1 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,639 Speaker 1: Hey, Daniel, are we made out of particles or waves? 2 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 2: M That depends on what depends on what you mean 3 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 2: by particle and what you mean by wave. 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:21,279 Speaker 1: That's a very particular answer. 5 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 2: Well, I'm not just gonna wave my hands when I 6 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:24,880 Speaker 2: answer a question. 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: I would have thought that a particle physicists would have 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: leaned into the particle answer. 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 2: Well, I do have kind of a particle brainwave about it. 10 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: I think you're just trying to wave me off. 11 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 2: In particular. 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:53,480 Speaker 1: Hi, I'm poorhe Mae, cartoonist and the author of Oliver's 13 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: Great Big Universe. 14 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,760 Speaker 2: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor 15 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,120 Speaker 2: at UC Irvine, and i'd like to think i'm I'm 16 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 2: also a wavular physicist. 17 00:01:02,600 --> 00:01:05,559 Speaker 1: A wavuler. I don't think I've ever heard that word. 18 00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: I just made it up. Man, aren't physicists great at 19 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:09,240 Speaker 2: naming things? 20 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: Would it be more perpetsey you're a wavy physicist or 21 00:01:12,800 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: a waiver physicist? 22 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 2: I got wavy hair, and I do sometimes waver about 23 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:18,759 Speaker 2: my decisions. 24 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: There you go, waves dominate your life and you didn't. 25 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 3: Even know it. 26 00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 2: I'm waving everybody right now. 27 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, she'd waveright it? But anyways, Welcome to our podcast 28 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 1: Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio. 29 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 2: In which we try to dig deep into the nature 30 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 2: of the universe around us. How is it all put together? 31 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: How does it all work when you zoom in on 32 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 2: the tiniest little bits? What are they actually like? Are 33 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 2: they little bits of sand? Are they weird? Quantum ripples? 34 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 2: Are they both? Are they neither? Are they something else 35 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 2: completely different? Our goal in this podcast is to tackle 36 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: these questions directly and do our best to explain everything 37 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: we do and don't understand to you. 38 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 1: That's right. It's an amazing universe full of mysteries out 39 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,080 Speaker 1: there for us to look out and ponder about and 40 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 1: ask questions about. But sometimes the biggest mysteries are within us, 41 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,000 Speaker 1: inside of us, and they're about our very nature of 42 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: how we exist. 43 00:02:15,200 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 2: That's right, because we are part of the universe. When 44 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 2: we ask what is the universe made out of? How 45 00:02:20,880 --> 00:02:23,960 Speaker 2: does that actually work? We also want to understand ourselves. 46 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 2: One of the deepest goals in physics, but something we 47 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:29,760 Speaker 2: don't often say directly is that we want to understand 48 00:02:29,760 --> 00:02:33,359 Speaker 2: how everything works so well that we can understand ourselves. 49 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: That we could build up from our picture of the 50 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 2: microscopic world, the tiny little quantum particles, all the way 51 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:43,400 Speaker 2: up to our microscopic world, which means us and ice 52 00:02:43,440 --> 00:02:47,320 Speaker 2: cream and blueberries. Somehow, we hope that revealing the nature 53 00:02:47,360 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: of the universe on the tiny level will give us 54 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,680 Speaker 2: a crack and understanding why we're here and what to 55 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 2: do with ourselves. 56 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's a huge challenge to connect what's happening 57 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,240 Speaker 1: at the microscopic level to what's happening at the cosmic 58 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: and universe level. That is the goal of science to 59 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: make those connections and give us a sense of the 60 00:03:05,200 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: big picture of how it's all put together. 61 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: That's right, because we assume that there is a way 62 00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 2: it's all put together, that the universe is following rules, 63 00:03:13,560 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 2: that it has a nature that we could know, that 64 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:20,000 Speaker 2: we could understand, that we could maybe even describe with 65 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 2: our primitive human mathematics and predict and manipulate it in 66 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:27,520 Speaker 2: a way that might improve our lives. That at least 67 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:30,600 Speaker 2: is the goal of trying to understand the universe. Whether 68 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 2: or not we've made any progress is another question. 69 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: It seems like we've done pretty well, Like we discovered 70 00:03:36,320 --> 00:03:38,760 Speaker 1: our bodies then we discovered we're made out of cells, 71 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: and then we discovered those cells are made out of molecules, 72 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:43,360 Speaker 1: and those molecules made out of atoms, and then those 73 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:46,280 Speaker 1: atoms made out of particles. I feel like we've drilled 74 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,880 Speaker 1: down pretty deep into the makeup of the universe. 75 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:52,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's pretty impressive how far we've gone and how 76 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 2: we've been able to make some connections between how things 77 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 2: happen on a small scale and what we experience on 78 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,280 Speaker 2: a larger scale. Even just like the idea of germs 79 00:04:01,280 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: and disease, that tiny little bugs swimming around in the 80 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,320 Speaker 2: air and in our bodies can have a big effect 81 00:04:07,360 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 2: on our experience. The whole germ theory is sort of 82 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 2: a triumph of the idea that the microscopic world controls 83 00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:15,240 Speaker 2: the macroscopic world. 84 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: Wait, do you mean like a virus can have an 85 00:04:16,880 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: impact in our lives? News flash, isn't it all made 86 00:04:22,680 --> 00:04:23,520 Speaker 1: up by scientists? 87 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:25,240 Speaker 2: M I'm not even going to touch that. 88 00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:28,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to touch those viruses. 89 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 2: I'm not going to take a deep breath of that. 90 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 2: But at the forefront of human knowledge, what you described 91 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: as the latest bit of our understanding, you know, the 92 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,360 Speaker 2: particles that make us all up. What are those really? 93 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:42,920 Speaker 2: We had a whole podcast episode where we dug into 94 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 2: the question like what is a particle? Because a particle, 95 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,839 Speaker 2: in some sense is an extrapolation from things we find 96 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:54,360 Speaker 2: intuitive in our world, little bits of stuff. The particulates 97 00:04:54,440 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 2: we think make up our world just sort of like 98 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,480 Speaker 2: extended down to the very very tiny. We find when 99 00:05:00,480 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: we get down there is that particles obey very different rules. 100 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:05,600 Speaker 2: And it's almost a bit of a scam to use 101 00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: a word that relies on our classical intuition to describe 102 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: something that happens at the quantum world. 103 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: WHOA, WHOA are you saying that physics it's sort of 104 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: like a scam. 105 00:05:14,279 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 2: I'm saying physics has been kind of lazy in using 106 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 2: its words, and that we're often borrowing words that have 107 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 2: like intuitive baggage that's misleading. And when we talk about 108 00:05:25,600 --> 00:05:28,119 Speaker 2: particles and we talk about waves, we're often not really 109 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:30,520 Speaker 2: clear about what we actually mean when we're talking about 110 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:33,080 Speaker 2: these things, and I think we're often misleading people. 