WEBVTT - #385 Jason Flom with Al Cleveland 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.120 We initially released Al Cleveland's story in May twenty twenty one, 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:04.960 but before we get to that, we had a chance 0:00:05.000 --> 0:00:06.800 to sit down with the man at the twenty twenty 0:00:06.800 --> 0:00:10.680 three Innocence Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona. It's a gathering 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.560 of the innocence community from all across the country and 0:00:13.600 --> 0:00:14.560 I look forward to it so. 0:00:14.600 --> 0:00:15.319 Much every year. 0:00:15.480 --> 0:00:18.200 It's so great to see what our old friends are 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.800 doing at Al Cleveland has always been an artist at 0:00:21.840 --> 0:00:25.400 heart and in practice, and before his wrongful conviction, he 0:00:25.480 --> 0:00:26.920 did want to get this. He did one of his 0:00:26.920 --> 0:00:30.800 first murals ever for ll cool J. Yeah, back when 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:34.760 they grew up together in Queens. Well, now Al's continuing 0:00:34.800 --> 0:00:37.400 that work and well, you know what, I'm gonna let 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:39.960 him tell you. Now, what are you up to these days? 0:00:40.000 --> 0:00:46.640 From painting customized portraits on wood natural canvases, something unique, niche, 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.479 But people seem to like it. 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:51.000 I like it. I mean, I've seen some of your 0:00:51.040 --> 0:00:53.440 work and it's I don't even know. I literally I 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:55.600 haven't the faintest idea how you do what you do, 0:00:55.680 --> 0:00:56.960 but you do it with love. 0:00:57.040 --> 0:01:01.000 You can go to Clevecoasstudios dot com. That's my website 0:01:01.120 --> 0:01:02.200 and I do murals too. 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:04.280 Now what else? Tell us anything else that's going on 0:01:04.319 --> 0:01:05.840 in your life right now besides the art. 0:01:05.959 --> 0:01:09.080 Yeah, So two brief things. I work for this nonprofit 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:11.760 that gives jobs to guys coming out of prison. So 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:14.560 I'm like a site supervisor, make sure they're doing the 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.560 right thing, unloading the trucks, blah blah blah. And it 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:21.480 puts money in their pockets immediately every day, kind of 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:24.160 helps them with that transition. It's called a Center for 0:01:24.280 --> 0:01:28.679 Employment Opportunities. That's one thing. But I also invested in 0:01:28.720 --> 0:01:31.240 this little gadget here. I don't know if you've seen online. 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:35.560 It's called love Handles, and it's a phone grip kind 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:37.400 of so you don't drop your phone, use it as 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:41.440 a kickstand. Wow both ways. And it's magnetic. This is 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:42.200 not metal, man. 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:46.679 Wow, look at that. And now here's the episode as 0:01:46.720 --> 0:01:52.320 it originally aired back in May twenty one. In the 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.080 late eighties and early nineties, the crack epidemic was in 0:01:55.240 --> 0:01:58.720 full swing in many parts of the country, including Lorain, Ohio, 0:01:58.800 --> 0:02:01.360 where Sunset Pull Upard was known as the place to 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.000 buy and smoke crack without being hassled by the authorities. 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:09.040 The infamously corrupt Lorraine police department had a relationship with 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:12.480 a drug dealer addict and a notorious informant named William 0:02:12.520 --> 0:02:15.600 Avery Senior, who ran the scene on Sunset Boulevard and 0:02:15.720 --> 0:02:19.520 he didn't appreciate New Yorkers encroaching on his turf. On 0:02:19.600 --> 0:02:23.280 August eighth, nineteen ninety one, the bodies of Marsha Blakeley 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:26.959 and Floyd Epps were discovered separately. The tire marks on 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:29.480 their heads were at least in part to blame for 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:33.000 their deaths. After the cases went cold, two thousand dollars 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.360 reward drew the attention of William Avery Senior, who brought 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:40.040 in his teenage son to falsely accuse four men from 0:02:40.120 --> 0:02:44.480 New York, including Al Cleveland. The fact that al Cleveland 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:46.480 was in New York at the time of the murder 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:49.720 and that Avery Junior recanted his statement at the first 0:02:49.760 --> 0:02:53.720 of the four trials did not stop Prosecutor Jonathan Rosenbaum 0:02:53.800 --> 0:02:57.360 from going ahead with all four of these sham trials. 