Speaker 1: We initially released Al Cleveland's story in May twenty twenty one,
Speaker 1: but before we get to that, we had a chance
Speaker 1: to sit down with the man at the twenty twenty
Speaker 1: three Innocence Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona. It's a gathering
Speaker 1: of the innocence community from all across the country and
Speaker 1: I look forward to it so.
Speaker 2: Much every year.
Speaker 1: It's so great to see what our old friends are
Speaker 1: doing at Al Cleveland has always been an artist at
Speaker 1: heart and in practice, and before his wrongful conviction, he
Speaker 1: did want to get this. He did one of his
Speaker 1: first murals ever for ll cool J. Yeah, back when
Speaker 1: they grew up together in Queens. Well, now Al's continuing
Speaker 1: that work and well, you know what, I'm gonna let
Speaker 1: him tell you. Now, what are you up to these days?
Speaker 2: From painting customized portraits on wood natural canvases, something unique, niche,
Speaker 2: But people seem to like it.
Speaker 1: I like it. I mean, I've seen some of your
Speaker 1: work and it's I don't even know. I literally I
Speaker 1: haven't the faintest idea how you do what you do,
Speaker 1: but you do it with love.
Speaker 2: You can go to Clevecoasstudios dot com. That's my website
Speaker 2: and I do murals too.
Speaker 1: Now what else? Tell us anything else that's going on
Speaker 1: in your life right now besides the art.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So two brief things. I work for this nonprofit
Speaker 2: that gives jobs to guys coming out of prison. So
Speaker 2: I'm like a site supervisor, make sure they're doing the
Speaker 2: right thing, unloading the trucks, blah blah blah. And it
Speaker 2: puts money in their pockets immediately every day, kind of
Speaker 2: helps them with that transition. It's called a Center for
Speaker 2: Employment Opportunities. That's one thing. But I also invested in
Speaker 2: this little gadget here. I don't know if you've seen online.
Speaker 2: It's called love Handles, and it's a phone grip kind
Speaker 2: of so you don't drop your phone, use it as
Speaker 2: a kickstand. Wow both ways. And it's magnetic. This is
Speaker 2: not metal, man.
Speaker 1: Wow, look at that. And now here's the episode as
Speaker 1: it originally aired back in May twenty one. In the
Speaker 1: late eighties and early nineties, the crack epidemic was in
Speaker 1: full swing in many parts of the country, including Lorain, Ohio,
Speaker 1: where Sunset Pull Upard was known as the place to
Speaker 1: buy and smoke crack without being hassled by the authorities.
Speaker 1: The infamously corrupt Lorraine police department had a relationship with
Speaker 1: a drug dealer addict and a notorious informant named William
Speaker 1: Avery Senior, who ran the scene on Sunset Boulevard and
Speaker 1: he didn't appreciate New Yorkers encroaching on his turf. On
Speaker 1: August eighth, nineteen ninety one, the bodies of Marsha Blakeley
Speaker 1: and Floyd Epps were discovered separately. The tire marks on
Speaker 1: their heads were at least in part to blame for
Speaker 1: their deaths. After the cases went cold, two thousand dollars
Speaker 1: reward drew the attention of William Avery Senior, who brought
Speaker 1: in his teenage son to falsely accuse four men from
Speaker 1: New York, including Al Cleveland. The fact that al Cleveland
Speaker 1: was in New York at the time of the murder
Speaker 1: and that Avery Junior recanted his statement at the first
Speaker 1: of the four trials did not stop Prosecutor Jonathan Rosenbaum
Speaker 1: from going ahead with all four of these sham trials.
Speaker 1: The Ohio criminal legal system continued mostly ignored William Avery
Speaker 1: Junior's recantations for twenty five long years, leaving parole as
Speaker 1: Al Cleveland's only Avenue for Relief. This is Wrongful Conviction
Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.
Speaker 1: That's me, and today you're going to hear a story
Speaker 1: that defies description. I'm going to first of all, introduce
Speaker 1: first Jennifer Passion VERSI around. It's been on the show
Speaker 1: before as a deputy director of the Ohio Innocence Project. Jennifer,
Speaker 1: welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.
Speaker 3: Thank you, it's good to be back.
Speaker 1: And Al Cleveland. Al, I'm just going to say this.
Speaker 1: Al has lived about seven or eight lifetimes so far,
Speaker 1: and he survived twenty five years in prison for a
Speaker 1: gruesome double murder that happened in Ohio while he was
Speaker 1: in Queens, New York. That's just the beginning. So without
Speaker 1: further ado, Al Cleveland, I'm so happy you're here. I'm
Speaker 1: sorry you have to be here, but I'm happier here.
Speaker 2: Hey, I'm here, man, I'm with Jason plump. You got
Speaker 2: to realize, Jason, like, I'm fresh home, Like I've just
Speaker 2: been home maybe five months, and I sat on the
Speaker 2: rack visualizing this. So here we are, man, I'm excited,
Speaker 2: I'm pumped up, and thank you for doing this, Thank
Speaker 2: you for doing this.
Speaker 1: I don't ever know what to say. That means, that
Speaker 1: means more to me than you couldn't even know. And
Speaker 1: so al going back to the beginning, you grew up
Speaker 1: such a fascinating story. You were a hip hop artist,
Speaker 1: and not only that, but you were very close friends
Speaker 1: with ll cool J back in Hollis Queens, Yes.
