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Speaker 1: If you have your own story of being in a

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Speaker 1: cult or a high control group.

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Speaker 2: Or if you've had experience with manipulation or abusive power

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Speaker 2: that you'd like to share.

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Speaker 1: Leave us a message on our hotline number at three

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Speaker 1: four seven eight six trust.

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Speaker 2: That's three four seven eight six eight seven eight seven eight.

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Speaker 1: Or showed us an email at trust Me pod at

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Speaker 1: gmail dot com.

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Speaker 3: Trust me. Trust me.

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Speaker 2: I'm like a swat person.

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Speaker 3: I've never lied to you. If you think.

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Speaker 2: That one person has all the answers, don't welcome. Welcome

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Speaker 2: to trust Me, the podcast about cult, extreme belief and

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Speaker 2: manipulation from two creatives who've actually experienced. I am Lo

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Speaker 2: Lablanc and Megan Elizabeth is not with me today. Today

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Speaker 2: our guest is Barrek Hardley.

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Speaker 1: He is my friend.

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Speaker 2: He is a former pastor and current actor, artist, director,

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Speaker 2: and all around creative who's for sure the next Bob Ross.

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Speaker 2: Barack's going to talk to me about his previous life

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Speaker 2: as an evangelical pastor, getting kicked out of the church

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Speaker 2: and transitioning into working as an actor creative in LA

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Speaker 2: and then we're going to go on a total tangent

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Speaker 2: conversation that I loved and frankly needed in this pretty

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Speaker 2: harrowing year being a person in the world. We're going

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Speaker 2: to talk about art and creativity, the skepticism of the

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Speaker 2: supernatural that we both share, looking for truth in your art,

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Speaker 2: and how to use that creative process to reconstruct your

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Speaker 2: identity and find meaning after leaving a belief system, plus

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Speaker 2: the importance of examining your own thoughts and all of

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Speaker 2: the beliefs you take for granted, and so much more.

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Speaker 2: It's not the cultiest episode that we've ever done, but

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed it and hopefully you will too. Before I

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Speaker 2: dive in with Barrick, I'm going to tell you guys

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Speaker 2: my cultiest thing, and listen, there's a lot of culty

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Speaker 2: shit happening right now. But today I'm want to talk

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Speaker 2: about Romana Dedulo because I don't know how Megan and

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Speaker 2: I have not talked about her yet. I didn't know

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Speaker 2: she existed, and frankly, I'm embarrassed. I have a cold

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Speaker 2: podcast and I didn't know. Okay, So when Q of

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Speaker 2: QAnon fame went silent in twenty apparently it left a

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Speaker 2: vacuum and this woman named Romana Dedulo kind of stepped

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Speaker 2: in and started filling that power vacuum. Now, there is

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Speaker 2: so much to get into with her that we are

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Speaker 2: going to need to do a whole episode on it.

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Speaker 2: I like literally don't know how to summarize this in

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Speaker 2: a concise way for you guys, but basically I'm gonna

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Speaker 2: just pull some some lines from one of the Vice

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Speaker 2: articles about it. Okay, So she is the Queen of Canada.

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Speaker 2: I mean, she calls herself and her followers call her

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Speaker 2: the Queen of Canada. Naturally, she's waging a secret war

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Speaker 2: against a cabala of pedophilic elites, classic extraterrestrial spiritual leader

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Speaker 2: with new age healing technology. She is, though, like pretty

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Speaker 2: next level in some of the stuff that Vice is

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Speaker 2: uncovered here. So first of all, I mean, she's got

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Speaker 2: a group of a dozen people who just travel with

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Speaker 2: her all the time. They wear matching uniforms. There have

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Speaker 2: been processions for her in Canada where it literally looks

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Speaker 2: like a royal procession, and Grant like, mind you, this

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Speaker 2: is like forty people, not like four thousand people. But

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Speaker 2: still she's got these like volunteers who just chaperone her around.

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Speaker 2: They shot for her, they cook for her. People have

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Speaker 2: come out who've sort of emerged out of the Romana

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Speaker 2: cult and said that she would play her favorite song,

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Speaker 2: which was a song called Resputant, at six or seven

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Speaker 2: am every single day, and sometimes would just play it

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Speaker 2: over and over again. One time, apparently she played the

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Speaker 2: song for a ten hour drive while her followers just

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Speaker 2: had to sit and listen to it the entire time.

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Speaker 2: What also makes this whole situation pretty crazy is that

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Speaker 2: she very openly threatens to kill people for nothing. I mean,

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Speaker 2: she's like very pretty unhinged, it says. One former follower

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Speaker 2: said that Dedulo threatened to have him killed several times

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Speaker 2: by a variety of methods, including being shot in the

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Speaker 2: head or thrown from a helicopter. One of his many

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Speaker 2: transgressions worthy of death booking a pickup toime I'm for

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Speaker 2: an RV at five pm instead of four pm, So

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Speaker 2: it's pretty freakin crazy. They also, like, I guess this

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Speaker 2: group like gathered at a police station because they thought

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Speaker 2: that the military was going to come arrest the police

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Speaker 2: or something, so they started shouting about that. Of course,

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Speaker 2: the police then came out and were like, no, we're

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Speaker 2: arresting you. Yeah. So she has threatened to execute anyone

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Speaker 2: who crosses her not just her particular followers. She just

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Speaker 2: like kind of throws these threats out pretty willy nilly.

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Speaker 2: Sounds like she's been very abusive to her followers, which

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Speaker 2: no surprise there. And now that she's in the news

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Speaker 2: this week because the new article says that basically there

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Speaker 2: was a town that she had kind of landed in

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Speaker 2: after being this like traveling caravan and it's this tiny

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Speaker 2: little town in Canada has been trying to get her out,

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Speaker 2: and they did successfully briefly get her out, and now

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Speaker 2: she is back, and her entourage is back, her cult

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Speaker 2: is back. A quote from her second in command about

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Speaker 2: this live stream that they're group did on the school

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Speaker 2: that the abandoned school that somebody gave to her that

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Speaker 2: they've been live streaming from. Here's the quote. If you

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Speaker 2: do see flags moving in the background, that is not

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Speaker 2: CGI or green screen, it is her Majesty Queen Romana

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Speaker 2: of course making sure the set is of course perfect.

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Speaker 2: If only you knew what takes place in the background

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Speaker 2: on a daily basis with our Royal Majesty Romana to

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Speaker 2: Doulo and team, you would be awestruck. So there's so

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Speaker 2: much to unpack here. We don't have time to get

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Speaker 2: into it today. But it is wild to me that

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Speaker 2: QAnon continues to produce new and evolving and changing fusion

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Speaker 2: conspiracy theories, all led by kind of different people. Romana

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Speaker 2: Dedulo seems to be a particularly dangerous and scary figure

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Speaker 2: in this subculture, and I hope that nobody gets hurt

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Speaker 2: too bad. I hope that her followers can find a

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Speaker 2: way out of it very soon. As we know though

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Speaker 2: from doing this podcast, that unfortunately does not always happen

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Speaker 2: in a timely fashion. So we will keep you all updated,

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Speaker 2: and we will do a whole episode on her and

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Speaker 2: her group and her Queen, her highness. But I am

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Speaker 2: truly disappointed in myself that I didn't know who she was,

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Speaker 2: especially because you know, not that many women cult leaders,

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Speaker 2: and I find them particularly fascinating, just because it is

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Speaker 2: a little bit different from the same old story that

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Speaker 2: we always see. Anyway, we will revisit, We will keep

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Speaker 2: you posted, We will do an episode, but for right now,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to talk to Berek about art and creativity

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Speaker 2: and truth and belief and religion. All right, here we go.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Breck Hardly to trust me. Finally, thanks for being here.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my pleasure.

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Speaker 2: I mean, people might know your face because you've been

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Speaker 2: in like a thousand commercials as well as TV shows

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Speaker 2: and movies and such. And also you've done very well

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Speaker 2: for yourself on TikTok as a creative person. How would

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Speaker 2: you describe your TikTok PERSONA.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know. I'm still figuring that out. Like

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Speaker 3: I gave TikTok a year of my life and like

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Speaker 3: had a whole adventure and I got done with it,

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Speaker 3: and it was I just thought, what was the point

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Speaker 3: of that? What was I building?

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Speaker 2: When you first started, you were so into it. You

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Speaker 2: were like a TikTok evangalist. You're like, this is the

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Speaker 2: way man.

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Speaker 3: Oh I was so into it, and they gave me

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Speaker 3: like fifty thousand followers really quickly. Then for like nine months,

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Speaker 3: the algorithm turned their back on me. I just threw

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Speaker 3: like everything at the wall. But the thing about TikTok

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Speaker 3: is they want a pigeonhole you so fast. I know,

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Speaker 3: like do the thing that they want you to do,

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Speaker 3: and then you do it, and you're like, this is

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Speaker 3: not the thing I want to be doing for the

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Speaker 3: rest of my life, so you try something else. And

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Speaker 3: so it was just like trying to find the unifying

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Speaker 3: string theory of who I am and what I want

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Speaker 3: to do. I've kind of gone away for a while

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Speaker 3: and then like I'm figuring out what that is, what

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Speaker 3: the Grand Barrack Project, because I was given twenty to

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Speaker 3: thirty hours of my week to TikTok and then it

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Speaker 3: was so brutal, but it.

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Speaker 2: Was so cool to see. I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 2: you are someone I think of and maybe you've described

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Speaker 2: yourself this way and that's where I'm getting this from.

