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Speaker 1: Welcome back to cutting the distance. Today's guest has been

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Speaker 1: able to combine his two passions of bow hunting and

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Speaker 1: mechanical engineering into designing and producing some of the best

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Speaker 1: broadheads available today. Bill vander Hayden has been bow hunting

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Speaker 1: for forty years. He grew up putting white tells in

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Speaker 1: Wisconsin before moving to Colorado twenty four years ago. He

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Speaker 1: still hunts white tales, but his focus is now primarily

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Speaker 1: on Western big game, with backcountry elk cutting being his

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Speaker 1: absolute favorite. He's been a mechanical engineer for thirty years,

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Speaker 1: with an emphasis on mechanical design and material science. He's

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Speaker 1: developed products for other companies for many years, including high tech,

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Speaker 1: aerospace and medical devices, before starting Ironwell Outfitters and focusing

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Speaker 1: completely on broadheads and aero components just recently. He's also

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Speaker 1: an adjunct instructor of Mechanical engineering at University of Colorado,

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Speaker 1: where he's currently sponsoring and directing projects related to science

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Speaker 1: of bowhunting. So welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Bill, Thanks Jason, thanks for having me on.

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Speaker 1: I know you just returned from a bear hunt up

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Speaker 1: in Canada. It looked like a great time with some

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Speaker 1: great results. Go ahead and give us a little snapshot

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Speaker 1: into that hunt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been going up to Saskatchewan in the spring

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Speaker 2: for oh I think it's my fourth trip up there

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Speaker 2: in the last five or six years, and just seeing

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Speaker 2: some giant bears and I got a good one last year,

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Speaker 2: but this year was just a tank of a bear

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Speaker 2: one hundred and seventy three pound and man, my heart

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Speaker 2: was beating hard when I saw him coming through the woods.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, a great bear is huge.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the pictures were impressive, and a lot of times

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Speaker 1: on bears, it seems like pictures don't do him justice,

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Speaker 1: so I can only imagine how big that that guy was.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, for upper fours, you know, we're getting into

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Speaker 1: that almost five hundred range. That is a giant. So

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Speaker 1: congrats on that. No appreciate having you on. We're going

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Speaker 1: to talk a lot about what I consider, you know,

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Speaker 1: the killing end of the stick for a lot of

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Speaker 1: US archery hunters, and so I'm really excited. But like

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Speaker 1: every episode, we're gonna jump in to listener questions or

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Speaker 1: some questions that I was able to scrounge up that

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Speaker 1: people had knowing that I was going to have you

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Speaker 1: on a guest today. So like every episode. If you

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Speaker 1: have questions for me or my guests, please submit them

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Speaker 1: to us at CTD at Phelpsgame Calls dot Com, or

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Speaker 1: send us a message on social and we'll do our

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Speaker 1: best to get them included. So I've got five or

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Speaker 1: six questions here. Once again, I went to the is

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Speaker 1: it September Yet? Facebook page group? You know, a bunch

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Speaker 1: of diehard artrel hunters, and so I've got a list

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Speaker 1: of questions I'm gonna throw at you here. Bill.

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Speaker 2: That's good.

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Speaker 1: So I don't know if there's a science to it,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna call this first question. Can you explain

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Speaker 1: kind of the science of a good blood trail? This

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Speaker 1: question comes to us from Derek Klein from is it

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Speaker 1: September Yet?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'd say there's kind of probably three factors there.

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Speaker 2: There's you know, shot placement, did you slight? Are your

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Speaker 2: blazing able to slice all the way through? And then

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Speaker 2: you know what's the shape and size of the holes

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Speaker 2: really and so shot placement's going to be number one.

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Speaker 2: If you get the heart lung area and you got

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Speaker 2: a low exit hole, you know probably going to be

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Speaker 2: a great blood trail. If you're hitting a high back

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Speaker 2: lung shot, you know, just blow the spine high and back.

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Speaker 2: Those can those can be not so good. You know

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Speaker 2: you've got you know, the blood's got to float on

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Speaker 2: the sides of the animal. Also, you know you cut

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Speaker 2: the top along with that kind of shrinks down. Not

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Speaker 2: a lot of not a lot of bleeding coming from that.

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Speaker 2: You shoot a gut shot maybe that you know, often

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Speaker 2: the guts can kind of plug the hole and the

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Speaker 2: stuff coming out might not be bright red, it might

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Speaker 2: be kind of more brownish or something. So that can

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Speaker 2: be tough too. So you shot place is probably number one.

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Speaker 2: But if you just get into the broadheads, then you know,

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Speaker 2: the bigger and the more open the hole is going

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Speaker 2: to generally give a better blood trail. So just a

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Speaker 2: two blade slice can sometimes close up and give you

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Speaker 2: a really poor blood trail, even if the slicing was

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Speaker 2: kind of good through the middle. They can be good,

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Speaker 2: but that's kind of a potential issue with just a

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Speaker 2: straight two blade. A three blade can give you more

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Speaker 2: of a hole then, because you know you don't it's

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Speaker 2: not a single slice that can close up. You've got

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Speaker 2: more triangular shape inside, and I would put a two

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Speaker 2: blade with bleeders in that same category. You get a

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Speaker 2: cross cut there inside corners don't can't really stay tension,

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Speaker 2: so they pull back and there's a bit of a

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Speaker 2: hole there in a single bevel with a rotation, and

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Speaker 2: I prefer single bubble with bleeders with that rotation that

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Speaker 2: can give more of almost a square hole because of

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Speaker 2: that rotation the way it cuts to the hide, so

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Speaker 2: that hole opens up holes nicely. But the other factor,

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Speaker 2: and I would also say, you know, kind of bigger

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Speaker 2: the better you know, our wide broadhead series gives a

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Speaker 2: wider cut than our standard and in general is going

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Speaker 2: to give more, you know, more blood getting out of

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Speaker 2: the animal, more more tissue is sliced as you go through.

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Speaker 2: But one other factor that a lot of people don't

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Speaker 2: think about is that sharpness and edge retention is really

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Speaker 2: important as well. I believe I've done some testing where

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Speaker 2: you just push the broad different broadheads through, say like

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Speaker 2: a liver or a lung you know, of an animal

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Speaker 2: after you get it, and you can see that with

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Speaker 2: Ironworld broadheads that are very sharp with good edge retention,

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Speaker 2: you get that complete cut of the size of the

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Speaker 2: head as it goes through, its slicing everything. It's not

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Speaker 2: really pushing the tissue aside, whereas a lot of heads

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Speaker 2: they're with cheaper blades, those edges are dull by the

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Speaker 2: time they get through the hide and for sure rib

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Speaker 2: and so they push a lot of tissue aside after that,

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Speaker 2: don't slice it, so there's a lot less bleeding involved.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, you know, And

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Speaker 1: you know, I just relate to sharpness to you know,

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Speaker 1: when you cut yourself with a brand new raisor you know,

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Speaker 1: it seems like it takes forever to stop bleeding. And

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Speaker 1: so I've always felt sharpness, but then, like you said,

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Speaker 1: keeping that thing sharp. You know, we've all ran our

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Speaker 1: knife through highe We've all ran our knife, you know,

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Speaker 1: along a bone and it doesn't take very long. So

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Speaker 1: that that that the initial sharpness, but then the ability

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Speaker 1: to hold that through is it gets through the animal

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Speaker 1: or out the other side, in my opinion, is one

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Speaker 1: of those like very important aspects to have that exit

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Speaker 1: hole bleeding and have you found or I mean it's

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Speaker 1: very tough to do, but a lot of times we

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Speaker 1: get more blood out of that exit side, do you

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Speaker 1: This is this is something I've always talked about. Your

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Speaker 1: exit hole on a broadhead always seems to be bigger,

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Speaker 1: and it's I'm gonna let you you clear up anything.

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Speaker 1: I say that that may be a mistake here. But

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Speaker 1: when you on you on your entry side, let's say

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Speaker 1: you have a ribcage that's backing the hide, it almost

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Speaker 1: guarantees that, since there's no stretch to that hide, you're

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Speaker 1: going to get a hole that's the exact size of

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Speaker 1: your broad head, unless you come in at an angle.

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Speaker 1: You know, but you're basically going to get a mirror

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Speaker 1: of your broadhead that goes in. But on the opposite

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Speaker 1: side that that hide will stretch a little bit depending

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Speaker 1: on the sharpness and the angle and whatnot. And as

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Speaker 1: you imagine that that hide stretching over the broadhead before

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Speaker 1: it finally starts to slice, you typically will get that

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Speaker 1: bigger exit side. And you know, growing up or everything,

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Speaker 1: you always you know that the exit hole is always bigger.

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Speaker 1: They bleed more out of it. Have you found that

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Speaker 1: to be true or are they very similar?

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Speaker 2: I think that's probably true in general, that the exit

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Speaker 2: holes seem to be a little bigger than entrance With

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Speaker 2: single bubbles, I'd say that it seems to not be

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Speaker 2: the case so much because that rotation on entrance in

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Speaker 2: a way it's twisting and cutting. I see kind of

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Speaker 2: more similar. It's a pretty open hole on both sides.

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Speaker 2: God Joe's with a with a single ballot with bleeders.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And we'll get into it here in a little bit.

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Speaker 1: One of the reasons I like actually a narrower head

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Speaker 1: is to ensure that I get those two holes if

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Speaker 1: I do everything right on my side, which isn't necessarily

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Speaker 1: it doesn't relate back to the lethality of the broadhead.

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Speaker 1: You know, the animal is probably still going to die.

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Speaker 1: It's my ability to get more evidence on the ground,

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Speaker 1: you know, so I can I can track the thing

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Speaker 1: to its final location and not necessarily lose it.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Around here, we've got a bunch of needles or old

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Speaker 1: growth they may run into. And the more blood we

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Speaker 1: can get on the ground the better. And then one

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Speaker 1: other thing I was going to touch you'd mentioned like

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Speaker 1: a high lung shot, you know, and the result of

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Speaker 1: bloods we've We've hit a lot of animals high lung

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Speaker 1: and I will say once again, they die maybe faster

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Speaker 1: than other ones because it does fill up their lungs

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Speaker 1: with blood very quickly and stuff, you know, does the

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Speaker 1: does the killing through that mechanism, But yeah, very very

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Speaker 1: little blood. Now, it is a great shot if you

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Speaker 1: know to to, very quick and ethical, but doesn't yield

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Speaker 1: very good blood. And so it's that balance of you know,

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Speaker 1: hitting them there versus getting a blood trail. So I'll

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Speaker 1: diverge on that topic. We're going to get into penetration

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Speaker 1: and some of the other things I personally look for

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Speaker 1: on big Western big game. But no, thanks for answering

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Speaker 1: Derek Klein's question there on blood trail sharpness two three

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Speaker 1: or four blades. I think we covered it all there.

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Speaker 1: Now there was one thing I'm going to add to this.

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Speaker 1: Do you find any difference in blood blood trails single

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Speaker 1: to double bevel?

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Speaker 2: Does it?

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Speaker 1: Does that affect aside from what you've already mentioned that

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Speaker 1: entry hole or are would you say that you know,

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Speaker 1: regardless of the angle of the blade and all, that

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Speaker 1: they yield pretty similar blood trails everything else being equal.

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Speaker 2: I would say with a two blade head, if you

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Speaker 2: have a two blade without bleeder, and you compare a

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Speaker 2: double bevel to a single bevel, I would give single

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Speaker 2: bevel a little advantage there because there's there's kind of

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Speaker 2: an s cut as it rotates in so it's it's

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Speaker 2: not really a straight slit like you get with a

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Speaker 2: straight two blade without bleeders, and then with the once

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Speaker 2: you add the bleeders on a single level and get

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Speaker 2: that rotation there, it does. I mean, if you look

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Speaker 2: at the holes through the high on both sides, they

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Speaker 2: are more open with that rotation. I would say that

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Speaker 2: I've seen good blood trails with both. Really our double

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Speaker 2: bebble with the bleeder and then our single bubble with

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Speaker 2: the bleeder. There's a lot of cutting going on and

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Speaker 2: the holes are opening up both sides. I think they

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Speaker 2: both do really well. I might give a little advantage though,

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Speaker 2: to the single bubble with bleeder, just because of the

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Speaker 2: way it opens up those holes, especially the entrance hole.