Speaker 2: Sir at that. Yeah, so he grew up right around
Speaker 2: the corner from me. So we were always in the basement,
Speaker 2: you know, making mixtapes and making songs, and like I
Speaker 2: seen his assent from the basement to you know, a
Speaker 2: national stage. You know, used to go with him on tour,
Speaker 2: like if he was in any of the surrounding states,
Speaker 2: we would get in the vent and go wherever he
Speaker 2: was and get backstage passes and you know, just have
Speaker 2: tons of fun. It was just tons of fun seeing
Speaker 2: that rise.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you witnessed literally the birth of a legend. And
Speaker 1: here's your dear friend. I mean that rumor has it
Speaker 1: that you actually painted his room.
Speaker 4: I mean so crazy, I did, I did, I did,
Speaker 4: And he owes me thirty bucks still for.
Speaker 1: It, Oh my god, with interest. That's incredible. In his
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight book I Make My Own Rules. Ell
Speaker 1: actually shouts you out and credits your artwork actually as
Speaker 1: an early inspiration of his. So that's one. Okay, that's
Speaker 1: just one. You ain't hurt nothing yet, stick with us, okay.
Speaker 1: So another childhood friend of yours is Damon John, and
Speaker 1: this I think highlights how crazy and random all this
Speaker 1: shit is, because I think it's fair to say you
Speaker 1: all had the same potential, but the system grabs you
Speaker 1: and those guys on to become success stories while you
Speaker 1: were being held captained by the state for a crime
Speaker 1: you didn't commit. And for those of you who don't know,
Speaker 1: Damon John is the founder and CEO of Fubu. So
Speaker 1: tell us about Damon just quickly and how you come
Speaker 1: to know him in the beginning.
Speaker 2: Oh man, me and Damon we went to the same
Speaker 2: Catholic school together in our neighborhood. From maybe second or
Speaker 2: third grade. All the way up. We go on adventures,
Speaker 2: bike rides, camping with my dad. That was my guy.
Speaker 2: I wrote a book about it, actually, a little children's book.
Speaker 1: What don't you Do? I feel like you Okay, but
Speaker 1: we're going to get into that later. So to set
Speaker 1: the stage, We're back in the eighties and early nineties.
Speaker 1: The crack epidemic was in full swing, and you were
Speaker 1: now going back and forth to Northeast Ohio. Right, it
Speaker 1: seems so random. Why would a kid from Queen's end
Speaker 1: up in Loren, Ohio.
Speaker 2: All Right, So, since I'm talking to you, Flam and
Speaker 2: you got experience in the music business, I want to
Speaker 2: just go back a little bit to help you and
Speaker 2: help everybody understand. So late eighties, my sister gets killed
Speaker 2: by some skinheads in Detroit, and it was a big thing.
Speaker 2: My mom was protesting, but me, I internalized this thing
Speaker 2: and just kind of like went into my art. And
Speaker 2: at the time, I was doing graffiti and you know
Speaker 2: art on that level, trying to get into galleries and
Speaker 2: trying to make my way, but it wasn't happening. So
Speaker 2: I started promoting parties, doing shows. Ran into a guy
Speaker 2: who had a studio. We started going to the studio.
Speaker 2: I found out, Hey, I got some talent, I can rap,
Speaker 2: I can do this, I seen ll do it. Let
Speaker 2: me take this route. So we started going to the
Speaker 2: studio and making songs, and we started forming a vision
Speaker 2: of what we wanted to do. But the problem was
Speaker 2: Jason back then. You know, you had to get records
Speaker 2: pressed up, you had to get a song mastered, you
Speaker 2: had to go through all these steps, and I didn't
Speaker 2: have the money for that. At every stage, we kept
Speaker 2: finding ourselves broke. So ninety ninety one, a friend of
Speaker 2: mine gets in touch with me. He had left New
Speaker 2: York to go to Ohio with a few other dudes,
Speaker 2: and they were into the drug scene, low level, but
Speaker 2: he was incarcerated and he asked me to help him
Speaker 2: with the bond money. At the time, I didn't have it.
Speaker 2: I only had my rent money. So he enticed me
Speaker 2: a little more and told me he would double my money.
Speaker 2: Just come on out, give him a few days and
Speaker 2: he would have the money back for me. And at
Speaker 2: the time, I wanted to explore the music scene out here.
Speaker 2: I said, you know what the heck man and I
Speaker 2: did it. I sent him the money came out here.
Speaker 2: That's how I wound up out here. He took me
Speaker 2: to a project. You know, he's showing me how he
Speaker 2: does his thing. You know, gave me the little package
Speaker 2: to hold. Police comes they chase him, arrest him. I
Speaker 2: have the little thing I dished, a little thing I
Speaker 2: wound up meeting some guys, went to a guy's house
Speaker 2: who wound up being the guy who wound up setting
Speaker 2: us up. But I went to his house. He asked
Speaker 2: me if I had anything, and I'm like, I kind
Speaker 2: of do. He asked me if I'm from New York,
Speaker 2: do I know my co defending. I'm like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: know him. Yeah. He's like, if you got something, I
Speaker 2: can sell it. So I went and retrieved this stuff.
Speaker 2: You started breaking it down with him. I didn't even
Speaker 2: know the prices were haggling, and he takes what he
Speaker 2: buys from me, goes right out into the street and
Speaker 2: he's stopping cars like he's a traffic controller selling his thing.
Speaker 2: And maybe an hour and a half later, the whole
Speaker 2: little bag of stuff I had was, it was gone.
