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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you missed in History Class from how

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Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast Puck,

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Speaker 1: Tracy B. Wilson, and I'm Holly Fry. They we are

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Speaker 1: going to talk about the Honey War, was the dispute

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Speaker 1: that was fortunately not really a war. It led to

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Speaker 1: zero human casualties, and it wasn't particularly over honey either.

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Speaker 1: But it's a story that's full of silliness and pride

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Speaker 1: and obstinacy and bureaucracy, and it's kind of a goofy

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Speaker 1: story of weird land dispute. I felt like we needed

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Speaker 1: something to lighten the load up a little bit. So

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Speaker 1: similarly to the time that we did the one about

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Speaker 1: Popsicle and Good Humor suing each other a lot, this

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Speaker 1: one is about Missouri and Iowa bickering over where their

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Speaker 1: border was. I had hoped it was going to be

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Speaker 1: about Winnie the Pooh arguing with Rabbit, but it's not.

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Speaker 1: It comes off a little like that there. It's all

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Speaker 1: a listener request from Amy, and I know other people

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Speaker 1: have requested it also, But it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: where the name is so memorable that, uh, I didn't

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Speaker 1: I didn't write down any of the other people besides

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Speaker 1: Amy who asked for it. So, as Tracy had mentioned,

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Speaker 1: the Honey War was a dispute between Missouri and Iowa

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Speaker 1: in the eighteen thirties. Before Iowa officially became a state.

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Speaker 1: Missouri had been granted U S statehood on August tenth

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Speaker 1: of EE, and the setting of Missouri's northern border when

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Speaker 1: it became a state was at the heart of the

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Speaker 1: Honey War. Missouri's acceptance into the Union was kind of

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Speaker 1: a complicated matter because it wanted to join the Union

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Speaker 1: as a slave state. At that point, the United States

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Speaker 1: had eleven free states and eleven slave states, so there

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Speaker 1: was an equal power balance between the slave states and

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Speaker 1: the free states and Congress. A twelve slave state would

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Speaker 1: have tipped the balance of power in favor of the

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Speaker 1: slave states, which most of the free states and the

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Speaker 1: federal government were just not willing to allow. So if

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Speaker 1: Missouri was going to join the Union, a free state

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Speaker 1: needed to join the Union as well, and the free

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Speaker 1: state in question worked out to be Maine, which had

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Speaker 1: previously been part of Massachusetts before its residents voted to

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Speaker 1: separate from Massachusetts on July eighteen nineteen. Was not that

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Speaker 1: Maine and Missouri were basically admitted into the Union as

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Speaker 1: a slave state free state pair, with Maine being admitted

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Speaker 1: as a free state on March fifteenth of eighteen twenty

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Speaker 1: and then Missouri being admitted as a slave state on

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Speaker 1: August tenth of eighteen twenty one. Also part of this deal,

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Speaker 1: which is known as the Missouri Compromise, latitude thirty six

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Speaker 1: degrees thirty minutes, which was Missouri's southern border, was marked

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Speaker 1: as the border between where slavery would be allowed and

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Speaker 1: where it wouldn't Until the passage of the Kansas Nebraska

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Speaker 1: Act in eighteen fifty four, new states that were south

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Speaker 1: of Missouri's southern border would be slave states, and new

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Speaker 1: states that were north of that line would be free.

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Speaker 1: This was all part of the nation's ongoing efforts to

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Speaker 1: simultaneously keep slave states happy while preventing them from becoming

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Speaker 1: more powerful than the free states, which is why will

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Speaker 1: sometimes here agreements like the Missouri Compromise referred to as

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Speaker 1: appeasements and not compromises. Yeah, what the North actually got

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Speaker 1: out of this was not going to war. In most cases,

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Speaker 1: Missouri's northern border, which it would eventually share with Iowa,

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Speaker 1: had been marked out by surveyor John C. Sullivan in

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixteen, after Missouri's first petition to Congress to become

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Speaker 1: a state. Sullivan was a government appointed surveyor, and the

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Speaker 1: boundaries that he was delineating were between the soon to

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Speaker 1: be created state of Missouri and the o Sage Nation,

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Speaker 1: which had ceded that land to the United States in

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Speaker 1: eighteen o eight at the Treaty of Fort Clark. This

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Speaker 1: treaty is one of many that was weighted heavily in

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Speaker 1: favor of the United States, and the Sage Nation nation

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Speaker 1: had definitely agreed to it under duress and gotten very