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Speaker 1: Gotcha, that makes a lot of sense. So thanks Matt.

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Speaker 1: We're going to jump into the next question here. Can

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Speaker 1: you explain the warranty of iron Will broadheads and kind

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Speaker 1: of what that covers and what led you to that warranty.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, you know the reason for that initially was that,

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Speaker 2: you know, I spent many years trying to design develop

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Speaker 2: a broadhead that would would cut through bone and stay sharp,

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Speaker 2: not get damaged, you know, get you through that shoulder

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Speaker 2: bone on an elk. Really, that's a failure that I

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Speaker 2: had and what really got me started in this. And

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Speaker 2: after many years of different steels and heat treat processes

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Speaker 2: developed the steel and then in the feral material as well,

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Speaker 2: there was high strength to where I could pump through

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Speaker 2: the heaviest of bones and have no damage to the

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Speaker 2: broad head. So, you know, because of that and the

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Speaker 2: cost of our heads a lifetime, you know, guarantee you

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Speaker 2: ben or break it, we replace it. We had enough

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Speaker 2: abuse initially with people shooting them into you know, concrete

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Speaker 2: blocks or into heavy wood over and over and you know,

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Speaker 2: bending them getting them out that we kind of change

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Speaker 2: the warranty a bit to say any shot you know,

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Speaker 2: at or through an animal, we it's warrantied, will replace

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Speaker 2: it if it gets damaged shooting at or through an animal,

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Speaker 2: even if it hits rock on their side of the animal.

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Speaker 2: But you know, in a hunting situation, but we don't

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Speaker 2: want people shooting them. I mean some people would shoot

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Speaker 2: groups into target it's all summer long, until all the

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Speaker 2: blades were damaged and then you know, want to replacement

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Speaker 2: three packs. So we just kind of limited it doesn't

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Speaker 2: cover target shooting or you know, intentionally shooting it you know,

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Speaker 2: rocks or concrete or steel, but anything in a hunting situation,

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Speaker 2: we do cover warranty.

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Speaker 1: So it's basically, uh, not to reword, but it's some

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Speaker 1: common sense applied to hunting scenarios and making sure you're

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Speaker 1: not smashing broadheads together and shooting stuff that they weren't

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Speaker 1: intended to shoot through. But no, it sounds like a

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Speaker 1: great warranty there, and you know, at least protect protect

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Speaker 1: the product for what it was intended to.

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Speaker 2: Do, right. We want we want you to be able

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Speaker 2: to so they're not single use heads. And that's a

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Speaker 2: new concept for a lot of people. You know, we've

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Speaker 2: we've had people shoot and I probably have as well,

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Speaker 2: shoot the same broadhead through several animals, maybe ten animals,

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Speaker 2: and keep using that broadhead. You know, you typically you know,

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Speaker 2: might need to touch up the edges to for sharpness

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Speaker 2: after after couple, but you can keep using them. And

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Speaker 2: that's the intention there is that when people know that

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Speaker 2: once you buy the you can use these for many years.

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Speaker 2: Just take some care with the you know, target shooting

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Speaker 2: and things to not shoot them into something like a

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Speaker 2: steel plate or anything like that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and that's you know you talk about after,

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Speaker 1: you know, being able to reuse those same thing here.

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Speaker 1: And one thing I really loved about them, you know

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Speaker 1: when I used to use replaceable bladed you know, more

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Speaker 1: mass produced replaceable bladed broadheads. That was one thing, like

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Speaker 1: shooting into the target. I could feel, you know, throughout

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Speaker 1: a summer, like these things are getting dull when you

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Speaker 1: switched over where it's you know, the iron wheel, I

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Speaker 1: can just keep shooting and the thing never it's you know,

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Speaker 1: whatever you do to the edge, whatever you've got done

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Speaker 1: with the sharpness there. It's like a foam target really

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Speaker 1: doesn't mess with that. And so I love like being

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Speaker 1: able to get an aerow dialed in with a specific broadhead,

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Speaker 1: knowing that however it's set up is a great combo

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Speaker 1: and it's flying. Well, I don't have to mess with it.

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Speaker 1: I don't have to worry about sharpening it, you know,

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Speaker 1: because I've shot it one hundred times into foam.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. We generally say if you're going to shoot five times,

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Speaker 2: you know, I think I've measured up to ten. But

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Speaker 2: we kind of say, if you want to shoot every

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Speaker 2: broadhead arrow you know in your quiver and make sure

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Speaker 2: that it's flying well. You know, just shoot once or

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Speaker 2: toys for each arrow at you know, fifty yards or

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Speaker 2: whatever makes you comfortable that that arrow is going to

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Speaker 2: fly well, but five times or less than like a

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Speaker 2: foam target like right heart matrix. I can't measure any

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Speaker 2: difference to that edge sharpness. And that's because our hardness

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Speaker 2: is sixty rock well. See, so that's a very hard

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Speaker 2: strong edge. And then we do a multi stage grinding

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Speaker 2: and honey, get it very sharp and it retains that

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Speaker 2: edge edge really well. And that's why you can generally

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Speaker 2: shoot your an animal and one pass through of you know,

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Speaker 2: hide ribs exiting into you know, just say dirt, you

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Speaker 2: can typically clean it up, see if it's still kind

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Speaker 2: of shaving hair and put it back in your quiver,

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Speaker 2: keep using it. And if it does get dull to

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Speaker 2: the point where it's not shaving hair pretty quickly, you know,

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Speaker 2: touch it up and keep using it too.

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Speaker 1: Ye ye, all right, So the next question comes from Chase.

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Speaker 1: Hopefully I don't mess up last name.

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Speaker 2: Eagerly.

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Speaker 1: Do your vented heads whistle or make noise?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? In general, vented heads have a little bit like

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Speaker 2: a like a shish to them. I guess in flight

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Speaker 2: are solid heads. We just I did sound testing years

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Speaker 2: ago and we just actually repeated it this past year

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Speaker 2: with a with a study we're doing at the University

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00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:35,120
Speaker 2: of Colorado on aer veine designs or improved flight with

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Speaker 2: fixed blade broadheads, and sound recording was part of that.

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Speaker 2: We looked at the the sound from the shot to

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Speaker 2: you know, passing through, which would basically be when the

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Speaker 2: animals hit, and I looked at the frequency content as well,

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Speaker 2: and you know what we what I would say is

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Speaker 2: that our saw blade heads are very quiet similar We

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Speaker 2: saw similar to field point type sound amplitude on those,

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Speaker 2: so they're excellent, and our vent and blades are a

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Speaker 2: bit louder. Our original V series with the small events

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Speaker 2: are probably our loudest head, and then our wide series

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Speaker 2: with the larger vents, that vent is a bit quieter.

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Speaker 2: It's kind of like blunted through a whistle versus a

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Speaker 2: tube a bit there. But we saw in both cases though,

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Speaker 2: And that's this is why I don't think it's as

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Speaker 2: big of a deal to some people do. Is that

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Speaker 2: you get the sound of the bow going off and

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Speaker 2: then the arrows, and really that bone noise is still

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Speaker 2: there's still vibration noise coming from that bow, and the

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Speaker 2: arrow is five to ten yards down range already, and

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Speaker 2: then it gets really quiet until the arrow gets pretty

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Speaker 2: close to that animal or the target, and then it

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Speaker 2: flares up. So and if we looked at the segment

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Speaker 2: that was say fifteen to ten yards from the animal,

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Speaker 2: it was very hard to pick up a difference between

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Speaker 2: different veins, different broadheads, anything. So I think I think

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Speaker 2: it's a bit. I don't think it's a big of

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Speaker 2: a concern that some people have. I think that sound

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Speaker 2: from veins or brighthead blades or vents, it doesn't really

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00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:14,520
Speaker 2: flare up until it's so close to the animal. That's

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Speaker 2: probably not as big a factor as people think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you may know better than me. I'd have

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Speaker 1: to go researcher or google it. I can't remember the

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Speaker 1: speed of sound versus the speed of a typical arrow, Like,

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Speaker 1: do you know which one's traveling faster at that point?

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Speaker 2: Speed of sound I think is like twelve hundred in

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Speaker 2: your arrows, you know.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, three hundred. So I mean that animal is your

346
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Speaker 1: Your arrow is never going to outrun the bow. I

347
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Speaker 1: didn't know the numbers, but I knew this idea that

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Speaker 1: that there's no regardless of that arrow whistling, that animal

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Speaker 1: is gonna hear your bow before an arrow ever matters.

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Speaker 1: And so it's like, in my mind, just comparing the speeds,

351
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Speaker 1: it's like, all right, that the sound of my bow

352
00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:57,639
Speaker 1: going off and with any reasonable archery distance, that animal

353
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Speaker 1: has been made aware of my bow before he's ever

354
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Speaker 1: going to recognize the arrow making a whistle.

355
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Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, my my current thinking on this. And

356
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Speaker 2: I try not to make, you know, gut decisions. I

357
00:18:08,359 --> 00:18:11,680
Speaker 2: try to make analyze, do data driven decisions on things.

358
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Speaker 2: But I kind of feel like, you know, because a

359
00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:15,760
Speaker 2: lot of people say, you know, from a video, you

360
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:17,840
Speaker 2: can see that the animal didn't move at the shot

361
00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:21,280
Speaker 2: of the bow. He moved from the you know, sound

362
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 2: of the arrow later, But really that arrow is you know,

363
00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:27,400
Speaker 2: a quarter of the way there. Maybe when he hears it,

364
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,240
Speaker 2: when he hears the bo go off and and that

365
00:18:30,320 --> 00:18:33,800
Speaker 2: bon noise continues, you know, for another five or ten

366
00:18:33,920 --> 00:18:37,280
Speaker 2: yards of that arow travel yep. And now he's looking

367
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,119
Speaker 2: that way, and you know, deer and animals in general

368
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,520
Speaker 2: have excellent vision for movement, so he looks over that way,

369
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,879
Speaker 2: maybe he sees movement of the hunter or whatever, or

370
00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,879
Speaker 2: maybe even sees the arrow in flight, you know, And

371
00:18:51,920 --> 00:18:54,520
Speaker 2: then I think with that movement, with that sound, they're

372
00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:59,160
Speaker 2: deciding am I gonna bolt or not? And they start

373
00:18:59,240 --> 00:19:01,399
Speaker 2: moving and you know, and there's a little bit of

374
00:19:01,480 --> 00:19:03,879
Speaker 2: time just to register from the sound to when an

375
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 2: animal can react. So my feeling is, yeah, maybe he

376
00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,440
Speaker 2: moved when the arrow was maybe start moving when the

377
00:19:10,520 --> 00:19:12,920
Speaker 2: arrow was halfway there, but it's still that initial sound

378
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:15,600
Speaker 2: of the bow, him looking over him, maybe maybe something

379
00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:19,400
Speaker 2: he saw with his vision it's making him react that way. Yeah,

380
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:22,440
Speaker 2: that's kind of my feeling, not so much the sound

381
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:26,239
Speaker 2: of the vein or the that head broadhead. But you know,

382
00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:29,320
Speaker 2: that's that's not the general thinking and industry. I'm just

383
00:19:29,359 --> 00:19:32,080
Speaker 2: trying to apply science and what I've kind of learned

384
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Speaker 2: so far.

385
00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, that's all we can do.

386
00:19:34,640 --> 00:19:34,720
Speaker 2: Right.

387
00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:36,760
Speaker 1: That's where I love being able to balance the science

388
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,840
Speaker 1: versus what we see out there as real world results

389
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 1: and kind of blending those two. So next question comes

390
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,800
Speaker 1: from Chris past Though. What's your best practice for sharpening

391
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 1: iron will broad heads or any broadheads for that matter.