111 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:35,599 Speaker 1: It seems like we drilled down right beyond the atom 112 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: into the particles that we're made out of, but then 113 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: we sort of hit a wall in terms of our understanding, 114 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:42,839 Speaker 1: because once you get to these tiny quantum particles, you 115 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,040 Speaker 1: get to ask, like, what are these particles, what are 116 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: they made out of? What's their origin? 117 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we have a mathematical description that works really, 118 00:05:51,400 --> 00:05:55,520 Speaker 2: really well. Quantum field theory can describe these interactions and 119 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:57,920 Speaker 2: make predictions and tell us what's going to happen in 120 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 2: our experiments. With challenging is developing an intuitive picture in 121 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,359 Speaker 2: your mind for what's going on the microscopic scale, And 122 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: that's always going to be challenging because what's happening down 123 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:13,080 Speaker 2: there has no analog in our experience. There are some similarities, like, yeah, 124 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 2: electron is a little bit like a little bit of stuff, 125 00:06:16,240 --> 00:06:18,960 Speaker 2: and ripples in a quantum field are a little bit 126 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:21,240 Speaker 2: like what happens in your baptub when you splash your 127 00:06:21,240 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 2: hands around. But those are like stepping stones towards a 128 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 2: real understanding. They aren't the deepest, most intuitive understanding of 129 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 2: the world. 130 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, what's going on at those deep levels? And what 131 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 1: is matter and energy actually made out of? And so 132 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 1: to the on the podcast, we'll be tackling the question 133 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 1: is the universe made of waves? 134 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 2: Are you made of waves? Man? 135 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:52,680 Speaker 1: I am a little wavy. I guess right now, I 136 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,039 Speaker 1: think I'm in a lull. For sure. 137 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:57,119 Speaker 2: It feels like that question through you for a wave. 138 00:06:57,279 --> 00:06:59,719 Speaker 1: Yes, I wasn't able to serve my way to a 139 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 1: with answer. I wipe out, physics wipeout. 140 00:07:04,360 --> 00:07:07,840 Speaker 2: I think this question is interesting because we know fundamentally 141 00:07:08,040 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: that all the laws of quantum field theory are wave equations. 142 00:07:11,480 --> 00:07:13,640 Speaker 2: Like at the heart of it, everything is described in 143 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:16,840 Speaker 2: terms of waves. But we have this intuitive sense that 144 00:07:16,880 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: we're made of stuff, and we like to think of 145 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 2: ourselves as built of little bits of stuff, maybe lashed 146 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 2: together with forces. But it's hard to imagine ourselves as 147 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 2: like made of waves, that you and I are both 148 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,200 Speaker 2: just like waves in the universe. 149 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: Well, I feel like you know someone who listens casually 150 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: to physics. You know, you sort of grow up learning 151 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: about this idea of whether things are made out of 152 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 1: particles or waves, and you know that there was a 153 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,600 Speaker 1: big debate at the turn of the last century, and 154 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: then you sort of learn about the idea of the 155 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: wave particle duality, like things are both particles and waves. 156 00:07:52,880 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 2: I think the wave particle duality is well intentioned, but 157 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 2: very confusing and often misleading because it gives people the 158 00:08:00,840 --> 00:08:05,640 Speaker 2: idea that electrons or particles or photons or whatever switch 159 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,239 Speaker 2: between being waves and being particles, Like they are both, 160 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 2: but sometimes they're being a particle and sometimes they're being 161 00:08:11,680 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 2: a wave. I think that's very confusing and misleading. 162 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: Well, it's definitely confusing, but I guess you know, as 163 00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 1: a casual consumer, I've always just accepted that things are 164 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:24,240 Speaker 1: like two things at the same time, Like, isn't that 165 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 1: kind of the nature of quantum physics, Like things can 166 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: be two things at the same time, and if you 167 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:30,840 Speaker 1: look at it one way, it's a particle, and if 168 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: you look at another way to wave. Isn't that kind 169 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: of the basic thing that physicists have been teaching. 170 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 2: I like that you apply quantum superposition to like our 171 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 2: understanding of it, Like, well, I understand it this way, 172 00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 2: and I understand it that way in a quantum mechanical sense, 173 00:08:45,960 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 2: Like I have two ideas in my mind at the 174 00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:48,200 Speaker 2: same time. 175 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:50,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a bad point and a good point at 176 00:08:50,520 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: the same time. It's both deep and shallow at the 177 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,040 Speaker 1: same time. I am both smart and dumb when it 178 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: comes to quantum physics. 179 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:00,840 Speaker 2: I'm going to give you a good explanation and a 180 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: bad explanation at the same time. Hold them both in 181 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 2: your heads. No, I think what's confusing about that is 182 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:10,079 Speaker 2: that physicists say that, but they mean something specific when 183 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 2: they say the word particle, and it mean something specific 184 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 2: when they say the word wave, And I don't think 185 00:09:14,760 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 2: it's understood that way. 186 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:18,080 Speaker 1: What do you mean? What do they mean when they 187 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: say particle? What do they mean when they say waves? 188 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 2: When they say particle, really they just mean you've made 189 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,119 Speaker 2: a localized measurement of something, not that it's like converted 190 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 2: into a little bit of stuff, and it's not flying 191 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 2: along through space with a definitive path and location and 192 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 2: momentum and velocity and all the things you expect of 193 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:39,079 Speaker 2: a little bit of stuff. And when they say wave, 194 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:41,960 Speaker 2: what they really mean is it still has uncertainty that 195 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: you haven't collapsed it. You haven't asked the universe to 196 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,560 Speaker 2: tell you where it is. You haven't made a measurement it. Really, 197 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 2: it's all still just waves. Even this idea of a 198 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: particle being localized in one spot like a dot on 199 00:09:53,280 --> 00:09:56,280 Speaker 2: a screen, a measurement you make, that's also a property 200 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 2: that a quantum wave can have. It can collapse into 201 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: one local spot. 202 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: And so that's where this question comes from, Like is 203 00:10:02,880 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: the universe made out of waves? Are you sort of 204 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: making the argument that the word particle doesn't make sense 205 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: and it's really all just waves? 206 00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 2: In the end, the word particle makes sense if you 207 00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 2: give it a sensible definition, but everybody seems to have 208 00:10:14,520 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 2: a different idea of what particle means. So it's sort 209 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 2: of like an overloaded word that's more confusing than clarifying. 210 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,880 Speaker 1: Oh, I see, So people shouldn't like major in a 211 00:10:24,000 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 1: field if the name is confusing or misleading, is that 212 00:10:27,160 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: what you're saying, or devote their whole careers to it. 213 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 2: Hmm, I see, you're walking me down the garden path here. Absolutely, yeah, exactly. 