1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:04,080 Speaker 1: Hello ablots listeners, we have something very special for you. 2 00:00:04,280 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Joe and I appeared on an episode of Bloomberg's latest podcast. 3 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,600 Speaker 1: It's called money Stuff, and it is hosted by two 4 00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: people that I think you will recognize from aud Blots, 5 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:20,599 Speaker 1: Matt Levine, the esteemed financial columnist and chronicler of capitalism, 6 00:00:20,680 --> 00:00:24,279 Speaker 1: as well as Katie Greifeld, who knows all things ETFs 7 00:00:24,360 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: and horses as well. And Joe and I were there 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: to talk about chicken. 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 2: That's right. 10 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:33,280 Speaker 3: So if you recall back in November, Tracy and I 11 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:36,199 Speaker 3: released a three part series called squawk Lots where we 12 00:00:36,240 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 3: explained how the US economy can be understood through the 13 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: lens of chicken, basically basically taking the entire industry from 14 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 3: a egg to sandwich, so to speak. And so we 15 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 3: were delighted to go on with Madd and Katie and 16 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 3: talk about our work. 17 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: Technically it was called beat Capitalism, but squawk Loots was 18 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: our code name. It's for long time, all right, A 19 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: long time, yes, it has okay, So we hope you 20 00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:05,160 Speaker 1: enjoy this special episode of money Stuff and definitely give 21 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: it a listen. Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News. 22 00:01:16,720 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 4: Hello and welcome to a very special crossover episode of 23 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 4: The Money Stuff slash Odd Lots Podcasts. I'm Matt Levien 24 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,040 Speaker 4: and I write The Moneystuff Colm for Bloomberg Opinion. 25 00:01:27,440 --> 00:01:29,840 Speaker 2: And I'm Katie Greefeld, a reporter for Bloomberg News and 26 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:31,320 Speaker 2: an anchor for Bloomberg Television. 27 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,199 Speaker 4: And we have two very special guests in the studio 28 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 4: with us today, Katie. 29 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: Their names are Joe Wisenthal and Tracy Alloway. Wow, this 30 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: is very exciting. 31 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:45,039 Speaker 1: I like the pause to build suspense, Kate. 32 00:01:45,160 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 2: I've been told to pause and then say names slowly 33 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: for gravitas, so trying to working it worked. 34 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 5: It worked, It worked, all right? 35 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 4: We establishing gravitas. 36 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:00,760 Speaker 5: From what it's worth. 37 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 3: Tracy and I like spent three years of Odd Lots 38 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:06,520 Speaker 3: workshopping ways to introduce guests. And I know we're early 39 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,720 Speaker 3: the second time you've had external guests. So don't feel any. 40 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:10,519 Speaker 2: My heart is calended. 41 00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 3: Don't feel any anxiety about the guest. Do you remember 42 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 3: how we used to. 43 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 4: Do it, Tracy? 44 00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:14,239 Speaker 5: Yeah. 45 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 1: We used to pretend that neither of us or one 46 00:02:16,720 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 1: of us didn't know what we were going to talk about, 47 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:20,760 Speaker 1: and it was like, guess what we're going to talk about, 48 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: but it didn't make any sense because, like we clearly 49 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: knew what we were going to talk about. 50 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:25,679 Speaker 5: So it took us a while. 51 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:27,839 Speaker 2: And how are we doing so far? Because I feel 52 00:02:27,840 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 2: like it's not going super well, it's going fine. 53 00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 4: What are we going to talk about? 54 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:34,080 Speaker 2: What someone should make a cluck? 55 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: You brought us here. 56 00:02:36,040 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: Let's talk about chickens. You guys obviously have a lot 57 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,480 Speaker 2: to say. You did a three part series on chickens recently, 58 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 2: which was pretty cool because I feel like this was 59 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:46,760 Speaker 2: something different for you guys. 60 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, every once in a while we like to shake 61 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: things up and do something slightly different. Last year, we 62 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: actually did a three part series on the rollout of 63 00:02:55,040 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 1: New York's legal marijuana ooh market called pot Lots. This 64 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,600 Speaker 1: one was a three part series about chicken, and the 65 00:03:02,639 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: code name for it was squaw Clots, but the actual 66 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: name was beat Capitalism, and the idea was you can 67 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:12,840 Speaker 1: actually explain a lot of really interesting themes in the 68 00:03:12,880 --> 00:03:15,960 Speaker 1: American economy through the medium of chicken. 69 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, you just think from like egg to chicken sandwich, 70 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 3: or egg to chicken tender, or egg to McNugget. 71 00:03:23,680 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 2: And me speak for yourself. 72 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 3: There are just so many interesting Like the sort of 73 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 3: premise is there are just so many really interesting things 74 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:31,480 Speaker 3: that can be. 75 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:33,959 Speaker 5: Discussed along that entire supply chain. 76 00:03:34,120 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 3: So whether it's avian flu and how to keep the 77 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 3: flock of the birds, whether it's concentration in the poultry market, 78 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:43,920 Speaker 3: whether it's the nature of the labor market, how the 79 00:03:43,960 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 3: big poultry companies contract with independent growers and so forth 80 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,320 Speaker 3: who raise the chickens themselves, which is interesting. Then there's 81 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 3: questions about pricing and so forth, and then commodity prices, 82 00:03:55,040 --> 00:03:58,000 Speaker 3: and then the chicken sandwich wars and the consumer experience 83 00:03:58,040 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 3: of why Papa is versus Panda express first Whoever, there's 84 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,240 Speaker 3: a million different things even within all these things where 85 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: it's like we can learn a little something about how 86 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 3: the economy works through that trajectory. 87 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 4: How did you decide on that? Was that like you're like, 88 00:04:11,840 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 4: we want to talk about chicken first, and then later 89 00:04:13,520 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 4: you realize there are a lot of rinses, or you're like, 90 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 4: we need to talk about anti trust is chick. 91 00:04:19,480 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: I actually I'm struggling to remember what the exact. 92 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,239 Speaker 4: That chickens in your backyard. 93 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I have a long term love of chickens 94 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: and my great ambition in life is to one day 95 00:04:31,160 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 1: have backyard chickens. And I'm inching closer. 96 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 4: Actually love of chickens a live chickens to hang out with, 97 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:43,040 Speaker 4: or dead chickens to eat, or totally different, both like 98 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 4: one then the other. 99 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: Well, I would raise chickens and I would have eggs, 100 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:50,240 Speaker 1: and that way I would be immune to egg inflation. 101 00:04:50,520 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: But I know some people who raise meat chickens, and 102 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: I don't think I would do that so hard. It's 103 00:04:55,800 --> 00:04:59,839 Speaker 1: depressing because meat chickens are very different to egg laying chickens. 