1
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,680
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff

2
00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:14,040
Speaker 1: Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

3
00:00:14,080 --> 00:00:16,440
Speaker 1: My name is Robert Lamb and my name is Julie Douglas,

4
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:21,000
Speaker 1: and we're continuing our discussion on personhood. That's right. Last

5
00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:25,079
Speaker 1: week we covered the foundation of what personhood is, and

6
00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,560
Speaker 1: this week we are going to continue the conversation and

7
00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:31,760
Speaker 1: you'll hear a bit more about personhood as it relates

8
00:00:31,800 --> 00:00:34,800
Speaker 1: to animals and robots. All right, So we have talked

9
00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:38,600
Speaker 1: about personhood in in this idea of our past selves,

10
00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:43,800
Speaker 1: our future selves. Um, personhood as as a corporate metaphysical entity.

11
00:00:43,960 --> 00:00:47,840
Speaker 1: And now animals in personhood. Oh yeah, yeah, I guess

12
00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:49,879
Speaker 1: we're kind of taking a step backwards because they were

13
00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,040
Speaker 1: here before us. That they we don't talk about until

14
00:00:52,040 --> 00:00:55,760
Speaker 1: we're done with corporations. Sorry, but the corporations have more money,

15
00:00:55,880 --> 00:01:00,160
Speaker 1: uh than do the dolphins. Um. The dolphins are certainly

16
00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:03,000
Speaker 1: one of the animals you hear about the most when

17
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,840
Speaker 1: it comes to personhood and the great apes. Um, you know,

18
00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,440
Speaker 1: but it's the idea that you have, you have creatures

19
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:14,600
Speaker 1: that they are not really all that useful to us. Yes,

20
00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 1: we can eat grillas and dolphins but they're not that.

21
00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,800
Speaker 1: Um and uh, and in that sense, they are beyond

22
00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:28,000
Speaker 1: use by humans, although great apes or sometimes he used

23
00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:31,560
Speaker 1: this bush meat, and Jane Goodall is certainly someone who

24
00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:35,200
Speaker 1: is an advocate of personhood for great apes, for instance,

25
00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,959
Speaker 1: so that they, you know, don't become extinct, so that

26
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,760
Speaker 1: they are not hunted for bush meat. Yeah. Well, like

27
00:01:40,880 --> 00:01:43,120
Speaker 1: I'm gonna throw a quick quote here. Um, this is

28
00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:45,760
Speaker 1: where I got there. Beyond use a bit there, And

29
00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:50,640
Speaker 1: this is from Thomas I. White, who is uh. He

30
00:01:50,800 --> 00:01:54,320
Speaker 1: has the Conrad In Hilton Chair of Business Ethics at

31
00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,760
Speaker 1: Loyola Marymont University in Los Angeles, and he says, quote,

32
00:01:58,960 --> 00:02:03,600
Speaker 1: the evidence for cognitive and effective sophistication, currently most strongly

33
00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:08,120
Speaker 1: documented in dolphins, supports the claim that these cetaceans are

34
00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:12,800
Speaker 1: non human persons, said White. As a result, cetaceans should

35
00:02:12,840 --> 00:02:16,320
Speaker 1: be seen as beyond use by humans and have moral

36
00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 1: standings as individuals. It is therefore ethically indefensible to kill,

37
00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,200
Speaker 1: injured or keep these beings captive for human purposes. So

38
00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:26,200
Speaker 1: that's that's what White had to say about the matter,

39
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,919
Speaker 1: pointing to the the level at which the individual's mind

40
00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:35,000
Speaker 1: is operating and the the limited extent to which they're

41
00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,680
Speaker 1: useful to humans. Yeah, and I think non human persons

42
00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:40,679
Speaker 1: is the key wording here, because he's not saying like,

43
00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:42,720
Speaker 1: let's give them a right to vote or set on injuries,

44
00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:47,000
Speaker 1: but he is saying that they are exhibiting, you know, consciousness,

45
00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:51,200
Speaker 1: They are exhibiting um, you know, language ability, higher cognition

46
00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,240
Speaker 1: like abstract thinking, um, both for great apes and for dolphins.

