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Speaker 1: So it used to be Moscow would align or look

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Speaker 1: for willing or perhaps unwitting agents of influence and agents

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Speaker 1: on the political left, anti imperialists, anti American socialist types.

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Speaker 1: Now they're sinking their teeth into conservatives, people who believe

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Speaker 1: in blood and soil nationalism. So in a way, when

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Speaker 1: MAGA came into being, it was cream cheese for the Russians.

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Speaker 2: I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry o'she. I served in

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Speaker 2: the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover

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Speaker 2: all around the world.

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Speaker 3: And in my thirty three years with the CIA, I

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Speaker 3: served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we

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Speaker 2: created conspiracies in our operations.

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Speaker 3: We got people to believe things that weren't true.

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Speaker 2: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the

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Speaker 2: news almost every day.

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Speaker 3: We'll break them down for you to determine whether they

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Speaker 3: could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Mission implausible. So last week we spoke to

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Speaker 2: journalists and author an expert on Russian intelligence, Michael Weiss,

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Speaker 2: about Russian conspiracies throughout history and how they've used their

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Speaker 2: intelligence services to weaponize against the West and others. And

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Speaker 2: this week we're going to talk with him about some

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Speaker 2: things that have just happened recently where Russian intelligence was

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Speaker 2: spreading money to right wing extremists social media people to

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Speaker 2: spread conspiracy theory. So it was a conspiracy to spread

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Speaker 2: conspiracy theories into our political system. And there were a

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Speaker 2: number of these sort of right wing social media folks,

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Speaker 2: some with large followers on YouTube and Twitter and other places,

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Speaker 2: that were essentially getting paid quite a bit of money

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Speaker 2: by Russian intelligence.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, they claim not to know, but it was hundreds

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Speaker 4: of thousands a month for some of them for YouTube

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Speaker 4: videos that got very few views.

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Speaker 2: Well, Adam Adam Waite, some of them got quite a

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Speaker 2: lot of views. And in fact, they interviewed Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: So I mean, these guys, you know, like a couple

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Speaker 2: of them are like had eighth grade educations, and they

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Speaker 2: were spreading things about civil war and election deny and

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Speaker 2: all this kind of stuff. But actually Donald Trump went

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Speaker 2: on the show with one of these guys and did

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Speaker 2: an interview. And these guys, their whole shtick is that

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Speaker 2: their shadowy figure is controlling strings behind the scenes. But

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Speaker 2: then when these guys it probably had never made more

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Speaker 2: than thirty thousand dollars a year. Someone came to and

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Speaker 2: provided them four hundred thousand dollars a week to spreads

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Speaker 2: things a shy.

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Speaker 4: Figure, shattery figure show.

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Speaker 2: So if they didn't know if they were Russian, and

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Speaker 2: they certainly knew something was.

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Speaker 4: Up, although that in a way is a proof of

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Speaker 4: the success, right, Like, part of Russia's goal is this corrosive,

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Speaker 4: removing trust and confidence in the media and elected officials

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Speaker 4: and in any voice of authority. So if you have

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Speaker 4: people so cynical that they would take the money, maybe

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Speaker 4: they're thinking, well, that's what MSNBC does. MSNBC does not

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Speaker 4: do that, but in their mind that's what they're thinking,

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Speaker 4: we might as well get ours, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're both useful and idiots, right.

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Speaker 4: To quote a phrase, Yeah yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: And one of these same guys, days after it came

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Speaker 2: out and there's an indictment and it became clear that

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Speaker 2: he was taking Russian money, is still promoting stuff.

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Speaker 4: Now when you have that much money, My mind does

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Speaker 4: go to was this a sophisticated op run by really

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Speaker 4: smart people in Moscow? Or was this a bunch of

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Speaker 4: bottom feeders who knew how to get money from Russia.

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Speaker 4: I'm talking about the middle people who paid the people off.

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Speaker 4: They were like, oh, we're going to come up with

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Speaker 4: this kind of BS scam. So it was a two

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Speaker 4: way scam. They were scamming Russia and scamming the US

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Speaker 4: just to get some commission or some bit of the payment.

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Speaker 2: What do you think, Well, what's upsetting to me is

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Speaker 2: how easy it is. So for Russia, it's really not

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Speaker 2: very much money. It creates an incredible amount of problems

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Speaker 2: in our political system. And it's not hard to find

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Speaker 2: these people. They're out there. If you just look through

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Speaker 2: social media, people are willing to say the most awful things.

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Speaker 2: And if you want to just keep them saying them,

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Speaker 2: or pump a few bits of information into them, because

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Speaker 2: they'll say anything, it's not a hard operation to run. It.

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Speaker 3: As an intelligence officer, the easiest operations to run of

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Speaker 3: the most simple. You find a couple of schlubs who

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Speaker 3: will do your bidding, and that is actually the easiest

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Speaker 3: with sophisticated.

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Speaker 4: Cutout literally how I put this podcast together.