Speaker 2: I had about twenty two hundred dollars in my pocket
Speaker 2: For the next thirty to forty days, I just went
Speaker 2: on a mission to get my startup capital. So, I mean,
Speaker 2: I know it was wrong, but that was I had
Speaker 2: a vision. I had a vision.
Speaker 1: Jason, and I can't leave out the fact that when
Speaker 1: you look at the history of hip hop music, there's
Speaker 1: so many artists, legendary artists, who grew up the same
Speaker 1: way you did. Some of them from the same area
Speaker 1: you came from and ended up in the crack game
Speaker 1: because that was the option that was available at the time,
Speaker 1: like you said, to get startup capital or whatever it
Speaker 1: may be, and just by fate, they didn't get arrested.
Speaker 1: And many people know the names I mean, because these
Speaker 1: people are not they're not secretive about it. When I
Speaker 1: had Meek Bill on the podcast and I asked him
Speaker 1: this question, how many people he met in prison deed
Speaker 1: were as talented as he is, and he said he
Speaker 1: couldn't even count.
Speaker 4: How many.
Speaker 2: You know, I've met so many guys in there, Jason,
Speaker 2: who the visionaries. You know, they're the bread winners and
Speaker 2: their families. And I just want to make it clear.
Speaker 2: I just want to make sure I share this message
Speaker 2: that if you do have a dream, if you do
Speaker 2: have a vision, try to find out how to do
Speaker 2: a business plan, try to find out how to go
Speaker 2: to a bank or ask people family members to invest
Speaker 2: in your dream instead of taking that route and putting
Speaker 2: yourself at risk to come to the penitentiary, because it's
Speaker 2: full of guys with dreams that fall through. So I
Speaker 2: just wanted to share that.
Speaker 1: No, I'm glad you did. And Jennifer, I want to
Speaker 1: talk about the Lorraine Police Department because of course Loraine,
Speaker 1: Ohio was where I was spending his time in those days,
Speaker 1: and they were known for sexual abuse and brutality, which
Speaker 1: is sadly a problem that exists to this day and
Speaker 1: so many different police departments around this country. Can you
Speaker 1: paint the picture of what was going on back then
Speaker 1: and there and what was the deal with their unsavory
Speaker 1: relationship with this shady character William Avery sor.
Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a huge crack problem. Similar to lots
Speaker 3: of other areas in the country. The police had people
Speaker 3: like William Avery Senior, who, at least according to Avery,
Speaker 3: could kind of do some favors as a CI and
Speaker 3: then be left alone and do whatever he wanted. So
Speaker 3: there seemed to be sort of this unofficial arrangement between
Speaker 3: the cops and some of the people there. So it
Speaker 3: seemed to me that when folks from New York came
Speaker 3: in and started sort of messing with that system, it
Speaker 3: did not go over well with either the residents or
Speaker 3: the police.
Speaker 1: You had just gotten involved in this business, so to speak.
Speaker 1: Al were you aware of what the Lorraine police department
Speaker 1: was up.
Speaker 2: To No, I wasn't. Actually I found out years later
Speaker 2: through our investigation that one of my codefendants was the
Speaker 2: one who invited me out here. He was kind of
Speaker 2: like a target. We actually found a picture with him
Speaker 2: with a bullseye in their police files like here, I
Speaker 2: am just waltz right into Lorraine. I had no idea.
Speaker 1: You're sitting duck. Let's face it. And as part of
Speaker 1: the story centers around a guy named William Avery Senior,
Speaker 1: who was a prolific paid informant at the time, and
Speaker 1: he received special treatment as informants do in exchange for
Speaker 1: his help. He lived on Sunset Boulevard in Lorain, Ohio
Speaker 1: with his son, William Avery Junior, who he had introduced
Speaker 1: to crack when the kid was just fourteen years old,
Speaker 1: and this had become this sort of neighborhood spot where
Speaker 1: people would come to smoke crack and the police looked
Speaker 1: the other way, of course, because he was helping them
Speaker 1: out while lying for them on cases, as well as
Speaker 1: maybe providing accurate information once in a while. Have no idea.
Speaker 1: And then there was Marsha Blakeley.
Speaker 3: Well, Marsha Blakely was the murder victim. And she was
Speaker 3: a young woman who was addicted to crack and other
Speaker 3: drugs and was known on the streets for turning tricks
Speaker 3: selling stolen goods to feed her addiction. She was just
Speaker 3: a user who, for reasons that I still don't quite understand,
Speaker 3: ended up brutally murdered in this whole situation.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so she and a guy named Floyd Epps turned
Speaker 1: up dead. And this is, you know, one of the
Speaker 1: most brutal crimes I've ever heard of. On August eighth,
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, at nine eighteen in the morning, Marsha
Speaker 1: Blakeley's body was discovered in an alley behind the West
Speaker 1: Coast Shopping Center in the rain. She had twenty five
Speaker 1: stab wounds, fractured ribs, a broken neck, a slit throat,
Speaker 1: and torture wounds on her neck and head. And if
Speaker 1: that wasn't enough, her head had been run over by
Speaker 1: a car twice now. Earlier that same day, at one
Speaker 1: twenty five am, Floyd Epps's body was found nearby, and
Speaker 1: his head had also been run over by a car.