392
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say, first off, when you get when

393
00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,240
Speaker 2: you get our broad heads don't don't sharpen them. They're

394
00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 2: very sharp ready, it would be difficult to achieve, you know,

395
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,760
Speaker 2: the edge sharpness we have. We can zoom into two

396
00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:08,080
Speaker 2: hundred x and it's still you know, dead sharp to

397
00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,240
Speaker 2: one ten thousands of an inch, and so our sharpness

398
00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,320
Speaker 2: starts way sharper than many. But in general, I would

399
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,600
Speaker 2: say that when you get broad heads it's good to

400
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,080
Speaker 2: check sharpness. You'd be surprised at how many aren't sharp

401
00:20:22,359 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 2: out of the box, especially like a one piece solid construction,

402
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 2: you know, two or three blade Often a lot of

403
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:32,200
Speaker 2: times those just have a milled edge, mild bevels to them.

404
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:36,080
Speaker 2: So just to note, first off, when you get heads,

405
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:38,639
Speaker 2: check to see if they're sharp, make sure they're sharp,

406
00:20:38,760 --> 00:20:41,119
Speaker 2: or sharpen them when you get them. RGI shouldn't need

407
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:43,639
Speaker 2: to do that. And then it kind of depends on

408
00:20:43,960 --> 00:20:49,800
Speaker 2: how much that edge is worn away. Generally with ours,

409
00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 2: it's kind of like a high end knife. The hardness,

410
00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,600
Speaker 2: the sharpness is very good to start with, and you

411
00:20:54,640 --> 00:20:58,800
Speaker 2: can typically go through you know, hide meat, even a

412
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,720
Speaker 2: rib and have that edge would be pretty good. So

413
00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: I would first just clean it up, check and see

414
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,040
Speaker 2: if it's still sharp. Shaven hair, or you can see

415
00:21:06,040 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 2: if it kind of cuts paper. If it's good, just

416
00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:12,520
Speaker 2: leave it. If if the edges still look good you

417
00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,280
Speaker 2: don't see any flats or rolled edge or anything like that,

418
00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:18,159
Speaker 2: but it's not quite shaving hair cutting paper. Then I

419
00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,480
Speaker 2: just and there's videos on our YouTube channel that show this,

420
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 2: but I just start with like an extra fine stone

421
00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:28,880
Speaker 2: and by hand, kind of hold hold the bubble, kind

422
00:21:28,880 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 2: of match the bubble, just tip it slightly so I'm

423
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 2: contacting the edge and just you know, a few strokes

424
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 2: back and forth, over and over, and then lightning pressure

425
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:40,520
Speaker 2: and really it's about a minute minute and a half

426
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,080
Speaker 2: of doing that on edge, and I'm typically able to

427
00:21:43,720 --> 00:21:48,679
Speaker 2: shave hair again if it's if it's if it's been dulled,

428
00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:52,440
Speaker 2: I guess more than that, then that's when I tip.

429
00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,439
Speaker 2: I guess. The full proof kind of way to do it,

430
00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,920
Speaker 2: I think is to remove the blade, clamp it up,

431
00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: clamp it into a knife sharpener or a broadhead jig,

432
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: but you know, mark put a marker on the beveled edge,

433
00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: and then I like the knife sharpeners where you can

434
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 2: set the angle and have flat stones so you can

435
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 2: adjust the angle until just one light light kind of

436
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:21,879
Speaker 2: scrape against that stone is removing removing that marker that

437
00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 2: you put on all the way to the edge. So

438
00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:25,520
Speaker 2: you know, you're kind of matching the babble cleaning up

439
00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:29,560
Speaker 2: to the edge. And then you can you maybe just

440
00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:32,159
Speaker 2: start with a with a fine and then extra fine,

441
00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 2: or if it's a bit more beat up, you might

442
00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 2: go medium fine, extra fine. But you're you're taking strokes

443
00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,080
Speaker 2: on one side and then the other back and forth

444
00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 2: and kind of regrinding that edge all the way to

445
00:22:42,600 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: the tip. As you can go to finer stones, you

446
00:22:44,600 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 2: can get a finer, sharper edge, and you know, we

447
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 2: can get in more details on this, but as you're

448
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:52,879
Speaker 2: as you're doing it, initially you want to clean up

449
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,479
Speaker 2: that edge to where you can feel a bird all

450
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,320
Speaker 2: along that edge coming out through the other side. That

451
00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:01,119
Speaker 2: then you know, you clean up that full edge you

452
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:04,159
Speaker 2: and you're doing it back then on the on the

453
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 2: other side to bring it back and then as you

454
00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 2: go to the finer stones, you're kind of working a smaller,

455
00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,439
Speaker 2: smaller bird and then at the end it's it's you know,

456
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,520
Speaker 2: you're just taking a completely off and it's dead sharp.

457
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: Yeah. I like to use you know, I've had a

458
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:18,880
Speaker 1: few broadheads get to that point. A lot of times.

459
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:21,040
Speaker 1: I can just pick it up, you know, flip my

460
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 1: thumb across it. It's still really sharp, good enough to

461
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:25,479
Speaker 1: to shoot another animal with. But yeah, when I get

462
00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,280
Speaker 1: to that point, I don't remember the kind. But it's

463
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: a work sharp that basically, you know, rotate your blade

464
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,240
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighty. You can set the exact angle

465
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:33,840
Speaker 1: you want, So I just kind of look at the side,

466
00:23:33,920 --> 00:23:36,400
Speaker 1: make sure that you know, yeah, I'm contacting the tip,

467
00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: but I'm almost so kind of maintaining that that angle,

468
00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:41,000
Speaker 1: so I'm getting a real smooth and then just you know,

469
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 1: run it down the blade. It holds it at the

470
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:45,200
Speaker 1: perfect you know, twenty two twenty two and a half

471
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 1: whatever it may be for a double bevel or or

472
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,320
Speaker 1: you know, whatever that angle may be, and then yeah,

473
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:52,959
Speaker 1: you can touch them. It really good. I do notice that,

474
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: like you know, the the sense you do get it

475
00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 1: to a hardness of sixty. Sometimes can be a little

476
00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: it more difficult than I would say, like a cheaper steel.

477
00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 1: To get that you have to work out a little

478
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: bit more. But I I found that that that works

479
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,119
Speaker 1: sharp lets me get those things dialed right. Back in

480
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,679
Speaker 1: without removing too much material and kind of maintaining that

481
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: angle really well.

482
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's a two tool steel, so it's

483
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 2: it's a steel used in metal stamping, dice to cut

484
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,880
Speaker 2: other metals, and it kind of has a unique ability

485
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 2: to have great impact toughness and retain retain an edge

486
00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:30,840
Speaker 2: in sharpness even when cutting through something like like metal.

487
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,640
Speaker 2: I'd say it's a it's a pretty workable steel since

488
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:38,240
Speaker 2: the tool steel it doesn't have. It's not like some

489
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 2: super steels that have such hard carbide particles in it

490
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,560
Speaker 2: that that it's really difficult or you need special you know,

491
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 2: stones or equipment to sharpen. I'd say it's it's definitely

492
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: doable with with standard sharpening stones. But yeah we take

493
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:55,919
Speaker 2: a little bit more worked and say a soft you

494
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:56,679
Speaker 2: know four twenty.

495
00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, it's I know, it's not near as difficult

496
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: as like the s thirty vs as ninety v's and

497
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:03,360
Speaker 1: stuff we used to try to sharpen. I'm like, man,

498
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:05,280
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't. I can't remember how to run

499
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 1: a knife sharpener anymore because you'd sit and struggle with

500
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: those and then you know, eventually figured out how to

501
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:12,199
Speaker 1: get those sharp again, but yeah, it's it's definitely easier

502
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 1: than that, but maybe a little more work than than

503
00:25:14,760 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: softer steels.

504
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 2: So yes.

505
00:25:30,359 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: The next question comes from Aja Doob. How much helical

506
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: for a single bevel would you recommend?

507
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of like two to three degrees. And

508
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,000
Speaker 2: this is part of the university study too. We were

509
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 2: looking at with the high speed camera as the ear

510
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,200
Speaker 2: comes out of the bow and I'll click it, does

511
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 2: it spin up? And then you know what's the maximum

512
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:54,280
Speaker 2: spin it gets down range? And so I mean I

513
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: don't like zero to one degree. I mean zero definitely

514
00:25:56,840 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 2: you're not getting any rotation. And the reason you want

515
00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 2: rotation in an arrow is it kind of averages out

516
00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 2: any asymmetries. You know, if your your insert or broadheads

517
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: is pointing a little bit off to one side, and

518
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 2: then as you shoot the arrow without rotation, it's just

519
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 2: going to drive the arrow off to that direction, whereas

520
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: if you have rotation, it might open up your groups

521
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 2: a little bit, but it's going to keep it much

522
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: closer to you know, on on the bullseye. So you

523
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 2: want rotation, and I think two to three degrees is

524
00:26:30,000 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 2: a pretty good amount. I think on a vein to

525
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:35,840
Speaker 2: relatively quickly spin that arrow up, so you get the

526
00:26:35,880 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: accuracy advantages. But I don't really see a need to

527
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:47,040
Speaker 2: get a very high rotation. I don't I think at impact,

528
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:49,879
Speaker 2: you know, super high rotation, it seems could probably be

529
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: a negative thing. But what I've tested from you know,

530
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:54,959
Speaker 2: I've tested like two and a half to three degree

531
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: helical with our current single bubbles, and that seems to

532
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: do a really good job. We've got high speed video

533
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 2: on our YouTube channel actually of passing through a deer

534
00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: and you can see that that the arrow is rotating

535
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,680
Speaker 2: at impact and it just keeps rotating right through that animal,

536
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 2: doesn't doesn't really doesn't miss a beat there. It's a

537
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 2: single bubble head. So yeah, I like the two to

538
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,200
Speaker 2: three degree range for shooting really any fixed play broadhead,

539
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:24,480
Speaker 2: but definitely seems to work well with single bubbles too.

540
00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: And I'm going to piggyback on AJ's question. Some of

541
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:29,239
Speaker 1: the stuff I don't claim to be an expert on.

542
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,400
Speaker 1: I've shot helical, you know, right handed twist double bebble broadhead,

543
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:34,800
Speaker 1: so I haven't had to deal with a lot of this.

544
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: But you know, single bubbles are sold left or right,

545
00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: twist right and then you've got the ability to helical

546
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,080
Speaker 1: left or right. But then you've also got the idea

547
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 1: that it bo naturally wants to spin an arrow a

548
00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,360
Speaker 1: certain direction. So we take those three things that could

549
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 1: all work together, could work apart from each other, or

550
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, you could have two working in one direction,

551
00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: one and the other. What's your opinion on that should

552
00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 1: we go to? Because it's something I've never thought of,

553
00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,680
Speaker 1: nothing I've ever went through. You know, when when I

554
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: was grown up bow hunting, it was always about you

555
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: don't want to spin the arrow so that it wants

556
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: to loosen your broadhead, you know, or the feral from

557
00:28:09,560 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: the insert and so you always, you know, everything spun

558
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: to the you know, you wanted the erro spin to

559
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: the right, kind of kept your broad head locked in.

560
00:28:16,040 --> 00:28:19,760
Speaker 1: What's your take? Your opinion? Is there any research that

561
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 1: supports those things should all match? How do we figure

562
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,880
Speaker 1: it out? I know it's it's a lot all one question,

563
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: but if you can kind of elaborate on that whole idea, Yeah.