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Speaker 3: But it's funny because the CIA and I've got to

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Speaker 3: be very careful about false eclipmans. Here the CIA famously

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Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties was involved in almost the same thing,

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Speaker 3: except with radio for Europe. It was getting people to

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Speaker 3: tell the truth, and they were scrupulous in making sure

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Speaker 3: that the stories were actually true and going in behind

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Speaker 3: then the iron curtain, and people believed it because it

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Speaker 3: was true. This is like vastly different.

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Speaker 2: What's happened is a lot of the things that we

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Speaker 2: saw in twenty sixteen that Russians have been doing for

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Speaker 2: years and years were really tested, and it pushed in

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Speaker 2: Ukraine before twenty fourteen and after, and then a lot

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Speaker 2: of the stuff that we've seen subsequently was pushed in Europe.

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Speaker 2: So in Europe they've spent a rush day made the

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Speaker 2: Russian intelligence spent a lot of money on European media.

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Speaker 2: But also they've paid off politicians, they've bought lawyers, they've

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Speaker 2: provided money to right wing and left wing extremist groups.

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Speaker 2: Is there more Are there politicians that are getting money

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Speaker 2: and or somehow getting this information, because there's a number

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Speaker 2: of politicians that are saying exactly the same things that

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Speaker 2: these social media influence are. Is there a direct connection

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Speaker 2: there or are they just hearing it in other places

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Speaker 2: and spreading it By.

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Speaker 4: The way in twenty twelve. These two guys, once Russian American,

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Speaker 4: the others just American. But they came back from being

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Speaker 4: journalists quote unquote journalists in Russia. They were hanging around

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Speaker 4: with Matt Taibi. They had this newspaper with him, and

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Speaker 4: they came to the US and started this thing called

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Speaker 4: the Shame Project where they were revealing how elite American

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Speaker 4: journalists were just tools of oligarchic capitalism. And they picked

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Speaker 4: five journals and I was one of them. So that's

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Speaker 4: why this stands out. Congratulations, thank you, And it did

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Speaker 4: cause a fair bit of stress for me for a

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Speaker 4: few days where they wrote out, I mean it was

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Speaker 4: total nonsense, totally untrue about how I had sold rights

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Speaker 4: to like I'd sold my soul and planet money to

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Speaker 4: this bank, and they put together this dossier on me

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Speaker 4: that was like I once spoke at a micro finance

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Speaker 4: conference that happened to be at JP Morgan. So they

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Speaker 4: had a website Adam Davidson at JP Morgan. They said

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Speaker 4: that was the day where JP Morgan bribed Adam to

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Speaker 4: It was utterly ridiculous. To my frustration, NPR, my employer

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Speaker 4: at the time, told me, I couldn't respond and say

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Speaker 4: it was munch of nonsense, and it just sat there.

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Speaker 4: It was a little alarming, but it didn't get a

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Speaker 4: lot of buzz. But then RT Russia Today had a

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Speaker 4: huge segment on it, and that inspired somebody actually at

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Speaker 4: Jared Kushner's paper at the time, the New york Er

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Speaker 4: over to write a piece that sort of repeated these

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Speaker 4: slanders and that somehow gave it intimacy.

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Speaker 2: It makes its way into the media food chain. Just

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Speaker 2: to give you a little heads up. So I was

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Speaker 2: in Moscow living in Moscow when Mark Ames and Matt

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Speaker 2: Taibi had their newspaper there called The Exile, which was

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Speaker 2: actually a very disgusting newspaper. They would rate clubs based

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Speaker 2: on the like the number one to four erect penises,

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Speaker 2: about what your chances of essentially screwing girls at the club.

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Speaker 4: It was disgusting. The fact that Matt Taybe got as

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Speaker 4: much respect as he got. It was pretty open. I mean,

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Speaker 4: he talked about raping people like he was pretty discussion.

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Speaker 2: Believe me. Even though it was the nineties and it

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Speaker 2: was a crazy time, the Russian security services were still

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Speaker 2: very active, so they're very well aware of what these

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Speaker 2: guys are doing.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying I have any evidence to suggest that

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Speaker 2: they are working for Russian intelligence whatever, but it's the

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Speaker 2: exact kind of thing that Russians would try to take

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Speaker 2: advantage of if they could.

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Speaker 4: I would say, I have no firm evidence. They may

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Speaker 4: have been just for free doing the thing that Russia

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Speaker 4: wanted them to do, and that was later revealed in

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Speaker 4: other contexts to be the exact playbook of Russia.

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Speaker 3: And this isn't something new. I mean, going back in

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Speaker 3: American history, Henry Ford, Charles Lindberg, a number of leading

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Speaker 3: movie stars were very pro Nazi right up until Pearl Harbor.

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Speaker 3: In fact, the number of people who were involved in

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Speaker 3: this is actually quite shocking. Errol Flynn, the Great actor,

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Speaker 3: was a great admirer of Adolf Hitler. And it wasn't

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Speaker 3: until December seventh, nineteen forty one that everybody suddenly changed

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Speaker 3: their two.

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Speaker 2: Not everybody. There's still a lot of people supporting that's

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Speaker 2: after you as you listened to Rachel Maddow's podcast.