Speaker 1: So this is bizarre because police believed that the murders
Speaker 1: were related to anyone would of course, I mean, you
Speaker 1: don't hear stories too often people being the heads run
Speaker 1: over by cars, thankfully, But no arrests were made in
Speaker 1: the Epps killing, and no arrests have been made to
Speaker 1: this date, which is the whole separate problem. But nothing
Speaker 1: was happening with these cases. The cops offered a two
Speaker 1: thousand dollars reward for information, So now we go all
Speaker 1: the way to over a month later, September tenth, William
Speaker 1: Avery said he had information, and they told him that
Speaker 1: the reward would only be given to someone with first
Speaker 1: hand knowledge.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so William Avery Sr. Takes his son, William Avery
Speaker 3: Junior in the next day to meet with the cops
Speaker 3: to say what, you know, he knew about the crime,
Speaker 3: But his story as it was told that day does
Speaker 3: not match up to what he eventually said in the trials.
Speaker 3: And in addition, it was just a bizarre meeting where
Speaker 3: you know, the cops are interviewing William Avery Junior about
Speaker 3: supposedly witnessing this burter, and yet his father sat in
Speaker 3: on the entire interview and said like, yeah, I'm here
Speaker 3: to remind him of the things that he forgot, which
Speaker 3: just raised all kinds of red flags. But yet that's
Speaker 3: that's what they went with.
Speaker 1: So when Avery Senior and Junior went to the police,
Speaker 1: Junior implicated four individuals in the death of Marshall Blakely.
Speaker 1: That four men were Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis, John Edwards,
Speaker 1: and Alfred Cleveland, men they he claimed were drug dealers
Speaker 1: from New York. Now. Avery Junior went on to say
Speaker 1: that he owed you Al money and in order to
Speaker 1: pay off the debt. Avery Junior claimed that Al took
Speaker 1: him to Epps's apartment where Marcia Blakely was and that
Speaker 1: Al told him to assault her. Avery Junior claimed to
Speaker 1: refuse because he knew Marcia Blakeley. So, according to this
Speaker 1: crazy tale from Avery Junior, the three other men assaulted
Speaker 1: her for twenty minutes while he and Al watched. Avery
Speaker 1: continued on that he went back to his apartment after
Speaker 1: the assault, but said that Al came by after and
Speaker 1: told him, quote, we took care of the junkie, We
Speaker 1: knocked her off.
Speaker 3: And thanks just started rolling from there. Although they never
Speaker 3: really found any other evidence at all implicating these guys.
Speaker 1: But yeah, they can't find something that doesn't exist because
Speaker 1: they weren't at that absolutely, So you weren't even in
Speaker 1: fucking Ohio, right, tell us where you were during this
Speaker 1: week and how we know that that's really true?
Speaker 2: All right? So, yeah, I was on probation at the time.
Speaker 2: I didn't realize when I was going to try. I
Speaker 2: wasn't sure because it was like four years later that
Speaker 2: that was the day that I went to my probation officer,
Speaker 2: but I knew. I went back to New York to
Speaker 2: see my probation officer and I was in New York
Speaker 2: with Damon John, who had a van business at the time.
Speaker 2: I went to buy a TV and I needed him
Speaker 2: to come bring the TV to my house. And this
Speaker 2: is all you know, the seventh, the eighth, when these
Speaker 2: people were killed, and when I was going to trial,
Speaker 2: I had the receipt for this TV. You know, we
Speaker 2: got those times. You know. He came to trial and prosecuted,
Speaker 2: try to dog them out like he was some young punk.
Speaker 2: You know, he tried to discredit him and it was crazy.
Speaker 3: I Mean, the state acknowledged that he had seen the
Speaker 3: probation officer in New York on August seventh, but they
Speaker 3: just said, well, he must have decided he was going
Speaker 3: to either drive or fly to Ohio to come and
Speaker 3: commit this brutal murder against this woman he didn't even know.
Speaker 3: But it was just the word of one person that
Speaker 3: was it.
Speaker 1: So four people were victims of this compromise to say
Speaker 1: the least paid informant and it was a two thousand
Speaker 1: dollars ward and then they paid him again.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he got the two thousand dollars reward for coming
Speaker 3: forward initially, which was interesting because the award was listed
Speaker 3: for anyone would get it, leading to an arrest. They
Speaker 3: arrest Lynworth Edwards, one of the co defendants. He gets
Speaker 3: the two thousand dollars. They then schedule a deposition of
Speaker 3: William Avery Junior claiming that his life is in danger
Speaker 3: or something, and he gets paid again, and then he
Speaker 3: ends up getting paid more so at the end of
Speaker 3: the bowl saga, he ended up getting paid around five
Speaker 3: thousand dollars for his testimony.
Speaker 1: Right, we're talking nineteen ninety one dollars is a lot
Speaker 1: more money than it is today.
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, to someone who was a crack addict who
Speaker 3: you know, on the stand said he never really had
Speaker 3: a job, so this was his income.
Speaker 1: So Avery Junior changed and recanted his story multiple times
Speaker 1: after the initial interrogation, but his claims anyway were enough
Speaker 1: and the authorities were happy to use them to convict
Speaker 1: four men. Avery Junior was supposed to testify in the
Speaker 1: first trial because guys were tried separately, right, Lynworth Edwards
Speaker 1: was the first trial.
Speaker 3: Yes, so at Lynworth Edward's first trial, this was the
Speaker 3: first of the four to be tried. Yeah, William Avery
Speaker 3: Junior basically demanded ten thousand dollars to keep given his testimony,
Speaker 3: which you know, of course, the prosecutor said, well, no,
Speaker 3: we're not paying you anything. So at this point Avery
Speaker 3: Junior then says, well, I'm not going to testify. Everything
Speaker 3: I said before was a lie. So yeah, they end
Speaker 3: up throwing him in jail and charging him with contempt.