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Speaker 2: But as like a Bob Ross for the modern age,

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Speaker 2: you're very much like a facilitator of creativity and art.

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Speaker 2: But your journey to getting there is something that we're

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Speaker 2: going to talk about today and how is all connected.

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Speaker 3: It's so connected.

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Speaker 2: So can you tell me a little bit about your

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Speaker 2: religious background and what that was for you growing up.

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Speaker 3: Lola, I would love to talk about my religious bag.

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Speaker 3: You've fallen into my trap. Yeah. I grew up very Christian,

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Speaker 3: evangelical Christian kind of jumped around from Wesleyan churches and

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Speaker 3: ended up in Baptist churches and I was a youth

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Speaker 3: group kid three times a week. Just the church was

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Speaker 3: my life. And then as I as I got into

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Speaker 3: high school, this like really special thing happened in my

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Speaker 3: life where me and a bunch of my buddies the

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Speaker 3: youth pastor like didn't know what he wanted the youth

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Speaker 3: group to do, so we just started doing sketches and

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Speaker 3: we would rip off Saturday Night Live and make our

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Speaker 3: own sketches. I'm sure it was all really bad.

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Speaker 2: Like Jesus sketches.

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Speaker 3: No, just like comedy. Oh okay, just like literally ripping

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Speaker 3: off stuff we'd saw we'd seen on Saturday Night Live

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Speaker 3: the night before. And then and then he built us

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Speaker 3: a big stage, and then we had side stages with curtains,

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Speaker 3: and then there was professional lighting like this, and then

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Speaker 3: there was a ton of kids coming to youth group

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Speaker 3: and that sort of set me up like this understanding

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Speaker 3: that they're like, oh, the church. I've been thinking about

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Speaker 3: this lately. The church was so good about saying yes

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Speaker 3: to all my creative instincts. And if I had, I

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Speaker 3: liked doing all kinds of creating, like so on camera,

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Speaker 3: on stage, drawing, sculpting, whatever it is. I just loved

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Speaker 3: doing it. And the church was always like, yeah, here's

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Speaker 3: a stage, here's what you need.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's cool. I feel like that's a hard

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Speaker 2: thing to find in life, someone who just says yes, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, oh yeah. And then you move to Los Angeles

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Speaker 3: and you do the business of entertainment, and everybody in

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Speaker 3: the entertainment business is in the business is saying no,

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Speaker 3: right to you. Whatever your idea is, they got it.

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Speaker 3: It's great, I love it. Obviously, the answer is no,

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Speaker 3: what else do you have? And no money, no resources,

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Speaker 3: And so part of me longs to go back and actually,

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Speaker 3: like part of my creative journey is, oh, I want

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Speaker 3: to build maybe like a nonprofit organization or something that

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Speaker 3: just says yes to people, oh what a dream, takes

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Speaker 3: out sort of all their religious trappings and just goes like, here,

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Speaker 3: let me help you straight up pursue your dream, and.

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Speaker 2: That just like a theater company. I feel like there

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Speaker 2: are there are or places where this happens that don't

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Speaker 2: involve religion, but they don't have any money. That's always

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Speaker 2: the problem.

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Speaker 3: Oh right, I'm sure it exists, But I want to

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Speaker 3: do my version where it's everything. I'm starting something called

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Speaker 3: the Society of Creative Adventurers, like an exploration club for

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Speaker 3: people who just like to make stuff. And that's that's

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Speaker 3: my live show and it's going to be a podcast.

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Speaker 3: And I feel like I'm just I'm building this bucket

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Speaker 3: that I can throw everything I am into and see

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Speaker 3: if other people respond to it.

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Speaker 2: That's so cool. So do you think that, I mean,

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Speaker 2: during that period of your life slash prior to that,

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Speaker 2: when you were young, did.

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Speaker 3: You see by the way that journey goes on and

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Speaker 3: on and on and on, Like I stopped at eighteen

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Speaker 3: with the story, but there's like a dozen more years

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Speaker 3: of the story.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, No, I mean I want to know

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Speaker 2: more about it. But I'm like, did you believe like

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Speaker 2: wholeheartedly in the church, do you? Or do you feel

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Speaker 2: like it was more like this was just your lifestyle,

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Speaker 2: your community, your outlet.

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Speaker 3: Sure, it was very much my Yeah, what you just said.

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Speaker 3: It was my outlet. It was my friends, it was

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Speaker 3: my social group. And then I got done with high

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Speaker 3: school and had no life skills given to me. So

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Speaker 3: after dropping out a junior college, my parents were like, hey,

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Speaker 3: we met at a weird fundamentalist Bible school and if

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Speaker 3: you want to go, we'll pay for you. So I

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Speaker 3: end up going to Frontier School of the Bible. It

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Speaker 3: was at the time eighty students on in the middle

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Speaker 3: of the Wyoming prairie, like literally in a town of

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Speaker 3: two hundred people. The mall was an hour away, no TV,

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Speaker 3: this is pre internet. We were just like stuck on

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Speaker 3: the prairie. And it was a very I went three years.

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Speaker 3: It was very intense and it was a fundamental at school.

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Speaker 3: So I changed during that time from going like, oh,

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Speaker 3: this is sort of the church and God is this

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Speaker 3: social construct, to being oh, this is very real and

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Speaker 3: this is the most important thing in the world and

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Speaker 3: you have fallen short in every single way. So it

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Speaker 3: was just a brutal three years of the pain of

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Speaker 3: a late bloomer being forced to grown up, grow up,

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Speaker 3: combined with you know, all of this very harsh doctrine.

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Speaker 2: Wait, so this is this is college, this is after high.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, this is I went there, yeah eighteen nineteen twenty.

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Speaker 2: Wow. Okay, so you enter this like hyper religious school

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Speaker 2: environment and what were you studying there?

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Speaker 1: What was?

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Speaker 3: They just had Bible classes. It was all Bible and doctrine.

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Speaker 3: And the crazy thing was it was like five thousand

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Speaker 3: dollars a year room board intuition. Everybody was on missionary support,

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Speaker 3: like everybody was. There was there because they wanted to

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Speaker 3: be except for like me and my buddies. But yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so it really radicalized me into this small town America.

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Speaker 3: Basically the school was just like a factory for country

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Speaker 3: preachers and missionaries. And I got done with it, and

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Speaker 3: then was like what do I do? And so I

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Speaker 3: did an internship in southern Utah for.

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Speaker 2: A year, living in a hurricane near my mom.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, and my love of Utah. And then

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Speaker 3: I remember I had a day job working in a

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Speaker 3: lumberyard and had long debates with a recently returned Mormon missionary,

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Speaker 3: both of us just going at it like very friendly debates,

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Speaker 3: but intense. Yeah, and then and then what did I do?

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Speaker 3: Then I ended up I thought it was going to

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Speaker 3: be a youth pastor, but couldn't get a job anywhere.

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Speaker 3: And then I ended up forming a improv comedy group

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Speaker 3: oh Man called Isaac Improv, And I spent the late

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Speaker 3: nineties early two thousands just traveling the country going to

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Speaker 3: like every Baptist church we could get into and doing

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Speaker 3: clean short form improv comedy before like anybody knew what

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Speaker 3: it was that we just go Have you seen whose

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Speaker 3: line is it? Anyways, they're like I think so that

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Speaker 3: we're doing that.

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Speaker 2: And again not religious theme, just like clean, just entertainment

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Speaker 2: that is family friendly basically, right.

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Speaker 3: And I would give a little five minute talk at

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Speaker 3: the end about how you know, God gives us second

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Speaker 3: chances and just like a really loving kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: And then that after a decade of that, I was

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Speaker 3: I thought, oh boy, I don't any money. I think

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Speaker 3: the most I made in a year was thirteen thousand,

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Speaker 3: and so I ended up in the Bay Area. I

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Speaker 3: started working at a church helping out with the youth pastors,

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Speaker 3: and then within a year or two, I was it

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Speaker 3: was a big church and I was I became the

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Speaker 3: young adults pastor. So I became a preacher and would

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Speaker 3: do and lead this. It was kind of like this

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Speaker 3: gorilla church within a big church, and we just had

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Speaker 3: they were like tossed us the keys and when and

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Speaker 3: they were like, we're too busy to pay attention to you.

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Speaker 3: Here's a budget, and so we just got to kind

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Speaker 3: of create our version of what a beautiful church would

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Speaker 3: be like.

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Speaker 2: Once again, you got a budget. That's not something that

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Speaker 2: happens in the entertainment industry.

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Speaker 3: I know, I know, it's wild.

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Speaker 2: I'm curious about this time at the school when you

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Speaker 2: were kind of indoctrinated more I guess, I mean, can

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Speaker 2: you talk about why, how you think that happened? Was

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Speaker 2: it just like not being exposed to anything else for

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Speaker 2: that long of a period. Was it isolation? Like? What

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Speaker 2: do you think happened?

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Speaker 3: I went into it, and I reflect on this almost

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Speaker 3: every day still. I'm forty eight now and I'm still

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Speaker 3: thinking about the stuff that happened to me got thirty

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Speaker 3: years ago, where I just accepted everything they said as truth,

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Speaker 3: like and they backed it up. They went, here's the Bible.

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Speaker 3: This all goes back to the Bible. We're not doing

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Speaker 3: this with man's understanding or man's rules and logic. We're

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Speaker 3: doing this with the Bible. So I had a book

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Speaker 3: of the literal true Word of God, and so it

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Speaker 3: was just forced every day to be confronted with this standard.

