Speaker 1: Welcome back to cutting the distance. Today's guest has been
Speaker 1: able to combine his two passions of bow hunting and
Speaker 1: mechanical engineering into designing and producing some of the best
Speaker 1: broadheads available today. Bill vander Hayden has been bow hunting
Speaker 1: for forty years. He grew up putting white tells in
Speaker 1: Wisconsin before moving to Colorado twenty four years ago. He
Speaker 1: still hunts white tales, but his focus is now primarily
Speaker 1: on Western big game, with backcountry elk cutting being his
Speaker 1: absolute favorite. He's been a mechanical engineer for thirty years,
Speaker 1: with an emphasis on mechanical design and material science. He's
Speaker 1: developed products for other companies for many years, including high tech,
Speaker 1: aerospace and medical devices, before starting Ironwell Outfitters and focusing
Speaker 1: completely on broadheads and aero components just recently. He's also
Speaker 1: an adjunct instructor of Mechanical engineering at University of Colorado,
Speaker 1: where he's currently sponsoring and directing projects related to science
Speaker 1: of bowhunting. So welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Bill, Thanks Jason, thanks for having me on.
Speaker 1: I know you just returned from a bear hunt up
Speaker 1: in Canada. It looked like a great time with some
Speaker 1: great results. Go ahead and give us a little snapshot
Speaker 1: into that hunt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been going up to Saskatchewan in the spring
Speaker 2: for oh I think it's my fourth trip up there
Speaker 2: in the last five or six years, and just seeing
Speaker 2: some giant bears and I got a good one last year,
Speaker 2: but this year was just a tank of a bear
Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy three pound and man, my heart
Speaker 2: was beating hard when I saw him coming through the woods.
Speaker 2: But yeah, a great bear is huge.
Speaker 1: Yeah, the pictures were impressive, and a lot of times
Speaker 1: on bears, it seems like pictures don't do him justice,
Speaker 1: so I can only imagine how big that that guy was.
Speaker 1: But yeah, for upper fours, you know, we're getting into
Speaker 1: that almost five hundred range. That is a giant. So
Speaker 1: congrats on that. No appreciate having you on. We're going
Speaker 1: to talk a lot about what I consider, you know,
Speaker 1: the killing end of the stick for a lot of
Speaker 1: US archery hunters, and so I'm really excited. But like
Speaker 1: every episode, we're gonna jump in to listener questions or
Speaker 1: some questions that I was able to scrounge up that
Speaker 1: people had knowing that I was going to have you
Speaker 1: on a guest today. So like every episode. If you
Speaker 1: have questions for me or my guests, please submit them
Speaker 1: to us at CTD at Phelpsgame Calls dot Com, or
Speaker 1: send us a message on social and we'll do our
Speaker 1: best to get them included. So I've got five or
Speaker 1: six questions here. Once again, I went to the is
Speaker 1: it September Yet? Facebook page group? You know, a bunch
Speaker 1: of diehard artrel hunters, and so I've got a list
Speaker 1: of questions I'm gonna throw at you here. Bill.
Speaker 2: That's good.
Speaker 1: So I don't know if there's a science to it,
Speaker 1: but we're gonna call this first question. Can you explain
Speaker 1: kind of the science of a good blood trail? This
Speaker 1: question comes to us from Derek Klein from is it
Speaker 1: September Yet?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say there's kind of probably three factors there.
Speaker 2: There's you know, shot placement, did you slight? Are your
Speaker 2: blazing able to slice all the way through? And then
Speaker 2: you know what's the shape and size of the holes
Speaker 2: really and so shot placement's going to be number one.
Speaker 2: If you get the heart lung area and you got
Speaker 2: a low exit hole, you know probably going to be
Speaker 2: a great blood trail. If you're hitting a high back
Speaker 2: lung shot, you know, just blow the spine high and back.
Speaker 2: Those can those can be not so good. You know
Speaker 2: you've got you know, the blood's got to float on
Speaker 2: the sides of the animal. Also, you know you cut
Speaker 2: the top along with that kind of shrinks down. Not
Speaker 2: a lot of not a lot of bleeding coming from that.
Speaker 2: You shoot a gut shot maybe that you know, often
Speaker 2: the guts can kind of plug the hole and the
Speaker 2: stuff coming out might not be bright red, it might
Speaker 2: be kind of more brownish or something. So that can
Speaker 2: be tough too. So you shot place is probably number one.
Speaker 2: But if you just get into the broadheads, then you know,
Speaker 2: the bigger and the more open the hole is going
Speaker 2: to generally give a better blood trail. So just a
Speaker 2: two blade slice can sometimes close up and give you
Speaker 2: a really poor blood trail, even if the slicing was
Speaker 2: kind of good through the middle. They can be good,
Speaker 2: but that's kind of a potential issue with just a
Speaker 2: straight two blade. A three blade can give you more
Speaker 2: of a hole then, because you know you don't it's
Speaker 2: not a single slice that can close up. You've got
Speaker 2: more triangular shape inside, and I would put a two
Speaker 2: blade with bleeders in that same category. You get a
Speaker 2: cross cut there inside corners don't can't really stay tension,
Speaker 2: so they pull back and there's a bit of a
Speaker 2: hole there in a single bevel with a rotation, and
Speaker 2: I prefer single bubble with bleeders with that rotation that
Speaker 2: can give more of almost a square hole because of
Speaker 2: that rotation the way it cuts to the hide, so
Speaker 2: that hole opens up holes nicely. But the other factor,
Speaker 2: and I would also say, you know, kind of bigger
Speaker 2: the better you know, our wide broadhead series gives a
Speaker 2: wider cut than our standard and in general is going
Speaker 2: to give more, you know, more blood getting out of
Speaker 2: the animal, more more tissue is sliced as you go through.
Speaker 2: But one other factor that a lot of people don't
Speaker 2: think about is that sharpness and edge retention is really
Speaker 2: important as well. I believe I've done some testing where
Speaker 2: you just push the broad different broadheads through, say like
Speaker 2: a liver or a lung you know, of an animal
Speaker 2: after you get it, and you can see that with
Speaker 2: Ironworld broadheads that are very sharp with good edge retention,
Speaker 2: you get that complete cut of the size of the
Speaker 2: head as it goes through, its slicing everything. It's not
Speaker 2: really pushing the tissue aside, whereas a lot of heads
Speaker 2: they're with cheaper blades, those edges are dull by the
Speaker 2: time they get through the hide and for sure rib
Speaker 2: and so they push a lot of tissue aside after that,
Speaker 2: don't slice it, so there's a lot less bleeding involved.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, you know, And
Speaker 1: you know, I just relate to sharpness to you know,
Speaker 1: when you cut yourself with a brand new raisor you know,
Speaker 1: it seems like it takes forever to stop bleeding. And
Speaker 1: so I've always felt sharpness, but then, like you said,
Speaker 1: keeping that thing sharp. You know, we've all ran our
Speaker 1: knife through highe We've all ran our knife, you know,
Speaker 1: along a bone and it doesn't take very long. So
Speaker 1: that that that the initial sharpness, but then the ability
Speaker 1: to hold that through is it gets through the animal
Speaker 1: or out the other side, in my opinion, is one
Speaker 1: of those like very important aspects to have that exit
Speaker 1: hole bleeding and have you found or I mean it's
Speaker 1: very tough to do, but a lot of times we
Speaker 1: get more blood out of that exit side, do you
Speaker 1: This is this is something I've always talked about. Your
Speaker 1: exit hole on a broadhead always seems to be bigger,
Speaker 1: and it's I'm gonna let you you clear up anything.
Speaker 1: I say that that may be a mistake here. But
Speaker 1: when you on you on your entry side, let's say
Speaker 1: you have a ribcage that's backing the hide, it almost
Speaker 1: guarantees that, since there's no stretch to that hide, you're
Speaker 1: going to get a hole that's the exact size of
Speaker 1: your broad head, unless you come in at an angle.
Speaker 1: You know, but you're basically going to get a mirror
Speaker 1: of your broadhead that goes in. But on the opposite
Speaker 1: side that that hide will stretch a little bit depending
Speaker 1: on the sharpness and the angle and whatnot. And as
Speaker 1: you imagine that that hide stretching over the broadhead before
Speaker 1: it finally starts to slice, you typically will get that
Speaker 1: bigger exit side. And you know, growing up or everything,
Speaker 1: you always you know that the exit hole is always bigger.
Speaker 1: They bleed more out of it. Have you found that
Speaker 1: to be true or are they very similar?
Speaker 2: I think that's probably true in general, that the exit
Speaker 2: holes seem to be a little bigger than entrance With
Speaker 2: single bubbles, I'd say that it seems to not be
Speaker 2: the case so much because that rotation on entrance in
Speaker 2: a way it's twisting and cutting. I see kind of
Speaker 2: more similar. It's a pretty open hole on both sides.
Speaker 2: God Joe's with a with a single ballot with bleeders.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And we'll get into it here in a little bit.
Speaker 1: One of the reasons I like actually a narrower head
Speaker 1: is to ensure that I get those two holes if
Speaker 1: I do everything right on my side, which isn't necessarily
Speaker 1: it doesn't relate back to the lethality of the broadhead.
Speaker 1: You know, the animal is probably still going to die.
Speaker 1: It's my ability to get more evidence on the ground,
Speaker 1: you know, so I can I can track the thing
Speaker 1: to its final location and not necessarily lose it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 1: Around here, we've got a bunch of needles or old
Speaker 1: growth they may run into. And the more blood we
Speaker 1: can get on the ground the better. And then one
Speaker 1: other thing I was going to touch you'd mentioned like
Speaker 1: a high lung shot, you know, and the result of
Speaker 1: bloods we've We've hit a lot of animals high lung
Speaker 1: and I will say once again, they die maybe faster
Speaker 1: than other ones because it does fill up their lungs
Speaker 1: with blood very quickly and stuff, you know, does the
Speaker 1: does the killing through that mechanism, But yeah, very very
Speaker 1: little blood. Now, it is a great shot if you
Speaker 1: know to to, very quick and ethical, but doesn't yield
Speaker 1: very good blood. And so it's that balance of you know,
Speaker 1: hitting them there versus getting a blood trail. So I'll
Speaker 1: diverge on that topic. We're going to get into penetration
Speaker 1: and some of the other things I personally look for
Speaker 1: on big Western big game. But no, thanks for answering
Speaker 1: Derek Klein's question there on blood trail sharpness two three
Speaker 1: or four blades. I think we covered it all there.