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Speaker 1: little compensation for the land itself. Sullivan's work was to

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Speaker 1: be quite frank full of errors. He had one job

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Speaker 1: who was basically to draw a straight line across the

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Speaker 1: state one hundred miles north of the camp fluents of

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Speaker 1: the Kansas and Missouri Rivers. This line would stretch across

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Speaker 1: the state to the Des Moines River. This was both

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Speaker 1: a physical boundary on the ground and a line drawn

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Speaker 1: on a map. The first thing he did wrong was

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Speaker 1: basically to forget how to use a compass. Whoops, he

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Speaker 1: neglected to take into account that a compass needle points

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Speaker 1: to the planet's magnetic north pole, not true north, so

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Speaker 1: his measurements on the ground, where he was relying on

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Speaker 1: incorrect compass readings, didn't correspond to the line that he

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Speaker 1: drew on the map. He also marked the boundary itself

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Speaker 1: by pulling up mounds of dirt as he went. Some

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Speaker 1: accounts indicate that he used posts, but the most scholarly

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Speaker 1: of all the sources used for today's show say no,

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Speaker 1: it was mounds of earth. It was not posts. As

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Speaker 1: we just talked about in our podcast on the Schoolhouse Blizzard,

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Speaker 1: the weather in the American Midwest can be unpredictable and

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Speaker 1: prone to extremes, so piles of dirt cannot really be

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Speaker 1: expected to hold up to things like end and rain

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Speaker 1: and melting snow. And even if it was posts, they

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Speaker 1: were like small wooden posts at best, and that also

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Speaker 1: would not have held up very well with these kinds

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Speaker 1: of weather factors. This meant that between eighteen sixteen, when

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Speaker 1: Sullivan marked the boundary in eighteen twenty, when Missouri actually

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Speaker 1: officially became state, the physical markers of the state's northern border,

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Speaker 1: which was known as the Sullivan Line or the Indian Line,

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Speaker 1: were basically destroyed the official description of where the border

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Speaker 1: lay was that it was it was a parallel which

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Speaker 1: quote passed through the rapids of the des Moines River.

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Speaker 1: Number One, that's not a lot of very precise detail

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Speaker 1: about where this line was. Number Two, the rapids he

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Speaker 1: was talking about, We're not on the des Moines River.

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Speaker 1: They were on the Mississippi River. Oh Sullivan uh. In

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Speaker 1: eighteen thirty seven, seventeen years after Missouri became a state,

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Speaker 1: another surveyor resurveyed the state's northern border to try to

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Speaker 1: correct the errors in the Sullivan line. This new servant

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Speaker 1: was also meant to remark the now completely unmarked border

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Speaker 1: with more durable markers. The governor, Lilburn W. Boggs, commissioned

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Speaker 1: Joseph C. Brown to do this work. It's a little

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Speaker 1: unclear whether he ordered Brown to find and remark Sullivan's

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Speaker 1: boundary or to start from scratch, but regardless, what he

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Speaker 1: did was start by trying to find the rapids that

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Speaker 1: Sullivan had described in his original survey. The problem was,

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Speaker 1: there were really not any rapids in this part of

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Speaker 1: the river. And as we know, it's because he apparently

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Speaker 1: said des Moines River when he meant Mississippi River, so

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Speaker 1: not knowing that, Brown made the call to start out

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Speaker 1: with some slightly rippling water he managed to find, which

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Speaker 1: was sixty three miles away from the mouth of the

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Speaker 1: Des Moines River. With that as a starting point, Brown

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Speaker 1: resurveyed the border, ending up with a line that was

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Speaker 1: between nine and thirteen miles north of Sullivan's line, because

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Speaker 1: while it was supposed to run along a parallel, it

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Speaker 1: wasn't actually parallel. As a result, there were now two

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Speaker 1: possible locations from Missouri's northern border, the Sullivan line to

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Speaker 1: the south and the Brown line to the north. So

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Speaker 1: we've said that this was this was a dispute between

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Speaker 1: Missouri and Iowa, and it was, but at this point

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Speaker 1: Iowa was part of Wisconsin territory. With this confusion about

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Speaker 1: the two lines, Wisconsin asked the federal government to officially

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Speaker 1: declare which border was the right one, but Congress didn't

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Speaker 1: elect to do so until Iowa actually became its own

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Speaker 1: territory separate from Wisconsin on June twelfth, eight Congress did

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Speaker 1: not accept either the Brown line or the Sullivan line

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Speaker 1: as the true northern border of Missouri, though it instead

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Speaker 1: established a three member commission to sort the whole thing out,

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Speaker 1: with the federal government Iowa and Missouri each appointing one

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Speaker 1: member of the commission. Each member was supposed to survey

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Speaker 1: the line again and report back to the Commissioner of

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Speaker 1: the General Land Office. However, only two of the three

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Speaker 1: member commission actually showed up to do this work. One

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Speaker 1: was from the ear Old government, one was appointed by Iowa.