564
00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: I think the I think the important thing or the

565
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 2: most important thing if you're going to shoot single bubble,

566
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: is that your your veins in your bubble match you know,

567
00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 2: you want that errow rotation as it hits the animal

568
00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 2: to continue in that direction. So and I think you

569
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:51,960
Speaker 2: can do I'd say do two to three degree offset

570
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,840
Speaker 2: or helical and if you're doing right offset or hehlicle,

571
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,200
Speaker 2: then do a right single bubble. If you're doing left

572
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 2: offset or heelicle, just do left single bebble because you

573
00:29:01,120 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 2: want that. You want that rotational momentum that's providing some

574
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: of the torque to go through the animal, which which

575
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 2: is kind of needed with single bubbl. You know, a

576
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 2: single bubbel, all that pressure on that bebbl causes the

577
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: rotation as you go through the animal. But you don't

578
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,520
Speaker 2: want it to like stop that rotation and have to

579
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:21,800
Speaker 2: change the direction and go back to way. They lose

580
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: energy and penetration there. So that's the most important part

581
00:29:25,320 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: of this whole thing. The other question is really the

582
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 2: kind of the clocking they call it on the bow

583
00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: or if you shoot a bear shit aft out of

584
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: your bow, which way is that arrow going to rotate?

585
00:29:38,360 --> 00:29:42,880
Speaker 2: And this isn't really done by design. I mean, ideally

586
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,360
Speaker 2: the arrow would just come straight out of a bow.

587
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:48,840
Speaker 2: You know, the bow manufacturers aren't doing something in particular

588
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 2: to make it rotate left or right. There's just kind

589
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: of an imbalanced force on it that might go left

590
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: or right, and generally that's due to the string twist

591
00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:00,880
Speaker 2: and the serving and how that NOx just kind of

592
00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 2: releases from it. I first heard about this maybe twelve

593
00:30:05,200 --> 00:30:08,240
Speaker 2: years ago or so, and I when I first tested

594
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,400
Speaker 2: on my boat at that time, I was getting like

595
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:15,360
Speaker 2: a quarter inch rotation left over twelve feet. Well, I

596
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,160
Speaker 2: knew from high speed video that my era was getting

597
00:30:18,240 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 2: like a full rotation right in like ten inches or

598
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 2: something from the veins when they're at two and a

599
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:27,280
Speaker 2: half to three degrees. So, and you know from engineering

600
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: some of the torque sequels I alpha, it's you know

601
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 2: that rotational, rotational, you know, angular acceleration. I guess, so

602
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,000
Speaker 2: to me, like that little bit of torque left and

603
00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 2: all this torque right from the vein, don't worry about it.

604
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: That was kind of my initial thoughts on it, and

605
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 2: I've still kind of tell people in general it's that

606
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 2: it's not the big of a factor. I mean, if

607
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: you want to really dig into the details and the weeds,

608
00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: I mean, I do see with high speed video that

609
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 2: if the boat tends to want to make it rotate

610
00:30:57,520 --> 00:30:59,720
Speaker 2: a lobal left, there's a little bit more of a

611
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 2: hesitation there before the rate rotation starts. So I'm not

612
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: going to say that doesn't matter at all, but I'm

613
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: not I'm not so sure that it. I don't think

614
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 2: it probably matters a whole lot in accuracy, at least

615
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,960
Speaker 2: not for the average guy. And I'm not even sure

616
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,640
Speaker 2: for the pros. You know, I've talked to pros it

617
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: started doing it, but they said they don't really seeing

618
00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 2: a difference in accuracy. So I'm a bit on the

619
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 2: fence on that whole thing. But it's it's one of

620
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: those details that there's a lot of other things to

621
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: worry about, bigger factors than that.

622
00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: Yep. All, Yeah, thanks for diving into that one for me.

623
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 1: So the next question comes from Ryan Randall, are there

624
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: any plans for a traditional three or four blade head

625
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 1: in iron Mold's future?

626
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,520
Speaker 2: Yeah? Good question. You know, are two blade with bleeders

627
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: is basically a four blade with with an advantage. I

628
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 2: think sitting there putting that bleeder back away from the

629
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,240
Speaker 2: tip is an improvement for splitting splitting bone for instance,

630
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: if you're and it's really why I like a two

631
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:09,520
Speaker 2: blade with bleeds over a three blade as well. If

632
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: you think about hitting a scalpula with a two blade head,

633
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:16,520
Speaker 2: it just has to make one split through it, and

634
00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: that takes quite a bit less force than like a

635
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: three blade, where you're splitting in three different directions at once.

636
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 2: It's a lot more force, and we've got some force

637
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:29,680
Speaker 2: testing data on our website that shows this. But just

638
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:34,720
Speaker 2: pushing down through hide muscle and scalpula with our two

639
00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 2: blade with bleeds versus a three blade, I think our

640
00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: force was I think the force was like five times

641
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:43,479
Speaker 2: as much with that three blade trying to make that

642
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: split out three ways. And I hear about this all

643
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 2: the time, people shooting a three blade head into scalpula

644
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: on an elk and not penetrating through, where artist penetrates

645
00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: very easily through. So well, I ever make a three blade,

646
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm I might. I considered it. You know,

647
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,400
Speaker 2: there's a lot of people that are just stuck on

648
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:05,360
Speaker 2: shooting three blade heads and want me to make a

649
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:09,280
Speaker 2: better one, and so I might, But I actually think

650
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:11,640
Speaker 2: a two blade with bleeders is a is a better

651
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 2: option for still getting a nice entrance exit hole cutting

652
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 2: a similar number of similar amount of tissue. If you

653
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: look at the total cut, we yet penetrates bone and

654
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,120
Speaker 2: hide and everything else much better.

655
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm in agreement there. You know, the the

656
00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 1: only advantage I ever saw to a three blade was

657
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: the idea that that hole may not you know, it

658
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 1: may stay more open. But I think we still accomplish that.

659
00:33:37,000 --> 00:33:38,560
Speaker 1: Like you said, the tension from the center of that

660
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,560
Speaker 1: whole on a four blade does the same thing. It

661
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:42,800
Speaker 1: kind of keeps that whole open. But then you know

662
00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: people have talked about well, you know, just basically two

663
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: two blades crossing, they can still close, but I agree

664
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,280
Speaker 1: you kind of get that that middle open. So yeah,

665
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,280
Speaker 1: thanks for thanks for taking that one on. And now

666
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 1: the last question, and you know, the question we had

667
00:33:57,000 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: got from a few guys is why are they so expensive?

668
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: And I'd like to rearrange this question, ask you why

669
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:05,440
Speaker 1: are iron wills worth what you charge for them? And

670
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 1: you know, if you can go through the manufacturing process

671
00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: QAQC materials, finishing, hardening, all of that and kind of

672
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 1: give us a look into why these broadheads you know,

673
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: cost what they cost.

674
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, good, good question. You know, when I first had

675
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,279
Speaker 2: a broadhead fail on an ELK shoulder blade in two

676
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,000
Speaker 2: thousand and four, and it's pretty devastating for me at

677
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 2: the time. And you know, as a mechanical engineer, had

678
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,320
Speaker 2: developed products for other companies for many years at a

679
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 2: high level, and then I took a look at this broadhead,

680
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:40,240
Speaker 2: you know, really critically and decided quickly that this thing's junk,

681
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 2: it's prone to failure. And I really just decided, well,

682
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:46,680
Speaker 2: I first, you know, research and test a lot of

683
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:49,280
Speaker 2: other heads out there, but then at the end decided

684
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,760
Speaker 2: to really just start from scratch and not think about

685
00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,759
Speaker 2: low cost manufacturing, but think about how can I get

686
00:34:55,760 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 2: the highest possible performance out of this broadhead to for

687
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 2: sure get to an ELK, should bone get through the vitals,

688
00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: make that a successful hunt instead of you know, a heartbreak.

689
00:35:06,239 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: And you know, I'd also had a background when I

690
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,120
Speaker 2: when I first graduated from engineering school, I went to

691
00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 2: work for three M company at the time with development engineers.

692
00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 2: They'd have you spend like twenty percent of your time

693
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 2: on a technology development project. And coming out of school,

694
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 2: I kind of had an emphasis in kind of mechanical design,

695
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:32,640
Speaker 2: machine design, but then also advanced material materials engineering and

696
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 2: steals in particular. So the technology development. Program they gave

697
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: me was tooling development, tooling technology development for the corporation.

698
00:35:42,400 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: So I was digging heavily into steels, tool steels, heat treats, codings,

699
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 2: you know, other things to try and improve tools that

700
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,480
Speaker 2: we're doing, you know, cutting materials, cutting metals, you know,

701
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 2: really kind of all the different tooling things that are

702
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 2: used in big manufacturing corporation. So you know, I dug

703
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: deep into the steels, worked with different steel suppliers and

704
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,280
Speaker 2: things like that, so I had that background as well,

705
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,719
Speaker 2: so you know, I just knew there was that. You know,

706
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 2: most of the blades out there were using like a

707
00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 2: four to twenty stainless steel, which is not really even

708
00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:19,399
Speaker 2: a good blade steal. It's it's kind of a nice

709
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:25,280
Speaker 2: compromise of being very cheap and doing doing okay. But anyway,

710
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:27,799
Speaker 2: I went through five different steels before I settled on

711
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: a two tool steel. I used S seven as well,

712
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 2: which is a great impact steel, and really they're both

713
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:38,200
Speaker 2: used in metal stamping, dies and punches. S seven is

714
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 2: generally used to punch or form metal. A two is

715
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: often used if you're going to cut metal. And so

716
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: even though I liked S seven and used it, for

717
00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:48,600
Speaker 2: a couple of years in development. I say A two

718
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 2: is kind of a better because I could get it harder, sharper,

719
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: retain the edge better anyway, and that you know, I

720
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 2: process it like you would a high end knife blade.

721
00:36:57,560 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 2: We start with you know, steel plate, blank that out.

722
00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: We do SENC machining, multi stage grinding, honing. We do

723
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 2: a heat treat process that includes a cryogenic treatment and

724
00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,239
Speaker 2: triple tempering to just get the best possible we can

725
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 2: geek out of why do that? But you do just

726
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 2: cryogenic treatment. You make sure all the you know, it's

727
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 2: basically making sure the microstructure is perfectly you know, changed

728
00:37:28,920 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: goes from austinite to martinsite and it's a very hard

729
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 2: dense structure and to make sure it's all uniform, and

730
00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:38,160
Speaker 2: then the tempering has the toughness. Anyway, we spent a

731
00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: year just working on the heat treat once we chose

732
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 2: the steel, and so all these steps in that process,

733
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: you know, add cost versus typical blades are they're done

734
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 2: on a real real there's a reel of metal coming

735
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:53,240
Speaker 2: in one side, and you can do that when blades

736
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,479
Speaker 2: are you know, twenty thirty maybe even thirty five, forty

737
00:37:56,480 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 2: thouve thick. You can just have a roll of steel

738
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: coming into a stamping machine to where it's feeding through

739
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 2: on a strip it's stamped, and a lot of these

740
00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 2: machines they grind it right, they servent right there too.

741
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,960
Speaker 2: They stand up run through a one side grinder, you know,

742
00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: it comes off the other side of the machine. And

743
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: these parts cost. These blades cause dimes to make versus

744
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: dollars to make. So anyway, that's kind of why ours

745
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: more expensive, and that's you know, kind of explain the

746
00:38:26,320 --> 00:38:30,680
Speaker 2: blades are farls. We use a Grade five titanium for

747
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 2: our lighter heads, and that's really the best strength to

748
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:38,440
Speaker 2: weight ratio of any metal. So I think that's the

749
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,719
Speaker 2: best metal to use on a Farrell on say one

750
00:38:40,760 --> 00:38:42,439
Speaker 2: hundred grand head. We used on a summer one hundred

751
00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,840
Speaker 2: hundred twenty five grand heads when you really want the

752
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 2: best strength to weight ratio. And then as we go

753
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 2: to our heavier weights, we use a hardened steel, which

754
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 2: is you know, you can all steels aren't created equal.