0:02:57.639 --> 0:03:01.520 The Ohio criminal legal system continued mostly ignored William Avery 0:03:01.600 --> 0:03:06.360 Junior's recantations for twenty five long years, leaving parole as 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:11.360 Al Cleveland's only Avenue for Relief. This is Wrongful Conviction 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:28.120 with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:31.560 That's me, and today you're going to hear a story 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:36.640 that defies description. I'm going to first of all, introduce 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:39.440 first Jennifer Passion VERSI around. It's been on the show 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:43.040 before as a deputy director of the Ohio Innocence Project. Jennifer, 0:03:43.080 --> 0:03:44.440 welcome back to Wrongful Conviction. 0:03:44.840 --> 0:03:46.000 Thank you, it's good to be back. 0:03:46.240 --> 0:03:50.200 And Al Cleveland. Al, I'm just going to say this. 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:54.160 Al has lived about seven or eight lifetimes so far, 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:58.400 and he survived twenty five years in prison for a 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.080 gruesome double murder that happened in Ohio while he was 0:04:02.120 --> 0:04:06.480 in Queens, New York. That's just the beginning. So without 0:04:06.520 --> 0:04:09.240 further ado, Al Cleveland, I'm so happy you're here. I'm 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:11.080 sorry you have to be here, but I'm happier here. 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.320 Hey, I'm here, man, I'm with Jason plump. You got 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.000 to realize, Jason, like, I'm fresh home, Like I've just 0:04:17.080 --> 0:04:19.520 been home maybe five months, and I sat on the 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.120 rack visualizing this. So here we are, man, I'm excited, 0:04:23.160 --> 0:04:25.159 I'm pumped up, and thank you for doing this, Thank 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:25.800 you for doing this. 0:04:26.320 --> 0:04:27.719 I don't ever know what to say. That means, that 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:30.160 means more to me than you couldn't even know. And 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:34.280 so al going back to the beginning, you grew up 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.760 such a fascinating story. You were a hip hop artist, 0:04:38.400 --> 0:04:40.240 and not only that, but you were very close friends 0:04:40.279 --> 0:04:43.960 with ll cool J back in Hollis Queens, Yes. 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.080 Sir at that. Yeah, so he grew up right around 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.280 the corner from me. So we were always in the basement, 0:04:50.720 --> 0:04:54.520 you know, making mixtapes and making songs, and like I 0:04:54.640 --> 0:04:59.080 seen his assent from the basement to you know, a 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:01.840 national stage. You know, used to go with him on tour, 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:04.480 like if he was in any of the surrounding states, 0:05:04.960 --> 0:05:07.680 we would get in the vent and go wherever he 0:05:07.880 --> 0:05:11.760 was and get backstage passes and you know, just have 0:05:12.000 --> 0:05:14.279 tons of fun. It was just tons of fun seeing 0:05:14.320 --> 0:05:14.920 that rise. 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:18.040 Yeah, you witnessed literally the birth of a legend. And 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.480 here's your dear friend. I mean that rumor has it 0:05:20.520 --> 0:05:22.680 that you actually painted his room. 0:05:22.960 --> 0:05:26.080 I mean so crazy, I did, I did, I did, 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:28.240 And he owes me thirty bucks still for. 0:05:28.320 --> 0:05:31.800 It, Oh my god, with interest. That's incredible. In his 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.440 nineteen ninety eight book I Make My Own Rules. Ell 0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.840 actually shouts you out and credits your artwork actually as 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:41.080 an early inspiration of his. So that's one. Okay, that's 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:44.640 just one. You ain't hurt nothing yet, stick with us, okay. 0:05:44.960 --> 0:05:48.359 So another childhood friend of yours is Damon John, and 0:05:48.400 --> 0:05:52.120 this I think highlights how crazy and random all this 0:05:52.480 --> 0:05:55.200 shit is, because I think it's fair to say you 0:05:55.279 --> 0:05:58.520 all had the same potential, but the system grabs you 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:03.919 and those guys on to become success stories while you 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:06.720 were being held captained by the state for a crime 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:08.840 you didn't commit. And for those of you who don't know, 0:06:08.960 --> 0:06:11.840 Damon John is the founder and CEO of Fubu. So 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:13.800 tell us about Damon just quickly and how you come 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:14.839 to know him in the beginning. 