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Speaker 1: This was because Governor Box of Missouri refused to participate

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Speaker 1: in this exercise. I have to say, it sounds like

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Speaker 1: the like a pretty good solution, doesn't seem like a balanced,

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Speaker 1: pretty fair way to approach. Get together, work it out.

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Speaker 1: There's a running theme in this whole story of get together,

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Speaker 1: work it out to be grown ups. I'msking too much. Uh.

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Speaker 1: These two surveyors that did show up worked together through

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Speaker 1: much of the fall of eighty eight, but in the

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Speaker 1: end they didn't actually choose between the Brown and Sullivan lines. Instead,

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Speaker 1: they came up with four options for Missouri's northern border

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Speaker 1: from north to south. They were number one, the Brown line,

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Speaker 1: which Missouri claimed was the correct boundary. Number two, the

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Speaker 1: line Sullivan had incorrectly marked in eighteen sixteen, as it

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Speaker 1: was incorrectly marked, which the commission really thought was a

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Speaker 1: fair and reasonable place to put it. Number three was

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Speaker 1: the corrected Sullivan line, as it should have in if

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Speaker 1: Sullivan had done his job correctly. And then number four

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Speaker 1: was Iowa's preferred location of the border, which was sort

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Speaker 1: of an unmarked hypothetical line where the Brown line would

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Speaker 1: have been if it had started with the actual rapids

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Speaker 1: on the Mississippi River from Sullivan's original survey, not the

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Speaker 1: slightly rippling water on the Des Moines River from Brown's

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Speaker 1: later survey. Obviously, Missouri's preference of the Brown line gave

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Speaker 1: it more territory in Iowa less, and Iowa's preferred line

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Speaker 1: gave it more territory and Missouri less. The official report

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Speaker 1: to the Commissioner of the General Land Office supposed that

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Speaker 1: the Sullivan line, as it her had originally been incorrectly marked,

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Speaker 1: would probably be acceptable to both Missouri and Iowa. Albert

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Speaker 1: Miller Lee, who wrote the report, didn't really think the

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Speaker 1: correct version of that line was legal or equitable. I mean,

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Speaker 1: at this point it was a line that existed in theory,

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Speaker 1: but nobody could ever used it as a border. He

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Speaker 1: also refused to state whether Iowa's preferred line or the

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Speaker 1: Brown line, was the better order, although Iowa and Missouri

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Speaker 1: clearly both had strong opinions on this issue. Even though

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Speaker 1: it had not elected to send a surveyor to act

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Speaker 1: as part of this team, Missouri made the next move

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Speaker 1: in this bureaucratic back and forth, and we're going to

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Speaker 1: talk about that a bunch after we have a brief

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Speaker 1: ord from a sponsor with the report to the Commissioner

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Speaker 1: of the General Land Office turned in. Missouri declared that

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Speaker 1: its territory extended to the Brown line, the northernmost of

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Speaker 1: all of these potential boundary lines that we talked about

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Speaker 1: before the break, and then it started sending its tax

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Speaker 1: men in to start assessing the land between the Selivan

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Speaker 1: line and the Brown line for tax purposes. Someone sounds

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Speaker 1: like a cartoon about bureaucracy at this point, just picturing

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Speaker 1: a bunch of dudes tramping through the same space and

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Speaker 1: pointing to things and grim saying that's exactly what it was. Uh.

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Speaker 1: The twelve thousand or so people who were living in

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Speaker 1: this roughly two thousand, five hundred acres of land, though

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Speaker 1: mostly thought of themselves as Iowan's, they were not at

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Speaker 1: all happy when Missouri tax officials started showing up to

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Speaker 1: assess their property for the purposes of a Missouri tax.