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Speaker 3: At no point did I ever sort of think for

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Speaker 3: myself is this true? Although I remember I remember the

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Speaker 3: teachers teaching doc drink, going on and on and on

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Speaker 3: saying God thinks this, the world works this way, very

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Speaker 3: specific rules and doctrine about whatever topic it was. And

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Speaker 3: I remember looking around at all the other students who

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Speaker 3: were just like nodding, And I thought of like a bird,

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Speaker 3: a mama bird vomiting into like eager the eager mouth

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Speaker 3: of its child. And I remember sort of like judging

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Speaker 3: my classmates but still doing the same exact thing of

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Speaker 3: no self introspection. But I think it was also there

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Speaker 3: was no voice of descent anywhere. So now I find myself.

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Speaker 3: At the end of that, I got fired. I had

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Speaker 3: a I had like a one time consensual adult third

337
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Speaker 3: base hookup. I like hooked up with somebody a little bit,

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Speaker 3: and then they found out and they fired me, and

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Speaker 3: I had to stand on stage and make a vague

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Speaker 3: confession to sexual sin. Like I think the a couple of.

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Speaker 2: Years before this is once you're a pastor of.

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Speaker 3: The big church and yeah, this maga church. I had

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Speaker 3: just stand on stage and yeah it was. It was

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Speaker 3: very brutal, and it forced me out of the church.

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Speaker 3: And so now I and then I just was like,

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Speaker 3: over the next four years started deconstructing, Like I got

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Speaker 3: I realized after moving to Los Angeles and not going

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Speaker 3: to church, I was like, WHOA, I put myself in

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Speaker 3: the thickest possible bubble where there was no way another

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Speaker 3: point of view could come into my world because all

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Speaker 3: of my friends were Christian, I was, my work was Christian.

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Speaker 3: I was professionally a believer. It was my job to

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Speaker 3: not question shit, but to make sense of it. And

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Speaker 3: so I eventually got out of the bubble and I

355
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Speaker 3: started hearing other points of view, and I was like, Oh,

356
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Speaker 3: evolution sounds legit. Oh, I don't like this part about

357
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Speaker 3: the Bible. Oh the story isn't that great. And on

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Speaker 3: a bunch of different ways, I started deconstructing it. And

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Speaker 3: now I find myself like absolutely addicted, addicted, Like I

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Speaker 3: listen in one point seventy five speed to these youtubes

361
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Speaker 3: of atheist call in shows, and I think what I'm

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Speaker 3: doing is and is wild, Like I'm addicted to it.

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Speaker 3: I'm like, what is this fascination? Like I'm not religious anymore?

364
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Speaker 3: Why am I still drawn to this? And I think

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Speaker 3: what it is is I'm I have to rebuild my

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00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 3: they call it eu epistemology. They rebuild my toolkit for

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Speaker 3: understanding and finding what's true in this world and what's

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Speaker 3: not and learning about like oh, having an evidence space

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Speaker 3: to the time to believe something is when there's enough

370
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Speaker 3: evidence too, And every time somebody comes up to you

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Speaker 3: and says, nobody knows the answer. Hence I know exactly

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Speaker 3: the answer, you know, like nobody we cannot test the supernatural,

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Speaker 3: nobody knows what it is. I know exactly. His name

374
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Speaker 3: is Roger, and he's in my head and I talk

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Speaker 3: to him all day long, and he tells me how

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Speaker 3: to have sex, like, you know, like, yeah, that's a

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Speaker 3: con the same way that somebody is like, I know

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Speaker 3: what the stock market's going to do in the next

379
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Speaker 3: five years, Give me all of your money. It's the

380
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:06,080
Speaker 3: same sort of bullshit confidence. And so I think a long,

381
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Speaker 3: a long winded way to stay is to say I

382
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Speaker 3: am like still working through all of those issues and

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Speaker 3: rebuilding myself.

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Speaker 2: It is so fascinating that that is still something that

385
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Speaker 2: is such a focus of your of your thinking this

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Speaker 2: many years later. I really do think that that kind

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Speaker 2: of religious thinking it can be. It can be so

388
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Speaker 2: hard to unpack in general and to just like transition

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Speaker 2: into a non religious lifestyle. But then it just like

390
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Speaker 2: thinking about your thinking, I feel like, can become such

391
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Speaker 2: an obsession for some of us because our thinking was

392
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Speaker 2: so broken for so long. Yeah, you know, my co

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Speaker 2: host who's not able to be here today. We joke

394
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Speaker 2: a lot about on the show about how she's a

395
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Speaker 2: lot more open minded than I am, and I'm a

396
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Speaker 2: lot more cynical and skeptical and like demanding of you know,

397
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Speaker 2: evidence evidence that I deem you know, scientific whatever. But

398
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Speaker 2: and I but we both grew up really religious. And

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Speaker 2: I wonder if the reason why we are so different,

400
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Speaker 2: or one of the reasons why we are so different,

401
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Speaker 2: is because she didn't believe what she was being sold

402
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Speaker 2: growing up. And I was such a believer and I

403
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Speaker 2: like really like swallowed everything that Mormonism told me, and

404
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,320
Speaker 2: I really like had to have I had to contend

405
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Speaker 2: with the fact that I had been deceived both by

406
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Speaker 2: my church and then by my occult leader guy. And

407
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Speaker 2: that makes you sort of like become so skeptical about

408
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Speaker 2: the world when you've had that like shift of like.

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Speaker 3: Oh oh right, oh you know, well not it's like

410
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Speaker 3: living in a city versus being a tourist. Like as

411
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Speaker 3: a tourist, you dabble in cities. Oh, Tokyo, it's amazing,

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Speaker 3: And oh my god, I have you been a Rakovic

413
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Speaker 3: and you and you and then but sure you just

414
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Speaker 3: you're stay a little bit and you dabble and you

415
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Speaker 3: stay in a hotel and then you take off and

416
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Speaker 3: you have this nice experience and you go, that's a

417
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Speaker 3: wonderful place, or that's an interest. But if you were

418
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Speaker 3: to live in a certain city, like oh, if you

419
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Speaker 3: were born and raised in Tokyo, you would have a

420
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Speaker 3: whole other opinion, because then you see how that city

421
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Speaker 3: really works and you see all its flaws and you yeah, yeah,

422
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,439
Speaker 3: get an analogy. Yeah, hell yeah. Put that on the

423
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Speaker 3: analogy board. One mark for Barrick.

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Speaker 2: What was it like being a pastor in that environment?

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Speaker 2: I mean, were you pastoring within a giant like megachurch

426
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Speaker 2: environment or you said you haven't had like a separate building.

427
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Speaker 2: What was it?

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Speaker 3: It was great, it was It was a great experience

429
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Speaker 3: as a creative person. Like I define myself as a

430
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Speaker 3: creative person now, like I like to make things and

431
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Speaker 3: I like to talk about the process of making things.

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Speaker 3: And it's actually, it's really it's interesting. I've been trying,

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Speaker 3: you know. I did my midlife crisis alone during the pandemic,

434
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Speaker 3: and as we all have, uh, I don't know for

435
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Speaker 3: all midlife, but I had to go, what the fuck

436
00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: is it I'm doing with my life? Where am I going?

437
00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:03,880
Speaker 3: I'm just wandering at this point, Like, so I had

438
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 3: to go, Like my approach was to break down every

439
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 3: area of my life and think, like what did I

440
00:23:10,800 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 3: like from this? What does drawing have to do with sculpting,

441
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,199
Speaker 3: What does sculpting have to do with improv comedy? What

442
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:19,480
Speaker 3: does that have to do with preaching? And I love

443
00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 3: to preach, Like I got to spend a week crafting

444
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,640
Speaker 3: a talk. So I would go, what's true, and let's

445
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:28,480
Speaker 3: start with a little bit of truth, and I'd open

446
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 3: the Bible up to any page with the understanding of

447
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 3: this is truth, and I would point to a verse

448
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,439
Speaker 3: and I'd go, okay, let's find the context of this.

449
00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:41,439
Speaker 3: And I'd study the context of the surrounding passage and

450
00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:43,679
Speaker 3: the book in the verse, and I'd get people's thoughts

451
00:23:43,720 --> 00:23:46,000
Speaker 3: and then I go, okay, this is what this firse means?

452
00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: And then I think, well, what does it mean to me?

453
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:50,720
Speaker 3: And then I'd spend another day or two kind of

454
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 3: like reacting it to it emotionally, and I'd try to

455
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:57,879
Speaker 3: get deep on a metaphysical level, and then I would

456
00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 3: try to craft the most creative time I could, and

457
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:04,399
Speaker 3: I do you know ten fifteen minutes up top talking

458
00:24:04,400 --> 00:24:06,240
Speaker 3: about the subject in a funny way, kind of like

459
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 3: a stand up set, and then I get to this

460
00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 3: teaching phase, and then I'd go to this like emotional

461
00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,520
Speaker 3: I saw it all as putting on like a big show,

462
00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:18,600
Speaker 3: you know, And as a producer, I'm producing and directing

463
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 3: a show and I'm the star of it, and I'm

464
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 3: getting the lighting right in the room, and I'm working

465
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,719
Speaker 3: with my best friend Josh, who was the worship pastor,

466
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:27,679
Speaker 3: and we had a whole band. And then it'd be like,

467
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 3: can you come in when I hit this part of

468
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 3: my message? Can the band start and give this kind

469
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,199
Speaker 3: of like soft, low building thing and then it builds

470
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,600
Speaker 3: up and it ends on this high note. They're like yeah,

471
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,200
Speaker 3: And so we got to create this big like production

472
00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:44,960
Speaker 3: that was hopefully moving and meaningful to people and upbeat.