755
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 2: Most steel, you know, all steel, say ferals. Our heads

756
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 2: out there are generally three oh through a two stainless,

757
00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: which is not hardened. You can harden. You can use

758
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:06,520
Speaker 2: martin ciitic steel, harden it and get strength. It's you know,

759
00:39:06,560 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 2: maybe three two to three times the strength of those

760
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 2: austinitic you know, three hundred serious steels. So we actually

761
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,480
Speaker 2: harden them and machine them in the hardened state. So

762
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,520
Speaker 2: it requires that we machine them slower. It takes longer

763
00:39:20,560 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 2: to machine and the material costs more. So that's why

764
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:25,239
Speaker 2: those costs more as well. But we can get very

765
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:29,479
Speaker 2: precise there's no distortion or discoloration from a later heat

766
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: treat and it's really it's really kind of the best

767
00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 2: way to make the parts that you can. And I'm

768
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 2: all about performance. I'm a development engineer, and I want

769
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,840
Speaker 2: to use the best process to make the best product,

770
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 2: and you know, kind of let the cost fall where

771
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:47,279
Speaker 2: they do. And that's really why why I broadhads cost

772
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:47,799
Speaker 2: quite a bit.

773
00:39:48,120 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, I'm the same way. You know

774
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 1: sometimes with our calls. You know, it's like, let's just

775
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:55,840
Speaker 1: design the best call we can and roll up the

776
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:57,879
Speaker 1: cost of goods and figure out where that thing needs

777
00:39:57,920 --> 00:39:59,920
Speaker 1: to be to be profitable, you know, and that's we

778
00:40:00,200 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: let that lead a lot of our projects. But yeah,

779
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:08,400
Speaker 1: for me, you know, and and not to over dramatize it.

780
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: But you know, we spend not trying to justify you

781
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,760
Speaker 1: just you basically gave us the reason on the price.

782
00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:16,759
Speaker 1: But for me as a user of your product, uh,

783
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,240
Speaker 1: you know, you spend all year for the most part planning, thinking,

784
00:40:21,120 --> 00:40:23,719
Speaker 1: you know, setting up for these hunts. You know, you're

785
00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:25,719
Speaker 1: you're one or two archery all counts because you're only

786
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,120
Speaker 1: you know, maybe three max. The squeezes in. You know,

787
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: you drive potentially all over the country, you drive across

788
00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 1: your state, or you drive you know, you're driving into

789
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 1: your unit and you've bought knew this or that. Like

790
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: when it comes down to it, like do I want

791
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: to risk the chance that you know, when I'm at

792
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:42,480
Speaker 1: full draw knowing you know, the last thing I want

793
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 1: to think about is if you know, this broadhead going

794
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: to perform or if I make a slightly less than

795
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:49,840
Speaker 1: perfect shot, like is it you am I still covered?

796
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:51,160
Speaker 1: Like is the broadhead going to be?

797
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 2: You know?

798
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,360
Speaker 1: And for me, it's a it's easy just to like

799
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,160
Speaker 1: a peace of mind knowing that I've got the best,

800
00:40:57,440 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: the best broadhead that I've been able to find, you know,

801
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 1: on the tip of my arrow.

802
00:41:03,080 --> 00:41:04,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good point. You know, all the all

803
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: the effort, all the work you know, to be a

804
00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:09,960
Speaker 2: bow hunter. There's there's a lot of preparation and work

805
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: that goes into into it. And when you when that

806
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 2: shot happens on that animal that walks out, and maybe

807
00:41:16,120 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: it's the biggest enemy you've seen or whatever, but when

808
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,759
Speaker 2: that animal walks out, what piece of gears matter the most? Well,

809
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: at that point, it's having good aeroflight and then having

810
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 2: your broadhead perform, you know, on impact. So it's you know,

811
00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: our heads are probably twenty bucks more per head than

812
00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 2: the things you're going to pick up at a department store.

813
00:41:35,200 --> 00:41:39,080
Speaker 2: But it's yeah, to me, it's is is worth it

814
00:41:39,120 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 2: at that moment of truth there get that animal and

815
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 2: have the best chance for success. Yeah.

816
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:47,920
Speaker 1: Well that that kind of wraps up the listener questions here.

817
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,880
Speaker 1: I appreciate everybody over is September yet sending us questions,

818
00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: and so once again you have questions of your own,

819
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: email them to us at CTD at phelpsgame Calls dot com,

820
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,440
Speaker 1: or send us a social message in we'll do our

821
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,880
Speaker 1: best to include them for me or my guests. So

822
00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:06,880
Speaker 1: now we're going to jump into kind of my discussion.

823
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 1: I wanted to have with you Bill, you know, on

824
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: cutting the distance. We're all about tips and tactics, and

825
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: I think it's important to kind of, you know, and

826
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:18,080
Speaker 1: to become successful. But I believe it's easy to kind

827
00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:22,840
Speaker 1: of roll broadheads into you know, finding success and you know,

828
00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:26,560
Speaker 1: being able to you know, technical data surrounds them, you know,

829
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: the lethality of the broadheads. And so yeah, glad, glad

830
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:31,840
Speaker 1: to have you on here. I got a few of

831
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:33,719
Speaker 1: my own, and I love when things are based on

832
00:42:34,280 --> 00:42:36,120
Speaker 1: science and data. You know, we're coming off a few

833
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 1: interviews with biologists, Like I just love being able to

834
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:40,839
Speaker 1: look at the data and and you know, figure out

835
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: does this correlate with what I've seen? Are their anomalies?

836
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 1: Are there reasons why what I've seen are different than

837
00:42:45,080 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: the data? And just like let the chips follow where

838
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: they do, and you know, go with that. But you are,

839
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: you know, similar to me. We've got the engineering side,

840
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: but then we go out and test all of our products,

841
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: and I want to see those real world results that

842
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: support back up what's found and you know, and what

843
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,120
Speaker 1: I believe what I've been able to find, and I

844
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: think you and what you're doing with Iron will broadheads

845
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: kind of you know, encapsulates that whole idea. You know,

846
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 1: design the best broadheads on paper, do a bunch of testing,

847
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,719
Speaker 1: and then go out and confirm them on animals. So yeah,

848
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:21,640
Speaker 1: I you know, gonna gonna jump into our conversation with

849
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: you here. So can we dive a little deeper into

850
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 1: your work that you're doing with the University of Colorado.

851
00:43:27,120 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: You know, I think there's a lot of just generalities

852
00:43:30,239 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: or ideas that have you know, come from many many

853
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: years of bow shop owners or in industry stuff, but

854
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 1: you're actually going back and kind of proving that or

855
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:42,160
Speaker 1: you know, coming up with data that supports that. So

856
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: give us a little bit of what you're you know

857
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: doing at the University of Colorado. You know, you've got

858
00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 1: new veins that you're looking at, new arrow setups. Kind

859
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 1: of give us the full rundown of of you know,

860
00:43:53,200 --> 00:43:55,480
Speaker 1: lab testing and new products.

861
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so to give you a little background there. You know,

862
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 2: I develop products for the companies for many years, and

863
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: I was always seeking out the best you know, engineering

864
00:44:07,840 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 2: tools really, whether it was computer modeling, instrumentation, you know,

865
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:19,239
Speaker 2: high speed camera accelerometers, just whatever kind of instrumentation, you know,

866
00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,160
Speaker 2: analysis tools, really kind of the best engineering tools and

867
00:44:22,239 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 2: applying them to improve products. You know, engineering is really

868
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: applying science to you know, solve problems or develop better products.

869
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: But at the companies I work for, I always you know,

870
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:41,480
Speaker 2: really drove highest level engineering improvements. And through years of

871
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 2: doing that, I was leading engineering teams and you know

872
00:44:45,840 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: really kind of mentoring and driving other people to do

873
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 2: the you know, apply science, do the analysis, but then

874
00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:58,880
Speaker 2: also do some lab testing to kind of prove that

875
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 2: you know, computer mo model is accurate and this what

876
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:05,040
Speaker 2: you know, the annalys shows will be an improvement actually

877
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,560
Speaker 2: does make an improvement. And then in the final you know,

878
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:11,600
Speaker 2: final assembly testing, you know, prove out that you did

879
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 2: make make it better. And so you know, I was involved,

880
00:45:15,080 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: you know, in different companies doing that. And then companies

881
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 2: I worked for started sponsoring university projects and then I

882
00:45:21,160 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 2: was placed as kind of the company you know, industry

883
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: client over those projects. And then about eight years ago,

884
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:31,400
Speaker 2: the university asked me to be one of the faculty directors.

885
00:45:31,400 --> 00:45:34,880
Speaker 2: So I became adjoint instructor of Mechanical Engineering and it

886
00:45:34,920 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: was one of the faculty directors for the Senior Design

887
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 2: Project for Mechanical Engineering and that's a year long project

888
00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:45,640
Speaker 2: where seniors mechanical engineering are required to do it, but

889
00:45:45,680 --> 00:45:49,439
Speaker 2: they take an industry project and spend the year doing

890
00:45:50,040 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: you know, analysis, design, analysis, prototyping, testing, you know, iterating,

891
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,879
Speaker 2: bring it, bring it to manufacturing typically. So I've been

892
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,200
Speaker 2: you know, teaching students kind of best practices for mechanical

893
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 2: engineering and trying trying to kind of bridge that gap

894
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: between Okay, you have all the school knowledge and you

895
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 2: know all the tests, you've taken, all the information is there.

896
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:15,840
Speaker 2: Now how do you solve the problem and you have

897
00:46:15,920 --> 00:46:18,600
Speaker 2: all the information that's generally what happens in the university

898
00:46:18,680 --> 00:46:21,279
Speaker 2: tests to where you get in the real world and

899
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,279
Speaker 2: develop a project and all the information isn't given to you.

900
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: You have to figure out what is a science here,

901
00:46:27,000 --> 00:46:29,759
Speaker 2: what is a physics? How can I apply it? How

902
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: can I analyze it? Test it? So, you know, I've

903
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,479
Speaker 2: been teaching students to do that, and then this past year,

904
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:40,439
Speaker 2: I finally I got approval from the university to both

905
00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,919
Speaker 2: direct and sponsored projects. So iron Wellfater is just sponsoring

906
00:46:43,960 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 2: a sponsored project on improved aero van design for bow hunting,

907
00:46:49,640 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 2: you know, with fixed play broad hits on the front.

908
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 2: So it's been a great project. You know. It was

909
00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 2: five seniors in mechanical engineering that had no background in

910
00:46:59,040 --> 00:47:01,480
Speaker 2: you know, archery or hunting, which I kind of like

911
00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:05,560
Speaker 2: they come into it with with no you know, preconceived

912
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:10,439
Speaker 2: ideas of what works or doesn't work. They're just using designing, analyzing,

913
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: collecting data and really kind of making day in the

914
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:18,799
Speaker 2: driven you know, decisions or showing the results based on that.

915
00:47:19,760 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 2: So this past year we tested six of what I

916
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:27,440
Speaker 2: considered kind of the top hunting veins in the industry.

917
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:31,879
Speaker 2: Did you know a CAD model of those at a

918
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 2: three degree here local on the arrow with the ironld

919
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:38,640
Speaker 2: broad heads on the front. Did a fluidynamic model, so

920
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,719
Speaker 2: it's really very sophisticated. One has you know, airflow gone

921
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 2: over the arrow even as it's rotating through the air.