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Speaker 3: Well, they weren't openly, Yeah, they weren't openly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm really pleased that we're going to have two

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Speaker 3: episodes with Michael Wise. He's really one of the leading

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Speaker 3: lights when it comes to disinformation, authoritarianism, and especially for

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Speaker 3: as he's an expert on ISIS. I found it very interesting,

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Speaker 3: having served twice in a rock against hearing his views

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Speaker 3: on it. And it's funny as a professional intelligence officer

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Speaker 3: that for a while was my thing. I was focusing

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Speaker 3: on ISIS night and day, and I hear journalists come in, Adam,

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Speaker 3: I will unfortunately pay you a real compliment. Serious journalists

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Speaker 3: like you and Michael Wise. They come in and you

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Speaker 3: guys have got a really good grip, and we would

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Speaker 3: listen very closely what you had to say, because you

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Speaker 3: had to take on things that those of us on

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Speaker 3: the inside didn't always get.

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Speaker 4: But just to be clear, you're saying, I'm also really good.

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Speaker 4: I just want to I will say something that Michael

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Speaker 4: Wise represents. This may be a time of enormous misinformation,

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Speaker 4: but it's also I think it's got to be the

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Speaker 4: time of the most good information about misinformation that we're

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Speaker 4: actually aware of it.

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Speaker 2: But what bad actors know is essentially they know we're

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Speaker 2: so big they can't take us on directly. They need

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Speaker 2: to find weak spots, and a week spot for an

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Speaker 2: Intelligence Service is our First Amendment. They know that they

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Speaker 2: can spread any information into our system, and frankly, there's

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Speaker 2: not much we can do about it. We can't stop it,

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Speaker 2: we can't turn it off. We can't tell people not

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Speaker 2: to say things, even if they're getting it from foreign

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Speaker 2: places for malign purposes. And this is like a terrorist

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Speaker 2: looking for a soft spot to attack, rather than attack

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Speaker 2: an army head on or something. They're looking for weaknesses

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Speaker 2: and taking advantage of it. And in this case, this

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Speaker 2: information flows very well into a system with the First Amendment. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm a bit old. I'm going to need to go

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Speaker 2: to the bathroom, so let's take a quick break and

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Speaker 2: we'll be back shortly. All right, welcome back.

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Speaker 3: There's a Rolling Stone article that's just come out, and

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Speaker 3: this is on the First Amendment. And Johnny, I want

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Speaker 3: to trow you as well that Trump apparently is telling

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Speaker 3: and this is just accord of the article and what

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Speaker 3: I've read, but he is saying that he wants to

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Speaker 3: arrest Stephen Colbert for expressing his First Amendment rights. And

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Speaker 3: what he's saying in the intimidation part this is that

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Speaker 3: Colbert's jokes and his comments are a contribution not in money,

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Speaker 3: but in kind to Trump's enemies, to Trump's about his enemies,

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Speaker 3: but to his political rivals and his opponents. And he

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Speaker 3: intends to, if elected, go after Colbert for making jokes

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Speaker 3: about him.

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Speaker 2: So maybe if Harris wins, she can go after Tucker

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Speaker 2: Carlson for his contributions to That is.

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Speaker 3: A really good point. Yeah, I mean, you know Goose

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Speaker 3: and Ganner kind of thing. But Adam, do you sense

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Speaker 3: this is just something he's just like brooding about or

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Speaker 3: is this something that we actually have to be we

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Speaker 3: and Michael Weiss, this is the authoritarian handbook, one on one,

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Speaker 3: even if he doesn't follow through with convictions, even just

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Speaker 3: investigating or telling the Justice Department to go after as intimidation.

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Speaker 4: I had an interesting talk with I was at a

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Speaker 4: dinner where it was a bunch of lawyers and smart

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Speaker 4: people on the law, and they were talking about how

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Speaker 4: what this Supreme Court has already done with the presentsidential

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Speaker 4: immunity and other bills this year, the Chevron defense, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: The immunity thing wasn't even a wild fringe idea that

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Speaker 4: really came out of nowhere and was really shocked a

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Speaker 4: lot of people but the Chevron defense was a fringe

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Speaker 4: idea that has been slowly populating, So it's probably not

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Speaker 4: a good idea to assume this is all, Oh, that's

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Speaker 4: crazy talk. Like the crazy talk to the law of

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Speaker 4: the land pipeline seems pretty robust right now, and like

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Speaker 4: the whole goal of the unitary executive. Even non crazy

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Speaker 4: Conservatives have been promoting this idea for two hundred and

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Speaker 4: fifty years.

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Speaker 3: Before the Supreme Court they said, well, in theory, could

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Speaker 3: a president order Seal Team six to murder political rival?

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Speaker 3: And yet no one seems to be worried, nor should

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Speaker 3: they be, that Biden is going to order Trump assassinated by.

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Speaker 4: Although he can fully legally he could, right yeah, and

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Speaker 4: because he won't, in fifty wants to overturn it.

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Speaker 3: And I'm really concerned about this for both conspiracy theories driving.

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Speaker 2: This is my opportunity to turn you to an op

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Speaker 2: ed piece that I wrote in the Washington Post recently

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Speaker 2: with Jim Petrilla, a former CIA lawyer, about the immunity discussion,

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Speaker 2: and it's all this talk about the Seal Team six,

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Speaker 2: and when you talk about the military, there's this whole

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Speaker 2: history of not following illegal orders and that type of thing.