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Speaker 1: The Iowans who were living between the Sullivan and Brown

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Speaker 1: lines got together and they sent a delegation to talk

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Speaker 1: to Iowa Governor Robert Lucas. On July thirty nine, Governor

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Speaker 1: Lucas issued a proclamation demanding that Missouri stopped trying to

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Speaker 1: tax Iowa citizens and basically tell them to get back

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Speaker 1: on their side of the Sullivan line. He also called

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Speaker 1: for Iowa officials in the area to maintain control of

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Speaker 1: the disputed territory, which he felt like was part of Iowa.

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Speaker 1: In August, Governor Boggs of Missouri then issued his own proclamation,

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Speaker 1: basically declaring that it had the right to do whatever

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Speaker 1: it wanted because that land was part of Missouri and

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Speaker 1: not Iowa. In September, Iowa asserted itself once again, insisting

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Speaker 1: that the border stopped at the Sullivan line, having apparently

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Speaker 1: given up on the idea of a border even farther

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Speaker 1: to the south. Sheriffs and tax officials from Missouri who

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Speaker 1: went north of the Sullivan line to try to collect

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Speaker 1: taxes or enforced Missouri law were met with anger and

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Speaker 1: derision by the people who were living there, who still,

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Speaker 1: as we've said before, considered themselves to be island. And

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Speaker 1: as all of this was going on, someone went into

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Speaker 1: the disputed territory and they cut down three or four

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Speaker 1: hollow trees that honey bees were nesting in. Be trees

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Speaker 1: were a precious commodity. Honey was expensive, so people who

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Speaker 1: managed to find and harvest from b trees could really

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Speaker 1: make a tidy profit off of doing so. Bees wax

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Speaker 1: was also really important for candle making and other uses

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Speaker 1: we've talked about on the podcast before. Candles at one

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Speaker 1: point were very valuable, so unless you happen to stumble

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Speaker 1: onto one. The process of finding a bee tree was

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Speaker 1: also really difficult. You had to track wild bees sometimes

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Speaker 1: for miles just to be able to locate these trees.

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Speaker 1: So cutting down multiple be trees that people already knew

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Speaker 1: about was a big deal. You know. There were little

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Speaker 1: boxes that people we used for this whole bee tracking.

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Speaker 1: So I saw one at the Woodman Institute Museum in

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Speaker 1: thever New Hampshire, which has inspired another podcast, the one

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Speaker 1: on the cohico Man skirt Um. It's basically a little

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Speaker 1: box and you would tempt to be into the air

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Speaker 1: with something sugary, and then when you let the be out,

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Speaker 1: you would follow it in the direction that it goes,

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Speaker 1: because these usually go back to their hive in a

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Speaker 1: straight line, right, and so if you lost track, if

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Speaker 1: you lost sight of the bee, you would have to

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Speaker 1: like tempt another be another B and start over um

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Speaker 1: or or maybe if you had a really good compass reading,

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Speaker 1: you could just walk in a direction and hope that

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Speaker 1: you got to the right be there's a hole, or

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Speaker 1: you could hope that it was a bee from the

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Speaker 1: same hive and each time you stopped they were going

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Speaker 1: to lead you closer. But you could end up on

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Speaker 1: a really crazy goo' not on a weird rabbit hunt,

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Speaker 1: a series of different be trees. So yeah, they're like

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Speaker 1: people had whole methods for tracking beans and like timing

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Speaker 1: how long it took a B to go from your

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Speaker 1: little box that you made to wherever it's mystery have

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Speaker 1: was and then back. So yeah, if you think it's

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Speaker 1: probably difficult to track wild bees, yes, these are hard

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Speaker 1: to keep up with. They fly and are small, and

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Speaker 1: they don't like report in. It's also, I mean, to

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Speaker 1: be really honest, It's kind of unclear who cut down

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Speaker 1: these be trees. We don't know who cut them down. However,

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Speaker 1: the story is that Missourians cut down the bea trees.

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Speaker 1: Iowan's totally knew innately that it was somebody from Missouri.