473
00:24:45,200 --> 00:24:48,919
Speaker 3: And I love that and I've been like chasing that

474
00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 3: high ever since.

475
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:54,720
Speaker 2: So you were a writer, director, performer even maybe before

476
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess you were doing sketch, so you

477
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,200
Speaker 2: conceived of yourself as a performer. But like that is

478
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,560
Speaker 2: fully like making a move. That's what making a movie is.

479
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: You're writing it all out, You're crafting the story. You're

480
00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 2: figuring out when the lights hit where and how to

481
00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 2: produce a particular emotional response, like you've been doing that.

482
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 2: So it makes sense that when you did leave the church,

483
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 2: that is where you headed creatively.

484
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:19,679
Speaker 3: Right, And it goes back to doing with all my

485
00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 3: buddies watching Saturday Night Live as teenagers, Like that dream

486
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 3: didn't die, it just got deferred. So as soon as

487
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 3: I got fired and figured I was done with the church,

488
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 3: like I don't want to see any of you, I'm

489
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,879
Speaker 3: never doing that putting myself in that position again. I

490
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: moved to LA. I had two thousand dollars and I

491
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:43,159
Speaker 3: was thirty, and I had a car that barely worked,

492
00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,919
Speaker 3: and I had like all this emotional trauma for my

493
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 3: life being just just torn, like I lost my career

494
00:25:49,280 --> 00:25:52,800
Speaker 3: and my friends. And I moved to LA and yeah,

495
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 3: got into Luckily for commercials, and then I chased the

496
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 3: dream of trying to be on Saturday Night Live, and

497
00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:02,960
Speaker 3: I chased that. I was forty Oh wow, really, Yeah,

498
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 3: I got into. I got into I took Growling's classes

499
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 3: in Second City, and I got on this team at

500
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 3: uc B and I did the closest I ever got

501
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 3: to chasing that dream was I did a character workshop

502
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,679
Speaker 3: that SNL Casting was at at UCB, and I just

503
00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,360
Speaker 3: remember like giving it my all and and I went

504
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 3: behind the curtain when it was done, and I hyperventilated

505
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,919
Speaker 3: for like five minutes. Like the next the rest of

506
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:27,840
Speaker 3: the people were the show was going on, and I

507
00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 3: was behind the curtain like losing my shit, sort of

508
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,159
Speaker 3: realizing like, oh, I gave it my all and it

509
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 3: wasn't very good and it didn't go well. And yet

510
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 3: another point in my life where I was like, what

511
00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 3: am I fucking doing? This path is this path is

512
00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:44,639
Speaker 3: dead as well. But I but I do view I do.

513
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,199
Speaker 3: I view it all as like wandering, you know. I

514
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 3: like exploring and wandering, and when you wander, you end

515
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:51,800
Speaker 3: up in a bunch of dead ends, but it doesn't

516
00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 3: mean you were in the wrong direction, you know. So

517
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 3: I'm trying to go back and be like, oh, I

518
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 3: like that about being a I liked helping people when

519
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 3: I was a pastor. I liked being deep, and then

520
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 3: I went to LA and you don't ever get to

521
00:27:02,280 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 3: be fucking deep when you do comedy. You just had

522
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 3: to say the stupidest, most inane throwaway gags, which is fun.

523
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,639
Speaker 3: But I miss being thoughtful and I missed, you know,

524
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,040
Speaker 3: I missed people looking at me that way, as if

525
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 3: I had something to say.

526
00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no there's no earnesty in ernesty is not rewarded,

527
00:27:19,000 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: or it's rarely rewarded, I should say in comedy.

528
00:27:22,880 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 4: Hello, I'm Robbia Chaudry. I invite you to join me

529
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 4: every Tuesday for new episodes of Nighty Night, bedtime stories

530
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,520
Speaker 4: to keep you awake now on podcast one. This new

531
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 4: incarnation of Nighty Night is an anthology of stories that

532
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,400
Speaker 4: bring to life classic horror stories, some you're definitely familiar

533
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,840
Speaker 4: with and others you'll be hearing for the first time.

534
00:27:42,200 --> 00:27:44,520
Speaker 4: Join me as I tuck you into bed with stories

535
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,360
Speaker 4: that will leave you sleepless all night long. Get new

536
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 4: episodes of Nighty Night every Tuesday wherever you get your podcasts.

537
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:00,240
Speaker 2: If someone's listening to this podcast and they're like, I've

538
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,120
Speaker 2: left my religion and my whole world has turned upside

539
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: down because we have a lot of listeners like that,

540
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,159
Speaker 2: and I don't know where to go next, and I

541
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 2: don't know who I am. I don't know what I

542
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,200
Speaker 2: believe in, Like what what would you say to someone

543
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 2: like that, like, what what have you learned on your

544
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 2: journey about all of this?

545
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,199
Speaker 3: The thing I've found and I'm excited about and I

546
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 3: want to be doing with the rest of my life,

547
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 3: like I'm figuring out the back end of my of

548
00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:31,200
Speaker 3: my midlife crisis is I've found truth again. And and

549
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 3: I think the truth my new gospel is not Jesus

550
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,360
Speaker 3: in a book and religion and rules. It's more like, hey,

551
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: let's it's it's the creative process. I think the thing

552
00:28:43,360 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 3: that binds you and I together. And I think the

553
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,240
Speaker 3: thing that binds your podcasts your thoughtfulness and your podcast

554
00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 3: with your music, with like your filmmaking, there's a string, right,

555
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 3: those things aren't separated, right, I'm assuming.

556
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I struggle as much you do to find

557
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,040
Speaker 2: the connective tissue, but I think that, I mean, I

558
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:04,960
Speaker 2: feel that they're very connected.

559
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're absolutely And so I think, like the same

560
00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:09,680
Speaker 3: way I would go to the Bible and look at

561
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 3: a verse and go, what's true? What's the way this

562
00:29:13,000 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 3: connects with all the areas of my life. I've been

563
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 3: trying to do that with the creative process, because the

564
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 3: creative process, to me is no like getting a vision,

565
00:29:21,800 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 3: having an idea and seeing it through, and you do

566
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: what you can with your idea, and you use all

567
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 3: your skills and your resources to make this idea happen.

568
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 3: But eventually you're going to hit a problem that kills

569
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 3: the idea for most people. But what artists do is

570
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:39,840
Speaker 3: be creative about that idea and try to find a

571
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,120
Speaker 3: work around, or you learn the skills you need to

572
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 3: learn in order to see the idea through, or you

573
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: find something within yourself or you or you take the

574
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 3: idea in a new direction, or you go like this

575
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 3: path is dead, let me backtrack, and then you just

576
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 3: keep the path going and you keep the idea. And

577
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 3: I think like that path of having an idea and

578
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 3: seeing it through and being honest and confronting problems is

579
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 3: the path of all of getting better, getting better at drawing,

580
00:30:08,040 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 3: but like getting better as a person. This is the

581
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: connective tissue. I found that like, oh, if we can

582
00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 3: just talk about making things and why we make things.

583
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:17,240
Speaker 2: And the.

584
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 3: Difficult nature of making things, like make people go like,

585
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 3: oh I wish I could be an artist. Dude, Every

586
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 3: artist I know is fucking miserable. If you catch anybody,

587
00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 3: no matter the field, if you catch them in the

588
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 3: moment while they're making stuff, you go, hey, how's making pottery.

589
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 3: They're going to go it sucks. I got too much

590
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 3: to do. It's a mess. My hands are tired, clay

591
00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: is too expensive. But at the same time, like on

592
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: the other side of that coin is oh, I'm living

593
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: my dream. So living your dream is often the most

594
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: like miserable experience. I just want to go, like, come

595
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 3: here and chase your dreams with the other people chasing

596
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:59,920
Speaker 3: their dreams and ideas, and like let's talk about it,

597
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 3: and like let's learn strategy from each other which we

598
00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: can apply to the thing we're doing and honestly to

599
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 3: the rest of our life. Does that make sense? Does

600
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 3: that track?

601
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 2: I think so? I think like one of the big

602
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:16,680
Speaker 2: stumbling blocks that comes with, you know, exiting any lifestyle

603
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: or ideology you know, and experiencing a major change in

604
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:23,479
Speaker 2: your life is that it's it can be so tempting

605
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 2: to want to like find the answer, fill the void,

606
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,240
Speaker 2: reach the thing, figure out what it is, what's next,

607
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: you know, and what you're describing in terms of the

608
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,479
Speaker 2: creative process with you hit a problem and so then

609
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: you figure out, you find a way around it, you

610
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,400
Speaker 2: figure it out and you just keep going. It feels

611
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: like to me, that's another way of saying like the

612
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: searching is the thing, like.

613
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: The o oh yeah, the wlandering, Yeah yeah yeah.