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Speaker 2: I think more likely these immunity decision will have an

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Speaker 2: impact on places like the CIA, where there are authorities

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Speaker 2: that can be used to such a get rid of

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Speaker 2: the reforms that have happened for the last forty fifty

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Speaker 2: years and allow the CIA to do some of these

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Speaker 2: kind of activities.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, these aren't conspiracy theories anymore. These are like something

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Speaker 3: that people in these audits should be really concerned about.

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Speaker 2: So today we have Michael Weiss. He's a journalist and

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Speaker 2: author and expert on Syria, terrorism and Russian intelligence. He's

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Speaker 2: been publishing inside reporting on the war in Ukraine and

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Speaker 2: Russian malign activities around the world. So, Michael, this seems

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Speaker 2: to be the perfect story for Mission plug. So Russia

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Speaker 2: engaged in an actual conspiracy to pay conspiracy theorists to

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Speaker 2: spread disinformation and conspiracy theories and paid them very well.

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Speaker 1: Made I think a couple of million dollars. They all

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Speaker 1: got hundreds of thousands of dollars to make videos. There

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Speaker 1: you go, I mean, not produce anything elaborate and sophisticated,

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Speaker 1: just them ranting on camera about things that it seemed

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Speaker 1: that they already sort of believed. But if you read

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Speaker 1: the indictment. They were prompted by their handler, who it

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Speaker 1: turns out, was a fake persona invented by a Russian

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Speaker 1: intelligence officer, and basically he just his cutout was this

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Speaker 1: non existent finance bro who, in the mold of Elon

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Speaker 1: Musk and David Sachs and that lot, seemed to think

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Speaker 1: that wokeness was destroying Western civilization and the only cure

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Speaker 1: for it is a bunch of weird maga people with podcasts.

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Speaker 1: And the strange thing is that the FBI and DJ

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Speaker 1: make it seem as if these guys were unwitting agents.

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Speaker 1: If somebody came to me and said, hey, we love

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Speaker 1: your podcast. I'm gonna give one hundred thousand dollars in

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Speaker 1: that episode, I'd be a little bit suspicious. I think

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Speaker 1: highly of myself, but not that highly of myself. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's well above market rates, So yeah, I mean, is

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Speaker 1: it that they were too stupid to have any even

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Speaker 1: the base level interest in who's coming up to them

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Speaker 1: and offering these bags of cash or did they just

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Speaker 1: not care and think, okay, if it's the Russians, so what,

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Speaker 1: I'm already drinking from those waters as it were.

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Speaker 3: The media is pretty clear that they received a CV

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Speaker 3: on whoever this guy was, this fake persona, But if

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Speaker 3: you gave it more than ten minutes of googling, he

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Speaker 3: simply doesn't exist. This guy.

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Speaker 2: He's even spelled his name rong.

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Speaker 1: Two ends.

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Speaker 3: So it's either they didn't know or more likely they

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Speaker 3: just simply didn't want to know.

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Speaker 1: But you know, the amazing thing is the level of

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Speaker 1: insight that the FBI had into the Russian case officer

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Speaker 1: and what he was doing. And one of the things

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Speaker 1: I've been tracking and I think is very thematic, is

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Speaker 1: the kind of cultural degradation of the Russian intelligence services

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Speaker 1: over time. You know, Dossaevsky said you can judge a

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Speaker 1: society based on its prison population. You can also base

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Speaker 1: the society based on its cadre of intelligence officers and agents.

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Speaker 1: This guy, for instance, pretended he was in Paris but

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Speaker 1: was logging into Zoom or whatever it was Microsoft teams

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Speaker 1: on Moscow time, and they've literally got him googling the

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Speaker 1: time in Paris from his computer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he missed a meeting one time because he missed

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Speaker 2: the thought.

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Speaker 1: Right, right, And I mean he is spelling your name

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Speaker 1: with two ends, a name like Gregorian, which you could

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Speaker 1: easily google how that name is. It's just bizarre kind

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Speaker 1: of tradecraft.

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Speaker 3: Because Trump himself has commented on this and basically said,

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Speaker 3: I don't believe any of it, and I think in

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Speaker 3: the right wing blogosphere and their right wing ecosystem, this

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Speaker 3: story doesn't exist right.

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Speaker 1: Well, all the influencers essentially capped to it and said,

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Speaker 1: we were duped. We are the victims here, right, So

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Speaker 1: they're legitimating the indictment and the credibility of it. The

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Speaker 1: other interesting thing I've noticed with this, and this has

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Speaker 1: also been a theme, certainly for the last decade or so.