922
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:49,919
Speaker 2: We were able to model that we're looking at, We're

923
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:56,120
Speaker 2: looking at really accuracy, stability, wind drift, drag and sound

924
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,840
Speaker 2: from that. So we can we can we can model

925
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:02,200
Speaker 2: all that here. We can and if I said, spin

926
00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:03,960
Speaker 2: up as well, so we can kind of model that

927
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:07,040
Speaker 2: how these different veins will do a better job of

928
00:48:07,040 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 2: that than the other. You know, we tip, we can

929
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,359
Speaker 2: tip the angle let's say five degrees to the wind,

930
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 2: like as if it's coming out of your bow and

931
00:48:12,960 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 2: your bos little untuned, and we can see what is

932
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: the restoring torque that quickly brings that arrow back back

933
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: on track to get it straight at the target. And

934
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 2: so we studied six of the veins in the industry

935
00:48:26,840 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 2: and then studied some different prototype veins. But we took

936
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 2: it from the analytical computer modeling to then also to

937
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: do the empirical testing, the actual testing with a shooting

938
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,399
Speaker 2: machine using a high speed camera to kind of vary

939
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: to verify the spin up and then the stabilizing and

940
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 2: then the max and then the max rotation. We used

941
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,879
Speaker 2: lab radar to look at the velocity from the bow

942
00:48:54,000 --> 00:48:56,280
Speaker 2: to the target to verify the drag and the drop

943
00:48:56,360 --> 00:49:00,399
Speaker 2: that we calculated through the model. We had this very

944
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 2: sophisticated sound recording system placed out there that was recording

945
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: the sound with these omnidirectional microphones, and then we analyze

946
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,640
Speaker 2: that through through Matt Labs, so we could look at

947
00:49:10,880 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: the frequency content and we looked at you know, the

948
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:17,279
Speaker 2: frequency kind of peak range for humans, which I think

949
00:49:17,440 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 2: was two to four killer herds and then also animals

950
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: which I believe was four to eight kill herts. So

951
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,640
Speaker 2: we said, okay, is this arrow sound you know, errow

952
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,040
Speaker 2: broadhead vein combination sound loud to a person, and also

953
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:32,080
Speaker 2: does it sound loud to an animal? Is it more

954
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: likely to make an animal react or not? So we

955
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 2: took all that data. We just kind of finished up

956
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 2: the project. We're planning to put out some kind of

957
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:44,360
Speaker 2: white papers to summarize that. But that's that's kind of

958
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 2: just the overview of the project. And really the reason

959
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:51,200
Speaker 2: I wanted to sponsor that is I feel like with

960
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,319
Speaker 2: the broadhead development, I have a broadhead now that is

961
00:49:54,960 --> 00:49:58,280
Speaker 2: you know, penetrating really well through high bone. It's getting

962
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 2: in that pass through. And some people, a lot of people,

963
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say a lot, but some people their problem

964
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 2: with shooting fixed plate heads is that they struggle to

965
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 2: get good aeroflight with fixed blade heads. So I wanted

966
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 2: to dig more into the science there and kind of

967
00:50:14,880 --> 00:50:17,879
Speaker 2: be able to show people, hey, you can definitely get

968
00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 2: create long ra in flight with fixed plate heads. You

969
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,400
Speaker 2: just need to do a few things here, you know,

970
00:50:23,960 --> 00:50:27,600
Speaker 2: get some rotationary arrow tunebo the right veins on the

971
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 2: back and you're good.

972
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,240
Speaker 1: Gotcha? Yeah, I like it and see what I'm excited

973
00:50:33,280 --> 00:50:34,960
Speaker 1: to see what comes out on that white paper and

974
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:38,479
Speaker 1: if it changes anything that we we think is right

975
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:56,680
Speaker 1: as of right now. My next question for you is

976
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 1: what's your opinion on FOC. Did we did the pendulum

977
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:05,239
Speaker 1: swing too far? Doesn't matter? You know, we we've went

978
00:51:05,320 --> 00:51:07,719
Speaker 1: to this, you know, all your weight in the first

979
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:09,920
Speaker 1: two inches, Like, just give me your take on that

980
00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: and what you've found or what your your opinion is

981
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:15,640
Speaker 1: on if there's a compromise where where we don't have

982
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: to chase these huge FOC numbers.

983
00:51:18,920 --> 00:51:21,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think there's any I don't think there's

984
00:51:21,280 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: any science that would show that extreme FOC would would

985
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 2: be a significant increase in penetration. If you I mean

986
00:51:30,600 --> 00:51:33,839
Speaker 2: the science and the math, the physics and the math

987
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 2: there is that mass is that momentum is going to

988
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 2: equal force time's time change of momentum of legal force

989
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 2: times time. Momentum is a is a vector quantity, so

990
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 2: as a direction and momentum is mass times velocity. So

991
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 2: really the way to to maximize your penetration is to

992
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 2: maximize that mass times velocity industry line, so having good

993
00:52:02,280 --> 00:52:04,920
Speaker 2: aerowflight so that your arrow is going straight as it

994
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 2: impacts the animal, and then you know have that increased

995
00:52:10,360 --> 00:52:14,240
Speaker 2: mass and or velocity can give you that totally increased

996
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: mass times totally increased momentum at impact. It's going to

997
00:52:19,160 --> 00:52:24,720
Speaker 2: translate into how much force can that really aerosystem apply

998
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: as it cuts through and for how long? So it's

999
00:52:28,080 --> 00:52:32,400
Speaker 2: that product enforced time's time. So there's no FOC that

1000
00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 2: in the math of the physics. There there's no center

1001
00:52:35,200 --> 00:52:39,680
Speaker 2: of mass in that calculation. I think it only comes

1002
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,480
Speaker 2: into effect if it's somehow changing how how well your

1003
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,400
Speaker 2: arrow is flying or what it's doing at impact. So

1004
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: I think the advantages with FOC the improved stability. As

1005
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 2: you move your center mass a bit forward, you're going

1006
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 2: to prove your stability. But I personally don't go to

1007
00:52:59,400 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 2: any extreme tames. I think, say twelve to fifteen sixteen

1008
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: percent is great. I've seen excellent penetration. My aero setups

1009
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:12,279
Speaker 2: are usually in that twelve to fifteen percent range, and

1010
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:14,319
Speaker 2: I can tell you throwing my testing with the right

1011
00:53:14,360 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 2: broadhead on the front, you have excellent penetration. So I

1012
00:53:18,920 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 2: don't see a need for this extremefoc. The physics doesn't

1013
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:28,160
Speaker 2: really justify that, you know, I think that doctor ed

1014
00:53:28,160 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 2: Ashby's testing I've talked to him about this. He saw

1015
00:53:31,800 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 2: now going from a nineteen to twenty two percent FOC,

1016
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 2: saw thirty percent improvement and penetration. I really think that's

1017
00:53:39,719 --> 00:53:42,959
Speaker 2: because he's shooting a longbow at close range and there's

1018
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 2: a lot of flexing in that row, and it probably

1019
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: improved his aeroflight or how straight that arrow was on impact,

1020
00:53:51,680 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 2: and that was probably majority of the factor for penetration.

1021
00:53:54,640 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 2: I think it's it's unfortunate. I think a lot of

1022
00:53:57,000 --> 00:54:00,480
Speaker 2: people have tried to apply that to modern compound bows,

1023
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 2: and the negative that they do is to try and

1024
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:07,239
Speaker 2: get extreme foc. They're often underspined, but a lot of

1025
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: mass out in front, and you don't have the arrow

1026
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:13,800
Speaker 2: stiffness to support it. You get massive flexing back and forth.

1027
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:15,960
Speaker 2: And I see this on YouTube videos of people that

1028
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:20,759
Speaker 2: are extreme foc, you know, advocates. You can see in

1029
00:54:20,840 --> 00:54:24,720
Speaker 2: their aerowflight it's that thing's flexing back and forth like crazy.

1030
00:54:24,920 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 2: And in my arrow setups, I may be getting like

1031
00:54:27,800 --> 00:54:30,160
Speaker 2: a half inch a vertical flex of the arrow, and

1032
00:54:30,200 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 2: then it's it's almost going perfectly straight, you know. Ten

1033
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 2: feet later, I don't. I don't have that massive flexing

1034
00:54:37,239 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 2: back and forth all the way to the target that's

1035
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 2: going to reduce penetration because of a mentum. It's not

1036
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:43,960
Speaker 2: in a straight line anymore.

1037
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, definite, No, I'm in that same camp. And you know,

1038
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: and then you're like, all right, well mass is included,

1039
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 1: so do I just go to a heavy arrow? But

1040
00:54:50,719 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: then you're once again, if you're chasing heavy arrow and

1041
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: foc you end up with an underspined arrow or you

1042
00:54:56,640 --> 00:54:58,960
Speaker 1: end up with you know, yeah, you end up with

1043
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: a heavy weight. But now you're you've just given up velocity,

1044
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 1: which all calculates back in the you know, it's really

1045
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:07,319
Speaker 1: just a trade off, and that's where you look at it.

1046
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,160
Speaker 1: And then you also factor in what you saw from

1047
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: you know, maybe some of the female bow hunters you've

1048
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,320
Speaker 1: hunted with that got perfect pass through? Is it fifty

1049
00:55:15,360 --> 00:55:17,879
Speaker 1: two you know pounds in a four hundred and twenty

1050
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: grain arrow or whatever it is, And you're like, well,

1051
00:55:20,480 --> 00:55:22,320
Speaker 1: what am I doing as a as a guy shooting

1052
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 1: a you know, a seventy two pound bow in full

1053
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 1: length arrows five hundred and sixty grain. It's like does

1054
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 1: it does it all matter? Or do we just need

1055
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:31,880
Speaker 1: to be able to shoot our bows better, you know,

1056
00:55:31,920 --> 00:55:33,759
Speaker 1: and it hit the animal right where we want. And

1057
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:36,920
Speaker 1: you know, I build my arrows somewhat backwards and I

1058
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:40,319
Speaker 1: fall into that same twelve to fifteen percent foc like

1059
00:55:40,360 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: you do, just kind of naturally. I've got a fairly

1060
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 1: long draw. I shoot full length thirty two inch arrows,

1061
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 1: and then I just kind of keep stuff and weight

1062
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: in the front until I get my bow to what

1063
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:53,759
Speaker 1: it says on paper is going to shoot about two

1064
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: hundred and eighty to two hundred and eighty five feet

1065
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,840
Speaker 1: per second, and just confirm that I'm spined right, and

1066
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:01,200
Speaker 1: then I move on. You know, I'm not chasing a weight.

1067
00:56:01,280 --> 00:56:03,560
Speaker 1: I'm chasing more of a speed. What does that weight

1068
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: and that tip weight you got to do? And then

1069
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,120
Speaker 1: make sure my spine is still, you know, is correct,

1070
00:56:08,120 --> 00:56:10,560
Speaker 1: and I'm not going to be you know, under overspined

1071
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: and just kind of leave it there, like I build

1072
00:56:13,239 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: backwards to a speed that I like to shoot, and

1073
00:56:17,040 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 1: don't chase foc or a crazy weighted arrow, you know,

1074
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: just just by my size, I end up with a

1075
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: five hundred and fifty to five hundred and sixty grein arrow,

1076
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:26,560
Speaker 1: but you know, it's it's just because of the thirty

1077
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,799
Speaker 1: two inch draw length and heavy arrows.