47
00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,160
Speaker 1: So he's saying that in these in this case, we

48
00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:02,760
Speaker 1: really need to try to figure out what self awareness

49
00:03:02,840 --> 00:03:08,480
Speaker 1: means on this level. Yeah. You see the mirror tests

50
00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:12,160
Speaker 1: thrown out a lot of times in dealing with with

51
00:03:12,160 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 1: with personhood with animals, and this is simply if shown

52
00:03:16,040 --> 00:03:18,880
Speaker 1: a mirror, can the does the animal recognize itself in

53
00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:21,919
Speaker 1: the mirror? So you often see these used with great apes,

54
00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:24,440
Speaker 1: but it should be mentioned that other animals can pull

55
00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,640
Speaker 1: it off as well, like the magpie, a little bird

56
00:03:26,960 --> 00:03:30,240
Speaker 1: can do it. Uh. And also worth noting that human

57
00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:33,679
Speaker 1: beings with face blindness, uh, they may not be able

58
00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:38,080
Speaker 1: to do it. So it's not there's not it's such

59
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:41,200
Speaker 1: a simple test. It's guaranteed to not actually be an

60
00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:46,760
Speaker 1: effective gauge of personhood. But but yeah, you get into

61
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:51,080
Speaker 1: these these questions to what extent are some, if not

62
00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: many animals UM worthy of a personhood status, Like is

63
00:03:56,760 --> 00:04:00,440
Speaker 1: a like a beloved pet? Just I mean does quite

64
00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,760
Speaker 1: have personhood status? But a beloved pet has more rights

65
00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:08,800
Speaker 1: in this country than say, like a wild coyote or

66
00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,080
Speaker 1: protected species has more has more rights than a non

67
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:14,560
Speaker 1: protected species. So I mean there are there are varying

68
00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:17,120
Speaker 1: levels of protection and play, like if you kill somebody's pet,

69
00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,680
Speaker 1: you're in more trouble than if you kill obviously a cockroach. Well,

70
00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,400
Speaker 1: there was something that I read, and I wish that

71
00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:27,839
Speaker 1: I could remember the person um and attribute this to

72
00:04:28,400 --> 00:04:30,800
Speaker 1: that person. But what they were basically saying is that

73
00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:32,840
Speaker 1: we are at a point in science now that we

74
00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:37,440
Speaker 1: understand much better the way that animals think, they socialize, uh,

75
00:04:37,520 --> 00:04:41,200
Speaker 1: their ability to feel pain, to express themselves, um, and

76
00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:45,720
Speaker 1: animals like dolphins and great apes, uh that they there's

77
00:04:45,760 --> 00:04:49,000
Speaker 1: a sentient quality to them. And we're not saying this

78
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,719
Speaker 1: is apples and apples. They're not humans, obviously, but he

79
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:53,400
Speaker 1: is saying that we're at a point where we should

80
00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:56,280
Speaker 1: probably step back in knowing what we know, what science

81
00:04:56,279 --> 00:04:59,840
Speaker 1: has has borne out in terms of their intelligence, we

82
00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:03,839
Speaker 1: should begin to redefine how we treat them or we

83
00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:07,080
Speaker 1: look at them, um, and what personhood might mean in

84
00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:12,080
Speaker 1: that situation, like in a in a certain sense personhood

85
00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,920
Speaker 1: like like as far as personhood and people goes it

86
00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,680
Speaker 1: like it boils down to this realization that oh, it's

87
00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:22,200
Speaker 1: not just me versus the rest of the world. There

88
00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:24,200
Speaker 1: are other people that are on my side. And you

89
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,400
Speaker 1: eventually reached the point where we realize, well, actually, most

90
00:05:27,640 --> 00:05:29,839
Speaker 1: if not all, of humanity is on my side. We

91
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,719
Speaker 1: are all people, we all have personhood status. And then

92
00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,440
Speaker 1: extending that out, well, are there other things in the

93
00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:41,680
Speaker 1: world that, um are worthy of my consideration as a

94
00:05:41,760 --> 00:05:44,680
Speaker 1: person or or just well just remobe the person from

95
00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,880
Speaker 1: that that's and it's just worthy of my consideration. So

96
00:05:48,400 --> 00:05:51,120
Speaker 1: the dolphins, should I maybe think about it in in

97
00:05:51,120 --> 00:05:54,000
Speaker 1: a way that's more meaningful as that bump that my

98
00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,480
Speaker 1: my jet ski just hit, you know? Or should I

99
00:05:57,520 --> 00:06:00,440
Speaker 1: should I think of of this guerrilla as as something

100
00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,720
Speaker 1: more than just my my next meal in the bush? Well?