214 00:10:34,800 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 2: You shouldn't have like a PhD and a professorship in 215 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 2: a word that you don't even understand what it means. 216 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: Yes, I totally agree. 217 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 2: That would be ridiculous. Anybody who did that should be 218 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 2: mocked and ridiculed. 219 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: Yes, mocked, ridiculed, and also given a podcast. 220 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely totals agree. 221 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, if this idea that everything is 222 00:10:57,520 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 1: a wave and the word particle doesn't make sense, doesn't 223 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: that sort of challenge your whole you know, feel the 224 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,280 Speaker 1: research and the whole particle collider idea. 225 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 2: I'm just going to switch over to being a waveular. 226 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,599 Speaker 1: Physicist, yeah, or a wavy physicists. 227 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:12,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're just going to collide waves from now on. 228 00:11:12,920 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 1: Man, Waveler, I don't even know how to process that word. 229 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: Why would you use that word? 230 00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,440 Speaker 2: It seems like the natural adjective version of waves. 231 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: But is it an adjective wave? 232 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 2: You aler? 233 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're a particle physicist, that doesn't mean that 234 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:30,640 Speaker 1: particles inadjective. 235 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 2: Particles describing physics there right, I guess I could be 236 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: a particular physicist. 237 00:11:34,320 --> 00:11:36,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I mean. That's why Waveler feels so weird. 238 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 2: Oh I see, all right. Well, in the conversation with 239 00:11:39,800 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 2: our guest today, he introduces another word wave it cull 240 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 2: because he also doesn't like the word particle. 241 00:11:45,440 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Why don't you have everyone come up 242 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:51,720 Speaker 1: with their own words? M and let's do science that way. 243 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:54,080 Speaker 2: That's basically what we've done so far, and it's not 244 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: working very well. 245 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: Everyone's like, I came up with a word, he's mine. No, 246 00:11:59,120 --> 00:11:59,720 Speaker 1: he's fine. 247 00:12:00,480 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 2: It's a basic principle of language that words are supposed 248 00:12:03,040 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 2: to have meetings, but we've been pretty bad about that 249 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: in physics. 250 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:10,000 Speaker 1: Well, I vote for wavy wavy physicists. 251 00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:12,079 Speaker 2: All right, I'm going to position my department for a 252 00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:12,960 Speaker 2: change of my title. 253 00:12:14,000 --> 00:12:16,080 Speaker 1: Well, today we're doing something a little bit interesting, which 254 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: is we're jumping right into an interview that you did 255 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: with a professor of physics who has a new book out. 256 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,400 Speaker 2: That's right, my colleague, professor Matt Strassler. He's a theoretical 257 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,320 Speaker 2: physicist and listeners to the podcast might already know him 258 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 2: because he's the author of a pretty well known blog 259 00:12:30,960 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 2: on particle physics called of Particular Significance. He should be 260 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,000 Speaker 2: called of wavular Significance. 261 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:40,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like he might be invalidating his own blog. 262 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 2: And he's an excellent writer for a general audience. And 263 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 2: he's got a new book out called Waves in an 264 00:12:47,160 --> 00:12:50,240 Speaker 2: Impossible See where he shares his vision for how the 265 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: world works on a microscopic scale. 266 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: Interesting he didn't name it Wavecles in an Impossible See. 267 00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 3: Cale. 268 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 2: I suggest everybody get a popsicle and going enjoy the book. 269 00:13:01,040 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. All right, Well, what are some 270 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: of the things you talk about with Professor Strassler. 271 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 2: We try our best to sketch out the argument in 272 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 2: his book Walk You through the principles that lead you 273 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 2: to a new vision for how the universe works, from 274 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 2: relativity to fields to waves, and how that's all crucial 275 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: for getting a real understanding of how the Higgs field works. 276 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: I see it's not just a being handwavy about things. Well, 277 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: I can wave to dive into it. So here's Daniel's 278 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: interview with Professor Matt Strassler, author of the book Waves 279 00:13:34,920 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: in an Impossible Scene. 280 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 2: Okay, so then it's my great pleasure to introduce the podcast. 281 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 2: Professor Matt Strassler a friend and colleague. Matt is a 282 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,559 Speaker 2: theoretical physicist and an author. He's been a researcher at 283 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 2: the Institute for Advanced Studies, a professor at the University 284 00:13:52,120 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 2: of Pennsylvania, University Washington, and at Rutgers University, as well 285 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 2: as a visiting professor at Harvard. He's very well known 286 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,200 Speaker 2: in the academic particle phys community for as many new 287 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:04,120 Speaker 2: ideas and influential concepts, such as the possibility of a 288 00:14:04,200 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: hidden valley, which isn't about a new kind of ranch dressing, 289 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 2: but the idea that significant parts of the universe could 290 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 2: be mostly shut off from us, hidden by our limited 291 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,480 Speaker 2: ability to interact with them. He's also widely respected for 292 00:14:15,520 --> 00:14:19,440 Speaker 2: his scientific writing. His blog of particular Significance is an 293 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 2: example of scientific writing for a general audience at its finest. 294 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: This isn't just more the same, where you'll find a 295 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:28,480 Speaker 2: few tired analogies recycled. Matt writes with a unique voice 296 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 2: that demonstrates his deep intuitive understanding of the physics, which 297 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 2: he can convey with a crisp but logical and accessible explanation. 298 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 2: Listeners to the podcast who write to me to ask 299 00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:40,920 Speaker 2: for more details on virtual particles or the Higgs field 300 00:14:41,040 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 2: will often get a response back that includes a link 301 00:14:43,280 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 2: to some of Matt's blog posts, because it's some of 302 00:14:45,120 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 2: the best explanations out there for these weird and tricky concepts. 303 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:50,600 Speaker 2: So I was very happy to hear, of course, that 304 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,360 Speaker 2: Matt decided to write a book, and having just finished 305 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: reading it, I can tell you that it lives up 306 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 2: to my hopes. It's clear and compelling journey through the 307 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 2: complex topics that gives you a new way of looking 308 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: at the world and thinking about the complicated ideas you 309 00:15:04,240 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 2: often hear about waves and particles and fields. And mass 310 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 2: and all that stuff. So Matt, welcome to the podcast. 