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Speaker 1: Nobody from Iowa would do that. There are not any

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Speaker 1: court records to support this, but the story is that

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Speaker 1: Iowa then tried this unknown person or persons in absentia

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Speaker 1: and then find them a dollar in fifty cents. Whether

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Speaker 1: this really happened is kind of unclear, but the story

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Speaker 1: that it had happened spread. So Iowa was furious at

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Speaker 1: Missouri for cutting down the bea trees, and Missouri was

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Speaker 1: furious that Iowa for trying its citizens who were not

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Speaker 1: even present for the trial in a court in which

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Speaker 1: they did not even have any jurisdiction. Sheriff Gregory, who

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Speaker 1: was one of the Missourians who had previously tried to

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Speaker 1: enforce the law north of the Sullivan line, made another

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Speaker 1: trip across that line to try to collect taxes. He

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Speaker 1: was arrested and jailed by an Iowa sheriff, and his

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Speaker 1: disappearance led some Missourians to believe that he had been kidnapped,

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Speaker 1: which is when Governor Boggs called in the militia. This

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Speaker 1: is all like such a terrible telephony gossip b schoolyard

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Speaker 1: situation at this point. Meanwhile, in Iowa, the Legislative Assembly

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Speaker 1: passed a resolution in November insisting that the two governors

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Speaker 1: meet and work it out between themselves. Governor Governor Lucas,

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Speaker 1: who was the governor of Iowa, on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: he vetoed that resolution and said that it was the

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Speaker 1: United States that needed to do the working out and

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Speaker 1: not the individual states themselves. So then on not on

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Speaker 1: November thirty nine, Governor Lucas ordered General David Willock and

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Speaker 1: General O. H. Allen to form a militia as well,

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Speaker 1: for the purpose of resisting Missouri. It is completely unclear

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Speaker 1: exactly how large either of these militias were. Estimates for

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Speaker 1: both are all over the map, from the hundreds to

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Speaker 1: the thousands. However, the general consensus is that Missouri's militia

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Speaker 1: was bigger than Iowa's, and Iowa's wasn't really mustard until

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Speaker 1: this was all pretty much over. Both militias were also

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Speaker 1: pretty rag tag. The men were responsible for their own weapons,

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Speaker 1: which meant they were full of assorted odds and ends,

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Speaker 1: some of them dating all the way back to the

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Speaker 1: War of eighteen twelve. Some of the stranger weapons that

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Speaker 1: have been noted on the Iowa side of this conflict

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Speaker 1: included a six ft long sword that was cut out

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Speaker 1: of a piece of metal, a dasher from a butter

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Speaker 1: churn that's the thing that you turn up and down

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Speaker 1: to make better, and a sausage stuffer. Even though tensions

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Speaker 1: had been high among the Iowan's actually living in the

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Speaker 1: disputed territory, most of the men in the militia weren't

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Speaker 1: local to that little strip of land, and they didn't

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Speaker 1: really care. Most had joined up because it was winter

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Speaker 1: and they needed the money, which meant that morale was

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Speaker 1: poor and desertions were many. The Missouri militia, on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, was so poorly provisioned that at one point

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Speaker 1: it resorted to robbing a store to get food and blankets. Eventually,

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Speaker 1: Thomas A. Anderson of Missouri did what seems like the

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Speaker 1: only sensible thing in this story so far. He advocated

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Speaker 1: for a Missouri Iowa Commission to be formed to work

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Speaker 1: this whole thing out. In his words, quote in the

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Speaker 1: name of God of mercy and justice. Gentlemen, let this

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Speaker 1: monumental piece of absurdity, this monumental but cruel blundering, have

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Speaker 1: an end. Someone. It's not entirely clear who, since both

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Speaker 1: Missouri and Iowa claimed that it was them, drafted a

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Speaker 1: resolution on December twelfth, nine requesting that both governors step

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Speaker 1: away from this issue and for real hand it over

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Speaker 1: to the federal government. Basically, kids, stop fighting, give it

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Speaker 1: to mom and dad. At last, the two states agreed

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Speaker 1: to do so, which put an end to the need

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Speaker 1: for militia on either side. While the Iowa militia didn't

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Speaker 1: particularly care about the conflict in play, the Missouri militia

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Speaker 1: was apparently angry that their opportunity to fight had been

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Speaker 1: taken away from them. They split aside of Venison into

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Speaker 1: two halves, named each one after one of the respective governors,

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Speaker 1: and shot them both to bits, and then both bilases

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Speaker 1: eventually disbanded and went home. I'm so angry that they

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Speaker 1: were so angry they shot up a deer carcass. Apparently

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Speaker 1: they buried it afterward with like a very like, very formal,

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Speaker 1: serious funeral, as you do after you've had a weird

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Speaker 1: Tantremy shootout with a deer carcass. After all this odd

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Speaker 1: back and forth, the federal government finally did get involved,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about that after we have

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Speaker 1: a word from one of our fabulous sponsors. So we

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Speaker 1: off your first purchase square space. You should. Even though

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Speaker 1: both states had agreed on a resolution to have Congress

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Speaker 1: settled the issue where their border should be, Governor Boggs,

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Speaker 1: the same man who had refused to participate in the

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Speaker 1: Commission to resurvey the border, also refused to cooperate with

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Speaker 1: the federal government. Is pitted Iowa and Missouri against one

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Speaker 1: another in Congress for the next six years. There was

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Speaker 1: also more at stake in this boundary issue than just

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Speaker 1: b trees and hurt feelings. The Missouri boundary was moved north,

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Speaker 1: the territory where slavery was allowed would also move north.