Speaker 1: Now there was one thing I'm going to add to this.
Speaker 1: Do you find any difference in blood blood trails single
Speaker 1: to double bevel?
Speaker 2: Does it?
Speaker 1: Does that affect aside from what you've already mentioned that
Speaker 1: entry hole or are would you say that you know,
Speaker 1: regardless of the angle of the blade and all, that
Speaker 1: they yield pretty similar blood trails everything else being equal.
Speaker 2: I would say with a two blade head, if you
Speaker 2: have a two blade without bleeder, and you compare a
Speaker 2: double bevel to a single bevel, I would give single
Speaker 2: bevel a little advantage there because there's there's kind of
Speaker 2: an s cut as it rotates in so it's it's
Speaker 2: not really a straight slit like you get with a
Speaker 2: straight two blade without bleeders, and then with the once
Speaker 2: you add the bleeders on a single level and get
Speaker 2: that rotation there, it does. I mean, if you look
Speaker 2: at the holes through the high on both sides, they
Speaker 2: are more open with that rotation. I would say that
Speaker 2: I've seen good blood trails with both. Really our double
Speaker 2: bebble with the bleeder and then our single bubble with
Speaker 2: the bleeder. There's a lot of cutting going on and
Speaker 2: the holes are opening up both sides. I think they
Speaker 2: both do really well. I might give a little advantage though,
Speaker 2: to the single bubble with bleeder, just because of the
Speaker 2: way it opens up those holes, especially the entrance hole.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. So thanks Matt.
Speaker 1: We're going to jump into the next question here. Can
Speaker 1: you explain the warranty of iron Will broadheads and kind
Speaker 1: of what that covers and what led you to that warranty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know the reason for that initially was that,
Speaker 2: you know, I spent many years trying to design develop
Speaker 2: a broadhead that would would cut through bone and stay sharp,
Speaker 2: not get damaged, you know, get you through that shoulder
Speaker 2: bone on an elk. Really, that's a failure that I
Speaker 2: had and what really got me started in this. And
Speaker 2: after many years of different steels and heat treat processes
Speaker 2: developed the steel and then in the feral material as well,
Speaker 2: there was high strength to where I could pump through
Speaker 2: the heaviest of bones and have no damage to the
Speaker 2: broad head. So, you know, because of that and the
Speaker 2: cost of our heads a lifetime, you know, guarantee you
Speaker 2: ben or break it, we replace it. We had enough
Speaker 2: abuse initially with people shooting them into you know, concrete
Speaker 2: blocks or into heavy wood over and over and you know,
Speaker 2: bending them getting them out that we kind of change
Speaker 2: the warranty a bit to say any shot you know,
Speaker 2: at or through an animal, we it's warrantied, will replace
Speaker 2: it if it gets damaged shooting at or through an animal,
Speaker 2: even if it hits rock on their side of the animal.
Speaker 2: But you know, in a hunting situation, but we don't
Speaker 2: want people shooting them. I mean some people would shoot
Speaker 2: groups into target it's all summer long, until all the
Speaker 2: blades were damaged and then you know, want to replacement
Speaker 2: three packs. So we just kind of limited it doesn't
Speaker 2: cover target shooting or you know, intentionally shooting it you know,
Speaker 2: rocks or concrete or steel, but anything in a hunting situation,
Speaker 2: we do cover warranty.
Speaker 1: So it's basically, uh, not to reword, but it's some
Speaker 1: common sense applied to hunting scenarios and making sure you're
Speaker 1: not smashing broadheads together and shooting stuff that they weren't
Speaker 1: intended to shoot through. But no, it sounds like a
Speaker 1: great warranty there, and you know, at least protect protect
Speaker 1: the product for what it was intended to.
Speaker 2: Do, right. We want we want you to be able
Speaker 2: to so they're not single use heads. And that's a
Speaker 2: new concept for a lot of people. You know, we've
Speaker 2: we've had people shoot and I probably have as well,
Speaker 2: shoot the same broadhead through several animals, maybe ten animals,
Speaker 2: and keep using that broadhead. You know, you typically you know,
Speaker 2: might need to touch up the edges to for sharpness
Speaker 2: after after couple, but you can keep using them. And
Speaker 2: that's the intention there is that when people know that
Speaker 2: once you buy the you can use these for many years.
Speaker 2: Just take some care with the you know, target shooting
Speaker 2: and things to not shoot them into something like a
Speaker 2: steel plate or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that's you know you talk about after,
Speaker 1: you know, being able to reuse those same thing here.
Speaker 1: And one thing I really loved about them, you know
Speaker 1: when I used to use replaceable bladed you know, more
Speaker 1: mass produced replaceable bladed broadheads. That was one thing, like
Speaker 1: shooting into the target. I could feel, you know, throughout
Speaker 1: a summer, like these things are getting dull when you
Speaker 1: switched over where it's you know, the iron wheel, I
Speaker 1: can just keep shooting and the thing never it's you know,
Speaker 1: whatever you do to the edge, whatever you've got done
Speaker 1: with the sharpness there. It's like a foam target really
Speaker 1: doesn't mess with that. And so I love like being
Speaker 1: able to get an aerow dialed in with a specific broadhead,
Speaker 1: knowing that however it's set up is a great combo
Speaker 1: and it's flying. Well, I don't have to mess with it.
Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about sharpening it, you know,
Speaker 1: because I've shot it one hundred times into foam.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We generally say if you're going to shoot five times,
Speaker 2: you know, I think I've measured up to ten. But
Speaker 2: we kind of say, if you want to shoot every
Speaker 2: broadhead arrow you know in your quiver and make sure
Speaker 2: that it's flying well. You know, just shoot once or
Speaker 2: toys for each arrow at you know, fifty yards or
Speaker 2: whatever makes you comfortable that that arrow is going to
Speaker 2: fly well, but five times or less than like a
Speaker 2: foam target like right heart matrix. I can't measure any
Speaker 2: difference to that edge sharpness. And that's because our hardness
Speaker 2: is sixty rock well. See, so that's a very hard
Speaker 2: strong edge. And then we do a multi stage grinding
Speaker 2: and honey, get it very sharp and it retains that
Speaker 2: edge edge really well. And that's why you can generally
Speaker 2: shoot your an animal and one pass through of you know,
Speaker 2: hide ribs exiting into you know, just say dirt, you
Speaker 2: can typically clean it up, see if it's still kind
Speaker 2: of shaving hair and put it back in your quiver,
Speaker 2: keep using it. And if it does get dull to
Speaker 2: the point where it's not shaving hair pretty quickly, you know,
Speaker 2: touch it up and keep using it too.
Speaker 1: Ye ye, all right, So the next question comes from Chase.
Speaker 1: Hopefully I don't mess up last name.
Speaker 2: Eagerly.
Speaker 1: Do your vented heads whistle or make noise?
Speaker 2: Yeah? In general, vented heads have a little bit like
Speaker 2: a like a shish to them. I guess in flight
Speaker 2: are solid heads. We just I did sound testing years
Speaker 2: ago and we just actually repeated it this past year
Speaker 2: with a with a study we're doing at the University
Speaker 2: of Colorado on aer veine designs or improved flight with
Speaker 2: fixed blade broadheads, and sound recording was part of that.
Speaker 2: We looked at the the sound from the shot to
Speaker 2: you know, passing through, which would basically be when the
Speaker 2: animals hit, and I looked at the frequency content as well,
Speaker 2: and you know what we what I would say is
Speaker 2: that our saw blade heads are very quiet similar We
Speaker 2: saw similar to field point type sound amplitude on those,
Speaker 2: so they're excellent, and our vent and blades are a
Speaker 2: bit louder. Our original V series with the small events
Speaker 2: are probably our loudest head, and then our wide series
Speaker 2: with the larger vents, that vent is a bit quieter.
Speaker 2: It's kind of like blunted through a whistle versus a
Speaker 2: tube a bit there. But we saw in both cases though,
Speaker 2: And that's this is why I don't think it's as
Speaker 2: big of a deal to some people do. Is that
Speaker 2: you get the sound of the bow going off and
Speaker 2: then the arrows, and really that bone noise is still
Speaker 2: there's still vibration noise coming from that bow, and the
Speaker 2: arrow is five to ten yards down range already, and
Speaker 2: then it gets really quiet until the arrow gets pretty
Speaker 2: close to that animal or the target, and then it
Speaker 2: flares up. So and if we looked at the segment
Speaker 2: that was say fifteen to ten yards from the animal,
Speaker 2: it was very hard to pick up a difference between
Speaker 2: different veins, different broadheads, anything. So I think I think
Speaker 2: it's a bit. I don't think it's a big of
Speaker 2: a concern that some people have. I think that sound
Speaker 2: from veins or brighthead blades or vents, it doesn't really
Speaker 2: flare up until it's so close to the animal. That's
Speaker 2: probably not as big a factor as people think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you may know better than me. I'd have
Speaker 1: to go researcher or google it. I can't remember the
Speaker 1: speed of sound versus the speed of a typical arrow, Like,
Speaker 1: do you know which one's traveling faster at that point?
Speaker 2: Speed of sound I think is like twelve hundred in
Speaker 2: your arrows, you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, three hundred. So I mean that animal is your
Speaker 1: Your arrow is never going to outrun the bow. I
Speaker 1: didn't know the numbers, but I knew this idea that
Speaker 1: that there's no regardless of that arrow whistling, that animal
Speaker 1: is gonna hear your bow before an arrow ever matters.