1078
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:31,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely a trade up there as you increase

1079
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,960
Speaker 2: the mass or trajectory drops off, and so people ask me,

1080
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,560
Speaker 2: you know, what what weight should I go with to

1081
00:56:38,680 --> 00:56:43,720
Speaker 2: maximize penetration. Well, I think you do continue to see

1082
00:56:43,800 --> 00:56:49,400
Speaker 2: improvements with penetration with mass especially, And you know, the

1083
00:56:49,440 --> 00:56:51,680
Speaker 2: technical reason for this, I think is because as an

1084
00:56:51,719 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 2: animal tissue and everything probably asks the like visco elastic material,

1085
00:56:56,719 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 2: where it's like, as you increase that shear rate, it

1086
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:04,560
Speaker 2: takes more four So a light fast arrow is going

1087
00:57:04,600 --> 00:57:08,520
Speaker 2: to take more force to go through at that higher speed,

1088
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:10,879
Speaker 2: and it's going to slow down easier because there's light

1089
00:57:11,440 --> 00:57:16,439
Speaker 2: versus versus a heavier arrow, and so but it's it's

1090
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 2: not a huge of a factor. So I think I

1091
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 2: kind of calculated in my setup. I thought one hundred grains, say,

1092
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: going from four to fifty to five point fifty might

1093
00:57:25,160 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 2: be a maybe a ten percent improvement and penetration maybe

1094
00:57:28,880 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 2: not quite that much really, but but then there's a

1095
00:57:32,800 --> 00:57:35,680
Speaker 2: drop off in trajectory as well, and that's why I'm

1096
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:39,080
Speaker 2: typically end up around five hundred grains. But It's why

1097
00:57:39,120 --> 00:57:42,360
Speaker 2: I'm not going six hundred plus because I just get

1098
00:57:42,400 --> 00:57:45,120
Speaker 2: way too much drop off in the trajectory. And having

1099
00:57:45,120 --> 00:57:48,200
Speaker 2: good arrow flight and hitting where you're aiming are really

1100
00:57:48,280 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 2: number one for sure. As far as where to put

1101
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:53,920
Speaker 2: the weight, yeah, upfront's better than putting it. You don't

1102
00:57:54,000 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 2: really want to put it at the back. And upfront's

1103
00:57:57,400 --> 00:57:59,720
Speaker 2: better than having just a heavy arrow with a light

1104
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 2: light head up front. You know, I wouldn't go with

1105
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 2: the heavy arrow and then I have only have one

1106
00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 2: hundred grains or one one sixteen up front, like some

1107
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:09,720
Speaker 2: people will do with just an aluminum insert in a

1108
00:58:09,880 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: hundred grade head, and then your FOC's down at ten

1109
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 2: percent or below, I think, I think, say, you know,

1110
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 2: the recommendations out there in the industry are maybe ten

1111
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,080
Speaker 2: to twelve percent for target setups and like tell to

1112
00:58:23,080 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 2: fourteen for hunting aeroseeps. I think that's what like Easton

1113
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:29,280
Speaker 2: has said before, I don't like going all the way

1114
00:58:29,280 --> 00:58:32,080
Speaker 2: down to ten or below. You add the possibility for

1115
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 2: instability you to fix it light had So that's really

1116
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 2: the reason for having some mass up front and having

1117
00:58:38,200 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 2: a decent FOC. But there's no need to go extreme

1118
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,680
Speaker 2: in my opinion, it's more likely to hurt aeroflight in trajectory.

1119
00:58:46,080 --> 00:58:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, this kind of segue kind of plays offul. We're

1120
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 1: just talking about do you have much research on, you know,

1121
00:58:54,160 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 1: the cutting diameter in relation to penetration. And one thing

1122
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: I've always did which surprises some people, I just shoot

1123
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:04,080
Speaker 1: a hundred grain solid head. I want the smallest cutting

1124
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 1: diameter as possible. Now, I want that broadhead to be

1125
00:59:06,200 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 1: sharp and do all the other things, but I've always

1126
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,880
Speaker 1: in my head just added weight to my insert or

1127
00:59:11,880 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 1: whatnot because I wanted the ultimate penetration. As I mentioned earlier,

1128
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: I've always been in that camp that I want a

1129
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 1: hole on both sides. I also, if I do encounterbone,

1130
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: I've always thought that a one inch cutting diameter is

1131
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,760
Speaker 1: easier to push you that bone than an echine, you know,

1132
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 1: an eighth or an inch and a quarter. Do you

1133
00:59:27,800 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 1: have any data on cutting diameter in relation to penetration

1134
00:59:31,520 --> 00:59:36,120
Speaker 1: And if my thought process is right or if it's incorrect.

1135
00:59:36,280 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 2: Well, I totally agree with you that getting that exit

1136
00:59:38,640 --> 00:59:41,320
Speaker 2: holes is important, and you know, cutting all the way

1137
00:59:41,320 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 2: through the exit hole. And I like to shoot our

1138
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 2: standard with heads on ELK they have like an inch

1139
00:59:48,560 --> 00:59:51,640
Speaker 2: and sixteenth main blade three quarter inch pleter. It's one

1140
00:59:51,640 --> 00:59:54,280
Speaker 2: point eight inches total cut, but it's relatively compact and

1141
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 2: FLI as well at long range, and that's that's generally

1142
00:59:57,320 --> 01:00:01,439
Speaker 2: my elk head. And you know, I'm zipping right through

1143
01:00:01,480 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 2: that it takes such low force to cut through with

1144
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,600
Speaker 2: their heads that often they're going twenty yards and looking

1145
01:00:07,600 --> 01:00:10,320
Speaker 2: around or sometimes not even moving. You know, it's zipping through,

1146
01:00:10,560 --> 01:00:13,560
Speaker 2: and they're dying quickly if with the right shot placement.

1147
01:00:13,680 --> 01:00:16,040
Speaker 2: So I don't really see a need to go with

1148
01:00:16,120 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: bigger heads. And for years I kind of fought it,

1149
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,680
Speaker 2: and then we had enough people that really just wanted

1150
01:00:21,160 --> 01:00:24,280
Speaker 2: a wider head for white tails, bears, things where the

1151
01:00:24,280 --> 01:00:29,400
Speaker 2: shots are closer and long range flight isn't so important,

1152
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,400
Speaker 2: and just to get a bigger hole. When I first

1153
01:00:33,240 --> 01:00:35,680
Speaker 2: started making those and doing all the lab testing, I

1154
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:39,040
Speaker 2: expected to see a higher quite a bit higher force

1155
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,400
Speaker 2: to penetrate with the wider blades, and I was a

1156
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:46,320
Speaker 2: bit surprised that I don't measure much difference, and it's

1157
01:00:46,360 --> 01:00:48,800
Speaker 2: really kind of helped reinforce. What I learned prior is

1158
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:53,280
Speaker 2: that sharpness and edge retension are huge factors in the force.

1159
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,400
Speaker 2: It takes to penetrate, especially in high and you know,

1160
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:59,920
Speaker 2: muscle and tissue, but it seems to be in scoplics

1161
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 2: gapula as well. Now I might say, if you know, bigger,

1162
01:01:04,040 --> 01:01:06,919
Speaker 2: heavier bone I do, you probably gonna have less force

1163
01:01:07,000 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 2: to cut through Without my head, it's not quite so wide.

1164
01:01:09,280 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 2: But if I just measure the force to go through,

1165
01:01:11,400 --> 01:01:15,120
Speaker 2: see it through say hide muscle and like thin part

1166
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 2: of scapula. Man, I have a hard time measuring a

1167
01:01:17,880 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 2: difference between our standard head and our wide which is

1168
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 2: inch and three. It's wide main blade three quarter inch

1169
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,880
Speaker 2: plater for two hundred eighth inch total cut. So I've

1170
01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:30,800
Speaker 2: kind of changed my thinking a little bit, and I

1171
01:01:30,840 --> 01:01:34,160
Speaker 2: don't see any problem with using that head on you know,

1172
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 2: deer and elk. I use it a lot, but I

1173
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,360
Speaker 2: also start using it on elk when I have a

1174
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 2: setup where it might be over water or I know

1175
01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,960
Speaker 2: the shot is going to be relatively close. It penetrates,

1176
01:01:44,040 --> 01:01:45,600
Speaker 2: you know. I put one through a bowl last year,

1177
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:49,880
Speaker 2: exited the opposite side shoulder bone, and then buried into

1178
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:51,960
Speaker 2: a log eight inches on the other side of the elk.

1179
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 2: So even though it's wide, it went through. You know,

1180
01:01:54,720 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 2: it wasn't the thin part, it wasn't the knuckle. It

1181
01:01:56,880 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 2: was kind of in between part of the shoulder bone.

1182
01:01:59,400 --> 01:02:01,520
Speaker 2: But it really slow down. I think once the tip

1183
01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:06,320
Speaker 2: starts cutting away and maybe I'm on bone split it's

1184
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,160
Speaker 2: kind of split that far ready and maybe on the

1185
01:02:08,240 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 2: highe and once you start cutting it doesn't take that

1186
01:02:10,280 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 2: much to keep cutting it a little wider. But I

1187
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:15,880
Speaker 2: do think in general in the industry, if you look

1188
01:02:15,880 --> 01:02:19,080
Speaker 2: at broadheads beyond ours, you know, the more cutting, the

1189
01:02:19,160 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 2: wider cutting you do, takes more force, it is probably

1190
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,280
Speaker 2: going to give you less penetration in general.

1191
01:02:24,640 --> 01:02:27,360
Speaker 1: Gotcha, Yeah, that's okay, perfect, That's kind of what I thought.

1192
01:02:27,360 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 1: But it's that it's that idea that it's gonna in

1193
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:31,800
Speaker 1: my head it's gonna work if I hit it in

1194
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:34,480
Speaker 1: the right spot and don't go through heavy bone. The

1195
01:02:34,800 --> 01:02:36,800
Speaker 1: one inch is still or the one in sixteenth is

1196
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:39,320
Speaker 1: still going to do its job. But for the the

1197
01:02:39,400 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: you know, and I've went through you know, right through

1198
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: the middle of the scapula before and broke through. But

1199
01:02:44,200 --> 01:02:46,880
Speaker 1: it's that instance I maybe have to go through there

1200
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 1: or I miss just a little bit and go through there.

1201
01:02:50,400 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 1: I feel like it just gives me a little more

1202
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:54,400
Speaker 1: margin of error, but you know, as you're saying, maybe

1203
01:02:54,520 --> 01:02:56,360
Speaker 1: maybe not as much as we thought due to the

1204
01:02:56,400 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, the construction of the tip and how everything's

1205
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,160
Speaker 1: working on those iron wheels.

1206
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. One thing I'd point out too, is it our

1207
01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:05,960
Speaker 2: newest head now is a is a wide, single bebble

1208
01:03:06,360 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 2: head that we've had a lot of people asking us for.

1209
01:03:09,000 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 2: I've been testing that over last year, and just a

1210
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 2: few weeks ago I was in Texas hunting hogs with it,

1211
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:21,040
Speaker 2: and one hog, you know, kind of a older bore

1212
01:03:21,320 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 2: that I shot a little further forward than I intended to.

1213
01:03:24,320 --> 01:03:26,960
Speaker 2: It was a forty yard shot or some leaves covered

1214
01:03:26,960 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 2: his head and I ended up shooting too far forward.

1215
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 2: I went right to the knuckle on that hog, and

1216
01:03:31,600 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 2: that was probably two and a half inches of solid bone,

1217
01:03:34,440 --> 01:03:36,840
Speaker 2: and it was a loud crack, and I thought, oh no,

1218
01:03:37,000 --> 01:03:39,320
Speaker 2: I had something really hard. This would be a real

1219
01:03:39,400 --> 01:03:43,120
Speaker 2: test for that wider, wide single bubble that's trying to

1220
01:03:43,200 --> 01:03:46,960
Speaker 2: rotate you know, through the bone too. But it made

1221
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 2: it through the bone and got, you know, all the

1222
01:03:48,760 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 2: way through the animal. The arrow didn't completely pass through,

1223
01:03:52,800 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 2: but the broadhead made an exit on their side and

1224
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: that bone just cut clean into where you could just

1225
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:01,160
Speaker 2: kind of pull or part like a puzzle put it

1226
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:03,720
Speaker 2: back together. It was a slice holler through And so

1227
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:07,560
Speaker 2: that was with our wide and so again I feel

1228
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:09,520
Speaker 2: like it's gonna you know, you know, you need the

1229
01:04:09,600 --> 01:04:11,880
Speaker 2: right steal, the right hardness, strength and everything to be

1230
01:04:11,920 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 2: able to cut through that bone. But it was good

1231
01:04:14,720 --> 01:04:16,520
Speaker 2: to see that even with the wide, we went through

1232
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:18,480
Speaker 2: probably the thickest bone you're going to see on a

1233
01:04:18,920 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 2: on an animal in North America.

1234
01:04:22,040 --> 01:04:24,600
Speaker 1: Gotcha. Yeah, I had a question here coming up to

1235
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:26,720
Speaker 1: that would have been a great segue you know, single

1236
01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:29,840
Speaker 1: bebble versus double bevel. You know, we kind of exhausted

1237
01:04:29,840 --> 01:04:34,160
Speaker 1: that on the on the listener questions, but is are

1238
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:38,240
Speaker 1: are you seeing the ability this is my last question

1239
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:44,000
Speaker 1: on single go once again bone? Are you seeing a difference.