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Speaker 1: Usually when the Russians get their hand caught in the

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Speaker 1: cookie jar, their intelligence operations are exposed, their reflexive response

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Speaker 1: is to deny it's a lie, it's Rusophobia, or the

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Speaker 1: CIA and the FBI are whipping up anti Soviet sentiment.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you just go back to any major spy

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Speaker 1: scandal in the twentieth century during Cold War I mean

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Speaker 1: Gusenko in Canada, the extent to which the Soviet press

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Speaker 1: has said that this was all just a fabrication designed

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Speaker 1: to disrupt the World War two alliance. And oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe some people in the Communist Party were stealing nuclear information,

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Speaker 1: but it was all stuff we had already, and this

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Speaker 1: is all penny antebs this time. The Russians are kind

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Speaker 1: of Artie's response, I think they were quoted by Fox

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Speaker 1: News was ha ha. They're laughing off. Russian propagandists are saying, oh, okay,

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Speaker 1: they paid a bunch of right wing podcasters. What about NAPO,

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Speaker 1: which is a collective of, as they call themselves, brain

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Speaker 1: dead cartoon dogs who espouse the Ukrainian cause and basically

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Speaker 1: troll the Russians the way the Russians used to troll

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Speaker 1: everyone else. And yet the Russian conceit, and the conceit

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Speaker 1: of the fellow travelers of the Russian government is that

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Speaker 1: NAFO is a CIA enterprise. But these are all bots

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Speaker 1: paid for by clever accountants at Langley or whatever. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: I know the people who found in NAPO. They're very real.

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Speaker 1: One is a former army tank commander in Afghanistan who's

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Speaker 1: done interviews about it. But I think that's part of

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Speaker 1: the new kind of the way that the Russian government

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Speaker 1: plays these games. You know that the idea of we're

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Speaker 1: inhabiting a post truth, postmodern world where it's no longer.

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Speaker 1: You don't have to deny something. You cop to your

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Speaker 1: own malevolence, but you just turn it around and say,

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Speaker 1: we just do what everybody else does. Right. That's the

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Speaker 1: fundamental nature of these conspiracy theories is they project that

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Speaker 1: which they what they accused the West of doing, they

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Speaker 1: themselves are guilty of.

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Speaker 2: Right. Let's take a quick step back, though. Can you

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Speaker 2: tell us about the people involved in this?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: So it was through this company called Tenet Media. There

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Speaker 2: was a few people Benny Johnson, Timpoole, Dave Rubin, and

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Speaker 2: Tim Poole even interviewed Donald Trump on his show. And

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Speaker 2: Benny Johnson has something like two and a half million

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Speaker 2: followers on his YouTube channel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think the short answer is they're all angry, grievance

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Speaker 1: afflicted culture warriors. I wouldn't even say that they have

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Speaker 1: any coherent politics other than the liberal establishment and the

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Speaker 1: elites are out to dispossess all of us and wokenesses

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Speaker 1: the cancer of our time, and anything that is anti

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Speaker 1: Trump is bad, and Donald Trump represents this sort of

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Speaker 1: disruptor mentality that they all cling to. These are people

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Speaker 1: who demand to be taken seriously and are very angry

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Speaker 1: at the fact that so few people seem to have

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Speaker 1: done so, and so they've created this cottage industry of

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Speaker 1: being on the outside looking in at a forty five

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Speaker 1: degree angle to the so called establishment, whatever that is,

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Speaker 1: and however one chooses to define it. And there are

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Speaker 1: a lot of angry cranks and malcontents out there, and

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Speaker 1: what the Internet has done beautifully is bring all of

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Speaker 1: these people together. And the Russians, to their credit, saw

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Speaker 1: that this is having an influence, that these guys do

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Speaker 1: have an organic following of real people. They are peddling influence,

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Speaker 1: certainly in the age of Trump, They're acting as a

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Speaker 1: force multiplier for the stuff that he believes. So, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's this guy, Tim pul Well. I don't really know

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Speaker 1: them that well. I don't follow this ecosystem. I know

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Speaker 1: Timpole has gone on Fox News and complained about how

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Speaker 1: guys like Timpoole can't get laid and how women don't

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Speaker 1: like them, which again, like if I had, if.

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Speaker 2: The women knew he was getting ten million dollars.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 1: I'm reading the indictment. I'm looking at the profiles of

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Speaker 1: all of these actors.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the ties that binds all these guys is

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Speaker 1: they're very down on Ukraine and the idea that the

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Speaker 1: Western the United States has any responsibility whatsoever to help

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Speaker 1: Ukraine materially, morally, diplomatically, financially. And I think looking at

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Speaker 1: them from the perspective of a Russian intelligence officer, it

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Speaker 1: makes perfect sense that they would seize upon these guys

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Speaker 1: and say, how can we help. We want to amplify

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Speaker 1: your endeavor here and give you lots of money and

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Speaker 1: keep you doing the things that you do. But there

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Speaker 1: is evidence here this wasn't a sort of non editorial

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Speaker 1: interference deal. They were prompting them, they were giving them

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Speaker 1: talking points. Could you, for instance, say that the isis

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Speaker 1: K attack on the Crocus mal in Russia was in

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Speaker 1: fact the Ukrainian military. And then it becomes this relationship

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Speaker 1: where you realize the only TV you can do is

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Speaker 1: Russian state TV. So you lean into what you think

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Speaker 1: that audience is expecting from you. You know, Seian opposition

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Speaker 1: or all terrorists, plasher a Lasada ain't so bad? Putin

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Speaker 1: is this? But what about George W. Bush and Bill Clinton, etc.