614
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: The answer there isn't going to be like this concrete

615
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 2: answer of like, aha, this is this is now what

616
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 2: life is about. Now that I have left my religion,

617
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: I have discovered the answer, the new answer, and it's

618
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:02,520
Speaker 2: like that's it's gonna look different for everyone and some

619
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:04,800
Speaker 2: some of sometimes we will really find a concrete thing

620
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,040
Speaker 2: that gives us meaning in that way. But the searching

621
00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,959
Speaker 2: is okay, Like the wandering is it could there's something

622
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: beautiful in not knowing and like being willing to embrace

623
00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:16,880
Speaker 2: that not knowing. It takes a lot of bravery, I think,

624
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 2: to be like, for the first time in my life,

625
00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:21,640
Speaker 2: I don't know the answer and that's okay, and I'm

626
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 2: going to embrace that and treat it as an adventure

627
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: like that is. It's a really scary thing to do,

628
00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:31,240
Speaker 2: but I think it's a worthwhile endeavor, shall we say,

629
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: you and I have, I mean, aside from just being

630
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: general creatives and living in Los Angeles, like we share

631
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 2: this sort of desire to do a lot of things

632
00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 2: and like take hard turn like hard pivots and just

633
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 2: like be like, all right, well, I guess at this

634
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 2: stage in my life, I'm going to start this entirely

635
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 2: new thing out of nowhere for some breath.

636
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 3: In the hardest possible field too. Yeah, it's like, yeah,

637
00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:00,960
Speaker 3: I'm an make my living as an at in commercials,

638
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 3: and but to supplement that, my brilliant idea is to

639
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 3: sell art. Like oh yeah, you're like yet another field

640
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 3: where I am in the back of the line and

641
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 3: I don't know what I'm doing and it's just as

642
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 3: it's even more silly than trying to act, is trying

643
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:20,360
Speaker 3: to make a living selling art. This is the current

644
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 3: journey and like the thought process I've had this week

645
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:27,000
Speaker 3: of like what am I doing? But yeah, we do

646
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 3: do hard pivots. I think. I think that's ingrained in us.

647
00:33:31,920 --> 00:33:34,280
Speaker 3: Right does that play how does that play out? And

648
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 3: your Do you do that in your non artistic areas

649
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 3: of your life?

650
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,760
Speaker 2: I think so? I mean I think like my whole life,

651
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 2: I guess, like I grew up, we moved a lot,

652
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 2: so I got very comfortable with like, Okay, I am

653
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 2: starting over now, I am making new friends. And then

654
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 2: of course, we had our cult experience and we had

655
00:33:53,160 --> 00:33:54,760
Speaker 2: to be, like I had to very at a very

656
00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 2: young age, be like, oh, okay, I guess that thing

657
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 2: I believed isn't the thing anymore, so I'm just gonna

658
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: move forward. So I think that sort of produced an

659
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: inherent flexibility that can be good and can be very

660
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,359
Speaker 2: bad as well, because I think on some level, I'm

661
00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 2: just easily bored and i want something new because I'm

662
00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,640
Speaker 2: so used to these like dramatic changes in my life.

663
00:34:15,719 --> 00:34:19,000
Speaker 2: But but i also look back on myself as a kid,

664
00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: and I'm like, I always wanted to do everything. I

665
00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:26,440
Speaker 2: always was writing, I started a little newsletter for my friends.

666
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 2: I wrote a book on how to be ventriloquized. As

667
00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,439
Speaker 2: a child, I was, you know, singing, and I wanted

668
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:34,319
Speaker 2: to act, and I wanted to like teach people things

669
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: and be a radio DJ. And like, there's just so

670
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:38,719
Speaker 2: many things that I was pursuing all at once as

671
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: a child and I and that has not left me

672
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: except now I'm just trying really hard to focus it

673
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 2: to like four things instead of like ten things. You know.

674
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,719
Speaker 3: It's because yeah, I've been thinking, how, oh I need

675
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:56,839
Speaker 3: a budget that there I have never budgeted my creative experience.

676
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,000
Speaker 3: I've often gone like, oh, I have this idea, I'm

677
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,480
Speaker 3: going to do it, and I'm gonna do this idea,

678
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 3: and I'm I also going to do this other fee,

679
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: and then I'm realizing like, oh, right now. For the

680
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 3: past five years, I've been like an actor, which means

681
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 3: I don't have a job, I don't have kids. I

682
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 3: am completely free to chase all my creative desires. It

683
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 3: is this crazy freedom that people would kill for, and

684
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 3: I love it. That being said, I am so broke

685
00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 3: and I don't know where we're you know, oh rents

686
00:35:28,280 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 3: do tomorrow, and I don't know where it is, where

687
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,520
Speaker 3: it's coming from, and so it comes with a lot

688
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 3: of detriments. But that being said, here I am being

689
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 3: able to create all day. I have infinite as much

690
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: energy as I could have, and I still find myself, Oh,

691
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 3: I only have like four good hours in the day,

692
00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: like I work all day, but I have four and

693
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:50,279
Speaker 3: so if I spend that four hours of energy, like

694
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,799
Speaker 3: pure raw creative energy, I can't do anything else. So

695
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 3: all of my other projects aren't getting finished, and I

696
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: just I feel like I'm spinning my wheel because I

697
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 3: have thirty unfinished projects, and so I'm realizing, like, oh,

698
00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:07,440
Speaker 3: I can have three projects, and but that sucks, right

699
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,880
Speaker 3: because I want to do forty. So I'm realizing the

700
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 3: only I can have a short term money making project,

701
00:36:13,360 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 3: I have a mid term like big project I want

702
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 3: to make another independent movie or do something of that size.

703
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: And then I have like my long term goals, so

704
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,759
Speaker 3: I can't if I have something else I want to do,

705
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 3: it's got to go in one of those three buckets. Yeah,

706
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,000
Speaker 3: And so then the creativity becomes, oh, how do I

707
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,160
Speaker 3: fit in this drawing I want to do? Say I

708
00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,040
Speaker 3: want to sculpt, which bucket does that go into? Because

709
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 3: it can't be its own idea. I've got to merge

710
00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:40,799
Speaker 3: it with my greater ideas and hopefully over time those

711
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 3: short term, midterm, and long term goals will ultimately form

712
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 3: one big blob itself. So it's you know what I mean,

713
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 3: Like I need to be smart about this.

714
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I totally I mean I totally relate, Like I

715
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 2: have had to sit down with myself and be like,

716
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: what do I really what do I actually want my

717
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 2: future to look? Like?

718
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 4: Like?

719
00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,880
Speaker 2: I have so many things I'm excited about and want

720
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:01,960
Speaker 2: to do. But what do I really want and what

721
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:03,359
Speaker 2: am I going to do that's actually going to make

722
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:06,279
Speaker 2: me money? Because yes, that is it. That is a

723
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 2: major important factor.

724
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 3: Especially yeah, oh yeah, if this was this is my

725
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:17,360
Speaker 3: favorite topic, like I would want to now pitch. I

726
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:20,520
Speaker 3: would now want to go and find the connective threads

727
00:37:20,600 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 3: between all these areas of your life, so that so

728
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 3: that we could understand like what is it that drives you?

729
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 3: What is it that where your strengths are in each

730
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 3: of these and where are your weaknesses and how you know,

731
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 3: if you were to put them, say you were to

732
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:38,600
Speaker 3: chart this somehow on a on a piece of cellophane,

733
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:42,920
Speaker 3: and then you'd overlay it with podcasts, this podcast, what

734
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 3: you're good at, what where you're going, what do you

735
00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 3: like doing it? And then you overlay it with the

736
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,359
Speaker 3: same thing but for music, and then all these other

737
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 3: areas relationships and all your other pursuits, and you start

738
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: seeing like, oh, there's places where these dots are lining up,

739
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:01,959
Speaker 3: whether they're where like oh, these things connect here big time.

740
00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,640
Speaker 3: And part of the journey I think for creative people

741
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 3: like us is I'm an actor and let's say a sculptor.

742
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 3: I am one hundred thousand people back in line. For actors,

743
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: there's one hundred thousand people in front of me in line, right.

744
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:20,560
Speaker 3: Everybody's doing that out here. There's nothing special about me.

745
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:22,400
Speaker 3: As an actor. I could try to be a really

746
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 3: good actor, but I'm still like way back in line.

747
00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 3: And then as an artist, I'm even further back in

748
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 3: line because I'm not you know, but in these places

749
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,839
Speaker 3: where are are, In those places where you go, oh,

750
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 3: look at all this clumping of dots, that's the place

751
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 3: where I think we become unstoppable. You know, Like you

752
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 3: ever go to a meeting when you pitch a movie

753
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,200
Speaker 3: and you bring a script and they give the script

754
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 3: and go and they read it and they go, it's good.

755
00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 3: But why is this your story? Why why are you

756
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 3: telling the story? And you know, I don't know. There's

757
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,399
Speaker 3: good ideas. But in the places that we go where

758
00:38:56,440 --> 00:39:00,399
Speaker 3: all our interest in shit overlap, like we're unstoppable, that's

759
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 3: the place where we go. I know it's true, and

760
00:39:02,600 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 3: I know why I'm doing it. It's strung.

761
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, totally. I think you're right. And and to like,

762
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,960
Speaker 2: for the for those who are not creatives or not

763
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 2: professional creatives or whatever, I think that there's something really

764
00:39:15,880 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 2: interesting there too, in terms of like you know, you

765
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: were talking about how when you were a pastor, you

766
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: would open the Bible and look at a line and

767
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:25,120
Speaker 2: like think about it and try to craft what's true

768
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:27,839
Speaker 2: about it and craft it into something. And I think

769
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:30,359
Speaker 2: when you leave a religion or you leave an ideology,

770
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 2: you have to kind of craft your new self. And

771
00:39:32,840 --> 00:39:35,200
Speaker 2: that can be really really hard to do. It can

772
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:38,480
Speaker 2: feel like this just big void. But if you take

773
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: these We've talked to this, We've talked to Steve Hasson

774
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: about this a little bit. You know, for a most

775
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: cult expert, how you have to kind of like build

776
00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:50,399
Speaker 2: your build yourself, build your new identity. And what you're

777
00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:54,839
Speaker 2: describing also sounds like a really useful tool for doing that.