101
00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:06,080
Speaker 1: And then this is the problem with the way that

102
00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:09,120
Speaker 1: we view animals. And one of the books that I'm

103
00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 1: rereading this summer is some we eat, some we love,

104
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:15,640
Speaker 1: and some we kill and and uh he talks about

105
00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 1: the author talks about this idea that we really are

106
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:20,240
Speaker 1: sort of butt over teakettle when it comes to this.

107
00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,440
Speaker 1: We can't really think straight. So you know, why would

108
00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,280
Speaker 1: we look into the eyes of dogs? Some cultures look

109
00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:26,960
Speaker 1: into the eyes of a dog and see that dopey

110
00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,599
Speaker 1: stair and just fall in love. And and now that

111
00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,680
Speaker 1: we know about oxytocin and this exchange of this feel

112
00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:37,280
Speaker 1: good hormone between these two species, um, you know, and

113
00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 1: then you know, elevate this relationship we have with this

114
00:06:41,240 --> 00:06:43,640
Speaker 1: dog in this culture, Why would we do that and

115
00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:47,080
Speaker 1: not necessarily with another creature? So, yeah, it messes you up.

116
00:06:47,160 --> 00:06:49,000
Speaker 1: Like I had to tell a work with a kitten

117
00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,400
Speaker 1: in that house yesterday and you know, you keep good.

118
00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:53,440
Speaker 1: You're like, maybe I should go look at it again,

119
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:55,160
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I'm getting kind of stressed about this.

120
00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:58,200
Speaker 1: Articles you probably hold that kitten and then you look

121
00:06:58,200 --> 00:07:00,200
Speaker 1: at it and then toys with you like say you

122
00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:01,839
Speaker 1: could you could drop a bank with one. Well, this

123
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,599
Speaker 1: is this is a kitten that you guys just rescued,

124
00:07:03,640 --> 00:07:07,040
Speaker 1: and so you know you're tapping into your empathy. There's

125
00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,080
Speaker 1: good stuff. On that note, We're going to take a

126
00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:15,120
Speaker 1: quick break, but we'll be right back in just one minute,

127
00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:21,240
Speaker 1: and we're back speaking of empathy. Uh though, uh, the

128
00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:24,720
Speaker 1: final level of personhood that we're gonna talk about the day.

129
00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:30,400
Speaker 1: At what point do we consider an artificial intelligence at

130
00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,520
Speaker 1: least a an artificial person. Okay, okay, So now they

131
00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:38,120
Speaker 1: can create, create art, as we've talked about in perhaps

132
00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:43,000
Speaker 1: even create new thoughts. Okay. Um, And there's this idea

133
00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:46,360
Speaker 1: that has always been circulating that eventually we're going to

134
00:07:46,400 --> 00:07:50,480
Speaker 1: program machines and robots to the extent that they are sentient,

135
00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:52,800
Speaker 1: that they do feel pain because they're programmed that way

136
00:07:52,840 --> 00:07:57,080
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, perhaps for their I mean, yeah, you

137
00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:58,880
Speaker 1: get into a lot of weird area when you talk

138
00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 1: about this, because we we mentioned in the other podcast

139
00:08:02,640 --> 00:08:06,840
Speaker 1: the Artists Young Robot, we mentioned the creativity machine. Um,

140
00:08:06,880 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 1: if you unplug the creativity machine, it doesn't die, it

141
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:13,200
Speaker 1: doesn't feel pain, and you don't go to jail. All.

142
00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,280
Speaker 1: Some of those things do not apply when you unplug

143
00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:22,560
Speaker 1: a person in a hospital. And and yeah, so you

144
00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:24,600
Speaker 1: get to the point like, at what point have we

145
00:08:24,960 --> 00:08:31,760
Speaker 1: given a program enough of a semblance of consciousness and

146
00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:36,880
Speaker 1: a semblance of of self awareness that it deserves rights

147
00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:40,280
Speaker 1: like if you did create say you did create this

148
00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,679
Speaker 1: program or this is say there are a virtual person

149
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,800
Speaker 1: in a virtual world that feels pain, then you know

150
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,160
Speaker 1: and for whatever sadistic reasons you created that program aside,

151
00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,679
Speaker 1: then if you go in and you administer pain to

152
00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:56,440
Speaker 1: that AI, are you really doing something horrible, something morally

153
00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 1: reprehensible and should that virtual person be protected by law? Well,

154
00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,120
Speaker 1: especially when you look at the creativity machine, which Steven

155
00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,920
Speaker 1: Fuller is is saying that it has the ability to learn,

156
00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 1: it has ability to produce new thoughts. So you know,

157
00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:14,719
Speaker 1: the extrapolation is that somewhat down the road, this this

158
00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,680
Speaker 1: becomes its own thing, right, it may even maybe even

159
00:09:18,920 --> 00:09:21,600
Speaker 1: has its own consciousness if we can never really figure

160
00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:24,960
Speaker 1: out what consciousness is. But we're trying to do that, right.