0:06:15.080 --> 0:06:17.119 Oh man, me and Damon we went to the same 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:21.159 Catholic school together in our neighborhood. From maybe second or 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:24.120 third grade. All the way up. We go on adventures, 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:27.040 bike rides, camping with my dad. That was my guy. 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.800 I wrote a book about it, actually, a little children's book. 0:06:29.640 --> 0:06:31.680 What don't you Do? I feel like you Okay, but 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.000 we're going to get into that later. So to set 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:37.279 the stage, We're back in the eighties and early nineties. 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:42.040 The crack epidemic was in full swing, and you were 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:46.839 now going back and forth to Northeast Ohio. Right, it 0:06:46.880 --> 0:06:48.919 seems so random. Why would a kid from Queen's end 0:06:49.000 --> 0:06:50.120 up in Loren, Ohio. 0:06:50.480 --> 0:06:52.800 All Right, So, since I'm talking to you, Flam and 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:55.159 you got experience in the music business, I want to 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:57.640 just go back a little bit to help you and 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:01.280 help everybody understand. So late eighties, my sister gets killed 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:04.760 by some skinheads in Detroit, and it was a big thing. 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:09.640 My mom was protesting, but me, I internalized this thing 0:07:09.720 --> 0:07:12.720 and just kind of like went into my art. And 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.520 at the time, I was doing graffiti and you know 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.920 art on that level, trying to get into galleries and 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:21.560 trying to make my way, but it wasn't happening. So 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:24.920 I started promoting parties, doing shows. Ran into a guy 0:07:25.120 --> 0:07:27.240 who had a studio. We started going to the studio. 0:07:27.280 --> 0:07:29.400 I found out, Hey, I got some talent, I can rap, 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:31.560 I can do this, I seen ll do it. Let 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:33.920 me take this route. So we started going to the 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:37.360 studio and making songs, and we started forming a vision 0:07:37.440 --> 0:07:40.160 of what we wanted to do. But the problem was 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:42.760 Jason back then. You know, you had to get records 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:44.960 pressed up, you had to get a song mastered, you 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:46.680 had to go through all these steps, and I didn't 0:07:46.680 --> 0:07:48.600 have the money for that. At every stage, we kept 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:54.080 finding ourselves broke. So ninety ninety one, a friend of 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.800 mine gets in touch with me. He had left New 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.760 York to go to Ohio with a few other dudes, 0:07:59.760 --> 0:08:03.160 and they were into the drug scene, low level, but 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.520 he was incarcerated and he asked me to help him 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.080 with the bond money. At the time, I didn't have it. 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:10.720 I only had my rent money. So he enticed me 0:08:10.800 --> 0:08:12.960 a little more and told me he would double my money. 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:14.840 Just come on out, give him a few days and 0:08:14.840 --> 0:08:17.120 he would have the money back for me. And at 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.560 the time, I wanted to explore the music scene out here. 0:08:19.640 --> 0:08:21.440 I said, you know what the heck man and I 0:08:21.480 --> 0:08:23.760 did it. I sent him the money came out here. 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:26.800 That's how I wound up out here. He took me 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:29.360 to a project. You know, he's showing me how he 0:08:29.400 --> 0:08:32.560 does his thing. You know, gave me the little package 0:08:32.559 --> 0:08:36.480 to hold. Police comes they chase him, arrest him. I 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:38.840 have the little thing I dished, a little thing I 0:08:38.880 --> 0:08:41.640 wound up meeting some guys, went to a guy's house 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:44.360 who wound up being the guy who wound up setting 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:46.800 us up. But I went to his house. He asked 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.040 me if I had anything, and I'm like, I kind 0:08:49.040 --> 0:08:51.040 of do. He asked me if I'm from New York, 0:08:51.080 --> 0:08:52.880 do I know my co defending. I'm like, yeah, I 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.199 know him. Yeah. He's like, if you got something, I 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:57.840 can sell it. So I went and retrieved this stuff. 