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Speaker 1: We initially released Al Cleveland's story in May twenty twenty one,

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Speaker 1: but before we get to that, we had a chance

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Speaker 1: to sit down with the man at the twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: three Innocence Network Conference in Phoenix, Arizona. It's a gathering

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Speaker 1: of the innocence community from all across the country and

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Speaker 1: I look forward to it so.

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Speaker 2: Much every year.

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Speaker 1: It's so great to see what our old friends are

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Speaker 1: doing at Al Cleveland has always been an artist at

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Speaker 1: heart and in practice, and before his wrongful conviction, he

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Speaker 1: did want to get this. He did one of his

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Speaker 1: first murals ever for ll cool J. Yeah, back when

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Speaker 1: they grew up together in Queens. Well, now Al's continuing

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Speaker 1: that work and well, you know what, I'm gonna let

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Speaker 1: him tell you. Now, what are you up to these days?

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Speaker 2: From painting customized portraits on wood natural canvases, something unique, niche,

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Speaker 2: But people seem to like it.

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Speaker 1: I like it. I mean, I've seen some of your

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Speaker 1: work and it's I don't even know. I literally I

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Speaker 1: haven't the faintest idea how you do what you do,

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Speaker 1: but you do it with love.

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Speaker 2: You can go to Clevecoasstudios dot com. That's my website

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Speaker 2: and I do murals too.

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Speaker 1: Now what else? Tell us anything else that's going on

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Speaker 1: in your life right now besides the art.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So two brief things. I work for this nonprofit

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Speaker 2: that gives jobs to guys coming out of prison. So

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Speaker 2: I'm like a site supervisor, make sure they're doing the

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Speaker 2: right thing, unloading the trucks, blah blah blah. And it

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Speaker 2: puts money in their pockets immediately every day, kind of

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Speaker 2: helps them with that transition. It's called a Center for

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Speaker 2: Employment Opportunities. That's one thing. But I also invested in

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Speaker 2: this little gadget here. I don't know if you've seen online.

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Speaker 2: It's called love Handles, and it's a phone grip kind

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Speaker 2: of so you don't drop your phone, use it as

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Speaker 2: a kickstand. Wow both ways. And it's magnetic. This is

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Speaker 2: not metal, man.

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Speaker 1: Wow, look at that. And now here's the episode as

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Speaker 1: it originally aired back in May twenty one. In the

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Speaker 1: late eighties and early nineties, the crack epidemic was in

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Speaker 1: full swing in many parts of the country, including Lorain, Ohio,

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Speaker 1: where Sunset Pull Upard was known as the place to

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Speaker 1: buy and smoke crack without being hassled by the authorities.

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Speaker 1: The infamously corrupt Lorraine police department had a relationship with

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Speaker 1: a drug dealer addict and a notorious informant named William

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Speaker 1: Avery Senior, who ran the scene on Sunset Boulevard and

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Speaker 1: he didn't appreciate New Yorkers encroaching on his turf. On

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Speaker 1: August eighth, nineteen ninety one, the bodies of Marsha Blakeley

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Speaker 1: and Floyd Epps were discovered separately. The tire marks on

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Speaker 1: their heads were at least in part to blame for

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Speaker 1: their deaths. After the cases went cold, two thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: reward drew the attention of William Avery Senior, who brought

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Speaker 1: in his teenage son to falsely accuse four men from

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Speaker 1: New York, including Al Cleveland. The fact that al Cleveland

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Speaker 1: was in New York at the time of the murder

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Speaker 1: and that Avery Junior recanted his statement at the first

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Speaker 1: of the four trials did not stop Prosecutor Jonathan Rosenbaum

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Speaker 1: from going ahead with all four of these sham trials.

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Speaker 1: The Ohio criminal legal system continued mostly ignored William Avery

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Speaker 1: Junior's recantations for twenty five long years, leaving parole as

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Speaker 1: Al Cleveland's only Avenue for Relief. This is Wrongful Conviction

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Speaker 1: with Jason Flamm. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm.

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Speaker 1: That's me, and today you're going to hear a story

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Speaker 1: that defies description. I'm going to first of all, introduce

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Speaker 1: first Jennifer Passion VERSI around. It's been on the show

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Speaker 1: before as a deputy director of the Ohio Innocence Project. Jennifer,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 3: Thank you, it's good to be back.

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Speaker 1: And Al Cleveland. Al, I'm just going to say this.

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Speaker 1: Al has lived about seven or eight lifetimes so far,

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Speaker 1: and he survived twenty five years in prison for a

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Speaker 1: gruesome double murder that happened in Ohio while he was

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Speaker 1: in Queens, New York. That's just the beginning. So without

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Speaker 1: further ado, Al Cleveland, I'm so happy you're here. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry you have to be here, but I'm happier here.

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Speaker 2: Hey, I'm here, man, I'm with Jason plump. You got

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Speaker 2: to realize, Jason, like, I'm fresh home, Like I've just

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Speaker 2: been home maybe five months, and I sat on the

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Speaker 2: rack visualizing this. So here we are, man, I'm excited,

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Speaker 2: I'm pumped up, and thank you for doing this, Thank

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Speaker 2: you for doing this.

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Speaker 1: I don't ever know what to say. That means, that

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Speaker 1: means more to me than you couldn't even know. And

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Speaker 1: so al going back to the beginning, you grew up

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Speaker 1: such a fascinating story. You were a hip hop artist,

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Speaker 1: and not only that, but you were very close friends

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Speaker 1: with ll cool J back in Hollis Queens, Yes.

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Speaker 2: Sir at that. Yeah, so he grew up right around

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Speaker 2: the corner from me. So we were always in the basement,

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Speaker 2: you know, making mixtapes and making songs, and like I

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Speaker 2: seen his assent from the basement to you know, a

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Speaker 2: national stage. You know, used to go with him on tour,

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Speaker 2: like if he was in any of the surrounding states,

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Speaker 2: we would get in the vent and go wherever he

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Speaker 2: was and get backstage passes and you know, just have

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Speaker 2: tons of fun. It was just tons of fun seeing

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Speaker 2: that rise.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you witnessed literally the birth of a legend. And

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Speaker 1: here's your dear friend. I mean that rumor has it

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Speaker 1: that you actually painted his room.