311 00:15:10,960 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Daniel, it's a pleasure to be here. 312 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 2: So tell me first why you decided to write a book. 313 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 2: What question is this book an answer to? 314 00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 4: Well, I think, as with many books, the question that 315 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 4: the book ended up being in the answer to is 316 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 4: not the question I was originally trying to answer. Not 317 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 4: that the questions aren't connected. But as you and many 318 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,240 Speaker 4: of your readers and listeners will know, there was a 319 00:15:35,240 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 4: big event in particle physics back in twenty twelve, and 320 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 4: that was the discovery of the famous Higgs boson, which 321 00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 4: is a type of particle that the news media likes 322 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 4: to call the God particle, and most physicists think this 323 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 4: is a ridiculous thing. But so much for science journalism. 324 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,720 Speaker 4: We're stuck with that. And the thing which was one 325 00:15:54,760 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 4: of the tasks of science journalists and scientists at the 326 00:15:57,680 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 4: time of that discovery before or to explain why it 327 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,200 Speaker 4: was that physicists were looking for this thing, was to 328 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 4: explain why it's important to do that. Why are we 329 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,520 Speaker 4: spending a substantial amount of money and a lot of 330 00:16:10,560 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 4: people's time to go looking for this one type of 331 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,040 Speaker 4: particle who cares? 332 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 3: Right? 333 00:16:16,440 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 4: So obviously this was something that scientists thought a lot 334 00:16:20,040 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 4: about how to explain what is fundamentally a tricky concept. 335 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 4: And there were some explanations that were really not so great, 336 00:16:29,440 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 4: but there were. 337 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 3: A few that were not bad, and one of them that. 338 00:16:34,680 --> 00:16:36,360 Speaker 4: Took on a life of its own and sort of, 339 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 4: you know, people started to take it kind of seriously 340 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 4: at the level that it started appearing often in science 341 00:16:41,680 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 4: journalism and even started appearing in long form books about 342 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:48,520 Speaker 4: the Higgs particle correctly explained that the Higgs particle isn't 343 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 4: really the big deal here. The Higgs particle was a 344 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,640 Speaker 4: means to an end. We were trying to understand something 345 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,400 Speaker 4: much deeper, which is called the Higgs field. The Higgs 346 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 4: field is something that present throughout the universe. It has 347 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:05,159 Speaker 4: an enormous impact on our lives, a secret impact, but 348 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,760 Speaker 4: nonetheless something we can't live without. 349 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 3: And so the better. 350 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,440 Speaker 4: Explanations said, Okay, don't worry about the Higgs particle, that's 351 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:15,399 Speaker 4: just a means to an end. We really want to 352 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 4: understand the Higgs field. Then the next question was, all right, well, 353 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 4: if the Higgs field is important, why is that? And 354 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 4: the answer is that it has something to do with 355 00:17:25,280 --> 00:17:29,520 Speaker 4: how certain elementary particles get mass, and mass turns out 356 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 4: to be essential in our universe for us, because if 357 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,520 Speaker 4: electrons didn't have mass, there would be no atoms. I 358 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,800 Speaker 4: don't need to explain beyond that point how important the 359 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 4: Higgs field is. 360 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,080 Speaker 2: I like Adams, atoms are good. Yeah, I'm planning to 361 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 2: have atoms for dinner tonight. For example. 362 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:48,440 Speaker 4: You may have them for the rest of your life, 363 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 4: I certainly hope so, so, yes, we can't really do 364 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,040 Speaker 4: without them. But then came the next question, which was, 365 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 4: all right, if the Higgs field gives mass to things, 366 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:00,400 Speaker 4: how does. 367 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: It do it? 368 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:06,080 Speaker 4: And that's where things went a little off the rails again, 369 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 4: not because anybody was trying to, you know, pull the 370 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 4: rug over people's eyes or somehow try to mislead, but 371 00:18:15,200 --> 00:18:18,120 Speaker 4: to actually explain it takes some cleverness and it takes 372 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 4: a little while, and so if you're asked to give 373 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 4: a sound bite, you can't quite do it. So the 374 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 4: SoundBite that people came up with was that the way 375 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,119 Speaker 4: it works is kind of like this. The Higgs field 376 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,399 Speaker 4: is like a substance that fills the universe like a soup, 377 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 4: or like snow or like molasses. 378 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 2: I've heard the molasses one many times. 379 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:42,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, the molasses is a great one. 380 00:18:42,080 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 4: Right. You kind of imagine yourself swimming through molasses and 381 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,919 Speaker 4: somehow breathing through it, and it slows things down, just 382 00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 4: as molasses would do, or soup. 383 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 3: What do you try to get through it? It slows 384 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 3: you down. 385 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 4: And because it slows things down, that's how it gives 386 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:56,240 Speaker 4: things mass. 387 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:59,520 Speaker 2: And to be clear, this is the common popular science 388 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: explanation that we're not happy. 389 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 4: This is unacceptable, and the reason that's unacceptable is that 390 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:11,800 Speaker 4: it not only mis explains how the Higgs field works, 391 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 4: but it does so in a way that contradicts probably 392 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,400 Speaker 4: the single most important principle of physics that you have 393 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 4: to understand to be able to understand pretty much anything 394 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 4: about how the universe works, and that is the principle 395 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:32,440 Speaker 4: of relativity. That's the principle that explains why the Earth 396 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:36,639 Speaker 4: can go round the Sun for billions of years without 397 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 4: slowing down and crashing into the Sun. That's the principle 398 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 4: that explains why light can move across the universe and 399 00:19:44,680 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 4: atoms can move through the universe all you know, over 400 00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:52,280 Speaker 4: enormous distances, and if you abandon the principle of relativity 401 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,919 Speaker 4: because you want to try to explain how the Higgs 402 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:59,439 Speaker 4: field works. You're giving up something even more important to 403 00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 4: explain something and not even really explain it. 404 00:20:02,480 --> 00:20:04,080 Speaker 3: So that just doesn't make said. 405 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 2: I hear that question from our listeners all the time 406 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,880 Speaker 2: because they hear this explanation and then they're like, wait 407 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: a second, having mass doesn't mean you slow down, Like 408 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 2: you can be really massive and fly through the universe 409 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:17,200 Speaker 2: without slowing down. Exactly, how is the Higgs slowing things down? 410 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 2: And they're right, and that's really any sense, And then 411 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: I link them to your blog. But this was the 412 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,440 Speaker 2: initial motivation you're saying for like, why you wanted to 413 00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: write this book. You felt like it was a missing 414 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:28,840 Speaker 2: part of the story here. Is that what the book 415 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:29,680 Speaker 2: ended up being about. 416 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 4: Also, well, in a way, yes, in that I think 417 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 4: it does provide for the first time a complete and 418 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 4: coherent and correct explanation as to what the Higgs field 419 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,000 Speaker 4: is actually doing. 