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Speaker 2: Etc.

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Speaker 1: And I've seen a lot of people over the years

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Speaker 1: who they might start out a little heterodox in their

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Speaker 1: thinking or kind of contrarian and then, as a result

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Speaker 1: of getting boosted by Russian propaganda, become completely intoxicated with

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Speaker 1: the conspiracism because they realize that's how they're building their

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Speaker 1: audience on Twitter and Facebook, and they become this sort

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Speaker 1: of cultural force onto themselves.

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Speaker 3: But in the past people like this, So in World

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Speaker 3: War Two, Lord haw Right who talked to British troops,

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Speaker 3: he was executed by the British after the war, and

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Speaker 3: his trial he basically said, I believed it. I thought

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Speaker 3: this was all I didn't actually lie. I was talking

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Speaker 3: about British defeats, and I was talking about competence by

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Speaker 3: Montgomery and so forth, and it didn't matter. And then

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Speaker 3: in the US we had Tokyo Rose and access Sally

439
00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 3: and again in their trials where they're all found guilty

440
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 3: of treason, they basically said, I was telling the truth.

441
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,760
Speaker 3: My truth just happened to be the same as what

442
00:22:15,800 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 3: our enemies were doing. So when I hear Tim Poole

443
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 3: and people like this say, it doesn't really matter because

444
00:22:21,440 --> 00:22:25,080
Speaker 3: that's what I think anyway. But basically doing it at

445
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,919
Speaker 3: the knowingly or they should know at the behest of

446
00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 3: Gladabra Putin, who is our enemy? If you don't believe it,

447
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 3: just ask him, right, he says this, And seventy years

448
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 3: ago we were putting these people in the docket and

449
00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:36,960
Speaker 3: trying them for trees. I'm not saying we should do

450
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,800
Speaker 3: with these guys, but I think that as a country,

451
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 3: we treated disinformation differently in the past. Okay, let's take

452
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 3: a break from the craziness just for a minute or two.

453
00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 1: And Rebecca, the critical word is money. I have some

454
00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: flickering respect for sort of the generation of revolutionary idealists

455
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 1: from the twenties and thirties who joined the communist cause

456
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,960
Speaker 1: because they truly believed that was the future of humanity.

457
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 1: They were driven by not necessarily I mean yes, in

458
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:21,679
Speaker 1: many cases a love of Moscow, and they believed in

459
00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: the workers state. But also they were terrified by the

460
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 1: rise of fascism in Europe, and they saw communism as

461
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 1: the only viable alternative because liberal democracy had failed. We

462
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:34,200
Speaker 1: talked on the last show Whittiger Chambers head amassing people

463
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,560
Speaker 1: of that ilk to them. When the Soviet services started

464
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,480
Speaker 1: to say we want to pay you, that was anathema.

465
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,439
Speaker 1: They would never have taken money that was an insult,

466
00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 1: and that actually started to make them doubt their own idealism.

467
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:48,680
Speaker 1: What do you mean, pay me. I'm doing this because

468
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm a revolutionary. I do this because it's the core

469
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:51,880
Speaker 1: of my conviction.

470
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:52,920
Speaker 3: It's the right thing to do.

471
00:23:53,000 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 1: Right, it's the right thing to do. And you know,

472
00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:56,399
Speaker 1: the difference here is it's a grift.

473
00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 3: Right.

474
00:23:57,240 --> 00:24:00,720
Speaker 1: Maybe they start out believing I don't know, Kamala Harris

475
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: is kind of comie like in her policy prescriptions. Maybe

476
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:07,560
Speaker 1: they start with the kind of politics like this. But again,

477
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: this relationship that they have with their online audience, these

478
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: invisible faces of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people who click, follow, subscribe,

479
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:19,439
Speaker 1: and then if there's a tip jar or some kind

480
00:24:19,440 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: of crowdfunding mechanism, feed the beast. That's what I think

481
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: drives them. Suddenly they're famous, suddenly they're wealthy, or they're

482
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,920
Speaker 1: doing quite well, whereas in the more traditional sort of

483
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 1: outlets and fora they would fail. And I think again,

484
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,680
Speaker 1: their sense of self, their mentality, and their place in

485
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: the culture is very much in definition, is defined by

486
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:45,720
Speaker 1: their negative relationship to what they see as acceptable society

487
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 1: and the fact that the Russians just paid them loads

488
00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: of cash is very much in keeping with that sort

489
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: of core cynicism, I.

490
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: Think, Michael, let me ask you the question we were

491
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 2: getting to earlier about how much bigger it might be.

492
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 2: So we have lots of evidence, for example, that in

493
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,320
Speaker 2: Europe Russia has overtly paid for media, but has also

494
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:06,280
Speaker 2: paid politicians and political parties. So is this latest indictment

495
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: just a tip of the iceberg?

496
00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: Well, you know, it's very funny. I lived in London

497
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:15,040
Speaker 1: from about twenty ten to late twenty twelve and one

498
00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: of the things I noticed when I was starting to

499
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 1: cover Russian intelligence and influence operations was the Russian government

500
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: seemed very interested in the Tory Party to an extent

501
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:29,600
Speaker 1: that the SVR helped found something called Conservative Friends of Russia.