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Speaker 4: I mean so crazy, I did, I did, I did,

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Speaker 4: And he owes me thirty bucks still for.

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Speaker 1: It, Oh my god, with interest. That's incredible. In his

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight book I Make My Own Rules. Ell

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Speaker 1: actually shouts you out and credits your artwork actually as

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Speaker 1: an early inspiration of his. So that's one. Okay, that's

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Speaker 1: just one. You ain't hurt nothing yet, stick with us, okay.

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Speaker 1: So another childhood friend of yours is Damon John, and

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Speaker 1: this I think highlights how crazy and random all this

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Speaker 1: shit is, because I think it's fair to say you

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Speaker 1: all had the same potential, but the system grabs you

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Speaker 1: and those guys on to become success stories while you

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Speaker 1: were being held captained by the state for a crime

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Speaker 1: you didn't commit. And for those of you who don't know,

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Speaker 1: Damon John is the founder and CEO of Fubu. So

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Speaker 1: tell us about Damon just quickly and how you come

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Speaker 1: to know him in the beginning.

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Speaker 2: Oh man, me and Damon we went to the same

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Speaker 2: Catholic school together in our neighborhood. From maybe second or

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Speaker 2: third grade. All the way up. We go on adventures,

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Speaker 2: bike rides, camping with my dad. That was my guy.

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Speaker 2: I wrote a book about it, actually, a little children's book.

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Speaker 1: What don't you Do? I feel like you Okay, but

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Speaker 1: we're going to get into that later. So to set

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Speaker 1: the stage, We're back in the eighties and early nineties.

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Speaker 1: The crack epidemic was in full swing, and you were

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Speaker 1: now going back and forth to Northeast Ohio. Right, it

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Speaker 1: seems so random. Why would a kid from Queen's end

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Speaker 1: up in Loren, Ohio.

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Speaker 2: All Right, So, since I'm talking to you, Flam and

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Speaker 2: you got experience in the music business, I want to

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Speaker 2: just go back a little bit to help you and

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Speaker 2: help everybody understand. So late eighties, my sister gets killed

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Speaker 2: by some skinheads in Detroit, and it was a big thing.

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Speaker 2: My mom was protesting, but me, I internalized this thing

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Speaker 2: and just kind of like went into my art. And

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Speaker 2: at the time, I was doing graffiti and you know

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Speaker 2: art on that level, trying to get into galleries and

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Speaker 2: trying to make my way, but it wasn't happening. So

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Speaker 2: I started promoting parties, doing shows. Ran into a guy

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Speaker 2: who had a studio. We started going to the studio.

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Speaker 2: I found out, Hey, I got some talent, I can rap,

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Speaker 2: I can do this, I seen ll do it. Let

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Speaker 2: me take this route. So we started going to the

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Speaker 2: studio and making songs, and we started forming a vision

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Speaker 2: of what we wanted to do. But the problem was

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Speaker 2: Jason back then. You know, you had to get records

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Speaker 2: pressed up, you had to get a song mastered, you

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Speaker 2: had to go through all these steps, and I didn't

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Speaker 2: have the money for that. At every stage, we kept

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Speaker 2: finding ourselves broke. So ninety ninety one, a friend of

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Speaker 2: mine gets in touch with me. He had left New

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Speaker 2: York to go to Ohio with a few other dudes,

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Speaker 2: and they were into the drug scene, low level, but

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Speaker 2: he was incarcerated and he asked me to help him

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Speaker 2: with the bond money. At the time, I didn't have it.

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Speaker 2: I only had my rent money. So he enticed me

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Speaker 2: a little more and told me he would double my money.

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Speaker 2: Just come on out, give him a few days and

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Speaker 2: he would have the money back for me. And at

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Speaker 2: the time, I wanted to explore the music scene out here.

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Speaker 2: I said, you know what the heck man and I

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Speaker 2: did it. I sent him the money came out here.

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Speaker 2: That's how I wound up out here. He took me

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Speaker 2: to a project. You know, he's showing me how he

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Speaker 2: does his thing. You know, gave me the little package

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Speaker 2: to hold. Police comes they chase him, arrest him. I

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Speaker 2: have the little thing I dished, a little thing I

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Speaker 2: wound up meeting some guys, went to a guy's house

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Speaker 2: who wound up being the guy who wound up setting

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Speaker 2: us up. But I went to his house. He asked

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Speaker 2: me if I had anything, and I'm like, I kind

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Speaker 2: of do. He asked me if I'm from New York,

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Speaker 2: do I know my co defending. I'm like, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: know him. Yeah. He's like, if you got something, I

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Speaker 2: can sell it. So I went and retrieved this stuff.

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Speaker 2: You started breaking it down with him. I didn't even

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Speaker 2: know the prices were haggling, and he takes what he

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Speaker 2: buys from me, goes right out into the street and

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Speaker 2: he's stopping cars like he's a traffic controller selling his thing.

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Speaker 2: And maybe an hour and a half later, the whole

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Speaker 2: little bag of stuff I had was, it was gone.

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Speaker 2: I had about twenty two hundred dollars in my pocket

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Speaker 2: For the next thirty to forty days, I just went

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Speaker 2: on a mission to get my startup capital. So, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I know it was wrong, but that was I had

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Speaker 2: a vision. I had a vision.

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Speaker 1: Jason, and I can't leave out the fact that when

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Speaker 1: you look at the history of hip hop music, there's

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Speaker 1: so many artists, legendary artists, who grew up the same

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Speaker 1: way you did. Some of them from the same area

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Speaker 1: you came from and ended up in the crack game

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Speaker 1: because that was the option that was available at the time,

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Speaker 1: like you said, to get startup capital or whatever it

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Speaker 1: may be, and just by fate, they didn't get arrested.