778
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,319
Speaker 2: Like what do I love? Where do I feel like myself?

779
00:39:58,600 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 2: What outside of the you're aboutside of the religion? What

780
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 2: are the areas that I feel like I personally flourish

781
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 2: in and I'm good at? And like how can I

782
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 2: build a new identity off of that? You know, it's

783
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:16,040
Speaker 2: it is a creative process in itself, constructing this new

784
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 2: self after you leave something. You know, I feel like

785
00:40:21,560 --> 00:40:24,239
Speaker 2: there's even I don't know, there's like a cool tool

786
00:40:24,320 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: in there somewhere for like using the creative process to

787
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 2: figure out what your life is going to look like

788
00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: now and who you are now and where you're going

789
00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: to find your meaning from, even if it's not you know,

790
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: even if it's not fully baked yet or whatever.

791
00:40:37,600 --> 00:40:40,600
Speaker 3: I used to have this podcast called We're Starting a cult,

792
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:41,959
Speaker 3: right you did?

793
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: I forgot about that, yeah, And.

794
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 3: It was sort of like, let's go through cults. I'm

795
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 3: sure I'm sure you could see why this podcast didn't

796
00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 3: last that long because it was like, let's take a

797
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,359
Speaker 3: humorous look at cults in the past and then take

798
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,239
Speaker 3: like what's the what do we want to do and

799
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 3: what should we take from this idea for our cult?

800
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,760
Speaker 3: And I'd play it like I was like a shitty

801
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:03,520
Speaker 3: guy who just wanted to get laid and get power

802
00:41:03,560 --> 00:41:07,280
Speaker 3: and everything. But then oh, my god, every cult story

803
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 3: is horrific, and you'd be like, ha ha ha, let's

804
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,520
Speaker 3: make a little joke, and then you realize like, oh,

805
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 3: this is just like it's just full of people in

806
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 3: deep pain, terrible terrible, like, oh, there's nothing, And so

807
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 3: after eight episodes, I was just kind of done, like no,

808
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:24,439
Speaker 3: I don't want to be a cult leader. I never

809
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:26,400
Speaker 3: want to do anything. I would like to just be

810
00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:29,840
Speaker 3: at most like a person encouraging other people and helping

811
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,120
Speaker 3: give them resources.

812
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally, totally, And I feel some of that as well,

813
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 2: like it's important to me to try to help people

814
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 2: as much as possible in my life. You know, I

815
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 2: just don't have the instinct to necessarily like do it

816
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 2: in a way that's gonna earned me lots of power

817
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,440
Speaker 2: over others. You know. I don't know, but money, money corrupts.

818
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 2: Who knows where the col leader instinct comes from.

819
00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:56,400
Speaker 3: I used to never exercise, and I'd never eat like

820
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,080
Speaker 3: spicy foods. I was very happy. I used to brag

821
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:03,600
Speaker 3: about how I'd never eat spicy foods. And anyway, I'm

822
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 3: going to tie this together. So one time, I so

823
00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:07,919
Speaker 3: I got this personal trainer as someone who never never

824
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,439
Speaker 3: ever exercised, and I knew, like, oh, I have high

825
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,000
Speaker 3: blood pressure. I knew my body was sort of falling apart,

826
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 3: and I didn't like how I looked. So I got

827
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,440
Speaker 3: this personal trainer and I was like, teach me how

828
00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:19,680
Speaker 3: to exercise, and so she'd had me do win planks

829
00:42:19,680 --> 00:42:22,160
Speaker 3: and stuff, and I just complained the whole time, and

830
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: after three or four sessions, she goes, do you know

831
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:28,120
Speaker 3: what your problem is? Which is the worst question, and

832
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,520
Speaker 3: I go w She goes, you don't like being uncomfortable?

833
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 3: And I like, couldn't. I was like, yeah, obviously, who

834
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:38,920
Speaker 3: likes being uncomfortable? But it's that she never followed up.

835
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,120
Speaker 3: But I've been thinking about it over the years, and

836
00:42:41,200 --> 00:42:45,920
Speaker 3: I realized, like I have been confusing being uncomfortable with pain.

837
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:50,279
Speaker 3: That exercise was uncomfortable, so it was pain, which made

838
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 3: it was bad, and spicy food hurt my mouth, so

839
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 3: it was bad. And I was living my whole life

840
00:42:58,200 --> 00:43:03,200
Speaker 3: avoiding discomfort intellectually as well, in the same path of like, oh,

841
00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,000
Speaker 3: this subject is so uncomfortable for me that I would

842
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 3: have to like lose all these core beliefs in my life, right,

843
00:43:10,880 --> 00:43:13,040
Speaker 3: I would have to lose all purpose. I would have

844
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:15,239
Speaker 3: to lose it to go like, oh my god, I

845
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:17,759
Speaker 3: kind of I'm on my own and there's no such

846
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 3: thing as fate and life could end badly for me,

847
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,520
Speaker 3: Like these are those aren't happy thoughts? So your brain

848
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:26,799
Speaker 3: paints over them. I don't know, I feel like this

849
00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:28,920
Speaker 3: is all kind of saying the same thing of like

850
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:33,759
Speaker 3: it's uncomfortable, but it's not necessarily pain. It's not a

851
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 3: signifier that it's bad for you. It's just it's working

852
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:40,080
Speaker 3: out sucks. It's what it is, well.

853
00:43:39,920 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 2: Right, But I mean what you're describing is discomfort, physical discomfort.

854
00:43:45,520 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 2: Maybe not so much in the spicy food arena, but

855
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 2: in terms of working out, physical discomfort that's really good

856
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,480
Speaker 2: for you and ultimately will lead to this like really

857
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 2: beautiful result, which is that like your body is better,

858
00:43:56,800 --> 00:44:01,480
Speaker 2: it's healthier, it looks better, right, And I think that

859
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 2: intellectually and emotionally, like the more I think that can

860
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 2: very much be the same thing. There's this period of discomfort,

861
00:44:08,560 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 2: in this period of maybe a little bit of horror,

862
00:44:10,719 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: to be honest, unpacking and deconstructing and questioning. And then

863
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,640
Speaker 2: on the other side of that, though, is this totally

864
00:44:18,760 --> 00:44:22,759
Speaker 2: like new reality and this better healthier you That was

865
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,719
Speaker 2: worth it in the end, and we were just preventing

866
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,200
Speaker 2: ourselves from growing by avoiding that discomfort, Like there's so

867
00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: much growth on the other side of that.

868
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 3: I feel like, because yeah, it's truth. It's every we

869
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 3: all say we love truth, and we all say that

870
00:44:37,200 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 3: the truth will set us free. But don't fucking show

871
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,919
Speaker 3: me too much truth. You know, people people will say

872
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 3: that they want truth and then live in a lie.

873
00:44:49,520 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 3: Because I was I was talking to a buddy about

874
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:56,240
Speaker 3: all this, and he's a Christian, really nice Christian guy,

875
00:44:56,440 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 3: and he's very very happiness church, super happy, and we

876
00:45:00,760 --> 00:45:03,080
Speaker 3: were talking about all this stuff, and part of me

877
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 3: was going, like, why am I Why am I trying

878
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:09,320
Speaker 3: to actively ruin this guy's life by yeah, putting doubt

879
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,920
Speaker 3: in his head that maybe his whole worldview isn't actually

880
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,239
Speaker 3: built on something solid. But I got to you know,

881
00:45:16,640 --> 00:45:19,080
Speaker 3: that's truth. Though at the other side of truth, it's

882
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,439
Speaker 3: truth about truth is that the other side of it

883
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 3: is it's not It might not be good. I don't know.

884
00:45:24,360 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: Not everyone values truth, you know, like some people value

885
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: their community and their lifestyle, and I think there's absolutely

886
00:45:31,440 --> 00:45:34,440
Speaker 2: nothing wrong with that as long as it's positive and healthy,

887
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,320
Speaker 2: and you know, like, there is nothing wrong with believing

888
00:45:37,360 --> 00:45:41,000
Speaker 2: in something and choosing belief over truth.

889
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,000
Speaker 3: Wait, I disagree of truth. Oh that's what they think. Well,

890
00:45:45,000 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 3: I disagree with the idea that I think it's always

891
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 3: bad idea to turn your back on truth.

892
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:52,160
Speaker 2: I mean, I do two. But in terms of like

893
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 2: if a religion is working for someone and it's not

894
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,800
Speaker 2: harming anyone, like, and it's just that you go to

895
00:45:58,920 --> 00:46:01,240
Speaker 2: church once a week and you have your pot looks

896
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: and you know, like, I don't think that it is

897
00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:07,719
Speaker 2: necessarily I don't think that everybody needs to be questioning

898
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 2: and unpacking. I don't think my grandma needs to, like,

899
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: you know, interrogate the reality of what her her pastor's saying,

900
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 2: because she doesn't have that much life left and I

901
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: don't necessarily think it's useful for her to experience that

902
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,560
Speaker 2: sort of earth shattering thing.