502
00:25:30,280 --> 00:25:33,160
Speaker 1: They had their launch party at the Russian Embassy and

503
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,280
Speaker 1: a friend of mine, Peter Palmeransive, went to one of

504
00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 1: these events and he said it was all very Weimar.

505
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: You had very awkward looking men with bad complexions. There

506
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 1: was at least one or two Dwarfs there, and it

507
00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: was like, these are all like guys who want to

508
00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,040
Speaker 1: go to Russia, want to meet pretty girls, want to

509
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 1: have consultancy contracts with gaz Prom and Rosneft, and they

510
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,720
Speaker 1: see Russia as a fun anarchic place where they can succeed,

511
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:01,560
Speaker 1: whereas in the UK not so much. At best, they

512
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 1: might be a Tory backbencher one day, and yet lo

513
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: and behold, the Russians took them to Moscow and Saint

514
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: Petersburg and there was some compramont and strip. I mean again,

515
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,399
Speaker 1: you could write the script in crayon. That's how easy

516
00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,880
Speaker 1: it was. What struck me was okay, so it used

517
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: to be Moscow would align or look for willing or

518
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: perhaps unwitting agents of influence and agents on the political left,

519
00:26:24,840 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 1: anti imperialists, anti American sort of socialist types. Now they're

520
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 1: sinking their teeth into conservatives. People who believe in blood

521
00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 1: and soil nationalism have a sense of religiosity, even if

522
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,399
Speaker 1: they don't quite subscribe to it. So in a way,

523
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: when MAGA came into being, it was cream cheese for

524
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,080
Speaker 1: the Russians. This is exactly what they were hoping to

525
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: see arise in the United States because they had been

526
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,359
Speaker 1: playing with the same elements in Europe. What starts in

527
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: Europe often migrates over to the United States. And I

528
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,239
Speaker 1: think we're just now catching up with the fact that

529
00:26:57,280 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 1: this has been going on here for quite some time.

530
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: And yeah, I mean it probably isn't just confined to

531
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: the far right, because there's certainly elements on the far

532
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 1: left who agree with the far right on a lot

533
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: of things Syria, Israel, Palestine, now certainly Ukraine, and indeed,

534
00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 1: I mean running interference for Donald Trump, because he is

535
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:16,520
Speaker 1: the guy who's going to just tear it all up

536
00:27:16,760 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: and start all over again, and he's so unpredictable and chaotic.

537
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 1: It weakens the United States and therefore empowers its adversaries.

538
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 2: Who are the main public figures in the United States

539
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 2: who appear to be regurgitating Russian talking points come to

540
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,880
Speaker 2: mind for me, for example, Tulca gabberd Ron Johnson, Tucker Carlson,

541
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:37,680
Speaker 2: Elon Musk, Rfk, Junior Rugi, Scott Ridder, Aaron Motte, Josh Holly,

542
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 2: all those kind of guys.

543
00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: Sure Ridder might himself face indictment because the FBI raided

544
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,320
Speaker 1: his house evidently.

545
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: Not the first time, not the first time.

546
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 1: No, I mean you mentioned it. The Grey Zone Project

547
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 1: is low hanging fruit. I think, given the fact that

548
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: it was founded literally after Max Blumenthal came back from

549
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: Moscow attending the RT annual Gala ten year anniversary, at which,

550
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: by the way, was also one Mike Flynn, one Jill Stein.

551
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, look, just because you're regurgitating these

552
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: talking points or these narratives doesn't mean that you're on

553
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:08,120
Speaker 1: the payroll.

554
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 2: It's true. But it's interesting that how clear they are.

555
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: Often like at the same time they all start putting

556
00:28:13,080 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 2: up almost the same language. So something's going someone's getting it,

557
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,679
Speaker 2: putting it into the ecosphere, and others are picking it up.

558
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 1: You know, all of these guys were saying in the

559
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:23,160
Speaker 1: lead up to the February twenty twenty two full scale

560
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,200
Speaker 1: invasion of Ukraine, this is crazy, this is QAnon for

561
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: the liberal establishment. It ain't gonna happen. Then when the

562
00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 1: Russians invaded, the tweets were almost identical. It was listen,

563
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,000
Speaker 1: I was wrong, I'm sorry, and it was almost verbatim

564
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: across Mark Ames Aaron mate. It's like they all got

565
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 1: their fucking taskings from their handlers telling them, oh, yeah, okay,

566
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:47,960
Speaker 1: we need to change the narrative to start putting this

567
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: stuff out now. It cra deserved it, yeah, exactly, Ukraine

568
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: deserved it. This is the result of NATO's expansion, blah blah,

569
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 1: and that's what they've been doing for the last two

570
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: and a half years. And that actually reflects that not

571
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:01,680
Speaker 1: everyone in the Russian government and across the security services

572
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:05,960
Speaker 1: intelligence agencies was read into the invasion of Ukraine. I'd

573
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 1: heard stories from here in New York that the Russian

574
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,320
Speaker 1: mission to the United Nations was hosting a party and everybody,

575
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:15,479
Speaker 1: you know, we're twelve vodkas in the bag and they

576
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: had to be recalled to the office because guess what

577
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 1: Putin actually went in And so they either they were

578
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: acting surprise or they were genuinely taken aback Butye because

579
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: they didn't think he was going to happen.