104 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 1: They look different, they don't really do anything. They kind 105 00:05:02,560 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: of just like waddle around and flop over there. 106 00:05:04,960 --> 00:05:05,760 Speaker 5: One day you kill them. 107 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:07,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's sad. 108 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 5: The other thing too. 109 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 3: In additioned to Tracy's affinity for chickens, we've done a 110 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,040 Speaker 3: lot of chicken episodes in the past. 111 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:14,880 Speaker 5: So there's this. 112 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 3: Guy, Glenn Hickman that we talked to. We've talked to 113 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 3: him twice on the show. He has a big egg 114 00:05:19,440 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: operation in Arizona, and so we talked about when egg 115 00:05:22,800 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: prices were surging. We talked to him when Avian flew, 116 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:28,799 Speaker 3: which unfortunately, like is getting headlines again. 117 00:05:28,960 --> 00:05:29,719 Speaker 5: We talked to him. 118 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 3: We've talked to Samuel Ryans and analysts who thought that 119 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,920 Speaker 3: Wings stopped the country's biggest chicken chain and the biggest 120 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 3: single buyer. And there are certain lessons about pricing power 121 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 3: that we learned because you know, as wholesale Wings went up, 122 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 3: they raised their prices aggressively. When wholesale Wing prices went down, 123 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 3: they did not cut their prices. So we've done a 124 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:50,359 Speaker 3: lot of chicken related content in the past. It's like, oh, 125 00:05:50,360 --> 00:05:51,599 Speaker 3: why don't we like put some of this together. 126 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,400 Speaker 1: This was the surprising thing when we were putting together 127 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: you know, the list of people that we wanted to 128 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: speak to for this series, like eighty percent of them 129 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,200 Speaker 1: had actually spoken to before, so unknowingly we were already 130 00:06:03,240 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 1: a chicken podcast. 131 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:06,160 Speaker 2: Wow, it's like it found you guys. 132 00:06:06,279 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 4: Yes, when you were putting together that list, where was 133 00:06:09,120 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 4: Ray Dahali? 134 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 1: Wait? 135 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 4: Are you pretending to not know? 136 00:06:15,160 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 5: Now? I feel really dumb because. 137 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: It's like, does he have that huge chicken coop London guy? 138 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:22,279 Speaker 4: Oh? 139 00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 5: What? 140 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 1: No? 141 00:06:23,520 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 2: I feel like this is too good to be true. 142 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,760 Speaker 4: It's too good to be true. 143 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 5: So what is what's the urban legend? 144 00:06:34,360 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 4: This comes from Ray Dahalia, Like including on podcasts, and 145 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,640 Speaker 4: I think on like the Bridgewater website, when he was 146 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,200 Speaker 4: working on Wall Street before I started Bridgewater, he was 147 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 4: like doing commodity stuff and one of his clients was McDonald's, 148 00:06:46,600 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 4: and McDonald's were I think this is like according to 149 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 4: your history, Like this is a few years after they 150 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 4: had like introduced the chicken dugget, but before they rolled 151 00:06:54,760 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 4: it out nashally, and they were worried apparently about volatile 152 00:07:00,320 --> 00:07:02,160 Speaker 4: of chicken prices because they're like, wow, we can't put 153 00:07:02,240 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 4: chicken nuggets on the menu if the price is going 154 00:07:05,040 --> 00:07:06,280 Speaker 4: to go up and down because they have to pull 155 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 4: it off the menu raise the prices. It would be terrible. 156 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 4: We need to take the volatility out of chicken prices. 157 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,800 Speaker 4: And they came to Ray Dalio allegedly and they're like, 158 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 4: can you sell us as And Ray Dalio is like, wow, 159 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:21,840 Speaker 4: there's not like a liquid chicken market at the time. 160 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 4: This is I think from the Bridgewater website. You argued 161 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 4: that since a full grown chicken was nothing more than 162 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 4: a baby chick plus corn and soy mail, the price 163 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,120 Speaker 4: of the grains or the volatile costs, and they could 164 00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 4: hedge corn and soybean prices and they and so he 165 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,760 Speaker 4: sold McDonald's bunch of cord and s derivatives and they 166 00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 4: were able to roll out the chicken McNuggets. 167 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 168 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:44,400 Speaker 1: First of all, I love that Ray Dalio's like chosen 169 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,200 Speaker 1: creationist story for himself. His background legend is I helped 170 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 1: invent chicken McNuggets. 171 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 4: That's a good one. 172 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:55,640 Speaker 1: Secondly, McDonald's did not invent chicken McNuggets, which is something 173 00:07:55,680 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: that we learned from the podcast. 174 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 4: McDonald's did not invent the chicken nugget, but Ray Dalio 175 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,960 Speaker 4: shepherded well chicken nugget as a menu adavan. 176 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,840 Speaker 1: Sure, okay, fine, we'll let him have that one. But 177 00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: the interesting thing is we did learn about volatility in pricing, 178 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,800 Speaker 1: because this is something that the Wingstop CEO actually brings up. 179 00:08:13,880 --> 00:08:17,200 Speaker 1: One of the reasons we saw chicken wing prices specifically 180 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,760 Speaker 1: go up so much in the aftermath of the pandemic 181 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:22,520 Speaker 1: was that it turns out they're the most volatile like 182 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 1: part of the chicken. 183 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 3: Can I say I have a carcharian opinion. I think 184 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:30,400 Speaker 3: Ray Dalio did invent the chicken McNugget. Anyone could invent 185 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 3: a fried lump of chicken. It takes a true genius 186 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 3: to invent the financial hedging instruments that allows it to 187 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:39,760 Speaker 3: be commercialable. So I now accept the premise that actually 188 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 3: he and not the person who like put the chicken 189 00:08:43,040 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 3: meat in batter, should get actually be the true father. 190 00:08:46,400 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 4: I think that financial engineering underrated moving forwards in like 191 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 4: the real economy, like this he did the financial engineering 192 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,319 Speaker 4: behind the chicken. Tracey is shaking her head. 193 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: Well, you're right. It gets to an interesting question about 194 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: what drives progress. Is there underlying technology or is it. 195 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 3: The first which came first, the nugget or the financial 196 00:09:07,679 --> 00:09:10,520 Speaker 3: engineer and get to bad rap And it turns out 197 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 3: if you need that. 198 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:13,959 Speaker 1: Commercials easy to consume proteins. 199 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, I take it. I I I now give the 200 00:09:15,800 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 3: crown direct. 201 00:09:16,400 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 4: Do you think that right? Like every every like major innovation, 202 00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 4: like there's the stepe of physical intention, and then there's 203 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:23,719 Speaker 4: the stepe of like working out the financing, and like 204 00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:32,040 Speaker 4: the financing people are generally unheralded but well paid. 205 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 2: And. 206 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 1: I think Dahlia is managing. Yeah, but this is Joe's 207 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,720 Speaker 1: pitch to try to get right on the podcast. I 208 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: think to talk about chicken, you. 209 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 3: Should have on our podcast to talk about you know 210 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: who is the New York Mets manager who claimed to 211 00:09:42,480 --> 00:09:43,880 Speaker 3: invent the rap Do you remember that? 212 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,080 Speaker 5: Who is it? You know, the rap sandwich? 