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Speaker 1: And many people know the names I mean, because these

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Speaker 1: people are not they're not secretive about it. When I

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Speaker 1: had Meek Bill on the podcast and I asked him

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Speaker 1: this question, how many people he met in prison deed

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Speaker 1: were as talented as he is, and he said he

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Speaker 1: couldn't even count.

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Speaker 4: How many.

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Speaker 2: You know, I've met so many guys in there, Jason,

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Speaker 2: who the visionaries. You know, they're the bread winners and

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Speaker 2: their families. And I just want to make it clear.

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Speaker 2: I just want to make sure I share this message

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Speaker 2: that if you do have a dream, if you do

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Speaker 2: have a vision, try to find out how to do

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Speaker 2: a business plan, try to find out how to go

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Speaker 2: to a bank or ask people family members to invest

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Speaker 2: in your dream instead of taking that route and putting

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Speaker 2: yourself at risk to come to the penitentiary, because it's

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Speaker 2: full of guys with dreams that fall through. So I

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Speaker 2: just wanted to share that.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm glad you did. And Jennifer, I want to

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Speaker 1: talk about the Lorraine Police Department because of course Loraine,

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Speaker 1: Ohio was where I was spending his time in those days,

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Speaker 1: and they were known for sexual abuse and brutality, which

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Speaker 1: is sadly a problem that exists to this day and

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Speaker 1: so many different police departments around this country. Can you

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Speaker 1: paint the picture of what was going on back then

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Speaker 1: and there and what was the deal with their unsavory

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Speaker 1: relationship with this shady character William Avery sor.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there was a huge crack problem. Similar to lots

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Speaker 3: of other areas in the country. The police had people

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Speaker 3: like William Avery Senior, who, at least according to Avery,

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Speaker 3: could kind of do some favors as a CI and

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Speaker 3: then be left alone and do whatever he wanted. So

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Speaker 3: there seemed to be sort of this unofficial arrangement between

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Speaker 3: the cops and some of the people there. So it

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Speaker 3: seemed to me that when folks from New York came

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Speaker 3: in and started sort of messing with that system, it

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Speaker 3: did not go over well with either the residents or

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Speaker 3: the police.

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Speaker 1: You had just gotten involved in this business, so to speak.

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Speaker 1: Al were you aware of what the Lorraine police department

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Speaker 1: was up.

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Speaker 2: To No, I wasn't. Actually I found out years later

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Speaker 2: through our investigation that one of my codefendants was the

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Speaker 2: one who invited me out here. He was kind of

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Speaker 2: like a target. We actually found a picture with him

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Speaker 2: with a bullseye in their police files like here, I

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Speaker 2: am just waltz right into Lorraine. I had no idea.

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Speaker 1: You're sitting duck. Let's face it. And as part of

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Speaker 1: the story centers around a guy named William Avery Senior,

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Speaker 1: who was a prolific paid informant at the time, and

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Speaker 1: he received special treatment as informants do in exchange for

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Speaker 1: his help. He lived on Sunset Boulevard in Lorain, Ohio

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Speaker 1: with his son, William Avery Junior, who he had introduced

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Speaker 1: to crack when the kid was just fourteen years old,

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Speaker 1: and this had become this sort of neighborhood spot where

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Speaker 1: people would come to smoke crack and the police looked

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Speaker 1: the other way, of course, because he was helping them

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Speaker 1: out while lying for them on cases, as well as

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Speaker 1: maybe providing accurate information once in a while. Have no idea.

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Speaker 1: And then there was Marsha Blakeley.

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Speaker 3: Well, Marsha Blakely was the murder victim. And she was

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Speaker 3: a young woman who was addicted to crack and other

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Speaker 3: drugs and was known on the streets for turning tricks

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Speaker 3: selling stolen goods to feed her addiction. She was just

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Speaker 3: a user who, for reasons that I still don't quite understand,

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Speaker 3: ended up brutally murdered in this whole situation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so she and a guy named Floyd Epps turned

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Speaker 1: up dead. And this is, you know, one of the

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Speaker 1: most brutal crimes I've ever heard of. On August eighth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, at nine eighteen in the morning, Marsha

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Speaker 1: Blakeley's body was discovered in an alley behind the West

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Speaker 1: Coast Shopping Center in the rain. She had twenty five

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Speaker 1: stab wounds, fractured ribs, a broken neck, a slit throat,

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Speaker 1: and torture wounds on her neck and head. And if

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Speaker 1: that wasn't enough, her head had been run over by

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Speaker 1: a car twice now. Earlier that same day, at one

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Speaker 1: twenty five am, Floyd Epps's body was found nearby, and

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Speaker 1: his head had also been run over by a car.

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Speaker 1: So this is bizarre because police believed that the murders

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Speaker 1: were related to anyone would of course, I mean, you

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Speaker 1: don't hear stories too often people being the heads run

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Speaker 1: over by cars, thankfully, But no arrests were made in

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Speaker 1: the Epps killing, and no arrests have been made to

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Speaker 1: this date, which is the whole separate problem. But nothing

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Speaker 1: was happening with these cases. The cops offered a two

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars reward for information, So now we go all

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Speaker 1: the way to over a month later, September tenth, William

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Speaker 1: Avery said he had information, and they told him that

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Speaker 1: the reward would only be given to someone with first

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Speaker 1: hand knowledge.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so William Avery Sr. Takes his son, William Avery

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Speaker 3: Junior in the next day to meet with the cops

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Speaker 3: to say what, you know, he knew about the crime,

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Speaker 3: But his story as it was told that day does

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Speaker 3: not match up to what he eventually said in the trials.