580
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 3: We've seen this play before. So in World War Two,

581
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,800
Speaker 3: the French Communist Party, the American Communist Party, they were like,

582
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 3: you know what, let's just stay out of this World

583
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 3: War two until Barbaros. Once the Germans invaded the Soviet Union,

584
00:29:39,800 --> 00:29:42,480
Speaker 3: then the American Communist Party had to do a complete

585
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 3: about face.

586
00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:47,120
Speaker 1: The French Communist newspaper, the editorials in the morning and

587
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: the evening edition were the exact opposite.

588
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 3: And dare I say, Hunter Biden. I mean, I don't

589
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 3: want to go back to that, but I think we

590
00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 3: do have to say that it's not just these influencers.

591
00:29:57,720 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 3: Alexander Smirnoff, for example, was this guy was arrested an

592
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 3: FBI in Foreman, a Russian who was pushing the narrative

593
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,320
Speaker 3: that the Biden crime family were in the pockets of

594
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,000
Speaker 3: the Russian So someone it's not just a few influencers.

595
00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 3: I think the Russian services are going at this in

596
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,120
Speaker 3: a whole host of different ways. So it's a huge

597
00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:21,280
Speaker 3: conspiracy and it's manifested in all sorts of different ways.

598
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now you have this wonderful chestnut from Putin

599
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: where he's winkingly endorsing Kamala Harris for her infectious laugh

600
00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,560
Speaker 1: and everyone these idiots are literally saying that means that

601
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 1: the Russians are for the Democratic Party. Aha, it's still

602
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: a hoax.

603
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 3: But the infectious laugh thing that is playing off. Of course,

604
00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: what Trump was saying that was a criticism he was making.

605
00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 3: So it's clear that Putin is listening to this and

606
00:30:44,360 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 3: he's winking at the American audience.

607
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 1: There's a macab delight they take in watching this sort

608
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: of very eager enthusiastic constituency, lap up whatever it is

609
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,440
Speaker 1: they're pouring down, because this is one of the thoroughgoing

610
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,520
Speaker 1: conceits of how the Russians view people who are not

611
00:31:02,640 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 1: fully recruited, but are these useful idiots, agents of influencers.

612
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: The Russian term for it is shit eater. They treat

613
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 1: them with contempt. They're like tissue to be used and

614
00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 1: discarded at the Russians pleasure. And this now, this new

615
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 1: thing up where you're offering amnesty to Timpoole and Lauren

616
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: Chen and a lot of them. They want to come

617
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: to Russia and live here. Can you imagine any of

618
00:31:20,520 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: these people going and living in Russia? I can't. That's

619
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,720
Speaker 1: the whole game over right there. They need the Western audience.

620
00:31:26,800 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: They want to live, they want to indulge in life

621
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: here while tearing down their own society as completely depraved

622
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: and corrupt.

623
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 3: So, Michael, how does a free society protect itself? So

624
00:31:40,200 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 3: Lord haw when he was involved in the World War two,

625
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 3: the British executed him, access Sally and Tokyo Rose got

626
00:31:47,080 --> 00:31:49,720
Speaker 3: thirty years, although they're all out within four or five.

627
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: Right, These social media influencers were all about conspiracy theories.

628
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 2: They had millions of followers, and they constantly talked about

629
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 2: seeing shadowy figures secretly pulling the strings behind the scenes.

630
00:32:01,080 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 2: But somehow they didn't seem to question why someone gave

631
00:32:03,880 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 2: these eighth grade education people millions of dollars to spread

632
00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 2: Russian talking points. They see things behind every bush, and

633
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 2: then on this all of a sudden, they got a

634
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 2: bunch of this money and didn't ask any questions.

635
00:32:15,040 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: And this is part of the great irony. And again

636
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 1: going back to the macab delight. You know, the Russians

637
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: tell their useful idiots to say everything is a CIA

638
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 1: State Department deep state conspiracy, from NAFO to the White

639
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,320
Speaker 1: Helmets or whatever, when in fact, what the Russians are

640
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 1: doing more accurately adheres to that definition, and it's this

641
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:38,720
Speaker 1: weird sort of Freudian projection.

642
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 2: It's funny. I saw a tweet which said exactly. I said,

643
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 2: just wait until the conspiracy theorists discover they're part of

644
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: a conspiracy to use conspiracy theorists to spread disinformation via

645
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 2: conspiracy theories.

646
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

647
00:32:52,160 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 3: So we're going to stop here for today and continue

648
00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 3: our conversation with Michael Weiss on the next episode see

649
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 3: you next week. I'm Mission Implausible.

650
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 5: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'Shea, John Seipher,

651
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 5: and Jonathan Sterner. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission

652
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 5: Implausible is a production of Honorable Mention and Abominable Pictures

653
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:22,640
Speaker 5: for iHeart Podcasts.