Speaker 1: And so it's like, in my mind, just comparing the speeds,
Speaker 1: it's like, all right, that the sound of my bow
Speaker 1: going off and with any reasonable archery distance, that animal
Speaker 1: has been made aware of my bow before he's ever
Speaker 1: going to recognize the arrow making a whistle.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, my my current thinking on this. And
Speaker 2: I try not to make, you know, gut decisions. I
Speaker 2: try to make analyze, do data driven decisions on things.
Speaker 2: But I kind of feel like, you know, because a
Speaker 2: lot of people say, you know, from a video, you
Speaker 2: can see that the animal didn't move at the shot
Speaker 2: of the bow. He moved from the you know, sound
Speaker 2: of the arrow later, But really that arrow is you know,
Speaker 2: a quarter of the way there. Maybe when he hears it,
Speaker 2: when he hears the bo go off and and that
Speaker 2: bon noise continues, you know, for another five or ten
Speaker 2: yards of that arow travel yep. And now he's looking
Speaker 2: that way, and you know, deer and animals in general
Speaker 2: have excellent vision for movement, so he looks over that way,
Speaker 2: maybe he sees movement of the hunter or whatever, or
Speaker 2: maybe even sees the arrow in flight, you know, And
Speaker 2: then I think with that movement, with that sound, they're
Speaker 2: deciding am I gonna bolt or not? And they start
Speaker 2: moving and you know, and there's a little bit of
Speaker 2: time just to register from the sound to when an
Speaker 2: animal can react. So my feeling is, yeah, maybe he
Speaker 2: moved when the arrow was maybe start moving when the
Speaker 2: arrow was halfway there, but it's still that initial sound
Speaker 2: of the bow, him looking over him, maybe maybe something
Speaker 2: he saw with his vision it's making him react that way. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's kind of my feeling, not so much the sound
Speaker 2: of the vein or the that head broadhead. But you know,
Speaker 2: that's that's not the general thinking and industry. I'm just
Speaker 2: trying to apply science and what I've kind of learned
Speaker 2: so far.
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that's all we can do.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: That's where I love being able to balance the science
Speaker 1: versus what we see out there as real world results
Speaker 1: and kind of blending those two. So next question comes
Speaker 1: from Chris past Though. What's your best practice for sharpening
Speaker 1: iron will broad heads or any broadheads for that matter.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, first off, when you get when
Speaker 2: you get our broad heads don't don't sharpen them. They're
Speaker 2: very sharp ready, it would be difficult to achieve, you know,
Speaker 2: the edge sharpness we have. We can zoom into two
Speaker 2: hundred x and it's still you know, dead sharp to
Speaker 2: one ten thousands of an inch, and so our sharpness
Speaker 2: starts way sharper than many. But in general, I would
Speaker 2: say that when you get broad heads it's good to
Speaker 2: check sharpness. You'd be surprised at how many aren't sharp
Speaker 2: out of the box, especially like a one piece solid construction,
Speaker 2: you know, two or three blade Often a lot of
Speaker 2: times those just have a milled edge, mild bevels to them.
Speaker 2: So just to note, first off, when you get heads,
Speaker 2: check to see if they're sharp, make sure they're sharp,
Speaker 2: or sharpen them when you get them. RGI shouldn't need
Speaker 2: to do that. And then it kind of depends on
Speaker 2: how much that edge is worn away. Generally with ours,
Speaker 2: it's kind of like a high end knife. The hardness,
Speaker 2: the sharpness is very good to start with, and you
Speaker 2: can typically go through you know, hide meat, even a
Speaker 2: rib and have that edge would be pretty good. So
Speaker 2: I would first just clean it up, check and see
Speaker 2: if it's still sharp. Shaven hair, or you can see
Speaker 2: if it kind of cuts paper. If it's good, just
Speaker 2: leave it. If if the edges still look good you
Speaker 2: don't see any flats or rolled edge or anything like that,
Speaker 2: but it's not quite shaving hair cutting paper. Then I
Speaker 2: just and there's videos on our YouTube channel that show this,
Speaker 2: but I just start with like an extra fine stone
Speaker 2: and by hand, kind of hold hold the bubble, kind
Speaker 2: of match the bubble, just tip it slightly so I'm
Speaker 2: contacting the edge and just you know, a few strokes
Speaker 2: back and forth, over and over, and then lightning pressure
Speaker 2: and really it's about a minute minute and a half
Speaker 2: of doing that on edge, and I'm typically able to
Speaker 2: shave hair again if it's if it's if it's been dulled,
Speaker 2: I guess more than that, then that's when I tip.
Speaker 2: I guess. The full proof kind of way to do it,
Speaker 2: I think is to remove the blade, clamp it up,
Speaker 2: clamp it into a knife sharpener or a broadhead jig,
Speaker 2: but you know, mark put a marker on the beveled edge,
Speaker 2: and then I like the knife sharpeners where you can
Speaker 2: set the angle and have flat stones so you can
Speaker 2: adjust the angle until just one light light kind of
Speaker 2: scrape against that stone is removing removing that marker that
Speaker 2: you put on all the way to the edge. So
Speaker 2: you know, you're kind of matching the babble cleaning up
Speaker 2: to the edge. And then you can you maybe just
Speaker 2: start with a with a fine and then extra fine,
Speaker 2: or if it's a bit more beat up, you might
Speaker 2: go medium fine, extra fine. But you're you're taking strokes
Speaker 2: on one side and then the other back and forth
Speaker 2: and kind of regrinding that edge all the way to
Speaker 2: the tip. As you can go to finer stones, you
Speaker 2: can get a finer, sharper edge, and you know, we
Speaker 2: can get in more details on this, but as you're
Speaker 2: as you're doing it, initially you want to clean up
Speaker 2: that edge to where you can feel a bird all
Speaker 2: along that edge coming out through the other side. That
Speaker 2: then you know, you clean up that full edge you
Speaker 2: and you're doing it back then on the on the
Speaker 2: other side to bring it back and then as you
Speaker 2: go to the finer stones, you're kind of working a smaller,
Speaker 2: smaller bird and then at the end it's it's you know,
Speaker 2: you're just taking a completely off and it's dead sharp.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like to use you know, I've had a
Speaker 1: few broadheads get to that point. A lot of times.
Speaker 1: I can just pick it up, you know, flip my
Speaker 1: thumb across it. It's still really sharp, good enough to
Speaker 1: to shoot another animal with. But yeah, when I get
Speaker 1: to that point, I don't remember the kind. But it's
Speaker 1: a work sharp that basically, you know, rotate your blade
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty. You can set the exact angle
Speaker 1: you want, So I just kind of look at the side,
Speaker 1: make sure that you know, yeah, I'm contacting the tip,
Speaker 1: but I'm almost so kind of maintaining that that angle,
Speaker 1: so I'm getting a real smooth and then just you know,
Speaker 1: run it down the blade. It holds it at the
Speaker 1: perfect you know, twenty two twenty two and a half
Speaker 1: whatever it may be for a double bevel or or
Speaker 1: you know, whatever that angle may be, and then yeah,
Speaker 1: you can touch them. It really good. I do notice that,
Speaker 1: like you know, the the sense you do get it
Speaker 1: to a hardness of sixty. Sometimes can be a little
Speaker 1: it more difficult than I would say, like a cheaper steel.
Speaker 1: To get that you have to work out a little
Speaker 1: bit more. But I I found that that that works
Speaker 1: sharp lets me get those things dialed right. Back in
Speaker 1: without removing too much material and kind of maintaining that
Speaker 1: angle really well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a two tool steel, so it's
Speaker 2: it's a steel used in metal stamping, dice to cut
Speaker 2: other metals, and it kind of has a unique ability
Speaker 2: to have great impact toughness and retain retain an edge
Speaker 2: in sharpness even when cutting through something like like metal.
Speaker 2: I'd say it's a it's a pretty workable steel since
Speaker 2: the tool steel it doesn't have. It's not like some
Speaker 2: super steels that have such hard carbide particles in it
Speaker 2: that that it's really difficult or you need special you know,
Speaker 2: stones or equipment to sharpen. I'd say it's it's definitely
Speaker 2: doable with with standard sharpening stones. But yeah we take
Speaker 2: a little bit more worked and say a soft you
Speaker 2: know four twenty.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, it's I know, it's not near as difficult
Speaker 1: as like the s thirty vs as ninety v's and
Speaker 1: stuff we used to try to sharpen. I'm like, man,
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I can't remember how to run
Speaker 1: a knife sharpener anymore because you'd sit and struggle with
Speaker 1: those and then you know, eventually figured out how to
Speaker 1: get those sharp again, but yeah, it's it's definitely easier
Speaker 1: than that, but maybe a little more work than than
Speaker 1: softer steels.
Speaker 2: So yes.