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Speaker 3: And in addition, it was just a bizarre meeting where

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Speaker 3: you know, the cops are interviewing William Avery Junior about

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Speaker 3: supposedly witnessing this burter, and yet his father sat in

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Speaker 3: on the entire interview and said like, yeah, I'm here

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Speaker 3: to remind him of the things that he forgot, which

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Speaker 3: just raised all kinds of red flags. But yet that's

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Speaker 3: that's what they went with.

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Speaker 1: So when Avery Senior and Junior went to the police,

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Speaker 1: Junior implicated four individuals in the death of Marshall Blakely.

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Speaker 1: That four men were Lenworth Edwards, Benson Davis, John Edwards,

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Speaker 1: and Alfred Cleveland, men they he claimed were drug dealers

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Speaker 1: from New York. Now. Avery Junior went on to say

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Speaker 1: that he owed you Al money and in order to

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Speaker 1: pay off the debt. Avery Junior claimed that Al took

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Speaker 1: him to Epps's apartment where Marcia Blakely was and that

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Speaker 1: Al told him to assault her. Avery Junior claimed to

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Speaker 1: refuse because he knew Marcia Blakeley. So, according to this

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Speaker 1: crazy tale from Avery Junior, the three other men assaulted

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Speaker 1: her for twenty minutes while he and Al watched. Avery

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Speaker 1: continued on that he went back to his apartment after

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Speaker 1: the assault, but said that Al came by after and

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Speaker 1: told him, quote, we took care of the junkie, We

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Speaker 1: knocked her off.

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Speaker 3: And thanks just started rolling from there. Although they never

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Speaker 3: really found any other evidence at all implicating these guys.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they can't find something that doesn't exist because

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Speaker 1: they weren't at that absolutely, So you weren't even in

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Speaker 1: fucking Ohio, right, tell us where you were during this

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Speaker 1: week and how we know that that's really true?

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Speaker 2: All right? So, yeah, I was on probation at the time.

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Speaker 2: I didn't realize when I was going to try. I

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Speaker 2: wasn't sure because it was like four years later that

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Speaker 2: that was the day that I went to my probation officer,

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Speaker 2: but I knew. I went back to New York to

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Speaker 2: see my probation officer and I was in New York

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Speaker 2: with Damon John, who had a van business at the time.

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Speaker 2: I went to buy a TV and I needed him

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Speaker 2: to come bring the TV to my house. And this

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Speaker 2: is all you know, the seventh, the eighth, when these

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Speaker 2: people were killed, and when I was going to trial,

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Speaker 2: I had the receipt for this TV. You know, we

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Speaker 2: got those times. You know. He came to trial and prosecuted,

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Speaker 2: try to dog them out like he was some young punk.

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Speaker 2: You know, he tried to discredit him and it was crazy.

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Speaker 3: I Mean, the state acknowledged that he had seen the

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Speaker 3: probation officer in New York on August seventh, but they

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Speaker 3: just said, well, he must have decided he was going

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Speaker 3: to either drive or fly to Ohio to come and

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Speaker 3: commit this brutal murder against this woman he didn't even know.

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Speaker 3: But it was just the word of one person that

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Speaker 3: was it.

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Speaker 1: So four people were victims of this compromise to say

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Speaker 1: the least paid informant and it was a two thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars ward and then they paid him again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he got the two thousand dollars reward for coming

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Speaker 3: forward initially, which was interesting because the award was listed

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Speaker 3: for anyone would get it, leading to an arrest. They

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Speaker 3: arrest Lynworth Edwards, one of the co defendants. He gets

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Speaker 3: the two thousand dollars. They then schedule a deposition of

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Speaker 3: William Avery Junior claiming that his life is in danger

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Speaker 3: or something, and he gets paid again, and then he

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Speaker 3: ends up getting paid more so at the end of

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Speaker 3: the bowl saga, he ended up getting paid around five

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars for his testimony.

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Speaker 1: Right, we're talking nineteen ninety one dollars is a lot

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Speaker 1: more money than it is today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, to someone who was a crack addict who

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Speaker 3: you know, on the stand said he never really had

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Speaker 3: a job, so this was his income.

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Speaker 1: So Avery Junior changed and recanted his story multiple times

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Speaker 1: after the initial interrogation, but his claims anyway were enough

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Speaker 1: and the authorities were happy to use them to convict

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Speaker 1: four men. Avery Junior was supposed to testify in the

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Speaker 1: first trial because guys were tried separately, right, Lynworth Edwards

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Speaker 1: was the first trial.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so at Lynworth Edward's first trial, this was the

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Speaker 3: first of the four to be tried. Yeah, William Avery

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Speaker 3: Junior basically demanded ten thousand dollars to keep given his testimony,

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Speaker 3: which you know, of course, the prosecutor said, well, no,

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Speaker 3: we're not paying you anything. So at this point Avery

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Speaker 3: Junior then says, well, I'm not going to testify. Everything

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Speaker 3: I said before was a lie. So yeah, they end

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Speaker 3: up throwing him in jail and charging him with contempt.

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Speaker 3: But he later comes back and it's the second trial

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Speaker 3: for Lynworth and says, well, the reason I flip flopped

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Speaker 3: before was because I was threatened in the jail if

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Speaker 3: I went forward with telling what I know about this crime.

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Speaker 3: And so that's how they got away with putting on

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Speaker 3: his testimony in lynn Were's second trial and then in

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Speaker 3: the rest of the defendant's trials. However, what we found

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Speaker 3: out later years later was that those threats never happened.

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Speaker 3: We found records showing that Avery Junior, he actually got

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Speaker 3: in trouble for making false reports about getting threatened. And

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Speaker 3: so the whole case was just built on a lie.

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Speaker 1: Basically a lot of lifes. Well, yes, but and Al

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Speaker 1: your trial, you were the third one tried right, and

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Speaker 1: your trial lasted six days.