161
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,120
Speaker 1: We've talked about the Blue Brain Project, which is this

162
00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:31,080
Speaker 1: reverse engineering of a hundred billion neurons in our own

163
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:34,840
Speaker 1: brains and trying to figure out what consciousness is, uh

164
00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:38,800
Speaker 1: and how that's happening. And then we've talked about this

165
00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:43,200
Speaker 1: idea of virtual immortality, where someday we're going to just

166
00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:46,480
Speaker 1: download a bunch of code from our brain that is

167
00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:49,480
Speaker 1: representing who we are who we think we are, this personhood,

168
00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,720
Speaker 1: and we're probably going to throw it into a machine

169
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,760
Speaker 1: or to a robot, and then at what point, you know,

170
00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:58,280
Speaker 1: that's probably when we get really concerned about this idea

171
00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,360
Speaker 1: of of robots or AI having personhood, because now this

172
00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:07,199
Speaker 1: thing is containing us or this idea. It's one thing

173
00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,679
Speaker 1: to worry of guerrilla has personhood. But if you know that,

174
00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:13,880
Speaker 1: if you see that guerrilla wearing your T shirt and

175
00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,520
Speaker 1: reading your favorite novel, then you're like, whoa, that gorilla

176
00:10:17,600 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 1: kind of looks like me. Now I feel really bad

177
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,959
Speaker 1: about eating it. And likewise, yeah, if you if we

178
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:26,240
Speaker 1: do whatever extent we create the AI in our own image,

179
00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:30,000
Speaker 1: if we actually attribute it with some of our individual characteristics,

180
00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,080
Speaker 1: then dad what extent as a person or the characteristics

181
00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:38,160
Speaker 1: of of other beings or unreal And there's this idea

182
00:10:38,200 --> 00:10:41,000
Speaker 1: too that it survives us and then it makes independent

183
00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,960
Speaker 1: decisions based on our own thought processes. So in the

184
00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:47,480
Speaker 1: future do we do we say, like, somehow I want

185
00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,760
Speaker 1: to legislate that my future me that is now being

186
00:10:50,840 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 1: carried out through this AI is somehow still influencing the world. Uh,

187
00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,480
Speaker 1: you know, especially if I'm have some sort of corporate ties.

188
00:11:03,520 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 1: It's an interesting idea. Yeah. And the one thing that

189
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,679
Speaker 1: I also wondered about two and this is you get

190
00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,120
Speaker 1: into the idea of first order desires and second order desires.

191
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,880
Speaker 1: Like a first order desire is something like I want

192
00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:18,440
Speaker 1: to eat a candy bar, or me want candy bar,

193
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,280
Speaker 1: or even I can has candy bar. These are all

194
00:11:21,320 --> 00:11:25,520
Speaker 1: examples of first order desires, and it doesn't take much

195
00:11:25,559 --> 00:11:29,480
Speaker 1: to have them. You know, insect wants food, insect wants

196
00:11:29,520 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 1: candy bar, but it doesn't mean that it is a person. Uh.

197
00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,760
Speaker 1: But a second order desire is the realization that you

198
00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:40,840
Speaker 1: wish you didn't want a candy bar. Okay, So this

199
00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:42,839
Speaker 1: is this idea that you're thinking about your future self

200
00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,280
Speaker 1: and you're saying, I wish I didn't want that, because

201
00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:50,000
Speaker 1: I really don't. I really will regret having eaten that

202
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,760
Speaker 1: candy bar, or even having both of those ideas in

203
00:11:53,760 --> 00:11:57,160
Speaker 1: your mind simultaneously to be like I hate candy bars,

204
00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,360
Speaker 1: I love candy bars. That kind of cognitive dissonance, yes,

205
00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:05,160
Speaker 1: Or like an Odysseus contract where one you know where,

206
00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:09,040
Speaker 1: where Odysseus straps himself to the mass of the ship

207
00:12:09,120 --> 00:12:11,960
Speaker 1: so that he won't be um one over by the

208
00:12:12,160 --> 00:12:16,880
Speaker 1: Sirens song. He knows that future Odysseus um is a

209
00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,040
Speaker 1: horn dog and we'll just be dragged to his death

210
00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:25,160
Speaker 1: outo sirens. So current Odysseus straps himself to the mass. Yeah.