903
00:46:27,800 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 3: Right, I guess from the viewpoint of like me, of

904
00:46:31,440 --> 00:46:34,719
Speaker 3: you and me pushing our thoughts on other people. But

905
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:37,480
Speaker 3: I just mean it, I know, mean, yeah, people are

906
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 3: free to live and believe whatever they want, and if

907
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 3: they want to have a conversation with me or bring

908
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 3: me on their podcast, like, I'll talk about this. But

909
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,040
Speaker 3: I'm not, yeah, trying to force this down people's throats.

910
00:46:47,080 --> 00:46:50,480
Speaker 3: But like, personally, it's like, sure, you can believe in

911
00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:54,239
Speaker 3: Santa Claus. That's a very comforting belief that there is

912
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:58,839
Speaker 3: a magical person who knows you and loves you and

913
00:46:58,920 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 3: gives you things and you know you got to be

914
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:02,960
Speaker 3: good or you're not going to get it, but you

915
00:47:02,960 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 3: always get it. And you know that is a world view.

916
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: But the truth sucks in comparison to that of like no,

917
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 3: it's just your parents. But if you don't learn that

918
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 3: important truth, like you're never going to learn how to

919
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:18,120
Speaker 3: give gifts, you know what I mean, Like you're never

920
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 3: gonna like you're never gonna give a gift because and

921
00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:23,400
Speaker 3: you you're never gonna learn how to give. You just

922
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:26,960
Speaker 3: fucked and you don't see like people, each present I

923
00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 3: get is a sacrifice from somebody else. There's truth there,

924
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:33,080
Speaker 3: there's like deeper meaning, you know, and by going like

925
00:47:33,200 --> 00:47:35,720
Speaker 3: I choose to believe in Santa Claus because it's nice,

926
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 3: like well you're just sort of like fucking yourself over, yeah,

927
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:40,240
Speaker 3: I mean.

928
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: And I don't have the answers right, so like it's

929
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,800
Speaker 2: to me, it's an exploration of like what I think,

930
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,720
Speaker 2: what I believe. But like if I were to claim

931
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:51,360
Speaker 2: that I know better than I'm just like the co leaders,

932
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:53,439
Speaker 2: you know, if I think I have the answer, then

933
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:54,839
Speaker 2: what does from them?

934
00:47:55,160 --> 00:47:58,280
Speaker 3: Is that true? Do you not think you have any

935
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:03,160
Speaker 3: truth or any understanding that's important that they don't have.

936
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I think I have a value, which is

937
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:10,440
Speaker 2: the pursuit of truth and a fundamental prioritization of evidence

938
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:15,919
Speaker 2: that potentially can help me see things that someone who

939
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:17,840
Speaker 2: hasn't gotten there yet might not be able to see.

940
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,080
Speaker 3: So you have a toolbox. Yeah, you have a toolbox.

941
00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 3: That's important.

942
00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:26,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

943
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:29,560
Speaker 3: And I think like that that is the thing that

944
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 3: you can be a preacher about, is the toolbox, because

945
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 3: you can go these are very good tools, and you

946
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 3: know what I mean that these aren't the truth themselves,

947
00:48:40,520 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 3: but I feel like, on one hand, what do I

948
00:48:43,440 --> 00:48:45,719
Speaker 3: have that people don't have? But I do feel like

949
00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:48,319
Speaker 3: I found this important tool. That's how I felt when

950
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,560
Speaker 3: I got on TikTok and I was like, ah, oh,

951
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 3: this is a new tool to help me get across

952
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,680
Speaker 3: and one of the cool things. Yeah, sorry, I was

953
00:48:56,680 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 3: going to take it down another tangent.

954
00:48:58,320 --> 00:48:59,040
Speaker 1: No, I want to know.

955
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 3: One of the things I liked about TikTok was as

956
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:04,400
Speaker 3: I was throwing everything against the wall, like here's a drawing,

957
00:49:04,400 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 3: here's this, here's a funny voice, here's like a seven

958
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 3: second vine. And then but I started to talk long form,

959
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:14,240
Speaker 3: I'd just start doing TikTok lives and just make stuff

960
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 3: so you'd see the thing I'm making and then you'd

961
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 3: see my little face in the corner. And I would

962
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:23,640
Speaker 3: just talk like this about creating and I found like, oh,

963
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 3: I would draw like twelve, only twelve people would watch me.

964
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 3: I'd be on for a couple hours and only twelve

965
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 3: people are watching me. But those twelve people fucking got it,

966
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:35,320
Speaker 3: and they were plugged in and they watched the whole

967
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 3: time and talk to me the whole time and would

968
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 3: find me on other lives. And I think like, oh,

969
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:46,839
Speaker 3: by that exploring, I've found like, oh, I do have

970
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,720
Speaker 3: a voice of just being able to talk about making

971
00:49:49,800 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 3: things and philosophizing just like, oh, this is a tool

972
00:49:53,960 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 3: that I have. Not that I know the truth, but

973
00:49:55,680 --> 00:49:58,279
Speaker 3: I feel like the tool of like let's talk creativity

974
00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 3: and let's draw it back our lives. Like I'm going

975
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,040
Speaker 3: to be proud of that tool, you know, but not

976
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:07,040
Speaker 3: necessarily my genius as a teacher, right.

977
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, I think that's ultimately my goal. And you know,

978
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:18,840
Speaker 2: I have this very strong urge and instinct in me

979
00:50:19,120 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 2: to like fight for to not just be a creative,

980
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,439
Speaker 2: like to be a creative and to make my art

981
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:31,719
Speaker 2: but also to like speak to truth in the political

982
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 2: sphere and then in just like the societal sphere and

983
00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 2: how we think about things. And I think ultimately all

984
00:50:38,239 --> 00:50:40,560
Speaker 2: I really want from that is to like help empower

985
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 2: other people to have better tools, because I do think

986
00:50:43,880 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: the world will get better once we're all living a

987
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:48,759
Speaker 2: little bit more in reality. The health I just did

988
00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 2: this video yesterday about the healthcare system and how how

989
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 2: my brother was failed by it, and how there's so

990
00:50:57,120 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 2: many comments, so many comments from people being like my

991
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,759
Speaker 2: loved one also couldn't get into rehab and she died.

992
00:51:03,280 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: You know, my family went into the million dollars of

993
00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 2: debt because of a heart attack. There's just so much

994
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:13,839
Speaker 2: shit like that, And I'm like, yeah, I mean this

995
00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 2: is sort of going off track a little bit, but like,

996
00:51:16,480 --> 00:51:18,680
Speaker 2: in order to be able to change these things, we

997
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,040
Speaker 2: have to be able to question them, and in order

998
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 2: to question them, we do need these tools, these modes

999
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:28,080
Speaker 2: of thinking that are like, hmm, can things be different

1000
00:51:28,120 --> 00:51:30,600
Speaker 2: than they are? Do I need to accept things how

1001
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 2: they are? Or can I look deeper and look into

1002
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 2: my own resistance to that? And what I hope to

1003
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,759
Speaker 2: provide for people is like just a little more access

1004
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 2: to those tools and that vehicle of just like looking

1005
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:46,840
Speaker 2: deeper and thinking better.

1006
00:51:47,560 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think, yeah, I think I agree. It's like

1007
00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 3: one of the things in the toolbox is observation. It's

1008
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:57,160
Speaker 3: like I said, with a drawing is, Oh, if you

1009
00:51:57,160 --> 00:51:58,879
Speaker 3: want to draw something, you have to like look at

1010
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 3: the thing that you're drying, and then you have to

1011
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 3: look at the line you made and notice how is

1012
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,799
Speaker 3: this line I made different than the microphone? And then

1013
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 3: observing things is just like I was talking to a

1014
00:52:11,239 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 3: friend who had who was working on a painting that

1015
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 3: they didn't want to work on anymore, and they're like,

1016
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 3: I don't know how to get excited about this thing.

1017
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:20,239
Speaker 3: I don't even know where to start. And my suggestion

1018
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 3: was like just look at it, just stop avoid just

1019
00:52:23,920 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 3: you don't have to work on it. Just take it

1020
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,319
Speaker 3: out and sit down in front of it and look

1021
00:52:28,360 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 3: at it, observe it. And then all of a sudden,

1022
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 3: you're gonna your brain's gonna pick up on it and like,

1023
00:52:32,520 --> 00:52:34,919
Speaker 3: oh yeah, that's the part I didn't like. Oh yeah,

1024
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:37,000
Speaker 3: but that's the part I liked. And you're going to

1025
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 3: start like getting back into the journey, and then you're

1026
00:52:39,719 --> 00:52:41,920
Speaker 3: fighting the good fight, you're going to be back to painting.

1027
00:52:41,960 --> 00:52:44,840
Speaker 3: And I think, like, if it seems like that's the

1028
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:48,240
Speaker 3: connection is sure, we've got like a lot of shit

1029
00:52:48,360 --> 00:52:50,800
Speaker 3: wrong with us and a lot of we're using a

1030
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 3: lot of the wrong tools, and we're all a bit lost,

1031
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 3: and it's going to be painful to turn our lives

1032
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:58,719
Speaker 3: around and find all those things again. But the way

1033
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,160
Speaker 3: to just get there, to just observe it. We don't

1034
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,880
Speaker 3: have to know everything or know how to fix ourselves,

1035
00:53:04,920 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 3: but to just sit and like look at ourselves and

1036
00:53:08,000 --> 00:53:10,680
Speaker 3: look at our lives and how we think. And I think,

1037
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 3: you know, if you're an interesting creative person, you know,

1038
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:16,279
Speaker 3: I think your brain's just gonna kick in and you're

1039
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:18,880
Speaker 3: gonna you're not gonna help yourself. You'll be like a

1040
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 3: philosophy student soon, you know. Yeah, if your brain's gonna

1041
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 3: wander and you like solving problems, right, I think that

1042
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:30,400
Speaker 3: I don't know. I like solving problems. I think you

1043
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 3: do too. And I think like we give ourselves extra

1044
00:53:33,719 --> 00:53:37,239
Speaker 3: problems as artists because that's interesting artists Like, oh I

1045
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,200
Speaker 3: could draw a cab, What if I sculpted it? What

1046
00:53:39,239 --> 00:53:41,440
Speaker 3: if I did it out of this weird material. What

1047
00:53:41,520 --> 00:53:45,239
Speaker 3: if I had this sculpture means something? Yeah, where would

1048
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:46,480
Speaker 3: I put it? How do we get people to look

1049
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 3: at it? I'm just rambling now.