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Speaker 2: When the jury came in, I turned around to look

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Speaker 2: at them, and I saw it was hatred. Bro I

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Speaker 2: saw a hatred and my mom was there, a couple

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Speaker 2: of supporters. And when the judge read the verdict, he

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Speaker 2: told me that I'm sentenced to life. And I told

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Speaker 2: him I didn't do it. And the screech when he

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Speaker 2: said guilty, the screech came a mother's voice. I knew

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Speaker 2: it took a party purses part from. All I can

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Speaker 2: do is try to turn around comforter like it's gonna

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Speaker 2: be okay, It's gonna be all right.

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Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by the AIG pro Bono Program.

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Speaker 1: AIG is a leading global insurance company, and for over

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00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,400
Speaker 1: a decade, the AIG pro Bono Program has provided thousands

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00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 1: of hours of ree, legal services and other support to

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00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:50,080
Speaker 1: nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need. More recently, the

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00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 1: program added criminal and social justice reform as a key

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Speaker 1: pillar of its mission.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So I went to a high security prison they

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Speaker 2: call them close camps where they send people that you know,

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Speaker 2: done some of society's worse crimes. They're there, and those

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Speaker 2: first six or seven years that kind of blurry to

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Speaker 2: me because I was so focused on fighting and educating myself.

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Speaker 2: I had to totally like re educate myself because everything

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Speaker 2: I thought I believed turned out to be alive about

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Speaker 2: the system and everything. You know, I had to learn

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Speaker 2: about myself. You know. I learned about my history, learn

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Speaker 2: about the history of this country, learn about you know,

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Speaker 2: other people who suffered injustices, and tried to understand how

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Speaker 2: these things happened. You know, it wasn't just me, and

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Speaker 2: I started learning like, man, this is a big problem.

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Speaker 2: So I just got on a mission to better myself

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Speaker 2: and better educate myself so I could learn how to

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Speaker 2: write better, learn how to communicate better, to get support.

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Speaker 2: You know, I had to be able to write people.

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Speaker 2: It's like you're going on a campaign and you just

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Speaker 2: got to learn how to articulate yourself. At the same time,

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Speaker 2: growing spiritually, working out, trying to be an impact on

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Speaker 2: the guys in there, because I started seeing that, you know,

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Speaker 2: a lot of guys weren't educated at all, like no

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Speaker 2: GEDs and a lot of illiteracy. So I put myself

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Speaker 2: in a block where I could tutor guys and just

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Speaker 2: help out in that way. I knew it was other

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Speaker 2: guys that were innocent, and if they were illiterate, they

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Speaker 2: didn't stand a chance. You know, It's tons of guys

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Speaker 2: in there for stuff they didn't do, but they don't

434
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,080
Speaker 2: have any support. They don't know how to explain their situation.

435
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,400
Speaker 2: They don't even really know what happened. They don't really

436
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 2: understand the language that was used on them in the courtroom,

437
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: just sitting there trying to fight their way through the

438
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 2: everyday life of prison. So I just had to try

439
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:54,720
Speaker 2: to be an impact in there. I wasn't going to

440
00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 2: allow what happened to me to make me bitter, make

441
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:02,920
Speaker 2: me because I saw that it directly affects your health.

442
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,240
Speaker 2: So I had to make my mind up to you know,

443
00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 2: understand forgiveness and try to understand that maybe these people

444
00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:10,679
Speaker 2: made a mistake, maybe they really thought we did do this,

445
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: you know, but I found out later on. This gets

446
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,200
Speaker 2: me angry man, is that they knew it was other

447
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,400
Speaker 2: people and other suspects. They will on these guys trail man,

448
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:23,639
Speaker 2: and these are people that we're finding out other people

449
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: that committed the crime, and they were on that track,

450
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,200
Speaker 2: but just wanted us just focus on us man, and

451
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 2: went forward with a full story a preschool. It could

452
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:36,320
Speaker 2: have poke holes in this God's story, but they moved

453
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: forward with it.

454
00:23:37,840 --> 00:23:42,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's extraordinary to me that you and

455
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,159
Speaker 1: others have found a way to now he find this

456
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,679
Speaker 1: spiritual grace or whatever you want to call it. But

457
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,200
Speaker 1: also to overcome is the best word I can think

458
00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,200
Speaker 1: of this incredible hardship. It's not even I can't find

459
00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:57,439
Speaker 1: the right word. But it's worth noting that Al was

460
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: convicted about five years after the crime was committed, all

461
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 1: the way in nineteen ninety six, and that same year

462
00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,679
Speaker 1: there was a motion for a new trial based on

463
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 1: an afphi David from Jeremiah Abdulah Charlton Al. Who was

464
00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,400
Speaker 1: he and why was his affidavit significant?

465
00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,159
Speaker 2: So this was a few years after my conviction. I

466
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 2: run into this guy who says he had some information

467
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,719
Speaker 2: that he's been trying to share and had in fact

468
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 2: shared with police, and he was the last person to

469
00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 2: see Marshall Blakeley. At least he alleged he was, you know,

470
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 2: put her into the car with two guys to exchange

471
00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,159
Speaker 2: four drugs. I guess he was like pimping, so to speak,

472
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 2: and he put her in the car with these guys.

473
00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,399
Speaker 2: So the judge did give us a hearing based on

474
00:24:45,480 --> 00:24:49,479
Speaker 2: his affidavit. Anytime somebody files an affidavit, you have to

475
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,240
Speaker 2: come to testify to the truthfulness of the affidavit. But

476
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,879
Speaker 2: when we get to the hearing, Maloya wasn't even prepared,

477
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: didn't call him, didn't subpoena any and lo and behold,

478
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,080
Speaker 2: I found out this same prosecutor had indicted her for

479
00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,560
Speaker 2: some stuff in her office, you know, stuff that they

480
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 2: were going through, and had her under indictment at the

481
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,000
Speaker 2: time of that hearing. So she wasn't in her right mind.

482
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 2: And the judge denied the hearing based on her unpreparedness.

483
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: And she was a good attorney, I mean, she fought,

484
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,440
Speaker 2: she believed in me, but she couldn't go up against

485
00:25:21,440 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 2: these guys man, they were too influential.