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Speaker 1: This would put Iolands, who thought they were living in

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Speaker 1: a free state instead in a slave state, and many

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Speaker 1: of them considered this idea to be absolutely abhorrent. In

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Speaker 1: the middle of all this, Iowa became an actual state

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Speaker 1: on December eighty six. Florida, a slave state, had been

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Speaker 1: admitted to the Union in eighteen forty five, so that

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Speaker 1: once again maintained the fifty fifty slave state, free state split. Finally,

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Speaker 1: after Iowa had become a state, Congress suggested Iowa and

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Speaker 1: Missouri turn it over to the Supreme Court for a

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Speaker 1: definitive answer. The suit was brought before the Court in

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Speaker 1: eighteen forty seven, and, in the words of the Court quote,

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Speaker 1: a great mass of evidence was taken on both sides.

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Speaker 1: This evidence included a number of smaller shifts and seated

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Speaker 1: land that we did not go into in this podcast.

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Speaker 1: If the whole court opinion exists on the internet, you

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Speaker 1: can read it uh and read how exasperated that it sounds.

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Speaker 1: Justice John Catron, speaking for the Court, delivered the court's

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Speaker 1: opinion on April six, eighteen forty nine. It said, among

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Speaker 1: other things, quote, and this Court doth therefore see proper

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Speaker 1: to decree, and doth accordingly order a judge and decree

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Speaker 1: that the true and proper northern boundary line and of

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Speaker 1: the State of Missouri, and the true southern boundary of

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Speaker 1: the State of Iowa, is the line run and marked

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Speaker 1: in eighteen sixteen by John C. Sullivan as the Indian

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Speaker 1: boundary from the northwest corner made by said Sullivan, extending

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Speaker 1: eastwardly as he ran and marked the said line to

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Speaker 1: the middle of the Des Moines River, and that a

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Speaker 1: line due west from said northwest corner to the middle

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Speaker 1: of the Missouri River is the proper dividing line between

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Speaker 1: said states west of the after said corner, And that

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Speaker 1: the states of Missouri and Iowa are bound to conform

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Speaker 1: their jurisdictions up to said line on their respective sides thereof,

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Speaker 1: from the River des Moines to the River Missouri. In

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Speaker 1: other words, the court rule that the Sullivan line was

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Speaker 1: the right one, due in part to the many existing

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Speaker 1: treaties with the O s Age Nation that used that

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Speaker 1: line as a border, along with the Missouri State Constitution

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Speaker 1: and other official documents. So, I know, we've talked about

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Speaker 1: a lot of different lines here. So just to make

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Speaker 1: it totally clear that originally incorrect marked border made with

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Speaker 1: compass readings that we're pointing to the magnetic north instead

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Speaker 1: of true north, like, that was the one that we

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Speaker 1: went And as as I look at this, I was thinking,

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Speaker 1: so the moral of the story is do a bad

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Speaker 1: job and that will be fine. Ah yeah. And also

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Speaker 1: if you if you were you kind of zoned out

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Speaker 1: with all of the kind of weighty language. The court

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Speaker 1: at the end of that little statement we just read

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Speaker 1: also pretty clearly said that Missouri needed to knock it

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Speaker 1: off with its attempts to collect taxes and enforce law

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Speaker 1: north of the Sullivan line. Joseph C. Brown of missour

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Speaker 1: Urry and Henry B. Hendershot of Iowa were appointed to

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Speaker 1: work together to find the Sullivan line and market for real.

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Speaker 1: This time, not with tiny sticks or mounds of dirt.