1050
00:53:48,080 --> 00:53:52,239
Speaker 2: I love it. It's a good ramble. I do feel like noticing,

1051
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 2: just like pausing and noticing before reacting, before resisting an idea,

1052
00:53:59,719 --> 00:54:03,240
Speaker 2: is just pausing and noticing, Like why do I feel

1053
00:54:03,280 --> 00:54:06,120
Speaker 2: so charged about this? Where is it coming from? What

1054
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:09,200
Speaker 2: do I feel as being attacked? You know? What is

1055
00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,760
Speaker 2: what is really happening in this institution, in this group

1056
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,919
Speaker 2: and this religion? Like just pausing and looking, I think

1057
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 2: is like an excellent jumping off point for anyone who's

1058
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 2: like what the fuck do I do? I mean, it

1059
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,080
Speaker 2: applies to every area of life, you know, like what

1060
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:27,279
Speaker 2: do I do next? What do I care about? How

1061
00:54:27,320 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 2: do I how do I be a better partner? How

1062
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: do I be a better father? You know whatever? Like

1063
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: stop and observe. It's so simple. It's just mindfulness, Bear,

1064
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:37,240
Speaker 2: It's just mindfulness.

1065
00:54:37,440 --> 00:54:41,120
Speaker 3: I know I'm mindfulness, but.

1066
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,479
Speaker 2: I do think that that is you know, it's there's

1067
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:48,680
Speaker 2: an there is an ancient wisdom in just noticing without

1068
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 2: reacting and letting the thoughts be there and trying to

1069
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:55,080
Speaker 2: see where they're coming from. And and it also is

1070
00:54:55,160 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 2: a really useful creative tool. When I'm stuck on a script,

1071
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 2: it's because so much the time, it's because I'm like, well,

1072
00:55:01,640 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 2: how do I fix it? How do I fix how

1073
00:55:02,760 --> 00:55:05,080
Speaker 2: do I fix it? And I'm not just like taking

1074
00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:08,160
Speaker 2: it in without the pressure, without the added pressure of

1075
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:09,680
Speaker 2: like I have to do something right now, you know.

1076
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:14,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, to sit in the uncomfortability, uncomfortable and comfortableness of

1077
00:55:15,000 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 3: the moment. Yeah, there you go.

1078
00:55:17,280 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 2: Yeah good. And that's what it all comes down to,

1079
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:23,799
Speaker 2: right letting letting ourselves be uncomfortable because there's something beautiful

1080
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 2: on the other side.

1081
00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 3: Yeah that it's not. Oh yeah, when that blew, I

1082
00:55:27,880 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 3: mean I started to eat spicy foods and enjoy it,

1083
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,480
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh my god, what else have

1084
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,120
Speaker 3: I been doing in my life? That's like, like, what

1085
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 3: areas have I been avoiding because they're uncomfortable? And now,

1086
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:43,200
Speaker 3: you know, I dropped forty pounds just from doing from

1087
00:55:43,239 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 3: being a little you know, I now enjoy being uncomfortable,

1088
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,839
Speaker 3: like exercise and stuff, not all of it, but I'm

1089
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:51,799
Speaker 3: mind it a little bit more.

1090
00:55:52,400 --> 00:55:54,400
Speaker 2: I'm getting there. I'm working on it.

1091
00:55:55,080 --> 00:55:57,640
Speaker 3: The interesting place is the uncomfortable place. Oh that's why

1092
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,239
Speaker 3: we make things difficult for ourselves as as artists, like

1093
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:04,920
Speaker 3: we think we like it really uncomfortable because on the

1094
00:56:04,920 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 3: other side of it some really interesting stuff.

1095
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. I love this. I love it. This is

1096
00:56:12,520 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 2: an unconventional episode, but it's what my soul needed right now.

1097
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:18,800
Speaker 2: I appreciate you joining me today.

1098
00:56:18,600 --> 00:56:20,880
Speaker 3: Very good. I was so excited to talk about this

1099
00:56:20,880 --> 00:56:21,400
Speaker 3: stuff with you.

1100
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, man's where can people find you on the internet.

1101
00:56:26,239 --> 00:56:30,120
Speaker 3: Look, this is a great question. Barrecardley dot com. I

1102
00:56:30,160 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 3: got a bunch of art I'm trying to sell. I

1103
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 3: have a bunch of Christmas ornaments that are nipples and butts.

1104
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 3: None of the nipples have sold, and I made the

1105
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:44,839
Speaker 3: most ultra realistic nipple ornaments. So that's all in Barrockcardley

1106
00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 3: dot com and then check me out on Instagram at

1107
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 3: Barrick Hardley. I'm always coming up with something new, and.

1108
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,920
Speaker 2: Barreck is like Barck without the Sea, And I just

1109
00:56:52,920 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: want to give a shout out because you have some

1110
00:56:54,760 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 2: of the coolest, weirdest art. You have a like what

1111
00:56:58,560 --> 00:57:00,800
Speaker 2: is it a diorama or sculpture? How would you describe

1112
00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:03,440
Speaker 2: the Jaws scene that you have on yours, right.

1113
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:06,120
Speaker 3: I just sold that, Yeah you did like a polymer

1114
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:10,600
Speaker 3: clay relief. Yeah, of the scene and Jaws where everybody's singing.

1115
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 2: You should never stop doing a million things because you're

1116
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:17,120
Speaker 2: so good at all of them. And I encourage people

1117
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 2: to buy your art and to engage with your ideas

1118
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:23,960
Speaker 2: about religion and creativity because it's all very special.

1119
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 3: Thanks Lola, You're welcome. I think it's so cool what

1120
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,600
Speaker 3: you're doing, and you're You're always an inspiration to me

1121
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 3: as well, Like it's nice to see somebody out there

1122
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 3: who's also like banging down five or six different doors.

1123
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 3: And I mean, I can't imagine what goes into like

1124
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,640
Speaker 3: making and recording music and then promoting it and then

1125
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:45,480
Speaker 3: oh my god, and you just you do. You choose

1126
00:57:45,520 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 3: a lot of difficult things I do, and you do

1127
00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 3: them well, and you know, I think I can see

1128
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:57,040
Speaker 3: and recognize the struggle and really admire it.

1129
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,360
Speaker 2: Thank you, artists to artists, Thank you so much for

1130
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 2: joining me, Barrick. This has been wonderful. Thank you all Right, guys.

1131
00:58:04,960 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: That concludes I think my first actual solo interview of

1132
00:58:09,040 --> 00:58:11,720
Speaker 2: trust Me, which feels very weird to be honest, but

1133
00:58:11,800 --> 00:58:14,240
Speaker 2: it was so lovely talking to Barrick. And if you're

1134
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:16,840
Speaker 2: wondering if I would join his cult, the answer is yes.

1135
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: But anyway, I hope that this conversation was not too

1136
00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:21,920
Speaker 2: our track of cults and you found it as enriching

1137
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 2: as I did, or at least like moderately mildly and riching.

1138
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 2: I would settle for mildly for sure. I think that's

1139
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:29,760
Speaker 2: it for me. I think I don't need to dwell

1140
00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 2: here and stay here and continue to talk, So I'm

1141
00:58:32,120 --> 00:58:34,040
Speaker 2: just gonna stop talking now. This is what happens once

1142
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:36,640
Speaker 2: again when there's no maggant and it's just me, all right.

1143
00:58:36,760 --> 00:58:39,240
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for being here with us or with

1144
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 2: me this week, and as always, remember to follow your gut,

1145
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:49,040
Speaker 2: watch out for red flags, and never ever trust me. Bye.

1146
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,760
Speaker 2: Trust Me as produced by Kirsten Woodward, Gabby Rapp and

1147
00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:56,200
Speaker 2: Steve Delemator.

1148
00:58:55,760 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 1: With special thanks to Stacy Para.

1149
00:58:57,600 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 2: And her theme song was composed by Holly Ambercher.

1150
00:59:00,280 --> 00:59:03,160
Speaker 1: You can find us on Instagram at trust Me Podcast,

1151
00:59:03,320 --> 00:59:07,080
Speaker 1: Twitter at trust Me Cultpod, or on TikTok at trust

1152
00:59:07,120 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 1: Me Cult Podcast.

1153
00:59:08,600 --> 00:59:11,959
Speaker 2: I'm Ula Lola on Instagram and Ola Lola on Twitter.

1154
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:15,240
Speaker 1: And I am Megan Elizabeth eleven on Instagram and Babraham

1155
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 1: Hicks on Twitter.

1156
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:18,920
Speaker 2: Remember to rate and review and spread the word.