Speaker 3: But he later comes back and it's the second trial
Speaker 3: for Lynworth and says, well, the reason I flip flopped
Speaker 3: before was because I was threatened in the jail if
Speaker 3: I went forward with telling what I know about this crime.
Speaker 3: And so that's how they got away with putting on
Speaker 3: his testimony in lynn Were's second trial and then in
Speaker 3: the rest of the defendant's trials. However, what we found
Speaker 3: out later years later was that those threats never happened.
Speaker 3: We found records showing that Avery Junior, he actually got
Speaker 3: in trouble for making false reports about getting threatened. And
Speaker 3: so the whole case was just built on a lie.
Speaker 1: Basically a lot of lifes. Well, yes, but and Al
Speaker 1: your trial, you were the third one tried right, and
Speaker 1: your trial lasted six days.
Speaker 2: When the jury came in, I turned around to look
Speaker 2: at them, and I saw it was hatred. Bro I
Speaker 2: saw a hatred and my mom was there, a couple
Speaker 2: of supporters. And when the judge read the verdict, he
Speaker 2: told me that I'm sentenced to life. And I told
Speaker 2: him I didn't do it. And the screech when he
Speaker 2: said guilty, the screech came a mother's voice. I knew
Speaker 2: it took a party purses part from. All I can
Speaker 2: do is try to turn around comforter like it's gonna
Speaker 2: be okay, It's gonna be all right.
Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program.
Speaker 1: AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over
Speaker 1: a decade, the AIG pro Bono Program has provided thousands
Speaker 1: of hours of ree, legal services and other support to
Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the
Speaker 1: program added criminal and social justice reform as a key
Speaker 1: pillar of its mission.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So I went to a high security prison they
Speaker 2: call them close camps where they send people that you know,
Speaker 2: done some of society's worse crimes. They're there, and those
Speaker 2: first six or seven years that kind of blurry to
Speaker 2: me because I was so focused on fighting and educating myself.
Speaker 2: I had to totally like re educate myself because everything
Speaker 2: I thought I believed turned out to be alive about
Speaker 2: the system and everything. You know, I had to learn
Speaker 2: about myself. You know. I learned about my history, learn
Speaker 2: about the history of this country, learn about you know,
Speaker 2: other people who suffered injustices, and tried to understand how
Speaker 2: these things happened. You know, it wasn't just me, and
Speaker 2: I started learning like, man, this is a big problem.
Speaker 2: So I just got on a mission to better myself
Speaker 2: and better educate myself so I could learn how to
Speaker 2: write better, learn how to communicate better, to get support.
Speaker 2: You know, I had to be able to write people.
Speaker 2: It's like you're going on a campaign and you just
Speaker 2: got to learn how to articulate yourself. At the same time,
Speaker 2: growing spiritually, working out, trying to be an impact on
Speaker 2: the guys in there, because I started seeing that, you know,
Speaker 2: a lot of guys weren't educated at all, like no
Speaker 2: GEDs and a lot of illiteracy. So I put myself
Speaker 2: in a block where I could tutor guys and just
Speaker 2: help out in that way. I knew it was other
Speaker 2: guys that were innocent, and if they were illiterate, they
Speaker 2: didn't stand a chance. You know, It's tons of guys
Speaker 2: in there for stuff they didn't do, but they don't
Speaker 2: have any support. They don't know how to explain their situation.
Speaker 2: They don't even really know what happened. They don't really
Speaker 2: understand the language that was used on them in the courtroom,
Speaker 2: just sitting there trying to fight their way through the
Speaker 2: everyday life of prison. So I just had to try
Speaker 2: to be an impact in there. I wasn't going to
Speaker 2: allow what happened to me to make me bitter, make
Speaker 2: me because I saw that it directly affects your health.
Speaker 2: So I had to make my mind up to you know,
Speaker 2: understand forgiveness and try to understand that maybe these people
Speaker 2: made a mistake, maybe they really thought we did do this,
Speaker 2: you know, but I found out later on. This gets
Speaker 2: me angry man, is that they knew it was other
Speaker 2: people and other suspects. They will on these guys trail man,
Speaker 2: and these are people that we're finding out other people
Speaker 2: that committed the crime, and they were on that track,
Speaker 2: but just wanted us just focus on us man, and
Speaker 2: went forward with a full story a preschool. It could
Speaker 2: have poke holes in this God's story, but they moved
Speaker 2: forward with it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's extraordinary to me that you and
Speaker 1: others have found a way to now he find this
Speaker 1: spiritual grace or whatever you want to call it. But
Speaker 1: also to overcome is the best word I can think
Speaker 1: of this incredible hardship. It's not even I can't find
Speaker 1: the right word. But it's worth noting that Al was
Speaker 1: convicted about five years after the crime was committed, all
Speaker 1: the way in nineteen ninety six, and that same year
Speaker 1: there was a motion for a new trial based on
Speaker 1: an afphi David from Jeremiah Abdulah Charlton Al. Who was
Speaker 1: he and why was his affidavit significant?
Speaker 2: So this was a few years after my conviction. I
Speaker 2: run into this guy who says he had some information
Speaker 2: that he's been trying to share and had in fact
Speaker 2: shared with police, and he was the last person to
Speaker 2: see Marshall Blakeley. At least he alleged he was, you know,
Speaker 2: put her into the car with two guys to exchange
Speaker 2: four drugs. I guess he was like pimping, so to speak,
Speaker 2: and he put her in the car with these guys.