Speaker 1: The next question comes from Aja Doob. How much helical
Speaker 1: for a single bevel would you recommend?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of like two to three degrees. And
Speaker 2: this is part of the university study too. We were
Speaker 2: looking at with the high speed camera as the ear
Speaker 2: comes out of the bow and I'll click it, does
Speaker 2: it spin up? And then you know what's the maximum
Speaker 2: spin it gets down range? And so I mean I
Speaker 2: don't like zero to one degree. I mean zero definitely
Speaker 2: you're not getting any rotation. And the reason you want
Speaker 2: rotation in an arrow is it kind of averages out
Speaker 2: any asymmetries. You know, if your your insert or broadheads
Speaker 2: is pointing a little bit off to one side, and
Speaker 2: then as you shoot the arrow without rotation, it's just
Speaker 2: going to drive the arrow off to that direction, whereas
Speaker 2: if you have rotation, it might open up your groups
Speaker 2: a little bit, but it's going to keep it much
Speaker 2: closer to you know, on on the bullseye. So you
Speaker 2: want rotation, and I think two to three degrees is
Speaker 2: a pretty good amount. I think on a vein to
Speaker 2: relatively quickly spin that arrow up, so you get the
Speaker 2: accuracy advantages. But I don't really see a need to
Speaker 2: get a very high rotation. I don't I think at impact,
Speaker 2: you know, super high rotation, it seems could probably be
Speaker 2: a negative thing. But what I've tested from you know,
Speaker 2: I've tested like two and a half to three degree
Speaker 2: helical with our current single bubbles, and that seems to
Speaker 2: do a really good job. We've got high speed video
Speaker 2: on our YouTube channel actually of passing through a deer
Speaker 2: and you can see that that the arrow is rotating
Speaker 2: at impact and it just keeps rotating right through that animal,
Speaker 2: doesn't doesn't really doesn't miss a beat there. It's a
Speaker 2: single bubble head. So yeah, I like the two to
Speaker 2: three degree range for shooting really any fixed play broadhead,
Speaker 2: but definitely seems to work well with single bubbles too.
Speaker 1: And I'm going to piggyback on AJ's question. Some of
Speaker 1: the stuff I don't claim to be an expert on.
Speaker 1: I've shot helical, you know, right handed twist double bebble broadhead,
Speaker 1: so I haven't had to deal with a lot of this.
Speaker 1: But you know, single bubbles are sold left or right,
Speaker 1: twist right and then you've got the ability to helical
Speaker 1: left or right. But then you've also got the idea
Speaker 1: that it bo naturally wants to spin an arrow a
Speaker 1: certain direction. So we take those three things that could
Speaker 1: all work together, could work apart from each other, or
Speaker 1: you know, you could have two working in one direction,
Speaker 1: one and the other. What's your opinion on that should
Speaker 1: we go to? Because it's something I've never thought of,
Speaker 1: nothing I've ever went through. You know, when when I
Speaker 1: was grown up bow hunting, it was always about you
Speaker 1: don't want to spin the arrow so that it wants
Speaker 1: to loosen your broadhead, you know, or the feral from
Speaker 1: the insert and so you always, you know, everything spun
Speaker 1: to the you know, you wanted the erro spin to
Speaker 1: the right, kind of kept your broad head locked in.
Speaker 1: What's your take? Your opinion? Is there any research that
Speaker 1: supports those things should all match? How do we figure
Speaker 1: it out? I know it's it's a lot all one question,
Speaker 1: but if you can kind of elaborate on that whole idea, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I think the I think the important thing or the
Speaker 2: most important thing if you're going to shoot single bubble,
Speaker 2: is that your your veins in your bubble match you know,
Speaker 2: you want that errow rotation as it hits the animal
Speaker 2: to continue in that direction. So and I think you
Speaker 2: can do I'd say do two to three degree offset
Speaker 2: or helical and if you're doing right offset or hehlicle,
Speaker 2: then do a right single bubble. If you're doing left
Speaker 2: offset or heelicle, just do left single bebble because you
Speaker 2: want that. You want that rotational momentum that's providing some
Speaker 2: of the torque to go through the animal, which which
Speaker 2: is kind of needed with single bubbl. You know, a
Speaker 2: single bubbel, all that pressure on that bebbl causes the
Speaker 2: rotation as you go through the animal. But you don't
Speaker 2: want it to like stop that rotation and have to
Speaker 2: change the direction and go back to way. They lose
Speaker 2: energy and penetration there. So that's the most important part
Speaker 2: of this whole thing. The other question is really the
Speaker 2: kind of the clocking they call it on the bow
Speaker 2: or if you shoot a bear shit aft out of
Speaker 2: your bow, which way is that arrow going to rotate?
Speaker 2: And this isn't really done by design. I mean, ideally
Speaker 2: the arrow would just come straight out of a bow.
Speaker 2: You know, the bow manufacturers aren't doing something in particular
Speaker 2: to make it rotate left or right. There's just kind
Speaker 2: of an imbalanced force on it that might go left
Speaker 2: or right, and generally that's due to the string twist
Speaker 2: and the serving and how that NOx just kind of
Speaker 2: releases from it. I first heard about this maybe twelve
Speaker 2: years ago or so, and I when I first tested
Speaker 2: on my boat at that time, I was getting like
Speaker 2: a quarter inch rotation left over twelve feet. Well, I
Speaker 2: knew from high speed video that my era was getting
Speaker 2: like a full rotation right in like ten inches or
Speaker 2: something from the veins when they're at two and a
Speaker 2: half to three degrees. So, and you know from engineering
Speaker 2: some of the torque sequels I alpha, it's you know
Speaker 2: that rotational, rotational, you know, angular acceleration. I guess, so
Speaker 2: to me, like that little bit of torque left and
Speaker 2: all this torque right from the vein, don't worry about it.
Speaker 2: That was kind of my initial thoughts on it, and
Speaker 2: I've still kind of tell people in general it's that
Speaker 2: it's not the big of a factor. I mean, if
Speaker 2: you want to really dig into the details and the weeds,
Speaker 2: I mean, I do see with high speed video that
Speaker 2: if the boat tends to want to make it rotate
Speaker 2: a lobal left, there's a little bit more of a
Speaker 2: hesitation there before the rate rotation starts. So I'm not
Speaker 2: going to say that doesn't matter at all, but I'm
Speaker 2: not I'm not so sure that it. I don't think
Speaker 2: it probably matters a whole lot in accuracy, at least
Speaker 2: not for the average guy. And I'm not even sure
Speaker 2: for the pros. You know, I've talked to pros it
Speaker 2: started doing it, but they said they don't really seeing
Speaker 2: a difference in accuracy. So I'm a bit on the
Speaker 2: fence on that whole thing. But it's it's one of
Speaker 2: those details that there's a lot of other things to
Speaker 2: worry about, bigger factors than that.
Speaker 1: Yep. All, Yeah, thanks for diving into that one for me.
Speaker 1: So the next question comes from Ryan Randall, are there
Speaker 1: any plans for a traditional three or four blade head
Speaker 1: in iron Mold's future?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Good question. You know, are two blade with bleeders
Speaker 2: is basically a four blade with with an advantage. I
Speaker 2: think sitting there putting that bleeder back away from the
Speaker 2: tip is an improvement for splitting splitting bone for instance,
Speaker 2: if you're and it's really why I like a two
Speaker 2: blade with bleeds over a three blade as well. If
Speaker 2: you think about hitting a scalpula with a two blade head,
Speaker 2: it just has to make one split through it, and
Speaker 2: that takes quite a bit less force than like a
Speaker 2: three blade, where you're splitting in three different directions at once.
Speaker 2: It's a lot more force, and we've got some force
Speaker 2: testing data on our website that shows this. But just
Speaker 2: pushing down through hide muscle and scalpula with our two
Speaker 2: blade with bleeds versus a three blade, I think our
Speaker 2: force was I think the force was like five times
Speaker 2: as much with that three blade trying to make that
Speaker 2: split out three ways. And I hear about this all
Speaker 2: the time, people shooting a three blade head into scalpula
Speaker 2: on an elk and not penetrating through, where artist penetrates
Speaker 2: very easily through. So well, I ever make a three blade,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm I might. I considered it. You know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that are just stuck on
Speaker 2: shooting three blade heads and want me to make a
Speaker 2: better one, and so I might, But I actually think
Speaker 2: a two blade with bleeders is a is a better
Speaker 2: option for still getting a nice entrance exit hole cutting
Speaker 2: a similar number of similar amount of tissue. If you
Speaker 2: look at the total cut, we yet penetrates bone and
Speaker 2: hide and everything else much better.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm in agreement there. You know, the the
Speaker 1: only advantage I ever saw to a three blade was
Speaker 1: the idea that that hole may not you know, it
Speaker 1: may stay more open. But I think we still accomplish that.
Speaker 1: Like you said, the tension from the center of that
Speaker 1: whole on a four blade does the same thing. It
Speaker 1: kind of keeps that whole open. But then you know
Speaker 1: people have talked about well, you know, just basically two
Speaker 1: two blades crossing, they can still close, but I agree
Speaker 1: you kind of get that that middle open. So yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks for thanks for taking that one on. And now
Speaker 1: the last question, and you know, the question we had
Speaker 1: got from a few guys is why are they so expensive?
Speaker 1: And I'd like to rearrange this question, ask you why
Speaker 1: are iron wills worth what you charge for them? And
Speaker 1: you know, if you can go through the manufacturing process
Speaker 1: QAQC materials, finishing, hardening, all of that and kind of
Speaker 1: give us a look into why these broadheads you know,
Speaker 1: cost what they cost.
Speaker 2: Yeah, good, good question. You know, when I first had
Speaker 2: a broadhead fail on an ELK shoulder blade in two
Speaker 2: thousand and four, and it's pretty devastating for me at
Speaker 2: the time. And you know, as a mechanical engineer, had
Speaker 2: developed products for other companies for many years at a
Speaker 2: high level, and then I took a look at this broadhead,
Speaker 2: you know, really critically and decided quickly that this thing's junk,
Speaker 2: it's prone to failure. And I really just decided, well,
Speaker 2: I first, you know, research and test a lot of
Speaker 2: other heads out there, but then at the end decided
Speaker 2: to really just start from scratch and not think about
Speaker 2: low cost manufacturing, but think about how can I get
Speaker 2: the highest possible performance out of this broadhead to for
Speaker 2: sure get to an ELK, should bone get through the vitals,
Speaker 2: make that a successful hunt instead of you know, a heartbreak.
Speaker 2: And you know, I'd also had a background when I
Speaker 2: when I first graduated from engineering school, I went to
Speaker 2: work for three M company at the time with development engineers.
Speaker 2: They'd have you spend like twenty percent of your time
Speaker 2: on a technology development project. And coming out of school,
Speaker 2: I kind of had an emphasis in kind of mechanical design,
Speaker 2: machine design, but then also advanced material materials engineering and
Speaker 2: steals in particular. So the technology development. Program they gave
Speaker 2: me was tooling development, tooling technology development for the corporation.
