're human

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Speaker 2: and kind of move through so many things, and you know,

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Speaker 2: but you know, the more work you do and the

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Speaker 2: more inner safety you develop and the more security you have,

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Speaker 2: the more you're able to offer that to others. And

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Speaker 2: that's what happens to babies. So like, if our parents

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Speaker 2: don't have an inherent sense of safety and security, they

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Speaker 2: can't offer that to us. So we're internalizing anxiety and avoidance,

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Speaker 2: and then we're not We're we're falling in the insecure categories.

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Speaker 2: If our parents had a neuroception of safety and security

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Speaker 2: within them, they're showing up emotionally at present enough for

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Speaker 2: us that we will internalize that safety and then be

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Speaker 2: able to offer it to others. Does that make sense? Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: What if your partner is avoidant, you are more anxiously

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Speaker 1: attached or vice versa, but obviously you want to be

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Speaker 1: with them. How do you make that work or is

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Speaker 1: that just like a recipe for disaster? No?

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Speaker 2: I mean I talk about and anxiously attached how to

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Speaker 2: work through the anxious avoidant pattern, but it's not so

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Speaker 2: much a recipe for disaster. I've seen a lot of

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Speaker 2: couples heal in this dynamic. But the problem with anxious

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Speaker 2: avoidant is that the anxious person, in order to get

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Speaker 2: the illusion of safety and cope with their abandonment when

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Speaker 2: wants to run towards the partner in fear, and the

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Speaker 2: avoidant person regulates their system by running away. So what

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Speaker 2: happens in those dynamics is that when fear enters the

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Speaker 2: system and we're not safe, the way in which each

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Speaker 2: person tries to get back into safety is the opposite

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Speaker 2: of what the other person can offer, So they get

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Speaker 2: stuck in those ways. But I think just understanding the

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Speaker 2: nervous system patterns and having different tools can start to

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Speaker 2: shift that shift that dynamic.

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Speaker 1: What are some of the tools that you talk about

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Speaker 1: in your book.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I don't go a lot into the anxious avoidant,

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Speaker 2: dance insafe.

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Speaker 1: A little bit or as a therapist. I guess then

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Speaker 1: that maybe not in the book, but just what would

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Speaker 1: be some of the tools.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, so starting to recognize your nervous system

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Speaker 2: patterns and what happens in your system when you feel scared?

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Speaker 2: Do you shut down or do you get bigger? What

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Speaker 2: do you need to feel safe? What is it your

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Speaker 2: partner can't give you? And can we give compassion to

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Speaker 2: the fact that your partner can't show up for you,

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Speaker 2: not because they don't want to, but because their nervous

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Speaker 2: system is shutting down. And that's all happening ontonomic level,

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Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying, Like, it's it's not conscious,

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Speaker 2: Like we're not trying to hurt each other. So I

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Speaker 2: think once people start to understand the nervous system a

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Speaker 2: little betther, there's a little more compassion for like, oh,

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Speaker 2: my husband shuts down, He's not trying to hurt me.

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Speaker 2: This is how he's hurting, and this is how his

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Speaker 2: system's trying to regulate in this moment.

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Speaker 1: When you're working through healing, what is the best thing,

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Speaker 1: Like how does a safe person have a role in

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Speaker 1: that healing?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So, as we are healing implicit memory and attachment wounds,

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Speaker 2: the safety in what we call a ventral state, which

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Speaker 2: is a state of safety, and the other person's nervous

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Speaker 2: system essentially co regulates us. So as we regress and

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Speaker 2: as we dip into states of memory. And I talk

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Speaker 2: about sensational memory and implicit memory in this book, the

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Speaker 2: other person's nervous system, which is not perfect, but it's

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Speaker 2: holding our nervous system so that we can kind of

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Speaker 2: dip into dysregulation, and they're kind of we're keeping us

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Speaker 2: in a contained and the more safety other person is,

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Speaker 2: the more likely our nervous system is to regress and

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Speaker 2: or like neural nets will open and memory will surface

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Speaker 2: because of the safety. It's almost like the treatment itself,

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Speaker 2: the state of safety.

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Speaker 1: What do you say to the people that say, like,

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Speaker 1: you have to be fully healed until you go onto

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Speaker 1: your next relationship. Is that something that you agree with

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Speaker 1: or because I always look at it, I'm like, who

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Speaker 1: is fully healed?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: Like there's going to be things that come up or

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Speaker 1: trigger or thought. I don't know, So I'm just curious

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Speaker 1: what your stance on that is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I talk about it and safe. I

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Speaker 2: actually took a couple of years off myself from dating.

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Speaker 2: But there's no rule. There's like there's no rule. But

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Speaker 2: I think some people struggle because they jump from relationship

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Speaker 2: to relationship and they don't process their part or their

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Speaker 2: nervous system stays in cycles of chaos and turbulence, and

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Speaker 2: then your nervous system never has a chance to get

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Speaker 2: to peace and steadiness and you jump into another like

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Speaker 2: honeymoon phase and you're not really like growing or evolving.

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Speaker 2: But having said that, many people need to do that

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Speaker 2: to survive because a lot of people unconsciously can't be alone.