420 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,000 Speaker 3: And in particular, not only. 421 00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,720 Speaker 4: Does it not have anything to do with slowing things down, 422 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 4: it doesn't have to do with motion at all, and 423 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,200 Speaker 4: it gives mass to electrons via an indirect route, which 424 00:20:54,359 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 4: in order to understand one has to first understand what 425 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 4: electrons actually are, and that, in the end, in a way, 426 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 4: is more what the book was about, essentially by necessity, 427 00:21:06,720 --> 00:21:09,120 Speaker 4: because in order to explain what the Higgs field does, 428 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:11,639 Speaker 4: I have to really explain how the universe works in 429 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 4: its most basic sense, and that requires understanding relativity, not 430 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 4: in detail, not with the math, but the basic conceptual framework. 431 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 4: And it also requires understanding a little bit about the 432 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 4: basic framework of quantum physics. 433 00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:30,240 Speaker 2: All Right, I have a bunch more questions for Matt 434 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:33,400 Speaker 2: about how the universe works and how we can really 435 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 2: understand the Higgs field correctly. But first let's take a 436 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:51,400 Speaker 2: quick break. Okay, we're back and we're talking to Professor 437 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,919 Speaker 2: Matt Strassler, author of the new book Waives in an 438 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 2: impossible see, who wants us to really understand how the 439 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:01,600 Speaker 2: universe is all made of ways and how that's crucial 440 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 2: to understanding how particle physics and the Higgs boson works. 441 00:22:06,000 --> 00:22:07,680 Speaker 2: And I will say that I was surprised when I 442 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:09,480 Speaker 2: started reading the book because I expected it to be 443 00:22:09,600 --> 00:22:11,919 Speaker 2: about how the universe is all made of waves or 444 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,280 Speaker 2: how the Higgs field actually works. And then you start 445 00:22:14,320 --> 00:22:17,359 Speaker 2: off with Galleo in relativity, and I'm like, wow, we 446 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,400 Speaker 2: are going back to the beginning. Matt is rebuilding all 447 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,880 Speaker 2: of physics for us. But by the end I could 448 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 2: tell why you had done it, because you relied on 449 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,679 Speaker 2: crucial details in that understanding to give a cogent explanation 450 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 2: for how this all works. So kudos to you. 451 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:33,560 Speaker 3: Thank you, Daniel. 452 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 4: But as you say, the key to writing the book 453 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:39,880 Speaker 4: in a way was to I mean, obviously, the universe 454 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,800 Speaker 4: is enormous in many different senses of the word, but 455 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,000 Speaker 4: you could write ten books explaining it. The key in 456 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 4: a sense was to pick out those things which were 457 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 4: most critical and explain them really well, and to try 458 00:22:52,160 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 4: not to explain too many things, but to really go 459 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,119 Speaker 4: to the heart of the matter, in hopes that a 460 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:02,439 Speaker 4: reader would come away not onunderstanding everything, but understanding a 461 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 4: few things really well, so that at the end what 462 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 4: the Higgs field is doing and how it gives mass 463 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:11,879 Speaker 4: to things would make sense. And I try to do 464 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 4: it without watering things down. You know, I'm not using 465 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 4: math in it, but I am trying to make sure 466 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 4: the concepts are a complete story. 467 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 2: Absolutely, And for those of you who want to understand 468 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,440 Speaker 2: the higgs Field in a deep, conceptual and intuitive way. 469 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 2: Really encourage you to get the book and to read 470 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 2: it carefully and to think about it, and to write 471 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,119 Speaker 2: us with questions if something in there doesn't job with 472 00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:37,480 Speaker 2: your understanding, because that's a learning moment. On today's podcast, 473 00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 2: I hope that we can get a sketch of these ideas. 474 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,120 Speaker 2: Of course, we can't do justice to the whole book 475 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,560 Speaker 2: and all of its careful explanations, but maybe we could 476 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: do an abbreviated version to give people an idea of 477 00:23:46,359 --> 00:23:48,480 Speaker 2: this important way of thinking about the universe that makes 478 00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 2: the Higgs field make actual sense rather than molasses sense. 479 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:55,480 Speaker 2: So let's start at the beginning. You started with relativity 480 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:58,199 Speaker 2: for a reason, because we need to understand relativity to 481 00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: understand what it is the higgs field is doing and 482 00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: is not doing. What is the principle of relativity that 483 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:04,040 Speaker 2: people really need to. 484 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:06,240 Speaker 3: Understand well in a way. 485 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 4: You know, the word relativity comes with Like most words 486 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,680 Speaker 4: that we physicists use when we try to explain what 487 00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 4: we do to the wider public, it comes with baggage. 488 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 4: And the cultural baggage of the word relativity couldn't be heavier, right, 489 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 4: I mean, we're talking Einstein. But what most people don't 490 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 4: realize is that the principle of relativity goes back to 491 00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 4: Galileo and the year sixteen thirty two. And this is 492 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,720 Speaker 4: when Galileo wrote down for a reading public that you 493 00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 4: cannot tell just by looking around you, or by watching 494 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:48,800 Speaker 4: other objects around you, or by doing simple experiments, how 495 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:52,320 Speaker 4: fast you're moving. And this is hard enough for us 496 00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 4: to think about. I mean, you know, if you're in 497 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 4: a car, if you're moving thirty miles an hour, of 498 00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 4: the car bumps around a little bit, Whereas if the 499 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 4: car isn't moving at all, well you don't feel any bumps. 500 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:04,480 Speaker 4: So I mean, we're used to the idea that if 501 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:07,400 Speaker 4: you're traveling faster, the bumps are more and you can 502 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 4: tell how fast you're moving. But we forget that at 503 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 4: this very moment, where I am seated in my chair, 504 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 4: and many of your readers are seated in their chairs 505 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 4: or doing something that means that they're not moving relative 506 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 4: to their room. They are nevertheless going around the axis 507 00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:28,760 Speaker 4: of the Earth as it spins. They are going round 508 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 4: the Sun once a year, at twenty miles a second. 509 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,479 Speaker 4: The Sun and Earth and the whole solar system are 510 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 4: going around the center of the galaxy at one hundred 511 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 4: and fifty miles per second, and we don't feel it. 512 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 4: And this was Galileo's realization based on some experiments that 513 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:52,159 Speaker 4: he did, but it was central in the history of 514 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:56,680 Speaker 4: human thought because up until that point there were many 515 00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,919 Speaker 4: brilliant thinkers, including Tycho Brahe, who was the person who 516 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 4: collected the data that Kepler then used to figure out 517 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 4: how the solar system works. And bri was after Copernicus 518 00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,360 Speaker 4: by fifty years. So Copernicus said, you know, the Earth 519 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,760 Speaker 4: goes round the Sun, but people didn't necessarily believe him because, 520 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 4: as Brahe himself said around sixteen hundred, look, I mean 521 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 4: if the Earth were moving, we'd feel it. And he 522 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 4: was wrong, not because he was dumb, but because this 523 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 4: principle of relativity is so weird and so counterintuitive that 524 00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:36,280 Speaker 4: whatever space is, whatever the empty space that we call 525 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,680 Speaker 4: the vacuum or just deep space is, we can move through. 