486
00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: It seems to me that there were any number of

487
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: times when the state had not just the opportunity, but

488
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: the obligation to right this wrong. But like it often does, instead,

489
00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: it sort of got under its shell like a turtle

490
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:43,199
Speaker 1: and deflected any new information or evidence to protect this

491
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: wrongful conviction or these four wrongful convictions.

492
00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, Al did his sort of regular direct appeals which

493
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,199
Speaker 3: didn't go anywhere. And then later Avery Junior, you know,

494
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,679
Speaker 3: the only guy that put him at the scene, he

495
00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,320
Speaker 3: recanted and admitted that he made the whole thing up.

496
00:25:58,760 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 3: What's interesting about that is it took a long time

497
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 3: for Al's family to track down Avery Junior. He kind

498
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 3: of lived off the grid and it was hard to

499
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 3: find him. But once they did and he admitted, you

500
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,280
Speaker 3: know that he had lied in this. What we later

501
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,720
Speaker 3: found out was that that wasn't the first time he recanted.

502
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:20,199
Speaker 3: He actually recanted a couple of years before that to

503
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 3: an FBI agent in Detroit, just completely out of the

504
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 3: blue and on his own. Nobody from the state ever

505
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 3: got a hold of Al or any of his attorneys

506
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:32,200
Speaker 3: to let him know that. So at that point there

507
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 3: was no evidence left, and the States admitted that in

508
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:39,400
Speaker 3: filings before that, Without Avery Junior, there's no case against Al.

509
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 3: So this was before Ohio Innocence Project and I got

510
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,440
Speaker 3: involved in the case. But he went back to state

511
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,200
Speaker 3: court with this sworn statement in affidavit from Avery Junior.

512
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 3: And in the state court they finally eventually held a

513
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 3: hearing where they called him meant to testify, well, they

514
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 3: read him his rights on the stand he did, threatened

515
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 3: to prosecute him with perjury in the four different trials

516
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 3: if he proceeded to recant on the stand, and he said, well,

517
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,639
Speaker 3: I'm not going to prison for thirty years, took the

518
00:27:06,680 --> 00:27:10,800
Speaker 3: fifth and walked out. Now, the only reasonable conclusion you

519
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,679
Speaker 3: could draw from that was that he was going to

520
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 3: testify that he lied at the trial because he wasn't

521
00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 3: in any danger if he was going to suddenly say

522
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 3: he was telling the truth at the trial, if that

523
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 3: makes sense. But in any case, he walks outside and

524
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 3: there's an interview with a reporter right afterward where he says,

525
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 3: dude's innocent, but I'm not going to prison for it.

526
00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:29,840
Speaker 2: Yeah.

527
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, his silence spoke volumes.

528
00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 3: Absolutely, and if they were interested in justice, they would

529
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,640
Speaker 3: have let him testify. So yeah, then he lost there,

530
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 3: and then we ended up in federal court, and that's

531
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,320
Speaker 3: where I kind of came in.

532
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 1: We know how difficult the federal court is. Unfortunately, due

533
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 1: to Edpah, the chances of success in federal court are

534
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: basically the same as a snowballs chance in hell. But

535
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: tell us what you did, how you did it, and

536
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,400
Speaker 1: how the hell you finally managed to bring him home

537
00:27:58,440 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 1: as a miracle.

538
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 3: We filed it in federal court, and the district court

539
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 3: had said that we couldn't go forward with the habeas

540
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,200
Speaker 3: case because there's this statute of limitations for of one year,

541
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 3: and long story short, they said we were too late.

542
00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 3: So we filed an appeal because there's this exception if

543
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 3: you can show that someone is actually innocent, and that's

544
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 3: what we did with the recantation from Avery. And then

545
00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 3: we had evidence from the alibi witnesses and additional alibi

546
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 3: witnesses as well. So the state, you know, had poked

547
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 3: holes in Al's Alibia trial by saying, well, he could

548
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 3: have driven or flown here after the times we knew

549
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 3: he was in New York. Well, we had additional witnesses

550
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 3: that we found that proved that Al was in New

551
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 3: York at the time the crime happened, or so close

552
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:51,120
Speaker 3: in time to it that unless he could time travel,

553
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 3: he could not have possibly gone back to Ohio.

554
00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 4: So based on.

555
00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 3: Those things, we convinced the Sixth Circuit that we had

556
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 3: shown that he was actually innocent. That didn't mean that

557
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 3: he got to go home. That just meant that we

558
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 3: got the right to actually pursue the habeas claims in

559
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 3: the district court. So in federal court you have to

560
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: make federal constitutional claims. So we were making federal claims

561
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 3: of Brady violations where the state had hid evidence and

562
00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,880
Speaker 3: also that they had intentionally put on false evidence from

563
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: Avery that they knew was false, and also claimed like

564
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 3: an effective assistance of trial council for failing to find

565
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 3: some of these additional alibi witnesses. And then we also

566
00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: made a claim based on actual innocence and said, you know,

567
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 3: he has a federal constitutional right to not be in

568
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 3: prison if he's actually innocent. Although interestingly, the US Supreme

569
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,239
Speaker 3: Court even to this day has not expressly recognized that

570
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 3: that's a federal constitutional right to not be in prisoned

571
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:54,920
Speaker 3: if you're innocent. So we had this hearing and then

572
00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:58,440
Speaker 3: we lost. I mean, I can't even describe how I

573
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 3: felt when the notification came and it came over email

574
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: and I saw it, and I think I just about

575
00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,640
Speaker 3: fell out of my chair. You know, losing the appeals

576
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 3: in this case has been, I think the hardest thing

577
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 3: I've had to deal with professionally. It still boggles my

578
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 3: mind and infuriates me and saddens me all at the

579
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 3: same time. And then, because of the weirdness of habeas law,

580
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 3: we weren't allowed to appeal directly. We had to ask

581
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,920
Speaker 3: for permission to appeal. And then the Sixth Circuit, which

582
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:33,400
Speaker 3: was the same court that had said we had put

583
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 3: forward a case showing that al was actually innocent, then

584
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 3: denied us the right to appeal and said we didn't

585
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 3: even have the right to appeal, which I still can't

586
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 3: explain that. I don't know how you say, well, it

587
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 3: looks like he's actually innocent, then get more evidence supporting that,

588
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,000
Speaker 3: and then just say, well, never mind, we're not going

589
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 3: to hear your claim anymore. But that's what happened.