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Speaker 2: And so I don't ever judge people. There's no one

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Speaker 2: shoe fits all, there's no you should do this, you

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Speaker 2: should do that. Like we adapt and we do the

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Speaker 2: best that we can. And sometimes taking a break and

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Speaker 2: getting your nerves, especially if it was a turbulent relationship,

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Speaker 2: getting your nervous system to register that safety, calm, peace,

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Speaker 2: that's when your work comes out even more is what

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Speaker 2: we're looking for. And I think if you jump from

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Speaker 2: one to the next, you run the risk of like

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Speaker 2: just rolling in the patterns and kind of repeating the

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Speaker 2: same thing.

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Speaker 3: Got it interesting, really interesting. So I've got a question.

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Speaker 3: If you've got someone who is avoidant, and you get

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Speaker 3: someone who's a people pleaser, how do they how do

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Speaker 3: you get the ento a point where they put their

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Speaker 3: own health and their own needs for things in front

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Speaker 3: of in front of others.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think a wound and people tend to put

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Speaker 2: their needs or do they? I think anxious people tend to.

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Speaker 2: So that comes down to like anxious people or the

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Speaker 2: adaptation is they leave their body and they regulate their

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Speaker 2: primary caregivers. So the adaptation is that if I can

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Speaker 2: take care of you, your nervous system, your needs, I

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Speaker 2: can stay close. Okay. So that's just how they brilliantly

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Speaker 2: stayed in connection. Was that I, you know, I could

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Speaker 2: tell you what my dog needs more than what I

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Speaker 2: need because I'm wired to understand what's going on in

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Speaker 2: the room, because that's what my nervous system needed to

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Speaker 2: do in order to stay connected to my mom. We're

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Speaker 2: avoiding people. It's not that they're selfish, but they learn

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Speaker 2: not to depending on other people. So they're usually very

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Speaker 2: aware of their own means and usually have no problem

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Speaker 2: trying to take care.

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Speaker 3: Of them not smiling. I think, I think I become

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I think those are possible. I'm a

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Speaker 3: hybrid of both because I'm there's definitely a huge part

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Speaker 3: of me that is a people please and I want

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Speaker 3: to keep the peace and I want to make sure

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Speaker 3: everyone is okay ahead of myself. But I think in conflict,

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Speaker 3: I'm avoidant and I tend to I tend to try

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Speaker 3: and escape.

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Speaker 2: And I talk about in safe the wheel of attachment

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Speaker 2: and that we embed many different ways of like relating

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Speaker 2: and in different situations, we'll probably go back to our

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Speaker 2: childhood home and notice dad, my mom was anxious, and

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Speaker 2: I internalize some of this. My dad was a little

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Speaker 2: bit of avoidant. When conflict showed up in my home,

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Speaker 2: it was scary. It was never worked through. So there's

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Speaker 2: a part of me that retreats when I feel conflict

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Speaker 2: coming up. So it's so nuanced, and it's so much

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Speaker 2: more layered than like I'm anxiously attached, says the person

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Speaker 2: who wrote book on it. So safe really is like

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Speaker 2: a deep dive into like the nuances of like understanding

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Speaker 2: all these patterns.

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Speaker 1: Is it almost like because when you're saying that, it's

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Speaker 1: almost like we can, with whatever we're going through in

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Speaker 1: that moment, almost tap into every single one, almost like

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Speaker 1: the love languages, where it's we have I have, you know,

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Speaker 1: my list of my love languages, but it has it

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Speaker 1: changes at times of but I mean, at the core,

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Speaker 1: it is what it is. But there are moments where

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Speaker 1: the you know, the other ones might I might want

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Speaker 1: acts of service more than something else. So I'm curious

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Speaker 1: it kind of from what you just said, it makes

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Speaker 1: me think that maybe at our core were one, but

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Speaker 1: the other ones kind of come into from conflict or

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Speaker 1: with what we're going through. Did I Did I hear

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Speaker 1: that right? Or no?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I mean like I talk about having like disorganized

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Speaker 2: which what you call fearful pockets in the book, But

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Speaker 2: those pockets of fear and nowhere to orient to would

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Speaker 2: not have surface for me had I not experienced that

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Speaker 2: earlier on. So if I had a more secure base

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Speaker 2: and didn't get a lot have moments of disorganization when

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Speaker 2: I'm in a relationship and something happens, I'm not going

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Speaker 2: to have a disorganizations show up in my system because

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Speaker 2: I never experienced it before. So you have to have

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Speaker 2: the experience of it in order for it to wake

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Speaker 2: up in relationship.

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Speaker 1: What is one practice from Safe that listeners can take

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Speaker 1: today to help them start feeling unstuck or lonely or overwhelmed.

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Speaker 2: I guess well, I talk about internalizing anchors, So internalizing

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Speaker 2: security from either our past, like our childhood, we can

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Speaker 2: resource people, places, animals that made us feel safe and

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Speaker 2: also resourcing who in our life makes us feel safe

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Speaker 2: now and has more of a ventral state of safety,

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Speaker 2: and how to internalize that through the felt sense. So

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Speaker 2: there are somatic practices in Safe that help you cultivate

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Speaker 2: that in your body and hopefully start to reorient to

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Speaker 2: finding more of that in your life.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense. That was great. I mean I always

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Speaker 1: love having you on, and you know, I appreciate everything

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Speaker 1: that you do and bringing awareness to all of this

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Speaker 1: because I know it'll help not only people personally but

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Speaker 1: also relationally. So as always, thank you for coming on,

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Speaker 1: and everyone grab a book Safe, An Attachment Informed Guide

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Speaker 1: to building more Secure Relationships.

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Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me