526 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 3: It as though it's nothing. 527 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,560 Speaker 4: And then you might say, well, okay, maybe it is nothing. 528 00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:45,440 Speaker 3: What's the big deal? 529 00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 4: And that's a perfectly good answer until Einstein comes along 530 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:55,520 Speaker 4: and says, no, it can't really be just nothing, because 531 00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,919 Speaker 4: it can expand I mean when we say the universe 532 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 4: is expanding, we don't mean that there's stuff flying out 533 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 4: into empty space. We mean empty space is growing. And 534 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 4: when we say gravity is a manifestation of the shape 535 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,200 Speaker 4: of empty space, we're saying that empty space is something 536 00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 4: that can bend. And the big Nobel Prize of twenty seventeen, 537 00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 4: the big discovery of twenty fifteen was the observation of 538 00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 4: gravitational waves. Gravitational waves are ripples in space, So you 539 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,560 Speaker 4: can't really explain away the idea that, okay, the reason 540 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 4: we move through space without feeling anything is that space 541 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 4: is nothing, because then you have to explain how can 542 00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 4: nothing ripple and stretch and do all these crazy things. 543 00:27:47,440 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 4: So now you have a puzzle. How can it be 544 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 4: that Galilee is right that you can't tell how fast 545 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 4: you're moving even though you're moving through a substance or 546 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 4: something that acts like a substance. I mean, maybe it's 547 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:06,280 Speaker 4: not a substance. We haven't ever you know, bottled it 548 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 4: and sold it in stores. But it's very strange that 549 00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 4: this should be true. So this was a place to 550 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 4: start because it forces us to confront a sort of 551 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 4: fundamental confusion that we seem not to be able to 552 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 4: detect whether we're moving through this substance, but it does 553 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 4: seem to be a substance. And this has been confusing 554 00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:32,840 Speaker 4: since the time of Einstein. I don't know whether I 555 00:28:32,840 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 4: should say he was confused about it. That I think 556 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,080 Speaker 4: would be unfair, but he understood this was a fundamental 557 00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 4: puzzle or conceptual. Maybe puzzle is even the wrong term 558 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 4: because it's not clear it needs a solution, but it's 559 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:52,360 Speaker 4: a conceptually strange thing about the space that makes. 560 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 3: Up the universe. 561 00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 2: And just to make it like explicit, the thing that's 562 00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: confusing is, if you're moving through space, why can't you 563 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 2: measure your speed relative to space? If space is a thing, right, 564 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 2: if it has properties, it can ripple, it can expand, 565 00:29:06,280 --> 00:29:08,719 Speaker 2: and you can put numbers in it, why can't you 566 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:11,479 Speaker 2: measure your velocity relative to space, which would give you, 567 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 2: like a way to absolutely measure your velocity around the Sun, 568 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 2: or around the galaxy, or inside a ship or inside 569 00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 2: a car. That's the central puzzle here. 570 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 4: In a way, there's two interesting puzzles, and they're related, 571 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,960 Speaker 4: and yet the answer to the two puzzles is contradictory 572 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:30,479 Speaker 4: or seemingly contradictory. The first puzzle is why can we 573 00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 4: move through space without slowing down? If it's a substance, 574 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:36,640 Speaker 4: I mean, we can't move through air without slowing down. 575 00:29:36,720 --> 00:29:39,959 Speaker 4: If that's why airplanes need engines, and you can't move 576 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,120 Speaker 4: through water without slowing down, that's why submarine isn't itine? 577 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 4: And one potential answer to that has to do with 578 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 4: the idea that we are made from waves, that the objects, 579 00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 4: namely the electrons and quarks and other fundamental particles, really 580 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,000 Speaker 4: should be understood as waves. And one way to see 581 00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 4: that is that if you ask yourself whether you and 582 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 4: I could move through solid rock, Well, that's a ridiculous idea, right, 583 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 4: killed instantly if we tried to do that. And yet 584 00:30:11,080 --> 00:30:14,520 Speaker 4: seismic waves from earthquakes they just go right through the earth. 585 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 4: In fact, scientists use them to probe the inside of 586 00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 4: the earth. The waves go right through Why because they're 587 00:30:21,360 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 4: part of the rock. They're the rock doing something right. 588 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,240 Speaker 4: Sound waves it's the same thing. Why is it that 589 00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 4: an airplane needs engines and sound waves don't need engines. 590 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:33,960 Speaker 4: Soundwaves can travel thousands of miles and they don't slow down. 591 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:35,040 Speaker 3: Why not? 592 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 4: Well, they're the air in action. So the idea that 593 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 4: we might be made from things that are really sort 594 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,280 Speaker 4: of the universe in action waves in some sense of 595 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 4: the universe, arises very naturally from these observations. Maybe the 596 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,480 Speaker 4: reason we don't feel any friction, any drag when we 597 00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 4: move through the universe is that we're kind of made 598 00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 4: of it in some gunal sense. 599 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 2: You're saying we are wiggles in the universe, the way 600 00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 2: seismic waves are wiggles in rock. 601 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,239 Speaker 4: I will qualify that by saying there's a little more 602 00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:12,120 Speaker 4: complexity to it, but that's the basic idea. Now, the 603 00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 4: simplest ripples in empty space are precisely gravitational waves, and 604 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,840 Speaker 4: we're not made from those. But it is possible for 605 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 4: space to have sort of unseen properties, unknown properties which 606 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 4: could have waves in them, and we might be made 607 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,880 Speaker 4: from those. That's a way of possibly interpreting what we're 608 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:32,719 Speaker 4: made of. And for example, in string theory, although this 609 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:35,479 Speaker 4: is not limited to string theory, that is a common 610 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 4: way of understanding space. 611 00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:38,560 Speaker 3: It's more complicated. 612 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,239 Speaker 4: Specifically, it has extra dimensions and weird shapes, and so 613 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 4: there are properties of space that are not obvious to us, 614 00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 4: at least through our senses and waves that have to 615 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,640 Speaker 4: do with those properties might be the things that we 616 00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 4: are made from. 617 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 3: That's speculation. 618 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:56,400 Speaker 4: But the idea that we are made of waves that 619 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 4: are somehow made of things that are integrated into the universe, 620 00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,800 Speaker 4: that follows from the math that we use today in 621 00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 4: a sense that's less speculative. It's a way of interpreting 622 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,360 Speaker 4: the math that we already have. And so that's one 623 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,840 Speaker 4: puzzle and one possible solution that oh, okay, the unuse. 624 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 3: Really is a substance. 