590
00:30:52,760 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: That's our system, ladies and gentlemen. The Sixth Circuit said, yeah,

591
00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 1: you're innocent, but no, we're not going to give you

592
00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: a new trial. Furthermore, this Supreme Court has said that

593
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 1: actual innocence doesn't necessarily provide a basis for relief. I

594
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: think it was Scalia who made that, those awful statements.

595
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:15,000
Speaker 1: And you know, we should all be reviled by this,

596
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:18,120
Speaker 1: like what are you talking about? Like what the fuck

597
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: are you talking about? That actual innocence is not a

598
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:27,320
Speaker 1: basis for a relief. Yes, it is. Everybody knows this,

599
00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: and yet that's not the way it works here. It's

600
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,800
Speaker 1: like procedure is more important than justice. It's basically what

601
00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 1: it comes down to. And it's madness. It's absolute madness.

602
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: And we're here, als here in the flesh, as a

603
00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 1: living example of just how wrong all of this is.

604
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,880
Speaker 1: But before we get to the closing of the show,

605
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:56,040
Speaker 1: I want to talk about one other, absolutely extraordinary aspect

606
00:31:56,080 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: of your life, and that is your wife and Vailing.

607
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:06,000
Speaker 1: It's beautiful in all this darkness and misery, This woman

608
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 1: who I look forward to meeting someday. Yeah, stood by you.

609
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: How is that even possible?

610
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 5: Twenty five years We did an interview yesterday and I

611
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 5: asked her during an interview what would make a woman

612
00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 5: make such a huge sacrifice in their life and she

613
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 5: just said, man, loved I mean, it was very powerful

614
00:32:24,840 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 5: and this woman loves me man like. That's why I

615
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,000
Speaker 5: made that song Jennifer about you, guys, And I'm telling.

616
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: You all through the song like love can do all things. Yeah,

617
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 2: I had Damon John as a friend and he did

618
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: rise while I was in prison and helped out with

619
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:45,600
Speaker 2: attorney fees where he could and where I needed him to.

620
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: But it wasn't money. It was the love of people.

621
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 2: It was the love of my wife. It was a

622
00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: love of family members who supported me. It was a

623
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 2: love of Jennifer and the Innocence Project. And it's just

624
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 2: me saying thanks. So I want to share that. You know,

625
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 2: I'll go by the name of it in Cleveland, it's

626
00:33:01,400 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: called Welcome Back. Thanks for holding them, friends, Thanks for

627
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:10,920
Speaker 2: your thoughts while I was up in there. Appreciate your

628
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 2: support while I was down.

629
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:18,840
Speaker 1: And now I'm so happy that your talents will finally

630
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,000
Speaker 1: be put to use in the world. So everyone, please

631
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 1: make sure you scroll down. We'll have all of this

632
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: link in the bio.

633
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 2: And don't forgive my wife and not books. She's sitting

634
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 2: right here with me. Three Strands, One Cord, A couple's

635
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: guide to understanding incarceration for couples and families going through

636
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 2: in conservation. If they need some help on how to

637
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:43,080
Speaker 2: navigate that terrain and make it through and possibly.

638
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 4: Even thrive in love plans, then.

639
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 2: Get the book. It's our way of serving that community.

640
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: So three strands, one chord, Couple's Guide to Understanding Incarceration

641
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: Roberta and Alpha cleveand thank you for real man. Those

642
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 2: that the and it's this project Jennifer and Nemman, Morgan

643
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 2: and Jassie in Virginia, and you know Jason Flem and

644
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: Lourie pushing, praying, my wife, my kids, never complaim once,

645
00:34:14,280 --> 00:34:15,959
Speaker 2: move house to house, the house.

646
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 1: It was crazy crazy. In summer of twenty twenty, Jennifer,

647
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: you presented OL's case of innocence along with countless letters

648
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,680
Speaker 1: of support, and at that parle board hearing they voted

649
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 1: in favor of Al's release.

650
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 3: So in Ohio, the way it works is if you

651
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,800
Speaker 3: are recommended for parole and certain crimes, the victim's family

652
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 3: or the prosecutor has the opportunity to object. So that's

653
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:55,239
Speaker 3: what happened, and so then it goes to the full

654
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:57,640
Speaker 3: parole board. So there was ten members and we went

655
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 3: in person. Al was not there. It was me and

656
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:03,400
Speaker 3: his wife. We came in and spoke, and then Damon

657
00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 3: John spoke via the internet, and then you know, the victims'

658
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 3: family members were allowed to speak too. But it was

659
00:35:10,719 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 3: a really moving and overwhelming moment because one of the

660
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,000
Speaker 3: victim's family members actually spoke out in favor of parole

661
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: because she didn't think that they had done the crime either,

662
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 3: which just hearing that was overwhelming. So the whole parole

663
00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 3: board left and we just kind of had to sit

664
00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:28,759
Speaker 3: there and wait for them to make a decision, which

665
00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 3: was one of the longest times of waiting I think

666
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 3: I've ever felt. But they came back in and it

667
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,279
Speaker 3: was nine to one in favor of parole for him

668
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 3: and his codefendant, Lynworth Edwards was also up that day

669
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,680
Speaker 3: and so they both were granted it, And I mean,

670
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 3: it was just incredible knowing he was finally going to

671
00:35:45,960 --> 00:35:49,520
Speaker 3: come home. It was frustrating knowing he wasn't getting exonerated

672
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 3: or no one was acknowledging his innocence yet, but at

673
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 3: least he'd be home.