0:08:57.960 --> 0:08:59.760 You started breaking it down with him. I didn't even 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:03.280 know the prices were haggling, and he takes what he 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.800 buys from me, goes right out into the street and 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:09.840 he's stopping cars like he's a traffic controller selling his thing. 0:09:10.080 --> 0:09:12.400 And maybe an hour and a half later, the whole 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:14.640 little bag of stuff I had was, it was gone. 0:09:14.840 --> 0:09:17.080 I had about twenty two hundred dollars in my pocket 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.400 For the next thirty to forty days, I just went 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:22.360 on a mission to get my startup capital. So, I mean, 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:24.440 I know it was wrong, but that was I had 0:09:24.440 --> 0:09:25.600 a vision. I had a vision. 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:28.640 Jason, and I can't leave out the fact that when 0:09:28.679 --> 0:09:31.600 you look at the history of hip hop music, there's 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:35.400 so many artists, legendary artists, who grew up the same 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:37.679 way you did. Some of them from the same area 0:09:37.720 --> 0:09:40.280 you came from and ended up in the crack game 0:09:40.360 --> 0:09:42.520 because that was the option that was available at the time, 0:09:42.760 --> 0:09:44.520 like you said, to get startup capital or whatever it 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.280 may be, and just by fate, they didn't get arrested. 0:09:49.280 --> 0:09:51.000 And many people know the names I mean, because these 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:52.840 people are not they're not secretive about it. When I 0:09:52.840 --> 0:09:54.839 had Meek Bill on the podcast and I asked him 0:09:54.840 --> 0:09:57.439 this question, how many people he met in prison deed 0:09:57.480 --> 0:09:59.120 were as talented as he is, and he said he 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:00.320 couldn't even count. 0:10:00.600 --> 0:10:01.040 How many. 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:03.640 You know, I've met so many guys in there, Jason, 0:10:03.720 --> 0:10:06.480 who the visionaries. You know, they're the bread winners and 0:10:06.520 --> 0:10:08.680 their families. And I just want to make it clear. 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:11.520 I just want to make sure I share this message 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:13.680 that if you do have a dream, if you do 0:10:13.760 --> 0:10:16.040 have a vision, try to find out how to do 0:10:16.080 --> 0:10:18.040 a business plan, try to find out how to go 0:10:18.160 --> 0:10:21.920 to a bank or ask people family members to invest 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:26.000 in your dream instead of taking that route and putting 0:10:26.000 --> 0:10:28.960 yourself at risk to come to the penitentiary, because it's 0:10:29.080 --> 0:10:34.400 full of guys with dreams that fall through. So I 0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:35.280 just wanted to share that. 0:10:35.360 --> 0:10:37.840 No, I'm glad you did. And Jennifer, I want to 0:10:37.920 --> 0:10:41.200 talk about the Lorraine Police Department because of course Loraine, 0:10:41.200 --> 0:10:43.320 Ohio was where I was spending his time in those days, 0:10:43.320 --> 0:10:46.680 and they were known for sexual abuse and brutality, which 0:10:46.720 --> 0:10:49.280 is sadly a problem that exists to this day and 0:10:49.600 --> 0:10:52.360 so many different police departments around this country. Can you 0:10:52.520 --> 0:10:54.840 paint the picture of what was going on back then 0:10:55.240 --> 0:10:59.880 and there and what was the deal with their unsavory 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.760 relationship with this shady character William Avery sor. 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.800 Yeah, there was a huge crack problem. Similar to lots 0:11:06.840 --> 0:11:09.640 of other areas in the country. The police had people 0:11:10.200 --> 0:11:14.880 like William Avery Senior, who, at least according to Avery, 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:17.880 could kind of do some favors as a CI and 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:20.480 then be left alone and do whatever he wanted. So 0:11:20.520 --> 0:11:23.760 there seemed to be sort of this unofficial arrangement between 0:11:23.800 --> 0:11:25.680 the cops and some of the people there. So it 0:11:25.679 --> 0:11:27.800 seemed to me that when folks from New York came 0:11:27.800 --> 0:11:30.760 in and started sort of messing with that system, it 0:11:30.800 --> 0:11:33.640 did not go over well with either the residents or 0:11:33.640 --> 0:11:34.160 the police. 