625 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:19,520 Speaker 4: It's got these properties, there are waves in those properties, 626 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 4: and we're made from those waves. Okay, great, We can 627 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 4: still worry about the fact that it's not so easy 628 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 4: to build objects out of waves that you and I 629 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 4: are familiar with. You've never seen a cathedral built from 630 00:32:33,320 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 4: sound waves, and you've never seen an elephant made out 631 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,680 Speaker 4: of seismic waves. There is this question how are you 632 00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 4: going to make things out of waves? But we'll come 633 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,120 Speaker 4: back to that because that's the question of quantum physics 634 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,800 Speaker 4: and how electrons can be waves in. 635 00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:52,400 Speaker 3: The first place. But there's a second puzzle that has 636 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 3: to do with space. So again the puzzles that had 637 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:55,480 Speaker 3: to do with space. 638 00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:57,800 Speaker 4: The first one was how can we move through it 639 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 4: if it's a substance without feeling any drag, without slowing down. 640 00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 4: And one solution is, we're made of waves. 641 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 2: Of this substance. 642 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 4: Okay, great, But then you ask yourself, fine, it's a substance, 643 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 4: let's go feel it, let's make a bottle of it, 644 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 4: let's track. 645 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: It down, Let's measure our velocity relative to it exactly. 646 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 4: And there are many ways that you can think of 647 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 4: doing that. So for us moving through air, that's not difficult. 648 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,080 Speaker 4: You use a wind meter that tells you how fast 649 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 4: the air is moving relative to you, or vice versa. 650 00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 4: If you want to know how fast you're moving through 651 00:33:31,440 --> 00:33:33,800 Speaker 4: the water on a boat, just put your hand in 652 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 4: the water and you'll feel, you know, the water will 653 00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:38,520 Speaker 4: pull your hand in some direction, and which direction it 654 00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:40,280 Speaker 4: pulls your hand in and how hard will depend on 655 00:33:40,280 --> 00:33:43,480 Speaker 4: how fast you're moving through the water. That's not quite 656 00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 4: a fair comparison, though, if I've just told you that 657 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 4: we're made of waves of that stuff, right, So then 658 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 4: you want to ask yourself, well, supposing you were a 659 00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 4: creature made out of ocean waves, how would ocean waves 660 00:33:55,720 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 4: know how fast they're moving through the water, Which is 661 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 4: a weirder question, and we're not used to asking that. 662 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:03,560 Speaker 3: But you can ask it. 663 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 4: And one way that ocean waves can tell is they 664 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 4: can look at other ocean waves as they come by, 665 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 4: at least in principle, right, if you're made out of 666 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:12,719 Speaker 4: ocean waves and here comes your friend made out of 667 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 4: ocean waves, they're coming in a different direction, how fast 668 00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 4: are they moving? And you can tell from looking at 669 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 4: how they behave how quickly you yourself are moving through 670 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:26,240 Speaker 4: the water. And one way to say this is hidden 671 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 4: in the notion of the speed of sound. So in air, 672 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:32,919 Speaker 4: when we measure the speed of sound and we say 673 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 4: it's eleven hundred feet per second, well, it's a speed. 674 00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:41,160 Speaker 4: What is that speed relative too? And the answer is 675 00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 4: it's relative to the air. The speed of sound is 676 00:34:44,560 --> 00:34:46,680 Speaker 4: eleven hundred feet per second relative to the air. And 677 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,720 Speaker 4: so if the air we're blowing by you at some velocity, 678 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,680 Speaker 4: if there's some strong wind, well then the sound waves 679 00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:55,880 Speaker 4: going in the direction of the wind will pass you faster. 680 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 4: Then the sound waves go in the opposite direction because 681 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,080 Speaker 4: they're being pulled along by the air as it flows 682 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 4: by you. And if you're a supersonic jet, you're out 683 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 4: running your own sound. The sound is moving eleven hundred 684 00:35:07,800 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 4: fet per scond relative to the error, and you're moving faster. 685 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,040 Speaker 4: But with light, when we talk about the speed of light, 686 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,480 Speaker 4: what is that relative to And in the analogy that 687 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 4: we've been talking about, you might imagine that, well, it 688 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 4: should be whatever it is one hundred and eighty six 689 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 4: thousand miles per second relative to space or whatever it 690 00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 4: is that fills space that makes up the thing in 691 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 4: which light is a wave. But that's not how it works. Somehow, 692 00:35:35,800 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 4: the way the universe works is that the speed of 693 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 4: light is measured relative to an observer who is trying 694 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:49,160 Speaker 4: to measure it, and not relative to space. And the 695 00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 4: importance of that is that it allows for something bizarre, 696 00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 4: which is that no matter how fast you're moving, no 697 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:00,720 Speaker 4: matter how fast some object that's emitting light is moving, 698 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 4: the speed of light when it passes you is always 699 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:09,280 Speaker 4: the same from all directions and from any source. That's 700 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 4: not true for sound, it's not true for ocean waves. 701 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:15,920 Speaker 4: And those facts are directly tied with the fact that 702 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,200 Speaker 4: you can tell whether you're moving what relative to the 703 00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:21,960 Speaker 4: substance of air or water. But the way it works 704 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 4: for light, despite all the analogies between waves of sound 705 00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 4: and waves of light, and of course our ability to 706 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 4: perceive them. 707 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 3: It just works differently. 708 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 2: All right, we're going to get even deeper into this, 709 00:36:33,840 --> 00:36:49,920 Speaker 2: but first we're going to take a quick break. We're 710 00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 2: back and I'm talking to Professor Matt Strassler, author of 711 00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 2: Waves and an Impossible Sea. Is that a consequence of 712 00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,840 Speaker 2: the nature of space you always measure the speed of 713 00:37:00,080 --> 00:37:02,480 Speaker 2: light to be the same thing, because you can't measure 714 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,279 Speaker 2: your speed relative to space. Or is it go the 715 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,239 Speaker 2: other direction that because you have to measure the speed 716 00:37:07,239 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 2: of light the same for all observers, therefore you cannot 717 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 2: measure your velocity relative to space. 