211
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:28,319
Speaker 1: So I'm thinking back now to the other podcast that

212
00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 1: we just recorded about robots and art and the one

213
00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:36,840
Speaker 1: part about how they're teaching Macbeth to the machines in

214
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,880
Speaker 1: order to get these nuances and understand problem solving. So

215
00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:44,720
Speaker 1: why not just run this the same code through um?

216
00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:48,200
Speaker 1: You know, this Odysseus, this pact through machines. Do you

217
00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:51,400
Speaker 1: think that by virtue of carrying out the code that

218
00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:54,160
Speaker 1: it becomes the thing, that it becomes real, that that's

219
00:12:54,280 --> 00:13:00,760
Speaker 1: understanding of of nuance and cognitive dissonance could manifests itself

220
00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:06,040
Speaker 1: in the machine. No, yeah, it's an open question. I mean,

221
00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 1: certainly it's the domain of some of a lot of

222
00:13:07,840 --> 00:13:12,240
Speaker 1: scientific work, you know, not scientific science, fictional work. Rather, um,

223
00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:15,160
Speaker 1: you know, in the future, will ais have rights? Will

224
00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:18,120
Speaker 1: they have will they be liable for this that or

225
00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:22,560
Speaker 1: the other? Um? Richard K. Morrigan's u Altered Carbon novel.

226
00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:25,200
Speaker 1: In that one, I remember that they had they were

227
00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,080
Speaker 1: aies and he specifically mentioned that AIS had the same

228
00:13:29,160 --> 00:13:33,440
Speaker 1: level of personhood as corporations, so which which would make

229
00:13:33,520 --> 00:13:37,079
Speaker 1: sense because an AI is immortal, it doesn't it doesn't

230
00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:42,120
Speaker 1: necessarily have a body um and uh and and it

231
00:13:42,240 --> 00:13:44,520
Speaker 1: has but it does have interest in the world and

232
00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: uh and it could conceivably need to be protected from

233
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:51,120
Speaker 1: other entities. Well, and I should mention too that again,

234
00:13:51,160 --> 00:13:54,080
Speaker 1: this personhood, this idea, especially in the legal terms, is

235
00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,440
Speaker 1: something that can be interpreted many different ways and has

236
00:13:57,480 --> 00:14:01,160
Speaker 1: been by the law. So sometimes operations have been more

237
00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:06,000
Speaker 1: personhoodie than than than others, particularly right now, So when

238
00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:08,000
Speaker 1: we talk about AI, we know that there probably would

239
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:11,520
Speaker 1: be a particular set um that will be unique to

240
00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:16,520
Speaker 1: AI personhood if that in fact comes um into the discussion.

241
00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:21,560
Speaker 1: How about this, how about personhood for fictional characters? Do

242
00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:26,000
Speaker 1: you think could could you have personhood status for say

243
00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 1: Sherlock Holmes. I can see a number of of of

244
00:14:33,520 --> 00:14:36,160
Speaker 1: corporations or lawyers who might really like that because it's

245
00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:39,360
Speaker 1: sort of an extension of trademarking. Right yeah, But but

246
00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:41,440
Speaker 1: like if you reach the point where not only is

247
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,560
Speaker 1: it not only is it a brand, and you see

248
00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:46,480
Speaker 1: a certain amount of this because I remember, Um, I

249
00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:50,720
Speaker 1: remember reading about how there was some parody movie that

250
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:54,520
Speaker 1: ended up using Darth Vader and they had full cooperation

251
00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:57,640
Speaker 1: from Lucas uh. And so they had a guy in

252
00:14:57,640 --> 00:14:59,840
Speaker 1: a Darth Vader suit on set from from Lucas Is

253
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 1: through and they also had an adviser there that was

254
00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,040
Speaker 1: there to shoot down any ideas regarding things that Darth

255
00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:10,400
Speaker 1: Vader would not say or do. Um and UM, I

256
00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:12,080
Speaker 1: think it was like Night the Museum two or something.