1240
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:46,160
Speaker 1: Does that single bevel just have the ability to kind

1241
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:48,520
Speaker 1: of torque its way through and rotate its way through

1242
01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:51,880
Speaker 1: bone better than double bevel or is that tonnel point

1243
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:55,080
Speaker 1: on the double bevel able to break through bone similar

1244
01:04:55,240 --> 01:04:56,919
Speaker 1: or is there an advantage of one to the other.

1245
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, good, great quote. And you know, over many years

1246
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:05,680
Speaker 2: of testing, I've kind of struggled to find a difference

1247
01:05:05,720 --> 01:05:09,960
Speaker 2: for bone splitting ability. I know that that was It's

1248
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 2: set out there a lot that the single bevels rotate

1249
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 2: in pop bone apart. I've talked to doctor Ashby directly

1250
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:19,000
Speaker 2: about that and how my results were a bit different.

1251
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:21,440
Speaker 2: And you know, he was using a very long, like

1252
01:05:21,480 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 2: three to one ratio head. He had a very slow,

1253
01:05:24,360 --> 01:05:27,720
Speaker 2: longbo setup, and he was saying where a double bebble

1254
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:32,600
Speaker 2: could kind of just kind of wedge wedge into that

1255
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:37,919
Speaker 2: bone and take more force to penetrate versus that single level.

1256
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 2: As it started rotating, it was kind of popping bone

1257
01:05:40,960 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 2: and reducing the force for him to penetrate. It was

1258
01:05:43,160 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 2: an improvement, and I think we've I've talked to this

1259
01:05:48,320 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 2: with him a number of times now, and I feel

1260
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:53,400
Speaker 2: like with my set up being a modern compound bow,

1261
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,560
Speaker 2: I had so much more energy that when the tip

1262
01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 2: of in our tanto tip shape, when that enters the

1263
01:05:58,000 --> 01:06:01,720
Speaker 2: bone starts piercing that bone, it's popping it apart. It's

1264
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 2: cutting it apart very quickly, you know, and doing a

1265
01:06:06,640 --> 01:06:09,280
Speaker 2: great job penetrating in that single blevel as it's cutting

1266
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: in and popping it apart. You know, it's hard for

1267
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,920
Speaker 2: me to see a difference in in that at least

1268
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,000
Speaker 2: with my setup and my my levels of energy, it

1269
01:06:18,080 --> 01:06:20,120
Speaker 2: might be more of a factor with a low you know,

1270
01:06:20,200 --> 01:06:24,600
Speaker 2: lower energy set up, thicker longer, you know, thicker bones.

1271
01:06:24,680 --> 01:06:27,520
Speaker 2: But I'm generally not seeing it. I'm popping through. You know,

1272
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,920
Speaker 2: I do a lot of testing on you know, cattle femurs,

1273
01:06:30,960 --> 01:06:33,000
Speaker 2: things like that, and I'm seeing them both are popping

1274
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:34,880
Speaker 2: through with no problem.

1275
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,640
Speaker 1: Gotcha. So we're gonna this will be my last question

1276
01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 1: for you. Kind of rolled it up a little bit,

1277
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 1: you know, for ELK when you're when you're you know,

1278
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:44,400
Speaker 1: in close proximity. But you know, we got a lot

1279
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:47,400
Speaker 1: of white tail hunters out there, you know, so for

1280
01:06:47,400 --> 01:06:49,720
Speaker 1: for setting up for ELK, what would you recommend the

1281
01:06:49,720 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 1: best broadhead for white tail hunters, you know, to be

1282
01:06:53,400 --> 01:06:55,160
Speaker 1: you know, out of a tree stand if that changes

1283
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:57,680
Speaker 1: angles and all of that. Do you have a recommendation

1284
01:06:57,720 --> 01:07:00,880
Speaker 1: for that or is it just typically you're wider wider angles.

1285
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I've shot I've shot all of our

1286
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,919
Speaker 2: broad heads on quite a few white tails at this point,

1287
01:07:07,000 --> 01:07:10,320
Speaker 2: and I could say that, you know, they they all

1288
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:12,880
Speaker 2: do a good job. They all you know, zip through

1289
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:17,760
Speaker 2: quickly cut through bones, open up shot angles and opportunities there.

1290
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 2: That's really kind of what I tell people that you know,

1291
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 2: might shoot mechanical or want to know, what, how is

1292
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 2: our head better than a mechanical at a white tail,

1293
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:31,960
Speaker 2: It's generally tell them it's it's opening up shot angles.

1294
01:07:32,080 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 2: And you know, if you shoot a mechanical, hit them

1295
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:37,880
Speaker 2: where they're soft, and you're probably fine. But with ours,

1296
01:07:37,920 --> 01:07:40,600
Speaker 2: if you know that animal ducts and turns into it,

1297
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 2: and you ad they go through the shoulder blade, even

1298
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:45,880
Speaker 2: the thickest part of the shoulder bone, it's going to

1299
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 2: penetrate and it's it's going to get you through the

1300
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 2: vitals or if it's a downward shot through the spine.

1301
01:07:51,600 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 2: And really has to say that about any of our

1302
01:07:54,080 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 2: heads that we make, they're all going to be able

1303
01:07:57,000 --> 01:08:01,640
Speaker 2: to make those shots. I'm generally personally using our wides

1304
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 2: now more on white tails. It's just that the shots

1305
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:10,000
Speaker 2: are you know, typically twenty to thirty yards, rarely are

1306
01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 2: they over forty in a white tail woods. And so

1307
01:08:13,880 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 2: I know, I know our wide are going to penetrate, great,

1308
01:08:16,320 --> 01:08:18,960
Speaker 2: why not get a little bigger houle if there's a

1309
01:08:19,000 --> 01:08:21,800
Speaker 2: more marginal shot let's say you end up hitting you know,

1310
01:08:21,840 --> 01:08:26,080
Speaker 2: one long liver guts. I've done that a number of times.

1311
01:08:26,080 --> 01:08:28,679
Speaker 2: And with our wide, our wide belvel with that twoe

1312
01:08:28,720 --> 01:08:30,880
Speaker 2: and eight inch total cut between the main blade and

1313
01:08:30,880 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 2: the bleeder, you know, often they're going maybe sixty seventy

1314
01:08:34,320 --> 01:08:39,360
Speaker 2: yards and dying even with a single long liver shot.

1315
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:42,200
Speaker 2: It's just doing enough trauma of it. They're going down quickly.

1316
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:44,800
Speaker 2: So that's kind of the advantage of why shoot Maybe

1317
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:49,960
Speaker 2: a wide over smaller one is just more you know,

1318
01:08:50,040 --> 01:08:54,640
Speaker 2: more bleeding, quicker potentially quicker kills. So that's why I

1319
01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 2: generally recommend on white tails, our wide series, and that's

1320
01:08:57,280 --> 01:09:00,280
Speaker 2: what I generally recommend on bears as well, which are

1321
01:09:00,320 --> 01:09:05,360
Speaker 2: similar culture shots and and yeah, and bears, especially with

1322
01:09:05,400 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 2: all that hair, it's important to get an exit hole there.

1323
01:09:08,439 --> 01:09:12,240
Speaker 2: That's talking to the outfitter again. In Canada a few

1324
01:09:12,280 --> 01:09:14,519
Speaker 2: weeks back, a lot of guys are coming up their

1325
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:18,280
Speaker 2: shooting mechanicals and if they're if they're a little bit

1326
01:09:18,320 --> 01:09:20,639
Speaker 2: quartered away and hitting the oppositized shoulder, they're not getting

1327
01:09:20,640 --> 01:09:22,599
Speaker 2: passed through and then they got a high entrance hole,

1328
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:25,639
Speaker 2: no exit hole. And on a bear, that's that means

1329
01:09:25,680 --> 01:09:28,920
Speaker 2: no blood, no blood trail because it just soaks up

1330
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 2: that that blood so much. So. Yeah, white sails bears.

1331
01:09:33,040 --> 01:09:36,599
Speaker 2: I I generally recommend our wide heads for those shots.

1332
01:09:36,840 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 1: Got you? Thanks for that, Bill, Tell everybody how they

1333
01:09:40,120 --> 01:09:43,080
Speaker 1: can follow, follow along and you follow the company on

1334
01:09:43,400 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 1: social media, check out more and if there's anything else

1335
01:09:45,560 --> 01:09:47,679
Speaker 1: you'd like to throw in that we didn't cover here,

1336
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:49,719
Speaker 1: feel free to do that as well.

1337
01:09:51,120 --> 01:09:54,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, our website is iron Well Outfitters. We're on you know, Instagram,

1338
01:09:55,040 --> 01:09:58,120
Speaker 2: Facebook as iron Welfare is. Also we're we have a

1339
01:09:58,160 --> 01:10:02,639
Speaker 2: YouTube channel, it's also Ironwall Outfitters. And yeah, I'm committed

1340
01:10:02,680 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 2: to uh improving you know, boon hunting, applying science to

1341
01:10:07,360 --> 01:10:12,839
Speaker 2: make better products. We we make broadheads. You're currently working

1342
01:10:12,840 --> 01:10:17,320
Speaker 2: on making better arrows. We've started through the university study

1343
01:10:17,400 --> 01:10:20,439
Speaker 2: we we came up with. We found the best thing

1344
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:24,360
Speaker 2: from the study was this hybrid hunter vein which is

1345
01:10:24,439 --> 01:10:27,519
Speaker 2: the Max Huino profile and a new hybrid material that

1346
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:30,960
Speaker 2: we had a make for us and worked with east

1347
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 2: End to machine flesh is at three degree helical. So

1348
01:10:35,080 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 2: that all the people ask that ask me, you know

1349
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:39,720
Speaker 2: what aero set up should I used to with your

1350
01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:42,200
Speaker 2: broad heads. I can just say, hey, the one we

1351
01:10:42,240 --> 01:10:44,640
Speaker 2: sell right now kind of did the best overall in

1352
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:48,479
Speaker 2: the study. And you know, we know this is going

1353
01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:50,760
Speaker 2: to work well to make our heads fly. Well, it's

1354
01:10:50,840 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 2: been really a few you know, have a bowton, so

1355
01:10:54,160 --> 01:10:57,479
Speaker 2: your arrow's coming relatively straight off of it, you're properly spine,

1356
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:00,040
Speaker 2: and then you have enough vein on the back to

1357
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 2: you stabilize that fixed plate head on the front should

1358
01:11:04,080 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 2: have good air flight, and we have great tech support.

1359
01:11:07,080 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 2: If people are having any problems with our broad heads

1360
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:12,320
Speaker 2: in flight, we're happy to help you get that set up.

1361
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:13,599
Speaker 2: But I want to throw it out out there too

1362
01:11:13,640 --> 01:11:16,519
Speaker 2: that we're I want to help the blow hunters be

1363
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,880
Speaker 2: more successful and we're happy to help you do that.

1364
01:11:19,720 --> 01:11:21,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, thanks a lot, Bill, Thanks for jumping on.

1365
01:11:22,120 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 1: Good luck this fall. If I don't talk to you

1366
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 1: before then, and always appreciate your knowledge and perspective, you know,

1367
01:11:29,520 --> 01:11:32,320
Speaker 1: in your opinions, whatever you may throw at this, because

1368
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:34,320
Speaker 1: I know you've tested it and confirmed it, so I

1369
01:11:34,360 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 1: really appreciate having you on and take care.

1370
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:41,320
Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks, Jason. Is good talking to another engineer, and

1371
01:11:42,640 --> 01:11:44,240
Speaker 2: I know I might have got a little bit too

1372
01:11:44,240 --> 01:11:47,040
Speaker 2: into the details, so hopefully Yeah, people have some takeaways

1373
01:11:47,080 --> 01:11:48,800
Speaker 2: from it, but yeah, thanks a lot for having me on.

1374
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:50,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. Take care,