213 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 2: I've heard of it. 214 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:50,440 Speaker 3: The New York Mets manager in the nineties claim to 215 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 3: have invented the wrap sandwich. I can't remember his name 216 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,000 Speaker 3: right now. Anyway, it sort of reminds. 217 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:57,520 Speaker 2: Me of that, like claiming to invent the apple pie. Like, 218 00:09:57,559 --> 00:10:00,240 Speaker 2: if you just say it loudly enough, it's probably true. 219 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:02,400 Speaker 2: Can we talk about why wings are the most futile 220 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 2: part of the chicken? I did not know that. I 221 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: would have thought it was, I guess any other part 222 00:10:07,640 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 2: of the chicken from your podcast. 223 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:13,000 Speaker 4: I thought it was that the supply of chickens is 224 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 4: set by the demand for chicken breasts, and so for 225 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 4: chicken breast goes down, the supply of chickens goes down, 226 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 4: and wings do not drive the supply of chicken. So 227 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 4: the wing price is just like thank. 228 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:25,600 Speaker 5: You for listening. 229 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: That's exactly it. You learn something the chicken. 230 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: The chicken breast is like the benchmark from which all 231 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 2: the other. 232 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,680 Speaker 4: Parts part, and it's like the thing that's most used, 233 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:37,319 Speaker 4: and so like, essentially, if your wings not you're buying 234 00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 4: like a sort of. 235 00:10:38,000 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 5: Like, yeah, I like thie. 236 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 3: By the way, it's more than the breast. I think 237 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 3: it's like a better it's like the best cut. 238 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,720 Speaker 1: Have you guys had chicken feet? They're really good and 239 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: in Asia people always say they're a really good source 240 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,959 Speaker 1: of collagen. So like a lot of young women or 241 00:10:56,240 --> 00:10:58,560 Speaker 1: women will eat them for skiitcare purposes. 242 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:01,000 Speaker 2: You didn't do you just sort of slather it on 243 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:01,439 Speaker 2: your face. 244 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: No, no, you eat it, you like nibble on it. 245 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:04,600 Speaker 2: Oh man, you can. 246 00:11:04,440 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 3: Get it at most dim some places in Chinatown here, 247 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 3: So if we ever want to take a trip and 248 00:11:10,000 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 3: it's actually I really find them delius. 249 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,360 Speaker 2: I would love to watch you guys eat that. I'm 250 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:19,079 Speaker 2: not very adventurous myself, but boy do I like being included. 251 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 4: Have a new puppy, and I get served a lot 252 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 4: of ads for a lot of food products. And there's 253 00:11:24,880 --> 00:11:29,280 Speaker 4: definitely like an extremely foot looking chicken foot. 254 00:11:29,080 --> 00:11:32,679 Speaker 2: My hat dried chicken hearts, Like that's a little crunch. 255 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:35,320 Speaker 2: I figured you've had some. 256 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:39,880 Speaker 5: Yeah I have? Or chicken liver? Is that something? 257 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 4: Yeah? 258 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,280 Speaker 1: Make a Thanksgiving stuffing out of chicken liver. 259 00:11:45,360 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 5: It's really good. 260 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: Timely. 261 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:50,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll provide our recipe for chicken liver Thanksgiving stuffing 262 00:11:50,880 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: after this podcast, can I say so? 263 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,959 Speaker 2: This is a three part series. The part that caught 264 00:11:56,000 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 2: my ears the most was just like the physicality of 265 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 2: the chicken and how it changed that the idea that 266 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 2: like a chicken in the nineteen twenties, yeah, looks so 267 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: much different than a chicken in the twenty twenties. Like 268 00:12:07,720 --> 00:12:09,079 Speaker 2: I feel like I knew that somewhere in the back 269 00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 2: of my mind, but this really brought it into stark 270 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: focus for me, just how much we've changed chickens. 271 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. So chickens, like a lot of domesticated animals, are 272 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,359 Speaker 1: like the products of you know, centuries and certainly decades 273 00:12:22,440 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: of evolution. Chickens, in case you're wondering, I think they 274 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: originally came from forests of Indonesia, and back then they 275 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 1: were like skinny little jungle birds, and I think they 276 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: were mostly like black. Anyway, they spread around the world. 277 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: It turns out everyone loves chicken. One of the most 278 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: fascinating parts of chicken history and I don't know why 279 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: I know this, but for some reason I do, is 280 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:50,480 Speaker 1: in the eighteen fifties there was a chicken bubble. So 281 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,679 Speaker 1: what happened was Queen Victoria got really into chickens, like 282 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: breeding chickens, exotic chickens, and because she was the queen, 283 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: a bunch of other people got into it, and it 284 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: sort of became this fad where people were paying like 285 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: lots and lots of money to get really exotic chicken, 286 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: eating them or just breeding. They were just breeding them, 287 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 1: they were game selling them to other people. The bubble 288 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: eventually burst, by the way, and the really interesting probably 289 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: but the really interesting thing is because exotic chickens became cheap, 290 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: Charles Darwin started doing research with all these different chickens 291 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: from around the world on evolutions. So the Victorian chicken 292 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: bubble indirectly influenced our understanding of evolution. 293 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 5: This is like how the telecom bubble and then. 294 00:13:38,920 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 3: And then yeah, then because of the we had the 295 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 3: evolutionary theories of Darwin. I didn't know that this didn't 296 00:13:44,320 --> 00:13:45,640 Speaker 3: come up to it on the podcast. 297 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 1: No, I kind of figure out where to put it. 298 00:13:47,679 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: I saved it for this podcast specifically. There's a really 299 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: funny book that was written sort of contemporaneously with the 300 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 1: eighteen fifties, all about It's called hen Fever, and it's 301 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: about the chicken bubble, and it has the most amazing illustrations, 302 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:03,960 Speaker 1: including it has this picture of a guy blowing a 303 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: bunch of different bubbles, and some of them are like 304 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: what you would expect, like the south Sea expeditions and 305 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:12,080 Speaker 1: railway stocks and things like that. But then some of 306 00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: them are shang his and coachins, which are types of chickens. 