Speaker 2: So I was digging heavily into steels, tool steels, heat treats, codings,
Speaker 2: you know, other things to try and improve tools that
Speaker 2: we're doing, you know, cutting materials, cutting metals, you know,
Speaker 2: really kind of all the different tooling things that are
Speaker 2: used in big manufacturing corporation. So you know, I dug
Speaker 2: deep into the steels, worked with different steel suppliers and
Speaker 2: things like that, so I had that background as well,
Speaker 2: so you know, I just knew there was that. You know,
Speaker 2: most of the blades out there were using like a
Speaker 2: four to twenty stainless steel, which is not really even
Speaker 2: a good blade steal. It's it's kind of a nice
Speaker 2: compromise of being very cheap and doing doing okay. But anyway,
Speaker 2: I went through five different steels before I settled on
Speaker 2: a two tool steel. I used S seven as well,
Speaker 2: which is a great impact steel, and really they're both
Speaker 2: used in metal stamping, dies and punches. S seven is
Speaker 2: generally used to punch or form metal. A two is
Speaker 2: often used if you're going to cut metal. And so
Speaker 2: even though I liked S seven and used it, for
Speaker 2: a couple of years in development. I say A two
Speaker 2: is kind of a better because I could get it harder, sharper,
Speaker 2: retain the edge better anyway, and that you know, I
Speaker 2: process it like you would a high end knife blade.
Speaker 2: We start with you know, steel plate, blank that out.
Speaker 2: We do SENC machining, multi stage grinding, honing. We do
Speaker 2: a heat treat process that includes a cryogenic treatment and
Speaker 2: triple tempering to just get the best possible we can
Speaker 2: geek out of why do that? But you do just
Speaker 2: cryogenic treatment. You make sure all the you know, it's
Speaker 2: basically making sure the microstructure is perfectly you know, changed
Speaker 2: goes from austinite to martinsite and it's a very hard
Speaker 2: dense structure and to make sure it's all uniform, and
Speaker 2: then the tempering has the toughness. Anyway, we spent a
Speaker 2: year just working on the heat treat once we chose
Speaker 2: the steel, and so all these steps in that process,
Speaker 2: you know, add cost versus typical blades are they're done
Speaker 2: on a real real there's a reel of metal coming
Speaker 2: in one side, and you can do that when blades
Speaker 2: are you know, twenty thirty maybe even thirty five, forty
Speaker 2: thouve thick. You can just have a roll of steel
Speaker 2: coming into a stamping machine to where it's feeding through
Speaker 2: on a strip it's stamped, and a lot of these
Speaker 2: machines they grind it right, they servent right there too.
Speaker 2: They stand up run through a one side grinder, you know,
Speaker 2: it comes off the other side of the machine. And
Speaker 2: these parts cost. These blades cause dimes to make versus
Speaker 2: dollars to make. So anyway, that's kind of why ours
Speaker 2: more expensive, and that's you know, kind of explain the
Speaker 2: blades are farls. We use a Grade five titanium for
Speaker 2: our lighter heads, and that's really the best strength to
Speaker 2: weight ratio of any metal. So I think that's the
Speaker 2: best metal to use on a Farrell on say one
Speaker 2: hundred grand head. We used on a summer one hundred
Speaker 2: hundred twenty five grand heads when you really want the
Speaker 2: best strength to weight ratio. And then as we go
Speaker 2: to our heavier weights, we use a hardened steel, which
Speaker 2: is you know, you can all steels aren't created equal.
Speaker 2: Most steel, you know, all steel, say ferals. Our heads
Speaker 2: out there are generally three oh through a two stainless,
Speaker 2: which is not hardened. You can harden. You can use
Speaker 2: martin ciitic steel, harden it and get strength. It's you know,
Speaker 2: maybe three two to three times the strength of those
Speaker 2: austinitic you know, three hundred serious steels. So we actually
Speaker 2: harden them and machine them in the hardened state. So
Speaker 2: it requires that we machine them slower. It takes longer
Speaker 2: to machine and the material costs more. So that's why
Speaker 2: those costs more as well. But we can get very
Speaker 2: precise there's no distortion or discoloration from a later heat
Speaker 2: treat and it's really it's really kind of the best
Speaker 2: way to make the parts that you can. And I'm
Speaker 2: all about performance. I'm a development engineer, and I want
Speaker 2: to use the best process to make the best product,
Speaker 2: and you know, kind of let the cost fall where
Speaker 2: they do. And that's really why why I broadhads cost
Speaker 2: quite a bit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I'm the same way. You know
Speaker 1: sometimes with our calls. You know, it's like, let's just
Speaker 1: design the best call we can and roll up the
Speaker 1: cost of goods and figure out where that thing needs
Speaker 1: to be to be profitable, you know, and that's we
Speaker 1: let that lead a lot of our projects. But yeah,
Speaker 1: for me, you know, and and not to over dramatize it.
Speaker 1: But you know, we spend not trying to justify you
Speaker 1: just you basically gave us the reason on the price.
Speaker 1: But for me as a user of your product, uh,
Speaker 1: you know, you spend all year for the most part planning, thinking,
Speaker 1: you know, setting up for these hunts. You know, you're
Speaker 1: you're one or two archery all counts because you're only
Speaker 1: you know, maybe three max. The squeezes in. You know,
Speaker 1: you drive potentially all over the country, you drive across
Speaker 1: your state, or you drive you know, you're driving into
Speaker 1: your unit and you've bought knew this or that. Like
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, like do I want
Speaker 1: to risk the chance that you know, when I'm at
Speaker 1: full draw knowing you know, the last thing I want
Speaker 1: to think about is if you know, this broadhead going
Speaker 1: to perform or if I make a slightly less than
Speaker 1: perfect shot, like is it you am I still covered?
Speaker 1: Like is the broadhead going to be?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: And for me, it's a it's easy just to like
Speaker 1: a peace of mind knowing that I've got the best,
Speaker 1: the best broadhead that I've been able to find, you know,
Speaker 1: on the tip of my arrow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. You know, all the all
Speaker 2: the effort, all the work you know, to be a
Speaker 2: bow hunter. There's there's a lot of preparation and work
Speaker 2: that goes into into it. And when you when that
Speaker 2: shot happens on that animal that walks out, and maybe
Speaker 2: it's the biggest enemy you've seen or whatever, but when
Speaker 2: that animal walks out, what piece of gears matter the most? Well,
Speaker 2: at that point, it's having good aeroflight and then having
Speaker 2: your broadhead perform, you know, on impact. So it's you know,
Speaker 2: our heads are probably twenty bucks more per head than
Speaker 2: the things you're going to pick up at a department store.
Speaker 2: But it's yeah, to me, it's is is worth it
Speaker 2: at that moment of truth there get that animal and
Speaker 2: have the best chance for success. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well that that kind of wraps up the listener questions here.
Speaker 1: I appreciate everybody over is September yet sending us questions,
Speaker 1: and so once again you have questions of your own,
Speaker 1: email them to us at CTD at phelpsgame Calls dot com,
Speaker 1: or send us a social message in we'll do our
Speaker 1: best to include them for me or my guests. So
Speaker 1: now we're going to jump into kind of my discussion.
Speaker 1: I wanted to have with you Bill, you know, on
Speaker 1: cutting the distance. We're all about tips and tactics, and
Speaker 1: I think it's important to kind of, you know, and
Speaker 1: to become successful. But I believe it's easy to kind
Speaker 1: of roll broadheads into you know, finding success and you know,
Speaker 1: being able to you know, technical data surrounds them, you know,
Speaker 1: the lethality of the broadheads. And so yeah, glad, glad
Speaker 1: to have you on here. I got a few of
Speaker 1: my own, and I love when things are based on
Speaker 1: science and data. You know, we're coming off a few
Speaker 1: interviews with biologists, Like I just love being able to
Speaker 1: look at the data and and you know, figure out
Speaker 1: does this correlate with what I've seen? Are their anomalies?
Speaker 1: Are there reasons why what I've seen are different than
Speaker 1: the data? And just like let the chips follow where
Speaker 1: they do, and you know, go with that. But you are,
Speaker 1: you know, similar to me. We've got the engineering side,
Speaker 1: but then we go out and test all of our products,
Speaker 1: and I want to see those real world results that
Speaker 1: support back up what's found and you know, and what
Speaker 1: I believe what I've been able to find, and I
Speaker 1: think you and what you're doing with Iron will broadheads
Speaker 1: kind of you know, encapsulates that whole idea. You know,
Speaker 1: design the best broadheads on paper, do a bunch of testing,
Speaker 1: and then go out and confirm them on animals. So yeah,
Speaker 1: I you know, gonna gonna jump into our conversation with
Speaker 1: you here. So can we dive a little deeper into
Speaker 1: your work that you're doing with the University of Colorado.
Speaker 1: You know, I think there's a lot of just generalities
Speaker 1: or ideas that have you know, come from many many
Speaker 1: years of bow shop owners or in industry stuff, but
Speaker 1: you're actually going back and kind of proving that or
Speaker 1: you know, coming up with data that supports that. So
Speaker 1: give us a little bit of what you're you know
Speaker 1: doing at the University of Colorado. You know, you've got
Speaker 1: new veins that you're looking at, new arrow setups. Kind
Speaker 1: of give us the full rundown of of you know,
Speaker 1: lab testing and new products.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so to give you a little background there. You know,
Speaker 2: I develop products for the companies for many years, and
Speaker 2: I was always seeking out the best you know, engineering
Speaker 2: tools really, whether it was computer modeling, instrumentation, you know,
Speaker 2: high speed camera accelerometers, just whatever kind of instrumentation, you know,
Speaker 2: analysis tools, really kind of the best engineering tools and
Speaker 2: applying them to improve products. You know, engineering is really
Speaker 2: applying science to you know, solve problems or develop better products.