0:11:34.520 --> 0:11:37.840 You had just gotten involved in this business, so to speak. 0:11:37.920 --> 0:11:41.320 Al were you aware of what the Lorraine police department 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:41.719 was up. 0:11:41.720 --> 0:11:46.199 To No, I wasn't. Actually I found out years later 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.760 through our investigation that one of my codefendants was the 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:51.600 one who invited me out here. He was kind of 0:11:51.640 --> 0:11:54.079 like a target. We actually found a picture with him 0:11:54.080 --> 0:11:56.720 with a bullseye in their police files like here, I 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.120 am just waltz right into Lorraine. I had no idea. 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.440 You're sitting duck. Let's face it. And as part of 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:06.000 the story centers around a guy named William Avery Senior, 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:09.839 who was a prolific paid informant at the time, and 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:13.360 he received special treatment as informants do in exchange for 0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:17.240 his help. He lived on Sunset Boulevard in Lorain, Ohio 0:12:17.280 --> 0:12:20.840 with his son, William Avery Junior, who he had introduced 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.480 to crack when the kid was just fourteen years old, 0:12:23.480 --> 0:12:26.280 and this had become this sort of neighborhood spot where 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:28.880 people would come to smoke crack and the police looked 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:30.719 the other way, of course, because he was helping them 0:12:30.760 --> 0:12:33.400 out while lying for them on cases, as well as 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.120 maybe providing accurate information once in a while. Have no idea. 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:37.440 And then there was Marsha Blakeley. 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:40.319 Well, Marsha Blakely was the murder victim. And she was 0:12:40.360 --> 0:12:43.160 a young woman who was addicted to crack and other 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:47.079 drugs and was known on the streets for turning tricks 0:12:47.280 --> 0:12:51.319 selling stolen goods to feed her addiction. She was just 0:12:51.400 --> 0:12:54.760 a user who, for reasons that I still don't quite understand, 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:58.000 ended up brutally murdered in this whole situation. 0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:01.800 Yeah, so she and a guy named Floyd Epps turned 0:13:01.840 --> 0:13:04.400 up dead. And this is, you know, one of the 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:09.080 most brutal crimes I've ever heard of. On August eighth, 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.240 nineteen eighty one, at nine eighteen in the morning, Marsha 0:13:11.320 --> 0:13:13.880 Blakeley's body was discovered in an alley behind the West 0:13:13.920 --> 0:13:17.160 Coast Shopping Center in the rain. She had twenty five 0:13:17.200 --> 0:13:20.240 stab wounds, fractured ribs, a broken neck, a slit throat, 0:13:20.360 --> 0:13:23.719 and torture wounds on her neck and head. And if 0:13:23.760 --> 0:13:25.760 that wasn't enough, her head had been run over by 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.079 a car twice now. Earlier that same day, at one 0:13:29.160 --> 0:13:33.000 twenty five am, Floyd Epps's body was found nearby, and 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:35.120 his head had also been run over by a car. 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:37.760 So this is bizarre because police believed that the murders 0:13:37.800 --> 0:13:39.800 were related to anyone would of course, I mean, you 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.520 don't hear stories too often people being the heads run 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.280 over by cars, thankfully, But no arrests were made in 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.480 the Epps killing, and no arrests have been made to 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:53.880 this date, which is the whole separate problem. But nothing 0:13:53.960 --> 0:13:56.760 was happening with these cases. The cops offered a two 0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.120 thousand dollars reward for information, So now we go all 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.840 the way to over a month later, September tenth, William 0:14:01.880 --> 0:14:06.880 Avery said he had information, and they told him that 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:09.400 the reward would only be given to someone with first 0:14:09.400 --> 0:14:10.160 hand knowledge. 