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Speaker 1: They used cast iron pillars four ft six inches tall,

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Speaker 1: marked with Iowa on one side and Missouri on the

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Speaker 1: other and state line down the sides. One was placed

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Speaker 1: every ten miles, and Missouri and Iowa split the cost

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Speaker 1: of this endeavors. So there's so much detail that is

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Speaker 1: in there about like having the state's names marked on

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Speaker 1: each side. It. I know, I know, I know. We

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Speaker 1: have lots of listeners in both of these states, and

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Speaker 1: I'm sure everyone is proud of their states. It is

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Speaker 1: still extremely funny, this whole situation, and it really reminds

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Speaker 1: me of when parents mark the line down, quarrel quarreling

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00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: children's bedrooms with tape. Yeah, that was a Happy Days

434
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: episode two, I think. And I am going to be

435
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: totally candid here as I was, as I was looking for.

436
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: We're a topic for today's episode. I are nearly landed

437
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:05,320
Speaker 1: on a similarly squabbly, back and forth kind of childish

438
00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 1: uh incident from the history of my home state, which

439
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: is North Carolina. So this is everywhere. Yeah, we're not,

440
00:24:14,240 --> 00:24:18,840
Speaker 1: you know, trying to rip on. I bet every state

441
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,919
Speaker 1: has some equally absurd event in its history, quite a

442
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 1: lot of them. Uh. Sadly, to get back to this

443
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 1: resurveying and marking of the line with people's names on

444
00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: or with the state's names on each side, Brown actually

445
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: died before this work was complete, so Robert W. Wells

446
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 1: was appointed as his replacement. In there was yet another

447
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 1: resurvey of this boundary line running from mile post forty

448
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 1: to mile post sixty east. Granted, markers were at that

449
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:49,760
Speaker 1: point placed every mile along this piece of the boundary,

450
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 1: apparently even though they used these cast iron pillars that

451
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: were four ft six inches tall apiece, which is well

452
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,760
Speaker 1: over a meter. Yeah. Um. With all of the weather

453
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 1: and erosion and the fact that a lot of this

454
00:25:04,040 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 1: is basically in river soil, uh, a lot of these

455
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,280
Speaker 1: pillars are hard to find even today. They've been covered

456
00:25:11,359 --> 00:25:15,360
Speaker 1: up by shifting dirt and shifting silt and stuff like that.

457
00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 1: So maybe we'll have another argument about whose boundary is where? Yea,

458
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 1: except now we can use satellite imaging and all kinds

459
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: of new things to argue with well. And one of

460
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: one of the things that I read, uh I more accurately,

461
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 1: one of the things I skimmed as I was looking

462
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: into this was basically a Modern Surveyors article about having

463
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 1: like looked for this line using you know, g I

464
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 1: S systems and something like that. So that was pretty cool.

465
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,720
Speaker 1: Apparently this is a line that still interests people quite

466
00:25:48,760 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: a lot. Do you also have some listener mail for us? I?

467
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,320
Speaker 1: Do I have a completely different answer to the question

468
00:25:56,720 --> 00:26:00,560
Speaker 1: of why is this Egyptian pharaoh's name is entered into

469
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: completely different ways from our Unearthed in twenty fift episodes. Um,

470
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: you may remember recently we read a listener mail from

471
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: a non Egyptologist but egypt history enthusiast. Today we have

472
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: one from an egypt Egyptologistay was from Katherine, and Katherine says, Hi,

473
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 1: Holly and Tracy, I'm a little late in catching up

474
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,720
Speaker 1: with your most recent episode, so you may have already

475
00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:23,480
Speaker 1: gotten an answer to this question. However, just in case

476
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: you haven't. In your Unearthed in part one episode, you

477
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,879
Speaker 1: Ladies asked for a knowledgeable egyptologist to weigh in on

478
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,680
Speaker 1: a confusion over the spelling of Kent Kawe thirds husband

479
00:26:34,280 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 1: husband's name uh nefre fray or rd f Reth. While

480
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 1: I am no longer in act an act of egyptologist

481
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:45,359
Speaker 1: and far from the most knowledgeable, I can tell you

482
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 1: that the wacky anagram switcher you noticed and the spelling

483
00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 1: of the king's name is the result of honorific transposition,

484
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,720
Speaker 1: a unique feature of the hiero glyphic hieroglyphic language. In

485
00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:59,200
Speaker 1: honorific transposition, the glyphs within a word or sentence are

486
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:03,160
Speaker 1: intentionally based out of phonetic slash grammatical order in order

487
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 1: to pay homage to the gods or kings whose names

488
00:27:06,359 --> 00:27:09,399
Speaker 1: are represented by the glyphs by putting those glyphs first.