257
00:15:12,160 --> 00:15:16,680
Speaker 1: I didn't see it, but but uh, but I kind

258
00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:19,040
Speaker 1: of love that idea because it's the idea that kind

259
00:15:19,040 --> 00:15:21,520
Speaker 1: of hints at this idea of a fictional character is

260
00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:25,640
Speaker 1: something that exists outside of human influence anymore. Like the

261
00:15:25,760 --> 00:15:28,400
Speaker 1: character is this thing that has certain rights and it

262
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:33,280
Speaker 1: shouldn't be stepped upon. So I'm I'm getting this is

263
00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:35,760
Speaker 1: a far fetched and just sort of an open question

264
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:38,200
Speaker 1: just to get everyone thinking. But but yeah, what if

265
00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:40,080
Speaker 1: you did reach an idea where and certainly if you

266
00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:42,280
Speaker 1: did through AI as well. So, like, what if we

267
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:44,600
Speaker 1: took everything that we knew about Sherlock Holmes from the

268
00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 1: work of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and some of the

269
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:52,760
Speaker 1: more um uh cannon and accepted visions of Sherlock Holmes

270
00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 1: in in cinema and what have you, and we use

271
00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,239
Speaker 1: that to generate an AI that then was the spokesman

272
00:15:59,320 --> 00:16:04,160
Speaker 1: and defender of Sherlock Holmes person of it. That would

273
00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,600
Speaker 1: be yeah, and then what have you? What if Sherlock

274
00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:13,280
Speaker 1: Holmes the AI slash fictional character personhood thing then ran

275
00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 1: for public office and impression but I can't. Yeah, it's

276
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,360
Speaker 1: kind of fun. You've gotta have a lot of there's

277
00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,520
Speaker 1: a lot of flesh involved in the head there. So anyway,

278
00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,280
Speaker 1: those are just some open questions there at the end

279
00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:33,400
Speaker 1: to get everyone thinking a little more about personhood. Uh.

280
00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:40,080
Speaker 1: It's it's a fascinating, elusive, deeply philosophical question. Uh. That

281
00:16:40,280 --> 00:16:43,040
Speaker 1: is not going to be going away anytime. So uh

282
00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,120
Speaker 1: and thank you too to everybody who wrote in about it,

283
00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,280
Speaker 1: especially Kelly um gave it some really good things to

284
00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,200
Speaker 1: think about. Um. I should mention just a real quick

285
00:16:51,440 --> 00:16:54,680
Speaker 1: if you do a quick search for personhood corporations on

286
00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,520
Speaker 1: the House Stuff Works website, you'll find an article from

287
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,800
Speaker 1: Josh Clark of stuff you should know he did an

288
00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,760
Speaker 1: article on that is pretty cool. And uh. I also

289
00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 1: found a Scientific American blog entry by Eric Michael Johnson

290
00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:12,200
Speaker 1: really interesting. It's called non human Personhood Rights and Wrongs,

291
00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:15,000
Speaker 1: and a lot of that focuses in on grade eights

292
00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:18,040
Speaker 1: because that's a Johnson's area of study, but he gets

293
00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 1: into issues of AI as well, and which it's a

294
00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 1: fascinating read. All right, do you have time to bring

295
00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,119
Speaker 1: over the robot? Yeah? I think we have time for

296
00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:31,640
Speaker 1: a quick one. The robot here does not have personhood status.

297
00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:35,000
Speaker 1: He has applied for it. We are reviewing it. All right.

298
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:37,320
Speaker 1: Here's a little bit of listener mail from Sarah. Sarah

299
00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,159
Speaker 1: writes in and says, dear Robert and Julie, after hearing

300
00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:44,440
Speaker 1: my fellow a taku anime junkies tell you about Dino

301
00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 1: I coil. I don't know if we ever got the

302
00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:49,720
Speaker 1: pronunciation on that right. Yeah, um, I thought I would

303
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:55,119
Speaker 1: tell you about the anime Um planetes Or, which is

304
00:17:55,119 --> 00:17:58,800
Speaker 1: felt p l a in et e s, which is

305
00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:02,040
Speaker 1: a sci fi anime about astronauts whose job it is

306
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:05,000
Speaker 1: to pick up space debris in order to make space

307
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:08,399
Speaker 1: safer for flight. There are stringent laws about leaving anything

308
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,720
Speaker 1: out there, and the show deals with the dangers of space,

309
00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 1: including space madness, as well as a little romance. Uh,

310
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 1: got to go, but definitely check it out. Sarah. So,

311
00:18:18,240 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 1: I looked this up. I haven't watched it, but it

312
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:23,600
Speaker 1: does look really interesting. It's like just the idea that