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.839 Yeah, so William Avery Sr. Takes his son, William Avery 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.080 Junior in the next day to meet with the cops 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.440 to say what, you know, he knew about the crime, 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:22.080 But his story as it was told that day does 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:25.640 not match up to what he eventually said in the trials. 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:28.840 And in addition, it was just a bizarre meeting where 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.080 you know, the cops are interviewing William Avery Junior about 0:14:32.120 --> 0:14:35.960 supposedly witnessing this burter, and yet his father sat in 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:39.240 on the entire interview and said like, yeah, I'm here 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.120 to remind him of the things that he forgot, which 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.200 just raised all kinds of red flags. But yet that's 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:47.160 that's what they went with. 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.280 So when Avery Senior and Junior went to the police, 0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:53.800 Junior implicated four individuals in the death of Marshall Blakely. 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:57.920 That four men were Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis, John Edwards, 0:14:57.920 --> 0:15:01.480 and Alfred Cleveland, men they he claimed were drug dealers 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.720 from New York. Now. Avery Junior went on to say 0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:06.320 that he owed you Al money and in order to 0:15:06.360 --> 0:15:09.560 pay off the debt. Avery Junior claimed that Al took 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:13.200 him to Epps's apartment where Marcia Blakely was and that 0:15:13.320 --> 0:15:16.720 Al told him to assault her. Avery Junior claimed to 0:15:16.760 --> 0:15:20.160 refuse because he knew Marcia Blakeley. So, according to this 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.640 crazy tale from Avery Junior, the three other men assaulted 0:15:23.640 --> 0:15:26.840 her for twenty minutes while he and Al watched. Avery 0:15:26.920 --> 0:15:29.840 continued on that he went back to his apartment after 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:32.960 the assault, but said that Al came by after and 0:15:33.080 --> 0:15:36.400 told him, quote, we took care of the junkie, We 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:37.720 knocked her off. 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:42.040 And thanks just started rolling from there. Although they never 0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:44.920 really found any other evidence at all implicating these guys. 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:47.040 But yeah, they can't find something that doesn't exist because 0:15:47.040 --> 0:15:49.760 they weren't at that absolutely, So you weren't even in 0:15:49.800 --> 0:15:52.920 fucking Ohio, right, tell us where you were during this 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:54.920 week and how we know that that's really true? 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.160 All right? So, yeah, I was on probation at the time. 0:15:57.200 --> 0:15:59.320 I didn't realize when I was going to try. I 0:15:59.360 --> 0:16:03.400 wasn't sure because it was like four years later that 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.040 that was the day that I went to my probation officer, 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:08.760 but I knew. I went back to New York to 0:16:08.800 --> 0:16:11.880 see my probation officer and I was in New York 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:14.560 with Damon John, who had a van business at the time. 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:16.920 I went to buy a TV and I needed him 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:19.400 to come bring the TV to my house. And this 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:21.560 is all you know, the seventh, the eighth, when these 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:23.640 people were killed, and when I was going to trial, 0:16:23.800 --> 0:16:26.320 I had the receipt for this TV. You know, we 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.479 got those times. You know. He came to trial and prosecuted, 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:31.720 try to dog them out like he was some young punk. 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:35.040 You know, he tried to discredit him and it was crazy. 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:37.200 I Mean, the state acknowledged that he had seen the 0:16:37.200 --> 0:16:40.360 probation officer in New York on August seventh, but they 0:16:40.480 --> 0:16:44.120 just said, well, he must have decided he was going 0:16:44.200 --> 0:16:46.600 to either drive or fly to Ohio to come and 0:16:46.600 --> 0:16:49.400 commit this brutal murder against this woman he didn't even know. 0:16:49.680 --> 0:16:51.480 But it was just the word of one person that 0:16:51.640 --> 0:16:51.920 was it. 