Speaker 2: So the judge did give us a hearing based on
Speaker 2: his affidavit. Anytime somebody files an affidavit, you have to
Speaker 2: come to testify to the truthfulness of the affidavit. But
Speaker 2: when we get to the hearing, Maloya wasn't even prepared,
Speaker 2: didn't call him, didn't subpoena any and lo and behold,
Speaker 2: I found out this same prosecutor had indicted her for
Speaker 2: some stuff in her office, you know, stuff that they
Speaker 2: were going through, and had her under indictment at the
Speaker 2: time of that hearing. So she wasn't in her right mind.
Speaker 2: And the judge denied the hearing based on her unpreparedness.
Speaker 2: And she was a good attorney, I mean, she fought,
Speaker 2: she believed in me, but she couldn't go up against
Speaker 2: these guys man, they were too influential.
Speaker 1: It seems to me that there were any number of
Speaker 1: times when the state had not just the opportunity, but
Speaker 1: the obligation to right this wrong. But like it often does, instead,
Speaker 1: it sort of got under its shell like a turtle
Speaker 1: and deflected any new information or evidence to protect this
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction or these four wrongful convictions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Al did his sort of regular direct appeals which
Speaker 3: didn't go anywhere. And then later Avery Junior, you know,
Speaker 3: the only guy that put him at the scene, he
Speaker 3: recanted and admitted that he made the whole thing up.
Speaker 3: What's interesting about that is it took a long time
Speaker 3: for Al's family to track down Avery Junior. He kind
Speaker 3: of lived off the grid and it was hard to
Speaker 3: find him. But once they did and he admitted, you
Speaker 3: know that he had lied in this. What we later
Speaker 3: found out was that that wasn't the first time he recanted.
Speaker 3: He actually recanted a couple of years before that to
Speaker 3: an FBI agent in Detroit, just completely out of the
Speaker 3: blue and on his own. Nobody from the state ever
Speaker 3: got a hold of Al or any of his attorneys
Speaker 3: to let him know that. So at that point there
Speaker 3: was no evidence left, and the States admitted that in
Speaker 3: filings before that, Without Avery Junior, there's no case against Al.
Speaker 3: So this was before Ohio Innocence Project and I got
Speaker 3: involved in the case. But he went back to state
Speaker 3: court with this sworn statement in affidavit from Avery Junior.
Speaker 3: And in the state court they finally eventually held a
Speaker 3: hearing where they called him meant to testify, well, they
Speaker 3: read him his rights on the stand he did, threatened
Speaker 3: to prosecute him with perjury in the four different trials
Speaker 3: if he proceeded to recant on the stand, and he said, well,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to prison for thirty years, took the
Speaker 3: fifth and walked out. Now, the only reasonable conclusion you
Speaker 3: could draw from that was that he was going to
Speaker 3: testify that he lied at the trial because he wasn't
Speaker 3: in any danger if he was going to suddenly say
Speaker 3: he was telling the truth at the trial, if that
Speaker 3: makes sense. But in any case, he walks outside and
Speaker 3: there's an interview with a reporter right afterward where he says,
Speaker 3: dude's innocent, but I'm not going to prison for it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, his silence spoke volumes.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and if they were interested in justice, they would
Speaker 3: have let him testify. So yeah, then he lost there,
Speaker 3: and then we ended up in federal court, and that's
Speaker 3: where I kind of came in.
Speaker 1: We know how difficult the federal court is. Unfortunately, due
Speaker 1: to Edpah, the chances of success in federal court are
Speaker 1: basically the same as a snowballs chance in hell. But
Speaker 1: tell us what you did, how you did it, and
Speaker 1: how the hell you finally managed to bring him home
Speaker 1: as a miracle.
Speaker 3: We filed it in federal court, and the district court
Speaker 3: had said that we couldn't go forward with the habeas
Speaker 3: case because there's this statute of limitations for of one year,
Speaker 3: and long story short, they said we were too late.
Speaker 3: So we filed an appeal because there's this exception if
Speaker 3: you can show that someone is actually innocent, and that's
Speaker 3: what we did with the recantation from Avery. And then
Speaker 3: we had evidence from the alibi witnesses and additional alibi
Speaker 3: witnesses as well. So the state, you know, had poked
Speaker 3: holes in Al's Alibia trial by saying, well, he could
Speaker 3: have driven or flown here after the times we knew
Speaker 3: he was in New York. Well, we had additional witnesses
Speaker 3: that we found that proved that Al was in New
Speaker 3: York at the time the crime happened, or so close
Speaker 3: in time to it that unless he could time travel,
Speaker 3: he could not have possibly gone back to Ohio.
Speaker 4: So based on.