718 00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:14,240 Speaker 4: It's a great question because in a sense, the cause 719 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 4: of relation isn't clear. Yeah, we know these are facts, 720 00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 4: we know they are related, but we don't fundamentally know 721 00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 4: which thing should be considered sort of primary and which 722 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:30,640 Speaker 4: things should be considered a consequence. And so, just to 723 00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 4: bring everything full circle, what Einstein was doing when he 724 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 4: proposed that the speed of light was a constant from 725 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,960 Speaker 4: all observers point of view, which had not occurred to 726 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:50,920 Speaker 4: anyone prior to him, was deeply tied with this inconsistency 727 00:37:51,480 --> 00:37:56,799 Speaker 4: between what relativity ala Galileo says that you should not 728 00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,400 Speaker 4: be able to measure your speed and what light waves 729 00:38:00,400 --> 00:38:02,480 Speaker 4: tell you, which is well, light as a wave's just 730 00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,040 Speaker 4: like sound as a wave, So there should be some 731 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 4: substance relative to which light speed can be measured. You 732 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,960 Speaker 4: can't have it both waves, because if light does have 733 00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,600 Speaker 4: a speed relative to a substance, and you can measure 734 00:38:13,719 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 4: your speed relative to the light, then you can also 735 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,120 Speaker 4: measure your speed relative to the substance, and then Galileo's 736 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 4: relativity is no longer true. You can tell how fast 737 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:26,719 Speaker 4: you're moving through the universe. And what Einstein said was 738 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,640 Speaker 4: maybe Galileo's principle is still true, and there's something about 739 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 4: the way you're thinking about light waves that is fundamentally 740 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,600 Speaker 4: different from how it works for sound waves. 741 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,240 Speaker 2: So it's truly Galileo's theory of relativity that Einstein protected 742 00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:42,200 Speaker 2: correct or rescue. 743 00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,759 Speaker 4: That's right, that's exactly now. Einstein's theory of gravity is 744 00:38:45,800 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 4: a bigger deal. And not to say this was a 745 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 4: small deal. I mean, saving galileos relativity was a major achievement. 746 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,239 Speaker 4: But it's important to understand that fundamentally what Einstein was 747 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 4: doing was saving Galileo's principle at the expense of the 748 00:38:59,719 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 4: notion of space and time, which seemed obvious in order 749 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 4: to make it possible for light to do something that 750 00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,680 Speaker 4: seemed impossible. And it does leave us with this notion 751 00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:16,000 Speaker 4: of space as this substance like thing with respect to 752 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 4: which we cannot measure our motion. 753 00:39:19,520 --> 00:39:21,960 Speaker 2: And we don't really have a great explanation for why 754 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:22,400 Speaker 2: that is. 755 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 3: Right. 756 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,240 Speaker 2: We can see that as a consequence of the speed 757 00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 2: of light being constant for all observers, but we don't 758 00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:31,319 Speaker 2: have like a ground truth the fundamental reason for why 759 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,080 Speaker 2: a space has this property based on what it is. Right, 760 00:39:34,239 --> 00:39:36,759 Speaker 2: sort of going backwards, we're saying it just has this 761 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,000 Speaker 2: property because we know it can't do this thing. 762 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, it's an experimentally derived fact in the end, right, 763 00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,680 Speaker 4: it was Einstein's idea that maybe space and time works 764 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,799 Speaker 4: this way. But the reason we know it's true is 765 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 4: one hundred years of experiments and doing things like building 766 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:57,000 Speaker 4: giant particle accelerators, which would not work at all if 767 00:39:57,120 --> 00:40:01,560 Speaker 4: these facts weren't true in detail. So the fine tuning 768 00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:07,279 Speaker 4: of an engineered particle accelerator requires that Einstein's formulas be 769 00:40:07,360 --> 00:40:11,759 Speaker 4: correct to many decimal places, and so these are not 770 00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:16,040 Speaker 4: speculative ideas anymore. Even though when Einstein wrote the down 771 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 4: at that time it was a proposal, he didn't know 772 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,680 Speaker 4: it was true, but it turns out that it is. 773 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 2: But there's a difference between being well established and being understood. 774 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 2: Absolutely can say, well, we know this is correct and 775 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,520 Speaker 2: describes the universe, but gosh darn it, we don't understand 776 00:40:31,520 --> 00:40:33,760 Speaker 2: what it means about the universe right correct. 777 00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 4: There are many speculations about what it might tell us 778 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:40,160 Speaker 4: about space and time that would take us far afield 779 00:40:40,200 --> 00:40:43,040 Speaker 4: from the story of this book. In my book, I've 780 00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 4: tried to avoid speculations and stick to the things that 781 00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 4: we know, because I think it's really important for anyone 782 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,359 Speaker 4: who wants to read this speculative stuff. I mean, there's 783 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:52,799 Speaker 4: wonderful ideas out there, which most of which, of course 784 00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 4: will turn out to be wrong, but they're based on 785 00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,920 Speaker 4: these fundamentals, and so you really have to understand the 786 00:40:57,920 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 4: fundamentals to grasp what deep problems physicists are grappling with. 787 00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:06,799 Speaker 4: And what's wonderful and exciting and challenging about what I've 788 00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:10,960 Speaker 4: just told you about space is that you don't need 789 00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:15,920 Speaker 4: to be a mathematician or an expert in physics to 790 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:21,200 Speaker 4: understand the problem, to understand how deep a puzzle this is. 791 00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,000 Speaker 4: And that's part of why I thought a book like 792 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:28,560 Speaker 4: this could really work. And I think it's important that 793 00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:34,960 Speaker 4: as many people as possible appreciate just how spectacular these 794 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:39,000 Speaker 4: types of problems are. It shouldn't hurt your head to 795 00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 4: learn about the problem, and yet it should hurt your 796 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,680 Speaker 4: head when you try to understand the problem in just 797 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 4: the same way it hurts mind. 798 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:47,560 Speaker 3: It's not as though. 799 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,960 Speaker 4: These things are hard because it's difficult to understand what's strange. 800 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 4: They're hard because any human being, including the experts, find 801 00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,040 Speaker 4: this strange. 802 00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,920 Speaker 2: And so I want to share with listeners the picture 803 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:04,440 Speaker 2: that you paint in the second half of the book 804 00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:07,160 Speaker 2: how the universe works, so that we can better understand 805 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:09,759 Speaker 2: the Higgs field and the context of this discovery of 806 00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,879 Speaker 2: space and light and how things wiggle, and you were 807 00:42:12,920 --> 00:42:15,400 Speaker 2: mentioning it earlier, how everything is made out of waves. 808 00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:19,319 Speaker 2: This is all super wonderful and fascinating and making me 809 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 2: rethink how the universe around me works and how it's 810 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:27,080 Speaker 2: all made of tiny waves. But before we dig into 811 00:42:27,239 --> 00:42:30,879 Speaker 2: the rest of this and understand the Higgs boson. We're 812 00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 2: going to have to pause here and pick up this 813 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 2: discussion in the next episode, Part two of my conversation 814 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:39,759 Speaker 2: with Professor mattz Stressler, where we'll talk about how the 815 00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:42,399 Speaker 2: universe is actually all made of waves and why that's 816 00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:46,239 Speaker 2: vital to understanding what the Higgs field is and what 817 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:50,360 Speaker 2: it does how it gives us all mass. So hold 818 00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:52,799 Speaker 2: on to your thoughts about how the universe works and 819 00:42:52,880 --> 00:42:56,400 Speaker 2: check out Matt's book Waves in an Impossible See available 820 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,760 Speaker 2: everywhere right now, See you next time for the second 821 00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 2: part of this conversation. For more science and curiosity, come 822 00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 2: find us on social media where we answer questions and 823 00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:15,239 Speaker 2: post videos. We're on Twitter, Discorg, Insta, and now TikTok. 824 00:43:15,920 --> 00:43:18,720 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain 825 00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:22,799 Speaker 2: the Universe is a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts 826 00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,440 Speaker 2: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 827 00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:29,240 Speaker 2: you listen to your favorite shows.