307 00:14:15,760 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: And then there's one that's labeled female novelists. So I 308 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: guess in the eighteen fifties they thought female novelists were 309 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:23,119 Speaker 1: fat too many. 310 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 3: Pipe down, by the way, that was my favorite of 311 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,720 Speaker 3: the three. Like, I really like the consumer angle. Obviously, 312 00:14:29,720 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 3: it's fun to talk about the chicken sandwich wars. It's interesting, 313 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 3: like the market structure and some of the anti trust 314 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,840 Speaker 3: questions and the power. But like I do think like 315 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 3: one of the great sources of wealth in modern society 316 00:14:42,440 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 3: is abundant access to fairly and expensive protein. Yeah, And 317 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 3: the story of the chicken getting plumper and plumper, the 318 00:14:50,240 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 3: antibiotics that are used to keep them alive and keep 319 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 3: them growing and avoid sickness, the sort of feeding mechanisms 320 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 3: and so forth that have turned the sort of scrawny 321 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:00,920 Speaker 3: bird the trace he was talking to and very tasty 322 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 3: bird like to me, that's like, that's riveting, that's exciting, 323 00:15:04,160 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 3: that's progress. 324 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 4: Right, futures to make it more. 325 00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, right, and the soybet futures, which of course are crucial, 326 00:15:10,320 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 3: which we really like. That's the thing we could have done, Like, 327 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 3: because chicken is so good, we could have done episodes 328 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 3: on feed futures. Because chicken is just so inherently connected 329 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 3: to everything else, this. 330 00:15:20,480 --> 00:15:23,000 Speaker 1: Could have been like a twelve part series easily. 331 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: I think I was gonna say, you've got to get 332 00:15:24,800 --> 00:15:25,480 Speaker 2: raydally on. 333 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 4: But yeah, well. 334 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: Victorian chicken bubble, the grain market that underpins chicken nuggets. 335 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 4: Wait that one time in the market structure. Yeah, there's 336 00:15:50,240 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 4: an episode and essentially like how chicken is like uber 337 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 4: where Yeah, like the farmers who farm the chickens don't 338 00:15:56,320 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 4: own the chickens. They're outsourced from like the big they 339 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:03,600 Speaker 4: call them integrators like Tyson and Perdue, where they like 340 00:16:04,120 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 4: the integrators deliver hours old chicks to the farmers. The 341 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 4: farmers take care of them for a couple of weeks, 342 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 4: and then the integrators take them back and turn them 343 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 4: into chicken nuggets. Why is it like that? 344 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 1: That's a really good question. I think it's just like 345 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: an outcrop of the way the chicken industry evolved. By 346 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,040 Speaker 1: the way, I have an interesting fact if you don't know, 347 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: chickens can still be sent live through the US mail, 348 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: so you can live order baby chige on that. No, 349 00:16:31,800 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: but I don't really want to. I would rather go 350 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:38,680 Speaker 1: to like a local agriculture tractor. Yeah, exactly. But anyway, 351 00:16:38,800 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: so the way it worked is in the sort of 352 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 1: nineteen twenties nineteen thirties, we started getting these big broiler houses. 353 00:16:45,600 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: So people discovered. This is actually one of Joe's favorite stories, 354 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:50,560 Speaker 1: the woman in Delaware. 355 00:16:50,680 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, there was a woman in Delaware who had 356 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 3: a great name, it's to Seal Long Steel. And she 357 00:16:56,080 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 3: ordered what she ordered one hundred chickens in it. 358 00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: It was like ten chicks, like. 359 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 3: Ten chicks in the mail, and accidentally ordered a thousand. 360 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:04,800 Speaker 3: So she's like, all right, I guess I'm gonna become a. 361 00:17:04,800 --> 00:17:06,199 Speaker 2: Farm what it never happens to me. 362 00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 5: No, it doesn't happen to me either. 363 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 3: The point about uber and so then people get into 364 00:17:10,680 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 3: the farming pit is they're like, oh, I like the 365 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 3: idea of farming, and it doesn't seem that bad to 366 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:18,400 Speaker 3: be a chicken farmer, but like they're extremely highly constrained. 367 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,360 Speaker 3: The integrators they deliver them the chickens, They tell them 368 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 3: the exact specifications of the barn, the temperature, the feed, 369 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 3: how much feed, and so forth, and then they compete 370 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 3: against each other in what's called the tournament system. 371 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, so you as the farmer, are actually responsible for 372 00:17:35,000 --> 00:17:37,919 Speaker 1: a lot of the capital investments that are needed to 373 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 1: raise chickens. Meanwhile, the big integrators like a Tyson or Purdue, 374 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 1: they provide a lot of the inputs. So the baby 375 00:17:47,000 --> 00:17:49,960 Speaker 1: chicks themselves. They'll tell you like what medicines to use, 376 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: what kind of food, and so in the eyes of 377 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: the farmers, they feel like they are absorbing a lot 378 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:58,040 Speaker 1: of the big risks here while not really having a 379 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: lot of control over stuff that ultimately affects the end product. 380 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:05,520 Speaker 3: And then the tournament is you have this pool of 381 00:18:05,520 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 3: farmers in an area, and your pay for some period 382 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 3: is how far above or below the average of that pool. 383 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're pitted against each other. 384 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 3: You're pitted against each other. There's like a fixed pot. 385 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 3: And then each round, you know, some people had the 386 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 3: best chickens or the heaviest chickens or whatever it is, 387 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:26,520 Speaker 3: and some had the worst and so forth, and so 388 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 3: it's very constrained type of farming. If you imagine farming 389 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 3: in Iowa in some idyllic sense, which I think some 390 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 3: people still do, but I think we also know it's 391 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 3: big in dust show business, it's not that vision. 392 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:42,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, it's sort of like retailers like not owning they're 393 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 4: real estate. It's like it's like weird that, like the 394 00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 4: capital requirement comes from the you know, individual small farmers 395 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,639 Speaker 4: and like these big companies are making the capital investments. 396 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,320 Speaker 1: It seems to be a super beneficial way of structuring 397 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: their business for the big companies, right, you could see 398 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: why they like it. And by the way, like light, yeah, 399 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 1: that's exactly it. And they will argue that like actually 400 00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,080 Speaker 1: providing the initial round of chicks and the food and 401 00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,120 Speaker 1: the medicine is like a big cost center and they 402 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,960 Speaker 1: are taking that on. But again, like all the farmers 403 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: we spoke to had pretty similar complaints. 404 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:18,239 Speaker 4: It's not like Uber. It's not like literally they're just 405 00:19:18,280 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 4: like you know, like a matching app, like they have 406 00:19:20,520 --> 00:19:20,920 Speaker 4: a lot of. 407 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:22,360 Speaker 5: Yeah, that's right, that's right. 408 00:19:22,400 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 3: But you know, sometimes like when Uber is like you 409 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 3: could like be an entrepreneur, you know, like they pitch 410 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: it that, but in the end, the rules of the 411 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,560 Speaker 3: business are heavily constrained, and it's all within the context 412 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 3: of Uber and policy changes that Uber can make. 413 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 5: Et cetera. 