Speaker 3: Those things, we convinced the Sixth Circuit that we had
Speaker 3: shown that he was actually innocent. That didn't mean that
Speaker 3: he got to go home. That just meant that we
Speaker 3: got the right to actually pursue the habeas claims in
Speaker 3: the district court. So in federal court you have to
Speaker 3: make federal constitutional claims. So we were making federal claims
Speaker 3: of Brady violations where the state had hid evidence and
Speaker 3: also that they had intentionally put on false evidence from
Speaker 3: Avery that they knew was false, and also claimed like
Speaker 3: an effective assistance of trial council for failing to find
Speaker 3: some of these additional alibi witnesses. And then we also
Speaker 3: made a claim based on actual innocence and said, you know,
Speaker 3: he has a federal constitutional right to not be in
Speaker 3: prison if he's actually innocent. Although interestingly, the US Supreme
Speaker 3: Court even to this day has not expressly recognized that
Speaker 3: that's a federal constitutional right to not be in prisoned
Speaker 3: if you're innocent. So we had this hearing and then
Speaker 3: we lost. I mean, I can't even describe how I
Speaker 3: felt when the notification came and it came over email
Speaker 3: and I saw it, and I think I just about
Speaker 3: fell out of my chair. You know, losing the appeals
Speaker 3: in this case has been, I think the hardest thing
Speaker 3: I've had to deal with professionally. It still boggles my
Speaker 3: mind and infuriates me and saddens me all at the
Speaker 3: same time. And then, because of the weirdness of habeas law,
Speaker 3: we weren't allowed to appeal directly. We had to ask
Speaker 3: for permission to appeal. And then the Sixth Circuit, which
Speaker 3: was the same court that had said we had put
Speaker 3: forward a case showing that al was actually innocent, then
Speaker 3: denied us the right to appeal and said we didn't
Speaker 3: even have the right to appeal, which I still can't
Speaker 3: explain that. I don't know how you say, well, it
Speaker 3: looks like he's actually innocent, then get more evidence supporting that,
Speaker 3: and then just say, well, never mind, we're not going
Speaker 3: to hear your claim anymore. But that's what happened.
Speaker 1: That's our system, ladies and gentlemen. The Sixth Circuit said, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're innocent, but no, we're not going to give you
Speaker 1: a new trial. Furthermore, this Supreme Court has said that
Speaker 1: actual innocence doesn't necessarily provide a basis for relief. I
Speaker 1: think it was Scalia who made that, those awful statements.
Speaker 1: And you know, we should all be reviled by this,
Speaker 1: like what are you talking about? Like what the fuck
Speaker 1: are you talking about? That actual innocence is not a
Speaker 1: basis for a relief. Yes, it is. Everybody knows this,
Speaker 1: and yet that's not the way it works here. It's
Speaker 1: like procedure is more important than justice. It's basically what
Speaker 1: it comes down to. And it's madness. It's absolute madness.
Speaker 1: And we're here, als here in the flesh, as a
Speaker 1: living example of just how wrong all of this is.
Speaker 1: But before we get to the closing of the show,
Speaker 1: I want to talk about one other, absolutely extraordinary aspect
Speaker 1: of your life, and that is your wife and Vailing.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful in all this darkness and misery, This woman
Speaker 1: who I look forward to meeting someday. Yeah, stood by you.
Speaker 1: How is that even possible?
Speaker 5: Twenty five years We did an interview yesterday and I
Speaker 5: asked her during an interview what would make a woman
Speaker 5: make such a huge sacrifice in their life and she
Speaker 5: just said, man, loved I mean, it was very powerful
Speaker 5: and this woman loves me man like. That's why I
Speaker 5: made that song Jennifer about you, guys, And I'm telling.
Speaker 2: You all through the song like love can do all things. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I had Damon John as a friend and he did
Speaker 2: rise while I was in prison and helped out with
Speaker 2: attorney fees where he could and where I needed him to.
Speaker 2: But it wasn't money. It was the love of people.
Speaker 2: It was the love of my wife. It was a
Speaker 2: love of family members who supported me. It was a
Speaker 2: love of Jennifer and the Innocence Project. And it's just
Speaker 2: me saying thanks. So I want to share that. You know,
Speaker 2: I'll go by the name of it in Cleveland, it's
Speaker 2: called Welcome Back. Thanks for holding them, friends, Thanks for
Speaker 2: your thoughts while I was up in there. Appreciate your
Speaker 2: support while I was down.
Speaker 1: And now I'm so happy that your talents will finally
Speaker 1: be put to use in the world. So everyone, please
Speaker 1: make sure you scroll down. We'll have all of this
Speaker 1: link in the bio.
Speaker 2: And don't forgive my wife and not books. She's sitting
Speaker 2: right here with me. Three Strands, One Cord, A couple's
Speaker 2: guide to understanding incarceration for couples and families going through
Speaker 2: in conservation. If they need some help on how to
Speaker 2: navigate that terrain and make it through and possibly.
Speaker 4: Even thrive in love plans, then.
Speaker 2: Get the book. It's our way of serving that community.
Speaker 2: So three strands, one chord, Couple's Guide to Understanding Incarceration
Speaker 2: Roberta and Alpha cleveand thank you for real man. Those
Speaker 2: that the and it's this project Jennifer and Nemman, Morgan
Speaker 2: and Jassie in Virginia, and you know Jason Flem and
Speaker 2: Lourie pushing, praying, my wife, my kids, never complaim once,
Speaker 2: move house to house, the house.
Speaker 1: It was crazy crazy. In summer of twenty twenty, Jennifer,
Speaker 1: you presented OL's case of innocence along with countless letters
Speaker 1: of support, and at that parle board hearing they voted
Speaker 1: in favor of Al's release.
Speaker 3: So in Ohio, the way it works is if you
Speaker 3: are recommended for parole and certain crimes, the victim's family
Speaker 3: or the prosecutor has the opportunity to object. So that's
Speaker 3: what happened, and so then it goes to the full
Speaker 3: parole board. So there was ten members and we went
Speaker 3: in person. Al was not there. It was me and
Speaker 3: his wife. We came in and spoke, and then Damon
Speaker 3: John spoke via the internet, and then you know, the victims'
Speaker 3: family members were allowed to speak too. But it was
Speaker 3: a really moving and overwhelming moment because one of the
Speaker 3: victim's family members actually spoke out in favor of parole
Speaker 3: because she didn't think that they had done the crime either,
Speaker 3: which just hearing that was overwhelming. So the whole parole
Speaker 3: board left and we just kind of had to sit
Speaker 3: there and wait for them to make a decision, which
Speaker 3: was one of the longest times of waiting I think
Speaker 3: I've ever felt. But they came back in and it
Speaker 3: was nine to one in favor of parole for him
Speaker 3: and his codefendant, Lynworth Edwards was also up that day
Speaker 3: and so they both were granted it, And I mean,
Speaker 3: it was just incredible knowing he was finally going to
Speaker 3: come home. It was frustrating knowing he wasn't getting exonerated
Speaker 3: or no one was acknowledging his innocence yet, but at
Speaker 3: least he'd be home.