Speaker 2: But at the companies I work for, I always you know,
Speaker 2: really drove highest level engineering improvements. And through years of
Speaker 2: doing that, I was leading engineering teams and you know
Speaker 2: really kind of mentoring and driving other people to do
Speaker 2: the you know, apply science, do the analysis, but then
Speaker 2: also do some lab testing to kind of prove that
Speaker 2: you know, computer mo model is accurate and this what
Speaker 2: you know, the annalys shows will be an improvement actually
Speaker 2: does make an improvement. And then in the final you know,
Speaker 2: final assembly testing, you know, prove out that you did
Speaker 2: make make it better. And so you know, I was involved,
Speaker 2: you know, in different companies doing that. And then companies
Speaker 2: I worked for started sponsoring university projects and then I
Speaker 2: was placed as kind of the company you know, industry
Speaker 2: client over those projects. And then about eight years ago,
Speaker 2: the university asked me to be one of the faculty directors.
Speaker 2: So I became adjoint instructor of Mechanical Engineering and it
Speaker 2: was one of the faculty directors for the Senior Design
Speaker 2: Project for Mechanical Engineering and that's a year long project
Speaker 2: where seniors mechanical engineering are required to do it, but
Speaker 2: they take an industry project and spend the year doing
Speaker 2: you know, analysis, design, analysis, prototyping, testing, you know, iterating,
Speaker 2: bring it, bring it to manufacturing typically. So I've been
Speaker 2: you know, teaching students kind of best practices for mechanical
Speaker 2: engineering and trying trying to kind of bridge that gap
Speaker 2: between Okay, you have all the school knowledge and you
Speaker 2: know all the tests, you've taken, all the information is there.
Speaker 2: Now how do you solve the problem and you have
Speaker 2: all the information that's generally what happens in the university
Speaker 2: tests to where you get in the real world and
Speaker 2: develop a project and all the information isn't given to you.
Speaker 2: You have to figure out what is a science here,
Speaker 2: what is a physics? How can I apply it? How
Speaker 2: can I analyze it? Test it? So, you know, I've
Speaker 2: been teaching students to do that, and then this past year,
Speaker 2: I finally I got approval from the university to both
Speaker 2: direct and sponsored projects. So iron Wellfater is just sponsoring
Speaker 2: a sponsored project on improved aero van design for bow hunting,
Speaker 2: you know, with fixed play broad hits on the front.
Speaker 2: So it's been a great project. You know. It was
Speaker 2: five seniors in mechanical engineering that had no background in
Speaker 2: you know, archery or hunting, which I kind of like
Speaker 2: they come into it with with no you know, preconceived
Speaker 2: ideas of what works or doesn't work. They're just using designing, analyzing,
Speaker 2: collecting data and really kind of making day in the
Speaker 2: driven you know, decisions or showing the results based on that.
Speaker 2: So this past year we tested six of what I
Speaker 2: considered kind of the top hunting veins in the industry.
Speaker 2: Did you know a CAD model of those at a
Speaker 2: three degree here local on the arrow with the ironld
Speaker 2: broad heads on the front. Did a fluidynamic model, so
Speaker 2: it's really very sophisticated. One has you know, airflow gone
Speaker 2: over the arrow even as it's rotating through the air.
Speaker 2: We were able to model that we're looking at, We're
Speaker 2: looking at really accuracy, stability, wind drift, drag and sound
Speaker 2: from that. So we can we can we can model
Speaker 2: all that here. We can and if I said, spin
Speaker 2: up as well, so we can kind of model that
Speaker 2: how these different veins will do a better job of
Speaker 2: that than the other. You know, we tip, we can
Speaker 2: tip the angle let's say five degrees to the wind,
Speaker 2: like as if it's coming out of your bow and
Speaker 2: your bos little untuned, and we can see what is
Speaker 2: the restoring torque that quickly brings that arrow back back
Speaker 2: on track to get it straight at the target. And
Speaker 2: so we studied six of the veins in the industry
Speaker 2: and then studied some different prototype veins. But we took
Speaker 2: it from the analytical computer modeling to then also to
Speaker 2: do the empirical testing, the actual testing with a shooting
Speaker 2: machine using a high speed camera to kind of vary
Speaker 2: to verify the spin up and then the stabilizing and
Speaker 2: then the max and then the max rotation. We used
Speaker 2: lab radar to look at the velocity from the bow
Speaker 2: to the target to verify the drag and the drop
Speaker 2: that we calculated through the model. We had this very
Speaker 2: sophisticated sound recording system placed out there that was recording
Speaker 2: the sound with these omnidirectional microphones, and then we analyze
Speaker 2: that through through Matt Labs, so we could look at
Speaker 2: the frequency content and we looked at you know, the
Speaker 2: frequency kind of peak range for humans, which I think
Speaker 2: was two to four killer herds and then also animals
Speaker 2: which I believe was four to eight kill herts. So
Speaker 2: we said, okay, is this arrow sound you know, errow
Speaker 2: broadhead vein combination sound loud to a person, and also
Speaker 2: does it sound loud to an animal? Is it more
Speaker 2: likely to make an animal react or not? So we
Speaker 2: took all that data. We just kind of finished up
Speaker 2: the project. We're planning to put out some kind of
Speaker 2: white papers to summarize that. But that's that's kind of
Speaker 2: just the overview of the project. And really the reason
Speaker 2: I wanted to sponsor that is I feel like with
Speaker 2: the broadhead development, I have a broadhead now that is
Speaker 2: you know, penetrating really well through high bone. It's getting
Speaker 2: in that pass through. And some people, a lot of people,
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say a lot, but some people their problem
Speaker 2: with shooting fixed plate heads is that they struggle to
Speaker 2: get good aeroflight with fixed blade heads. So I wanted
Speaker 2: to dig more into the science there and kind of
Speaker 2: be able to show people, hey, you can definitely get
Speaker 2: create long ra in flight with fixed plate heads. You
Speaker 2: just need to do a few things here, you know,
Speaker 2: get some rotationary arrow tunebo the right veins on the
Speaker 2: back and you're good.
Speaker 1: Gotcha? Yeah, I like it and see what I'm excited
Speaker 1: to see what comes out on that white paper and
Speaker 1: if it changes anything that we we think is right
Speaker 1: as of right now. My next question for you is
Speaker 1: what's your opinion on FOC. Did we did the pendulum
Speaker 1: swing too far? Doesn't matter? You know, we we've went
Speaker 1: to this, you know, all your weight in the first
Speaker 1: two inches, Like, just give me your take on that
Speaker 1: and what you've found or what your your opinion is
Speaker 1: on if there's a compromise where where we don't have
Speaker 1: to chase these huge FOC numbers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think there's any I don't think there's
Speaker 2: any science that would show that extreme FOC would would
Speaker 2: be a significant increase in penetration. If you I mean
Speaker 2: the science and the math, the physics and the math
Speaker 2: there is that mass is that momentum is going to
Speaker 2: equal force time's time change of momentum of legal force
Speaker 2: times time. Momentum is a is a vector quantity, so
Speaker 2: as a direction and momentum is mass times velocity. So
Speaker 2: really the way to to maximize your penetration is to
Speaker 2: maximize that mass times velocity industry line, so having good
Speaker 2: aerowflight so that your arrow is going straight as it
Speaker 2: impacts the animal, and then you know have that increased
Speaker 2: mass and or velocity can give you that totally increased
Speaker 2: mass times totally increased momentum at impact. It's going to
Speaker 2: translate into how much force can that really aerosystem apply
Speaker 2: as it cuts through and for how long? So it's
Speaker 2: that product enforced time's time. So there's no FOC that
Speaker 2: in the math of the physics. There there's no center
Speaker 2: of mass in that calculation. I think it only comes
Speaker 2: into effect if it's somehow changing how how well your
Speaker 2: arrow is flying or what it's doing at impact. So
Speaker 2: I think the advantages with FOC the improved stability. As
Speaker 2: you move your center mass a bit forward, you're going
Speaker 2: to prove your stability. But I personally don't go to
Speaker 2: any extreme tames. I think, say twelve to fifteen sixteen
Speaker 2: percent is great. I've seen excellent penetration. My aero setups
Speaker 2: are usually in that twelve to fifteen percent range, and
Speaker 2: I can tell you throwing my testing with the right
Speaker 2: broadhead on the front, you have excellent penetration. So I
Speaker 2: don't see a need for this extremefoc. The physics doesn't
Speaker 2: really justify that, you know, I think that doctor ed
Speaker 2: Ashby's testing I've talked to him about this. He saw
Speaker 2: now going from a nineteen to twenty two percent FOC,
Speaker 2: saw thirty percent improvement and penetration. I really think that's
Speaker 2: because he's shooting a longbow at close range and there's
Speaker 2: a lot of flexing in that row, and it probably
Speaker 2: improved his aeroflight or how straight that arrow was on impact,
Speaker 2: and that was probably majority of the factor for penetration.
Speaker 2: I think it's it's unfortunate. I think a lot of
Speaker 2: people have tried to apply that to modern compound bows,
Speaker 2: and the negative that they do is to try and
Speaker 2: get extreme foc. They're often underspined, but a lot of
Speaker 2: mass out in front, and you don't have the arrow
Speaker 2: stiffness to support it. You get massive flexing back and forth.
Speaker 2: And I see this on YouTube videos of people that
Speaker 2: are extreme foc, you know, advocates. You can see in
Speaker 2: their aerowflight it's that thing's flexing back and forth like crazy.