414 00:19:35,920 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 3: It's similar to that in that there is a cap 415 00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 3: on one's ability to be sort of like actually a 416 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 3: business owner. 417 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 5: The sentence like even how constrained it is. 418 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:45,560 Speaker 4: Oh, you can be a farmer. You can like, yeah, farm, 419 00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 4: but it's like no, really, you're just like following their orders. 420 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: Speaking of Uber, it also gets to something else in 421 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:55,160 Speaker 1: the modern US economy, which is sort of the prevalence 422 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,240 Speaker 1: of the middleman and the power that they wield over 423 00:19:58,280 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: the economy. So Uber basically matches passengers with drivers, and 424 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: it makes a lot of money from doing that. If 425 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 1: you look at the farming industry, for every dollar that 426 00:20:09,359 --> 00:20:12,919 Speaker 1: comes out of agriculture, farmers get like twenty cents, the 427 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: other eighty cents is going to someone else, and a 428 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: lot of the someone else turns out to be middleman, 429 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 1: like the you know, the distribution networks, the integrators in 430 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,760 Speaker 1: some respect, the packaging things like that, And. 431 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:28,880 Speaker 5: There's the role of the pricing algorithm setting. Oh yeahity, 432 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 5: So this. 433 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 3: Is really interesting because we talked to all these like 434 00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 3: antitrust experts, et cetera, and they are like various targets 435 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 3: for the integrators themselves, whether they're uncompetitive things. 436 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 5: And this has come up over the years. 437 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 3: But another thing that's come up across a range of industries, 438 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:45,960 Speaker 3: again Chicken as the lens to uncover other aspects of 439 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 3: the economy, is can you have tacit price setting systems 440 00:20:51,560 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 3: not via people getting in a smoke filled room and 441 00:20:55,600 --> 00:21:00,000 Speaker 3: doing nefarious things, but via a third party pricing entity 442 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: everyone uses as some agreed upon oracle. And people make 443 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,920 Speaker 3: this claim and all kinds of different industries these days. 444 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 3: And again I'm not an anti trust lawyer expert. I 445 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: don't have a view on this, but it is certainly 446 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:15,879 Speaker 3: one area that the anti trust focused people are like 447 00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 3: eager to sink their teeth into. 448 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 4: We talked about this on our podcast about farmer's markets, 449 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 4: because there's like a Cornell project that like gives basically 450 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,719 Speaker 4: like market price information to people running stalls at farmers markets. 451 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,480 Speaker 4: And I sort of jokingly suggest that that that is 452 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:34,399 Speaker 4: analogous to like, you know, the dj I brought a 453 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 4: case against Real Page in the rental business, and then 454 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 4: you talk about they brought a case against Acrostats and 455 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 4: the sort of big agriculture. 456 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: Business working Beneath every antitrust case is a discussion over 457 00:21:44,520 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: whether you're actually breaking the law or it's, uh, it's 458 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: just good business. 459 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 2: Right. 460 00:21:48,400 --> 00:21:50,400 Speaker 4: It's wild because it's like you know, the olden days, 461 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,400 Speaker 4: like you'd get together in a room and you'd be like, ah, 462 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:54,280 Speaker 4: these are our prices, these are our prices, and you'd 463 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 4: like wink or whatever, and yeah, yeah, we've agreed to 464 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 4: prices here. There's no like explicit agreement. But it's just 465 00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:03,080 Speaker 4: like if everyone has each other's prices, then there is 466 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 4: an argument that I'm not really sure it's true. It 467 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 4: seems to be true. Yeah, there's an argument that that 468 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 4: allows them a creating mechanism. Yeah, it's a coordinating mechanism. 469 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 4: If I know everyone's prices, I can undercut everyone by 470 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,720 Speaker 4: a penny and I can gain market share. And that 471 00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 4: doesn't seem to be I know. 472 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 3: The question is in some of these instances, whether you 473 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: get penalized or whether now I don't have any I 474 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,679 Speaker 3: do not know whether this ever came up in the 475 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,639 Speaker 3: Agristats claim in some of the interests in agristats. But 476 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,919 Speaker 3: isn't one of the arguments, at least in real page 477 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,119 Speaker 3: that some of the allegations or that there was some 478 00:22:36,240 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 3: penalty to landlords who deviated, or that there was some right. 479 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 4: I don't think it's quite that, but I think that's 480 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 4: that real page is both like providing the information and 481 00:22:44,000 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 4: also providing a prising recommendation, and so real page pushes 482 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 4: those pop Let's say, but if you're providing pure information, 483 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 4: I think if you have. 484 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,240 Speaker 3: Literal if I have an s P Y E TF, 485 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 3: I'm gonna look at the ticker on the Bloomberg terminal 486 00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:58,840 Speaker 3: first before I sell it. 487 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 5: Right market research? 488 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, did that actually happen in the old day? 489 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 3: Like people like smoke field room wink, Like did that 490 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,679 Speaker 3: really happen? Or is that just a metaphor that we 491 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:10,280 Speaker 3: use to describe coordinator? 492 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: Are you asking that if. 493 00:23:11,880 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 4: As a lawyer, the most famous cartel is OPAK where 494 00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 4: they meet in a room, right, And there have been 495 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 4: recent cases, you know, like the FEC is a little 496 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,960 Speaker 4: concerned about some like US shell producers going to those 497 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,320 Speaker 4: meetings and like there's like a dinner and like was 498 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,920 Speaker 4: the dinner to discuss raising prices or not. Like the 499 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 4: people say no, the SEC says yes. It's like a 500 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 4: little there was definitely a dinner. What did they tell 501 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,159 Speaker 4: you about at the dinner. There's a famous story, and 502 00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 4: I'm not forgetting on where it was. There's a famous 503 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 4: story of a company like there was a formal policy 504 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:44,480 Speaker 4: that they would say we are not going to colude 505 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 4: with the competitors, and then they'd wink say they were, 506 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,479 Speaker 4: and then like they sent out a memo or like 507 00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 4: there's like a recording of someone saying I didn't wink. 508 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,680 Speaker 4: Like it's like it's like a famous story an anti 509 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:57,840 Speaker 4: dress enforcement, but not to your point. 