489
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,399
Speaker 1: That means that even though the phray phrase name is

490
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 1: spelled with the solar disc ray lift coming first, it

491
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 1: may not necessarily be pronounced with that phonetic value first.

492
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,560
Speaker 1: With intentional misordering has caused a lot of confusion in

493
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:27,000
Speaker 1: modern translations. By convention, all pharaoh's names spell out words

494
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 1: or phrases, often devotional the different gods. Many Pharis names

495
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 1: contain the name of the god Ray or Raw spelled

496
00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:36,719
Speaker 1: with the left first, but are pronounced with the ray

497
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,160
Speaker 1: somewhere else in the word, and this is borne out

498
00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 1: by the grammatical correctness of the phrasing of a particular

499
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,120
Speaker 1: name in the Phray phrase name or in the Phray

500
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 1: phrase case, his name is an A B nominal sentence,

501
00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: which essentially means that it can correctly spell out the

502
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 1: phrase his beauty is ray or Ray is his beauty

503
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 1: ref This interchangeability means that is more ambiguous whether the

504
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: race should be moved to the end of his name

505
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 1: or not. This is probably the main reason by their

506
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: inconsistencies across different sources. For more detail or just some

507
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,960
Speaker 1: additional examples, we can take a look at this quick

508
00:28:10,960 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 1: and dirty article I wrote for Cora and spelling to that,

509
00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:15,919
Speaker 1: which we will put in our show notes. Keep up

510
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:17,679
Speaker 1: the great work on your excellent podcast, and let me

511
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 1: know if you ever need any other Egyptology advising. And

512
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 1: then Catherine sends an actual image of the hieroglyphic spelling

513
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 1: of the spharaoh's name Um, which was meant to be

514
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,200
Speaker 1: read from top to bottom. I am pretty certain that

515
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:35,240
Speaker 1: because of the age of the Egyptian language and the

516
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: fact that it is so fundamentally different from English, there

517
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: are probably multiple factors in play and why these names

518
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,840
Speaker 1: are also confusing. Yes, and the Egyptian language evolved as well.

519
00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:48,400
Speaker 1: It wasn't like it stayed static and we could suss

520
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 1: it out, sort of like how English also has evolved,

521
00:28:51,320 --> 00:28:56,440
Speaker 1: but no way. Languages and live. When we first started

522
00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: working on this podcast, and I had my very very

523
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: list of uh of ideas talk about on the show. Um,

524
00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:06,920
Speaker 1: one of the things that I had down was like

525
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,040
Speaker 1: the Great vowel Shift, which was basically the English language

526
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: tilting in the way that it pronounced vowels. Announced There's

527
00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,040
Speaker 1: a lot of weird stuff in the history of the

528
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: English language. And then I decided that was maybe a

529
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: little too inside baseball for our history podcast. We've never

530
00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 1: done it. Uh So, Yeah, thank you so much Catherine

531
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: for writing us that note. UM, if you would like

532
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 1: to write to us about this or any other podcast

533
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 1: where history podcasts at how stuff Works dot com. We're

534
00:29:36,640 --> 00:29:39,040
Speaker 1: also on Facebook at facebook dot com slash miss in

535
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 1: History and on Twitter atness in History. Cart tumbler is

536
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 1: miss in History dot tumbler dot com or on Pinterest

537
00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,560
Speaker 1: at pinterest dot com slash miss in history. If you've

538
00:29:46,600 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 1: noticed the theme miss in history, you're looking for us

539
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: on social media. That's probably the name that we have picked. Uh.

540
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: If you would like to learn more about something that

541
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: we talked a little bit about today but not as

542
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: much as I might have liked, you can go up

543
00:29:59,880 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: to our parent companies website, which is how stuff works

544
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,600
Speaker 1: dot com and put the word bees in the search bar.

545
00:30:04,960 --> 00:30:08,120
Speaker 1: You will find how bees Work. I'm very fond of bees,

546
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 1: and that was sad they did not actually have a

547
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 1: bigger presence in the Honey War. You can also come

548
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: to our website, which is missed in history dot com,

549
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,320
Speaker 1: and you will find show notes for all the episodes

550
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: that Holly and I have done, an archive of every

551
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: episode we have ever done. We have handy other things

552
00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: on there, like all the myriad ways to contact us

553
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 1: in one handy page. You can do all that and

554
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,240
Speaker 1: a whole lot more at how stuff works dot com

555
00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 1: or missed in History dot com. For lare on this

556
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics because it has stuff works

557
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:53,320
Speaker 1: dot com