313
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,040
Speaker 1: this is a it's like a TV series. It's essentially

314
00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,359
Speaker 1: about about space junk, you know, and about the about

315
00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:32,600
Speaker 1: dealing with space junk, and you know, in the various

316
00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,199
Speaker 1: important narrative levels. Well that's good, right, I mean, just

317
00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,320
Speaker 1: that's hope for me that maybe it's starting to get

318
00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,320
Speaker 1: into the mainstream somewhat. I don't know if you could

319
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:42,720
Speaker 1: say that the mainstream, but at least it's getting into

320
00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,959
Speaker 1: the conversation. Yeah. And it's it's an interesting reminder too

321
00:18:45,960 --> 00:18:49,679
Speaker 1: about how rich anime can be because I'm not I mean,

322
00:18:49,720 --> 00:18:52,359
Speaker 1: I've seen some of the iconic anime flips, you know,

323
00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:55,320
Speaker 1: like you know, I've seen a Cure, you know, I've

324
00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 1: I've seen um and certainly I've watched like them the

325
00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,159
Speaker 1: AZA films and uh for some of the what's the

326
00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,679
Speaker 1: other really a Ghost in the Machine? I've seen so

327
00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:08,679
Speaker 1: some of those. But there's a whole lot of anime

328
00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:10,480
Speaker 1: that I'm I just don't even know what's going on

329
00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:12,879
Speaker 1: with And it's easy to fall into the trap of

330
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 1: just thinking of anime as you know, as as whatever

331
00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:21,280
Speaker 1: the most uh visible thing happens to be at the time,

332
00:19:21,520 --> 00:19:24,120
Speaker 1: you know. But but there's really a lot of diverse

333
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:27,440
Speaker 1: but you know, a lot of times fantastic storytelling going

334
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,040
Speaker 1: on there that's certainly worth looking at. So I think

335
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:32,160
Speaker 1: it's really awesome that that somebody out there has has

336
00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 1: has managed to to produce a show that it is

337
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 1: based on a more or lesson on on on the

338
00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:43,200
Speaker 1: skeleton of a space junk uh theme. Um. And then

339
00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,160
Speaker 1: we also heard from our listener Murphy Murphy right sences high,

340
00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:49,560
Speaker 1: Robert and Julie. My name is Murphy having from Hawaii.

341
00:19:49,840 --> 00:19:52,479
Speaker 1: But that is irrelevant. I just finished listening to your

342
00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:55,560
Speaker 1: podcast about the Higgs particle. Pretty cool. Remember that joke

343
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,920
Speaker 1: about the Higgs particle. I've electronically arrived to point out

344
00:19:58,920 --> 00:20:01,960
Speaker 1: that this is the only humorous Higgs joke because of

345
00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,720
Speaker 1: it's clever and commonly overlooks double entendre. Not only can

346
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,879
Speaker 1: you not have mass like church mass without the Higgs

347
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:11,719
Speaker 1: particle because of the Higgs particle gives stuff mass like

348
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: stuff mass, but also because you cannot have church mass

349
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 1: without the God particle. I've always been looking for some

350
00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,280
Speaker 1: recent topic to chip in about. I listen to your

351
00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 1: podcast retroactively, so usually my two cents have are so

352
00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:29,640
Speaker 1: usually my two cents or a couple of years overdue.

353
00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:31,919
Speaker 1: I love, love, love the podcast. I still have a

354
00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:33,760
Speaker 1: few hundred more to listen to, so I have to

355
00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 1: go Aloha Murphy, Murphy. Yeah. I keep forgetting that we've

356
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 1: done that many but yeah, apparently we have to a week. Yeah,

357
00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,480
Speaker 1: and um, I've got time for one more, uh listener

358
00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,960
Speaker 1: mail here, uh listener. Matt writeson and says, hey, guys,

359
00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 1: I'm slowly working my way through your older March April

360
00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,440
Speaker 1: May two twelve podcasts, and you're talking about space exploration, tech,

361
00:20:56,640 --> 00:20:59,440
Speaker 1: living in micro g environment, and the tech of Prometheus.

362
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,920
Speaker 1: In regards to these podcasts, you have to check out

363
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,439
Speaker 1: the movie Pandoram. It goes further into the detrimental mental

364
00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,240
Speaker 1: problems long term space travel can take on the human species.