510 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: Your point earlier about like, okay, if you could see 511 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 1: everyone's prices or you have like a rough guideline about 512 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: what's going on with prices, why don't you just undercut 513 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:10,359 Speaker 1: your competitors. This is something that we talk about in 514 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 1: the first episode when we're talking about the consumer experience 515 00:24:13,440 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: and inflation, and the answer is, well, if you only 516 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: have a handful of big companies that are doing this, 517 00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,400 Speaker 1: you know, first of all, the incentive is not necessarily 518 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: necessarily there to try to get into a price war. 519 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 1: This is the classic like antitrust argument, if you consolidate companies, 520 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 1: then they raise their prices, they have more market power. 521 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: But there's another aspect going on in the past few years, 522 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,760 Speaker 1: which is we had the big pandemic, we had avian flu, 523 00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,359 Speaker 1: we had labor shortages, we had all these massive, one 524 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 1: off specific events. And when that happens, you know, consumers 525 00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,720 Speaker 1: hear about them. And so if companies say, well, we 526 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: have to raise our prices because of avian flu or 527 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 1: because of the pandemic, consumers are more willing to kind 528 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: of accept that and they have fewer alternatives. Right, everyone 529 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: is doing it at the same time because of these 530 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: same like exogenous shocks. Then where are you going to 531 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:13,200 Speaker 1: go to get cheap eggs or chickens? 532 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,240 Speaker 4: Check out beak Capitalism on the odd Lots podcast feed 533 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:30,520 Speaker 4: wherever you get your podcasts. Do you guys know about 534 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 4: the Georgia doc? 535 00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: No like doc like dck This rings a bell? Actually 536 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:37,679 Speaker 1: I wrote it. 537 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:39,199 Speaker 4: It was years ago, and I don't know if it's 538 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 4: still a thing. There have been like periodic waves of 539 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 4: antitrust interest in the chicken industry, and there is one 540 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 4: in like twenty seventeen twenty eighteen that I used to 541 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 4: refer to as chicken libor here's a thing, an index 542 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 4: called the Georgia doc Index, which was set by a guy. 543 00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:59,439 Speaker 4: His name was Ardie Schwantz. He worked for the like 544 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 4: Georgia Agriculture or whatever, and he would call chicken producers 545 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 4: every day, every week or whatever and say, what price 546 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:08,440 Speaker 4: are you getting for like two and a half pound chickens, which, 547 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:10,439 Speaker 4: as I learned from your podcast, no one produces two 548 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:12,400 Speaker 4: and a half pound chickens anymore. So the people would 549 00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,280 Speaker 4: like make up a number and they'd tell him the 550 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:16,280 Speaker 4: number and he'd write it down and that would go 551 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,840 Speaker 4: into the Georgia doc Index. And then a lot of 552 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 4: like chicken supply contracts were set as like. 553 00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 5: A pinion, they were pushing it up so like there. 554 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 4: Were allegations that they were, you know, reporting two high 555 00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 4: prices to. 556 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: Have another episode for our twelve part series. 557 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 3: Interesting over the years, you learn like how many indices 558 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,360 Speaker 3: that exist that you can find a chart of are 559 00:26:41,480 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 3: essentially put together like this years ago, probably about like 560 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:46,960 Speaker 3: nine years ago, I remember talking to someone who's working 561 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:50,359 Speaker 3: at Bloomberg actually, and there was like some scrap metal 562 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 3: index and it was just like you called there were 563 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,560 Speaker 3: like a handful of junk metal yards that you call 564 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 3: up and. 565 00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:56,640 Speaker 5: Then you get the price. 566 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 3: Actually, you know, speaking of another one is lumber, and 567 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 3: what's really interest seeing so the company that creates the 568 00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 3: lumber index, I think it's called Random Lengths actually, and 569 00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,200 Speaker 3: they're the ones who create the benchmark futures. They also 570 00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,200 Speaker 3: have a very interesting thing. So they do this, they. 571 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,200 Speaker 5: Call various places how much did you sell a piece 572 00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:13,200 Speaker 5: of lumber? Four each day? 573 00:27:13,359 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 3: And then what's actually cool is you can read the 574 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,640 Speaker 3: contract and they talk about all of the ethical things 575 00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,479 Speaker 3: that like the rules of the question, because they are 576 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 3: aware that all indices such as these create situations potentially 577 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 3: like Georgia docks or libor, and so they actually have 578 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,120 Speaker 3: a whole set of rules about the collection process. The 579 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:33,920 Speaker 3: address is basically exactly this question. 580 00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,120 Speaker 2: I thought you were going to bring up the dog 581 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 2: kill index. 582 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 5: That's Tracy's obsession. 583 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,200 Speaker 2: But I don't think anyone is pushing up the price 584 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:42,120 Speaker 2: of that benchmark. 585 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: Part this was this was one of our questions at 586 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 1: a recent m quiz, was like, which of these indexes 587 00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: is actually real? Which of these terminal indexes? And the 588 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: one that was real was the dog kill index. Almost 589 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 1: no one got that right, Yeah, that's no one believes 590 00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,959 Speaker 1: that that actually exists. You know, used to have a 591 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: Columbia Oh yeah, so it's basically the number of dogs 592 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: that die in the possession of airplanes when they're in 593 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:13,679 Speaker 1: air transit. I know. But speaking the cob indexes, we 594 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: used to have a Columbia kidnapping index too, but I 595 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,800 Speaker 1: think they discontinued that died down. 596 00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:23,160 Speaker 5: A bit some deep lore. 597 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,120 Speaker 2: I do want to talk about the price of eggs more, 598 00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:32,159 Speaker 2: because yeah, well it's sort of become one of, at 599 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:35,440 Speaker 2: least in my circles, one of the most watched indexes, 600 00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 2: because you talk about inflation and the thing that people 601 00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,520 Speaker 2: complain about is gas and eggs. And I mean, Tracy, 602 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 2: you were mentioning that there's well explained reasons why the 603 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 2: price of eggs has been so volatile, bird flu being 604 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 2: one of them. And I'm never quite sure we are 605 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 2: in the cycle of bird flu because it's an issue, 606 00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:56,840 Speaker 2: and then it feels like it died down again. Now 607 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: we're talking about bird flu again, and I just don't 608 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: know where we are in terms of how worried I 609 00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: should be about bird flu. 610 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:06,760 Speaker 1: So when we started the series, we did not really 611 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,720 Speaker 1: expect eggs to become this huge political talking point, but 612 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: they did during the election. And where we are with 613 00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: bird flu. Okay, so we had a really big spike 614 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: in twenty twenty two and we saw the price of 615 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: eggs shoot up. That since died down. But if you 616 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,800 Speaker 1: look at the egg price index on the Bloomberg, there's 617 00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: more than one. By the way, we have a bunch 618 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: of different ones. You can see they're starting to go 619 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: back up again, and that's because we are getting more 620 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 1: bird flu reported. The interesting thing is we're starting to 621 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: get it in other animals too, So you know, cows, 622 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 1: pigs are the really worrying one because pigs have like 623 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: a genome that is very similar to humans, and so 624 00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: the concern is that if it gets into pigs, it'll 625 00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 1: mutate into something. 