Speaker 2: And in my arrow setups, I may be getting like
Speaker 2: a half inch a vertical flex of the arrow, and
Speaker 2: then it's it's almost going perfectly straight, you know. Ten
Speaker 2: feet later, I don't. I don't have that massive flexing
Speaker 2: back and forth all the way to the target that's
Speaker 2: going to reduce penetration because of a mentum. It's not
Speaker 2: in a straight line anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definite, No, I'm in that same camp. And you know,
Speaker 1: and then you're like, all right, well mass is included,
Speaker 1: so do I just go to a heavy arrow? But
Speaker 1: then you're once again, if you're chasing heavy arrow and
Speaker 1: foc you end up with an underspined arrow or you
Speaker 1: end up with you know, yeah, you end up with
Speaker 1: a heavy weight. But now you're you've just given up velocity,
Speaker 1: which all calculates back in the you know, it's really
Speaker 1: just a trade off, and that's where you look at it.
Speaker 1: And then you also factor in what you saw from
Speaker 1: you know, maybe some of the female bow hunters you've
Speaker 1: hunted with that got perfect pass through? Is it fifty
Speaker 1: two you know pounds in a four hundred and twenty
Speaker 1: grain arrow or whatever it is, And you're like, well,
Speaker 1: what am I doing as a as a guy shooting
Speaker 1: a you know, a seventy two pound bow in full
Speaker 1: length arrows five hundred and sixty grain. It's like does
Speaker 1: it does it all matter? Or do we just need
Speaker 1: to be able to shoot our bows better, you know,
Speaker 1: and it hit the animal right where we want. And
Speaker 1: you know, I build my arrows somewhat backwards and I
Speaker 1: fall into that same twelve to fifteen percent foc like
Speaker 1: you do, just kind of naturally. I've got a fairly
Speaker 1: long draw. I shoot full length thirty two inch arrows,
Speaker 1: and then I just kind of keep stuff and weight
Speaker 1: in the front until I get my bow to what
Speaker 1: it says on paper is going to shoot about two
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty to two hundred and eighty five feet
Speaker 1: per second, and just confirm that I'm spined right, and
Speaker 1: then I move on. You know, I'm not chasing a weight.
Speaker 1: I'm chasing more of a speed. What does that weight
Speaker 1: and that tip weight you got to do? And then
Speaker 1: make sure my spine is still, you know, is correct,
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to be you know, under overspined
Speaker 1: and just kind of leave it there, like I build
Speaker 1: backwards to a speed that I like to shoot, and
Speaker 1: don't chase foc or a crazy weighted arrow, you know,
Speaker 1: just just by my size, I end up with a
Speaker 1: five hundred and fifty to five hundred and sixty grein arrow,
Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's just because of the thirty
Speaker 1: two inch draw length and heavy arrows.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely a trade up there as you increase
Speaker 2: the mass or trajectory drops off, and so people ask me,
Speaker 2: you know, what what weight should I go with to
Speaker 2: maximize penetration. Well, I think you do continue to see
Speaker 2: improvements with penetration with mass especially, And you know, the
Speaker 2: technical reason for this, I think is because as an
Speaker 2: animal tissue and everything probably asks the like visco elastic material,
Speaker 2: where it's like, as you increase that shear rate, it
Speaker 2: takes more four So a light fast arrow is going
Speaker 2: to take more force to go through at that higher speed,
Speaker 2: and it's going to slow down easier because there's light
Speaker 2: versus versus a heavier arrow, and so but it's it's
Speaker 2: not a huge of a factor. So I think I
Speaker 2: kind of calculated in my setup. I thought one hundred grains, say,
Speaker 2: going from four to fifty to five point fifty might
Speaker 2: be a maybe a ten percent improvement and penetration maybe
Speaker 2: not quite that much really, but but then there's a
Speaker 2: drop off in trajectory as well, and that's why I'm
Speaker 2: typically end up around five hundred grains. But It's why
Speaker 2: I'm not going six hundred plus because I just get
Speaker 2: way too much drop off in the trajectory. And having
Speaker 2: good arrow flight and hitting where you're aiming are really
Speaker 2: number one for sure. As far as where to put
Speaker 2: the weight, yeah, upfront's better than putting it. You don't
Speaker 2: really want to put it at the back. And upfront's
Speaker 2: better than having just a heavy arrow with a light
Speaker 2: light head up front. You know, I wouldn't go with
Speaker 2: the heavy arrow and then I have only have one
Speaker 2: hundred grains or one one sixteen up front, like some
Speaker 2: people will do with just an aluminum insert in a
Speaker 2: hundred grade head, and then your FOC's down at ten
Speaker 2: percent or below, I think, I think, say, you know,
Speaker 2: the recommendations out there in the industry are maybe ten
Speaker 2: to twelve percent for target setups and like tell to
Speaker 2: fourteen for hunting aeroseeps. I think that's what like Easton
Speaker 2: has said before, I don't like going all the way
Speaker 2: down to ten or below. You add the possibility for
Speaker 2: instability you to fix it light had So that's really
Speaker 2: the reason for having some mass up front and having
Speaker 2: a decent FOC. But there's no need to go extreme
Speaker 2: in my opinion, it's more likely to hurt aeroflight in trajectory.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this kind of segue kind of plays offul. We're
Speaker 1: just talking about do you have much research on, you know,
Speaker 1: the cutting diameter in relation to penetration. And one thing
Speaker 1: I've always did which surprises some people, I just shoot
Speaker 1: a hundred grain solid head. I want the smallest cutting
Speaker 1: diameter as possible. Now, I want that broadhead to be
Speaker 1: sharp and do all the other things, but I've always
Speaker 1: in my head just added weight to my insert or
Speaker 1: whatnot because I wanted the ultimate penetration. As I mentioned earlier,
Speaker 1: I've always been in that camp that I want a
Speaker 1: hole on both sides. I also, if I do encounterbone,
Speaker 1: I've always thought that a one inch cutting diameter is
Speaker 1: easier to push you that bone than an echine, you know,
Speaker 1: an eighth or an inch and a quarter. Do you
Speaker 1: have any data on cutting diameter in relation to penetration
Speaker 1: And if my thought process is right or if it's incorrect.
Speaker 2: Well, I totally agree with you that getting that exit
Speaker 2: holes is important, and you know, cutting all the way
Speaker 2: through the exit hole. And I like to shoot our
Speaker 2: standard with heads on ELK they have like an inch
Speaker 2: and sixteenth main blade three quarter inch pleter. It's one
Speaker 2: point eight inches total cut, but it's relatively compact and
Speaker 2: FLI as well at long range, and that's that's generally
Speaker 2: my elk head. And you know, I'm zipping right through
Speaker 2: that it takes such low force to cut through with
Speaker 2: their heads that often they're going twenty yards and looking
Speaker 2: around or sometimes not even moving. You know, it's zipping through,
Speaker 2: and they're dying quickly if with the right shot placement.
Speaker 2: So I don't really see a need to go with
Speaker 2: bigger heads. And for years I kind of fought it,
Speaker 2: and then we had enough people that really just wanted
Speaker 2: a wider head for white tails, bears, things where the
Speaker 2: shots are closer and long range flight isn't so important,
Speaker 2: and just to get a bigger hole. When I first
Speaker 2: started making those and doing all the lab testing, I
Speaker 2: expected to see a higher quite a bit higher force
Speaker 2: to penetrate with the wider blades, and I was a
Speaker 2: bit surprised that I don't measure much difference, and it's
Speaker 2: really kind of helped reinforce. What I learned prior is
Speaker 2: that sharpness and edge retension are huge factors in the force.
Speaker 2: It takes to penetrate, especially in high and you know,
Speaker 2: muscle and tissue, but it seems to be in scoplics
Speaker 2: gapula as well. Now I might say, if you know, bigger,
Speaker 2: heavier bone I do, you probably gonna have less force
Speaker 2: to cut through Without my head, it's not quite so wide.
Speaker 2: But if I just measure the force to go through,
Speaker 2: see it through say hide muscle and like thin part
Speaker 2: of scapula. Man, I have a hard time measuring a
Speaker 2: difference between our standard head and our wide which is
Speaker 2: inch and three. It's wide main blade three quarter inch
Speaker 2: plater for two hundred eighth inch total cut. So I've
Speaker 2: kind of changed my thinking a little bit, and I
Speaker 2: don't see any problem with using that head on you know,
Speaker 2: deer and elk. I use it a lot, but I
Speaker 2: also start using it on elk when I have a
Speaker 2: setup where it might be over water or I know
Speaker 2: the shot is going to be relatively close. It penetrates,
Speaker 2: you know. I put one through a bowl last year,
Speaker 2: exited the opposite side shoulder bone, and then buried into
Speaker 2: a log eight inches on the other side of the elk.
Speaker 2: So even though it's wide, it went through. You know,
Speaker 2: it wasn't the thin part, it wasn't the knuckle. It
Speaker 2: was kind of in between part of the shoulder bone.
Speaker 2: But it really slow down. I think once the tip
Speaker 2: starts cutting away and maybe I'm on bone split it's
Speaker 2: kind of split that far ready and maybe on the
Speaker 2: highe and once you start cutting it doesn't take that
Speaker 2: much to keep cutting it a little wider. But I
Speaker 2: do think in general in the industry, if you look
Speaker 2: at broadheads beyond ours, you know, the more cutting, the
Speaker 2: wider cutting you do, takes more force, it is probably
Speaker 2: going to give you less penetration in general.
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Yeah, that's okay, perfect, That's kind of what I thought.
Speaker 1: But it's that it's that idea that it's gonna in
Speaker 1: my head it's gonna work if I hit it in
Speaker 1: the right spot and don't go through heavy bone. The
Speaker 1: one inch is still or the one in sixteenth is
Speaker 1: still going to do its job. But for the the
Speaker 1: you know, and I've went through you know, right through
Speaker 1: the middle of the scapula before and broke through. But
Speaker 1: it's that instance I maybe have to go through there
Speaker 1: or I miss just a little bit and go through there.
Speaker 1: I feel like it just gives me a little more
Speaker 1: margin of error, but you know, as you're saying, maybe
Speaker 1: maybe not as much as we thought due to the
Speaker 1: you know, the construction of the tip and how everything's
Speaker 1: working on those iron wheels.
Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I'd point out too, is it our
Speaker 2: newest head now is a is a wide, single bebble
Speaker 2: head that we've had a lot of people asking us for.
Speaker 2: I've been testing that over last year, and just a
Speaker 2: few weeks ago I was in Texas hunting hogs with it,
Speaker 2: and one hog, you know, kind of a older bore
Speaker 2: that I shot a little further forward than I intended to.
Speaker 2: It was a forty yard shot or some leaves covered
Speaker 2: his head and I ended up shooting too far forward.
Speaker 2: I went right to the knuckle on that hog, and
Speaker 2: that was probably two and a half inches of solid bone,
Speaker 2: and it was a loud crack, and I thought, oh no,
Speaker 2: I had something really hard. This would be a real
Speaker 2: test for that wider, wide single bubble that's trying to
Speaker 2: rotate you know, through the bone too. But it made
Speaker 2: it through the bone and got, you know, all the
Speaker 2: way through the animal. The arrow didn't completely pass through,
Speaker 2: but the broadhead made an exit on their side and
Speaker 2: that bone just cut clean into where you could just
Speaker 2: kind of pull or part like a puzzle put it
Speaker 2: back together. It was a slice holler through And so
Speaker 2: that was with our wide and so again I feel
Speaker 2: like it's gonna you know, you know, you need the
Speaker 2: right steal, the right hardness, strength and everything to be
Speaker 2: able to cut through that bone. But it was good
Speaker 2: to see that even with the wide, we went through
Speaker 2: probably the thickest bone you're going to see on a
Speaker 2: on an animal in North America.
Speaker 1: Gotcha. Yeah, I had a question here coming up to
Speaker 1: that would have been a great segue you know, single
Speaker 1: bebble versus double bevel. You know, we kind of exhausted
Speaker 1: that on the on the listener questions, but is are
Speaker 1: are you seeing the ability this is my last question
Speaker 1: on single go once again bone? Are you seeing a difference.
Speaker 1: Does that single bevel just have the ability to kind
Speaker 1: of torque its way through and rotate its way through
Speaker 1: bone better than double bevel or is that tonnel point
Speaker 1: on the double bevel able to break through bone similar
Speaker 1: or is there an advantage of one to the other.
Speaker 2: Yeah, good, great quote. And you know, over many years
Speaker 2: of testing, I've kind of struggled to find a difference
Speaker 2: for bone splitting ability. I know that that was It's
Speaker 2: set out there a lot that the single bevels rotate
Speaker 2: in pop bone apart. I've talked to doctor Ashby directly
Speaker 2: about that and how my results were a bit different.
Speaker 2: And you know, he was using a very long, like
Speaker 2: three to one ratio head. He had a very slow,
Speaker 2: longbo setup, and he was saying where a double bebble
Speaker 2: could kind of just kind of wedge wedge into that
Speaker 2: bone and take more force to penetrate versus that single level.
Speaker 2: As it started rotating, it was kind of popping bone
Speaker 2: and reducing the force for him to penetrate. It was
Speaker 2: an improvement, and I think we've I've talked to this
Speaker 2: with him a number of times now, and I feel
Speaker 2: like with my set up being a modern compound bow,
Speaker 2: I had so much more energy that when the tip
Speaker 2: of in our tanto tip shape, when that enters the
Speaker 2: bone starts piercing that bone, it's popping it apart. It's
Speaker 2: cutting it apart very quickly, you know, and doing a
Speaker 2: great job penetrating in that single blevel as it's cutting
Speaker 2: in and popping it apart. You know, it's hard for
Speaker 2: me to see a difference in in that at least
Speaker 2: with my setup and my my levels of energy, it
Speaker 2: might be more of a factor with a low you know,
Speaker 2: lower energy set up, thicker longer, you know, thicker bones.
Speaker 2: But I'm generally not seeing it. I'm popping through. You know,
Speaker 2: I do a lot of testing on you know, cattle femurs,
Speaker 2: things like that, and I'm seeing them both are popping
Speaker 2: through with no problem.
Speaker 1: Gotcha. So we're gonna this will be my last question
Speaker 1: for you. Kind of rolled it up a little bit,
Speaker 1: you know, for ELK when you're when you're you know,
Speaker 1: in close proximity. But you know, we got a lot
Speaker 1: of white tail hunters out there, you know, so for
Speaker 1: for setting up for ELK, what would you recommend the
Speaker 1: best broadhead for white tail hunters, you know, to be
Speaker 1: you know, out of a tree stand if that changes
Speaker 1: angles and all of that. Do you have a recommendation
Speaker 1: for that or is it just typically you're wider wider angles.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've shot I've shot all of our
Speaker 2: broad heads on quite a few white tails at this point,
Speaker 2: and I could say that, you know, they they all
Speaker 2: do a good job. They all you know, zip through
Speaker 2: quickly cut through bones, open up shot angles and opportunities there.
Speaker 2: That's really kind of what I tell people that you know,
Speaker 2: might shoot mechanical or want to know, what, how is
Speaker 2: our head better than a mechanical at a white tail,
Speaker 2: It's generally tell them it's it's opening up shot angles.
Speaker 2: And you know, if you shoot a mechanical, hit them
Speaker 2: where they're soft, and you're probably fine. But with ours,
Speaker 2: if you know that animal ducts and turns into it,
Speaker 2: and you ad they go through the shoulder blade, even
Speaker 2: the thickest part of the shoulder bone, it's going to
Speaker 2: penetrate and it's it's going to get you through the
Speaker 2: vitals or if it's a downward shot through the spine.
Speaker 2: And really has to say that about any of our
Speaker 2: heads that we make, they're all going to be able
Speaker 2: to make those shots. I'm generally personally using our wides
Speaker 2: now more on white tails. It's just that the shots
Speaker 2: are you know, typically twenty to thirty yards, rarely are
Speaker 2: they over forty in a white tail woods. And so
Speaker 2: I know, I know our wide are going to penetrate, great,
Speaker 2: why not get a little bigger houle if there's a
Speaker 2: more marginal shot let's say you end up hitting you know,
Speaker 2: one long liver guts. I've done that a number of times.
Speaker 2: And with our wide, our wide belvel with that twoe
Speaker 2: and eight inch total cut between the main blade and
Speaker 2: the bleeder, you know, often they're going maybe sixty seventy
Speaker 2: yards and dying even with a single long liver shot.
Speaker 2: It's just doing enough trauma of it. They're going down quickly.
Speaker 2: So that's kind of the advantage of why shoot Maybe
Speaker 2: a wide over smaller one is just more you know,
Speaker 2: more bleeding, quicker potentially quicker kills. So that's why I
Speaker 2: generally recommend on white tails, our wide series, and that's
Speaker 2: what I generally recommend on bears as well, which are
Speaker 2: similar culture shots and and yeah, and bears, especially with
Speaker 2: all that hair, it's important to get an exit hole there.
Speaker 2: That's talking to the outfitter again. In Canada a few
Speaker 2: weeks back, a lot of guys are coming up their
Speaker 2: shooting mechanicals and if they're if they're a little bit
Speaker 2: quartered away and hitting the oppositized shoulder, they're not getting
Speaker 2: passed through and then they got a high entrance hole,
Speaker 2: no exit hole. And on a bear, that's that means
Speaker 2: no blood, no blood trail because it just soaks up
Speaker 2: that that blood so much. So. Yeah, white sails bears.
Speaker 2: I I generally recommend our wide heads for those shots.
Speaker 1: Got you? Thanks for that, Bill, Tell everybody how they
Speaker 1: can follow, follow along and you follow the company on
Speaker 1: social media, check out more and if there's anything else
Speaker 1: you'd like to throw in that we didn't cover here,
Speaker 1: feel free to do that as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, our website is iron Well Outfitters. We're on you know, Instagram,
Speaker 2: Facebook as iron Welfare is. Also we're we have a
Speaker 2: YouTube channel, it's also Ironwall Outfitters. And yeah, I'm committed
Speaker 2: to uh improving you know, boon hunting, applying science to
Speaker 2: make better products. We we make broadheads. You're currently working
Speaker 2: on making better arrows. We've started through the university study
Speaker 2: we we came up with. We found the best thing
Speaker 2: from the study was this hybrid hunter vein which is
Speaker 2: the Max Huino profile and a new hybrid material that
Speaker 2: we had a make for us and worked with east
Speaker 2: End to machine flesh is at three degree helical. So
Speaker 2: that all the people ask that ask me, you know
Speaker 2: what aero set up should I used to with your
Speaker 2: broad heads. I can just say, hey, the one we
Speaker 2: sell right now kind of did the best overall in
Speaker 2: the study. And you know, we know this is going
Speaker 2: to work well to make our heads fly. Well, it's
Speaker 2: been really a few you know, have a bowton, so
Speaker 2: your arrow's coming relatively straight off of it, you're properly spine,
Speaker 2: and then you have enough vein on the back to
Speaker 2: you stabilize that fixed plate head on the front should
Speaker 2: have good air flight, and we have great tech support.
Speaker 2: If people are having any problems with our broad heads
Speaker 2: in flight, we're happy to help you get that set up.
Speaker 2: But I want to throw it out out there too
Speaker 2: that we're I want to help the blow hunters be
Speaker 2: more successful and we're happy to help you do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, thanks a lot, Bill, Thanks for jumping on.
Speaker 1: Good luck this fall. If I don't talk to you
Speaker 1: before then, and always appreciate your knowledge and perspective, you know,
Speaker 1: in your opinions, whatever you may throw at this, because
Speaker 1: I know you've tested it and confirmed it, so I
Speaker 1: really appreciate having you on and take care.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks, Jason. Is good talking to another engineer, and
Speaker 2: I know I might have got a little bit too
Speaker 2: into the details, so hopefully Yeah, people have some takeaways
Speaker 2: from it, but yeah, thanks a lot for having me on.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. Take care,