674
00:35:56,800 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: It's anti climactic in a sense because and this is

675
00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 1: important for the audience to hear, Al still hasn't been

676
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 1: declared actually innocent, which means he's not eligible for compensation.

677
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 1: He still has to be on parole, et cetera. Right,

678
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to put it out there right now. I mean,

679
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: I think we have to explore the possibility of getting

680
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:17,919
Speaker 1: an absolute pardon. You know, I will help in any

681
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:19,879
Speaker 1: way that I'm asked to. I don't want to get

682
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 1: in the way. I think the governor of Ohio is

683
00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: a reasonable and decent man.

684
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 3: Well, thank you. I will say that we're not done yet.

685
00:36:26,760 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 3: We think we've identified who actually did the crime, and

686
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 3: so you know, we're now in the position the only

687
00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 3: legal avenue he has forward at this point is if

688
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 3: we can solve the crime for the state and kind

689
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:39,719
Speaker 3: of take it to them, which is what we're working on.

690
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:43,799
Speaker 3: So stay tuned. Hopefully this isn't the end. Hopefully he

691
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,720
Speaker 3: will eventually get the exoneration he deserves.

692
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 1: Amen to that. And at this point we turn to

693
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,680
Speaker 1: the part where I first of all thank each of

694
00:36:54,719 --> 00:37:01,560
Speaker 1: you for being here and sharing this unbelievable And now

695
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 1: I'm going to introduce the closing of the show, which

696
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: is called closing arguments are probably enough. And this is

697
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 1: the part where I turn off my microphone, kick back

698
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:13,640
Speaker 1: in my chair, close my eyes, leave my headphones on,

699
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: and I turn it over to you first, Jennifer, for

700
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:18,920
Speaker 1: closing arguments, whatever you want to say, anything you think

701
00:37:18,960 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: that's left unsaid, and then we'll save the best for last,

702
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: and we'll go to you Al for your closing arguments,

703
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:27,080
Speaker 1: and that's how we'll end the show.

704
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 3: Well, I wanted to say thank you for having me

705
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 3: on today and listening to the story about we barely

706
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 3: scratch the surface of all the crazy twists and turns

707
00:37:38,320 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 3: of this case, but I appreciate you bringing this to

708
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,959
Speaker 3: the audience, and Al, I just wanted to say thank

709
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 3: you for believing in me over this whole time, even

710
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 3: when things haven't gone as we hoped. But I'm just

711
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 3: so delighted that you're home, and I'm so excited to

712
00:37:55,239 --> 00:37:56,960
Speaker 3: see all the good that you're doing in the world.

713
00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,880
Speaker 3: And I'm happy that other people now finally get to

714
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:02,720
Speaker 3: see what I've been able to see for the last

715
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,400
Speaker 3: eleven years that we've been working on this case together.

716
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 3: And I'm excited to see what comes in your future.

717
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: But also just a reminder that you can't do it

718
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 3: all in a day, because I know you're.

719
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:18,399
Speaker 4: Trying well, So Jennifer I want to First, I want

720
00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:18,879
Speaker 4: to thank you.

721
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 2: I want to thank Cassie. I want to thank Morgan.

722
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,960
Speaker 2: I want to thank Virginia. I want to thank Professor

723
00:38:24,080 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 2: Gatzi for you know, backing us, putting you in position

724
00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:31,400
Speaker 2: for taking the case, taking a huge burden off of

725
00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: me and my family, you know. Thank you. Second, Jason,

726
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 2: you talked about going to the governor for a pardon

727
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:42,279
Speaker 2: and helping in any way. You can thank you for that.

728
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 2: But I have two co defendants who are still incarcerated,

729
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,799
Speaker 2: Benson Davis and John Edwards, And if we went to

730
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,360
Speaker 2: the governor about anything, I would want the focus to

731
00:38:56,400 --> 00:39:00,319
Speaker 2: be them and their release because they're sitting in there

732
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 2: and poor boy days didn't come up like Lenny's and

733
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:07,880
Speaker 2: ours did. They're still in there and they don't deserve

734
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:12,520
Speaker 2: to be there, So any efforts in that area I

735
00:39:12,520 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: would love to be focused on them. I'm gonna be

736
00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 2: all right, bro, I'm gonna be okay, you know what

737
00:39:19,000 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 2: I mean? With them, And if anybody out there has

738
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:28,319
Speaker 2: any information, you know what a long shot this is

739
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 2: on a Wrongful Previction podcast. Who knows somebody might listen

740
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 2: to this and have some information about who really committed

741
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,359
Speaker 2: the crimes. We think we know the truth, we think

742
00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:42,239
Speaker 2: we know who did it, but we need confirmation, we

743
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 2: need concrete evidence. So please contact my lawyer at the

744
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:50,480
Speaker 2: Innocence Project, Jennifer. Please tell them your number or who

745
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 2: they can contact if you have any information, contact them

746
00:39:55,400 --> 00:39:58,000
Speaker 2: and let's get this over with so we can get

747
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,680
Speaker 2: these men out of prison. Jennifer, Please please tell me.

748
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:05,279
Speaker 3: Remember yeah, absolutely, the Ohio Innocence Project. You can reach

749
00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 3: us here at five one three five five six zero

750
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,400
Speaker 3: seven five to two. And I also wanted to just

751
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 3: add that the fact that you know you were given

752
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,880
Speaker 3: the chance to say anything after Jason, and your first

753
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 3: thought is to think of your two co defendants who

754
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:25,600
Speaker 3: are still in prison, I think tells everybody all they

755
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 3: need to know about your character.

756
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:28,319
Speaker 2: Appreciate that.

757
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flomm.

758
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the

759
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,880
Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help.

760
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn,

761
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:51,240
Speaker 1: and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always

762
00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:54,840
Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be

763
00:40:54,920 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and

764
00:40:58,239 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction. Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

765
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: Flamm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in

766
00:41:05,080 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one