626 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: That was my question, like, at what point personally I 627 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: need to be concerned about contracting bird flu in some way. 628 00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: When more pigs start getting bird flu and when it 629 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: starts it's mutating. 630 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,800 Speaker 5: Some smart people I know are like anxious. 631 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:06,480 Speaker 1: Ye heah, you need a pig mutation index on the 632 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,760 Speaker 1: Bloomberg terminal that would be really worrying. 633 00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: Got to get our best and brightest on us, that's worrisome. Well, 634 00:30:12,480 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 2: before I spiral, let's just keep it to like the 635 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:18,760 Speaker 2: chicken industry, because I do wonder. I mean, how does 636 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 2: it spread. One of the parts that was a hard 637 00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 2: listen when it came to this episode was listening to 638 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: I think it was Craig Watts describing how he had 639 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 2: like thirty thousand chickens in twenty thousand square feet. It 640 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,280 Speaker 2: sounds like these birds are just on top of each other. 641 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,000 Speaker 2: So I mean, how quickly does bird flu spread? And 642 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 2: what does that mean for the industry? 643 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: So you're right, this is one of the downsides of 644 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: industrial scale chicken farming, which is you have a lot 645 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: of birds and you have them in a relatively crowded space. 646 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,680 Speaker 1: Joe has heard me tell this story before. Not many 647 00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 1: people know that I was born in Arkansas, and so 648 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,400 Speaker 1: I spent time there with my grandma and she used 649 00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: to take me to like chicken farms for fun or something. 650 00:31:02,880 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: I don't know why, but I would walk into these 651 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: like giant warehouses thinking like, Oh, this is gonna be fun. 652 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to play with like fluffy baby chicks and 653 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:13,640 Speaker 1: I love chickens, blah blah blah. And you'd walk in 654 00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: and you'd be like looking around and there are a 655 00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: lot of dead chickens. They're just like lying there. You know, 656 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: they get cleaned up once a day or so, but 657 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,880 Speaker 1: there's a lot mm. So, yeah, this is the issue. 658 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,760 Speaker 1: So you have crowded conditions, it's very difficult to segregate 659 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,640 Speaker 1: farm chickens from the wild bird population. Like wild birds 660 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: that have avian flu can still get in. They can 661 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: eat the grain infect it that way, and so that's 662 00:31:40,600 --> 00:31:42,840 Speaker 1: one reason why it's been really hard to stamp out. 663 00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 3: Speaking on this point, you know, another interesting angle here 664 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 3: is the sort of externalities of industrial what was the 665 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 3: name Austin Frerik, Yeah, one of the guys, and talk 666 00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 3: about the waste water runoff, et cetera, and so like, 667 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 3: like I said, I am an optimist about the existence 668 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 3: of cheap protein, and I think it's some more of 669 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 3: a wealthy society. But there are some interesting costs that 670 00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:07,080 Speaker 3: we have to take seriously, and one of them is 671 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 3: environmental and what it does to sort of the various 672 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 3: water streams in some of these areas where there is 673 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 3: a lot of industrial farming and excrement gets in the water, 674 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 3: which is really bad obviously, and so there are. You know, 675 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 3: obviously bird flu itself and the potential for that to 676 00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 3: move into other animals is scary. But then they're also 677 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 3: the sort of like slower burn issues and why in 678 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 3: some farming communities there's been like a pushback about like 679 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:33,959 Speaker 3: how much more of this do we want? And how 680 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,560 Speaker 3: much everyone else's cheap chicken is sort of slow degradation 681 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:38,880 Speaker 3: of the environment around. 682 00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,400 Speaker 2: It, so depressing. 683 00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: We've left these speechless. 684 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 4: Is there like an artistical chicken farming ecosystem. 685 00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:53,840 Speaker 1: Where well, I mean backyard chickens would be one way. 686 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 4: If you go to a start of buy like the 687 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 4: fanciest chicken you can find as it's still from a 688 00:32:58,760 --> 00:32:59,520 Speaker 4: giant warehouse. 689 00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,720 Speaker 1: Or that's actually a good question. I know of one. Again, 690 00:33:03,760 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: I'm slightly obsessed with chickens. I know of one like 691 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: avian geneticist in the Northeast who breeds really interesting chickens, 692 00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: and he's sort of like on a small scale, so 693 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 1: maybe they do except well. 694 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 2: On a slightly bigger scale. I interviewed the Sea of 695 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 2: Vital Farms last week and one of their advertising points 696 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 2: is that it's like one hundred and seven square feet 697 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 2: per chicken, So that was really interesting. He also said 698 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 2: I thought this was interesting too on his most recent 699 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,320 Speaker 2: earnings call. Our challenge right now, as always is that 700 00:33:34,360 --> 00:33:36,440 Speaker 2: I can't get the chickens to lay more eggs in 701 00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:39,200 Speaker 2: the short run, so a lot of demand and not 702 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: a lot of eggs. But I mean, that's interesting again 703 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 2: that they're advertising on that point that we give these 704 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,000 Speaker 2: chickens all this space. 705 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 3: Are brown eggs just like better than white eggs? I 706 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,560 Speaker 3: feel like they don't look as nice though. I think 707 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:53,480 Speaker 3: people just assume they must be either better for the 708 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:55,200 Speaker 3: environment or healthier or starting to think through that. 709 00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:58,640 Speaker 1: Have you seen the Easter egger chickens. No, these are 710 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 1: the ones that lay eggs in all different colors, so 711 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,880 Speaker 1: like blue and green and white and brown. 712 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:08,360 Speaker 2: Do you my stupid cushions told them different? 713 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,839 Speaker 1: No, No, they just do it. 714 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:11,239 Speaker 2: I don't know. 715 00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,759 Speaker 1: The one thing I don't know is like whether one 716 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: Easter egger produces like only green eggs and then another 717 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,800 Speaker 1: Easter egger will produce like only pink ones. 718 00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,399 Speaker 2: I thought that the bunny rabbits laid the Easter eggs. Yeah, 719 00:34:22,400 --> 00:34:28,200 Speaker 2: that's right, Katie, thinking that chickenization, I said that, right. 