Speaker 1: It's anti climactic in a sense because and this is
Speaker 1: important for the audience to hear, Al still hasn't been
Speaker 1: declared actually innocent, which means he's not eligible for compensation.
Speaker 1: He still has to be on parole, et cetera. Right,
Speaker 1: I'm going to put it out there right now. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think we have to explore the possibility of getting
Speaker 1: an absolute pardon. You know, I will help in any
Speaker 1: way that I'm asked to. I don't want to get
Speaker 1: in the way. I think the governor of Ohio is
Speaker 1: a reasonable and decent man.
Speaker 3: Well, thank you. I will say that we're not done yet.
Speaker 3: We think we've identified who actually did the crime, and
Speaker 3: so you know, we're now in the position the only
Speaker 3: legal avenue he has forward at this point is if
Speaker 3: we can solve the crime for the state and kind
Speaker 3: of take it to them, which is what we're working on.
Speaker 3: So stay tuned. Hopefully this isn't the end. Hopefully he
Speaker 3: will eventually get the exoneration he deserves.
Speaker 1: Amen to that. And at this point we turn to
Speaker 1: the part where I first of all thank each of
Speaker 1: you for being here and sharing this unbelievable And now
Speaker 1: I'm going to introduce the closing of the show, which
Speaker 1: is called closing arguments are probably enough. And this is
Speaker 1: the part where I turn off my microphone, kick back
Speaker 1: in my chair, close my eyes, leave my headphones on,
Speaker 1: and I turn it over to you first, Jennifer, for
Speaker 1: closing arguments, whatever you want to say, anything you think
Speaker 1: that's left unsaid, and then we'll save the best for last,
Speaker 1: and we'll go to you Al for your closing arguments,
Speaker 1: and that's how we'll end the show.
Speaker 3: Well, I wanted to say thank you for having me
Speaker 3: on today and listening to the story about we barely
Speaker 3: scratch the surface of all the crazy twists and turns
Speaker 3: of this case, but I appreciate you bringing this to
Speaker 3: the audience, and Al, I just wanted to say thank
Speaker 3: you for believing in me over this whole time, even
Speaker 3: when things haven't gone as we hoped. But I'm just
Speaker 3: so delighted that you're home, and I'm so excited to
Speaker 3: see all the good that you're doing in the world.
Speaker 3: And I'm happy that other people now finally get to
Speaker 3: see what I've been able to see for the last
Speaker 3: eleven years that we've been working on this case together.
Speaker 3: And I'm excited to see what comes in your future.
Speaker 3: But also just a reminder that you can't do it
Speaker 3: all in a day, because I know you're.
Speaker 4: Trying well, So Jennifer I want to First, I want
Speaker 4: to thank you.
Speaker 2: I want to thank Cassie. I want to thank Morgan.
Speaker 2: I want to thank Virginia. I want to thank Professor
Speaker 2: Gatzi for you know, backing us, putting you in position
Speaker 2: for taking the case, taking a huge burden off of
Speaker 2: me and my family, you know. Thank you. Second, Jason,
Speaker 2: you talked about going to the governor for a pardon
Speaker 2: and helping in any way. You can thank you for that.
Speaker 2: But I have two co defendants who are still incarcerated,
Speaker 2: Benson Davis and John Edwards, And if we went to
Speaker 2: the governor about anything, I would want the focus to
Speaker 2: be them and their release because they're sitting in there
Speaker 2: and poor boy days didn't come up like Lenny's and
Speaker 2: ours did. They're still in there and they don't deserve
Speaker 2: to be there, So any efforts in that area I
Speaker 2: would love to be focused on them. I'm gonna be
Speaker 2: all right, bro, I'm gonna be okay, you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? With them, And if anybody out there has
Speaker 2: any information, you know what a long shot this is
Speaker 2: on a Wrongful Previction podcast. Who knows somebody might listen
Speaker 2: to this and have some information about who really committed
Speaker 2: the crimes. We think we know the truth, we think
Speaker 2: we know who did it, but we need confirmation, we
Speaker 2: need concrete evidence. So please contact my lawyer at the
Speaker 2: Innocence Project, Jennifer. Please tell them your number or who
Speaker 2: they can contact if you have any information, contact them
Speaker 2: and let's get this over with so we can get
Speaker 2: these men out of prison. Jennifer, Please please tell me.
Speaker 3: Remember yeah, absolutely, the Ohio Innocence Project. You can reach
Speaker 3: us here at five one three five five six zero
Speaker 3: seven five to two. And I also wanted to just
Speaker 3: add that the fact that you know you were given
Speaker 3: the chance to say anything after Jason, and your first
Speaker 3: thought is to think of your two co defendants who
Speaker 3: are still in prison, I think tells everybody all they
Speaker 3: need to know about your character.
Speaker 2: Appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm.
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the
Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn,
Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction. Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason
Speaker 1: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one