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.320 So four people were victims of this compromise to say 0:16:55.360 --> 0:16:57.560 the least paid informant and it was a two thousand 0:16:57.560 --> 0:16:59.080 dollars ward and then they paid him again. 0:16:59.360 --> 0:17:01.800 Yeah, he got the two thousand dollars reward for coming 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:05.120 forward initially, which was interesting because the award was listed 0:17:05.200 --> 0:17:08.199 for anyone would get it, leading to an arrest. They 0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:11.400 arrest Lynworth Edwards, one of the co defendants. He gets 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:14.760 the two thousand dollars. They then schedule a deposition of 0:17:14.880 --> 0:17:18.280 William Avery Junior claiming that his life is in danger 0:17:18.440 --> 0:17:21.080 or something, and he gets paid again, and then he 0:17:21.160 --> 0:17:22.760 ends up getting paid more so at the end of 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:24.880 the bowl saga, he ended up getting paid around five 0:17:24.880 --> 0:17:26.560 thousand dollars for his testimony. 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.720 Right, we're talking nineteen ninety one dollars is a lot 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:30.680 more money than it is today. 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:33.320 Yeah, absolutely, to someone who was a crack addict who 0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:35.880 you know, on the stand said he never really had 0:17:35.880 --> 0:17:37.480 a job, so this was his income. 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.359 So Avery Junior changed and recanted his story multiple times 0:17:41.440 --> 0:17:45.200 after the initial interrogation, but his claims anyway were enough 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.880 and the authorities were happy to use them to convict 0:17:49.080 --> 0:17:52.199 four men. Avery Junior was supposed to testify in the 0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:55.280 first trial because guys were tried separately, right, Lynworth Edwards 0:17:55.359 --> 0:17:56.159 was the first trial. 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:00.480 Yes, so at Lynworth Edward's first trial, this was the 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:03.399 first of the four to be tried. Yeah, William Avery 0:18:03.480 --> 0:18:08.439 Junior basically demanded ten thousand dollars to keep given his testimony, 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:11.400 which you know, of course, the prosecutor said, well, no, 0:18:11.480 --> 0:18:14.320 we're not paying you anything. So at this point Avery 0:18:14.400 --> 0:18:18.439 Junior then says, well, I'm not going to testify. Everything 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:22.119 I said before was a lie. So yeah, they end 0:18:22.200 --> 0:18:25.320 up throwing him in jail and charging him with contempt. 0:18:25.359 --> 0:18:28.000 But he later comes back and it's the second trial 0:18:28.040 --> 0:18:32.960 for Lynworth and says, well, the reason I flip flopped 0:18:33.000 --> 0:18:36.520 before was because I was threatened in the jail if 0:18:36.560 --> 0:18:39.879 I went forward with telling what I know about this crime. 0:18:40.320 --> 0:18:42.879 And so that's how they got away with putting on 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.160 his testimony in lynn Were's second trial and then in 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.959 the rest of the defendant's trials. However, what we found 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:55.160 out later years later was that those threats never happened. 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:58.880 We found records showing that Avery Junior, he actually got 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.879 in trouble for making false reports about getting threatened. And 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:04.880 so the whole case was just built on a lie. 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:11.720 Basically a lot of lifes. Well, yes, but and Al 0:19:12.080 --> 0:19:14.960 your trial, you were the third one tried right, and 0:19:15.160 --> 0:19:17.879 your trial lasted six days. 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:23.960 When the jury came in, I turned around to look 0:19:24.000 --> 0:19:33.600 at them, and I saw it was hatred. Bro I 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:39.600 saw a hatred and my mom was there, a couple 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:45.119 of supporters. And when the judge read the verdict, he 0:19:45.200 --> 0:19:49.639 told me that I'm sentenced to life. And I told 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:56.480 him I didn't do it. And the screech when he 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:07.919 said guilty, the screech came a mother's voice. I knew 0:20:08.480 --> 0:20:16.880 it took a party purses part from. All I can 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.280 do is try to turn around comforter like it's gonna 0:20:19.280 --> 0:20:22.160 be okay, It's gonna be all right. 0:20:31.080 --> 0:20:34.880 This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program. 0:20:35.040 --> 0:20:38.560 AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over 0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.400