365
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,280
Speaker 1: I don't think I'm giving away too much of a

366
00:21:11,280 --> 00:21:13,280
Speaker 1: spoiler when I tell you that three of the finer

367
00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:16,720
Speaker 1: points in the movie take a look at psychotic episodes,

368
00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,440
Speaker 1: cabin ship fever, memory loss due to extended hyper sleep,

369
00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 1: and biological evolution brought on by trying to adapt to

370
00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,480
Speaker 1: a spaceship environment. While it didn't play out very well

371
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,840
Speaker 1: in the box office, it is certainly worth while to

372
00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,600
Speaker 1: DVR on Sci Fi or Netflix if you don't want

373
00:21:31,600 --> 00:21:35,160
Speaker 1: the commercials. I also wrote a long time ago about

374
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 1: thinking as a kid that mirrors were not just a

375
00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:41,199
Speaker 1: reflective surface, but a window into the nearest adjacent multiverse.

376
00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 1: My reflection was really just another me who happened to

377
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:47,800
Speaker 1: check out the mirror at the same time, and that

378
00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 1: at any time I might turn a corner and run

379
00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 1: into my doppelganger. Well, I finally did meet him. His

380
00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,800
Speaker 1: name is Nega Matt and he's pretty cool dude. We

381
00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 1: exchange numbers and are scheduled to meet for Brunched next Saturday.

382
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 1: Thank you again for the great show, Matt. Well, it

383
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: was a fun email. Certainly the mirror thing. It's that

384
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,720
Speaker 1: universe is just like ours, except they spell everything backwards

385
00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 1: and um and certainly Prometheus uh not Prometheus Pandorum Uh

386
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 1: is a film that I have know people who just

387
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,720
Speaker 1: seemed to hate it, but but I really enjoyed Uh Pandorum.

388
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 1: I thought it was it was a really fun kind

389
00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,240
Speaker 1: of space horror of like a German US co production,

390
00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 1: I believe, uh some good performances in it. A lot

391
00:22:30,440 --> 00:22:33,200
Speaker 1: of money went into the the set design and the creatures,

392
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:35,960
Speaker 1: and there a number of cool little scientific ideas going on,

393
00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,000
Speaker 1: you know, and including the three that Matt mentions here. So,

394
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 1: but do they have the space punis? No, no space punis.

395
00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:46,159
Speaker 1: But but but it does involve a scenario. Okay, what

396
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:48,240
Speaker 1: if what if you have colonists on a seed ship

397
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 1: and uh, and you have genetically engineered them to rapidly advanced,

398
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 1: rapidly adapt to a new environment so that when they

399
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,439
Speaker 1: land on an exoplanet um they can get out, they

400
00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: can rapidly advance this environment. But then what if that

401
00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: ship doesn't make it to its destination and what if

402
00:23:07,520 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 1: the crew members come out and then they rapidly adapt

403
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:14,040
Speaker 1: to the environment of the ship. What would that look like?

404
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 1: So that's one of the fun ideas that this film has.

405
00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, don't go into it expecting two

406
00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,600
Speaker 1: thousand and one. But as we've discussed in the past,

407
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 1: if you go into any movie expecting two thousand woman

408
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,760
Speaker 1: isn't two thousand and one, You're gonna be a bit

409
00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:29,440
Speaker 1: discipline so so thank you guys for all that wonderful

410
00:23:29,480 --> 00:23:31,200
Speaker 1: listener mail. We get a lot of it. I wish

411
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 1: we had time to to personally respond to all of

412
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: it and or read all of it, but uh, it's

413
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:40,760
Speaker 1: just hard and and sometimes I mean to read something

414
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: and then I print it out and then I forget it,

415
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: So some of it is useder air on my part. Yeah. So, uh,

416
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,080
Speaker 1: let us know what you think about personhood, our corporations, people,

417
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:57,120
Speaker 1: our plants, Our plants people are our animals, people, our dolphins,

418
00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:01,600
Speaker 1: people are artificial intelligence? Is pol um? How about that

419
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,040
Speaker 1: guy that you just shot in that video game? What

420
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:06,719
Speaker 1: about that blade of grass that just got cut and released?

421
00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:10,600
Speaker 1: Green leaf volatiles screening for help? Yeah, all these all

422
00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: these questions on the board, so let us know what

423
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: you think. You can find us on Facebook where we

424
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: are stuff to Blow your Mind, and you can find

425
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: us on Twitter where our handle is blow the Mind,

426
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,200
Speaker 1: and you can always email us at blow the Mind

427
00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 1: at discovery dot com for more on this and thousands

428
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how Stuff Works dot com