720 00:34:29,280 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 2: Do other animal industries look like this? Does the pork 721 00:34:33,560 --> 00:34:36,160 Speaker 2: industry look like this, what does the cow industry look like? 722 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:37,360 Speaker 2: Is it as depressing? 723 00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: Yeah? So this is another talking point from the podcast, 724 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,720 Speaker 1: which is this very you know, up until now unique 725 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:49,200 Speaker 1: model of producing chickens where the big integrators are outsourcing 726 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,439 Speaker 1: a lot of those big capital risks is becoming more 727 00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:57,000 Speaker 1: common in agriculture itself. So the big example Joe brought 728 00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 1: this up earlier would be pig farming in and it 729 00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:04,879 Speaker 1: gets to interesting questions in business about who should bear 730 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,279 Speaker 1: the ultimate costs of a business. We kind of talked 731 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: about that earlier, but again to Joe's point earlier, it 732 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,160 Speaker 1: gets to interesting questions about who should bear the environmental costs. 733 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 1: So maybe all of America is okay with Iowa like 734 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:21,399 Speaker 1: being responsible for raising our pigs and having to deal 735 00:35:21,480 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: with like manure runoff and stuff like that and spoiling 736 00:35:25,200 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: its water systems, but probably Iowa is not. 737 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 3: Can I just say, like, after having done this series, 738 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 3: I don't really view it as depressing. I don't want 739 00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:36,960 Speaker 3: this to be seen as like, you know, some sort 740 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 3: of Jeremiah against the chicken industry. I think just think 741 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 3: there's a lot of interesting tensions, right, Like, there's benefits 742 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 3: to industrial scale chicken farming. There's complicated market aspects of 743 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:53,360 Speaker 3: industrial chicken scale farming. There's amazing consumer outcomes like the 744 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,040 Speaker 3: chicken sandwich wars, and like those are very delicious, and 745 00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,160 Speaker 3: there are costs, whether it is the risk war and 746 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 3: by the farmers, the risk of disease and the risk 747 00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 3: of environment. Right, Like I don't, but I don't perceive 748 00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:09,920 Speaker 3: the whole project to be like an anti chicken thing 749 00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:10,239 Speaker 3: at all. 750 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:13,480 Speaker 1: No, I want both the people and the chickens to 751 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:16,760 Speaker 1: be happy. That's my version of an ideal culture. 752 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 2: That's like I can't as an animal freak, can't get 753 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,600 Speaker 2: past the chickens and like, you know, them falling over 754 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:30,239 Speaker 2: because like they've been to this point where you know, 755 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:32,319 Speaker 2: they can't stand up straight. I don't know if this 756 00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 2: came up in any of your discussions, but like, where 757 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,920 Speaker 2: are we on lab grown chicken? Because I have another 758 00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:42,680 Speaker 2: episode that like, cheap protein is great for a society, 759 00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: it's the marker of a successful society. But surely there's 760 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 2: a way to achieve that without what's happening to these animals. 761 00:36:52,760 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 2: Really showing my true colors on this podcast No Judgments 762 00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:01,400 Speaker 2: for several years and then know I lost, but yeah. 763 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:02,600 Speaker 1: Joe's vegetarian. I was. 764 00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,719 Speaker 3: I was raised vegetarian. I had my first week when 765 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,160 Speaker 3: I was age twenty four. Wow. Yeah, when I moved 766 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 3: to New York, I was like, all right, and there's 767 00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 3: just too much good for I didn't and I like 768 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 3: went straight. 769 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 4: I was like, I. 770 00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:14,560 Speaker 5: Tried, Uh wait, what was it? 771 00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: Do you remember? 772 00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:16,680 Speaker 3: So I ate a piece of sushi, which is a 773 00:37:16,680 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 3: little weird because people like I was raw but it 774 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:19,920 Speaker 3: looked at peel like. And then a week later I 775 00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 3: was like eating steaks a hard launch. 776 00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:23,840 Speaker 5: Yeah, it's a hard hard launch. 777 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:24,120 Speaker 4: Yeah. 778 00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:26,719 Speaker 5: My parents were hippie, so I was raised vegetarian. 779 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, I was a vegetarian for like ages eleven to fourteen. 780 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 2: I feel like I stunned in my growth. I'm shorter 781 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,040 Speaker 2: than both my parents. But anyway, it doesn't matter. 782 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,680 Speaker 5: Your podcast, I think, thanks for coming on guys, thanks 783 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:41,640 Speaker 5: for having us. That was black. 784 00:37:41,719 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for letting us talk about chicken. 785 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:46,239 Speaker 2: No one made a chicken sound or a pun. 786 00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:48,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, you made one pun I did. 787 00:37:48,560 --> 00:37:48,799 Speaker 4: Yeah. 788 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:49,960 Speaker 1: I was very proud of me. 789 00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 5: What do I say? 790 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:56,200 Speaker 1: I can't remember, but you did make one. 791 00:37:57,200 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 4: And that was the Money Stuff podcast. 792 00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:00,960 Speaker 2: I'm that movie and I'm Katie Greifeld. 793 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 4: You can find my work by subscribing to The Money 794 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,720 Speaker 4: stuffnewsletter on Bloomberg dot com. 795 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,959 Speaker 2: And you can find me on Bloomberg TV every day 796 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,080 Speaker 2: on Open Interest between nine to eleven am Eastern. 797 00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:13,000 Speaker 4: We'd love to hear from you. You can send an 798 00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 4: email to Moneypod at Bloomberg dot net, ask us a 799 00:38:16,280 --> 00:38:17,680 Speaker 4: question and we might answer it on air. 800 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 2: You can also subscribe to our show wherever you're listening 801 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 2: right now and leave us a review. It helps more 802 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:22,960 Speaker 2: people find the show. 803 00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:26,080 Speaker 4: The Money Stuff Podcast is produced by Anna Maserakus and 804 00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:26,879 Speaker 4: Moses on Them. 805 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,959 Speaker 2: Our theme music was composed by Blake Maples. Special thanks 806 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 2: this week to Carmen Rodriguez. 807 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:34,640 Speaker 4: Brandon Frances Nunims, our executive producer. 808 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 2: And Stage Bauman is Bloomberg's head of Podcasts. 809 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:39,040 Speaker 4: Thanks for listening to The Money Stuff Podcast. We'll be 810 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:40,640 Speaker 4: back next week with more stuff. 811 00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:53,960 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to The Money Stuff Podcast. If you 812 00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,239 Speaker 2: never want to miss a story, become a Bloomberg dot 813 00:38:56,239 --> 00:38:59,640 Speaker 2: com subscriber today. Check out our special intro offer right 814 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,040 Speaker 2: now at bloomberg dot com Slash Podcast Offer, or click 815 00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 2: the link in our show notes. You also unlock deep 816 00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 2: reporting data and analysis from reporters around the world.